ScreenCrush: The Podcast! - SECRET INVASION Episode 4: The Rhodey Reveal is Everything Wrong with the Show

Episode Date: July 14, 2023

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Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. Even when I'm out, I'm in. Hey, welcome back to Screen Crush. I'm Ryan Erie, and I want to talk to you guys about Secret Invasion Episode 4. This is a show that I am rooting for, a show that should be shaking the foundations of the MCU. And yet, they just gave us one of the biggest reveals ever in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and no one cares.

Is it because of low ratings or is there something else behind this? So I'm going to talk about why I think all this is and what the show has done right and ronk. And a little later, I'm going to be joined by NandoV Movies and Paul from Heavy Spoilers. But first, here's my take. What's really surprised me about this show is the viewer apathy. So I did a poll in our community page and this is how you all voted. 55% of Screencrush viewers like the show. 14% don't like it and a whopping one third are not watching the show yet.

I mean, guys, you're part of Screencrush Nation here. We're used to watching every MCU show in the morning before we go to work. So like, what's going on here? I'm wondering if we've been seeing something with this show where it almost feels obligatory. Like Marvel is ticking off boxes of things that need to happen in order to set up the future, like Fury in the Marvels and President Ross and Captain America Brave New World. Now, look, there's nothing wrong with the MCU using time to set up future projects. Captain America Civil War was basically all set up for Infinity War,

but it was done with elegant writing, clockwork precision, and it put its characters first. That movie had scale, substance, it was a fanboy dream come true. And Secret Invasion's comic book storyline would have also been a fan boy dream come true. Massive scale, hundreds of heroes. The show does not have the artistry, scale, or budget that this story deserves. I mean, this is not the same level of MCU show that we saw back in 2021. But look, first, I want to be fair and point out like what the show is doing right. For one, they have done an exceptional job with the scrolls.

The scrolls look great. They have believable motivations, and they're so sympathetic. So I think the scrolls in the MCU are actually way more nuanced and interesting than they are in the comics. And the show also has these world-class actors putting on a clinic. Samuel L. Jackson is branging the weight. And did you get what you wanted from this life? Even so? But he's also having fun.

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I break your concentration? And speaking of torture scenes, Olivia Coleman is a treasure. Alone at last. Now, shall we do this the easy way or this? the other way. Now, all of the character-based drama with Fury works pretty well, like his strained relationship with his wife. You just have been vanished again, only this time it was voluntary. But one flaw with all of this is, though, that there's a lot of telling us things in the show instead of showing us. We don't see Fury Post Blip. We don't see him lose faith in the heroes. We just kind of

hear that he's been depressed. After the blip, you were different. I think Thanos' snap changed you. You were never the same after the blip. Even when you did come back, there was no talking to you about anything real. He's been broken ever since he came back from the blip. And by the way, the entire show's premise has been undermined because we actually saw Fury in the Marvel's trailer, so we know that things are going to work out just fine. Well, that could be a life model decoy.

Yes, it could be an LMD, that's correct. Hey, person. Yeah, buddy? How do you know so much about films and movies and stuff? Did you go to a film school? Like a cinema university kind of thing? No, well, I mean, I kind of did, but mostly I just watch a lot of movies, and I watch a lot of documentaries about movies.

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CuriosityStream is great for people who love to learn and there is something here for everyone. So I highly recommend CuriosityStream. Go to CuriosityStream.com slash Screencrush or scan the QR code for unlimited access to the world's top documentaries and nonfiction series. And for our fans, use promo code Screencrush and you will save 25% off. So click the link below or go to CuriosityStream.com slash Screencrush and save 25% right now. Now, back to Secret Invasion. So the real problem with this show is that it feels small, even though the world is threatened with extinction.

It doesn't feel like it. Like I watched the show and I don't feel threatened. And the best example of this is the lazy, uneventful Rodey as a scroll reveal. So we've talked about this extensively on the channel. I have been excited for Rody to turn out to be a scroll for years. We did a video breaking down how long Rody could have been a scroll and what this would mean for the MCU.

