ScreenCrush: The Podcast! - Why did the Flash Flop?

Episode Date: June 20, 2023

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Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. I completely broke the universe. Hey, welcome back Screen Crush. Let's talk about The Flash. The movie bombed. It made less money than Black Adam in its opening weekend,

despite hype from cinema con, celebrities, and the promise of a new universe. I'm going to talk about my thoughts on the movie and why I think it bombed. And a little later, I'm going to bring out two of the best Matt Singer and Colton Ogburn to get their thoughts on this film. Well, but first, here's my take. I got to say, I like this movie, but it was over hype. We had James Gunn saying it was one of his favorite superhero movies of all time. There was like an array of celebrities giving it an early thumbs up.

And even the raves I heard after CinemaCon made me like really pumped up to see this movie. Like, I love Flash Comics. I love Michael Keaton Batman, and I am very excited for a fresh take on the DC Universe. And this movie was good, but I would say it's like an upper mid-level Marvel movie. Like, it's better than the Ant-Man movies in Thor Love and Thunder. But it's like no winter soldier, you know. Because I'm with you at the end of the line. But for me, it hits a lot better than most other DC-EU movies.

I would actually say it's my second favorite DC-EU film just behind the Suicide Squad. My full ranking is in the comments. Let me know yours below. Tell me! Oh, I'm going to put mine down there too. First, let's talk about what worked. Ezra Miller really did feel like two different characters in this. Barry and Other Barry seamlessly interact with each other.

And even if they had the same haircut, you would be able to tell them apart. Like, I always thought that Barry Allen was annoying as hell in both versions of the Justice League. Like, maybe the filmmakers were trying to interject some Marvel humor, but they cranked it up to 15, and the jokes rarely landed. Okay, we're not ready for racially charged. But in this movie, The Master's Stroke was to introduce an even more annoying version of Barry so I can transfer my hatred of Barry onto the younger version. This makes our Barry seem almost normal by comparison.

Harrison. But this also forced our Barry to grow up, to be the adults in the room. Like, that awkward guy getting a gross sandwich at the start of the movie feels like a very different character from the guy who exonerates his dad at the end of the movie. Because the events of the movie change Barry and allow him to grow as a person. And it's great to see a superhero movie where the hero has to learn a lesson about when not to use their power. Most of these movies are tights and fights to end with the hero beating up the bad guy. But in this movie, Barry is the bad guy. to overcome his own inadequacies, his own trauma to save the day. That is so rare in like really any action movie. I feel like this movie graduated the DC EUsberry Allen into a full-fledged superhero and not just the Justice League's janitor. A gray and white striped cat wearing goggles and a lab code, hyper-reelistic go. Ha ha, awesome. Hey person, what are you doing? Hey man, I'm using this really fun AI art app called Wonder.

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And there have been a lot of accusations and some violent incidents that are caught on tape. And as far as I know, only two criminal charges have actually been filed against them, trespassing and second degree assault for throwing a chair at a woman. I do think that Ezra Miller needs help, and I hope that they get psychiatric. But there has to be consequences for your actions. If you keep rewarding bad behavior, then they have no reason to grow and learn. So I think either recast or just retire this character for a very long time. I mean, if this character even ends up in the same universe anymore, and I'm going to talk about that confusing mess with Colton and Matt in just a little bit.

Now, a lot of people have complained about the CGI in this movie. But you know what, it didn't bother me at all. Of course, I'm also the one who thinks that Ant Man 3 looks okay. When people complain about the CGII, I assume they're talking about the weird, otherworldly look of people in the Cronobol. The same look in the multiverse sequence when DC brings back dead actors to show us just how expansive the multiverse is. And side note, instead of bringing back people who passed away, they really should have also included the Aeroverse Flash in this sequence. I mean, Flash had multiverse sequences and crossovers and incorporated the movies and even Ezra Miller. The Aeroverse wasn't perfect, but it's been the best live action DC for more than a decade, and they should have acknowledged it.

After all, Ezra did appear on the Flash, and that's even how he got his name in the movies. The what? The flash? The flash? The flash. Anyways, with the multiverse and chronoble sequences, I felt like the filmmakers were making a very deliberate stylistic choice. It reminded me of the flashbacks we see in the Justice League

or in Wonder Woman when Diana learns about Zeus, portraying events through like this lens of a Renaissance painting. So you may think they look like they're in a PlayStation 3 cutscene, but that choice had to have been deliberate, because look, it would have been way cheaper to take photos of like the actresses who plays Barry's mom from several angles and just insert that in. The Michael Keaton Batman action sequences were also so well done because you can tell they showed restraint.

