Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #237: Interview with Vince Ganzberg on coaching youth soccer

Episode Date: January 6, 2022

Ganzberg, the associate director of coaching education for United Soccer Coaches, talks youth soccer coaching, coaching philosophy, the USSF and United Soccer Coaches curriculums, and the place of collegiate competition in American soccer.support Scuffed on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedsign up for our weekly newsletter: https://scuffedweekly.substack.com/ join the Discord: https://discord.gg/X6tfzkM8XU buy our merch: https://my-store-11446477.creator-spring.com/drop us a question at this link and we’ll try to answer it: https://forms.gle/vEatDVE6wsMzekep8 Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the scuffed podcast. I'm Adam Bells in Georgia. With me is Greg Velasquez in Iowa. We talk about U.S. men's soccer. This is a podcast that's pretty narrowly focused on the men's national team, but more generally we're interested in the growth of the game in this country. And today we have a guest with a pretty important job on that front, Vince Gansberg, the head of coaching education for United Soccer Coaches. Vince, thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. Yes, I'm the associate director of coaching education for United Soccer Coaches. Ian Barker is my boss. he's the head of coaching education, but thank you very much. Okay, my bet. No, that's okay. That's all right. So a lot of stuff we want to get into, but what's your advice to people who are thinking

about coaching you soccer? There are a lot of listeners of the podcast who are sort of in that camp. What's your advice to them, or maybe those who are just starting? Yeah, I think number one, you always have to ask yourself why you want to do it. and then let your why kind of develop your mission and you know why do you want to be there what's you know do you want to be there because you played the game and you had a negative experience but you want to make sure others don't have that experience they have a positive experience is it just because i'd like to try it and like to see how well i do uh you know as far as

we have a saying in our courses say yes to S's. So I think number one, when you're starting out, you need to make sure that you say yes to these S's. So number one is safety. Your first and foremost job is to make sure that the kids you coach are physically safe and also emotionally in a safe environment. because you are working with a parent's most valued treasure, and every child's a special or limited addition. And the last thing any parent wants is that to be damaged in any way. And so that's your number one responsibility.

And then, you know, smiles is another S. Just make sure they're having fun, make sure they're enjoying themselves, and you're enjoying yourself as well. skills teach them the game kids come to learn they come to be challenged you know they come to have fun um sweat doesn't mean like we run them into the ground to where they they sweat and maybe throw up because you've ran them so much no sweat means just that they're physically active that that um you know there's no you don't use long lines or or lectures or whatever to coach and speaking of of You need to keep things really simple for young, for youth players.

There's a saying that a really good coach can transfer knowledge into understanding. And because a lot of coaches, like I played, you know, high school soccer, college soccer, and all that. But when I went into coaching, I didn't know necessarily how to take all the knowledge I was in my head and make it understandable for a young player. So just I learned how to make things simple. Well, let's get right into it. There's like the U.S. Soccer Federation coaching curriculum, and United Soccer Coaches is totally separate from that, right? Is it, what are the differences in philosophy there?

Are they pretty similar? Yes, yeah. I mean, you know, U.S. soccer, first off, I mean, they're the licensing. organization and they're the only ones that can grant a license here in this country. But I think our philosophies are very similar. And when we talk about youth coaching and youth development, you know, we just might have, for example, they promote their methodology, which is play practice play. We say, yep, that's fantastic.

But there's other ways that you can also train kids as well. And I think they do as well. they're just pushing this methodology, which is wonderful for children. So, no, I think there's a lot more similarities than there are differences for sure. And I think a lot of our courses, both of ours, were grounded by the old national youth license, which was the best course I ever took back when I was learning how to coach young players. And I believe that, you know, the U.S. soccer grassroots directors, Zach Crawford still tries to put a little bit of those principles of that license, which he took

and he also used to teach in the U.S. soccer grassroots courses now, just like we do. But no, I think there's definitely more similarities than there are differences with the two as far as grassroots. We call them development diplomas. They call them grassroots courses. it's, you know, I guess they're both the same. We're both developing and we're working with grassroots. Right. I've taken a couple of the grassroots courses. Great courses.

Found them very useful. Yeah. Now, I looked through your guys' library of training exercises, which are, you know, you have to be a member to get to them. But you can see the name of the person who developed it. And I saw your name on a lot of these exercises, on a lot of these exercises. What are your go-to exercises for like the six-and-seven-year-old range?

