Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #190: The dual national dilemma with Herc Gomez

Episode Date: August 9, 2021

The latest news on the dual national front is that David Ochoa, the promising young Mexican-American goalkeeper who’s played for the US youth national teams since he was an adolescent and was the starter on the Olympic qualifying roster, is likely to switch and play for Mexico. Joining the pod to talk about the dual national dilemma is Herculez Gomez.Here's how to support the podcast...Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedDiscord: https://discord.gg/ayz9QekfeRMerch: https://my-store-11446477.creator-spring.com/ Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the scuffed podcast. I'm Adam Bells in Georgia. With me is Greg Velasquez in Iowa. We talk about U.S. men's soccer. The latest news on the dual national front is that David Achoa, the promising and charismatic young Mexican-American goalkeeper who's played for the U.S. youth national team since he was an adolescent and was a starter on the Olympic qualifying roster and is now a starter for Real Salt Lake is likely to switch and play for Mexico. Not confirmed by Echo himself, but reported by credible journalists, including Doug McIntyre. There is the possibility, whispered on social media in the past week, that other U.S.-born players of Mexican descent could make the same decision. In recent years, the U.S. has done well at persuading dual nationals, including Serginio Dest and Eunice Musa to play for the USA. But the success rate is less obvious with Mexican-Americans.

Joining me to talk about this is Hercules Gomez. He's the most decorated Mexican-American attacker in U.S. men's national team history, played a lot in the 2010 World Cup. Won the League of Emeki's golden boot that year for Puebla, has played for almost every club from the North Pole to Guatemala, and now is a commentator all over the ESPN family of television stations. Welcome, Herc. Thanks for doing this. I'm excited. It's good to finally, I guess, E meet you.

Yeah. Good to see your face. So, you know, I want to talk a little bit about the national team and sort of your history with the national team at the end. But the main thing I wanted to cover with you is the dual national dilemma. So when you saw the news about Achoa, what was your reaction? Not surprised, and I don't want that to come off in a negative type of way. But people need to realize how complex being a dual national is in this country, and especially a Mexican-American in today's all just political climate, you know, everything going on,

especially with the rivalry and how it's picked up a notch and pretty much gotten back to where it was in the, you know, early to mid-2000s. So it's, uh, it's not surprising in the sense that, and trust me, because I know, because I am Mexican-American, I was born in this country, I was educating this country. A lot of my opportunities came in this country, but I also lived in Mexico. And my parents also, you know, fought to teach me a lot of the culture and the, you know, what is the costumbras or the, you know, things you do growing up. And my parents, you know, My wife's Mexican, Mexican National. I met her when I was playing in Mexico.

And my kids are, you know, of Mexican parents. So it's unique. So if all things are equal, the love and respect you can have for two different countries. And trust me, I know this because I feel this. If all things are equal, the respect, the values, you know, different things you can take away, the positive and the negative, it almost becomes a business decision. And I know fans hate to hear this. But it's the truth.

And I've spoken to many Mexican Americans of the past and in today's pool who feel exactly the same. That pool, that tug of war, it's almost this feeling of neither here, which is very popular among Chicano's, which means, you know, I don't feel like I'm from here, nor do I feel like I'm from there. You're somewhere in the middle. And it's a tough place to be, especially when you talk about identity. And people forget, these are kids. these are kids you know and to grow up in today's climate and have to make life altering choices and no matter what you do you're going to upset somebody that's a lot to take in so if it becomes a business decision i wasn't too surprised the writing was on the wall you look at zach stephen

26 years old you look at ethan horvatt 26 years old you look at matt turner 27 years old had a lights out tournament, you know, flag, flag on the dirt type of way to make his, you know, announcement that he's here to all these U.S.Ns National Team fans and Greg Verhalter. And you look at the other side and you have Memo Cho, who's 36. You have Alfredo Talavera, who's a goalkeeper at the goal cup, who's 39, going to be 39 soon. You have Jonathan Orozco, who was there as well, who's 35, you know. Rodolfo Kota, who was there as well, who's 34. You're looking at the guys who went to the Olympics

who backed up Memo Choa and they're 23, 24 years old but not a wealth of experience in first division. You may as well go take your chances there. Also, family plays a huge role in this. And, you know, I go back to an interview we did at Football America's with Jonathan Bond, who's the goalkeeper of the LA Galaxy,

who's a dual national himself. He could have been a Welsh international or an English international. And regardless of what you think of his level, if you could have really gotten there or not, he had these choices. he was making at the youth national team level. And, you know, he was telling us how it's difficult when you're 16 and you have to make a

decision and you've got family members telling you one thing. You've got federations telling you another and you get lost in between. You're not mature enough to make these life choices and how one can get caught up in it. So, you know, immediately my train of thought was it's not surprising, but you think of what you're losing. And I say it in a selfish way because I keep hearing, well, none of these players

have made a difference. None of these players have panned out. I mean, Diego Rossi was in his position and Bruce Arena mugged him off. Bruce Arena said, we're not going to go chasing around 18-year-old kids and he turned out to be a very good player.

Christian Polisic could have been in the situation when Croatia. Juergen Clemsman fought for him, you know, and you could say, well, he was already in the program. Oh, so was David Cho-choa, so was Jonathan Gonzalez. So were all these other kids.

So that's not an excuse. There seems to be this train of thought that these Mexican-American kids just don't pan out, so let them go. And that's disheartening. You think that train of thought is present at soccer house, like at U.S. soccer a little bit? A little, yeah. But maybe not the Greg Berhalter crew. I'm going to give Greg Berthelter a ton of credit. I think he's been immense in this dual national team or dual national player recruitment, if you will, because that's what it is.

