Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #302: C.J. Sapong interview

Episode Date: July 28, 2022

The Nashville SC striker is still banging in goals at 33, and he talked about how he's evolved in his training, what it's like to be his own agent, staying thankful, how soon Black America will embrace the sport of soccer, the most annoying centerbacks in the league to play against, and the importance of meditation.Sapong's non-profit, Sacred Seeds: https://www.thesacredseeds.org/our-visionsupport Scuffed on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedjoin the Discord: https://discord.gg/X6tfzkM8XU buy our merch: https://my-store-11446477.creator-spring.com/drop us a question at this link and we’ll try to answer it: https://forms.gle/rfzSEZJwsvnWSCxW7 Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the SCuff podcast, where we talk about U.S. Soccer. Our guest today is C.J. Sapong, one of the more consistent American goal scorers in Major League Soccer in recent years. He has six goals and five assists in all competitions so far this season for Nashville, SC. He's a father of two, and he's interestingly enough, his own manager. Thanks for being here, CJ. No problem. Thanks for having me. You're 12 years into your professional soccer career, and I saw on Instagram, one of your captions was about staying thankful for these moments as a player while you're

walking into the stadium. And I gather it can be a grind. How do you do that? How do you stay thankful? Oh, man. I mean, recognizing the areas in your experience that, you know, are a blessing. And that's purely relative. and I learned throughout my years, my perspective was the most important thing.

And once I understood kind of how I operated and my need to also have fulfillment and purpose and not so much stats or by other people's standards, I was able to just kind of be able to engulf myself in the moments a little bit more. You know, you as a player have a tendency to use the past. in the future against yourself. You want to get somewhere and you're looking back and you're hoping whether you know you're in a funk

or you're informed that you continue to push, you know, your ability and push the height of your value in other people's eyes. But ultimately individual impact as well as collective impact while you're on a team is something that I've been able to

put a lot of emphasis on. I'm finding those areas and it makes me excited to go out on the field every day. And I put in even more work off the field, you know, 12 years having to recover. And I got kids now too as well. So I really do have to take time to myself to make sure I'm at a place where I can, you know, stay maximized. How do you do? And what do you do to take time for yourself? So, I mean, I'm one that has, through, you know, a whirlwind of different experience, trials, errors just kind of accepted the process.

And, you know, I take my moments to kind of center and bring silence to my being, you know, because there's a lot of noise in what I do. and then even when I leave, you know, now especially being a father and a husband and these things, there's other people you have to make sure okay and going to be okay in the future. And so there's constant noise of pulling, right, of all these different things that if you don't bring silence, you're not going to know how to filter and categorize all these thoughts, emotions, feelings. So, you know, that manifests for me in ways of, I'll stop at a problem. park on the way back from training maybe 30 minutes before I get home to the madness of the kids

or when they take a nap, you know, try and get wifie to take a nap as well, put on some like, you know, guided meditation, soothing sounds just to bring us all to equilibrium. I think it's really pivotal as a family, but also on a team, right? Like there has to be equilibrium and which every person that's part of the organization and the vision and the dream is at a resonant frequency so that we can all work with each other

and maximize all our potentials together. I really like that. Let me ask one more question about meditation because I know a lot of people try to start doing that and it is appealing to a lot of people but it's difficult thing it seems to me is like continuing to do it and sticking with it.

How did you do that? Yeah. And I will say first and foremost, it is, I look at it as a long-term investment. And I think kind of like how people approach, you know, the next best deal or idea, you know, we kind of hope that we'll reap the rewards quick, whereas, you know, long-term investment, you make those, you know, looking for farther future dates in the future, you know. So with meditation, slowly depositing minutes of silence into your being over time just, you know, aggregates.

And as that happens, you know, you're in a position where from those moments of silence, you've gotten insight. And that's the thing. Like the thoughts, when you get into a meditative state, when you finally do reach that place, then the things that filter through have more meaning. And they are your own. Whereas it's a whirlwind throughout the day. And we're doing jobs that ultimately we're still trying to perform for other people and, you know, constantly putting ourselves under this like metaphorical microscope is going to bring. stressors, anxiety, fears, because that's the energy we're emitting.

So it's just like being able to navigate and dance through it as opposed to be fearful or try to fight it and all these other reactions. A few of our listeners have submitted questions that they want to be asked. One of them is MCB, he knows who he is. He says, what have you changed your mind about in your soccer career as far as training or preparation? I would say, I mean, I've had to do this just simply because of the mileage on these needs. But just like always telling myself, more is better. You know, when I was younger, more was always better. One more, two more, two more, you know, reps.

