Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #353: Joe Machnik joins the podcast

Episode Date: January 10, 2023

From playing on fields of crushed cinder in the German-American League to broadcasting World Cup games from Qatar, Joe Machnik has pretty much seen it all. A few days before his 80th birthday, he joins for an interview to discuss the builders of American soccer, the 1990 World Cup, what exactly a handball is, how MLS teams disposed of those clocks that were used to count down the 5 seconds given to a player for a shootout in the early days of the league, and much, much more.----Scuffed is an ad-free podcast. Support that and get exclusive episodes (more than 50 last year), plus access to the Discord including live call-in shows by signing up for our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/scuffed Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Scuff podcast where we talk about U.S. Soccer. Our guest today is someone you've heard on TV, almost certainly, but may not fully appreciate his role in American soccer. He's a 1965 U.S. Open Cup champion, National Soccer Hall of Famer, a pioneer of player coach and referee development in the game in this country, an assistant coach for the men's national team that played at the 1990 World Cup, and now a commentator for Fox Sports. He is Joe Machinick. Welcome to the scuff podcast, Dr. Joe. Thank you, Adam. Thank you. Really appreciate this opportunity.

It's one I don't get that often. And I appreciate being able to talk about soccer with folks that are really interested in the game. Also, I should mention you're about to celebrate a big birthday, right? Let me think. Friday, I think. It would be 80. I can't believe it.

Happy birthday. Thank you. That's a big one. Yeah. So let's start way back. You first made your name in American soccer in the 70s as a goalkeeper trainer. When did you begin focusing on goalkeeper training and how would you describe what goalkeeper training was like at the time and how was what you were doing different from what was

already available? Well, it actually goes back before the 70s. I was a player, goalkeeper at Long Island University in Brooklyn, New York, myself and Ray Cleveca, who later went on to be the coach of the Cosmos, were the first two so-called scholarships, athletic scholarships for soccer at that school. And so we turned around a program that didn't win a game. in two years. The first season that we were able to play back then, freshman couldn't play in the NCAA. You had to sit out a year, make sure you were eligible and all of that. So we turned that

program around the first year we were five and five, then a little bit the next year, probably 10 and something, and then the third year we actually made the NCAA tournament. And then during that time at LIU, I became, after our I graduated, I became graduate assistant coach and started really focusing on goalkeepers. And there were a few soccer camps developing in the country at that time. One of them was run by Walter Chisowitz, who later became national team coach. And I would go up to his camp and work out there goalkeepers who pretty much when I wasn't there were being just used for shooting practice for the other players.

And then so I got the idea a couple years after that to start a camp just for goalkeepers. And everybody made fun. Like, what are you going to do? There's for a whole week, there's not that much to learn, you know. And I guess we proved them wrong. So in 77, I started what was called number one goalkeepers camp. And the first year, we had 39 goalkeepers from 13 states. We did that in Connecticut at the Taft School.

And then we must have done a pretty good job because the next summer, we had over 200 goalkeepers from 39 states. Wow. And by year three, we then put a camp in Chicago and then in L.A., in Dallas. And at the height, we probably, we had 20-21 camps across the country just for goalkeepers. So it became the place to go. Everyone was sending their goalkeepers because we were doing things that nobody else was doing.

And I had a little bit of teaching skill. I grew up in New York City and the high school I went to was Brooklyn Tech. And in the gym class, we had 200 students at a time in the gym class. So I was able to look at teachers and see how they manage a group and can do a single lesson and then break it up into small groups. And so I developed a methodology that worked with the goalkeepers. And it was extremely successful. We were producing the top goalkeepers from major colleges. And at one time, we had five starting goalkeepers in MLN.

all graduates from the camp. Yeah. And names that you'll know, John Bush, Matt Reese, Nick Romando, Kevin Hartman, Joe Cannon, you know, and that's not to mention Dave Anoli, who was by that time coaching for New England Revolution. He's former national team goalkeeper. We had Tim Harris, the Olympic goalkeeper. We had them all.

So it was quite the thing. Yeah. Did you, I mean, wasn't Tony Miola at that camp at some point? Tony, Tony is an interesting story. So he was never a camper. Okay. Okay. So we're now, we're now like 1988, the beginning of my association with the national

team. And we had the goal, we had three goalkeepers. back then. Dave Vanoli, who I mentioned, Jeff Duback, who was the goalkeeper at Yale, and Jim Teigen's, who was the goalkeeper at St. Louis University. Those were the three national team goalkeepers. After we got out of the first qualification group, which was against Jamaica, we had home and a home against Jamaica. Then we got into the real qualification group for 1990 World Cup. And pretty much we were carrying two goalkeepers then, Vanoli and Duback. And so we started qualification, and our first game was away at Costa Rica. And this would be early 89.

And Duback was the starter. And we lost the game one zero, nothing. he was not to be blamed on the goal, but we were a little bit flat. And Dave and Oly had this really huge personality. If you remember or see pictures of him, he had American flags up his sleeve. He planted American flags in the goal. You know, he was very vocal. Players loved playing for him, and he was great in the locker room.

So we decided to give him the start. in our second game, which was also against Costa Rica, but this was played at St. Louis Soccer Park. Back then, if we got 3,500 people to a national team game, that was considered to be pretty good. Wow. So we managed to win that game. I believe 1-0. I think Ta-Ramos scored the goal, and Vanoli saved a penalty kick in the dying moments. Wow. So Vinoli became our goalkeeper. And then, you know, doing this whole time, there was a thing called the Marlboro Cup. And so we played in so many Marlboro Cups, Miami, Los Angeles. So there was a particular Marlboro Cup in what was then called Giant Stadium in New York City at New Jersey.

And Vinoli and Dubach were with us. Vinoli came to Camp Hurt, so he couldn't start Duback. was then scheduled to start, but we had no backup. So Tony Mayola was living like down the street, you know, in Carney and his friends, Harks and Ramos and those kids from New Jersey said, well, we need a backup call Tony. So he was like, you know, right there. So we brought him into practice. And they say, okay, you're going to dress, you're going to be the backup.