Batman 89 of Batman Returns had real world limitations, practical effects, a hero fighting from inside of a big tire, and this movie replicated those limitations. There was never a point where Keaton was fighting where I thought, oh, that's crappy CGI. Now maybe some of the opening fight Batman's CGI is a little rubbery, but I love that opening sequence with the Justice League so much. It was awesome just getting to see the Justice League working together. This was some of the best Batman action that we've ever seen, and Gal Gadot is always perfect as Wonder Woman.

Like, I really, really hope she gets to return to whatever this new universe is. I mean, like, part of this opening sequence just stings. Imagine if we would have had, like, a really good Justice League movie that Warner Brothers build up too slowly for years instead of a studio rushing headfirst into team-ups. The Justice League should have been the Banner franchise of the superhero age, and Warner Brothers completely blew it. It's also bothering me how much of a tonal shift we've seen within the DCEU.

I really don't care for the grim, dark tone of Snyder's movies or Suicide Squad. But it's hard for me to believe that those movies take place in the same universe where Barry Allen has a calorie counter on his suit, like an energy meter in a video game. Like a full franchise reboot would fix all of these tonal problems, and I'm not even sure that's what we got with this ending. And by the way, everyone, if you like what we do here and you want to help support our channel, thanks for checking out our merch store with the link in the description below. We have awesome Flash parody merch. For instance, this Fet shirt with Doug and Doug from Earth 2 going after a ball,

and of course this Be Kind Don't Rewind shirts and lots of other fun parody merch like you want to play fetch let's play fetch you can check out the link below thanks again for your support and back to what i was saying so let's talk about what didn't work for me in this movie i think the universe went just a little too goofy too fast i talked about the calorie meter but the baby shower was just awful the cgii babies looked awful the pun baby shower was awful and the whole thing felt like a rehash at the time in a bottle quicksilver sequence from days of the future past but you know like whatever i might be alone on all that then again Maybe this universe has been goofy all along. After all, we'll always have this. Save Martha! And speaking of universe, I think the multiverse is a losing concept and fiction. The problem with the multiverse is, when there are like an infinite number of versions of someone, that nothing you do ever matters. What's the worst that can happen?

You either takeover or you plunge your blade in my chest and I just end up right back here anyways. This is the whole concept behind Rick and Morty. If Rick's family dies, he can just find a new one in a different reality that's exactly the same. And for franchises, I think the multiverse is a way for corporations to combine their IP under one umbrella. It's also a way of telling fans, hey, if you don't like this version of Spider-Man, don't worry, they're infinite Spider-Men. But you know what, that's a gripe that I'm going to say for a future video. It also bothered me how much of this movie is spoiled in the trailers. Like, you can tell when Michael Keaton shows up that they filmed this, intending for it to be a surprise.

They conceal his face for the entire fight. It's probably why they gave the character long hair. And even when we finally see him, there's like a pause like they're holding for applause. The same thing with Supergirl. When they break into the Russian prison to find Superman, it's a very slow reveal, like we're expecting to see an emaciated Henry Cavill. And while we're on the subject, I'm not sure why Supergirl was in the movie. I love the character Cara Zorel, and I hope Sasha Calle like continues to play her.

But in this movie, her choice about whether or not to save humanity didn't really fit in with the movie's themes. Or wait, or did it. Because I guess she does have to learn to use her power responsibly. just like Barry does. But you could still remove her from the story and it wouldn't change anything. And that's like never good in a movie. And you know what, guys? I grew up on the Michael Keaton Batman films. I quote those films all the time. Like when we would go to the mall, I wouldn't say, do you want to go to the mall? I would say, Alfred, let's go shopping. Alfred, let's go shopping.

The music of those movies still gives me chills. I listen to it when I'm on run. So I thought that this movie was going to hit me right in the member berries. But I never felt that pang of nostalgia. Maybe it's because you just can't go home again. But like I never thought this version of Batman was the same character as those Burton films. It was really cool that they recreated the kitchen and the Batcave and all that stuff. But like, what's actually going on in this guy's life? He says Gotham is a nice place. He's not needed.