Well, six- and seven-year-olds, it's really one ball, one player, as many activities as you can use with one-ball, one-player ratio, the better. So as far as, you know, go-to activities, just a lot of just dribbling-type games, you know, simple games, where, like green light, green lights still work with six-est, and sevens. We used to play sharks and minnows, and you can still play sharks and minnows. Maybe you just give it a different name. So I think a lot of games or activities where it's one ball, one player, they are active. And really what you're working on are dribbling activities and striking the

ball activities. Those are the two types of activities that are more relevant to six and seven year olds then passing receiving um shooting comes uh via striking the ball but so getting them just confidence in dribbling keeping the ball uh you know we like to say within a hula hoops distance of your body um uh you know with young young kids you might say you know use a force field you know you have a force field or whatever anything that kids love kids love force fields They love force fields. They love images, metaphors. But no, I think, yeah, dribbling activities, striking the ball activities.

And then when they're seven, on the high end of seven, maybe the older age seven, okay, now we can start getting into pairs, right? And how pairs work with each other. So 1V1 is a pair activity, but they're not working with each other. they're definitely working, they're going against each other. When they get the seven, now they start recognizing how can I play with a teammate? So how can me and you get around Ian Barker and how do we play two against one, for example, and get to a goal and score a goal? So those are just real simple activities, dribbling, striking the ball activities,

and playing just individual decision-making and then decision-making with the teammate. What's the classic ball-striking activity? because I know a lot of, I know a lot of dribbling activities, but what's a good ball striking activity? Oh, well, one that I really like is called Moving Goal, where you use pool noodles. So you go to Walmart or wherever, wherever store you can, and buy a $3 pool noodle, and it's me and you,

we hold an end of a pool noodle, why everyone else has their soccer ball, and we walk around with our pool noodle, so we're like a moving goal. And they just simply dribble and strike the ball underneath the pool noodle to score, goal. That's one way to kind of get them thinking about, oh, hey, there's a target I need to try and score or hit. And it's a fun little activity. You can get, you know, parents involved with that.

You can have parents help. They can each have a pool noodle and walk around, and we just call it the moving goal. So that's one simple one. Another one is a game. We just, we used to, we used to call clear your yard where it's basically just two teams and you put three or four balls on each side, divide the field in half and just tell them, hey, when the ball's on your side, knock it over to the other side. And when I say time, the team that has the fewest balls on their side gets a point. Stuff like that, right? So just simple little striking the ball activities, just getting them excited.

But I think anything you can do to get them actually scoring at a goal is even better. So there's another little game, a go-to game I like called Get Out of Here, where it's a 2B2 game. And you make the field rather small, but there are two goals. There's a goal to score and a goal to defend. It's a small field. And when the ball goes out of bounds or a goal was scored, everybody's out on the field. I just scream, get out of here. And then there's another pair that come on for each team.

So you have two teams going against each other. It's a fun game. But I think, for example, even like, sharks and minnows, you can add a goal or a couple goals on the ends and tell them to score a goal out when they get from one end to the other. So you can incorporate a lot of strike in the ball activities with dribbling activities. And it's actually a trend I'm seeing a lot of when I watch professional level players is that they put two techniques. They work, for example, with two techniques as opposed to just one technique at a time.

They always incorporate another one in there. Well, I'm 100% using those exercises this spring with my little UA team. Yeah, they're fun. So what this whole philosophy of guided questions that the Federation has, I gather that that's not something you reject at all. How do you think about that, how you're, this, the coach's role in sort of telling kids what to do or instructing them on do this specifically versus, you know, helping them in their own path of discovery.

How do you reconcile those two ways of thinking? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, guide to discovery has been around for a long, long time. Just, you know, heck, you know, sit with a kindergarten teacher, right, for a day and you'll find out what guided, you'll see what guided discovery looks like. But as far as using it exclusively, I mean, I can't speak for other organizations. But for me, I think there's many, many different ways to coach children. Guided Discovery is a very effective tool.

But there is sometimes when you just got to help them and tell them and show them how to do something. But guided discovery can, you know, lead into other things. So like, or I might just say, ask them, hey, keep the ball within a hula hoops distance of your body when you dribble. And I might follow up with a guided discovery question by saying, how do you do that? Or who's got a thought on how we do that? And they might say, I don't know because they don't know. Right. So we might have to show them what that looks like.

