Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - $447: Emma Hayes to take over USWNT (reportedly)

Episode Date: November 6, 2023

Greg, Vince, Tara and Belz talk through the surprise of the weekend, first reported by Joe Lowery at Backheeled, that Chelsea manager and arguably the best coach in women's soccer Emma Hayes has agreed to terms with the USSF to coach the women's national team. We talk about her background, her ideas about American soccer development, the ways she is likely to manage the WNT and the as yet unclear transition for her from Chelsea to USA.https://twitter.com/Backheeled Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon! Patrons get a private feed for the Monday Review, which is, among other things, a run-down of club action for national team players every week with Watke and Vince. We have recently added patron-only content that’s available every Friday. Patrons also get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffed Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Scuff podcast, where we talk about U.S. soccer. Hey, welcome to a special edition of Scuffed. It is the Emma Hayes episode. She's going to be hired as the U.S. Women's National Team coach, Tara. What do you think of that? I couldn't be more excited. I couldn't be more intrigued. I feel like Christmas morning.

I'm so excited. I should introduce everybody here. Greg, Tara, and Vince. Greg, how do you feel about it? I am pretty stoked. It was a real shrewd move once again by our U.S. soccer front office, J.T., Cindy Parlo Cohn, to leak a list of somewhat underwhelming finalists, and then to drop the bombshell, the Joe Lowry bombshell that we snagged MAAs.

I mean, that is about the most efficient roller coaster you can. have for a hire like this. Yeah, it's interesting. She wasn't one of the three finalists reported by the athletic last week, I guess it was, and we talked about this on what so Wednesday. And we weren't really that excited about the three candidates, right? But here we are. She's widely regarded as the best coach in women's soccer.

Is that fair to say? She wasn't even on my short list, my dream shortlist, because I didn't believe it could happen. I'm with Tara, though. like, you know, when you're imagining the shortlist, I think a lot of us tended to default to players who were sort of more, more, or coaches, I'm sorry, who were sort of within the U.S. universe already. So when you hear Gustafson or you hear Laura Harvey, like those make sense. Any coach from NWSL, that would kind of make sense. Like, Hayes, Serena, like they kind of exist outside of the shortlist universe, I feel like. So it's such a. coup to just pull that off. And obviously, it's such a coup that we're, you know, we're sort of already making exceptions to how she's going to take over the role. Yeah.

So it was kind of surreal the way it played out, right? Because like, Saturday morning, I wake up. I see me official starting. I'm already up a little early anyway. So I'm like, all right, I'm going to go watch this match. And then, you know, watch Chelsea absolutely pound. Assymela in the submission, just wave after wave after wave of attack. And I don't know, like, like Tara said, this wasn't, until it was announced, this wasn't

a possibility that was possible. But, you know, just happening to watch that match and then four days to be announced, it was tremendous. The vibes were, I haven't been this excited for something in a long time. I'll tell you that. I'll tell you that much. And like, I know we've talked about the disappointing list that the athletic put out of the three names. And I think that list helps make the Emma Hayes news even greater because it's a coach that a lot of our players deserve.

Like, we're taking a big chance. We're going for it all instead of being a little complacent in some of the coaches that maybe we already had related. relationships with or maybe we already were a little bit comfortable with. I just, I'm so excited to see U.S. soccer putting in the work and really ponying up for the big guy, the big, the big woman. But yeah, I just, I think it's brave. I think it's cool. I can't wait. Yeah, it's going to be a while, I guess, since we get all that sorted out, like who's going to be coaching in the early part of next year and what exactly the transition from coaching Chelsea to coaching the U.S. women's national team will be like for Hayes.

But maybe we should get a little bit into her background. I pulled a couple clips from her interview with Julie Fowdy last spring. And I'm going to play one of those. It's one that kind of shows that she's got that dog in her. This is what she says about preparing for next season, even while the current season. season is going on. And that is, I think finding those margins is something I've always prided myself on. I don't stand still with it.

I don't sit there and, like I've had a lunch meeting today. It's all about planning for next season, even though we've got a huge game on Saturday. What I've learned is that you've got to be, you've got to be one step ahead all of the time. And the minute I get too relaxed or too complacent, all I remind myself, was how it feels to lose and I hate it. I hate losing. Hates losing. That's good. She wrote a manifesto

kind of on the U.S. Women's National Team a little more than three months ago too. I don't know if it's too early to get into that, but it said a lot of interesting stuff in there. The most interesting to me and I'm paraphrasing, but she talked a little bit near the end of it

on how our team is lacking creative attacking players. And it's true. But it really made me like nearly chuckle, I guess, because what she said about Katerina McArio, when Kat came over to Chelsea from Leone for free, her contract was up. It was a huge gift for Chelsea. Emma Hay said Katarina Macario is one of the best, most creative attackers in the world.