So why isn't he happy? That's maybe a question that's worth diving into, how he's a warrior that needs a war. But instead, Keaton's first reaction is to just turn Barry down. Why would he turn him down? Zod has invaded the earth. Why doesn't Batman want to help? It just, I don't know. It was fine.

Like, I loved Keaton's Batman, but it just like didn't really work for me. It felt like Keaton was playing a different Batman and not his original Batman. I still liked this Batman. It just didn't feel like it was the same guy. And don't even get me started on the George Clooney cameo. I have no idea what they're doing. Like a few months ago, James Gunn said

that George Clooney was definitely not returning to this Batman. But now, is he? Matt and Colton and I are going to talk about that in just a little bit, and we all have very strong feelings about that George Clooney cameo. Now, I do think the Clooney cameo kind of cuts to the heart of why this movie didn't perform well at the box office. Audiences like interconnected universes. We love the MCU because it's filled with these characters that we love.

and we get to see them interact together and cross over. It's thrilling, but in the MCU, there's also a sense that everything matters. Audiences went to see Captain Marvel to find out how she could help defeat Thanos after the snap and Infinity War. But the multiverse means that nothing matters because there's always another infinite universe out there somewhere. So we talk about the MCU a lot on this channel, but Zach Snyder's DCEU has a really enthusiastic fan base. Putting aside like how toxic some Snyder fans are, this fan base was able to move mountains. They got Warner Brothers to spend $70 million on a straight-to-streaming movie. Those fans love what Snyder was doing.

They were the DC fans that kept the DC EU afloat. And I don't blame them for being mad at Warner Brothers for how they treated Zach Snyder, how every single movie seems like a direct departure from the world that they became invested in. This movie even takes the first Snyderverse movie, Man of Steel, and essentially uses it to tell a radically different story. This movie opens with a goofy baby shower sequence that's a far cry from this. Do you plead? So Warner Brothers tells all of these Snyder fans,

hey, this movie finally gets rid of that old universe that you liked and it starts a new one. Who the hell would turn up to watch that? It's like that line from Network after Howard Beale starts to tell the public that they should let corporations control their lives. Nobody particularly cared to hear his life was utterly valueless. And the movie also bombed because of all those problems with Ezra Miller that I talked about. No one likes them after how they behaved. So why would they want to watch them on screen? And this brings me back to the George Clooney cameo.

When you tell fans, hey, we're going to have a new universe, a new Batman. We expect it to be like the Flashpoint comics, which also reset the universe. And then they bring in the worst Batman of all time, who, by the way, I love as an actor. And Batman and Robin being bad was not his fault. But back to this ending, it's not clear if he's a new Batman or if this is just supposed to be a gag. It's very confusing. But that's just what I think of the Flash. I'm very lucky to be joined here by two of my favorite people.

We have Colton Ogburn, who actually saw the Flash months ago at CinemaCon. And so originally saw a very different cut from the one we've seen with like unfinished visual effects. And of course, Screencrush Editor-in-Chief and film critic Matt Singer. So thank both of you for being here with me. You've heard what I had to say about The Flash, and I want to hear from you guys. Colton, you've been all over the channel kind of praising this movie for months. What did you think about the final product? What do you think about the movie?

Well, you know, I said at the time when I saw it at Cinema Con that it had unfinished visual effects, but now after seeing the final cut, it looked the same visual effects-wise. So they weren't any better. Like, I won't go into specifics, like the babies, the clock in the opening shot. I thought to myself, oh, they're going to fix that. Nick Cage, they're going to fix that. That's just a stand-in. They're going to maybe get him to come in or deep-fake it better.

No, it all looked exactly the same. But, you know, ignoring that, you know, looking past the CGI, yeah, I really, really liked this movie. Like you said, I saw it at CinemaCon. I was kind of worried that maybe, you know, just in the being there and being excited to be there, having fun. I was wanting to make sure that I wasn't seeing the film through like rose-colored glasses. But I've seen it twice now since then. I saw it at a press screening. I went and saw it last night just at the theater.

