Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #456: Former pro referee & California refs administrator Juan Guzman

Episode Date: December 8, 2023

Juan Guzman reffed MLS matches, helped roll out video assistant refereeing in the league, and now is the state referee administrator for the California State Soccer Association-South, one of the nation's richest soccer regions. We talked about getting young people into reffing, why Juan did it, how ARs stay on the invisible off side line, how parents aren't as bad as they might appear in isolated social media videos and how referees prepare for pro games. Fun conversation.Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon! You get exclusive episodes one or two times a week, plus access to the Discord and live call-in shows, by signing up for as little as $2 a month: https://www.patreon.com/scuffed Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the SCuff podcast, where we talk about U.S. soccer. Our guest today is a former MLS referee, a VAR referee, and now the state referee administrator for the California State Soccer Association South, also known as Cal South, which, as we all know, is one of the hotbeds of soccer in America. Please welcome Juan Guzman. Juan, thanks for being here. Adam, thank you for having me. I'm very excited about the show.

I've seen a few of the shows prior, so I think you've... been a great job with a lot of the things that you're highlighting. So kudos to you and the whole program team there. Thanks, man. First of all, let's go way back. How did you get into refereeing in the first place? I was young. I was about 11 years old. My dad was a referee. There was a shortage, and it was a Hispanic men's league, and they only had finals. They only had three referees on the finals. And this 11-year-old kid said, hey, dad, I think I could do it. My dad, I think I could do it. My was upset because the other referee didn't show up and he kind of you know he he said he had some choice words get out of my way kind of a thing um but the other AR was like hey you don't have anybody

else might as well put this kid on there I did four games that day made 25 bucks a game I survived and the rest was history I saw you say somewhere that you part of your motivation for getting uh getting involved with refereing was to be closer to your dad uh can you talk a little bit more about that? I mean, obviously he was reffing that day. You joined him. But could you talk a little more about that? Yeah, I think the pride aspect when you're a

10, 11 year old kid, right, trying to make your dad proud, I think to me was the number one thing that whatever my dad was doing at that age, I wanted to do. So he refereed as long as I could remember, and I would be at the fields with him. It was a whole family thing. We'd be there like all day every weekend

since I could walk. So to me, it was an easy transition. Once I had a little bit more of a physique and a body, I wanted to be out there with him. And in the later years in life, it's actually something that's connected us through, he's still alive and he helps me actually sometimes being out there on the field with administrative stuff.

And it's just connected us. It could be Thanksgiving, Christmas, whatever it is, we're talking soccer. Awesome. So did you grow up in L.A.? Like in the L.A. area? Yeah, east of L.A. around that area, yeah. Okay.

Do you have any advice for kids interested in getting involved as referees now? Yeah, what do you tell them? Yeah, the advice is mostly to the parents. What I've seen as an administrator is, you know, especially kids that are shy, kids that are kind of introverts. when you go out there on the field, it gives you these life tools that you learn. And you wouldn't expect it, right? You would think that would be negative, but it's actually so positive. I've seen kids turned around from, you know, being negative at school and, you know, having trouble, you know, socially.

This really helps them become, well, get out of their shell and become people that are very productive in life. I mean, we had a mentor group growing up. I did in Southern California and all of the people that are in the mentor group, either if they didn't become professional referees or national referees, they really went out and did something in their own careers and pathways. And I think it started and some of those life lessons was from referee. I believe it. Yeah.

You got to be, even at the young ages, the referee has to be pretty assertive, you know, let everybody know what's going on. A thing that's been in the news a lot in the last few weeks. is the whole Matt Mioska incident. He allegedly went into the referee's room after a game to complain, and then he was banned essentially for the rest of the playoffs. So what is that indicative of? Is it just like somebody acting crazy in the moment,

and that's it, or is it like reflective of a larger problem in the game today? I think it's a lot of layers there. I think the first part is, I refereed with VAR the last few years of my career, but the rest of the years, there was no FAR. So you had to connect with players. You had to change their personality

or change their behaviors with your personality, right? You couldn't just what I see now, and I know I'm going to get a little bit of snuff from the younger referees that have only refereed with VAR, but it's not enough to, you know, there's a game-changing call or a match, we call it a match-critical incident, right? when it changes the game your decision does.

You know, it's not enough to just put your hand in your ear and say, I'm checking, I'm checking, instead of actually connecting with the player. Right. And I didn't see the full game, but I saw some highlights where there was some opportunities missed to connect with those players that were angry because of a call. And, you know, just putting your hand in your ear is not going to change anybody's behavior.

It's going to make it seem like, you know, you're dismissive. So to me, it's not right, but I could understand the frustration of players nowadays, especially in professional soccer, where, you know, the referees are relying more on the VAR than they would on their own, you know, angle of vision or, you know, or making the decision because that's what they saw at the moment. So this, this is, I think, a bigger issue where, you know, the referees that are that are coming up or younger or only referee with VAR. they really haven't ref without it.

And instead of it being a tool, now it's being something where they're just reliant on it. And that to me is the bigger issue here. Now, what Miyaga did there at the end, that's a restricted area. Should not go there. There's nothing constructive that you're going to go say, especially after you're upset from the game.