But then Dubek gets hurt in the first game. So Tony has to come in. He plays outstanding. The second game is against Peru. We shut out Peru 3-0. And then Miola becomes the co-keeper. And then he starts all the remaining games for the national team. And finishes with four straight shutouts.

people forget that, you know, and two of them were zero-zero ties so that if he doesn't make a shutout, you know, I mean, we're, we don't qualify for that World Cup. Everybody remembers Trinidad and Paul Calajuri's goal in that big game, but, you know, it was the Dave Winole's penalty kick in the second game, which saved three points, and Miola's four shutouts, which saved points that made the Trinidad game even possible. And of course, we went down to Trinidad. Miola played well again. We got the shutout. Caliguri scored the magic goal, and we qualified for the World Cup and Viola was our goalkeeper moving forward. When you guys went down the street and roused him from his home in Kearney, New Jersey,

what was what did mulea have to work on back then as a goalkeeper like what were his uh nothing nothing he was a fabulous athlete you know he played baseball also uh and for his high school he was a field player because he his best friend uh was also a goalkeeper so he he kind of forfeited the goalkeeper position and so you play go i'll play on the field i mean he had a left foot he had a right foot, he was big, he was strong, he had footwork, he had everything that a goalkeeper of that time, you know, he had all the tools. Okay. Well, you know, we, on our podcast, we've done some recaps of historic national team games,

and we did, we did recap the 1990 loss to Czechoslovakia, the 5-1 loss, which I assume you were on the, you were on the sideline for that game, right? Yes, I was, of course. Okay. Yeah. So I wonder, you know, going into that game, what did, what was the sort of feeling in the group? Was it, hey, we're, we have a chance to win this? Like, we can win this.

Or was it, like, let's just go out and put in a respectable performance? Because obviously the team did against Italy in the next game. What was the mood? Well, it was more than just a mood. So we were in a group, as you know, with Czechoslovakia, our first game, Italy, the second game, Austria the third game. So Walter Chisowitz, who was still working for U.S. soccer at the time as technical director and Bob Gansler, head coach. You know, back then it was difficult to scout teams. In fact, we had to, there was a lot. a journalist in Hartford, Connecticut that worked for the Hartford newspaper that had a giant,

what do you call it, satellite dish, giant satellite dish in his yard. And he was the one that we would go to to get tapes, VHS tapes of various games. His name was Jerry Trecker. He's the brother of Jim Trecker that is still very much involved in the Hall of Fame. So we had tapes of the various teams that we were going to play. We thought that we had a shot to get points against Czechoslovakia because they, number one, I believe they qualified in their very last game. But in their preparation games leading to the World Cup, in their practice games, they hadn't won a game.

And there was reports of disharmony in the team. because some of the players had already managed to escape over the iron curtain and were playing in Italy making huge money. And there was dissension with those players that were still in Czechoslovakia, I found out all of this later when after the World Cup, all of the coaches were asked to come back to Corvacchano, the Italian national team training camp. and for seminars.

And I was assigned the topic, you know, what did we learn in our first World Cup after 40 years? Bob couldn't go because he was still with the team and that team was playing somewhere else in Europe. So I did that and I approached the Czechoslovakian coach and actually asked him this question. And he said, yeah. He said, we were a mess as a team. and we, you know, but when we got to Italy, we were able to put it together and, and, you know, played some really, really good games. So we were fooled, I guess, in the preparation. You know, we thought we could get a point maybe, you know. We didn't think we would get a point against Italy in Rome, you know, the host country.

and Austria, if the records can be checked, Austria had won all their pre-season, all their pre-cup training games, even beating Netherlands and Netherlands, which was a huge win. Right. We thought, you know, if there was a chance to get points,

it would be against Czechoslovakia. And we played an open game against them, and we got hammered five to one. One of the goals was a penalty. There was a second penalty. which Tony saved and it was embarrassing, you know, to say the least.

They were good, I mean, at least watching the tape. Yeah, no, well, and they went on to do very well in that World Cup. Yeah. And I will say this, too, that, you know, playing in Conca Cap as we did and do,

you know, we were even at that time, bigger, stronger, faster. You know, there many of the, the athletes from Guatemala and Costa Rica and Honduras and those countries, when we came up against Czechoslovakia, even lining up in the tunnel, looking at them, I mean, their legs were like, you know, I mean, these were real soccer players. They're, I don't want to say, I mean, their butts were like, you know, I mean, you couldn't knock them off the ball. The center of gravity was so good. And some of them were, you know, some of them became,

Stars. Novak came later to MLS and played with Chicago. That big number nine ended up in- Karavi. Garavi was fabulous. Yeah. Yeah. So they also, you know, playing in Conker-Kaff, we weren't used to that level of long-range shooting. And so, I mean, these guys can hit the ball 25, 30, 35 yards. more accurately than we were used to dealing with. So it was an eye-opening experience. Sure.

Now, going back a little bit, you coached hockey as well as soccer at one point in your career, right? Yeah. Back then in the 60s, you know, there were very few full-time soccer coaches. If you wanted to be a soccer coach in college, you had to do something else as well, be the intramural director, be the sports information director or coach another sport. I mean, so when I took the job at the University of New Haven after three years at L.I.U, you know, I had to take another sport. So I took hockey because it's related a little bit to soccer.

I grew up in New York City. I was a big hockey fan, Ranger fan. I saw my first game, 1953, in the old garden, where you could, with a high school ID card, you can go to the game for 40 cents. So, yeah. And so we went all the time. Back then, the games were like only two hours long.

There was no TV, no TV timeout. So 7 o'clock game ended at 905, the latest. Just all action. Yeah, I was home by 930. So my parents let me go, you know, even on a school night. So, yeah. So what do you think are the, what do you think are the, what are the similarities between the two sports? And what are the differences, maybe even more important?

Because I, I lived in Minnesota for a while. Everybody loved hockey up there. It was always on it. my friend's house, I could never, like, really get it. It's really hard. It's really hard. Well, you can't follow the puck half the time. You have to, you know, if you're watching on TV, you've got to really feel the body language

of the players to know, to know what's happening. But what was really important for me at the time was the refereeing system. So back then was one referee and two linesmen. And you, and there was only a six-team league. So they only had three referees. So the linesmen were local. They were the same two guys that, you know, lived down the block. So you got to know the refereeing style of the referees.

And it was the same for soccer, one referee and two linesmen. So I embraced this feel, feel for the game, so to speak. And, you know, the body language of the referees and how they control the game and how they dealt with the players. So when indoor soccer started, major indoor soccer league, I was asked by the same Walter Chisowitz, would I take over or become the first referee in chief for the MISL? Because I knew it was going to be now a soccer game played in a hockey rink and with some of the same rules, time penalties and three-line passes and one referee and da-da-da. So, I mean, that was a great fun, fun time for me. I did that for five years, and I refereed the first indoor game, first MISL game. Pete Rose kicked out the first ball.

I refereed first couple All-Star games, and one of them was in Madison Square Garden, which, being this hockey fan growing up, that was, you know, a major thrill for me. the referee in Madison Square Garden. And then I had to pretty much organize a referee program because the Indoor League was fighting the Outdoor League and the Outdoor League was preventing their referees from refereeing indoors. So we actually started the first full-time referee program in America

by hiring six referees to referee all of the indoor games in the MISL. And that program, organizing that program and servicing it is actually what led to my being hired by MLS. Okay, because MLS when it started, U.S. soccer was not ready to facilitate a referee program for that level of play. And they needed someone to organize it. After one year, it was really chaotic. 202 different officials refereed in the first year of MLS. So, I mean, not all in the middle, obviously, because you had ARs and fourth official. But, you know, you've got to cut down the numbers to get consistency. Right.