So it's kind of a blend. They're not exclusive, but they can all kind of work together. But Guide to Discovery definitely makes players think. I mean, heck, I mean, they use them on the, I just saw Frank Reich. I watch Hard Knocks because I live in Indianapolis. I'm a huge Colts fan. And I was watching Hard Knocks the other day. And so all the running backs are with their position coaches and the wide receivers

with their position coaches in rooms. And they're more telling them what to do. And all of a sudden, when they come out as a group, Frank Reich, who's the head coach says, all right, Bax, tell me what are the one or two, three things that we want to get out of this weekend or in this Sunday's games? That's got a discovery. You know, he's not selling any, he's not yelling the vision. He's pulling it out of them.

But there are times, I think, where coaches we have to push. this is how good looks like. This is what good looks like. This is what good sounds like. But if we can pull it out of them, they tend to retain it a little bit better. So I found with younger players, if you can use kind of a combination of guided discovery

and metaphors like keep the ball within a hula hoops distance of your body, or when you strike the ball, try to have little to no spin on the ball. So that's called external focus of attention, where as a coach, you're not really worried about the body mechanics. You're more getting them to focus on the effect of the technique. And so with that, they have to figure out a way to strike the ball to have little or no spin.

That's exploring. So you're allowing them to explore how to make that happen. I did it this past weekend with the Indiana ODP group of kids. We talked about bending balls, and I said, what do you need the ball to do? And they all said, we need the ball to spin sideways. Like, absolutely. So how do you do that? So why don't you go practice with the teammate and work on how you make that ball spin sideways?

So there's lots of different ways to coach, but guided discovery is a very effective tool. actually was brought out really through the National Youth License that I referenced earlier. That was one of the courses that used Guide to Discovery, how to coach five and six-year-olds, seven and eight-year-olds, and so on. And there's low order guided discovery. There's high-order guided discovery. And I think as a coach, you just have to figure out what method works for your players and your individual players.

Because some players just say, coach, just tell me how to do it. And other players are like, yeah, I like it when you ask questions because it gets me to think. But there are sometimes when the player is panicking, you might say, okay, let's calm down. Here's how you do it.

And now you just kind of mimic what I just did, see if you can copy what I just did, and just kind of get them to calm down. So there's lots of different ways, but Godd Discovery is definitely a tool that we use. with younger players. Okay. Well, I must be a very malleable pupil because when I took those grassroots licensed

classes, I came away with a, I don't know, almost religious conviction that I should avoid. That's great, though. Yeah, no, it's good. But I should avoid talk. And then I, you know, actually when the rubber met the road and I was actually coaching, I found myself, okay, maybe I do need to explain some stuff here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there are times.

We just have to show them. But you can do it in a, you know, you don't have to be demeaning about it. You can just show them, hey, this is what it looks like. This is what good. And I use that a lot. I'll say, who can show us what a good pass looks like? And it might, no one might be able to. So I might have to say, well, here's what it looks like.

So that's not got discovery. That's just showing them. Right. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm glad you brought up the position-specific instruction in American football because I this is a question from one of our listeners but some people bemoan a gap in the level of detail in coaching instruction uh in soccer well I mean what they

perceive as a lack of it in soccer compared to other traditional American sports and like I know for my upbringing in basketball that coaches would spend like a whole day on a simple thing like how to make an entry pass with like a bounce pass or how to place your hands when you receive the so you can shoot or pass, you know. And I, I do kind of perceive that this type of instruction isn't as common in soccer. Well, so first of all, is that true, I guess, is my perception of that true? No, there's definitely a little bit more coaching in those types of sports because they're, you know, growing up in the great state of Indiana, basketball's religion here, still is.

Yeah. And that's how I was, that's how I was taught. You know, but those are more coach-driven type sports. When I mean coach-driven, I don't mean it negatively. I mean that basically, though, a coach can design something like an in-bound play to get a basket, where in soccer, the players have to figure it out. They have to learn how to figure it out. So like in a four-versus-four game, there's 56 possible channels of communication on the field at one time.

That's just the kids playing. forget the outside noise. So there's a lot going on just in a four versus four game for sevens and eights. But I think is... What do you mean 56 channels for communication? Yeah, so some math person came up with this. And I can actually send you the whole slide in an email and you can share it with whoever. But so it's myself.