The stars are aligning. Emma is putting the pieces together to bring Kat back home to us. And it just is all making almost too much sense. I'm a little worried about it now. So Tara, I thought you would be most excited about her poo-pooing our college system. where she is like college smallage you know what I'm saying we need to get our players playing some ball out here get these girls out of here I'm playing on a club team uh Greg I'm not trying to downplay club teams but but but I think in and in uh haze's mind that there isn't much

difference between a unc varsity team and the and their club soccer team in her eyes it seems it seems from a developmental perspective at least yeah I mean I I love the whole thing I think it's a must read for anyone interested in getting to know our new coach a little bit more. I'm talking college club, not professional club. I just realize that can be confused. Like so much what she's saying is just like, I mean, for me, it's just like coaching catnip. When she's talking about like spending hours and hours constantly trying to find the margins,

you know, trying to find every edge you can, that is just, that's, it's all the right things that I love to hear. And then the key is, lots of coaches can say that. We have a ton of evidence that she can implement this, right? She can do it effectively and install it, at least at the club level. She can do it. So she backs it up. Like, she finds edges from game to game where the approach and game and this game against

another powerhouse is different than the plan against this other powerhouse. She's going to play later. And for me, that's just, it's huge to have that sort of track record. Again, there's no such thing as a home run in coaching outcomes when you hire a coach. It's spoken like a true coach. I have to feel so much better about the likelihood that we are going to get some actual coherent, focused plans in place for our team to execute than what we have been watching for the past cycle. Yeah. And so that's what this manifesto, uh, really like laid out for me like, okay, here's a person that's clear-eyed and what she sees, what she perceives as being,

uh, the issues and the, uh, you know, uh, what's the opposite of issues. She's got the remedies. She's got all these remedies. Yeah, for, for our program here. And just listening to talking to other places too. This is somebody like just already. without having known too much about Emma Hayes prior to this appointment. And I don't say this lightly. She seems like a brilliant person. She seems like a brilliant person. Like I do not call people that if they haven't earned it.

But that's how much I've been taken aback by just her as a person doing this deep dive in these 48 hours or whatever ever since the appointment has been leaked. Yeah, I was in a work meeting this morning and I shared my screen. You know, like, oh, here, let me show my screen real quick. We'll look at it together. And I have like eight tabs open all on the history of Emma Hayes. You know, her dad, her children, her like past career highlights. And it's been a joy to even scratch the surface on what she's, she has done and even just think about, um, the possibilities of, of her coming either in

international windows or in May when Chelsea's officially up. It's just, it's exciting. She has swagger. I've noticed like in her interviews and stuff. She's got like, uh, she's got gravitas to her, like in a down to earth kind of way. Appreciate that about her. And that's not nothing either because she's again, she's going to be in a position where she's going to have to tell a lot of, you know, multi-time world champions that their time is up. And she's going to have to say that in a way that doesn't destroy the chemistry of everyone else who's still there. And again, for me, I just feel like there is no doubt in my mind that she will be able to do that and we will come out the other side.

I hope they have a video crew in there when she goes. That's something that's something that, um, Like all of the stories I've been reading or even listening to in different podcasts, that's one of the more consistent themes is that this is the person who's up for the job of managing big personalities and transferring players out and transferring players in. Like, this is something where she has the stomach for it compared to our previous coach who very clearly did not. Yeah. We got a real page turner here, ladies and gentlemen. Real pace turner. You mentioned it, Tara, but her dad, just on her background,

her dad was a ticket tout, which is a scalper, right? He was a scalper in London and started like sort of some kind of business around scalping. And I think she said in one article, to call him an entrepreneur would be generous, I guess. Like he was just a regular dude. But he was a pioneer of women's soccer in London. And definitely passed down his love of the game to her. Her playing career ended when she was in her late teens because of a skiing accident.

But apparently she was already interested in coaching because her dad, who actually died in September at the age of 82, called her from the Atlanta Olympics, where the first Olympic women's soccer competition was held and told her she had to go to America. because, quote, this is where it's at. I think he was referring specifically to women's soccer, you know? He might have been referring to a young Vince, because I was also at that Olympics. I was at the Atlanta Olympics. So he might have seen me in all my glory and been like, hey, Emma, you got to,

you got to make this man happy in 30 years, 26 or something. I'm not trying to age myself. And she did go five years later. She moved to the United States in her mid-20s. I want to play a very short clip from an interview she did with Chris Whittingham that sort of encapsulates it all. Well, I was born in England, but I was definitely made in America. That I'm certain of. Definitely made in America.

Tara, can you kind of walk us through what, like she didn't immediately jump into a, you know, a prestigious soccer job in 2001. What did she do? No, the first coaching position she had was at Long Island Lady Riders in 2001. And then from 2003 to 2006, she worked at Iona College. Anyone know if I'm saying that correctly? Yeah, you are. Okay. And then from 2006 to 2008, she was an assistant at Arsenal.

So back across the pond. Yeah. She moved, she's moved back over. And then in 2008, she heads across the Atlantic once again. It was her first head coaching role with Chicago Red Stars from 2008 to 2011, I believe. And, you know, little fun fact. That was Megan Rapino's first professional coach was Emma Hayes, which I thought was interesting. Yeah, she was excited to be part of a new league, I think, is what she said in.

said about it because clearly the path forward was there in England, but she wanted to come over and be part of something new. And then what, Tara? After Chicago, which she references as her lowest professional moment, she considered Chicago like a failure. She stuck around. She did get fired there, just to be clear, yeah. Yeah, she stuck around the United States for a little bit

and consulted on different clubs. But she moved to Chelsea in 2012, where she, up until Saturday, where she's won six WSL titles, five FA Cups, two league cups. She was named the WSL manager of the season, six different times.