So I got hired in year two. And for the next 15 years, I was the referee guy who was the referee guy who was dealing with U.S. soccer, who owned the referee program, and the Canadian Soccer League when we finally had teams in Toronto and later on Vancouver. But back to the, back to hockey and soccer real quick. What are the crucial differences between the sports? Like in how you score goals, essentially, is what I'm thinking. Is it the same, same concept, basically?

Well, yeah, I mean, certainly the offside is completely different because you, You know, you post up in front of the goalkeeper and you try to, and you try to screen him, unless he sees with the puck, you're better, the better chance you get. But, but in essence, offside is also the same because the blue line is you can relate that to the second to last defender. Okay. And as it moves, except the blue line in hockey is stationary. And in hockey, it moves, in soccer, it moves, you know, up and down with the second to last defender.

Obviously, substitutions are different, you know, but, you know, tracking back and manmarking and all of those things, there's a lot of similarities. It's, you know, and if you look at what some of the hockey players are doing as a warm-up now in the hallways prior to them putting on their skates, they're all kicking soccer balls. Right. I've done with soccer balls. So it was fun. I only did hockey for three years at New Haven. Then I got a sabbatical leave to study for my Ph.D. And when I came back, the athletic director got into, you know, he was asked to leave.

And then I became acting athletic director and then later athletic director. So I never picked up hockey again. and I stayed with soccer for a while and then gave that up to go to the Indoor League and then came back to the university to start the women's program in the 90s and then left that to go to MLS.

Most of the work you just described was with professional, you know, referees, refereeing professional games. But I do wonder what your, you know, what is your sense of the referee shortage at the grassroots level in America and how to solve that. Maybe your description of the problem

and your description of the solution. I'll tell you, I coach my kids' rec soccer teams here in North Georgia, and just this last season we couldn't even get, there just wasn't any, there weren't any refs available. And it doesn't matter that much. It's pretty low intensity, but it helps the kids feel like they're partisan,

something when there's like a real ref there, you know, calling the game. It makes a big difference, I think, in how they feel about the game. And we can't get a ref. So I wonder what you think is going on. And you would think that with the professionalization of refereeing now in America, I mean, there are careers to be had. And there's, you know, in Major League Soccer, there are full-time referees. And they have a union.

And even in the second division and third division, they're unionized now and they're getting decent pay. So you would think that young referees would be motivated that we should have no problem finding referees. But you got to remember two things. the amount of games now is just incredible. I mean, there's soccer all over the country now. Back then, there was no such thing as a soccer facility. And I'm not talking, you know, like the first soccer-specific stadium. I'm not talking to that.

I'm talking places with 20 soccer fields where, you know, they have these tournaments and where you come together and you see in a given day, they probably need 30, 40 referees just to, you know, to fill those games and referees are doing two, three games a day. You would think that there would be, you know, this desire to become a referee. Now that at the top level, referees are being glamorized and getting paid. But you know, and I know you asked the question, so you would ask me to talk about the abuse that referees are getting at the youth level and otherwise.

I mean, even, does the name Essie Bahamas mean anything to you? Essie was one about FIFA referees, who was a World Cup referee, not the one that just did the final. We're going back to the one that had the shirt pull in the Brazil, the Norway game, where he got criticized for three days for being the worst referee at the World Cup. Oh, okay. until they found a video of, you know, the shirt being pulled back and then he became a hero.

Well, Essie later went on to become head of referees at U.S. soccer. He's a good friend of mine. And as a daughter who at 1415 was a referee, right? Essie Bahamas's daughter. And she goes to her dad and says, I can't do this anymore. I mean, it's just, you know, the names you're being called, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the stuff you're having to deal with on the sidelines. She referees volleyball now.

So, I mean, lots of kids try it and don't stay with it. And, you know, I mean, it's not that kids deliver papers anymore, newspapers anymore. I don't think they do that. But even 15 years ago, it was so much a better job than delivering newspapers, right? Because, like I said, do three games a day, probably. Even if it was $15 a game at that level for 70 minute game, whatever. So with it, $45 or more, 60.

The great Saturday, right? I cleaned a bingo hole every Saturday for $5. So, yeah. But the kids can take it. And I mean, there are some clubs where they don't allow parents to come to the games on specific weekends. But you can't ask the referee to throw out a parent. It becomes a hostile situation. And it's, you know, things are a little bit nuts right now around.

All youth sports, really. Yeah, you can't get into confrontation with people. You can, you know, it's just, you don't know where it's going to go. So, yeah, so the kids are quitting. They join, they're learning the rules, they buy a uniform, they last a couple of years, they quit. Cultural renaissance, I guess, is what we need or something. Well, we need, number one, we need the parents and the players to know the rules, which is a starting point, I would think.

Number two, get a greater understanding, have a referee, make it mandatory for the parents to attend the referee meeting prior to the season where the referees explain how there are basically three, maybe four decisions in a game that are going to affect the outcome. Now, forgetting game control, which is also an important part, but a referee has to decide penalty kick or no penalty kick. Yellow card or red card or no card, right? Offside or not offside.

All of these are match critical that can determine the outcome of a game because the game is a one-goal game. So you make a call regardless of which call, side of the call. You're either given the penalty or you're not. You can make a mistake either way. It should have been a penalty that you don't give or it's, you know, or it's wasn't a penalty that you give. So and video review hasn't helped because what video review has done has shown that the referees are human and that they make mistakes even at the highest level. So when we're showing top level referees get a penalty kick decision wrong,

that someone in a video booth has to look at basically 16 different angles to get a different angle that the referee gets. In order to take to the referee, maybe you would come to the screen and take a look at this other angle, and you might change your mind. So all of that just puts doubt in the ability of the, it puts doubt and the ability of the referee. who doesn't have video review. Yeah.

So because it's all about angles, what looks like a clean play from one side, from one camera is a foul looking at it from another camera. Well, it seems like. Sorry, the camera behind the goal is the best camera, especially for things in the penalty area. Right. But the referee doesn't have that view.

Right. You remember maybe 10 years ago in UEFA, they had a referee on the goal line? Do you remember that? I don't remember that, no. Oh, yeah. So Michelle Plotini, who was still a FIFA vice president or whatever, that was his baby. So he had referees, you know, normal three referees, fourth official, a referee on each goal line. And that referee had a headset, no flag.

He had a headset, but he would advise the referee on that angle, which was from behind the goal, which was often the key angle to get it right. But Plattini got into trouble with FIFA, and when he got out, to put out, they threw out his baby. That was his baby. Through the baby out with the bathwater, I guess. That was his baby, the referees on the goal line. Well, a few more questions about just about the growth of soccer in America before we get to some rules questions. In your opinion, who did the most to advance soccer in this country before 1990?