I mean, I spoke about the love that a dual national happy for two different countries. So you start making business decisions and fans hate that. Patriots hate that. I get it. But they'll never be in the shoes of these kids. They'll never know what it's like to have love for two different countries. To have two different sets of friends, two different sets of cultures, the privilege that comes with that. So it's difficult.

But I do think that the old guard definitely had that mentality. These kids won't pan out. these kids don't pan out. History has taught us that. So why go after them? Greg Berhalcher has honestly gone about things in such a great way where he doesn't pressure these kids to make these decisions. He invites him in.

Efraina Alvarez was part of that El Salvador camp. You know, against El Salvador, he was there. He got to hang out with the U.S. men's national team and see how they work and how they operate. He got to see how a bunch of his peers are on this side of it. You know, David Ochoa, David was with the Concapped Nations League. He was in the final, you know. he was there for the Costa Rica versus U.S. game in his hometown, in his stadium.

So I commend Greg Berhalter and what he's doing, what he's done not only with these Hispanic-American kids, but, you know, the Serginio deaths of the world, you know, that player. It's interesting you say that because it seems to me he's done really well with the non-Mexican-American dual nationals. I'm not criticizing him so much here, but it's like that's the Mexican-American dual nationals that are the sort of unanswered question so far. Yeah, a lot of that has to do, Adam, with the makeup of our country and where we are today. You know, it's a lot of political views and then the rivalry gets, it gets murky with the rivalry and it gets murky with patriots and what they may feel is a love for one's country

or disrespect for another. Everything gets blurred. And these kids are somewhere in the middle where, excuse me, where they're used to being, that's a sad part. They're used to being somewhere in the middle, you know, you'll be hard pressed to find a culture where they feel criticized by both, not Mexican enough for one, not American enough for another, where they feel caught in between. And these are identity issues that, listen, many of us aren't who we were in high school, aren't who we were as teenagers, and had tons of identity issues and tons of,

I need to come in terms with what I want, who I am, et cetera, et cetera. Now magnify that at a public level. Every move is being dissected, where you're being scrutinized and criticized for trying to figure out who you are. And it's okay to have love for Mexico if you're American, to have love for, you know, the states, if you're of Mexican origin.

There is no right and wrong answer with this. And that's what I think people get caught up in. I run into so many sets of fans. They're like, oh, dude, I'm a huge fan of you. You know, why don't you play for Mexico? And in the same family, U.S. men's national team fan. Like, dude, I'm a huge U.S. men's national team, you know, a fan. But they're in my family, huge Mexico fans.

There's these subdivisions and, well, that's what it is. It's divisions of fans that get caught up. things. The business case for Ochoa, you know, if it's a cold, if it's like a cold business rationale, there's like, there's a little bit, seems like there's a little bit more of an opening in, in the Mexico national team than the U.S. national team at the moment. I guess I wonder, sounds like you're, you're sort of persuaded by that case. I guess my, my question about the pragmatic case is why make the decision now when you know memo, memo, Mamo, Ochoa is going to get all the meaningful minutes leading up to and into the World Cup? Why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why,

wait, you know? That, that's, the pragmatic case seems to break down a little bit there for me. Yeah. And I don't think it's as cut and dry as we're making it out to be. I'll give you an example of Ricardo Pepe, you know, and whoever wrote the article has to forgive me, but they were talking about his future. I forget where I saw it. And Ricardo Pepe spoke about what Greg Berthalter had planned out for him. Greg Berthor's pitch, which was, I see you here, I see you playing this way, I see you developing. And nowhere along the lines does he mention a World Cup, right? In the same breath, a few paragraphs later, Mexico's talking.

He's like, yeah, and Mexico talked to me about the opportunity of playing in Qatar at the World Cup. You're 18 years old. You've got this carrot being dangled in front of you. Your family members grew up in Mexico where there is no NFL, there is no NBA, there is no major. League Baseball, there's no Hollywood, it's politics and footballers. Those are the people who you see on TV. If you're a male growing up in Mexico, chances are heavy chances, 90-something percent chances that you grew up wanting to be a footballer, that your weekends, your weekdays revolved around playing soccer or watching soccer. So you see these idols of yours growing up

and now your son can become one. And you see what the U.S., how they treat footballers here, and I say with the utmost respect, you know, there are more important things in soccer. But in the state soccer players aren't important. You know, I've been in Mexico as a Mexican-American, U.S. men's national team player, playing for teams like Santos,

playing for teams like Tigris. You're a celebrity there. You can't go out. People will come and demand pictures autographs that talk to you, there are crowds, there is no personal life, it's very paparazzi like, you see this. In one sector, that's what it is. And the other sector is still growing.

You have to go to Europe to get, you have to go elsewhere to get this type of experience or exposure. So you almost already lean one way if you're the family members of these players. So now you have this carrot being dangled in front of you and family pressure for a better lack of the word. And I go look at EFRA situation. His father's been talking to the Mexican Federation. for God knows how long.

That's a lot of pressure for you to deal with at 18 years old. So that's why it's not as cut and dry as, you know, a business decision there. Well, that raises two questions for me. So is that surmountable for the U.S. Soccer Federation? Like, not only you're talking about being a celebrity as a club player, then the national team, the Mexican national team is far in a way more popular in this country than the U.S. men's national team. So how's U.S. soccer ever going to compete with that?