So there's a lot of safeguards in place. In my time in MLS, I saw it. There's security guards. there's referee liaisons, there's team liaisons, and all of these safeguards didn't do their job, in my opinion, for that player to reach that restricted area. When you say there were opportunities to connect with the players that were missed in the footage that you saw from the game, what are you thinking of there?

There's times where the referee needs to be strong with players, right, because there's not enough time to sit down. and have a conversation, especially some moments of the game. But there's some moments of the game, and I didn't see the full game, so I, you know, I apologize and not seeing the full game. But in just in the highlights that I saw, you know, there was a lot of players that were surrounding the referee. And as a referee, you're trained to try to talk to one, not a group of players, because

you're not going to, you know, have a meaningful conversation or directive with five, six players around you that are just shouting, right? So there was opportunities, referee opportunities where, you know, you could pull the captain aside, right, and say, hey, this is what happened. You know, we're going to go with this decision because X, Y, and Z. Can you please tell your players, you know? And then you create that rapport with the person for them to help you in these situations instead of being dismissive in some of the clips that I saw. And, you know, being that the most machoist man on the block is not going to help anybody. Right. And that's the thing with VAR is that, you know, if referees become reliant on the VAR,

and this is not criticizing the referee, this is the whole, in my eyes, the whole ambient of VAR. You know, you still have to do the referee things that you did, the basics that you did. You still need to connect. You still need to change behaviors with personality. You can't hide behind misconduct, right? Or giving cards or hiding behind VAR. We still need to go out there in referee. and not just in the U.S., but I've seen it throughout the world of games that I've watched is that it's very simple to say,

oh, hold on, I'm checking. Hold on, don't talk to me because I'm checking, right? PK, no PK. Hold on, I'm not going to explain why I didn't think it was a PK. I'm just checking. And that, I think, is frustrates people to the point where, you know, you're not even getting your voice across, right?

And it may seem like I'm being compassionate towards the players, but it's just something that I'm seeing throughout the world. not just an MLS. Do you have kids, if you don't mind my asking? I do have kids, and that's what changed my perspective as well, right? And to be out on the field, you need to have a lot of life experience because that's the way how you're going to be able to manage situations. People always say, you know, referees need to manage the game.

It's just not the game. It's all the situations prior when it's halftime after the game, setting yourself up for the next game. I mean, all these things are important, right? And you don't really realize that until you have four kids jumping around you. Right. Mass confrontation. I wish somebody would come in and rescue me sometimes, you know,

when everybody wants to watch a certain TV show or something. Right. Yeah, I wonder if how, like, what parallels there are between managing a game and the personalities on the field and trying to change people's behaviors with your personality, how many parallels there are between that and just like parenting?

I really, everything that I've learned in refereeing has helped me in my life. You know, doing the right thing when nobody's looking, integrity, all of these words that may be cliche, they're actually real. And they're in my everyday life, even in my business, right?

Or in my job now with CalSelf, all of these things that, I applied as a referee, I applied to my everyday life, right? Because like I said, when you're a young adult, these life lessons, they transcend soccer. Why can't, you know, speaking of mass confrontation, why can't professional soccer solve that problem? The soccer America, I think it was Mike Waitala, had an article about it about a week ago, how it's just not, you know, there's been sort of messages that come down. We're not going to tolerate this. We're going to, we're going to give yellow cards, but there's still people coming up and getting in referee's faces aggressively,

and they're not always getting yellow cards. It seems to be a problem that's hard to fix. Why? I think it's a whole culture. It's not so much the game of soccer, right? You see it in every single sport at every level. I think it's a culture where it's okay. It seems like people think it's okay to question, to get in people's faces, to be irate. They'd see it on TV, so they'd do it on the grassroots level. I think it's just a whole culture that needs to change, right? I'm not a fan of rules and regulations, even though I'm an administrator. I'm not a fan of that. I'm a fan more of highlighting the positive things that we're doing. Because what I see, there's no difference in my opinion in referee abuse from when I referee to now. The only issue is, or different.

difference to me is that, you know, there's social media now. And if something happens, 10 million people see it within a day. And that becomes, that resonates in people's heads and they think that that's reality. But in my opinion, it's no different, right? And I think we need to highlight the good things instead of just focusing on the bad things. Because in my opinion, it is the minority. The bad things don't happen as much as we have about 5,000 games that could be played in a weekend here in Southern California, I get probably zero emails to two emails. And granted, I get the worst of the worst. I'm not getting, you know, somebody got red carded. My position is like the worst to the worst, right? I get those complaints from parents

or coaches. And there's weekends that I don't get any complaints. So what does that tell you? To me, that tells you that the majority of the games are a good environment, right? Can we be better? of course, there's never a doubt in my mind that we could be. But in reality, we should highlight the 90-something percent of the games that actually go well. And then maybe people will be like, I want to do that. But if we just highlight the negativity, then, you know, there's people that, you know, are going to imitate that. Yeah, I think the, well, the article in Soccer America I'm referencing is mostly about the pro game.