She was the league managers association manager of the year five times. And FIFA awarded her best football coach. in 2021. Yeah, she's, she's the best in England, at least. She's decorated. I mean, that's quite, that's quite the resume. It is. For sure.

It is. I mean, she's had the, she's had the entire WSL, like, just by the scruff of the neck. These past, what, five, six years where she's really, really gotten Chelsea, like, you know, going. Because, because, because, because, remember, you know, 2012, in England, you know, it wasn't, I mean, it was a tumultuous time for women's soccer everywhere. But, you know, with England winning the euros and everything, you know, we've seen the stories that have come out about the hurdles that the English women have had to face just, as far as professional environments, as far as just growing up trying to play soccer,

just as a young woman and all the different type of stuff. and the WSO wasn't where they are now in 2012, that's for sure. And Chelsea definitely wasn't. So she was the sole architect. I mean, of course, there's people with her. But yeah, the sole architect was turning Chelsea into what Chelsea became. She said, she was quoted saying when she took the job at Chelsea, they didn't have a practice facility. They didn't have a building.

They didn't have a desk. They didn't have a bag of balls. I mean, that's kind of hard to believe that they didn't even have a bag of balls, but hey. Bells, when was that interview with Whittingham? Like, was that recently just because that quote is just so outstanding that she was made in America? That sounds like something she would have said in her press conference being announced as a U.S. coach. It's sort of a same thing as the soccer capital of the world kind of thing, just playing to the crowd. But, like, it's amazing that that just already exists in her archives.

I believe it was 2021, so semi-recently, but, you know, not a couple weeks. Do we think she knew? Do we think she knew one day she was going to take this job? I mean, the whole thing is she recruited Kat. She got Mia in. She has a relationship with Crystal Dunn, one of the only veterans still playing high-calibre soccer week and week out. Maybe she's been playing chess this whole time.

I think so. I think she brought over Sam Kerr in an effort to prepare herself to coach Sophia Smith. I think that's that in my mind is what she was already doing. She was like, in six years, I'm going to be coaching Sophia Smith. I need someone who's going to be like her now. Give me Sam Kerr. It's going to be so fun when she does everything exactly like we want her to. That's cool.

I was laughing. Because while we're singing songs about her, I'm totally like, It's going to, somehow it's just all going to blow up. We're going to crash out of the group stage of the Olympics. So, see the Smith won't make the roster. But, like, I am picturing when she, when she wrote this thing that we're calling the manifesto, which was an article in the telegraph, but I just picture, like, you know, a email popping up in the, in the Mac Crocker's inbox.

It's all of a sudden, like, hey, man, make sure you see this. and it's like, you know, just a little Emma Hayes, cheap, like, Gmail burner account that she sent, and, you know, he's been plotting this all alone. So the interview with Whittingham was in 2020, I guess. Not that that makes any difference for what we're saying here. But, yeah, I mean, should we talk a little bit more about these, what she says in this, what we keep calling the manifesto?

I mean, I think we're doing a little bit, we're giving it a little bit of extra credit, there for being a manifesto. It's, it's an op-ed that tries to explain why the U.S. failed to get passed around a 16. And with her newly acquired position, do you not think that she would take it upon herself to rectify all of these issues that she pointed out

in this article, op-ed, excuse me, Bell, that she wrote? Yes, no, I agree with that. But as Tara pointed out, she says in the article, I think America are massively short of creative talent. When you're playing against more well-organized teams, better coach teams, you have to break them down. And that breaking down teams is a combination of strategy, tactics, and personnel. And I don't see that they've got the personnel to do that. Now.

On the current team. So you could say, but she also goes on, it's not just about this group of players, though. It is the whole structure. The realities are it is going to be very, very difficult for the U.S. to climb back to the top. I'm not saying they won't with hard work and the right conversations around their model. They will have to respond to this World Cup. Maybe that response would have been greater had they been knocked out in the group stages. Sometimes you have to fail to then see change for the better.

Tara rightly pointed out that just a few months before this, she had, or more than a few months, I guess we're talking years at this point, she had brought in Katerina McCarillo and saying her praises as one of the most creative attackers in the world. So, I mean, how do you square those two things? I don't know. Here's what I'll say. Here's what I'll say. A week ago, Emma Hayes was not one of the finalists. and then Jaden Shaw played 45 minutes of soccer

and now Emma Hayes is coaching the women's national team. I'm not saying that Jaden Shaw's 45 minutes is what tipped the scale and had Emma Hayes actually get on the phone and say, look, I'm here. We're going to do this. But that's probably what happened. Yeah, a little cheeky Walsaw Wednesday listener. You know what I'm saying?

So I'll take it. But sincerely, like even last night, Olivia Moultrie and. Sam Coffey had a hell of a game in the semifinal. We sent a bunch of high schoolers to the Pan America games, and they got bronze against senior teams. Nobody, including Emma Hayes' op-ed, is saying we don't have large problems. But clearly she thinks she's the woman for the job.