Who are maybe three people who come to mind? Number one, Detmar Kramer. Without a doubt. So after the World Cup in 1970, which was in Mexico, Kramer, who was a FIFA instructor, was sent to America to run three coaching schools. They were run all three of them in consecutive weeks. They were one week long at the Moses Brown School in Providence,

sponsored by Southern New York State Soccer Association. I went to the first one, the first week, along with 16 other guys. We thought we knew something about soccer. We didn't know anything about soccer. Okay? There were very few books to read at that time. There was virtually no soccer on TV.

The World Cup of 1970 was shown on closed circuit TV in theaters, like Madison Square Garden, giant screen theaters. So it was basically a foreign sport. So he first of all came and talked to us like the physical dimension, the tactical dimension, the technical dimension, and the psychological dimension, four dimensions of soccer. We never even heard of this and broke it down to make it such a simple game. after week one other people were hearing about what our opinion was they were calling us on the pay phone in the dorm

what was it should I sign up for week two so like in week two Walter Chisowitz signs up Al Miller signs up blah blah bah Prima asked me to come back for week two and three to do the goalkeeping because that was my assignment because you had to do an on-field assignment to pass the course So who brought Kramer over? Like whose idea was it to have FIFA? Okay. He not only went to U.S., he went to Japan. He went to all.

There were several FIFA coaches that went to so-called undeveloped soccer countries. Okay. So then there was week three. So I think in the first three weeks, maybe 50 coaches went through that program. Okay. Kramer actually was offered the job, director of coaching for the U.S. and national team coach. And he turned it down when Bayern Munich, Beckham Bauer asked him to come to Bayern Munich to be their coach. Okay. So now Kramer has to appoint someone to follow up and do the coaching schools in his absence, year two, year three, you four. So he appoints the second most important person, Walter Chisowitz, all right, who was one of the first three guys to get what was called the A license back then.

There was the A, the B, the C. When you went to this school, it was not like you went to an A licensed school like it is now. You went to this and you were given the A, the B, or the C, depending upon how you did. Okay? So like, oh, very few got A. I received the B the first time, mostly because as a goalkeeper, I didn't have on-field playing. You know, like today, goalkeepers are players. In fact, now they call, this is a new one, the goal player.

No more goalkeeper, the goal player, right? So, but I mean, I didn't have a left foot. I didn't have, you know, could hardly juggle, got to that. And one of the Kramer's things was a picture's worth a thousand words. and if the coach can't show what how to do something, then it can't be the coach. There was no internet. There were no video. There was no, you know, back then.

So the coach had to be this demonstrator. So later on I got an A in 1974 when I went back to take the course a second time. And then I became the goalkeeper coach, coach for all of those coaching schools, which then led to the development. of the camp, which we talked about, and then later my appointment to the national team as the goalkeeper coach. So, Detmar-Walter Chisowitz, third, we're in Africa. We're in Africa. He was vice president of U.S. soccer at a time where we were nowhere, okay, and we were broke. And so he becomes president, and he determines he,

he's going to do something about it. So he puts up his personal line of credit from his construction company and his other business that he had in Philadelphia. And we win the 1994 World Cup. But, you know, based on that application, you know, which changes soccer in America, leads to the development of MLS.

You know, I mean, you know, you can, There are certainly others, Bob Gansla, the coach of that 90 team. So just so I understand, he put money up from his construction business for what purpose exactly? Letter of credit for the application to host 1994 World Cup. Okay. Wow. I didn't know that. Yeah.

Yeah. And then when we get the World Cup, there was always this rumor that if we didn't qualify, in 90, they would take it away. So there was this pressure of winning that game in Trinidad was huge. Because no team up until that time, no team had ever been, no country had ever been awarded a World Cup that didn't qualify the year, the World Cup before. Like, okay, so this time we had Qatar, right, got the World Cup,

but they never qualified before. So it was going to be, there was a chance they were going to be taken, it was going to be taken away. And then when we finally got it, then FIFA began to realize that we were still unprepared as a nation. And they, they actually put up someone else to run for president of U.S. soccer and Alan Rothenberg, who had experience running the Olympics. here in America where soccer was a big, was the number one attended sport a couple of years before. And then he became president of U.S. soccer. And then we had the most successful 1994 World Cup in terms of attendance was the most successful World Cup ever. Even then and maybe even now.

I mean, I don't know. I think it might still be, yeah. Might still be. Yeah. That's great. Thank you for that thorough answer. Shortly after, both were in Africa and Walter Gizzoitz passed away. Yeah.

Yeah. So where are we in our development as a soccer nation, in your opinion? You know? So what's the barometer? Okay. So what's the barometer? Is national team performance the barometer? So let's look at that barometer.

So men's national team. Right. So it's a game of inches soccer, right? So we get out of the group and we face Holland, Netherlands. So you recall Pulisic's goal, a goal attempt, like in the 16th minute, I think it was. Yeah, very early. Very early. that he's on side because there's a guy at the top of the screen.

So does he, he misses that by an inch, right? And so then it becomes a different game if we score. Okay. Go to the final. Three minutes to go in the second added time period, extra time period. The kick save made by the Argentine goalkeeper, matter inches. Okay.

Guy puts it a little bit higher. He's not going to save it. It's going to go off of us. Even if he gets his hand to it, it's going to bend his arm backwards and go into the goal. Then France scores that goal. Doesn't even go to penalties. France is the national champion. Messy.

Right? So it's a matter of inches. I mean, we have players now. We can field a national team of players playing in Europe at high levels. back in 90 the only players that we had that were playing at high levels European soccer were goalkeepers you know later and then I had Friedel

Casey Keller Friedel you know I mean nobody was playing for Ray or Harks played a little bit but you know so our players are better we have more players back in 90 we had maybe

eight players and and and and and the rest will reserves that you know if if you put them into the game the the level of play would go be lowered but you maybe they would bring something positive where you could change the game today we got well we have 40 players right or more i mean right we left players home that could have made a contribution so but you don't know right and also So, I mean, players get hurt and whatever. On the women's side, we were the number one country in the world, still ranked number one, but the rest of the world is catching up. Soccer is a game where you have to have freedom.

You know, every player is a quarterback. You get the ball. You have to make a decision. You have to make decisions before you get the ball. So it was the countries that had open societies where women were allowed to make decisions and weren't held captive or incandestine environments. Those are the countries that led in early women's soccer, but now women are more free around the rest of the world, and more countries are playing good women's soccer.

So in terms of participation, if we want to use that barometer, I talked about the number of fields and soccer facilities and MLS. I mean, how many teams cities want MLS? And now you got lower division teams in almost every city. And we're not talking, you know, one of the things you wrote to me earlier when we first started to talk about. this was my experiences in the so-called Cosmopolitan League in New York City. Well, when I played in that league for the New York Ukrainians, it wasn't even the Cosmopolitan League. It was the German-American Soccer League before it was named the Ka. When the Cosmos became famous, they adopted that name, Cosmopolitan League.