I enjoyed it both times just as much as I did the first time. I love the way that this movie is a swan song and an origin film, like, at the same time. It's a swan song, like, for the DCEU in a way, and it's like this big culmination film, but at the same time, it's an origin film for Barry Allen, which I thought was really neat, how they were able to pull that off. Standard disclaimer, Ezra Miller, problematic, but I thought they did really, well in this movie, the way they were able to pull off playing two characters that carried this movie and played off of one another. I was really impressed with that from like an acting

perspective and a directing perspective as well. I would assume that's really difficult to pull off. So I was impressed with that. This movie made Michael Keaton my favorite Batman. Before I would say my favorite was probably Ben Affleck. I don't like Ben Affleck's movies, but I enjoyed his portrayal of the character. Bales movies are probably my favorite, but I really loved the seasoned Batman that they gave us with Michael Keaton. And I did feel some nostalgia there for the Keaton Batman. Getting to see him return. Yeah, it didn't quite get me the way it did you. I wish I had. I was ready. Maybe I was too ready for it. I was like, oh, I'm going to get emotional. Yeah, I don't know. It, it worked for me personally. So yeah, I was excited to see him back. I know you didn't like the

baby shower either, Ryan. And I really enjoyed the baby shower. It was weird, but I liked it. Instead of having Flash, have to save your standard damsel in distress or, you know, like a crane operator falling or something like that. It was just too goofy, man. It was just like, it could, it's too totally different from everything we'd seen before. And I do think it's impressive they were able to get the same baby from American sniper to like portray all those different babies in it. That was pretty cool. But no, for me, it took me all the way out of the past. picture, unlike Artemis here, who's in the picture. Matt, how about you? What was your thoughts on the

movie? Your review is, of course, up onscreencrush.com for everybody to read, but what did you think of the film? Well, I can't say I liked it as much as Colton. I think it's okay. You know, a lot of the things he mentioned liking, I also liked. I thought that the dual Ezra Miller performance,

you know, works really impressively well, where sometimes you even kind of forget you're looking at one actor playing two people you know it's one of like it's one of those like moon night yeah it's like such a great sort of trick it almost it's almost too good because you sort of forget you're watching one person give two performances you you start to think there's two barry allen's basically and two actors um you know uh saying you know looking past the cg i like that was something i kind of had

a hard time doing a lot of the movie with the babies like those babies look super weird to me and kind of a disturbing, unsettling way. And then really everything about like the last 15, 20 minutes of this, of the movie, all the stuff in that, you know, the effects that you thought Colton were unfinished that apparently were finished, they were just, they were just weird and ugly and kind of off, to me, like personally, like kind of like off-putting and gross in some of them, where I think what we're supposed to feel is this sort of like

this grand sort of feelings of warm nostalgia and like look at all of these wonderful things the DC universe has already created as it's moving into this new era

and mostly it just made me feel like I don't know it felt kind of ghoulish to me like it didn't make me feel any of those things it made me feel kind of icky And I just, you know, anytime you're going to bring back, you know, or you're going to use the likenesses of people who've passed away, to me, that's always a very, that's an area that's very hard to kind of pull off.

And I don't think that this movie pulled it off very successfully. So I feel like the themes of the movie, the ideas of the movie work pretty well. That central dual performance works pretty well. a lot of the humor worked pretty well and yes, I thought Michael Keaton was great I really loved seeing him again but the movie really kind of falls apart for me

anytime there's a lot of visual effects especially like digital human beings on the screen and then yeah a lot of the ending just did not work for me including like the very last scene I was just kind of like going like this and like

I was doing a lot of like touching and rubbing my face in a bad way look what has happened to this movie that i was really into for a lot of it as somebody who really enjoyed the movie i i would agree that the the third act is definitely the weakest act of the film and a scene that was supposed to feel like this you know massive important multiversal scene that was supposed to look really neat it felt really forced it felt out of place and just like it was shoehorned in and just there for the sake of being there so uh i would agree that it It just felt out of place.

And it had a really big lack of flash. It was very Superman-centric, which I also thought was really weird. Well, the first part of the movie is all Batman-centric. So why shouldn't the end of the movie be Superman-centric? I mean, I was my honest reaction to that, that, what is it, the Crono Bowl? Is that what it's officially called? Yeah, yeah. Apparently.

So my reaction to that, like the ending in that part was like, okay, how much did they change from when people saw this like at cinema con like when colton saw it like much ago i was like is this a different movie because i saw people saying how great it was and i was like this is a mess like what happened here did they and and and we know that you know at some point in the process of making this movie there have been some changes because you know it was started under one regime at dc and another regime came in and we know that there's or we've heard rumors of reshoots and this and that so i'm thinking like i was literally like asking people who knew after the movie i was like okay what did people see at cinema con and

what was different here because i could not like square the reactions with what i saw well i think we were all oh sorry i was just i think we were all under the i think we were all under the impression this is gonna look awesome when it's done but i think that the larger issue is that Like you said already, it's like, this is supposed to be the Flash's story and the Flash's journey and, like, what all of this has meant to him, and we're pausing the big emotional climax of the movie to, like, for this, like, procession of CGI, Uncanny Valley cameos. And it's like, they, that's not what the movie was about. I thought, I thought it was about Barry Allen and his journey and what he was learning.