Like, that's a, you know, he's, there are a bunch of, just screenshots of images of players, you know, way too close to the referee. So the referee has to put his hands up to stop them. How hard is it to get people to sign up to be referees? Do you have a shortage currently in Cal South? Yeah, I mean, after the pandemic, I think it hurt everybody, right? There was a shortage everywhere, not just in sports, but you would see it. You'd go to a restaurant and you'd have to wait an hour.

you know, and you wouldn't get your food in an hour, and it was better just to stay home and do your own stuff, right? But I think there was a shortage and everything in Socrates. It was no different. You know, we went down to the lowest numbers that we've ever had. Now we're actually at the highest numbers because people now want to, you know, be part of the solution, which I'm very thankful for, not just here in CalSouth, but I'm pretty sure nationwide. So I think it's not that difficult as long as people are aware that that is an option. I think most people want to be part of that solution, right? But like I say, this negativity and these things that we see on social media are a detriment to that. Because now people think that, you know, this is the norm and this is going to happen every time I referee. But it's not.

We have the majority of our referees are from age 13 to about 21. You know, so you have a lot of the young referees out there. You have mentors, you have experienced people. I think right now the shortage is not in numbers. The shortage is in experience because we have a lot of new referees and a lot of the older ones aged out or, you know, did something else with their life through the pandemic. Because we all had to reflect on what was important during that time. So the numbers are pretty good right now for you guys. Yeah, we're at pre-pandemic numbers.

So we're increased than pre-pandemic numbers. So that's really positive. I don't think a lot of states have done that, but we've really worked hard toward that. What are some things you've done to make that happen? Like that you could share? We have a lot of influencers in our community, a lot of people that are leaders because they've done a lot of good work. And they have relationships with the clubs with some of the DLCs from clubs. And they've really gone in there and said, hey, you know, we need to be part of the solution, right?

We have some people that has, we're really partnering with other organizations as well. help that cause. We've gone to colleges as well and picked up those instead of going to work a McDonald's or a fast food chain, which is nothing wrong with that. But, you know, hey, you love this sport. Come and be part of it and you can make some cash. So I think that has really helped our cause. What does a beginning referee make per game in CalSat? So if they do the most youth, They can make about 40 bucks an hour. That's probably what it's at. And, you know, if you start doing centers, you can make $50, $60.

And there is no shortage of games. So I've seen some kids, you know, 16, 17-year-olds, making $7,800 in a weekend. And you're like, wow, I wish I was back because I made $25 when I was coming up, right? But, yeah, you got some little kids that are out there at their high schools being ballers with all their friends. So, yeah, you can make a good amount of money. it's not all about the money right it's you're doing the service i think that's a good thing to speak about is you're part of the solution you can buy some nice shoes with seven hundred dollars a weekend you know hey you can get some really good easies yeah i'm gathering that you

don't want to dwell on the negative too much but i do want to ask about parents how are they I mean, you sort of answered the question already, but let me just put it to you. How are they doing these days in youth soccer, like keeping themselves under control and, you know, treating the refs with respect, setting an example for the kids? Yeah, I mean, I started coaching this year. I had never coached before, right? And, you know, now I'm coaching my kids and I love it, right? What I've seen is there's been respect, obviously, because I'm there, I'm not going to allow it.

but there has to be a person that is level-headed on the team, right? And usually we hope that it's the coach, but it's not always the coach. Sometimes the coach is the one that's a little bit more outlandish. But I think that's the key, is that there has to be somebody on the field, on the sideline. There's always the one that starts it, but there's always should be one that stops it, right? And if you have that balance, I think it's fine. The problem is that if you don't have that balance and one person yell, The next one yells louder.

The next one says something a little bit more egregious. And then it continues on in its spirals. I think everybody has, in my opinion, I think everybody has responsibility on the field to create a good environment for whoever's playing. If it's kids, you want the best safe, fun environment for them to be like, hey, I want to come back next weekend. The last thing you want is a bad environment

and the kids traumatized and then never wants to play. Or a bad environment and, you know, everybody's, it's a full-on brawl and an adult game. That's the last thing you want. And, but I think everybody, there's, to me, you know, I've always, I've always been asked the question, who's to blame? You know, who's the one who's, is it the referees because they're not handling it? Is it the league because there's not enough disciplinary action?

To me, it's everybody. We all have a part in it. You know, when you're out on the field, everybody has a part. there's opportunities for the referee to stomp it out. There's opportunities for a parent to be the level-headed one. There's opportunities for the coach to set that example, right, and speak to his parents or, you know, to his team. But at the end of the day, everybody has that opportunity.

The problem is that when all of those opportunities are missed, that's when you have all of these eruptions on the field. what do you so now that you're coaching your your kids team what what do you say to the parents do you do you do you have like a text message you send before the first game or do you have a meeting where you say some stuff about like yo we're going to treat the we're going to we're going to be calm we're going to treat the referees what do you say to them yeah and i have a meeting i had a meeting with both teams right and i just said hey you know this is who i am this is what i've done um and this is how i'm going to treat your child right and if there's any

thing that you think is incorrect or that you don't feel right about. I'm you know you I'm inviting you to come and tell me right because I did say I knew right even though I know soccer and I've been around in my whole life I'm new at this and honestly we had no incidents there was never a time I would go and give coins the referees before the game and that always helped you know even though there were some 50 50 calls I didn't say anything and maybe that coin pushed that call over the edge. You win more with honey than you do, right, with a beasting. And I think that's something that, like I said, has to be highlighted. That's where we need to go, right? Not just, okay, let me intimidate this person on the field so that they call my way. It's really a tactic that coaches

use, whether they do it on purpose or they don't. You know, if you're arguing a throw in at midfield, that's a tactic. Now, if you're arguing the penalty, kick no penalty kick to decide the game. That's an emotion. And I think referees should also acknowledge that and stomp that out from the beginning because if you let it go on, you're kind of like encouraging it and it's spiraling, right?