It's not about competing. It's about leveling the playing field. So they have their family members, right? The U.S. men's national team program sent out Thomas Rangan to look for Jonathan Gonzalez. And then Thomas Rangan lied about being in his house multiple times. Oh, I've met with them. I was in his house. We outlined a program.

and the lied word upset the family so much that they contacted me, his family, sought me out because I work for ESPN, because I speak Spanish. I don't know who that person is. I said, are you sure? I think I would know who comes into my house, who comes into my home, they told me. All right, I reported it. Thomas Rangan apologizes. I never actually was at his house.

We're sending Thomas Rangan as a federation to reach these kids. Landon Donovan would have been a hell of a better choice. to pick up a phone. Yeah, Rockin's like, what, 70 years old? They had Jonathan Gonzalez. He's Dutch. Yeah, exactly. Forget about that.

Let's just reach these kids for a second. They had Jonathan Gonzalez and his family. The Mexican Federation, Dennis Declosa, outlined a program for him at the senior national team level and his involvement when he's 17 years old, and the Mexican national team coach, Juan Carlos Osorio, spoke to him about that involvement. you have Thomas Rangan going

some guy who they've never met who they don't know who they can't relate to Landon Donovan every Mexican fan knows picks up a phone that family's going to be like that that father or that family's going to be yeah I'll take your phone call absolutely

I want to hear what you have to say absolutely where is representation at that level to reach these kids that's the difference yeah I want to get more into that for sure The other question is if they're dangling the carrot of the World Cup to Ricardo Pepe, who, you know, is having a good season, I don't know that he is, I'm not sure,

I'm ready to say he's going to compete with Roe Jimenez and, you know, Rahel Yafunas Mori at this point. Doesn't that feel a little predatory? Like, of course, but also that, and this is maybe off subject, but Mexico's ninth position is probably worse than the U.S. men's national They're both equally a mess. There is no clear-cut front-runner. And take it for a guy who played zero World Cup qualifying minutes that cycle and then went to a World Cup.

Four words are about being hot. Hot hand. And Ricardo Pepe's scoring goals at 18, signs a Sierra contract, keeps scoring goals. He's in that picture 18 months from now for any country. That's just easy for me to say. It's very different position, very different things. but it does seem predatory with a player who's played zero senior national team minutes. You promise a World Cup.

Yes, it does. But they are trying to get these players. They are trying to heavily recruit these players. They see what's going on with the U.S. and the pool and the benefits that the U.S. has of expanding that pool, whether it's less roadblocks for these players to go to Europe because their club situation doesn't limit that. In Mexico, there's a very inflated internal market and they're not participants in the global market.

So when these teams see the prices for these players at their ages, Rodo Pizarro, they want, we have 26 years old, they wanted like 20 million for them to go to Europe. Spanish clubs are like, you're crazy. I'm not paying that. No way. you know, Orbelinim Pineda, who's about to sign a pre-contract with Selt de Vigo, that's the only way he can go because Chiva sold him to Crusasou

at an internal market a few years ago for 13 million. You know, these clubs in Europe are like, there's no chance I'm paying for that. Whereas Weston McKinney goes on a free, Chris Richards, you know, Justin Che, like, Chee, there's different ways, mechanisms, Brian Reynolds of getting these players, John Luke Cabuzio, of getting these players of Bard, you know, Tanner Testman, whatever you may want, there's different. different ways of getting these players abroad. Then you have other cases like Giovanni Raina,

you know, multiple passports, European passport. Same thing with Christian Polisic. These kids are going to get chances because they have different ways of getting chances. Mexican players, right, as good as they are at the youth national team level, they are world power. There's no doubt about it in my mind. They've got more roadblocks to get there. And that market is one of them.

So it definitely is a roadblock forum. It can get definitely murky. Okay. Well, so back to like U.S. soccer's responsibility because I think that's like sort of the core question for a lot of fans is, is this a U.S. soccer problem or is it something that, you know, U.S. soccer can't do that much about. You're talking about outreach, like not sending Thomas Rangan rather than him,

maybe sending somebody with a little more credibility in the Mexican-American community. Is there, you know, there's also this talk of a cultural issue or bias against Mexican-American players, which you sort of referenced a little earlier as the old guard. Is that still real, you know? Like, can you speak to that, like sort of head-on a little bit? I can't speak to that really head-on with the current regime. But you look at the old regime and Jonathan Gonzalez and, A few other kids spoke out about their treatment at the youth national team level,

how they were reprimanded for speaking Spanish amongst each other, you know, during a training camp. How, how, uh, uh, Ritchie, excuse me, I'm drawing a blank on his last name. What is that guy's name? Ritchie, um, is like arena's assistant. Yeah, Williams. How Ritchie Williams had a few issues with some of the Mexican-American players, how they felt not treated in a respectful manner. Hugo Perez and his dealings with U.S. soccer and you see the great things he's doing. And he's El Salvadoran, great things he's doing,

El Salvadoran American, the great things he is doing with the El Salvadoran national team. Just different ways of saying, like, maybe we've ostracized a certain sector. Maybe we've not made him feel so inclusive in a sport that, quite frankly, isn't inclusive in this country. You know? We've got huge issues with not just the,

Mexican-American player, but, you know, lower-income families and their ability to have their children be part of this umbrella that is U.S. soccer youth, you know. It's not easy. The African-American player, you know, I'm sure if you talk to Gouche or DeMarcus, they'll have their own issues. It just seems like at times, not only as a country, but as a sport, we've proven that we're not as inclusive as we thought. Does it feel, this is a little bit of a leading question, but does it feel to you like every time this happens, you know, another young Mexican-American player chooses to play for Mexico, it entrenches this state of affairs?