And, uh, that whole, like, stopping the big, emotional ending of the movie to do that, I think, kind of detracts from that. But then again, maybe the movie isn't about that. Because I feel like you could argue at the end of this movie, after that, the very last actual scene, it suggests that maybe Barry didn't learn anything in this movie, right? The whole thing he, this whole journey he went on to learn about, you know, grief and moving on and letting go of the past, and you can't change these things. Well, maybe you, it's almost like the movie, the last scene is like,

Well, actually, maybe you can, or maybe we will, because why not? So maybe, I don't know, it's like, you mean the last scene outside the courthouse, right? Yeah, well, that whole sequence where we see, you know, this whole, the whole sort of, you know, the beginning of, beginning of the movie introduces his mother has passed away. He's going to save her, and, and then it's like, the movie almost forgets that.

It's like, it's not even about his relationship. He saved his mother's life. Well, how is that going to, what's the relationship going to be like from then on? Well, there is no relationship. She's barely in the movie. It's all about sort of him juggling. Now he's, you know, it's like a house of cards falling, and he's trying to put the pieces back together as it's falling for the rest of the movie.

And then you get to the end, and the idea, it seems like, should be he's learned his lesson about, not just about changing the past in like a literal sense, but like metaphorically, you know, he's held on to this grief and this trauma and what he needs to do is like move forward with his life. and then he immediately on learning this lesson he's like well maybe I can still change one little thing

and you know and he tweaks the past again and you know enables his father to escape from or you know not escape but basically

he is able to exonerate his dad which I guess you can like rationalize you might say well he didn't do it As far as we know, we don't know who did. Who did it? Maybe he did do it. I don't know. That's a question for another time.

A good question for another time, Matt Singer. And another movie, of course. But, um, so you could maybe rationalize. Maybe this isn't as big of a deal, I guess. In, like, metaphysically speaking. But the whole point of the freaking movie was, don't meddle with the past and don't hold on to what's already happened and try to move forward. And he changes everything again.

And it's like, I know I'm ranting and raving, but I, I mean, this is also part of what I was, like, doing during the movie. I was like, we just watched this whole movie, which, again, has some fun elements, some great performances. But it's like, what is the point of a movie if the whole theme of the movie is this? And then at the end of the movie, they go, forget it. Forget about all of that. We're going to change it some more because it's fun. Yeah, I also, like, didn't have a huge problem with it because, like, look, frankly, when this version of Barry Allen stops being,

an immature goofball. It was great to see him take on that mentor role and grow up a little bit because frankly, he was pretty damn annoying in both versions of the Justice League. Like brunch. Like, what is brunch? But I wouldn't want to lose that little bit

of a still goofy edge to him. But you raise a good point. Destroying the universe forever. Well, he didn't destroy the universe. He destroyed Ben Affleck as Batman. So that brings me to the next thing, which is what in the hell happened in this ending, right? So we're dissecting this in different videos in Screencrush,

but I want to know what you guys think about George Clooney. So there's all these things. There's like BTS images. It looked like Keaton was there wearing the same suit. Clooney's got a beard, so Batman doesn't have a beard. Does that mean he's retired from Batman? He acts like he doesn't know what Barry's talking about. Is there no Batman?

Is Bruce Wayne just a really well-adjusted guy whose parents are still alive? What the hell is going on there? Colton, you saw a different version at CinemaCon and you've got like some inside stuff there. You've been like rumors and things about a re-shoe. What do you think about that ending? Yeah. Well, you know, I really liked the original ending that I saw at CinemaCon where you had the feet step out of the car, cuts back to Barry.

Who that? F is that? I was like, that is such a brilliant ending teasing. You know, I knew we probably weren't going to see Ezra again. We know there's a new Batman coming, but they don't want to introduce a new Batman quite yet. with our long Ezra Miller, along with Ezra Miller and all that, I thought that is a perfect ending. We'll get our new Bruce. That's just going to work so well for going into the new DCU.