There's my teammate. So there's a channel of communication. myself and another teammate there's another channel myself and another teammate there's another channel and then there's the four other players on the other team and you multiply that it ends up to being 56 eventually so um and then you know when they as they get older 11 v 11 it's like 400 and my math could be off 4162 possible channels of communication available um not sure if my math is right on that one but yeah but no No, but soccer is basically a players game.

And I think that, you know, my late, sorry, my mentor was an individual by name of Mike Burticelli, who used to coach the University of Notre Dame. He passed away far too soon. And he was my mentor. And I remember he always used to say, we have two problems in this country. We overcoach the young and we undercoach the old. And because I think a lot of times we do have parent coaches. I have a basketball coaching background or a football coaching background where, again, those are play-driven type sports, where the coach is more on stage.

And I think in soccer, really the coach is more the guide on the side as opposed to being a sage on the stage where you teach them on Wednesday nights, for example, how to strike a ball or how to score a goal. and then you hope on Saturday you just cross your fingers that they listen to, you know, they learn from Wednesday's practice on a Saturday's practice and then, you know, then you go on. It takes a long time for a soccer player to peak too. So I think it's a different, but it is, it's a question I get all the time. You know, how come, you know, we're not supposed to talk much? Well, no, it doesn't mean that you don't talk much. it doesn't mean that you don't, you know, say encouraging things to them while they're playing

or being specific with praise. Hey, that was great the way you got your head up so you can see so you can pass to your teammate, perfect, you know, that's instruction you can give them. But, you know, when, but when we're in practice, it's okay to tell them, hey, this is when we pass the ball, we got to, you know, push the ball at the inside of our foot, our heels down, our toe is up, and, you know, we follow through, you know, with our past. So there's nothing wrong with that. I think during the game, though, we got to give it to them a little bit, let them figure it out.

And again, just hope that, you know, they learned throughout the week. I was a basketball coach. And then when I, it was hard for me trans, when I was younger, going from being the basketball coach to be in the soccer. soccer coach with the high school. I'm a teacher by trade and it took a while for me to remember, okay, Vince, they really can't hear you as well outside on the, you know, when they're playing, as opposed to in a gym where it's enclosed and there's only five people on the court. So there are a lot of little variables in there. But I, you know, again, a lot of it is just soccer is truly a player's game. When those players crossed the white lines, all you can do is hope and pray that they

remember the lessons you taught them throughout the week. So you're, just so I understand, your mentor, Berticelli, his view was that we should be coaching the older with more detail. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I think sometimes, and that was one thing. And then the other thing is that some of our some people that are coaching the older players don't have the depth and the knowledge to provide enough challenge for them so they develop um so we can have better national teams so we can have better um you know well back then uh we didn't even have the mLS when when i knew bert uh but i his i think his one of his messages was that we need better coaches with older players with older players too because, you know, there's, there's a lot more to the game as they get older.

And do you think that's still the case? Yeah, I do. I still think, I think the curve's gotten, or the gap's gotten a lot smaller, I believe, you know, I do. I think the level of coaching education in this country since when I first met Mike Berticelli, the gap has gotten smaller. In other words, I think the knowledge base is a lot better. a lot of that's due to the internet. A lot of that's due to, you know, the resources that we can get now back when I first started coaching.

We didn't have the internet. We didn't have Twitter. We didn't have people saying, hey, try this activity. Or, hey, here's a game model. I didn't even know what a game model was for a long time. And so for me is, you know, it's always this is the way we want to play. And but I think just from the coaching education world, it has improved the level of play in this country. Good.

Great. So what is the situation with coaching, with like the pipeline for youth soccer coaches? Is there a shortage? I know we always talk about there being a referee shortage nationally, but are there, do we need more people? to get involved, how badly do we need that? Oh, I honestly, I don't know if that's, I don't know if I can give you a black and white answer on that one. Sure, sure. I mean, for me, recreation programs are always struggling to find volunteers.

A lot of times they have to tell people, right? So now they're volunteered as opposed to volunteering. So there is a shortage, I think, sometimes there. But that's because a lot of the adults don't have confidence in how do you work with a six-year-old or a seven-year-old. They don't know how to do that. As far as a shortage of, you know, and the shortage of referees, there's lots or there are a lot of reasons why. And there's not enough time in this podcast to go through them all. But a lot of it is because of the behaviors on the sidelines of coaches and parents.

