ScreenCrush: The Podcast! - LOKI Season 2 Episode 5 REVIEW, Theories, and Avengers DELETED SCENE Theory Explained!

Episode Date: November 5, 2023

ScreenCrush Rewind tackles all the movie and TV hot topics, offering reviews and analysis of Marvel, Star Wars, and everything you care about right now. Hosted by Ryan Arey, and featuring a panel of industry professionals. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I can rewrite the story. Hey, hey, welcome back Screen Crush. I'm Ryan Erie, and let's talk about episode 5 of Loki. So I want to talk about what worked and what didn't work, and later I'm going to have a conversation with Colton Ogburn and Whitney Van Lannningham about their theories on how this show is going to end. Plus, I think they cut a crucial deleted scene that I'm going to tell you about later on. But first, here's my take. This is just like the best thing that Marvel has made this year. But what about Guardians of the Galaxy 3? Oh, I mean, Guardians of the Galaxy 3 is better,

but, like, I consider that more of a James Gunn movie and not like a Marvel Studios project. This show is fully part of the Marvel Studio system. It is ingrained in the Multiverse saga. We are seeing The Origin of Kang, and it stars one of the biggest names in the MCU, Tom Hiddleston. I mean, this feels like Marvel, if you know what I mean. I mean, Marvel's always been great at getting me invested

inside characters like Happy Hogan or Jimmy Wu, and here I am, like, so invested in the journey of Mobius. This episode even teased him finally getting to ride a jet ski, which is what we all want to see. And that is why we made this brand new Mobius Jetsky shirt for sale at our merch store as screencrushmerch.com, where we design all of the shirts ourselves. Lots of you have been shopping at the store. It is the best way to support our channel, and I am so grateful to all of you. So this show is obviously very well written and incredibly well designed, like production design-wise.

But also, it has two key elements that for me make for a great show, strong character and strong theme. Like the MCU, when it's at its best, always focuses on people first. I mean, look how dynamic the characters are in this show. Think about how much Loki and Hunter B-15 have changed since the start of the series. And other characters like Mobius and Sylvie have resisted change, but now that's finally starting to catch up with them. These are people that we care about. And no matter what happens to the TVA, like I'm worried about them first.

But I also love how this show has employed this theme of loops and cycles. Like Loki and Norse mythology is defined by loops. and in the MCU, he continues to make the same mistakes over and over again. And in this episode, they tie that concept of loops directly into his character, where he finally admits the reason he acts out. I don't want to be alone. But they've also taken that theme of loops and addressed it on a large scale. There's the Oroboros loop of the TVA,

where we think that this entire series is going to lead to the beginning of the series. Like the show will end with the TVA being established, Kang in charge, and everybody's mind wiped. Hey, this weekend, I was going to sit in the window and barked. at cars. You want to come? I can't, man. I'm going to enter that knife throwing competition. You're not throwing knives. Dude, yes I do. Look, I have like real throwing knives and everything. See? Where did you get throwing knives? Well, I got them from Bespoke Post, a monthly membership club that delivers you a box of awesome every single month, and they're the sponsor of this video.

Bespoke Post brings you top shelf goods from these under the radar brands. It is free to join, and you can skip a month or quit at any time. So what is so cool about this is 90% of their products come from small brands. For instance, a while back, I got this pack called Terrible. which comes with camping gear and it came with this knife which is made by a company called bare bones right in salt lake city you can even shop that company from the bespoke post site so this is box one from this month it's called bullseye it comes to the set of three throwing knives this awesome leather sheath plus this target this is actually a new one mine is all torn up from practice so every box of awesome like this has around seventy dollars worth of goods inside of it but it costs a fraction of that value like i love bespoke post because every single month you get introduced to cool new products that i would never think to buy you on my own. There's outdoor gear, kitchen goods, clothes, even live oysters. Plus, there's barware. For instance, this is box number two, Dram, and it's my favorite of the month. It comes with these Mixology charm DOF glasses, these round ice molds. And to be honest, I've always one of one of these, and I'm so glad that I finally have one. And we have this old-fashioned mixer if you're like