Then I go and see it at a press screening. I think it's done. I'm putting my notebook up. George Clooney comes on screen. My jaw drops. I call Ryan. It's like 11 o'clock at night. I thought, I thought like you were in an accident.

Yeah, I like text, Ryan. Your text was, call me if you can. And I'm like, oh my God, what's going on? I'm like, I'm pausing things. My wife thinks someone at home has died. And really what died was the hopes and dreams of DC-EU fans everywhere. Right. Hey, saying that, I don't hate it.

I hate the Batman and Robin movie. Don't get me wrong. But George Clooney is a phenomenal actor. He's a big name, brings a lot of credibility. I could see it working for Brave and the Bull. Well, regardless of the fact whether or not we think George Clooney would make a good Batman, George Clooney is amazing. George Clooney could do anything he wants.

George Clooney is from right across the river from where I grew up. Hi, George, if you're watching, it's good to see you. The point is, though, if he's Batman, it just raises all these questions of like, so, or they're going for a very much older Batman than they were, even though they're rebooting the universe. You know, it's like, so if he's training Damien Wayne, is he going to be Batman or is Dick Grayson going to be Batman? I guess we want to have these questions, but it's a weird choice to make for a rebooted universe to go with an older actor. you know, he's got like, what, 15 years on Ben Affleck? Matt, how about you?

I mean, do you think this is the George Clooney going forward? Are we just getting prank? Is the new DCU going to be a completely different thing with a different flash? What the hell do you think is going on here? I mean, I don't think we're ever going to see George Clooney play Batman again. I mean, I think this was just a one-off. They had the chance to do a, you know, another, yet another surprise cameo.

And that was sort of the, that was the route that they took. Like, I haven't seen that original version that Colton saw, but like I, like I said, I came out of the movie being like, what did people, what, what has happened here? What, someone explained to me what I just saw. And someone explained what that original version. I was like, oh, that's a much better ending than this is because, you know, it's a kind of a fun cliffhanger. And it lets, you know, it sort of punts the ball down the way so that whoever ends up directing. and now we know, I guess, it's going to be Andy Machete again. But, like, whoever is going to make that next Batman,

they get to pick who that Batman is going to be. And I do not think it's going to be George Clooney. George Clooney hated doing Batman, and I don't think he's going to want to do it again. But I just think, it just, it's yet another, like, surprise cameo. Like, again, what is this movie about? And what are we supposed to take away from it?

And how are we supposed to feel? And it seems like adding in George Clooney as one more cameo at the end. It's like, you're just supposed to take away that this was a lot of fun cameos and wacky DC multiverse stuff. And to me, it was like, I actually cared about the Flash. I actually cared about both Barry's Allen in this movie. And so I kind of felt a little betrayed by the ending that became so much about, you know, callbacks and fan service and cameos. It's like, and it's just, I wanted a movie about that. I wanted some more about that

And yeah, I don't think we're going to get Another George Clooney Batman movie I would be absolutely shocked, frankly, if that happened I would be gobsmacked I'm not going to bet anything Because I had a friend who once bet that they'd never make Top Gun 2 and said he'd eat a shoe if they did And they made it and he had to eat a shoe

So I would never, well there you go Like a sandal or like a flip-flop like an entire shoe Oh there's a video You can find it on YouTube goes go oh great can't work YouTube top top gun eating a shoe but look so but I'm not a betting person as a result but I mean I would be shocked if that ever happened shocked I would I would take that well before we go into you I just want a really quick shout out that Matt use the grammatically correct term Barry's Allen I know Matt said he's not a

betting man but if you were I would take that bet here's why the original cut of the had Keaton and her name's escaping me who plays Supergirl they show up yes that great by the way they show up at the courthouse and that is how it ends turns out that moving the can was the one thing that kind of resulted in okay Keaton and Superman and Super Batman and Supergirl were able to survive that battle and they were going to go forward and be the Batman and the Supergirl of the new DCEU before James Gunn came in. This reshoot, that is after James Gunn came in. I do not see James Gunn saying, hey, let's throw in George Clooney. That'll be fun when he knows that he's going to be bringing in a new Batman. I think they specifically cut that Keaton

scene because he knew they didn't want to do that. That wasn't the plan anymore. He's bringing in a new Superman. That wasn't the plan anymore. He knows he's doing a new Batman. I do not see James Gunn okaying, cutting the perfect ending that I saw at CinemaCon if George Clooney is not going to be the new Batman. I don't see him okaying that. The only way I see him okaying George Clooney being the Batman that shows up at the end is if that's who they've decided to go with for their new Batman. But there is another option here. Here's the flip side. You're assuming we're ever going to see this flash and this universe again.