And, you know, for a while when I was the state director of coaching for Indiana, I want to say we had about a 70, we had about a 70% turnover rate every year of new referees. And of those, I want to say like 75% of them were 16 years of age and younger. So, you know, it was just, I don't even think it's gotten better, to be honest with you. But as far as coaches, as coaching shortage, I think a lot of it's just, you know, if we can provide them with some tools, some simple tools to make sure that they keep kids safe, make sure that they make sure they have fun and teach them some skills and, you know, make sure that they're physically active and make it simple for them, then we'll see more, more

volunteer coaches kind of step up. And I think that that's where, you know, kudos to U.S. soccer for the grassroots courses. I think that they're making them, you know, the barriers are smaller, right, to be educated. Yeah. Which is fantastic. So, and we've been doing it too for years. United Soccer coaches. We've been doing that as well. So, but I, I think, if anything, there might be a shortage of coaches, like for middle school aged players. or not necessarily high school because, and I coach a high school as well. And there's not a shortage of high school coaches, but maybe quality high school coaches, there might be a shortage of.

Yeah. But quantity, I think, is there. Well, maybe my situation is I live in North Georgia. And so not a big, you know, Chattanooga's got a pretty good soccer scene. but like I'm a little bit outside of Chattanooga. It's more like girls softball and football, you know, are the big sports. And I signed my kid up for rec soccer. And I got a call the Friday before the season started.

Somebody had heard that I like soccer. And so I got, I got volunteered to coach. Yes, you did. Yes. Yeah. And I was happy to do it. I just didn't want to be a know-it-all and just be like a coach right off the bat. I wanted to see how it went.

But I did find that like, you know, I have some. I know people who are good at soccer and know how to coach soccer, so I was able to put together like a little bit of a plan and that was good. But I know that I know from playing against some of the other teams and, you know, seeing some of their practices that not everybody has that. And what is the, what is the like quick and dirty way to just get like acquainted with what you need to do as a coach. I mean, maybe it's, it's just what I did, call a bunch of people.

But it'd be nice if there was just like a little, because the grassroots coaches, sorry for rambling on, but the grassroots coaches are great, but I don't think most of the people in my town who, you know, end up find themselves by some chance coaching soccer are going to go, you know, take a licensing course online. It would be nice if they could just get like a, I don't know. like a two-pageer or something. Right, right. And hopefully the organization you coach for, you know, gives you that, gives you

some of that information. And if not, then that's when you got to go researching and following people or going on, for example, you know, our website where we have loads of activities and ideas to coach and all that. But, you know, there's, again, it's a, it's a, it's a great. great question. But for me, every association, every organization is affiliated with either their state association. And so their state association hopefully gives materials to those organizations to hand out to their coaches so they can make the child's experience a positive one.

So that to me is key, and it's still, you know, it was key a long time ago and it still is today. And I think a lot of times experience is the best teacher. You know, you do it once and then, okay, you know, when I first started coaching, I wrote a lot of my practices on an index card. And I would write, that was a good practice or that practice was awful on the back. and but the next season, I knew what to do and what not to do, a little bit better. You know, and I think, you know,

I find a lot of the coaches, as long as they just understand what children need as far as, you know, a positive person that's leading them, they'll be fine. They'll be fine. And at the end of the day,

if you let kids just play the game, the game is the best teacher. It's a better coach than I'll ever be. There is a saying that the game is the best teacher as long as the game has played right. And I think there is a lot of truth to that. In other words, if the players aren't playing the game right, then it's not the best teacher.

But for me, I think if state associations, like in Georgia, you have a fantastic state association there. And I used to be, believe or not, I was the director of coaching for Tennessee, use soccer for about three minutes. Oh, really? And I lived in Cleveland, Tennessee for a little bit. But before I moved back home to Indiana,

and they were wonderful people. But my job as a state director of coaching was to make sure all these little communities had resources to help their coaches. And whether it was providing them with an online course or just physically going to them and doing a clinic for those coaches. That was great. But yeah, I think a lot of the parents, parent coaches, a lot of it's the rules, right?

I don't even know the rules of the game, right? So just arming them with that. And, okay, what do I do with a six-year-old that just won't listen? Those are all little things that you just have to pick up and you just have to learn and ask other people and reach out to other people on what, you know, how do I get a six-year-old to listen? And, you know, and experience is the best teacher, in my opinion. So, okay. I don't know if there's a manual for it. Right. Yeah, I was looking for a silver bullet that's just not there.