It's more about efficiency. And being at a place in my career where, you know, I've gotten a little bit more into like watching video and you know I'm really enjoying like trying to master my craft and put it to its limits and you know as I watch myself watch myself move like I'm able to put myself in those moments and understand like okay like there's an efficiency that's needed you know in a controlled manner here as opposed to like the pure brute athleticism that maybe got me through you know my career when I was young and spirited so being in that position where I'm able to continue to learn, keeps me excited about coming to practice and makes me much more

conscientious and focus when I'm getting these reps in because I'm more easily able to apply these movements, actions to the game and understanding all that preparation is for one moment in which there still is a necessary amount of focus and concentration to the execute it and round out the full scope of, you know, that growth process. And that's just, it's fun. It's fun to do that every day. It comes with all the other things too as well. But ultimately that keeps me waking up and doing it with a smile on my face.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Who's the most annoying player in the league to play against and why? The most annoying player in the league to play against. I'm going to, it's funny, he's, I think Walker probably is. I'm glad he's on my team. But if I was supposed, if I was to pick an opponent, I would say the center of Marillo from L.A.F.C. He's just a very persistent defender.

And, you know, as a striker when, you know, a lot of the game, you know, records we want to be on the front foot you know moving towards the goal but a lot of the times you're coming back towards your own goal you're trying to hold possession for the team you're trying to win aerial duels and he's just a guy you always you just always feel it's just something that adds another dimension of like obstacle in your game because not only do you want to know where he is and keep your balance and stay strong you you want to keep the possession as well. Yeah, so that's my take there.

That's a great answer. Is Walker, I mean, obviously you've played against Walker before. Is that the, would you say something similar about him? Is that why he's annoying? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, he's aggressive and he just mentality-wise puts himself in positions to where the scales are tipping in his favor, you know.

When you commit like that, there's energy in your, in your sales. So it's tough. It's tough to play against. That's why he's a den defender of the year, I think twice. He's an All-Star and he's running things on our back line. Trent, Cram, another listener, asks,

what has it been like to watch him, Walker Rise, from the fringes of the national team player pool to becoming, you know, pretty much a core member of the team? written in Penn Starter? I would say probably, it's for me, I've just, I've kind of known

from playing against him that these qualities were there and needed when it came to our, I wouldn't even say just our national team, just the overall philosophy and psyche of American soccer.

It's something that I think these days you have of many players from you know different upbringings and playing in different places and Walker being able to bring that like really

American bread spirit and like hunger to like make it work make it happen like that's exactly what you need and captain of you know your national team going into a World Cup so I just kind of saw it realized but I always felt like those qualities were there and it's been an honor

to be able to witness it and, you know, I'm going to be able to tell my kids, you know, that I played this guy that went to the World Cup and, you know, maybe did pretty great things there. Yeah. Yeah, we don't have too much time left, but we are a U.S. MNT podcast, so I got to ask a few other questions about that. I remember you getting a few call-ups under Dave Saracen before Burrhalter took over. I think you started in that game in Portugal.

and one other Bosnia-Herzegovina and January camp that year. Why have you, why did you not get any call-ups under Burrhalter? Yeah, you know, I don't know. I actually came in. Those two call-ups were like right as there was a transition as well. So I can't say I was really expecting to continue to be in the picture. But, you know, Sarah Kim was kind of interim. men, you know, they had identified me earlier just through run of form more so.

And so I think, you know, I was always going to get the opportunity. But just like it goes all over the world in football, you know, there's always transitions. There's always transitions to philosophy. And, I mean, other players emerge as well, you know, as I've been slowly but steadily moving through my professional career. there's, you know, the academy and developmental process here in the States has slowly and steadily been growing and we're producing more and more products and, you know, and at some level it's like, I see both sides of it, you know, in my mind, I would love to be able to be in a position to mentor some of these kids or young adults that are, you know, hitting the prime of their career

and getting experiences of a lifetime. you know, but also I understand how that thought might, you know, more well benefit a up-and-coming soccer star who, you know, with that experience can really transcend to like levels that, you know, I probably couldn't reach right now. That's a very gracious answer. So you were, you were once repped by Wasserman, I believe, and now you represent yourself. How did you come to that decision and how has it gone for you? Because I know a lot of young players signed with Wasserman. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, Wasserman is a great group. They've been around a long time and, you know, they've got a network. They understand the ins and outs of the game. But personally,

for me, it was a really tough time, man. It was in the midst of COVID. There was a league stoppage. shoot, I found out that year that Chicago buyer was not going to offer me a contract at the end of the year. I was a free agent. The CBA negotiations got reopened. My wife was in a high-risk pregnancy with my daughter, and they were telling us all these different things that could be a problem and an issue. You know, that field, and I understand they say it's for liability purposes, but it's, it's, you know, they're, yeah, they project, yeah, yeah, they project all the things that can go wrong first. And, you know, ultimately with all this whirlwind and not even knowing if I was going to be, you know, playing the next year, I, I simply just needed that 5%.