Because it seems to me like what could break this? Like a Mexican-American star, you know, on the U.S. men's national team, a land Donovan-level star. And if everybody keeps choosing Mexico, then we're never going to get that, you know? You know what? It seems that Mexico's taking the approach of, like, let's cap them, and then we'll figure out if they're good or not, you know, which, which can seem predatory. But if you're the player, you take advantage of that opportunity and it's life-changing,

you know, it really is. The most popular soccer team in the United States is the Mexican national team. By far, by far, the most popular league, league in Mexico, not Champions League, not the Premier League, not La Liga, et cetera, et cetera. It's these two properties. So it's a life-changing thing for these kids, the opportunity. So it's like predatory I wanted. Yeah, sure, but it's also a life-changing opportunity if you can take advantage of it.

So what's going to change? The moment that one of these kids blows up, Raul Jimenez-style, Chuky Losano style, Christian Polisic style, you know, Joe Raina style. That's when all of a sudden, both sides and they make, oh, look at this, and it's going to intensify. I'm a firm believer that the best players should play for their country. Like it shouldn't be like you should have a certain amount of designated spots

for a certain sector of cultures or backgrounds. But the opportunity should be equal. And that's where we're lacking. Yeah. I mean, I'd like to say quickly how I come at it because, you know, even though I have a reputation as being someone who panics when there's a national situation. We don't talk about it on the podcast very much.

And I just want to say, like, I don't, I see these two reactions either. Like, this is primarily U.S. soccer's fault for not doing enough. I know there's truth to that. I don't think it's the whole story. And then there's also people who say, fine, let him go. We don't need him anyway. And I definitely don't, you know, I want us to have a Mexican-American star. I almost think we should go out of our way to, like, try to make that happen as a long

term play. That's just me talking as a fan because this issue's not going away, you know? Right. You know, it's just, yeah, it's not going away. And I'm sure having that star would kind of open some eyes. But I go back to that opportunity, you know, and why is, why are these players so valuable to one federation, but not, and I don't want to say they're not valuable to the States, the U.S. that would be unfair. I think Rex has been doing a very good job. but there seems to be a disconnect somewhere along the way, you know? If all things are equal, where does that falter? Where is that miscommunication?

You know, why, when push comes to shove, are more going that way? Yeah. So on the other side, you know, Hugo Sanchez, Hugo Sanchez sort of famously called out Funis Mori for not being a native-born Mexican during the Gold Cup and how much should U.S.-born Mexican-Americans be concerned about that type of treatment by fans in the press if they join El Trie? I'd say very good point. It's a very loaded question because we're talking about xenophobia.

We're talking about ignorance. We're talking about an old guard. Hugo Sanchez is entitled to his opinion. Very wrong opinion. if you're Mexican, you're Mexican, if you have a passport, you legally can play for that country, you can pay your taxes in that country, you can pay your respects to that country, you are Mexican. The law says it, that's the way it is. FIFA says you can do it, that's the way it is.

There is no divide on who's more Mexican-esque, you know, like there is no divide on who's more American-esque. No, it's a privilege and an honor to represent your country. and for somebody who's done it, it's surprising. I know Hugo, and Hugo is also self-serving in that sense. He wants to put the onus and the blame on the coach. The coach is the one who called him up. The coach is the one who went down this route because he feels a Mexican national coach to be Mexican.

He feels he should be there, I should say. So it's self-serving as well, but there are a lot of people with the same train of thought. A lot of people who are diehard Chivas fans who are like, nope, 100% Mexican who have no idea that Isaac Prisuela was born in San Jose. Miguel Ponce, born in Sacramento, you know, there's a, and you could say, oh, but they're of Mexican parents when they find out, right? But there is a sense of being 100% pure in their eyes in many of this fandom's eyes. But I think a lot of that is old guard. I think there are a lot of new fans, and I see a lot of this on my social, fans who follow me on both sides who understand the world's changing, you know.

Not only is it world changing, but football in general is changing. It's more globalized. It's less borders. It's more open-minded. It's ever-evolving. And I think they realize that. They see that. So many are eager to see their stuff.

stars go abroad. Whereas the old guard's like, why? We're just as good here. You know, why are we going to give these players away? If they want them, they should pay what they're worth, you know, like $20 million, which is not ever going to happen. So there seems to be a shift in that when it comes to the new age fandom. But still, you could feel it. I felt it when I lived in Mexico. It's almost like I would get called gringo a lot, Ocho a lot. And it's almost like you're there, gringo. and then you prove yourself, or sorry, you're a gringo

and then you prove yourself, but then it's like, he's my gringo, you know? To this day, I have a lot of Mexican fans who, you could ask Sebastian Salazar. We went to the World Cup 2018. And Sebastian jokes that he was my personal photographer because all the pictures I took were with Mexican fans, you know, and they have a, for as much as one would think it's like a hate,

it's like a playful, you know, giving and take kind of relationship with me. they've been very respectful to me and they're very good fans and they take pictures, they want to talk to you, you know, they want to know about their national team, their club players,

et cetera, et cetera, about our club players, you know. So it's getting better, but you definitely can't feel a divide. You definitely can't feel a different vibe from certain sectors, which I'm sure you don't have to be not of the Mexican nationals to feel the same kind of divide

and sometimes hate if you live in the states from certain sectors. You know, it's unfortunate part of the world we live in today. I just have some Mexican-American buddies online who they always say, you know, these guys have no idea what they're stepping into if they go and play for L3. It's going to be rougher than they imagined. It may be, yeah, I could see that.