She's coming over. Yep. She's going to have the right conversations around our model. Go ahead. Exactly. Sorry. Well, I'll say this too. like I don't think Emma Hayes is going to come in and get up like we're not going to suddenly start playing like Spain play.

We're not going to play like we saw Japan and how they're capable of playing. Like that's not what M. Hayes is going to come in and do where we're suddenly this very intricate team because I do think that's where she's saying they don't have the players for it. Like we don't necessarily have the players to just do that or at least have that be our best most pragmatic, effective way of playing. what I'm confident in is that Emma Hayes has good ideas for what will be pragmatic and effective for the U.S. And that will see us unleash some of those, some of those styles of play. I want to get more into the style of play, Greg, because you've been in the tape, right? You've been watching a lot of Chelsea.

But let me read one more quote and ask a question off of it. One more quote from the op-ed. She said there's still a huge, she actually spends a lot of the op-ed on this topic. but let me just read one quote. There's still a huge amount of talent in this U.S. team, but with so many of the squad playing solely in the NWSL, it doesn't offer enough diversity to their squad in terms of playing against different styles.

Here in Europe where you're playing in different competitions, Champions League or Cups, players aren't going to be phased by other things because they come up against different football, week in, week out. I'd say half the op-ed was her saying that everybody playing in NWSL is not a good thing for the women's national team.

Is she going to inspire a clinch? been like Exodus to Europe. It's possible. She's going to tell Sophia, you got to go. You got to go, girl. Remades to be seen in it. I mean, at the very least, the new structure of the bargaining agreement doesn't actively discourage it the way it had in the past, right?

So I think it wouldn't surprise me at all if we see more players going on that sort of European adventure, taking like a couple years and be like, all right, because there are super clubs, right? You can go play for a super club and not, you're not in the backwater. You're not playing like, you're not playing like pickup soccer. Like you're going to go play some really high level soccer with really high level teammates around you. And you probably, I'm sure you will grow.

I'm sure players would grow from doing that. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if we see some of that. I don't think it's going to be some kind of like directive where players who are playing in NWSL will miss out because of that. But I kind of hope so. just because again, it'd be, I don't mean, I hope they miss out. I'm saying I hope we see that happen. I hope we see players just go play where it's not just like Corbin Albert and the gals at Chelsea.

Like we can just pick up any European game. Like, oh, we got a couple of players here that we can watch them play in these sort of curious competitions that we're not as acquainted with on the women's side. Yeah. People are real quick, people are already clamoring for a women's playbill. Greg. I know. I know we're getting there, right? We got the kid at Iax now starting every game.

Like, we got to start tracking more than just Leon, PSG, and Chelsea. Right. Sorry, Tara, go ahead. No, no. I just wanted to say, I'm buying into Emma Hayes shaking things up. So if that means sending more players overseas, then I'm in. I do think NWSO is growing. And I do think that there is going to be more diversity in playing styles as we continue to grow.

But if she's coming in to shake things up, I want it across the board. I'm all in. So you don't think she's going to come in and make us play like Spain or Japan immediately or maybe even ever. What have you learned about how her teams play from watching some Chelsea? Yeah, I'm going to say literally zero chance. She's not going to come in and be like, oh, what this team needs to do is start playing the most intricate triangles possible. I think there's no way that's going to happen. What we'll see again is just like a variety of things.

What we're used to is just this incredibly muddled, like totally incoherent way of playing where not only can we not predict what's going to happen, but the players on the field can't predict where their teammates are going to be or what the next half of a pass is even going to be. And I think what we're going to see is a lot more sort of like structured decision making that won't necessarily be the prettiest soccer you've ever seen. But I think we'll be like what I have in my head is going to be some kind of a ruthlessly effective way of playing. That really puts a lot of emphasis on Sophia Smith, to be honest. I know we kind of beat that horse to death about like we aren't using Sophia very well. But when you watch what she does with Sam Kerr and how much she leans on her and how much she gets out of Sam Kerr and how much the entire. entire team can benefit from a player playing like that.

I just think we're going to see so many different ways of utilizing Smith, so many different styles that take advantage of her, whether that's playing direct. All right, we've won the ball. We know immediately we're just going to hit the ball between Sophia Smith and the sideline before the defense can regroup, and she will go win it. And while she's winning it, we will advance as a unit upfield.

Stuff that we just never got from Blockco, because everything was so like both deliberate and confused, if that makes sense. From what I've seen in a much more vague sense is that there is always a plan B. Like there's flexibility if things aren't going right. There's flexibility if players are out or if somebody's on an injury. They're not always playing the same way back to back to back. which I'm incredibly excited about because we have so many different types of attackers. We could potentially see a future where we utilize all of them instead of just the same one or two over and over again.

Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely not going to be like a one-trick pony where she's just going to say, we've got Sophia. This is all we got. I mean, I'm just thinking about the different ways she can use her. and then who the other attacking talents we have on the field are, and how much I think the game will open up for them in ways that from watching us play all the way through New Zealand, we just didn't open up the game for anybody. Like nobody was like, oh, this player gets to thrive in this system. Like nobody was eating anything for two and a half years. And I just feel like we're going to everyone's, I feel like, going to be on a pretty steady diet going forward.