Until where you can't control it anymore. Let's stick with the grassroots a little bit. So ZP and Texas, one of our listeners asks, Southern California used to be a hotbed for producing national team talent, but it seems like that's dropped off a little bit in recent years. Why do you think that is?

Wow, that's a tough question. I do have a lot of coaching friends and a lot of administrators that they remember the good old days. I don't think that it's dropped off. I think that everybody's caught up. And, you know, you see it in Kohn Kaff as well, right? You see, and this is, you know, at a different level. But to me, it's the same, right? Before El Salvador or Guatemala or Honduras or Costa Rica were the ones that, you know, they were at the bottom of the table when they play the U.S.

when they played Mexico. And now you see them and those are tough games to play. And, you know, those big giants that were of Comcaf, right, Mexico and the U.S., they're having trouble beating some of these teams that before it wasn't as difficult. And I think it's because everybody's caught up. It's not that the U.S. or Mexico has gone down and level of play. It's that the rest have caught up. And I think it has to do with sports science, be all these things that are available now,

Now, you know, they're not like, you know, the old Brazil that used to play on the beach. Everybody already knows that. It's more common knowledge. Okay, you're going to make yourself stronger if you do this jump training or whatever. I think now, to me, it's the rest of the world is cut up. And, you know, now you have to find this new thing to make you better than the rest. Right. And I think in youth sports is the same.

You have, you know, soccer playing indoors now. So now the before that you only play, you know, three, four months out of the year because of the weather, that's fine. You can play outside for three, four months. But now you have these facilities that are amazing that now you can play year around. So you're having the, and that's, I think, what Southern California has always had, is that great weather. So you do play here in the 12 months of the year rather than, let's say, another place where you only get three or four. but I think now it's it's also something that's more predominant especially in youth to play soccer so you're seeing way more people being filtered into the pipeline which then of course you would

think that there has to be more talent in those people and I think that's why it's it's raising the level of soccer in this country can you can you give us an idea of the size of Cal South you said 5,000 games a week a weekend maybe in your in the association but like how many kids are involved and, uh, yeah. Yeah, I think now you have so many organizations, right? You have at the same time here, you'll have college playing. Um, you know, you'll have all the elite organizations like, um, MLS Next, ECNL, all the national organizations that compete nationally.

Then you have, um, you know, club matches where you have the leagues, like huge leagues. you're talking about like 3,000 clubs. I mean, just a massive amount. Then you have the recreational, right? That, you know, even though they may seem that they're not competitive, but some of those games get pretty competitive. Oh, yeah. You know, and then you have other organizations that are more volunteer-based like AY-S-O.

So there's really not a clear picture of how many amount of games. I could just say it towards this organization. But, I mean, it's a credible amount of math. that are being played. And now, you know, the next four years, you have the Club World Cup, you have the Olympics, you have the men and women World Cup, the senior teams, right? And it's all coming to our soil. So you could imagine when we jumped started in 1994 after the World Cup here, how, you know, it even created MLS in 96. So you could imagine what it's going to do, where it's going to take it. You know, you see Europe and that's the number one.

thing. Here you have so many factors. You have football, baseball, basketball. But soccer's climbing the ladder, especially with these high profile names that are coming in, messy, you know, and who's next, right? And is there anybody else better than messy? Right. So I think that there's a movement. There's a soccer movement that's been going on, but now you see the fruits of it. And I think that it's going to continue to grow. also the copa next summer you know right right i missed one i'm sorry it's okay uh on in the on the pro side trace another listener asks how much do refs prepare specifically for each game do they watch film or look at stats or do they just go into every game expecting to ref them all the same talking about pro

you know pro soccer okay so pro yeah um every two weeks all the pro referees meet. They choose different locations, but when I was there, it was mostly Dallas. And the 30, because there's only about 25 to 30 professional referees, just the ones in the middle, that they're full-time. And they meet, and they go through all of the match critical incidents of the weeks prior. So every two weeks they meet, so two weeks they watch film. And it's a tough room because you have a lot of, you know, characters,

a lot of personas in that room. And nobody wants to really feel like they're being told that they're wrong. But, you know, we've had some heated debates at my time that it was there. I was about eight, nine years there. And at the end, I think it was to create consistency. And I think that's what it was, right? Where when you left that room, even though it was heated at the moment, you were explaining why you did stuff.

Other people were saying, that's not the way to do it. This is how you do it. But at the end, we kind of created a brotherhood. And I hope it's still there. You know, I retired in 2018. But I hope it's still there where at the end it was constructive, right? And you went out of that room feeling empowered to do the things that you need to do. And it created camaraderie and consistency.