So, well, back then, the German-American League was the number of that and the American League It was the top league on the East Coast. But every team was an ethnically team. So you had the Greek Americans, you had inter-Juliana, New York Hungarians, Schwabin, pretty much every nationality. And it was, you know, only 10, 12, 15 years after World War II. So there were some hostilities. I bet.

You know, between the sidelines. Yeah. But mostly an immigrant league, like, you know, right? It was an immigrant league. Yeah, basically. I was one of the few. I mean, I don't know if this is a bragging point. But I was one of the few American born. I'm third generation American to crack that league. So, and I only did so because I met some Ukrainian kids in high school that took me to their club, the New York Ukrainians, which was in East Village, New York. And that club later became a very big club, won the Open Cup.

I was the backup goalkeeper for that club in the Open Cup. But that's where I really learned my soccer. Because I met Walter Chiswitz there. And I really, you know, because I would be, I would go behind the goal. And, you know, back then the juniors played at 11, the reserves played at 1, the first team played at 2. So all on the same field. So I would play the junior game, then go behind the goal of the reserve game, and go behind the goal of the first and then emulate what I, you know, if a goalkeeper made a mistake, I made sure I didn't make that same mistake when I was a player. So it was fabulous.

And, you know, there would be 1,500, 2,000 people a game, spectators on fields with no grass. Some fields were made of crushed cinder. You know, I mean, it was, and they were used, I could send you pictures. They were used so often that there would never, grass could never grow. Right. So even if they planted it. And there was no artificial turf then. And there was no sod like we know it today.

So, so yeah, it was, it was, you came home and, and, you know, you would stick to your sheets at night. Yeah. From where the raspberries from your slide tackles and saves that you had to make. But it was, it was stuff. I wonder when we'll get to the point where, like, you know, I don't know if you watch football, but. NFL? Well, or college football. Like last night.

I watch NFL. Unfortunately, I'm a New York Jets fan, and I followed the Jets when they were the Titans, which might have been before you were the born. Well, I only bring it up because last night, you know, Georgia demolished TCU, but one of a kid from Chatsworth, Georgia, which is a small town, not too far from where I live, scored three touchdowns. Name was Ladd McConkey. And, you know, you go back and look at some of the great American athletes.

They came from, a lot of them come from small towns or small cities, you know, in the heart of the country. Michael Jordan's from Wilmington, Mickey Mantle's from, like, the hills of eastern Oklahoma. And I still don't know that soccer has really, it doesn't really have roots in those kind of places as much as it does in, like, the big cities. I guess I just wonder, you know, how long it'll take for that to happen. You know, I mean, I think you're right. Yesterday I went for a haircut and the person cutting my hair was like telling me about the final, the World Cup final that he watched and I think was the first game he ever watched. Did he know who you are?

No, I eventually told him not who I was, but I told him that I wasn't. in Qatar, but I didn't tell him who I was. But that's how the conversation actually got started. And then he said, I think the high school plays soccer, he said. And the high school down here is called Wando, because the river is Wando. And they've been playing soccer for 30 years. Yeah, I mean, and they're good. So it's, yeah, you're right.

Anyway, it doesn't get the publicity in the newspapers and TV, aside from really important games, TV is, ratings are not that strong. While we were doing the final, if you remember, when it went into the extra time, it had the possibility of cutting into Sunday NFL at 1 o'clock Eastern. Do you remember that? And it was like, what's going to happen? Are they going to cut away? Are they going to cut away from the World Cup to go to the opening kickoff of 1 o'clock? I'm glad they didn't have, they definitely didn't.

But did they even have to make a choice? They didn't have to make the choice. But if it would have gone to 1112, rounds of penalties it might have. If you remember, they immediately switch from Big Fox, what we call Big Fox, to FS1 for the award ceremony. I do remember that, yeah. We have a bunch of questions submitted from people who subscribe to our podcast on Patreon,

and I'll just put in a plug. If you're interested, check us out on Patreon that you get exclusive episodes. You can become a member of the Discord. First question comes from Nate from Oregon, and he asks, what does your battle station look like? My battle station? Your battle station that you work from. You know, how many monitors do you have? Okay, so I do a lot of stuff from home.

Okay, so they've given me what's called a home cam. And so I have this, can you see me? I can see you, yeah. Okay, so I'm going to move the thing. So behind me is the big box. You see it? Yep. And then that little round thing on top is the home cam.

Okay. You just have it covered with a piece of plastic right now. Yeah, yeah. Okay. It protects the lens. And then see a little higher is one of the sets of lights. Got it. Okay.

And then behind me, the other way is the big screen. That's actually the backdrop. up. So that lights up. You know, that says Fox, whatever. And then in the chair I'm sitting in is a whole sound apparatus thing with the headset, just like the one you're wearing, that I put on. So when I'm watching a game at home, I watch it on the little monitor that's there. Can you see it? Yep. Underneath the camera. And then I have a TV there, okay? The problem is the TV, because it comes over direct TV, is 17 seconds later. Yeah. Okay. So it's a real handicap because I'm seeing what you see. Okay. On both monitors?

No. Well, yes, on both. Okay. So on the monitor, I'm seeing the TV production. Okay. And then I'm seeing on my TV. I'm seeing the TV production, but 17 seconds later. Okay. Okay. But so I'm seeing the same replays, okay, that are provided to the viewer often after I'm asked to give an opinion or or I'm asked to give an opinion before seeing a replay sometimes. I know that because I heard from our friends that I was doing a Philadelphia. game and I know that I really messed up on an offside decision. The problem was that I was still reviewing the penalty kick decision that happened a minute before. Okay. And what I should have said is to JP, Delacamara, when he called me, I should have said, JP, I'm sorry. I don't have a

clear look at this. You know, rather than... Because I feel like I've heard you say that before. I don't have a clear look at this. Okay. So there is a machine. There is a machine. There is a There's a machine called it EVS, and they actually call it Elvis, the machine, where you can make your own replays. Okay? So even at the World Cup in Qatar, I didn't have that machine the first 10 games. Okay, finally they set it up for me and Mark Clattenberg. So we could immediately go back, see the point of contact or see the offside order, and come. comment with some sense of intelligence, you know, as to what happened. So you really need to have

that machine to do the job that you're being asked to do. You know, yesterday I was talking with Brian Hall, who's the former head of referees in Concord, and he said, were you in guitar or were you at home? I said, no, I was in guitar for five weeks, da-da-da. And then I explained to him how it was done. And he said, holy, smokes. How do you do that? So anyway, it's, if you remember the first game of the World Cup, there was an incident in four minutes. Okay, the first, the first-O-Katar, right? Yeah, the first off-side decision. They disallowed, who was it going, Ecuador?