That's my real optimism here. Um, so do we have our, uh, or so it's maybe our wish list or who practically just from what y'all know about Emma, who will not be eating? Who will have their, who will have their plates removed, uh, from, from within their reach and be firmly planted, uh, on the bench or, you know, just out of the team altogether. Is now the time to do this? Yeah, let's do it. We're celebrating and then Vince is like, All right, but now it's funeral time.

I'm just asking the question. He said everybody's going to be eating, but not everybody that was on that field in Australia slash New Zealand, you know. So what's interesting about this for me is I genuinely don't know, right? We had so many players that we've watched and we were all like so underwhelmed by, but so much of that is also intertwined with Blotko's general underwhelmingness of the team and how poorly that they were set up and how poorly, like, drawn out the ideas were when we had the ball. So for me, it's, like, impossible to know how a better coach will assess those players and might say,

oh, I can get a lot of use out of her in this role that we just weren't seeing. So I really don't know. Like, you know, Alex Morgan, we were kind of deprived of seeing Alex Morgan's phase of her career, where she got to be the legacy striker who comes in for 10 minutes. at the end of a World Cup game and you're just like, oh, man, we're bringing on Alex Morgan for 10 minutes. That could have been a role that she would have thrived in and might still thrive as much as everyone's like, no, come on, what are you talking about? Get rid of Alex Morgan. But, like, if Emma sees it, basically if Emma sees it, I'll be ready to see it, is how I'm saying.

Okay. Okay. That was a hell of an answer there, Greg. It's a hell of a non-answer. Very interesting. Who are your top candidates for having their meal card confiscation? I'm not going to answer either. Let's talk about the people then.

Let's put it in a vague. The people will say the people will probably want to see some of the people who want to see like Morgan transitioned out. We'll want to see maybe Andy Sullivan have less of a role with a less of a sort of nailed on role with the team. Maybe Emily Sonnet's midfield career is coming to a close. Like, what? Am I close with those?

Those are the three that come to mind for me. Yeah, those are probably the three. I've been talking to some people and me just, even off just watching the Chelsea game on Saturday and then thinking about it after the announcement was made or whatever. Like, I was, I'm thinking Emma's going to have a plan for Lindsay Horan. I do believe that that will be the case. I'm not sure it's going to be in the midfield, though, because everybody I talked to, The Chelsea fans that I know that I've talked to are saying that, like, her first priority is going to be to fix the midfield.

But whatever issues we have in that. So I guess we'll be able to tell quite early whether or not she views Lindsay as being able to function within that midfield or not. But I do think she might have a plan. Like, you know, I've said it before. Maybe Lindsay and like a little two striker set up, that'd be nice for me. but I do think that she'll be able to find a way to get the good attributes from Lindsay out and while covering the bat. So we're talking like we're going to do like a 442 circa 1995.

Womp it up to Horan, have her flick it on for Sophia. I love it. Let's go. Hold on, Tara's not off the hook here. She's got to give her players who are getting our weekend passes revoked. Yeah, I mean, I've not shied away from it. I think our midfield needs completely reworked. And I think Alex should have been gone a while ago.

Yeah. Full stop. We'll see, though. Yeah, it'll be fascinating to see what those first lineups are going to be under her. I also think the December camp, You guys know as we talk biweekly. I was running out of patience in October with Twyla and with the whole thing. December camp, I've gained a little bit more grace now.

You know, she'll have to come in and figure some things out or if she doesn't even come in and it's her assistant coming in. Like December figuring things out or lack of... super direct action is, at least for this, at least for right now, is okay to me because she needs more than, you know, a weekend when Chelsea isn't playing to make some bold decisions. She's still a woman working two jobs right now. So I think she now has a little bit more room than just December, but not too much room because we have Gold Cup coming up. But I don't think there's any question that we're going to see the boldness in December. Like,

I don't think she's going to take this job and just be like, because I'm still at Chelsea, I'm going to have a time killing camp where I basically just bring in the get the entire New Zealand band back together. Like, I feel like there's no way. Like she's got to have, you know, have done some assessments. I don't know that, again, I don't know what her assessments would be whether she thinks she needs to see some of these veterans to see what they've got, you know, because they've got. Or if she's just like, nope, here's, here's my midfield. And I've got these five players coming and we're going straight at it. but I don't know that anyone's going to break through Emma Hayes' roster just by inertia,

because they've been around for a while. I kind of hope, I really hope not. Oh, I really hope not. Yeah, I hope not either. So, I mean, if anything, we might get some, you know, some Chelsea Blue favoritism. You know, man, maybe me officials just written in ink as soon as we get to December. Who knows? Why does she need to finish out the season at Chelsea?

It's just contractual, like a contractual thing? She's already won six titles there. Like, what does she need to do with Chelsea? I also read because she's not breaking her contract. The U.S. soccer's not paying anything to Chelsea. So like all this record-breaking money that we're offering to Emma, it's going to all to Emma and not anything to get her out of a contract. I mean, I guess.

I guess. But, but, but, but, you know what? Let me, let me take this, uh, opportunity here just to bring up, just to bring up, uh, you know, Greg gave him a shout out earlier. Batson, CPC, Crocker, you know what I'm saying? I told you, I told you all, I told you all these were serious figures. I told you all these were serious figures. And, uh, look at us.