one in a fancy cocktail, but you don't want to shop for all the ingredients. And it's all topped off with this field guide to whiskey. Yeah, but what if you don't like what they send you? Well, they choose the box based on a preference quiz that you fill out. And then you can preview the box of awesome before it ships so then you can either keep it swap it or skip the month at no charge guys this also makes a great gift for someone because it is so customizable and you're buying something for somebody that well they would never think to buy for themselves so to get 20% off your first box of awesome click the link in the description and enter the code screen crush 20 at checkout or go to bespokepost dot com slash screen crush 20 now back to what i was saying now so much of

the MCU feels uniform they tend to use the same previs teams the same production designers and there's also this like house style where characters will often undercut their drama with like gags and one-liners. So a lot of these TV shows and movies tend to feel kind of uniform. So where the MCU really shines is when it embraces different genres,

taking that same Marvel formula and applying it to new places. World War II films, spy thrillers, coming of age stories, and there is no other story like Loki in the entire MCU. This is a super weird sci-fi show that doesn't try to give us a gag a minute. Like this show knows what it is and it's not trying to be anything else, as opposed to other projects in Marvel that have had an identity crisis.

Well, who did you mean by that? Well, there was a recent piece and variety that we talked about in this video, which detailed the behind-the-scenes problems in the MCU, and how executives were even considering bringing back the original Six Avengers and replacing Kang with Dr. Doom. And this all happened because after the pandemic, Marvel was forced to crank out, quote, a torrent of content, which greatly weakened the brand identity.

And then there was also a piece in the Hollywood Reporter that talked about how secret. Invasion was completely re-shot and rewritten and how the creators were not even speaking to each other. Like there is a lot of drama behind the scenes of Marvel right now, but this show feels like the eye of a hurricane. Can't you see how eerily calm it is? And I think we've slowly seen the fans start to come back to Marvel. Like at first, like Loki breakdown views on every channel were super low, but now we're finally starting to top views from Secret Invasion. Like, look, I know that breakdown YouTube views are not a perfect metric for fan enthusiasm, but fans are starting to show up

for this show. And I think they're going to show up for any Marvel project that is actually worth watching. Like Marvel recklessly expanded in Phase 4 and Phase 5. But this is just like how phases 1 and 2 have their awkward missteps that everybody seems to forget about now. Like Iron Man 2, The Incredible Hulk, Thor the Dark World, Ant Man, Age of Ultron, all those movies had problems behind the scenes and on screen as Marvel expanded and tried new things. But Loki shows that when Fagie's attention is focused and when it really matters, the MCU can still produce great TV. Not that this show doesn't feature the usual Marvel chaos of last minute changes. In fact, I think episode five featured a pretty huge last minute change that has kept that episode from being truly great.

I'm really lucky to be joined by two of my favorite people. We have our very own Colton Ogburn, the guy who lives inside of our television, but he does not know it, so please don't tell him. And Whitney Van Landingham, who is host of the YouTube channel Whitney Vision and co-host of the Guardians of the Palixie podcast, which is yet to have me on as a guest and I'm still sore over it. Whitney, I want to talk to you about Loki Season 2, Episode 5, right? I am so excited. We haven't seen you. You haven't been in the show because you hate us. So tell me, what are your thoughts on this episode and of the show thus far?

Oh, my gosh. This was absolutely my favorite episode. I think even of the first and second seasons, it was so much fun. It honestly felt kind of like a Rick and Morty episode a little bit because one of the things. that I said on Pallaxi, as a joke, I accidentally predicted the storyline of this episode because I was like, wouldn't it be great if they all got sent back to their respective planets and then Loki had to hop around finding each of them and then they all had to hop around finding each other and I was very hyped on that. And then that's what happened. And I thought that that was so

genius. It was the perfect place to take the show. It was the perfect continuation of last episode's story, I was very sad when they all seemingly got blasted away. So I was very, very happy that they're all, you know, just here, back to normal, regular lives. Yeah. And of course, there's a big question of like how in the hell that happened and what in the hell is actually going on. And just a little bit, I want to get your guys's theories on that. Just to circle back in what you're saying about you're relieved, everybody's good, they're happy. You know, what is it about this season, though, that's really making it ring for you? Because it's very different from season one. Season one was like this, you know, we're under the pressure of the story.