It's like raising a kid, you know, you kind of have, you know, you, you know, and there's a saying, right, when you raise a child, you're really raising a future adult. And I think, yeah, I think, yeah, it's almost scary when you think of it that way, but you are. And I think as parent coaches, we have to, you know, just remember that, you know, we're teaching life lessons using a sports strategy. And if we can remember that, then I think everything's going to be okay. Okay. A few more questions. How much strength and conditioning is in, is buried in the United Soccer Coaches diploma program, you know, the development diplomas and beyond?

Yeah. Well, you know, in our development diplomas are grassroots courses. I mean, there's not a lot of strength and conditioning in there. And we talk about speed agility, sorry, you know, agility, balance, coordination. to ABCs for youth when we talk about younger players strength comes you know as they get older now in our advanced level diplomas like our national diploma advanced national diploma and premier diploma yes we talk about there's a sports performance part in all of our courses relevant to what level our course is you know we talk a little about period of We talk a little bit about, you know, what's the load of it, what's the physical load of an activity? What should it be when it's three on three versus 11 on 11? In other words, how long can players play with focus and intensity and effort before you see a drop really go?

And so we address a lot of that in our advanced level diplomas and our development diplomas, our grassroots diplomas. we get more into agility balance and coordination. Those are the key parts. And we say, you know, we say, you know, don't worry about laps. You know, don't worry about because a child really doesn't reach peak height velocity until they get to puberty. In other words, the capability of aerobic capacity doesn't really make sense for them prior to puberty because they're incapable of really keeping that aerobic capacity in their bodies.

Right. So up until puberty, well, let's work on their agility, their coordination, their balance, changing direction, how do we run backwards, those types of just movements. You know, those are the most important things. And I'm actually validated. I picked up the Croatian football federation curriculum, development curriculum, and it pretty much says all the same thing as well. Really? Okay. Well, do you see value in having sort of separate governing bodies for college coaches, which I gather is sort of one of United Soccer coaches' functions versus a USSF path, you know, licensing path? What advantages are there to that bifurcation since the negatives maybe are more obvious to the uninitiated like myself, you know?

Yeah, I'm going to try and answer this the best I can. So we at United Soccer coaches, we advocate for college coaches, really. And our education courses, you know, we always tell people, look, they're not going to get you a job. they're going to hopefully provide you with the knowledge and information to be a better coach that will hopefully, you know, will look a little bit more appealing to someone that's reading your CV or your resume. But U.S. soccer, you know, they give you their license, you know, and U.S. soccer, they're teaching, you know, kind of a methodology, the different roles of coaching, not necessarily specific to the college game where, You know, with United Soccer coaches, we can create courses kind of geared towards, you're a college coach, do this. Take this type of course.

So, for example, we have an online sports performance course that is four months, but it's fantastic. And we also have a mental performance diploma, which is all virtual. We have performance analysis, special topics, virtual diploma. Those are all relevant to college coaching. But U.S. soccer gets into all that too. So, you know, as far as college coaching is concerned, I guess my thing is, for me, it's can you get on as an assistant coach at a college? Because really, that's what a lot of AEDs look at. You know, you might have all the licenses in the world, but if you've never coached Division I and you're applying for a Division I job,

yes, you're probably qualified, if not overqualified, but do you know how the college game works? Yeah. Do you know how to recruit? Do you know how to market your own program? Do you know how to manage a season? You know, so I don't know if there's any separate pathways, really. I think both organizations prepare coaches, and they prepare coaches well and to coach at a higher level, depending on what level of course you take.

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense that there's value in having coaching courses that are specifically geared toward the college game, you know. What's your dream scenario for how college soccer fits into the broader soccer landscape? Well, I'm kind of old school and a traditionalist, so, I mean, I personally, I like the college game. I think, you know, I know that that's been a knock. There's been a knock on like, you know, it hasn't produced whatever special players. But for me, the mission of college soccer is different, you know, it's just different. I mean, it's really to give players or young men and women a good educational experience and soccer's part of that. So,