That's how it kind of felt when I was there. I don't know exactly how it is now. I hope that it's the same. But, yes, they do watch film. Every match is assessed. and every single call is looked at. So at the end of the game, you have an actual assessor, right, that's watching the whole game.

They have this elaborate video replay stuff that can show you the distance from your call. It can show you how many calls you made for that team. It's just an elaborate whole feature thing that they sent to you. And then you are able to reflect on the match and see if you can get better. Or, hey, I did that good, but how could I do it even more better than what it was?

So yeah, there is, it's a profession. It's a full-time job. These referees are not going somewhere else the next day and working, right? It is a profession. And I think that's what people don't really understand. They just don't get up and do the game. They study everything that goes before it and then after they reflect on it. Okay.

Yeah, that reflection process sounds really interesting. Do you, do you, like, if you were going to be refring this MLS Cup final that's coming up, did you go like watch some footage of how Carlos Vela is playing these days to see like, you know, is he prone to, you know, go down easy on some contact? I mean, how detailed is the preparation for a game that's coming up, you know? Well, if you're doing an MLS Cup, it's because you've already seen the teams in the league, right, before. And you've already been there for a long time. So you already know the teams.

You even know them by first name. So you're going in there. You're not saying, hey, Vela, how you doing? But hey, Carlos, how you've been? And there's that rapport, hopefully, that you've built out through the time that you've been in MLS, right? So you know the team. Now, what most referees do is they'll call the referee prior.

So, for instance, I'll call the person, the referees that did the semifinal. and just ask them questions, hey, you know, I see the film, I saw the game, but, you know, tell me, is there anything that I missed, you know, any issues that you can't see on the tape? And then that person will say, yeah, you know, this happened and that happened and be careful with that. And so there is a type of kind of education of what happened before to set you up for the next one, right?

Or you can say, hey, you know, Carlos Vela had a, few times where I could have carded them, you know, but I told them this and that actually helped me. Oh, thank you for telling me that. You know, and then you work it as well when you're on the field. So there is preparation involved, mental preparation, aside from physical. I think that's the most important thing. At that point, if it was a final, to me, it's an experience. You know, it's an experience. So you're living that experience too, but you can't let the experience take you and you have to be focused on the match. And I think the referees that are at that, they choose the best referee of the season, right? That's what pro does. They choose the best one that has the best marks, and that's,

you know, being consistent. So you should peak at that moment, just how the players should peak, right? And I think that's important to keep yourself mentally sane. It's not an easy thing. I mean, I did a semi-final, right? And I didn't do it in a MLS Cup, but I did do a semi-final. And it was just an amazing game. It was Montreal, Toronto. in 2017. And that was just an amazing series, right, where Montreal was up 3-0 in the first game. I did the first game.

And then at the end, they lose the series. They go back to Toronto, and Toronto beats them. They go play Seattle. So you never know what to expect as well, and you have to be ready for a minute one. That was a fun Toronto team to watch too, right? With Jolvinko. Are refs paid enough?

I'm seeing the average pay for Like not I guess this would be this would include the ARs and everybody But average pay is around 40,000 Does that sound right to you or is there some Some color you can add to that to make it make sense But top refs maybe around six figures Is that enough? So I was there in the first bargaining unit

I believe they're in the second So I don't know the exact numbers of what it is now But in my time I'm talking about four or five years ago it was higher than that it's probably double than that is what a part-time referee would make and then the full-times would make

six figures or over it some of the assistant referees since they're not considered part-time or full-time they're more of an independent contractor they might make around that range depending on how many games you do you do get paid per game when you're an independent contractor

but when and that was assistant referees. But the part time and full time are a salary. So you would get a salary and then also get a game fee. And that would jump up what you made because if you did more games, then obviously you'd make more money at the end of the year. You feel like it's enough the way it is right now? I think it's a lot better than what it was before, before pro,

because there was no professional referee before pro that started in 2012 when they created pro and I was in that original group. Before that, there was four professional referees by U.S. soccer, and I don't have an idea of what they made before pro came in, but there was only four in the country. Right? So from the last 10 years to now, it's dramatically changed

in the favor of the referee. Okay. MCB in New York asks, how much is a player's reputation as a diver or a dirty player going through a professional ref's mind? That sounds like you do discuss some particular players pregame with other refs, right? Yeah, you don't want to be predisposed and, you know, take one game to the next, right?

Like something that the player did the week prior and then try to, you know, say, hey, you did this last week and be already predisposed that you're, you dove. Because if you do that, then you might miss an actual foul. So referees are, even though we do our homework, right, with integrity, you're supposed to judge it on the day based on what happened. There's human, there's human characteristics that go into that and you can't negate something that you've seen, right? And to survive, you're going to be, you're going to do what you've already thought or witnessed before. And I know that there's a human element to that, but it's not supposed to be like that. It's supposed to be with integrity.

And whatever happens at that moment, that's what you have to decide it based on that moment. Is there players that dissent more than others? Is there some that you don't get along with? Yes, that happens all the time. I had my foes that every time we saw each other, we kind of snarl at each other. But at the end of the day, I feel like there was still a mutual respect. Because if they're on that field and you're on that field, it's for a reason. And even though I had those ones that I snarled at, you know, you would still shake their hand.