Look at us. They're doing, doing, doing everything that you could have wanted, uh, that, the stewards of this women's national team to do. You know, we went, we went out and got the best. It couldn't be more serious. And I remember reading like the hiccup with Tony was he didn't want to move to America. And now that we got Emma, she just gets to stay in London until May. It's different playing fields.

But also, you know, Emma is... Well, I was born in England, but I was definitely made in America. That's certain of. Yeah. I love it. It's like a Chevy commercial. So here's the thing. You talked about how, you know, she...

One of the clips you played, Bells was like, they've got a big game coming up in their season, and she's already focused on the issues that they're going to have next season. So in my mind, like, this is a coach who has no problem compartmentalizing to be, like, okay, I have to make, I have to make, get this result this time, but I also have a chunk of time here that I'm going to devote to something that's not the next game coming up for the team I'm coaching. So I think, I think she's going to be able to do it. I think, well, it's, it's always hard for us to say this as a national team focused podcast. Like, coaching national teams is a part-time job. Like, it's, it's very much, you don't, you know, you've got these

two games coming up a month away. you've got some flexibility on when you're going to, you know, dictate your ideas and when you're going to communicate those ideas to your staff and then how they're going to get communicated to players. Like there's some, there's some downtime here that she can, she can sort of just squeeze the actual coaching needed into the window she has available while she's, while she's working at Chelsea. Because the other thing to remember is, uh, not every game that those European super clubs are playing are going to be competitive matches.

Right. No. Right. They got a lot of weeks off where they still play a game. I do think it's going to be a lot easier for her if these rumors or speculation about her assistant coach being on the ground soon are true. That is kind of the way we're getting around her staying at Chelsea. is Denise Reddy, who Emma describes as her drill sergeant, will be on the ground in the meantime until May,

is what other outlets are speculating or semi-reporting on. And Denise was born and made in the USA. Allegedly, it's what I'm hearing. She's from Jersey. We had to keep our Jersey affiliation. Somehow, some way. You know what I'm saying? it's going to permeate.

You know what I'm saying? You just can't keep them down. Can I keep them down? But, uh, well, so like I said, just as far as, like, being very impressed by Emma the person, uh, if, and, and, you know, Denise was listened to her interview with, uh, Julie Fowdy. Like, Denise was with her, like, I'm pretty sure she was on her staff with, like, the Long Island Island lady riders. Denise wasn't on Emma's staff for that long, but they have that long, long history for sure.

Yeah, yeah. So I'll take that. If I got somebody that's been my road dog for this long, and, you know, like I said, we're making this concession, but it's for the very best of the best as far as, you know, I mean, you couldn't wish for anybody better. So, well, I'll, I'll take it. I'll take it. And, you know, we got, we got things, you know, FaceTime, all different types of technology to, because, you know, these are going to happen during international breaks, right? Like, It's not like Emma's going to be actually doing too much other than like a daily training or whatever. So I'm with it. And the players, our players were notified on Saturday of Emma's candidacy, I guess, of being brought up to the board and the board voted on Saturday. Everything's lining up. We're going to get an announcement any day now. It's exciting. Yeah.

And just thinking about the December. camp and like, again, we're already talking about is she going to be able to implement her ideas already in December, but just think about what the players must be experiencing as far as like stakes now. Like even if this camp is, is just almost like purely a tryout, uh, think of all of the players now who are going to feel like I can't just, I'm not just written in to this team anymore. Like, I've got to, I've got to like show something here. I've got a brand new set of eyes. like the incredibly discriminating eyes of one of the best coaches in the world who sees stars all the time. She's not going to be like, oh, I've never seen a player this good.

Like she's going to these players, I think, in December, I think they're going to be, they're going to have to be on it. No, I was thinking about that last night watching the semifinals. Like Portland Thorns lost, which was, you know, a loss is never good. But Sam Coffey had a hell of a game. And I was just thinking about her, she's been turned down and turned down by Vladcoe, and she's got this new opportunity, and she played like it. She really did.

I love to see it. Should we talk about the, the pay thing? Because the, so it's, I guess it was, the only thing I saw was Stephen Goff reported that equal pay with Burrhalter could arise. based on reporting, right? Or is that just... I've seen it be labeled as a record-breaking offer. It could be making her the highest paid women's soccer coach in the world. And what the board was deciding on on Saturday was if it's equal to Berthalter, is how I was reading it.

So nothing that says it is equal to, but that it's going to be quite large. I hope it is. Good for her. It's fantastic. That's fantastic. Like this is, again, another, this is another thing that U.S. soccer can do to establish the new baseline, like set the market for women's coaches and say, you know, this, just because, like, she was making this much at Chelsea doesn't mean that we're going to try

to get her for that or just barely over there. Like, we're going to get her for what we think paying a coach is worth. And this is where our line is. Do you think that's the reason they're doing it? I hope so. I mean, it'd be too unlikely, right? If they exactly match Burrhalter's salary, I feel like that'd be too unlikely to just be like, oh, that's where the number had to be to get Emma on board.