But for me, I think it's always college soccer has a place. It will always have a place. You know, and can it be used a little bit more as a development tool for our national teams or to get to the next level? Perhaps. We'll see. You know, and I, you know, but for me, a lot of it is there's, there is that gap where if players don't play college, right, and they just stop, you know, where a lot of development

happens, you know, 18 to 23 years of age, there's a lot of development that happens. And I think it's what college soccer helps as well. I mean, they help, you know, they think about, you know, I love high school soccer and a lot of people bash high school soccer, but I love high school soccer. I love what it stands for. You know, kids are playing for something bigger than themselves, and that same thing is in college. They're playing in front of crowds. They're playing for the name that's on the front of the jersey, not the back of the jersey. There's a lot of neat little things that both high school

and college soccer give that it, where there's, you know, but there are also times when a player just needs to be in a really good environment with a club and just stay that route. And, you know, if I had a wish, it would be, you know, those players that play college soccer, they go on and maybe they play for, you know, a reserve team, for example, Nashville FC, they have reserve teams. Okay, so now can they go there and can they develop even more? Because a lot of people in college soccer, they just, once they're done, they're done. And it's funny, too, about high school soccer and college soccer. I coach club soccer for a long time as well. And I rarely saw a 17 or 18 year old kid weep or cry after their last club game.

But man, I see 18-year-old boys just absolutely ball and weep after their last high school game. And the same thing with college, the college game. It means something to them. So that's why I think the college game always, for me, always has a special place. Yeah, and I think, I mean, some of these, we follow a lot of young kids, you know, who are in the club on the club side, 16, 17, we're looking for the next big thing. And, you know, people who have been doing that for decades, the real U.S.

men's national team nerds, you know, they can recite a whole list of players who didn't pan out. Right. And it does make me, as a confession I don't often make, but it does make me a little sad. sad when I think about like the system that, you know, put these kids in a situation where all they do is play soccer. And then, you know, surely many of them have found satisfying ways to live after soccer. But a lot of their human energy is poured into just soccer. Right. Up until they're 20. And then maybe they're playing for like in like the second division in the Czech Republic or something. And I don't know. That makes. So I mean, I guess

I don't know, you're not saying that, and I don't know that that makes an argument for college soccer or anything, but there are two sides to the... Absolutely. No, there are. And I, you know, it's amazing to me how we have a country of our size, and we don't have a really a, now, we have players that are close on the national team,

on the men's national team that can pick a lock. Right? We don't have a player that can really pick a lock. I mean, politics is pretty good, and we have others that are coming, that are developing. We definitely have that on the women's side, right? We've always had that. We've always had a player that could pick a lock on the women's side. We've never had a problem with there, but on the men's side, and I say that,

and it's a phrase I got from Anton Cornell, who used to be the technical director for Trinidad. And I'll never forget, after the debacle in Trinidad, I was actually teaching a Concaf course with him. And he asked that question to me. He goes, a country of your size and you don't have a player that can pick the lock. And he was right. We really didn't have a player that could just create something out of nothing. And we do. We have an enormous country.

It's amazing. you know, compared to Trinidad, but yet they hang in there. So I think a lot of it's just the environment. We have to continue to work on the environment, make it a player environment for kids, make it to where it's fun when they're young and make it to where it's meaningful when they're old. And I think if we keep striving towards that, then we will have that. Who do you think, last question, who do you think other than Pulisic is the closest to being a real lock picker? Oh, boy.

I mean, I'll be honest, right now he's the only one that comes to my mind. I mean, I'm going to ask you who you think, and I'll see if I agree or disagree. Maybe Gio Raina. Yes. But I don't know. Yeah. There's a kid who plays for PSV who's just come back from a knee injury, Richie Ledesma, who I think has some potential on that front.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the thing is, is that we got to still let these kids develop in those environments, like PSV and all that, you know, and like Raina, you know, where he's at now. I mean, he didn't play college soccer. And that's what I mean. So a lot of people are seeing that these players aren't playing college soccer

and they're going to play in Europe. Okay. So that tells us that we're, we don't have a platform for those players to develop in our own country. And a lot of times, yeah, they do. They blame college soccer for that. But for me, again, college soccer always has a place and always will. I mean, in a perfect world, I'd love to have promotion relegation in this country.

That's a whole other topic. I think it would be too. And I think, yeah, you know, we, you know, now we're starting to see more. more, more, you know, clubs pop up, you know, San Antonio, and then there's El Paso. You know, there's all these little clubs that are happening, you know, here in Indianapolis, we get the Indy 11, you know, it'd be great if they went from a first division to an MLS first premier, if you will. I just think it'd be neat. And I think the more we have those pop up and then we develop youth academies there,

okay, then maybe we're going to have a platform for those college players to go to. or instead of. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Vince. Thanks everybody for listening. We'll see you.