I just needed that 5% to myself, you know, it was such a tough decision and a tough, you know, you know, know, process to go to this guy, Dan Siegel, who, you know, done a lot for me in my career. But it also provided an opportunity for me to step into a patriarchal role and, you know, recognize my power. You know, I got a family now. I'm doing budgets for a whole family. Like, every dollar counts. And in this economy, you better be counting those pennies, man. And there's nothing wrong with it, right? It's actually a beautiful thing. thing. The only tough part about it is like, okay, somebody else on the other end might lose

a certain amount of income. But Watson men will be straight. Yeah. A lot of players, they will always get players. And I think in that situation, it was definitely the better move for me. And the experience I've gained since then is, like, invaluable. Yeah, what did you have to learn in order to follow through on that? Like, how to do certain kinds of paperwork or, like, what?

would have been the big things you've learned since you started representing yourself? Well, the biggest thing I learned is you got to read-ish two and three times. Yeah. You know, I was, I was, I kind of outrageous the amount of times I wouldn't even read like contracts and things. I just, yeah, you know, like, yeah, that's what you pay the agent for. But, you know, am I really paying 5% of my salary just because what I don't want to do the work of, like, what I? I'm agreeing to, what I'm sacrificing my body for, what I'm trying to fuel my life through.

Yeah, I should know that. I should know the ins and outs. And once I had delved into that and I got access to different tools and resources that are utilized by being agents and looking at different types of stats and it actually brought a lot of empowerment to myself because I'm like, wow, like, all right, I've always. felt, and this is typical of a player, you know, I'm not saying, I'm not trying to victimize myself. But I've always felt like I was, you know, valued below what I felt like my impact brought on the field. And, you know, I know this, every team is different, but I brought a lot of value off the field to many clubs that I play for.

And that's a different mechanism, there's a different mechanism of measurement there. So those things don't get thrown in. but I do believe in the long run, like overall, I was getting paid below my means. But now that I have control of that situation, I can contact teams, coaches, general managers, directly. I don't have to wait for the email to get sent to my agent. Then email is me, and then a week later we finally talk about it. Oh, this change, that change. Who really knows what was actually said?

you know whereas I get on a call and two minutes and 30 seconds I know what the deal is you know that's cool yeah I did a little Googling but I'm not sure it does your dad work for the federal reserve bank yes he does okay so he does so you have a you know he must be he must be a smart guy who knows something about this sort of thing oh yeah he um it's funny because growing up He definitely instilled the concepts of logistics and clarification of numbers and equations and all these things. It was funny as we get older. I kind of give them stick a little bit because, you know, obviously, inflation's crazy right now. I did a budget two years ago based off of, you know, my contract I signed for, and the numbers aren't adding up the same.

same way. But I'm very thankful because something that he's always taught me to is like just being able to adapt and, you know, not panicking, really, not getting too emotional. Like, you have your plan and you have your philosophy. Chances are if you just stick to it, like, yeah, long term over time, like, you're going to be okay. You're going to get into the business side of soccer when you're playing days are over and be an agent for other players or would you rather players take ownership of their own agency, take their own agency, I guess?

I would like to look at some kind of athlete-run agency. I would like to use my experience to create something that is almost like in a good way, an anti-agency, whereas, yeah, I wouldn't really be taking players to do everything. for them, right? I would be only taking players that want to control their own narrative and look at ways we can shoot, utilize our status, our network while we're playing to begin to align visions of long-term goals, you know, at a time where we know somebody will, anybody will reply to our email. How do we identify those things during the career and set it up so that after it's a smooth transition into, you know, a passion that's also going to bring you

income. Tell us about, tell us about Sacred Seeds, your, your nonprofit, please, and what that organization is doing right now. Yeah, Sacred Seas is a sustainable agriculture-based nonprofit in Philadelphia, primarily working in zoo desert, trying to attack, I mean, at the root, at the root, we're trying to attack iron deficiencies. Iron deficiencies are huge in food deserts. Low iron in the oxygen or low iron in the red blood cells, least a low oxygen, which then messes with the circulation of your blood and also just leads to other dis-ease, a whole host of things that, you know,