fascist organization. We're trying to get to the man behind the curtain. This season, if I have any criticism of it, it's been that it's kind of, you're not always sure what the goals are, what people want. Yeah. Do you feel like you've got a better idea of that, like, in the penultimate episode of the season? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think that they really did a good job of like solidify, especially Loki, because he's never been able to admit that he does just want a family, whether It's, you know, he couldn't make that happen with his adoptive family in Asgard, but he was able to find a family at the TVA. And I thought that that was a really great moment of character growth for him, because I don't think that that's something that he would have ever admitted unless Sylvie was just like, drink this whiskey, tell me your secrets, and then I'm going to bounce. Like, I just don't think he would have, he would have come out with it.

So I'm happy that he had that character progression. And I'm happy that all the other characters, we did get to see what. their lives were like and that makes them more complete and more of a whole character as opposed to just what we knew about them at the TVA. Yeah, and I agree. You know, it made me remember an episode, sorry, in last season, I think episode four, when they put Loki in the time prison and his worst memory is Lady Siff telling him, you're alone and you always will be. So I thought this was a, you know, maybe to really write a character, you have to understand what they want, but to understand what they want, you have to understand what they fear. And I agree with you. I

they nailed that down especially with loki in this episode colton what about you what were your thoughts on the episode well you know loki is my favorite uh disney plus series that marvel is done i've been really happy with it love season one i've loved every episode of season two i think last week's episode was probably my favorite but i really liked this one uh it was so great to get to finally meet mobius like who he really is uh getting to see him on that jet ski that was a lot of fun um The opening of this episode was so eerie, like Loki walking around this empty TVA and then the spaghetti noodles starting to, you know, come up out of the desks and stuff, and the, what was it, the failsafe protocol that was going over the intercom. I loved all that. That was really cool. One thing I was confused on, I'll kind of complain. That's kind of my thing here. Yeah. Why was Loki surprised?

that Sylvie knew who he was. I didn't understand that. I know everybody else was sent back to their timeline, so their minds were reset. If he went to the McDonald's to find Sylvie, that life was a life Sylvie had chose after knowing Loki, after season one. So that was kind of, I expected her to know who he was.

And when he seemed so surprised by it, I was like, why are you surprised? Do you still not have the hang of how this works? I don't know, a little nip. Yeah, it was more of a careless line that they wanted to be funny. And I don't think that they thought of the implications of it. Like they wanted him to have a little funny moment

where he's like, you don't know me, but I'm here. And you have to help me save the world. And then she's like, bro, I know exactly who you are. And he's like, oh. And so, yeah, I think I agree. I think that it was an unnecessary line that doesn't make sense and is confusing. And I think that they honestly just wrote it for the bit

and didn't consider that. And the Loki-Sylvia relationship was such a cornerstone in the first season, right? Like the whole, we are, you know, we're too chaotic elements we touch. Anything in the universe can happen. They break through a life together. And then we had that, you know, that argument, that total difference of opinion in episode six. And I feel like this season, though, they are still just having the same conversation over and over.

Yeah. Or maybe they haven't had enough time to have that conversation. This episode, I think they finally, they stopped messing around. They said what they actually mean. That, you know, Sylvie still believes in free will and Loki just wants a friend. Loki just wants a homie He just wants to hang out with like one guy He was left on a rock to die

As a child And he's never gotten away from like that feeling That he doesn't belong And he finally found a place where he belongs So I bought that I do think though that they've spun their wheels With their relationship I said like I think at the end of episode two

It was very weird that we just did the docs thing That fast That to me felt like they should have realized That was a threat for a whole episode Timelines are getting pruned Loki and Sylvie have to team up Instead it's they hold hold hands once. You know, it didn't really do it for me. So for me, the season is not like

bangor after bangor like season one was. But as far as like it's placed in the multiverse saga, it's so interesting to see how they're pulling these different threads together. And like I talked about earlier, one of the questions is, do fans even still care about the multiverse saga? And, you know, is this show salvaging the fan enthusiasm? Whitney, what do you think? Like, not just yourself, but like fans in general? Fans in general, I do think that it's very funny. I'm sure that you've seen all 2,000 of these tweets just like I have in the past couple days. But it's very funny that everyone is saying like, oh yeah, everyone hated Marvel Monday through Wednesday and then Thursday and Friday everyone loved Marvel again.