I mean, this reveal had the potential to be universe-shattering. would have made us question everything we've known about the Marvel Cinematic Universe. But instead, we got the reveal over the phone. St. James Church, one hour. Now, okay, granted, the captions do say, man on phone, but that's Don Sheedle. He's one of the most famous people on the planet. I mean, wouldn't a scroll have at least changed into someone else to disguise their voice over the phone? And this reveal was just way too easy to see coming.

He treats Fury like dirt a couple episodes before. He fires Fury. And to tell him without any reservation that he's fired. And he just doesn't actually. like the man of honor that we've come to know over the past 15 years. Or then, how should they have done the reveal? Make me feel something. Like, okay, Fury tells Rody about the scrolls, and Rodey's like, oh my god, scrolls, well, let's do something about this. What's a scroll?

Let's get hop into action here. And then, later on in the episode, you could reveal to the audience that Rody is a scroll, so there's a ticking clock, creating suspense. Or maybe you don't reveal it to the audience and you have Fury and Rody working together throughout the show. And then you can pull the rug out from under Fury and us at the same time. That would make us go back through the entire MCU and think, oh my God, how long has Rody been a scrawl? Who else could be a scroll? It should have been the moment of the show. I mean, look, this is a spy thriller about shape-shifting aliens. Someone's going to be a shape-shifting alien.

There were very few candidates for this, and Rody was always the best choice. No powers. He's known Tony Stark for years, and he's been there from the start. They could have revealed that he's been a scrawl since Iron Man 2, sent to study Tony Stark and infiltrate the Avengers. But I'm betting that now Rody will have been replaced just after Avengers' endgame, because the scrolls have only recently turned evil. And it's such a shame, too, because, like, imagine if they find the real roadie and they wake him up, and his first question is, ooh, where's Tony? Oh, my goodness, that would be awesome. Right? Like, in the comics, there's a huge cast of characters, lots of moving parts.

You're not actually sure who you can trust. After Elektra, Spider Woman, and Hank Pim were revealed to be scrolls, you suspected everyone. But in the show, there's budget constraints. They can't pay royalties in a lot of characters just for a Disney Plus show. And plus, the sets feel small. The scale feels small. This is a global drama that is playing out in small rooms. Even a big set piece, like the motorcade attack, which is really cool, but it feels small. Like all the fog that rolls in for the fight scene, I bet that's to obscure the background and save money on CGI rendering.

And I don't even want to say, well, that's a TV budget for you, because Amazon Prime's Jack Ryan is a political spy thriller like this, and the show looks fantastic. Look, if Secret Invasion's not going to be a massive crossover, fine. It's actually really perfect to reinvent as a spy thriller. But it's a spy thriller that should look and feel like a mashup of the born identity in Tom Clancy movies like Clear and Present Danger. See, that's my point. Even if the show doesn't involve superheroes, the stakes need to feel big. And they don't. Disney Plus Marvel shows used to be better than TV because they were the MCU.

And I know that part of this is like a product of their times. When Disney launched Disney Plus, they needed marquee shows to pull in new subscribers. So they threw these insane budgets at Wanda Vision, Falcon the Winter Soldier, Loki, the Mandalorian. Even Andor Season 1 cost a quarter of a billion dollars. Billions with a B. Greater Tony Gilroy has even said that there's no way that kind of bubble. it would be greenlit today. Although it did pay off with that Emmy nomination for Best Drama, though, what what? Now, this happened in large part because in 2020, studios had a major

revenue stream cut off, so we entered into the streaming wars. Warner Brothers was releasing theatrical movies the same day on streaming. I mean, look, all of this was a gold rush that has now completely burst. Max, Disney Plus, and Paramount Plus are all removing shows from their servers to save money and claim them as losses. Disney laid off 7,000 employees, as Disney Plus was also losing a ton of money. And then we really started to see these purse strings begin to tighten in 2022. Like Shehawk though, right? Okay, so I know people dunk on that show a lot, and it's got plenty of problems with Marvel changing around the episode order and moving stuff around and making Scar look like this. But like when you go back and you watch the Shehawk Marvel