Right? Like, I feel like that'd be a clear message that they'd be sending that. That they're resetting the market. I think, but I think the, you know, I'm not saying, I think it'd, I think it'd be great. But I think the reason, I mean, the more cynical way to look at it is U.S. soccer is going to pay her the same amount that they're paying Burrhalter so they can avoid another lawsuit, you know, like, so they can avoid charges of sexism, which they are still, you know, smarting from.

Well, even if that's the reason, frame it, frame it as the positive side, and it's a good outcome in my mind. Which is what they'll do. Which is what they'll do. Yeah. Yeah. And it won't be a secret, right? Like, these salaries are become public. Every March.

We get a 990 that tells us how much the top six or seven people at U.S. soccer paid. So like you're saying, Bell, it could totally be cynical because U.S. soccer knows that number is going to be on record. So it's like, all right, well, what's it worth to us to have to try to explain why the best women's coach in the world? He's making $433,000 a year. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. But also, with everything being said, if we sign Laura Harvey, she's not making, you know, I'm saying. She's not making 2-mill or whatever. That's all I'm saying. So, you know,

we had to stick that offer out there and, you know, so maybe they didn't even, they didn't even expect a bite because, you know, we're going through all this stuff with like, is she going to coach the rest of the season and all that? But it's like, I mean, the season just started, like, and the World Cup, our World Cup ended before the season, before that. You know what I'm saying? So we could have had Emma in here earlier. theoretically you know but um it's like like it does make me wonder how all this actually actually went down and you second guessing here Vince he's second guessing JT yeah you're giving JT a little bit of a reprimand I'm not I'm not reprimand I don't care about this uh delayed start thing for real I'm just

saying like uh like like I do wonder if they actually like expected her to bite on the offer that they gave or not. Or if this was just like we might as well do it. Can't hurt. You can't hurt to ask. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't hurt to ask type thing. My mommy said all the time. You have not because you ask not. And, you know, JT, you know.

So the gentleman, he probably heard that itself. I don't know. I mean, they called, they called Moreno for the men's side, right? Give him a call. So you see if he'll at least take your call. He didn't take the call, but we asked. I forgot to play this clip, but I do want to play it. It's about Emma when she was deciding whether to go to Chicago or St.

I think there was a possibility in St. Louis at the time. This would be around 2008 when she took the Red Star's job. She went and saw a clairvoyant. And she asked her what she should do. And here's her explaining what the clairvoyant said. And I sat there and I said, listen, I've got a choice to them. make. I stay at Arsenal, stay as the manager there. I've got the opportunity to go and be the manager at St. Louis or the Chicago Red Stars. That's my choices. And she said to me,

oh, don't go to Chicago. That will be an absolute nightmare. I said, what do you mean? I, you know, she said, no, don't do that. Well, then, of course, she did do that and she did get fire. But I thought it was interesting how Chicago used to be sort of shorthand for U.S. soccer until they decided to move their headquarters to Atlanta. But anyway,

maybe it's not that interesting. And then we didn't agree to the job until we announced to move to Atlanta. Right. Right. Where the Olympics were that convinced her that she needed to go to. Everything's fitting together. And then she saw,

I saw Jaden Shaw play a little bit of soccer and said, All right. Yeah. All right. This is where it's it. They got something over here. There's no reason she should have known who Jaden Shaw was, you know, but when she penned this op-ed for the telegraph.

Like, she probably hadn't seen her play yet. Is that realistic? Would she have seen, would she be, like, closely watching San Diego Wave games? Or even... She has spoken very highly of Naomi Germa in the past. I know that. So maybe, I mean, maybe she's only seen Germa with the United States, but I'm sure, I'm sure she's familiar. Okay.

With a lot of our up-and-comers. I think Germot will be on the roster in December. I think, I don't think Germos going to get a lose out in this trend in this coaching transition. I don't think her, her, uh, plate is being revoked. Mm-mm. Oh, uh, one says one more thing that I found interesting in that, uh, Fouty interview was just, her talking about, you know, talked about how she's always looking for an edge.

One of those edges that I think she has found that she was talking about quite a bit in that interview was just, I guess, the intersection of sports performance and the menstrual cycle, which was quite interesting to me. It seems like if Chelsea, they've done extensive research, a lot of science onto how the body performs in different steps of the cycle and all that type of stuff. It was quite interesting, quite interesting. I don't know what we're doing here in America as far as, as far as all these types of things, the U.S. soccer and everything, but I don't know.

Well, I think didn't Chelsea poach our sports scientist from the U.S.? So Don Scott started a lot of the menstrual cycle studies, and she was with the United States in 2019, I believe. She went back to Europe for a little bit, and Dawn Scott's now at Washington Spirit. So we have been in the world of, like, female health and everything like that. But similar to how you felt,

I was interested in her speaking about it and speaking about rehabbing injuries and everything, because it gave me a lot of confidence knowing that Kat, is with Emma right now from how she spoke about how ACL recoveries are much different in women than they are in men. And it just made it just made it feel like not only are we in good hands, but so is Kat, which is going to make our team even better. Yeah, yeah.