Because, yeah, it is a really redeeming show. And I do think that it is helpful for people who hate what's going on right now. I also just don't think that those people are right, though, because there's good stuff about each project. There really is. There's good moments in everything, and I do think that people need to calm down a little, tiny, tiny, tiny bit about that. Sure. There's good moments in everything, right? And you know me, like, I love Marvel. I love Marvel Comics. I've been reading Marvel Comics since I was a kid. Still read them today. So I'm up for, like, watching any MCU thing. But, I mean, there's certain things you can look at. And for me, the moment when, a show truly becomes bad is when my suspension of disbelief is shattered.

And for me, that happened in Rise of Skywalker when they said to Ray, you're a Palpatine. And it happened for me with the MCU and Secret Invasion because Secret Invasion for me started to break down this idea of, ah, there's not that great of a plan here. Like maybe there's a loose arc, but like you really like the Marvel brand used to always mean quality. It didn't mean, well, yeah, there's some good scenes in there, right? So are you personally, like, are you down with Secret Invasion? Like, where are you at with that?

Oh, no. We talked about this. I was not okay with Secret Invasion. I was surprised to hear you say this just now that there's good in it, that there's good in all of us. Because Samuel L. Jackson and, sorry, Fury and Vara's scenes, I should use their character names. Those were perfect.

I loved all of the, like, the Till Death Do We Part One was so good where they just, like, shot each other and missed, oh my, like, I loved that scene. I thought that was a beautiful scene. And you can't, you just can't. can't get better than a Sam Jackson monologue. You just can't. So I did really like that part of secret invasion, but that was the only part. Yeah. And I know, like, I'm a quantumania defender, right? I got to do a video about this soon. I really like quantumania. I don't get all the fuss about it. But there's definitely like this slope. And now we're seeing on the behind-the-scenes stuff

that I talked about earlier of why that's happening, basically Bob Chapic and Disney overworking Marvel to the point where nobody could ever fully fulfill fans' expectations. But with Loki, I really feel like we're getting there. And the theory crafting is back. I think with Secret Invasion, we had fun with the theories at first. Is Rodia a scroll? And then we're like, oh, he's a scroll. Oh, okay.

They completely took the wheels off of it. But this show, I'm really loving coming up with theories for this, because we're one episode away. We still don't know how it's going to end. right most shows by the penultimate episode they've pretty much solved it and then the last this following action there's a million things we could still make a million theory videos about this colton without giving away you know the video that you're working on right now what what do you think is what's happening what's going on i know how it's going to end i think um this episode

made me feel like i like i've been lifted i think i finally see how everything is going to transpire. I think O.B. Huh? Do tell, my friend. Yeah, I think that O.B. is at the center of all of it. I think this reveal that he was a science fiction writer. That immediately to me said, oh, not only was he a key piece in the technological building of the TVA, but I think he was also a key piece in the fiction of the TVA, the timekeepers and all of that, helping King, yeah, helping him craft this science fiction story to, you know, lie to all of his TVA. Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that.

I love that. I love that. Yeah, I don't see them just randomly saying, oh, he's a science fiction writer and that not being significant, you know, yeah. And also the chalkboards that we saw in Obie's workshop that is obviously going to somehow be, like, transferred to the TVA or modeled after that workshop. You could see the, the tube coming down where, like, the workboards come through. the fans the shelves yeah that that to me is just telling me i i think that kang is just a

user like he who remains i think he's using loki i think he's using obi i think all of that that work on the chalkboard and stuff that we're seeing in obi's lab and that we also saw in he who remains palace i think that's obi's work i think that in like i'll tease for the video we have coming out soon talking about what's going to happen with kang and all of that i think that i think that he has been using loki he's been using obi and just everyone around him i i think that's the key to the kang character he's a user and he's using all these people to put himself into power and i think that's what we're going to learn with the finale i mean he's a brilliant scientist but he did need janet's help to fix his multiversal engine course yeah yeah he did he might be a liar he might be a huckster i don't

know yeah exactly we i mean victor timely definitely is a genius but he also needed the tva manual not be a candle maker anymore yeah what do you think what's your what your thoughts on this like where where where where's this going to end up i don't know i i kind of think that we might see a full circle moment where like the auriboris you know the beginning is the end is the beginning also a great you know smashing pumpkins album but uh you know uh i i do think that it might come to be that, like, Loki is ultimately the one who restarts the TVA. And same with Obie, same with, you know, Mobius and all of them. I think that they kind of will restart the TVA because they have to fix the loom.