And listen, this is the world that a lot of Mexican-Americans live in, that in-between world, you know. not here, you don't feel like you're from here nor there. You know, you grow up a certain way where if you spoke a certain way, you were accused of acting white, you know? And also with your American,

why are you Mexican? You were born here type of deal, you know? So it's very much, you know, there's a scene in the movie Selena where Edward James almost is trying to explain what it is to be Mexican-American and he ultimately comes off with it's exhausting you know trying to keep up with both sides and it really is at time you know you have to be more mexican than the mexicans and more american than the americans just to

kind of try to fit in you can't just be you and when you're you you know outcome the insults the accusations and and these kids feel it i mean look at the hate that the vitrolet and hate that davido choa has gotten online you know um the instagram stuff those those comments on Instagram. Yeah. It's horrible. It's sickening. And how, you know, I was in, I was in Columbus for the 2-1 Mexico win. You know, I was still an active player playing for the Seattle Sounders and working for Fox at the time. I'd go and, you know, work games when it was a FIFA fixture date. I worked these windows with Fox. And I remember it was right after the election when Donald Trump won,

right after the election. And Ohio was a huge, massive swing state. I still recall to build the build the wall chance you know from the stands that night yeah that's a shitty thing to hear that's a shitty thing to feel you know yeah you know and i didn't know that yeah and i i've seen the hate from some mexican fans towards american you know using americans of you know all these crazy things so it goes both ways but it's it's this crazy and i'm sure it's not the only culture to feel it but It's a crazy way of feeling like you're stuck in between. Yeah, that's sobering to hear that. I didn't know that about the build a wall chant.

I remember the players all sort of stood together at the beginning of the game. And that was, you know, I was as sort of surprised as anyone that Donald Trump was elected president. And seeing that was a comforting sight, you know, I thought that's good to see them standing together like that. But apparently it wasn't all, it wasn't all good. And I've seen the, the show. gift than the rivalry, there's more respect for one another because I played with these guys. I played with Osvaldo Sanchez and Santos, Chato Rodriguez. I've played with some big Mexican stars. And they have one way of viewing the U.S. men's national team as that team they used

to always stop. And then all of a sudden, they were hurt. 2002 World Cup comes and they get like that bucket of ice thrown at them. Like it's a wake-up call. But this new generation has been in this very competitive environment with the U.S. men's national team. So they respect them. more. There is less of that hate or that animosity off the field. On the field, it's a rivalry. But there's more of that mutual respect between others, you know, whereas that old guard, it's not there. But this new guard, I think it is there. I've spoken to Hector Moreno. I've spoken to Miguelayune. You know, I've interviewed these guys a lot. And they get it. They understand what it is today. And because they've been outside of Mexico, they've been outside

in Europe, they get to see different things. They're exposed to different cultures. They're exposed to different trains of thoughts, different methodologies, you know, different ways of looking at what is the actual, I guess, football scenario. So they're less inclined to be so, I don't want to say patriotic about it, but so, like, divided about it. Yeah, I see a lot of good vibes between Moreno and, like, Burrhalter. They seem to, like, have some kind of relationship.

They're always, like, patting each other on the back. Awesome individuals. Like all those guys, Hector Moreno, Miguel Ayun, I mean, Miguel Ayun was close to playing with San Jose. You know, they're absolutely, you know, chomping at the bit to get that taste of what is Major League Soccer, the American life, for them, for their family,

to be somewhere where maybe the sport is looked at in a different way, a more fun way, you know. They get it. They understand. And there's nothing to do with pressure. There's nothing to do with them taking the easy route. they're just they've seen what the sport can do good and bad and they want something else for their life going forward and these are millionaires these are millionaires who get treated like kings

in Mexico you know but you could definitely feel the shift in the way they view the American player and the rivalry so you you've said in the past u.s soccer hasn't contacted you to help to you know to help with this sort of outreach you've signaled that you'd be willing to Is that still the case? You still haven't been contacted. I've never signaled that I'd be willing to. Oh, okay. My bet.

You know, I'm selfishly, I'm in a very comfortable position with ESPN, and I feel privileged to work at the worldwide leader. I'm in this gray area of my own where I get to go back and forth between Spanish and English. You know, Spanish and Aura Nunkah, where I host a sports show and in English, you know, FC and Football America. and whatever, you know, installments of Major League Soccer, U.S. Ms. Nounsh team or Leagues Cup, if you will, properties that we do,

I feel very good where I'm at. But I also understand that I'm in a very unique position where I'm one of the handful of players that got into experience both, you know, and could really go inside the mind of these families and these players, because I know what it was like. I know what it was like to leave when I was 18

and go look for an opportunity and not have it not pan out, play lower divisions, Mexico and I know what it was like to be in the States and playing Major League Soccer. I know what it was like to be successful in Mexico. I know what it was like to represent my country in a World Cup, Club World Cup, Cop America. I know what it's like to see players in Latin America who at 12, 13 years old are headed their household and have huge responsibilities.