Assembled series, you can see that a lot of time and care went into the production of this show. They filmed Tatiana Mizlani in a very expensive room to fully render her character in 3D. It also requires about 50 cameras set up in a volume. But then I got to think they were forced to cut corners in post because throughout most of the series, Jen looks like a Sims character. And the same thing's true in Ms. Marvel. So the show had massive production problems because of COVID shutdowns. But that like big climax in the Pakistani market was embarrassing. Look at this CGI. It's like agents of shield level CGI. And I've also heard that the clandestines couldn't have powers because of budget constraints. So both of these shows had so

much to love them and I actually think that we're going to look back on them fondly. But at the time, cutting the corners made the shows feel cheap. And now we're seeing the same problem in the films. My name is Darren and I... And now we're seeing a tightened budget take its toll on Secret Invasion. Again, apart from the wet fart of the Rodey reveal, I don't think the show is bad. It's fine, but it should have been epic. I don't want Marvel streaming shows to stop.

I love Marvel streaming shows. I love covering them on the channel. But what I do want is for the house that Kevin built to start choosing its projects a little more wisely. Like, take that Agatha and Echo budget and apply it to crucial stories like secret invasion that need to feel huge. If they don't do that, then all the shows are going to keep feeling half-assed and obligatory. But those are just my thoughts. Now I'm joined by two of my favorite YouTubers. We have Paul from Heavy Spoilers and Matt from Nando v. Movies. So I'm pretty excited to hear from both of you about this. Nando, I want to start with you. So years ago, now, I think before you

even broke, you posted this great video we've talked about on the channel about, hey, here's the proof Rody could be a scroll. And this is like pre-end game theorizing you did. And it was it was pretty great. We've talked about that video a lot on the channel just during this show. So now that we have the Rodey scroll reveal, what were your thoughts on how it was executed? So I think it's interesting because I think part of what I've been trying to kind of figure out is it felt weird. Rodees felt weird for the last two or three episodes. Right. Like he feels like he's more of a jerk and he's very cavalier and it's even like different from you know because rhodie's always been kind of a loose canon or like he's he's been i don't know a straight shooter i don't know what you

would call that kind of character but like he's been that and i do feel like they they kind of went well listen people aren't going to buy this unless we turned it up to 11 and maybe the you know decision there or like the uh rationalization is he just hates nick fury so much that if you put him in room with Nick Fury, he is going to chew him out and like, but I don't know. I think on the whole, I'm glad they made it official. Like, they just took the scroll face and then turned it into roadie face. Like, that was great. Um, uh, because I would not want weeks and weeks of, you know, this like kind of limbo. And, um, but I think like, and I think it's fun when him and Fury have this back and forth where they both know the other one knows the thing. Uh, but I do think it feels

kind of like, if that wasn't there, the show would really be struggling to kind of have something interesting to talk about. So I'm glad they did it. Don't you think, though, that the part where you're like, yeah, he's acting weird, and maybe he hates Fury so much, wasn't

that undermined by the fact that they had never shared the screen before? You know, if they had been two characters with a history, I'm, you know, just going to cherry pick, I'm going to say, if it had been say Tony and Steve in that scene. You know, if like the universe would have worked out different, we were doing secret invasion instead of civil war. If it had been Tony and Steve, then it'd be like, wow, these two

really have been building up with this beef and they have this shared history. But in this, it just kind of felt, did it seem obligatory to you almost? Yeah, a little bit. I do feel like they kind of probably told Don Cheadle, like, you're a villain in this scene. So like, you know, really go for it. We want algae rhythm from Space Jam, but, you know, slightly less Warner. But the idea of, like, I think it could have worked a little bit better if this scroll had some sort of history with Nick Fury. Like, if we had done flashbacks earlier to seeing how this scroll and Nick Fury had interacted, like, we still don't even know which one this is. I mean, we know the name because of the, you know, the credits. But besides that, like, there was a point where you're kind of wondering, like, oh, because especially when you see it's a woman, like a scroll woman before you see the name, you're like, oh, is this the wife?