I think that doing that will involve, you know, going back and reinstating a lot of things, making it hopefully better this time around and hopefully with less, you know, man behind the curtain, Wizard of Oz bullshit this time around. But I wonder if it's going to, yeah, I think it might. Like if it's an auriborous, yeah, it's going to. I think that he might bring it back to fruition in the same way that, you know, he came back and pruned himself. I think it might be like that, but with taking the TVA to its next form.

There was another interesting thing in this where they had the, Sylvia and Loki had this conversation about choice and how Mobius was saying, like, oh, we love being in the TVA so much and they need to have a choice. Do you think that in the next episode that they, they're not only going to save the TVA, but like maybe to save the TVA, they have to hard reboot it. And then all these people, maybe their memories are going to be reconciled, which happens to characters all the time in the comics. And then they're all going to have to choose whether or not they want to stay in the reboot.

And then they all will. That could be a possibility. So that whole conversation about free will versus determinism, why not both? No, totally. I'm just like, is Mobius going to bring his children to the TVA? Is he going to raise them at the TVA, just like start a little TVA daycare where someone babysits his kids? Because if he's given the choice, I don't know if he can ditch his baby boys. I mean, we saw Wanda what happened when her baby boys got taken away and she was not happy.

And although Mobius isn't a, you know, a scary demon witch of any kind, I do think that you can't take away someone's boys. You just can't. he might, I mean, his wife was probably blipped. I mean, they're in 2022, and they make a point of saying, like, that she's not here anymore. So she probably is going to come back. I would assume that if his timeline was eradicated anyways, he would choose to stay. And I'm sure there's some YouTube channels right now that are fast at work on a video about how Mobius' sons are actually the century or something like that. But we don't quite get that much into theory crafting.

I do wonder, Colton, about this show. Like, I talk, okay, is it too complicated? Is it too much this, too much that? If this is like the last season, right, I'm looking at like what's coming down the line. There's rumors of TVA is in Deadpool 3. I don't know if they're true or not, but let's assume that TVA isn't Deadpool 3

and they're policing incursions, right? So the TVA will exist, and I think we all agree that's going to happen. There's going to be like an orboros loop. But as far as where Loki ends up before Kang Dynasty, if Kang Dynasty still happens. But before Loki ends up, where is that character? How's he going to reenter this main MCU

with his brother and all these other characters? Like, how do you think his story is actually going to end? What would be a fitting way for the character to come full circle? Well, you actually mentioned this before, a cool idea that I really liked, so I'll steal it from you now. I love the idea of Thor breaking Loki out of some type of prison that Kang has him held in.

And I think you guys are right on the spot about it is an auraboris and i think it's happening exactly how he who remains wanted and if you'll notice in the previously on for this episode they made sure to show he who remains saying i paved the path they showed that clip in the previously on which made me think oh he's still paving that they're still going down the path he paved and so to give i'll give a little tease to what i'm going to be talking about tomorrow. I think that this Loki variant is going to be locked away or something, kind of like

you had talked about before, Ryan. And I think we might learn that he has been locked away essentially for an eternity because I think Kang is using him. Oh, wow. We've theorized before that through enchantment, maybe Loki played a pivotal role in helping Kang actually assemble

the sacred timeline. I think OB played a role in like maybe the story aspect of that. So I do think that, Season one will end with Loki becoming essentially a prisoner to He Who Remains. And, yeah, I would love to see a Thor the Dark World kind of repeat of Thor going to break out his brother for help. I think that'd be really cool. There are shots of him in the jumpsuit and color.