She was talking about like the lack of testosterone, obviously, in women, which causes, which makes it harder to build muscle. and women. And of course, if you ever had your, anything immobilized on your body when you have an injury, you know, you lose muscle quite rapidly. So, uh, yeah. I'm just... Yeah, or even just speaking about women's soccer and women's sports as something other than smaller men or, you know, less, less muscular men. It was fascinating. It really was. Hmm. Well, games are what? The second and the fifth of December? like that first week of December?

Yeah, so we should have a roster around Thanksgiving, if not sooner. Another reason to give thanks. They're in Florida and Dallas for anyone who's making those plans. Florida for the game December 2nd, Dallas for December 5th. Anything else you guys want to bring up? Greg, I thought you had something else. I mean, just, you know, when we talk about one of the best women's managers of all time, or the best women's manager in the world that we've managed to secure.

for our national team. It does, it does sort of just, for me, always bring to mind how head coach hiring across sports, almost all sports,

but soccer, particularly for us, remains like one of the most transparently sexist practices that doesn't get talked about that much. You know, there will be a lot of women's teams that say,

well, we'd prefer to hire women, women to be our coach. But eventually, you know, they'll hire someone in its 50, 50, whatever it is. Like, there are a lot of men coaching women's teams where on the flip

side, you know, it's never stated, well, when a men's team has an opening for their head coach, it's never stated, well, we prefer to have a man coach, but we'll just, you know, make our decision. It is just a non-starter. And you know it's a non-starter because there's not a single woman coaching any men's teams at the top level or even the second levels or the third levels or the NCAA. I mean, I think there's one in Division three, one woman coaching a men's team because it's a big deal that she's the one who's doing it. USL, like, it just doesn't matter what level you're at. It's a non-starter.

I was wondering, like, how many boys U-15 teams are coached by women? Probably not very many. Right. It's so obviously, like, not even something that is explored on the men's side. And you always hear with, you know, the handful of women's coaches who are recognized as the best in the world, like, they might even be able to coach a men's team as though that's some impossibility. But yeah, it just immediately comes to mind when we do land like the best women's coach available.

That there's no, there's no like Rooney rule for interviewing women candidates for men's teams despite the fact that there is not a single woman coaching a men's team at any high level in the world. Hey, yo, but with that being said, Greg, so I do fall with that. in the Robert Sarver view of thinking. If you know the quote I'm talking about, you know the quote I'm talking about. But I'm just going to paraphrase it for what we're talking about here. These women need a woman. And so this is what I strongly believe myself. Thank you.

Maybe Emma, you know, if she revives and fixes the U.S. women's national team, maybe she breaks the mold. Oh, I don't want her to. I wanted her to stay with the women's national. I wanted to stay with our national team for three straight World Cup trophies and a couple of Olympic golds. That'd be great, too. Tara, you good? It's such big news. I've been worthless since Saturday since I found out.

It's number one thing on my mind. I just, I can't believe it's happening. I'm good today, though. Yeah, we basically just sat for an hour, celebrate. celebrating together. So I appreciate y'all letting me celebrate with you. Well, one more thing, which Vince mentioned, but we haven't discussed. She did

say college small age in that op-ed. She didn't think the development system was doing as well as it could. And she said, like, at one time a good young English player might have gone to the U.S. to play college soccer, and that was like the best

possibility at the time. Well, let's say 2012. She said, that's changed. That's not That's not true anymore. And I wonder how you guys react to that before we sign off here. One of the most common things I say when I watch any of our youth teams, what comes to mind first is this U-19 group that we had at the Pan America Games is, God, I hope they don't go to college.

So I'm all on board. Okay. I'll just say it's just not a monolith. There are definitely some really old school college soccer teams that play the old school college soccer way, which is similar to what we just saw our senior women's team play in New Zealand, which is probably not where you want them, want them playing. Because again, there is just like a sophistication level that you don't have to abide by to be one of the best teams in college soccer because of, you know, the demanding the grueling schedule, the substitution rules, like, all these different things can kind of factor in to be like, you can play almost an entirely different sport and have some real success doing that in college, where to play at the highest levels outside of college,

like you just, you can't play that way. So you're kind of building these bad habits and ingraining them in players or not exposing them to the ways that you're going to need them to play later on in their formative years. So, yeah, it would definitely, you definitely have to be at the right kinds of college environments if you're going to and get that development that is going to help you later on that you don't have to

overcome as you graduate at it. I think another thing is that the U.S. women's national team pool is already sort of showing signs of not leaving the college pathway behind, but there's a shift away from it, at least, you know, Alyssa Thompson, Shadden Shaw. There was a time where Lindsay Horan was, I mean, she was the groundbreaker. She was the first player who did not go to college on our national. team and now it's it's becoming less big to not do that like we're like you said we're seeing it we're seeing it a bit more yeah and in the finance the financial incentives had to align for

that too because you know if you're if you're skipping college to take a a 40,000 a year salary with no in an unstable league that's just bad that's just bad business decision right but now it's like that's not what you're doing you're going to you're going to get paid if you're that good, if you're good enough to skip college, you're going to get paid to skip college. Yeah. Okay. Okay, I think that's it. Check us out on Patreon. The link is in the show notes. Thanks everybody for listening. We'll see you.