Does she hate Nick Fury? Yeah, that would have been great. Yeah. And then you're like, okay, now this relationship, like this dynamic makes sense because of a relationship that doesn't really have anything to do with War Machine. But it's not that and it's not Gaia. And it's so it's just very strange. Yeah, just like how in the comics, sorry, just like how in the comics, you know, Hank Pim had been acting strange for like 20 issues before he was revealed to be a scrawl during Secret Invasion. Paul, how about you?

You know, just talking about the Rode reveal, did you feel like that the South. Did they drop the ball? What are your thoughts on it? Drop the ball in it massively, yeah. So they did the reveal of the phone last week. And it was, I'm going to out myself as an idiot right now, but I didn't even realize it was Rodey on the phone. I thought it was like Pagan,

because it was so obvious that Rodey was going to be the scroll. Because, I mean, let's look at scroll candidates for the show. Everett Ross, you know, that one kind of, kind of, whoa, Everett Ross is a scroll. First five minutes, done. yeah exactly and then who are you left with you've got the scroll characters Nick Fury Maria Hill who dies in the first episode and Rowdy and I can't think of any of the characters off the top of my head right now

maybe the president but yeah what about Olivia Coleman or whatever her name is Sonia yeah another character who's aka the best character on the show so far yeah but we don't have a history with her you know this is the first time she's appeared in the show and obviously they're making secret and going off the comics the reveal is whoa these characters have been scrolls for ages the only other character who's been there for ages other than Maria Hill who's dead is rowdy so it kind of it narrowed it down very very loosely and yet i think it just became obvious it was almost like the the power broker with shannon shannon shannon i keep i keep

calling her shen but um so embarrassing yeah yeah it was kind of where you knew it was you knew it was going to happen and it was so obvious that it was almost like a red herring and then when Sharon at the end of Falcon the Winter Soldier she got on the phone it was just like oh yeah I've been thinking for the last week it's so obvious I've not even made videos saying that it's her because of how obvious it is and yeah I just thought with Rody it was it was abundantly clear exactly what it was going to be now going back to the whole Saurant thing I actually had a theory that what was going to happen was that Rody was going to be revealed to be sorry and you know how in the trailers we had Gaia resting over a body after the convoy attack

which is obviously we know that's Talos now but I thought what the twist was going to be was that the Rodee would get killed in the convoy attack and then it would be revealed to be So you'd have Talos and Gaia both having this big because I mean if they were going with the obvious route of Rody being a scroll I feel like they needed another twist on top of that and revealing that it was Soren, I think, would have just elevated it a bit more because they both thought she was dead. But yeah, just disappointing over the phone. I think the way they should have handled it was, you know, a character actually learning it instead of, or face-to-face at least. Because Nick finds out Verdefnit listening in on the conversation.

And, I mean, it doesn't even look that shock, to be honest, which, you know, it kind of plays into his character that he's aware of everything. But, you know, like Darth Vader being Luke's father, spoiler alert, the emotion is that your feeling in that moment is represented in Luke who's screaming out. And so you get an embodiment of your feelings on screen. Whereas with this, you didn't really have a character giving a reaction to it. It was just kind of Nick just chilling out. Like, yeah, known it for a while. So yeah, it just fell flat. It was the most obvious reveal that was going to be in the show.

but I still think they could have done more with it when you're 100% right there was no sense of personal betrayal toward the character and hence no sense of personal betrayal toward us and a lot of it goes back to what I was saying earlier about the show feeling small and it's not just that you know there are there are intense dramas that are technically like theatrical dramas that are technically quite small that are filmed in small spaces but feel theatrical and feel big because the emotions on screen and I'm just

just not getting that from this show. I'm not getting high stakes on the world stage. I'm not getting high personal stakes. Maybe it's because we didn't see Soren Die. It just feels to me like it's obligatory. Paul, what's your thoughts on the show so far? I know you were a big fan of the first two episodes. Yeah, I enjoyed three as well.