I'm fine with that as long as they call it Thor Dork World for the breakout. I'm totally cool with that. Yes. And that would be an awesome way for those who aren't like maybe watching Loeuf. or like for the more casual fan, there's going to be no question as, oh, why is Loki locked up? You know, like, nobody's going to wonder, oh, why is that? They'll just assume, well, he got himself into some kind of trouble. So I think that'll be true.

Ooh, and Casey could also maybe assist in the jail break. He's done it before. Yeah, right. And then what's waiting for them when they get to the mode outside? Jet skis. Jets skis. Yes, yeah. And Loki.

Gator. The getaway jet skis. Yes. And they've got a doctor who can help them as they jet away, and Sylvie's just got the tent pass, so she could have taken them in and out the whole time anyways. Well, guys, this has been a lot of fun. I've got a theory, though, about a missing scene in this. I think there was a deleted scene that would have been really cool to see. I want to tell everybody about, but Whitney, Colton, thanks very much. If you haven't seen Whitney's coverage of Rick and Moriam Whitney Vision, you are missing out. Highly suggest you check that out. And everybody's socials and links are below. So, let's talk about Hunter B-15, and by the way, we found out that her actual name is Verity Willis, a close friend of Loki's in the comics. So Verity is living in New York in the year 2012. That is a

very important year because it is exactly when and where Loki attacked New York City with a giant alien army. It seems like that had to be intentional, right? Like they could have easily had her working in Des Moines in 2010, but they chose 2012 in New York. Everything in this show is deliberate, so I think that was like a conscious choice. Yet, this coincidence is never addressed in the show. Loki shows up, says... This is going to sound strange. And then we're led to assume that he just convinced to be 15 and everything is fine. But I think that originally there was going to be something else in there.

Like, Loki's whole arc is that he was once left alone to die on a rock as a baby. Your birthright was to die! So now he is always going to be afraid of being alone. You are alone. And you always will be. He took on the role of a villain basically to get attention so people would notice him. Neil. And finally, in episode five of the season, Loki just admits that's his main motivation.

I want my friends back. I don't want to be alone. And remember, in episode two, Brad teases him about trying to be a hero when inside he's truly been a villain all along. You're a villain. Now, Loki's villainy reached its highest point at the Battle of New York. He was like such an amazing piece of shit. So why send Loki back to that time and place unless it was for a reason? I think there was a deleted scene that was related to the Battle of New York. I mean, Loki even brought this up to Mobius in episode two.

I went down to Earth and held the whole of New York City hostage with an alien army. So why was it deleted scene? Well, there could have been a few different ideas here. Like, obviously, like when I say deleted scene, this could have been something that they were thinking about when they drew up ideas for the script. Maybe it was written but never shot. Maybe they conceived of it, but it was never written. Like, obviously, though, if time and money were not an issue, maybe the creators of the show imagine the hospital doing a triage on Loki's victims.

People are pouring in. They're injured by the rampaging Shatari. Loki would see firsthand the destruction that his actions caused in the past. And then the people in the hospital would have seen Loki and just been terrified of him. Hell, maybe Loki himself could have appeared like outside the window, so our Loki would have to confront his villainous past self. This would have been great because it would have brought Loki full circle and shown us how far he's come. But it also would have made it really hard to bring Verity along on his quest. There would have been a hold to do about him convincing her to come with him,

telling her that he's not the bad guy. and then, like, the show skipped all those steps so they could focus on the story at hand. But still, I think there could have been a balance in there where Loki could have been faced with the consequences of the Battle of New York. Something to show us that, even though his motives for being a hero were selfish,

he's definitely no longer a villain. But we also see that this is a branch timeline. Maybe this is a timeline where Loki never attacked New York. Then that also should have been brought up. Like, if Loki's able to enter a timeline where he was never perceived as a villain, then we should see that. We should see that, like,

he has an easier time of convincing Verity to come with him because he never took any villainous actions in this timeline. Still, I think there was something missing there. Do you guys feel like there was a deleted scene? Why would they choose 2012? Is it just a coincidence? Am I reading too much into this? Let me know your thoughts and comments down below,

and you can add me, Colton, or Whitney on our Twitters, which are also listed down in the description. And if it's your first time here, please subscribe and smash that bell for alerts. For Screen Crush, I'm Ryan Erie. Thank you.