Yeah, it was Ecuador, yeah. Ecuador scored a goal in four minutes. And then the referee was told, hold on, hold on, we're looking at this. but they didn't tell, I didn't know what they were looking at. Okay? One, were they looking for a foul? Okay, which would, you know, if there's a foul in the attacking phase, you can disallow the goal.

And there were two offside situations there. An obvious one where the goalkeeper had come out and a player was behind the goalkeeper. And then a third one, where a second offside, third thing to look at, which could not be seen with the naked eye. It was a perfect opportunity for me to say, and I was thoroughly rehearsing my mind. They're using semi-automated, semi-automatic off-site technology, which has 12 additional cameras, which measures 29 points on every player's body at 50 images a second, and they may be able to pick up an off-site on display, which I can't see.

If I would have said that, it would have been golden. Okay? But I didn't. All right? Because I kind of caught by surprise in the four minutes. I didn't have the replay machine. And I started to talk about an offside decision, which was not the offside decision they were looking at. Okay.

But after when we got the machine, me and Mark Clattenberg, then we were, you know, much better. It seems hard. Like live TV is hard enough. but to have to deal with all that and be called on. And you have to, you know, you only get called on when it's very controversial moment, you know. And it's not like NFL where, you know, where it's stop action. So there's nothing going on while we're asking to review this play. Right.

And you understand what I'm saying. There's 30 seconds between plays. So you could, you could, by that time, it would have been able to go to my TV, which is 17 seconds. and replay that on the TV a little bit and see something. So it is what it is. I'm not complaining. I'm just telling you how it is. No, it's interesting to hear about how it really is.

How do you prepare for a game? Like, what prep do you need to do to be ready? Well, first of all, I study the referees. Okay. Right here are the referees who just been assigned yesterday to Women's World Cup. Okay. Okay. So I will start doing my homework, and I don't even know if I'm working Women's World Cup yet.

But I will do bios on every one of these referees, which games they have had, how they got there. And I give that information to the broadcasters so that when they say, oh, the referee's 48 years old, he or she's been FIFA since 2017. The last time they refereed Honduras was a da-da-da, this was the score. That's all information that I prepare. Obviously, you have to be on time with the laws of the game and all of their interpretations. So I attend classes. Saturday was a U.S. soccer seminar for four hours for all the referee coaches, you know, the ones that go to the tournaments and evaluate the referees.

So I attend those. When MLS starts, their head of VAR, his name is Greg Barkey. He runs like every two weeks, a seminar on all the VAR decisions. Okay, I attend those. Come up on Zoom. And I, so you, you know, and I have, hold on, I have cheat sheets. Okay, so when my office is set up, I don't have a game coming up in quite some time. When my office is set up, I actually brought these to guitar.

Here's my references for dog sew, denial of obvious, you know, because you've got to use the right choice of words. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're right. So offside, you name it, I got it. Handling, right? So, and these are posted, what's the difference between careless, reckless, and excessive force? I've got these posted all over so that I have a.

an immediate reference point without having to look at the law book. Just because people aren't going to be able to see this, you're holding up sheets with handwritten notes on them. Magic Barker. Yeah. Big sheets. Yeah. And I got, you know, you name it, I got it.

Any, oh, I've used this one, actually quoted this one a couple times. Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, the side or behind, using one or both legs with excessive force or endangering the safety of the opponent is guilty of serious foul play. It's good when you can quote the entire rule. Right. Well, that brings me to a question from, um, uh, J.H. In Denver, seriously, he says, what is a handball?

You want, so this is 2000 and, uh, what's 23? Yeah, it's 23 now. Yeah. So they've changed, they've changed a handball law. you know, umpteen times already. They've taken out the word deliberate. But that used to be an important word. When a player deliberately, you know,

and now the referee had to decide, almost read the player's mind. Was it deliberate or not? So they've taken that out, and they pretty much said, now if the player makes himself or herself unnaturally bigger, okay, through the position of his hand or arm, and that position is not related to the performance of that skill,

okay? The player takes a risk of being hit by the ball and being penalized. Right. So now, that means delivered. It's totally gone because you're being hit by the ball even. Right. Okay. And you're not deliberately having your hand out there.

It might be just a, it might be just a, you know, a reaction. So the referee has to decide, is this normal for a person doing this play? You know, is he or she making themselves bigger unnaturally? Yeah, it's lucky for Rahim Sterling. He's not a defender because his arms are always out like this anyway. Well, this is important because attacking handballs are now different than defensive handballs. Because if an attacker completely accidentally, even being hit by the ball, scores a goal directly or immediately thereafter, the goal must be disallowed.

So even in a handball that you would not call on a defender, Okay, if the attacker is guilty of the same handling violation and the ball is scored either directly by that handle or immediately thereafter by that same player, the goal must be disallowed. So, I mean, so that's even a rule change, right? So that handballs are different depending upon what penalty area you're in. I didn't realize that. I'm glad to know that. It does kind of make sense, but Austin B. in Knoxville, Tennessee, asks, what's the one rule you would change if you could and why?

That's easy. So, because I've been asked that before multiple times. And that's the substitution for potential concussion. for potential concussion. Okay, so two players hit heads, right? One player goes down, he's holding his head. I mean, I've asked doctors about this. Doctors have told me that a real good concussion protocol examination

could take six to eight minutes, right? We're putting players back in the game after two minutes, one minute even. Some of them not even being taken out of the game. So the rule change I would make would be that there's, yes, FIFA now has concussion substitute that if a player is concussed, you can use the concussion substitute and it not be counted as one of the five. But what the rule should be, that a player could substitute. for a player who's being examined for concussion protocol, that six to eight or even 10 minutes,

as long as it takes. And if the doctor says the player's okay to go back in, then that player goes back in, the substitute for that player comes off, and it doesn't count as a son. Okay. They do it now in the youth a little bit, but we're far from doing it in real senior soccer. And, you know, part of it is a fear that it would be used in gamesmanship. Right. You know, and, but you know, you're playing with people's lives in this thing, really. That knows out. Matt in New Jersey, he calls it the Great Garden State, which I know that's its nickname.

What rule in soccer is the hardest to explain or get across to an audience that you know might not watch the game and are only tuning in for the World Cup and why? All right. The hardest thing right now is in an offside situation where the defender actually makes contact with the ball. And the ball goes to the attacker. Now the referee has to decide, did the defender make a deliberate play or is it a deflection? If the defender makes a deliberate play, that puts the player on side. But if it's a deflection, the player is deemed to be offside. or gaining an advantage from being in an offside position has to be flagged and whistled. So they, even after the new rulebook came out, this rule book, which comes out in July, three July, they had to write an addendum called Circular 26 to further explain the difference between deliberate play and deflection. And I, you know, part of what I do is for the often write summaries of referee decisions for the broadcasters.