Yeah. Yeah, I think this one was the worst one. And it was also the shortest one, which whenever they kind of have a certain set length that they tend to do whenever they inevitably release the one that's in the 30-minute range, you always kind of get a feeling that they're sort of rushing through things. And it always happens towards the end of the series as well,

where things should be really mounting up, and instead it kind of almost falls flat a bit. And, yeah, I mean, there reveals this week what obvious Guy is alive, yeah, we guess that. Scroll roadie, and I even knew, I mean, I could tell Talos was going to die as well, just from what had been shown in the trailers. And, yeah, it just kind of felt like they were going through. through the motions. I agree with the whole scale thing as well. I think, you know, they keep telling us it's World War III and we do kind of get that idea almost, but the characters

aren't there who would be present for a World War III thing. Where are the, you know, Captain America would be sorting out things for World War III because he pretty much encompasses that country and their dealings internationally and stuff on combat levels. So yeah, It just feels like it's a Disney Plus show at the end of the day. That's just what it feels like. It's not that next level. It should feel like a part of the MCU. Yeah.

Yeah. Shian, how about you? What are your thoughts? I was just going to say it's a shame we don't have any high profile Russian characters in the MCU that we could throw to right now that could be, you know, getting involved. And then it's like, oh, he's here. Very convenient, but also maybe too convenient. I do feel like as we've been talking about it, it did kind of bring up one of the weirdest things about the Rodey scroll reveal, which is like,

he's a bad guy before and after the reveal, right? Like, wouldn't you expect in the beginning of it, he's helping Rody, or he's helping for her, excuse me, Rodi, and then he's come, like, you know, he's not firing him and not being mean to him. And then you get a moment where it, like, turns, it's like, oh, my God, this person I thought I could trust. Like, it's, it's just so, it, the dynamics are so strange. I, parts of this scale, I, I totally agree with.

um parts of it i also think i do i do think and i don't want to you know upset anybody some of these guys just feel tired like it feels like like we got we got you know especially talos who i love and i think ben mendelsohn is doing a very good job has a very like exhausted energy because this character has seen a lot of suffering and whatever and he's just like done at the same time we have this roadie who's uh excuse me geez we have this fury who's off his game and he's just sitting there in the chair like oh man I just don't know what I'm going to do and so you need I feel like what we need is a character in the middle of that who has some energy who's able to kind of keep this ball moving because a lot of the especially in the first

couple episodes the scenes just felt very like I don't know low low energy it's disappointing as fans of the comic books you know because when you know I remember reading that event when it came out and being like, oh my God. Like it really was such a great concept that harkened back to like the very earliest issues of the Fantastic Four. And they had all these things where they like went back and made you relook at events from the past. Like they took old Marvel comics of scrolls and was like, oh, but here's what you didn't see. So they were kind of retconning things to build up the current day storyline. Comics not perfect. There was the whole like, there was this badass thing where every time a scroll would kill someone, they would say he loves you and you're like,

oh, who is that? Who's he? Turned out to just be the scroll god. So it wasn't perfect. Like, you know, no moral crossover can be, but it was epic. And I understand it's a scaled-down spy thriller. But when you watch certain spy thriller, the conversation, right? Not even a spy thriller. It's a surveillance thriller, Eugene Hackman. That movie is in tight, claustrophobic spaces. It's about spies and listening in, but it feels big because the dramatic stakes are big.

And that's something that in this show, I'm like, I don't, it's so hard for me to understand what's not clicking, because this is a world-class cast, a caveat. Academy Award nominee, Samuel Jackson, Academy Award winner, Olivia Coleman, Amelia Clark. Insane work if they're doing individual scenes, but it's like, as a whole, the show isn't coming together. And I wonder how much of that is because of behind the scenes at Marvel. You know, we saw all this money put into streaming at first, like I talked about earlier. And now we've got, you know, at the end of the Chapic area, that's beginning to, like, scale back. I think it's kind of almost the opposite problem with, or like the, there's the opposite solution, which is like, and part of it is Coven of Chaos, because I do think that could be kind of an inflection point here.