Exactly. That may be the literal last moment you ever see anyone in that universe, I guess with the exception of the movies that are coming out. I know there's, right, there's, you know, there's Aquaman and stuff. But like, I don't know that we're ever going to see this flash again, right? And so if that's the case, what does it matter who the Batman of that universe is? Right. And when James Gunn outlined, the new character's,

for the DC, the new movies and projects for the DCU, a few of them were things that had come before. Amanda Waller, some of the peacemaker characters, I think Peacemaker Season 2 was a go. So you have those people, but then everybody else didn't have to be tied to this continuity at all. But if that's the case, why include a meaningless post-credit scene with Jason Mamoa's Aquaman at the very end, showing him with Ezra Miller's Barry Allen? And if you want to end it with just a gag, we're not seeing it again, then why have a post-credit scene, Ezra Miller alongside Mamoa, who is continuing as Aquaman? And as James Gunn said, is part of this DCU that he's doing with Aquaman 2.

Is it? I didn't know that. I mean, it's like, to me, I don't really, I don't, it doesn't, I don't get the sense that there's a grand design in the ending of this movie. It feels like a lot of cameos, and we should, you know, here's, like we've included, we've got Ben Affleck, we've got Gal Gadot, let's put Jasonamo in. Like, it didn't feel like we've got to ensure the ongoing continuity because people are wondering, is Aquaman still around? It was like, here's a fun little scene. Well, the worst thing about this is that we're still saying what the hell is going on, because after this movie, right?

this is this is it flashpoint right from the comics golden opportunity for somebody to come in and be like let's clearly establish the new order the new pecking order the new universe right and you could do it like colton said you had that one scene who the heck is that it did it perfectly right but the fact that we're still going wait what is bad because we've been doing that with the dc e u for a very long time like wait which is wait what the hell happened to justice league was it which ones can is it the Snyder cut and it's a weird universe like is Shazam even part of it why it's so totally totally different and James Gunn and his announcement was well I'll use the word cagey here he was kind of cagey about it because he would he specifically said the Batman is else worlds but then he was

like and the Shazam movies are doing a great thing kind of off on their own which means they could be part of the DCU if they make money or they're off in a different universe and we're never going to hear from them again so I think that DC from Warner Brothers is still kind of playing a wait-and-see approach to this kind of thing. They want to see if the Flash is a mega hit. If Ezra Miller bounces back, they want to see how Aquaman 2 does before whether or not they officially declare this in continuity or not. Which makes sense.

You do kind of want to go off of like reception of a film. You don't want to like force feed things down an audience's throat. But why is it still confusing? I'm still confused. And I know this stuff inside and out. How am I confused? But Gunn did say in that original announcement, he made the point to say, and he said it many times after, the Flash completely resets the DC universe, laying groundwork for, and then he goes on to say, and then we've got Blue Beetle, we've got Aquaman, then we're doing Superman Legacy. And he actually recently came out and said that Blue Beetle is the first DCU character.

That was in that podcast he recently did. I forget what show it was on. So I'll take the position. Does that mean this Barry Allen is not? part of, like, do you mean the Blue Beetle is the first new DCU character? Is that what he was saying? And we have to remember, we have to remember with this. You can recast an actor with it being the same character. I feel like we forget that in like multiverse, like, and how do you do that? Because in universe, Barry is recognizing that Batman looks different. But then if we were to do just a regular out of universe recast, the rules become a little weird. in terms of how that would work. But I'm going to take the position.

I think it's going to be Clooney. I think it is. All right. Colton Ogburn, where can the people find you? You can find me at Colton Ogburn on Twitter and videos over here on Screencrush. And Matt Singer, where can the people find you? You've got lots more stuff about The Flash

at Screencrush.com, and my Twitter handle is at Matt Singer. Excellent. But we want to hear from all of you guys. What did you think of the Flash? What do you think about George Clooney as Batman? Is it real or not? Let us all know in the comments below or you can add any of us on Twitter.

And if it's your first time here, hey, welcome the channel. My cat welcomes you. Please subscribe, smash that bell for alerts. For Screen Crush, I'm Ryan Erie.