down the road we end up just trying to kill the symptoms. But we're trying to heal them from the root, if you know what I mean. COVID really, oh, man, put a dent in a lot of our like programming. Yeah. You're way more on the ground, boots on the ground, hands getting dirty. Whereas now we're looking at trying to continue to promote our influence and promote these ideologies because sustainable agriculture can be broken down in so many ways to increase efficiency at a low cost and then you have an opportunity to build sustainable models that

can just increase the capacity of these communities, right? So it's not just handing the greens out to them. It's also, you know, refurbishing old lots into, you know, aromatic or some kind of therapy-based agriculture or, you know, purely for consumption to be able to provide programming at these areas. So like the knowledge and the skills and the tools that are necessary to keep those models moving are learned in the communities. Yeah, man, I love, I love, I'm very passionate about agriculture, health. And I mean, once I started getting in the fields and getting my hands there, he was with kids, like understanding how, you know, innocent children are and how much they get just from like interacting with nature.

It's so necessary and I believe if we're as a people going to get to a place where our world, our economy is sustainable. We're going to need these children to usher in that future for us because we're messing up. Well, so if you're looking for like a concrete manifestation of what you're doing, Would it be like community gardens and that sort of thing? Yeah, yeah. So that was probably the height of our success. We secured a lot.

We were in the process of planning the grounds to be a therapy garden. We had different sections based on different senses, and we wanted to make it a walk-through experience where whether it's through texture, through vision, through smell, you know, there's different fences being activated through agriculture and then utilizing that space for programming as well. It was beautiful, man. It was taking shape and COVID hit and landlord needed money and he essentially somebody else was willing to pay more.

So that was tough taking the back burner on that. It's a little one to the chin. But I think what that also showed me in COVID is like as much as we can do outside and, you know, at these spaces, there's a lot we can also do for kids and families while they're at home. And, you know, disseminating knowledge on a continuous basis that just reminds people about the efficiency and low cost. aspects of sustainable agriculture. Cool. This might be a lot to get into,

but I feel like I should ask. Jared, another one of our listeners asked about the Black Players for Change Initiative, which you were a part of. And I'll say, you know, 2020 felt like an inflection point maybe with the murder of George Floyd and, you know, the anguish that followed that. And I wonder, you know,

what's your sort of assessment of that black players for change initiative so far and like what impact it has had? Yeah, I mean, from the onset, I think it essentially initiated a process of reconciliation with our own traumas in the black community, specifically the black man in MLS, given that there had been countless experiences we've had that just reflected the prejudice or the implicit biases that people might hold against us. And, you know, feeling victimized by that. And it was a tough place to be, but I think it was very necessary for us to be able to now,

through that process, we had seats at a table and our stories were going to be heard. And through speaking those stories out loud, we got to learn a lot about ourselves. know there were some times where we were on calls and we realized okay hey like we might have been seeing this a certain way but you know after going to the source and you know setting up a discussion we now understand it was just miscommunicated you know slowly but surely allowing ourselves to forgive while demanding just a bit more but let's learning how to articulate that in a concise way is easy as well. So black players for change allowed us to put these processes in place and have our,

have us a seat at the table and provide pipelines for other black athletes to not be held down by the, the just existent social and systemic dynamic that's out there and keeping, you know, black men, black and brown communities from having equity in the growth of this country, this economy, all these different things. That work is ongoing, right? I mean, it's still, it's still. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we, I mean, a couple initiatives we had.

We did the safe basis to play, the pitches where we were putting in underserved areas to allow soccer to be a sport that brought communities together in a safe way. We've been able to have the league implement certain diversity and inclusion protocols to ensure there's, you know, the proper representation across the league. I just recently got to appreciate the fruits of our labor because we did an implicit bias training course with a company that was outsourced by the league, which we were part of the process of review. So to see those things happen and manifest and oh, wow, like, that's just simply because we came together and, like, chose to do it instead of like, essentially point. fingers. And that's very empowering feeling. To this day, there's still work to be done, but, you know, I love seeing my brother's putting in more and more work and we stay connected and communicating.

It's the five players that change is the organization that is definitely going to stay and grow. Let me, I know we're way over time, but let me ask three more questions. The national team is, there are a lot of African-American players on the national team. I mean, you could even foresee like a starting 11, a credible starting 11 that would be all black. But it still seems like soccer is not that popular in black America, you know? Would you agree with that? I mean, it's not as popular as football or basketball.