I know what it's like to be on a team and a club team where all my teammates played at private school, you know, we're very well off. I was one of three kids who wasn't angle, who wasn't white. So I know all these different complexities of what is both these cultures in the footballing landscape. And I think somebody, not me in general, but somebody like me in my position or my history, can say, I know the fears and the doubts you're having for your child. I know how scary it is for you to come to this country, not having anything.

and do something with your life, and now your child has an opportunity where you think it could be life-changing. I don't want these kids to play for the U.S. or play for Mexico. That's where people get confused. I can honestly tell you I don't care where they play. I want the Mexican-American player

to have all the opportunities that their parents fought for. So whether that's playing college, whether that's using your footballing skills to get an education, whether that's going to play in league and mech, whether that's going to play in major league soccer, whether that's going to represent the U.S.

men's national team or Mexico, I want them to be successful. Because I don't want this talk of, nothing happens with these kids. Ultimately, they're not good enough. And I've heard the stuff from the Mexican Federation about me, and sadly I've heard the things that they say in the U.S. Soccer Federation about me,

things that get back to me, from current players, from media, et cetera, et cetera. I almost feel like there's a boycott with some members of the U.S. Soccer Federation against my person because I'm one of the few people that's been openly willing to criticize them and to not back down from criticizing them. So easily, we get denied interviews. If it shows that I'm on, we get denied access.

I've heard jokes from other media members that they'll give it to ESPN as long as I'm not alongside that from people that I know with in U.S. soccer that they think will never give back to me that gets back to me. I've heard things that get back to me like, well, why is he playing this side when he was with us type of deal? It goes both ways. So, you know, there's a lot of things I would love to change about U.S. soccer. And I would be dying for somebody like a Jose Torres to have an opportunity there,

you know, who's literally been on both sides of that, recruited from the Mexican national team, Mexican Olympic team and then went to the States. You know, and Omar Gonzalez when he's done, who got to experience briefly what it was like to play in Mexico, Joe Corona when he's done, you know, these players just to present some sort of value, you know,

representation matters, and we can't just choose and pick and choose when it matters. That stuff about them freezing you out is, as Kobe would say, soft. Well, it doesn't matter. You know what the great thing is, I work for ESPN, so they ultimately can't. frees me out. And I'm in a position where even if they call my bosses, my bosses don't care

in me. My bosses do not care. You know, they laugh about it when they're being called about whatever. And I've had discussions with Greg Berhalter myself. Greg, to his credit, and I have to give him a ton of credit. He will challenge you, but in a respectful way, and he presents his data and he presents his thoughts. And honestly, I can't say a negative thing about him off the field that way. I wish more coaches would have taken that approach a long time ago. Bob Bradley is one of the few who took an approach like that, right? And I've had my, and I love Bob, but I've also had my run-ins with Bob where, you know, we did this, you know,

and I'm like, of course, but one program for a few years does this. It doesn't mean it's fixed, you know, and he was great about doing things like that. But we've got to change the train the thought internally. We've got to change the way we do things. Like we had to change a bunch of things after we didn't qualify after, I shouldn't say we, after the U.S. men's nationally didn't qualify because I'm part of the press. I like when you say we, yeah.

You know, it drives me nuts when I hear on telecast, we, us, you know. So because then you're not being impartial. But U.S. National team, the program has to do how to do a ton of things after it didn't qualify. That was, you know, not qualifying. It was just kind of, it was a crazy thing to happen, but it was almost a way, like, we were papering over cracks for so long. It was bound to happen type of deal.

And it happened. And look, you know, now you've built up one of the best generations so far, on paper, at least in the program. history. Well, one last thing about that. You've talked about a lot of different things that the soccer federation could do, but like, what's, what can fans do to put pressure on the federation to thoughtfully and strategically battle this perception that Mexican American players are unwelcome?

It's not just perception, obviously. There's, there's reality to it, to some extent, in some ways. You could voice your opinion. You could boycott games, not pay the ticket prices. You can, you know, whatever you want. You can do, but do something. Let's not just be those people who talk about it, you know. And quite frankly, crazy enough, a lot of these U.S.

men's national accounts that you see online who've got like, you know, a thousand followers, like out of nowhere who are posting videos, we're doing this and that, who have got like their little voices. A lot of those people, oddly enough, pop up in my page, typing in Spanish. And, you know, they're Mexican-American or they're Hispanic-American. It's crazy to me. And I'm like, whoa, there's a whole new generation of U.S. men's national fans that we should not ignore,

that we should not make feel different or ostracize them. You know, we should celebrate. And, you know, not just one month out of the year, not just September 15th through October 15. Let's really, let's really understand these people and what they're going through. Because it's a unique culture. And I do think that where the U.S. has an advantage is,

Mexico kind of doesn't recognize that yet, you know, like the fandom of it. Mexico would be doing so much more in their social media accounts because that's a way of reaching these kids today, you know, because their social media is so big of getting somebody on their English account. And in the same breath, the U.S. could do the same thing. How long has it been inactive, the Spanish one? You used to be called the Eliquo de Tos, you know, everybody's team, sure doesn't feel that way. It's funny you mentioned a lot of those little USMNT accounts because those people, those folks are some of the most combative too, you know, like with El Trifeng. It's war.

I love it. I love it. And it's funny because I look at how these things pop up online and a lot of it's media. It's like it's like the press in Mexico who was kind of given this like, I don't know to say banter. It's almost like they want the reaction and we fall into it at times. You know, the fandom here falls into this trap and they get the response they want, but they're foot soldiers and they're coming everywhere and they're bringing receipts. And, you know, it's fun to see because, I mean, you were at the same age, Adam.