So I believe that I can take a little bit of credit for the current set of broadcasters that do our games really understanding the laws of the game a lot more than they did 10 years ago. Because, I mean, I mean, I don't even think I could cite specific examples, but, you know, the fact that they do have, I think probably would exist in NFL too. I think the fact that there's a so-called rules analyst on the broadcast helps the broad. the play-by-play on color, better understand the game, become better prepared. And over time, as these explanations generate themselves, I've been new in 10 years now, they get it.

Yeah. So they don't make, you know, really bad errors. You know, and sometimes I don't get to come on, you know, but I will email or even at halftime has the producer to contact, you put me in touch with play by play and say, well, you know, this is why really, you know, and be careful of this because this is what they were looking for.

So you're not in their ear throughout the game, or not able to contact them throughout the game. The producer, I have a box where the producer can talk to me, I have to hit a button to speak back to the producer, and then the producer will open my mic to the play-by-play and color. So some, you know, it's a matter of style.

Some play-by-play color people will go to me sooner or more often, and others got it, you know, and they think they got it. They don't necessarily need me to explain it because they've explained it themselves. Okay. Denson Jenkins in Herodzburg, Kentucky, asks, What can rulemakers and referees do to stop simulation and extreme dissent that often goes unpunished? Maybe a penalty box, a sin bin, or just be more harsh on yellows and reds? What do you think?

Good question. Prior to the World Cup, there was a referee seminar for the media. And so we went to a meeting that was conducted by Colleen. the head referee and others. So they told us the three main topics or focal points, initiatives for the World Cup. One was the protection of players and they showed us a bunch of videos, the same videos they showed each team and the same videos that the referees were used in their learning and practice. This World Cup was most interesting. We did not see a single red card for serious foul play.

except the one play by the goalkeeper from Wales, I believe, who came out of the area, right, and took down the guy. And that had to go to VAR before it was determined that it shouldn't have been yellow. Referee first showed yellow, VAR, then this showed red. But we didn't get a straight red to a field player for the entire World Cup for a tackle such as the one I described to you, studs up, lunging two feet, one foot from the side. So they did a very good job eliminating that. Second point was respect for the game, respect for the referees. Simulation is considered an act of disrespect to the game. So they showed a bunch of simulation and that it would be penalized.

At the same time, they handcuffed the referees by telling them, You know, a game 11 against 10, a game 10 against 10, 10 against 9 is really not what soccer wants. You know, you have to work hard to manage situations and not give unnecessary yellow cards that could potentially wind up where you have to give a player a second yellow and send him off. Right. So you saw simulation addressed without yellow cards. You saw very few simulations got yellow cards, one or two, three, maybe at the World Cup. But the law requires that simulation is addressed by yellow cards. Third, this marving of the referee, it's called, I don't know, it's escaping me right now,

but I'll think of it. But anyway, mobbing of the referee to dispute a call or Yeah. I don't try to work, try to mass confrontation. It's called. Oh, yeah. Okay, mass confrontation. So, so it's terrible.

Okay. And it's, we talked about the kids that get abused on the sidelines by the parents and all. But, you know, as you get up to this higher level of game, you got this mass confrontation issue where, you could give in some of them, yellow, yellow, yellow, yellow, yellow, you know, five, six, seven yellows. Even they touch the referee. But the same handcuffing of the referee by the match authorities, you know, they want you to handle it through personality, through body language, through facial expressions.

And so you don't see, you don't see at the World Cup, yellow cards given for it. And the World Cup is the barometer. So it trickles down into every game, you know, to senior league, you know. But like in England, I believe, in the premiership, they can, the disciplinary committee can find teams for, not controlling their players in those situations. But finding teams is not the same. You don't know who pays a fine. You know what I mean?

So even if you find the player, you still don't know that he could write the personal check and then under the table they can reimburse them. So you really don't know who's paying the fine. The only way to manage it is for the player to be sent off. We had it in the early MLS descent was rampant. The referees, as I told you earlier, really weren't ready to do those games because, I mean, in early MLS we had big time players, Valderama, Dona Doni, you know, Marco Etchevary, Jaime Moreno, each team had, and the referees had not any experience refereeing, you know, so they weren't ready. It wasn't their fault. Yeah, you said there were 200 different referees.

200 person, yeah, at the various different, 202. It really wasn't their fault. So it took time to get them ready. And we had to make the group smaller and pick the ones that we thought we could do it. We had so many meetings with referees and players in the same room, right? So, you know, to work on that issue. But at the top of the game, the World Cup, it's still an issue. Because they don't want, they don't want to see the World Cup played 10 against 9.

They want the good players to play. I mean, that's what I just said. They want the good players to play. Look at the penalty kicks that messy. Look at the penalty kick that Messi got, that Lewandowski got, that Ronaldo got. Three of the softest penalty kicks, right? But Uruguay didn't get, they had opportunity for two penalty kicks. The referee even went to VAR, VAR was recommending penalty game and didn't give it.

And as a result, it got out. And Qatar had a 100% penalty in their game, their second game, I think. And while the score was still close, their forward stopped with the ball like near the six and got run over by the defender. a 100% penalty and the referee didn't give it. I mean, that was for me the main inconsistency

was on penalties and still, you know, that's a critical decision. Jorge Castillo in the Bay Area wanted to know why you think so few yellow cards were given for simulation. And I guess that explains it is they didn't want they wanted the good players to play. They didn't want

the refs were handcuffed. I think a simulation is a tricky one because, you know, it's got to, by the laws of the game, it's got to be no foul and you pretend that there was a foul, right? Well, there's simulation and there's embellishment of contact. Okay. Okay. So, you know, if there's contact, it's not simulation.

But when they embellish contract, contact, and you as a referee say, hey, I'm not giving you that, you know, you're making a meal out of a little bit of contact. But simulation is where there's no contact. whatsoever. And you try to, you try, you're either trying to get a penalty or you're trying to get somebody sent off. It feels like embellishment of contact is so much a part of the game at this point that. Yes. It's, it's always going to be with us. And it's trickled down into other sports even. Right. Basketball, football even, American football even. Yeah. Let's see,

just a few more questions. I don't want to take your whole day here. Whatever, don't worry. Patrick in New Jersey asks, FIFA pulls refs from all over the world. What are the major regional differences in how refs call games? And which ones, I guess he's asking, which regions cause the most problems at FIFA offense? I don't know if you want to answer that. No, I can answer that. The areas of the world where there's the highest level of soccer develops the highest level of referee.

So in UEFA and South America, you've got referees who can handle those games. And so typically, when the referees are picked for the World Cup, you'll get four or five from UEFA, two or three from South America. However, FIFA is made up of other areas of where they play soccer. And so, for example, and this is no disrespect to the person, but so a referee from the Caribbean, doesn't, on a weekly basis, referee the level of soccer necessary to be successful at the World Cup. But does this political need, for one of a better word, to include referees from all over the world? and I mean, they bring them in for seminars like three times. I mean, it's very, very professional now for World Cups.