Yeah. Yeah, no, not right now. It will. When is that going to change? It's going to change very soon here. Once these guys get out on this field in this World Cup, because it's just a different level now. We look at social media,

and I mean, just like the way we're just consuming content, there's going to be an opportunity for the young American team to revolutionize how soccer is viewed in this country. and I actually believe the spark started with the women. You look at like 99 and on and just the progression of talent that's just consistently moved through, you know, our women's soccer pipeline. But I think it's the men's turn and there's going to be a lot, there's a lot of entertaining figures anyway in the sport that when they're coming to the U.S. in 2026, about that time

it's going to be mayhem it's going to be chaos you're going to see all stars all types of people at these games because remember these guys people are investing in soccer teams out here now you know they're building these stadiums

like they're going to be at these games they're going to hype it up going to be on social media and you know the thing with the underserved community more specifically the black community is still being told football and basketball is the way out.

Nobody's told soccer is the way out. Yeah. You know, so I think it'll change here. Definitely by 2026, I think, is when it's a visible shift in the trend. Awesome. Let me ask real quick about the, you mentioned the MLS Academy system, and I know you came up in the D.C. United Academy, but you've also, you know, you've also been at several different clubs in MLS so you've probably seen how these academies function how are they different

now than they were back when you came up and you know how are they better because we all assume that they're better now than they were 12 years ago yeah they're better they're better I mean all around man all around facilities resources um we're now being we're we're now enticing to that are elsewhere and overseas. They want to come here and be part of the development process. I mean, they've got a lot of experience out there in Europe. And then there's also opportunity with the American structure, right? Like we, say, to say our setup is different.

And even like an academy coach, there's always an opportunity to, you know, develop that next player that person gets sold for 20 mil. know, and like, that brings opportunities to them, too. And what I noticed, all the teams that I've been to and the interaction I have with the academy infrastructure, you see really passionate people that are really about developing players. And, you know, I didn't get that when I was that age.

I did not get the continuous understanding of what it takes to play the game at the highest level and wasn't getting the treatment and the, you know, ability to go and practice with pro players or watch the games with them, you know. So all these things are, I think, just setting up a perfect environment to nurture a new wave of aspiring American soccer players. and we're at a good place in terms of like, you know, I obviously wish it happened when I was around that age at the same time, I'm pretty excited to be able to like transition out of the game and watch where it's gone and kind of feel like I was a part of it, you know? And that's, these are the stories and, you know, actions in life that over time begin to

bring more purpose and fulfillment. Are you going to get into coaching? In some kind of way, yes, but probably not at a level as high as professional, just because there's other things about the professional experience that, you know, I've had to battle my whole career and, you know, being someone that is so about, how would you say, cultureing cohesive environment you can't always do that when it's about winning or making money

or all the various philosophies that people have. That's another thing you learn right. Everybody has different philosophy. No, there's not one that works for everybody. There's not one that doesn't work for everybody. So you're going to have to navigate different philosophies and be able to

you know, keep your energy at a place that is always going to be able to give, you know? So that's a, that's something that I think these kids, uh, as that's what I would like to see injected into the academy struck infrastructure, which ironically, that is a bit of a business idea slash plan that I've been looking at for after soccer. Um, being able to mold these kids into good people as well. Right. And not having them throw, well, you know, you can throw the eggs in the basket, but, you know, maybe you got a separate, you can create a separate little basket

to start dropping other eggs in just in case you lose the big basket. I don't know. Yeah, no, I'm tracking. That was so off the top. No, I'm tracking it. Yeah, I got you 100%. Because, you know, I mean, I noticed that even as a fan slash podcaster that, you know, some of these kids who've been,

all they've been doing is playing soccer since they were 12 and it would say they don't make it professionally. That is a sobering thing to think about. Oh, yeah. And then now you have social media reflecting your success or your failures on such a consistent basis. Like now you really have mental health as an issue because if we as society,

as adults in society, are going to feed into this system of, okay, yeah, we want to win, but also the business of sport is facilitating all these things, which makes these players desirable. When these kids see all these players on, you know, on the socials, they just want to get followers. They just want to get likes, you know, and that, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.

It's just, it's a narrow focus in a very, circumferential life. I don't even know if that's a word, but life is 360. So looking at one narrow angler degree is a full-on bet. And if it don't pan out, you're lost in a lot of space. Yep. Hey, thank you so much for your time. On behalf of the SCuff podcast, please thank your wife for us, too.

No doubt, no doubt. Appreciate it, man. It was good talking to you. Have a good one. Yeah, you too. Thank you. We'll see you.