It's such a weird pitch beyond just this character had the popular song and, like, was, is played by an actor people generally like and all that. Like, I think the problem with some of these is that if you. pitched, the secret invasion show we're watching, the pitch would make no sense. Like, not because the show is bad or anything, just because it's like, it's this one spy and his friend who's a secret shape-shifting alien, and they have other shape-shifting aliens that are different from the other ones, and they're not friends, and this guy's in there. And it's just like too, it's too complicated, whereas I think what they need more of and what I think they've been able to do well, like you were saying, 2021, because the other thing they did

really well in 2021 was like Shangchi and you know black would have maybe not as much but like there were there were some movies that felt like real kind of just fresh new things that you could jump right on to because you would if even if no one watched the marvel movies he'd say well I know but it's like a you know he does super kung fu and he's really cool and that that's all you need like I think Agatha could be that if it's just a really fun show where you're like like someone who never watches these shows, you go, yeah, I know, you haven't received, but it's charmed, and one of the witches is evil, and they sing every so often, like, and it's really good. That, I think, is what Marvel needs and what Guardians was, and what a lot of

these things are, are these shows you watch in spite of the fact that they're, like, Marvel properties. They're not, andor really did break this for me, because, like, Andor is, it was so good, it was so disconnected from so much the rest of it, but it was also just so so well done. You felt so excited to tell other people about this show you just found out about and fight them on people who just look like, I don't like Star Wars.

I know, but you're going to like it. I think there need to be, instead of being like these really obvious moves, like let's get Ironheart in because she's the next Iron Man, people like Iron Man. I do feel like I need to know what the pitch for that show is besides,

you know, kid doing Iron Man stuff in college. like what is that what makes this something that people really want to watch yeah and just to briefly touch on what paul said earlier about like thinking every character can be a success i think she hawk can be a success she hawks a great character i don't think a disney plus show is the right place to be introducing new characters the formula in 2021 you know matt you mentioned it's shan chi and the eternals on the big screen new characters big screen people will watch a disney plus show for the big screen characters and then they'll want to see those you know other care. It's like, I think they inverted that formula in 2022, and I just think we need a balance between

the two. That makes a lot of sense, though. Yeah, that is a good pipeline for, like, how they have been successful before and how comics kind of would work, where you'd have a character, you know, introduced in a big event or an ongoing thing that was really popular. And then they get their own little spin-off book once they're really kind of working and, you know, you want to see more of their day-to-day. Black Panther was in Civil War. Exactly. Yep. Yeah. And then you got, you got it. Spider-Man, like the MCU version of Spider-Man, which worked really well. And you could have easily taken Black Panther after Civil War and put him in a Disney Plus show

if that had existed at the time. And I think that would have been a success. You know, it's just, I don't know. And then, like, I keep, in my mind, it keeps going back to Sheehawk, how they rearranged everything at the last minute, how unfinished the VFX were. When you watch Marvel assembled, those people worked really hard on that show. And it just didn't have the proper time and care in the pipeline that it should. have nando where can the people find you i mean everywhere if you if there's a thing and you put the

words nando v movies in it then it usually comes up with my thing we have a discord we have you know obviously youtube channel nando cut is a secondary channel um which has been very helpful since every day is some new insane casting announcement and uh then i have a podcast called mostly netpicking where we talk about either the big thing of that week or some other thing some other movie that's kind of leading up to it so we just did the haunted mansion movie from 20 years ago, which is a terrifying sentence to say out loud as someone who is over 30. So, yeah, all those things. And, yeah.

Paul, how about you? Where can the people find you? Heavy spoilers. Every Wednesday after Secret Invasion is, come over, come over to us, please, yeah. Essentially, Paul makes the videos in real time. So it's sort of like they travel faster in the speed of light. So his breakdowns come up before the episode even airs. And just a reminder, everyone, to get 25% off Curiosity stream right now.

Click our link in the description and use the code ScreenCrush or scan this QR code. You won't regret it. This site is awesome. Well, what do you guys think of all this? Let me know in the comments below or at me on Twitter. And if it's your first time here, please subscribe to smash that bell for alerts. For Screen Crush, I'm Ryan Erie. I'm going to be able to be.