I mean, they've already, as I show do, name the women referees for the women's World Cup. They'll probably have three major seminars before next July, where they're all brought in and trying to standardize what's a handball, lots of penalty kick, what's a. So, so. So that's a simple answer. You know, African soccer is not

Uafer soccer. And there's even levels of Uaifa, you know, a referee in Greece, refereeing Sunday in Greece, no disrespect to their level. It's not Germany. You know, it's not the premiership. So referee from the U.S. have done very well, much to the credit of Brian Hall, who I mentioned, Nessie Bahamas and Kerry Sites, women referees, and actually American in charge of all women

referees for FIFA. So they've, I mean, we had, what, six officials at Men's World Cup from Concaf? You know, from, you know, and they, did they did round of 16 and and uh yeah yeah and the american guy was uh the fourth official in the final right yeah and you want to know something that i take a little bit of pride in yes so after my 15 years of mLS then i was asked to work for pro the organization that took over officiating

for the professional leagues now and and and ishmael elfath was I was his coach mentor. The first two or three years of he worked in MLS. So I was with him in his first game in Montreal, which was in the Olympic Stadium, which is tough place to work because the field is not centered. It's like Yankee Stadium almost. Oh, okay.

Okay, where you don't have the, like, you don't even know where you are sometimes. There are optical illusions. Oh, is that where the Expos used to play? Yeah. Ah, okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I think so. So, so, you know, really tough. So, so he and I have that little bit of history. And so when he gets, and he's done, he's done the World Club Championship, FIFA the World Club title. And he's done under 20s. So wouldn't surprise me if he, you know, gets in the middle of a really big game in the next World Cup.

Of course, if the U.S. makes it, then he cannot because, I mean, there are some referees that actually root against their country so that they can get a game. But that's not certainly it's not something he would do. Well, if he did, I don't know that anybody could blame him too much. James Wilson and Alexandria, Virginia asks, are there alternatives to the penalty shootout that you would like to see in future international tournaments? Now, I know you, obviously, you had plenty of experience with the MLS, the early MLS way of handling penalty shootouts. Yeah. That's a good question also. So you mentioned hockey.

It's funny. We have shootout in hockey that the fans love, right, to break the tie in overtime. The same shootout in soccer the fans hate, the same, you know, the same concept, one-on-one with the gokeeper. Do the fans hate it? In soccer? Yeah. Yeah, they hated it. They hated it when MLS did it? Yeah, they hated it because they said it wasn't real soccer. They said we would rather have a tie than this phony thing, this shootout. I mean, I was heavily involved with the shootout. I, in fact, in year two, bought 10, $10,000 clocks to put on the goal line. so that we could actually see the five seconds.

You know, it was in, there were, there were down to the hundredth of a second clock to make sure, because otherwise, a referee was using his stopwatch to judge whether the player took the shot within the five seconds. Right. And at the end of the day,

when we abandoned the shootout, because nobody liked it, the players hated it, first of all. And the referees hated it. I'll tell you the two reasons. Referees hated it because they could do a great game for 90 minutes and screw up the shootout. Okay. I mean, sometimes in the shootout, you have to give a penalty kick. Okay, right? Okay. The players hated it because they got it hurt. Because it became one-on-one with the goalkeeper. Go-keeper confrontations.

You know, have most of the time that doesn't stand well. for the for the player uh so they hated it so and you saw many of the top players refused to take the early shootouts so you know there would be like number i did not know that yeah so so i don't want any part of this right so those two things but you know what happened to the shootout clocks after the abandonment of the shootout what some teams would have the shootout clock at the front of the stadium where you go in with your ticket with a sledgehammer and for $10 you got to take a whack at it. Wow. That's how much it was hated.

I didn't know there was that much animosity about it because like you see it on social media now and people are like, ah, remember the good old days when you used to settle a game this way? Yeah, no, I saw even Alexei Lala sent one out the other day. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate your time. Well, thank you.

Very much and all that you've done for American soccer. I appreciate it. Thank you. I'm fortunate that, you know, I was there when so much was happening, right? So it's like it's, you know, being in the right place at the right time sort of thing. And so much was happening. I lived in New York. So I grew up where soccer was beginning to germinate and stuff was happening.

And I made a lot of friends. That reminds me. So most of the people who've been in charge of soccer in America ever are from New York or New Jersey, it seems like. Well, for the longest time, the U.S. soccer headquarters were in the Empire State Building. Did you know that? I actually didn't know that, no. Okay, yeah. So the headquarters were in the Empire State Building.

And then they moved to Colorado Springs where there's Olympic training center was. And then finally, when Hank Stan Brasher became Secretary General, he was from, he arranged to buy that building in Chicago. Okay. I don't know. That's an interesting. I mean, we joke about it a lot. We've been joking about it a lot on our podcast lately because everybody involved in the latest scandal is from New Jersey. or New York, you know. And so it's a joke like, oh, New Jersey's just being New Jersey, you know.

But I do wonder, you know, on a serious note, if you think it would be good for American soccer to sort of spread out the authority, you know, have people from California in charge or. Well, I'm sure, you know, I don't know that that's not the case to tell you the truth. I mean, the way the U.S. soccer is divided into the adult, which is the amateur game, the youth and the pro. I mean, there's, I mean, I'm not, I've never been on the boards or most of my stuff has been on the field, so to speak. So I've never really been involved at that level. But I don't know that we're not spread out all over the country with representation. I mean, I don't know.

Yeah, I guess I don't for sure know either. I just think of the, you know, that the Bruce Arena coaching tree, you know, the ACC schools, they're sort of highly represented in the leadership in the federation. I feel like. Well, Bruce and Bob Bradley, you know, come from the Mani Shelshi school. Mani was one of the people in that first coaching school that I mentioned to you that Debt Mark Kramer did. Mani was one of the first ones to get an A.

And if Walter Chisowitz didn't get the position, when Debt Mark Kramer left, then Manny probably would have or should have. And so he's done a lot. You know, he has a lot of followers, and he's done a lot of good leadership ability. and some good coaches, and he developed good players. And yeah, just so happens.

He's from New Jersey. But that first coaching school was in Rhode Island, you know, where only people from the East Coast came to it. Right. Nobody knew what it was going to be. All right. Well, happy birthday. Enjoy the United Soccer Convention.

Yeah, I'm going to leaving on Wednesday. I have a big responsibility there. I'm kind of in charge of the Walt Chiswoods Fund, which is part of the foundation of United Soccer Coaches. And we are the leading fund where we are able to give scholarships to the convention and coaching school education to people. And this year we're honoring, like I think I told you, that Philadelphia Adams of 73 and and Ralph Lundy, who was a 46-year college coach.

Cool. It's a big thing. We do it like one of the last events of the convention. Okay. All right. Thanks everybody for listening. We'll see you.