There was only one player, and I won't say who that is, that he didn't shake my hand before a game. Oh, come on, tell us. Tell us who it was. All right, I'll say it was, it's not a big deal. It's Spindola. He played for Salt Lake. And there was one game that I had left them prior this season. And I gave him a yellow card, and I went over to the coach. and I told him, hey, you know, because he, after I gave him the yellow card, he was still upset. So he was arguing an off-side call, and he was slamming the ball on the ground.

And I went over to the coach. I was like, hey, it's minutes 15 or whatever minute it was. It was early in the game. He already has one. I'm going to give him the other one. So the coach was smart, and he subbed him at that moment. Oh, man. And he was so mad because he only played like 15 minutes, right?

So the liaison that was there, he said, Juan, he went into the locker room. I had to escort him and he was throwing trash cans around, you know. I don't know if that was true. I didn't see it, but he was throwing trash counts around. He was hitting the wall with his fist. So the next time I saw him, I believe it was in D.C. We were doing the national anthem. And, you know, all the players passed by, you're shaking everybody's hand.

And, you know, he was upset. So he goes by and he doesn't shake my hand. Like, that's the worst sign of disrespect you could do to a referee, right? But at the end of it, I roughed the game. He was fine. There was no more cards. And you started building that rapport up again, right? But sometimes the situation, you have to do what you have to do.

Your hands are tied, right? If you let him continue on, then it spirals and then everybody else wants to do the same thing. And then you lost control, you know? Yeah. That's funny. I mean, you were doing him a favor, right? You were doing him and his team a favor by talking to the coach. But I guess he didn't see it that way.

way. All right. Let's talk about VAR a little bit more. What is it that people don't understand about video assistant refereeing and how it works? I'm sure there's a lot, but it's something you've talked about a few times. I'm going to start off with one of the hardest things that you're ever going to do. And I was trained. I was in that original group that was trained.

We were allowed, U.S. soccer was allowed by FIFA to, incorporate obviously because it's the culture right in every single sport we have it so it was not a big surprise that US was granted the ability to be one of the first countries in the world to use var and there was there were some benchmarks that we actually did we did like the first bar call of the world you know it was like a thing right so I was trained in that original group is about two years of training and you know people don't really recognize that or see oh man they're actually trained we were we were doing you know mLS friendly games or preseason matches we would have the

whole setup with all the cameras and we were trained that way we also had um uh like simulations as well and how to do that there's actually terminology that if you say one word it means a whole thing so the people that are in that booth are trained right i know i see your face like wow i didn't know that yeah there's certain words that are trigger words and it means a certain thing right And that everybody knows that. So it's one of the, well, yeah.

Well, I guess my gut reaction to that is like, why is so much training necessary? Basically, you're watching the replays to make sure that the call is correct. Right? I mean, at the end of the day,

that's what it is, right? Right. If you only had one or two replays, but you have about 15 cameras at a time, right? And you need to know where the cameras are placed. And you need to know which one's going to give you the right answer. And there's times, and I've seen it many times, that one camera

angle will give you one decision, you turn it to the other side, and it's a complete different decision. So when you're on the field, and that's where I was going to, people, since you're human, you get one glance at it, right, and you have the ARs, which is the second glance at it. You know, you're human, you're able to make a mistake. It's more accepted. But when you're in that booth, there's no exception. You have all the tools necessary to make the right call. But some of the angles are conflicting. And based on your experience and your judgment,

you have to decide which one is the one that is most prevalent or which one is the one that is going to give me the right answer. And sometimes, you know, let's say you're a producer on a show, you want to show the controversy. So they might change it on you. They might show the camera angle that doesn't show anything. And, you know, this var's crazy. At the end of the day, it's an incredibly difficult thing because you only have a certain amount of time because if not it takes away from the game.

It has to be clear and obvious. So if it's not clear and obvious, then you can't send it down. And you cannot send questions. And I think that's something that people don't understand. If Avar is sending something down, he's sending it because he thinks that that call should be overturned. they're not they don't send questions so for instance oh come and take a second look at it i think there's no i think this is a penalty kit because x y and z i'm going to show you the point of contact and i'm going to show you in real time that's what the var is saying so if a referee is being called

out to watch the monitor it's because the person that watched it is telling them that it's wrong and you have to reverse it now a lot of people don't understand that i didn't know that no right If you're a referee, there is some factors to play in there. If you're a young referee and the var is your hero that you watch referee for all your life, send something down, you tell me if you're not going to go with that person. Probably. Yeah. So that's where I think you have these issues.

Even though we talk about integrity, there is still human aspects that to me leave the possibility of doubt because now you're putting in a human element where the var is supposed to be black and white. It really isn't. It really isn't. And at the end of the day, how FIFA set it up, there's still judgment calls that have to be made from the bar. And that's what you don't want.

You want only black and white calls, right? You want goal, no goal. You want offside, no offside. You want things that are 100% factual. But that's not how it's set up. There's still judgments that have to be made. by a second person in the booth. And if that second person in the booth,

there's so many factors there as well. Is that a new person? Is that a younger referee? Right? Is that an older referee? Who is refting the game? All these things that I don't think people are aware of. They're part of the mix.