When in our lifetime do you recall there being so much interest in the U.S. Men's Nationals? I mean, I don't know, man, because it feels like we were filling stadiums back when you were playing, you know, filling big stadiums, right? So. Yeah, we're filling stadiums. But we weren't getting the recognition we have on FC today. I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Social media, you weren't trending topics for a Gold Cup with a C team. You know what I mean? Right. It just feels different. It feels like there's something going on and movement going on. And I remember when I started playing and I would start having members of the press really coming up to me and asking me questions. and about the U.S. men's national team. And I always say, because it was like kind of low-hanging fruit,

one day they're going to be so good because it's going to be like an all-star team of the world. That's what I would say. It's going to be a collection of all these different cultures, all these different backgrounds, all these different styles of play, and you're going to pick the best from here and pick the best from there,

and it's going to be that way. So I think eventually it's going to be a really good team. Kind of feels like we're onto something. Like we're getting there. We're on the doorstep. And I don't want to get ahead of myself because this team, honestly, I have not one sec, for one second,

spent talking about the level here. They played like garbage in two different tournaments and one of both. That's the reality. That's the reality. You know, what we were promised we have yet to receive. We were promised this DNA,

we're promised a brand, a style of play. What we got was the U.S. Men's National Team of Old, winning mentality, which I'm not against. Finals are meant to be won, not to be played. That's a big saying in Mexico.

And las Finalees, is it. Se ganan, no they're a huge proponent in that. You win finals. But they didn't play well. But they also didn't play well with the C team and beat Mexico's 18.

You know, so we got to obviously give props for us to, but I want to see where this can go. Because the fandom is diverse. The players are becoming more diverse and they're getting recognition globally. Now I want to see where this can go. And it starts now. It is true, but it's true that the players are diverse, but I think out of these two, yeah, more diverse, out of these two rosters, Nations League and Gold Cup, the only, I'm pretty sure the only Mexican Americans are David Choa, who's going to reportedly play for Mexico, and Paul Ariola, who's, you know, I love him, he's a great, he's a great player for the team, but that's one out of like 50, you know, and that's not.

we gotta get better at that. Yeah, sidebar, I was Paula Riala's coach for like half a year in San Diego when he was seven years old. Seriously? Yeah, and he was my roommate at Cholos when we're on the road, his rookie year. A great kid who's overcome a lot and I can be more proud of. But you're right, you know, he's, that's the only one. And again, I repeat, I'm all for the best players playing. but when you see a country

with so many Mexican immigrants and so many Mexican, you know, of Mexican heritage residents, you ask yourself, why can't there be more? You know, California alone, the millions of Mexicans that live here,

I mean, Los Angeles is the second most, you know, populated city with Mexicans in the world, in the world. So it makes you question, where are these players? you know um yeah and it we we definitely need to question that more and us soccer net definitely

needs to do a better job of that if they value the player if they value the community um it's something to look into if you don't value the player or the community business as usual let me ask you three quick non-dual national questions in this in this in this iteration of the national team we hear a lot about familiarity with burhalter with the program and how important that is you sort of alluded to this earlier, but your national team experience was sort of the opposite of that. You played in the Copa America in 2007, and then your next call-up comes three years later, and it's basically, hey, get on the plane to South Africa. So what challenges did that present for you, and how did you and Bob Bradley and the staff

manage your integration into the team as the hot hand forward, you know? Right. That's a unique situation. Let me give my respect to Bob Bradley. Bob's one of the smartest guys you will meet. Not necessarily the easiest guy to figure out on the field, but his approach and the way he builds a team is very unique, and I found it to be very enriching in a lot of ways.

So I get called up to Copa America, and my first cap comes against Argentina, ridiculous Argentina team, Messi, Riquelme, Crespo, Teves, you know, IMA, Heinz, you know, Marcherano, a ridiculous amount of insane players. And then I tower my ACL and I have what a lot of players my age who are late bloomers or just getting their first taste professional soccer, you know, have an injury or an offseason,

where things don't go your way or et cetera, et cetera, just a little wave in your career where you've got to bounce back. Nowhere in the national team picture. Charlie Davies has an unfortunate accident. He's out of World Cup contention. Bob had been using up into that moment, Charlie, he'd be using Connor Casey,

who was instrumental of getting the team to the World Cup and World Cup qualifying, and he had a goal versus Honduras. that was huge for them. He had been using, I believe, Eddie Johnson to an extent, Brian Ching, just a rotation of players during Concorda World Cup cycle. I didn't get called up once.

I wasn't in the picture, understandably, for what I had not been doing up at that moment. I lead Mexico and goals, tied to this guy named Javier Hernandez, you know, for the goal scoring boot. My name gets thrown out there. I go to the 30-man camp.

and I knew that if I had a chance of making this team, I would have to pretty much be top in everything I did, whether it was finishing, whether it was fitness, whether it was. I just had to be top because I was taking somebody's place who, quite frankly, was there the whole time. You know? Get an opportunity to play,

coming as a sub at halftime, score against Peter Check. You know, Bob starts kind of seeing me as a super sub role. So for Bob, it was two things. How can I use them? And how is he with the group? You know? And Bob wanted players that fit in with the group, no, regardless of where they were.

Just so happened that these players that he chose were African American, were Mexican American, you know, Texans, Californians, like all walks of life. But they got along. It was never groups here, groups there. Like the group genuinely got along. Even the 30 he invited the camp, genuinely. got along. He was very good about building a team and what the character of that team meant. So from that aspect, it just seemed like it was very easy to be part of that team, part of that group.