And at the end, you have these decisions. They're like, wow, why did that happen? You know, and I see it clearly because I was there and I can judge, okay, well, you know, this referee is working the match. you know, this bar is on the game. So to me, I can already put in my conclusions on why that call went in that fashion. It's similar to an AR and a referee as well, right?

You have a lot of different dynamics in that sense, too. I had a lot of ARs that were very well experienced, went to World Cups, you know, was top of Kohn-Kaff, and if they made them a decision, that's gold. And a lot of, most of the time they're going to be right. It's that one time that, you know, it's something that wasn't the right thing, but you were kind of pushed into it. I think the way FIFA did it is they opened up Pandora's box with allowing, you know, I don't they say clear and obvious, but then what is that to you? To me, clear and obvious is that there was zero contact. To some people, that might be, there was a little bit of contact, but to me it's not a foul.

So you can see the discrepancies in different applications of one person to the next. Yeah. Do you have any ideas on how to improve the VAR process? Or do you think it's pretty good? I guess we're talking about an American soccer in MLS. Yeah, I think there's really nothing you can do to change it. right and um you know it's a beast that's gonna you know kind of go on its own and there's going to be situations where it's going to be like wow that's great that we have bar and there's

going to be situations where it's like why do we have this um at the end of the day i think a lot of the the calls especially on the ars it it um it shows that they're pretty pretty accurate it shows that they're pretty accurate especially with off-sides they're pretty accurate The problem that we have is, I think, the changing the yellow to a red or the PK-no-P-K, those are judgment calls. And I think that's where the issue is. But everything else, to me, like, you know, everything that leads up to a goal to make sure that it's clean, the offside to make sure that that's clean. If there's a player that's misidentified, right, you give the wrong card to the wrong person. I think that's clean.

Those are black and white things. But to me, the judgment ones are the ones that we're going to keep having these issues because, you know, everybody has a different perspective. If you could change a rule in soccer, well, I'll just tell you the part of VAR that frustrates me is when somebody is, you know, just like an inch offside. And then it calls back a beautiful goal. And, you know, we've talked on our podcast about like maybe a different kind of offside rule. maybe there needs to be daylight between the attacker and the defender. Do you have any of like, I'm not trying to influence your answer here, but do you have anything that you, you know, a rule change that you kind of would like to see someday?

Let me talk about that offside. I do say no. And to me the most difficult one for people to understand is handling, right? Because even though it touches your hand, it might not be called because of all the criteria that goes on to a hand handling offense. And I think that one takes the cake, especially in the youth game. If it ever touches a hand, whether it's by their side or not, everybody thinks it's a handball and they're screaming, right?

And I think that one is difficult to manage. And then the offside one as well, like you said, I think there's so many layers there that at times, you know, FIFA tries to clear it, but I feel like it confuses more people than it actually helps. So if those were to be dumbed down, because, you know, I'm pretty sure you know the most obvious one, you know, being in front of the second last defender. But there's other off sides against the opponent, taking a clear advantage. There's other offsides that unless it happens, oh, yeah, that is right, you know.

But at the field, it's mayhem because people don't remember those, right? Right. So I think handball is probably the one that needs to be a little bit clear. Even though referees understand it or we understand it, I don't think. think that transcends or goes into the general public knowledge of soccer, right? And I hear it all the time, right? Handball, handling, you hear it on the sideline, right? And it was like the hand was at its side. It was a natural position. And it touched the hand. The ball went into the hand. It wasn't the opposite. And I think those are the hardest ones to deal with on the field.

Okay. What about this idea of a sin bin, like a penalty box? I guess it's I don't know how accurate the reports are, but it's allegedly under consideration in Major League Soccer? What do you think of that idea? I've heard it a few times. Even before that, there was a few people at FIFA were trying to push it for, or it was kind of like their campaign, right?

And it didn't work out. But, you know, soccer is a beautiful sport on its own, right? And I think, you know, sometimes we try to swing the pendulum too much to the left or too much to the right. when it's only affecting a few individuals. And to me is, I don't, I don't want anything to take away from the game, right? Or to distract the actual game and the amazing athletes that are out there.

And, you know, the great tactics that they do, right? And the question is, is it so prevalent. Is it so prevalent that we need something like that? Because it's completely out of control. and every game that we watch a disaster and the referee can't handle it and the coaches are going bonkers. I don't know.

I don't see that. Yeah, I don't either. I don't either. Well, I don't see that. Maybe I'm naive, right? But I don't see that. And I've refereed this game for 25 years and I've been on those soccer field

since I was a little boy. Right? I'm 36 now. I'm going to be 37 soon. But I don't see that. And to swing the pendulum too much for something that's not so big to me is, is one, a waste of time, and two, taking away from a sport that

it's just a beautiful sport. Why would you want to change something that's working? I think I agree with you. Yeah. I guess handball is sort of in this category, but are there some rules that you constantly have to explain to players and coaches? I mean, maybe even in your coaching role now? Yeah.

Yeah, I think the offside is one that people kind of, to me, when you're yelling at half field for an offside and it happened by the goal line or within the six more walks, there's no way that you can tell if that was offside or not, unless it was like so egregious, right? But, you know, you really have to be on that invisible line of offside to be able to tell if it's offside or not. If you're not on that line, even the assistant referee, if he's not square on. that line, you'll miss it. Right. So that's the one that I think that needs to continue to be explained. When the ball goes in and out of the goal and you're also saying it from half field or from the other side of the field, the parents are saying it's a goal, you know, that's not, referees cannot guess. And I think people don't understand that either.

Even though it seems like it's the right call, it's basically in every single referee training, we cannot guess. You have to be 100% sure to be able to see it. Now, there's a lot of experienced referees like myself or others that I referee with my gut instinct. And it's basically what people expect, right? I judge it. I see all these things and I have all the experience from the past. And I make a decision based on a gut instinct.

But it's really not just a gut reality instinct. It's all this training and information that I've had throughout my years, and I make the most probable call. Now, referees that have experience can do that and get away with it and call what people expect, what football expects. But if you don't have that training, you have to call what you see. You cannot invent or say, hey, I thought it happened. That's not really a good process because you're going to get it wrong more times you're going to get it right. I've never refed before, but I can imagine. You should, Adam.

What's that? I know, I should. I should. I do coach my kids' teams, rec soccer. But, and I'm very nice to the refs, Juan. I want you to know. I'm very, I'm doing my part. But it does seem like if I were in AR, I've thought about this a lot.

If I were in AR, I would have a really difficult time being consistent enough to stay. on that invisible line. Like, I would get distracted. I would start watching the ball. The centerback would move. I would forget that where I'm supposed to be. How do you, how do ARs do that? Like, just constantly stay on that invisible line.

What's the, what's the trick to it? I think you're not the only one. It's called ball watching, right? Oh, man, I want to see that. And then you're like, oh, they went five yards. You know, my kid started refereeing. He's 11. And he started refereeing.

He's doing, you know, recreational tournament. and whatnot, right? And there's also for younger people, it's difficult to focus, right? And I've seen that a lot where it's difficult to focus for more than 10 seconds. But I think in refereeing, we teach like the perfect, I'm going to screw up this word. It's kind of seen through the side of your eye and also see. Peripheral. Peripheral.

Sorry, sorry. It's the ethnic tongue that I have. I apologize. I was going to do it with too many Ls. So that's what you teach is you sidestep to be able to have the field square when you're making a decision, right? And then you're watching with your peripheral vision because you have to see two things at the same time. And what we teach is when your teammate, your attacking teammate, kicks the ball. to the teammate that's whether it offside or not offside,

you have to take a snapshot from that moment, right? And you have to wait because you're not sure if somebody else that's onside comes on. It's called the wait and see. I don't know who invented that word, but that's an amazing word, the wait and see because that's actually what you do. Because there might be a player that comes, that's an onside and goes and gets the ball. And the one that was an offside never was involved in the play.

So even though, you know, that your, that teammate kicks the ball, you have to take that snapshot at that moment, not call it yet. It might be you still have to keep running 15, 10 yards, 15 yards, whatever it is. And then, okay, that player that was an offside is now active and part of the play, then you stop and raise the flag. So it's not an easy, like, oh yeah, this is an easy thing to do. But it's not the worst thing in the world either because you see a lot of these young kids now and they're really good at it.

I mean, I see some, we have a mentor group of about 100 referees. mentor group that we that we follow we train we develop more because they're the next you know you can see the potential and you know these kids are are amazing at it right and you see a lot of referees around the country that are getting better and better because you have all this training does your dad still ref no he's he's older but he's still out on the fields coordinating the referees doing you know he loves it if he's if he's not on the field he's he's upset he's you know hey when one of the next games i want to be out there It's just a beautiful thing to be around. Sometimes I'll go and I'm just walking the fields.

And I'm like, man, I have the greatest job in the world. Awesome. Anything you wish I would have asked you? No, I think you did a really good job. The last thing I would like to say is I really want to highlight the amazing part of the game that parents, coaches, administrators. referees, especially parents. Because now that I have my kids and I'm coaching them and I have to take them to games and you want to put in that extra hour at work because you need to get something done

and you're already thinking in your head, oh man, can I just cancel today? Because that'll help me for the week because I won't be behind in my work. And to stop what you're doing and go take your kid to a game when you have so many other priorities, right? Oh, man. Not to say your kids are not a priority, but I mean, you have a lot of things that you have to do at the moment, right? Some people have that type of job. And to go out and take a kid to play and stop everything.

It's difficult at times. And I've realized what important role the parents have to take their child to a SAR game, because then they grow up and then they take their child. And it becomes this whole ecosystem of support. to soccer. So I want to highlight that. I know a lot of people want to highlight the abuse, but I want to highlight that. And if we encourage good behavior on the field without taking that excitement away, I think that's where we can start changing the culture, is to say, hey, this is how you should do it. We encourage you to do it. We empower you to do it. Please tell others to do it. And I think

that's how we're going to be changing. Rules and regulations are not going to change anything. People are to circumvent them the best way they can. So I think we need to start working on the culture and highlighting all the great parents that are out there. Okay, what a great note to end on. Juan Guzman, thank you so much for your time and your service to the game in this country. And thanks everybody for listening. We'll see you.