And I give up credit. He's a master of that. He's a master of taking different walks of life and kind of maybe not him directly getting to you, but whether it's Sorber, Jesse Marsh, Zach Abdel, you know, Pierre, who was there, the fitness trainer, his crew, somehow getting them, you and the rest of the team on the same page. And, you know, that's maybe we didn't have, I don't want to say talent because that's unfair, we're still the only team that's ever won a World Cup group in U.S. Midlands Nationals history, you know? Maybe on paper, you look at today's generation, you're like, Dortmund, Chelsea,

Barsa, you know, city, like, better generation. But that was a team. You know, that's, I've been on some teams for a lot of teams, and it's not always the case where you find a team, where you find guys willing to die for each other on the field, and that was a case. Well, I mean, the Algeria match, which you started, is probably the most iconic, you know, national team game of my lifetime.

I mean, obviously beating Mexico in 2002 was big, too, but, but I mean, for a lot of younger fans, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's it right there, you know. Yeah, yeah, everybody's got their, I guess, game or their tournament where they become a believer. They see the light, right? And for many, it was that 2010 that landed Donovan goal because how it made them feel where they were, whether it was a bar or they're in college or they're in high school and, you know, them jumping up,

them seeing the U.S. men's national going the next round, winning the World Cup, you know, group in a group with England of all teams. I still recall, I think it was a daily mirror, one of those British tab. had easy. England, Algeria, Slovenia, Yanks, you know, when the group came out. And here comes, you know, little old USA and, you know, wins the group. So it's definitely a crazy thing to see, especially if you're a fan. Thanks to that Dempsey Galazzo against England, right?

Last question, what's your starting midfield in the qualifier at El Salvador in less than a month? Oh, okay, starting midfield. I think you would have to go. If it's going to be a 433, which I think Greg will do that. I don't seem going on in the back line of three centerbacks or five. If it's three, you have to go Tyler Adams. Yeah, you have to go Tyler Adams. You have to go Weston McKinney.

And let's see, I want to make sure I don't leave anybody out. Tyler Adams. It could be Musa, Legette, Acosta. What would I do? Or what would Greg do? Maybe give me both. Give me both. I think if Musa is going to play in this region,

and honestly, who knows? He's not going to be fit, so he's probably out of the equation. But if he's going to play in this region, he needs to know what playing in those conditions are like. So I would protect them with Tyler and Weston. but if he's not there, I honestly would go

Tyler Weston, Acosta. I would go Kellan Acosta in that midfield. I did this exercise where I was telling football America, as we said, this is a seed team, and then the Bastian challenges me

to not use any of the Gold Cup players so that's 24 players I can't use and do my A&B lineups, and I did them, and while I was doing this exercise, I realized one thing. If that flights tomorrow for Qatar, Kellen Acosta's on it. Like, there is no depth for Tyler Adams.

Tyler Adams could be one of the most influential players on this nationally, one of the most important players on this national team. And him not being there, wow, it's scary to think of, because what used to be a position of depth for the U.S. men's national team, and U.S. soccer and its history has now gone razor thin. It's Tyler Adams, Kellyn Acosta, and then there's a huge drop from the rest. Huge. Huge.

So that's the position of work. So I honestly, playing on the road, El Salvador, I would love an Adams Acosta, Weston McKinney triangle. I like it. I like it. We talk about having a triple pivot someday. We're trying to, we're trying to speak into the cosmos. And all those players are extremely mobile, you know, like box to box.

So the opportunities are endless. You also just, you need guys who have to learn very quickly what Concorda Calf is about. And I say that with you. You can play Champions League. Awesome. your levels high. But I saw Timmy Chandler wilt away in the San Pedro Sula heat

when we opened up to Saigo against Honduras with Juergen Cleansman. I saw him melt under the Endurance Sun. I saw him just in awe of grass up to his shins. You know, it was insane to see, and I still recall the coaching staff coming up to me

and talking to me about that game and how maybe the minimum mistake, not going with players who understood the region a little bit better, because we had all these players that came in from the Bundesliga from Germany. And I remember thinking to myself, if we were good enough to play in the Bundesliga, you should be good enough to play here. But there is some truth to getting these players acclimated in time. So when we learned that, all the rest of the training camps were in Miami. When we learned that, you know, we got players in sooner. We got them custom. We were doing different type of testing, different type of supplement,

nutrition and training to combat these conditions. So it was a lot of. it's a give or take, but I do feel like some of these players are going to learn very quickly what Concordcaf is about and it could be a process that you need to protect them, but it could also be a process that they need to go through. Yeah, okay. Hey, you're going to any of these

away qualifiers or any of the home ones? Home for sure. You know, the ones that we have rights to, ESPN, chances are I will be there. Especially if it's a Mexico game. Way? No, I doubt that. We don't have, we'll send a field we'll send sab a field reporter or something yeah okay hey thanks a lot for doing this again um

our own non nunca yeah where do people watch that how what time you can watch it on esp and the portes monday through friday if you want to hear me talk all sports uh it's a cool show we talk sports we talk pop culture we talk movies we talk music things like that in our show monday through friday three p m pacific time that you can also find on espm plus um so that's that's that's a cool of finding us in Spanish. And in English, football America is twice a week, 3 p.m. Pacific time,

on demand, anytime you want. You can see me and the little guy go at it. It's a lot of fun. And quite frankly, you know, it's a very unique show,

a show that I think this region has been lacking for quite some time, so I'm excited to be part of it. Awesome. Thanks for everything you do, Herc. Thanks for being here.

Take care. Thanks for having me.