Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #495: Patron questions on Copa -- 3 at the back, rotations, Giowatch, etc.

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

Greg and Belz try to respond to a whole raft of questions from subscribers across the country. What about 3 at the back? How will Tim do versus Vini if he plays right back? Which player will improve his stock in the transfer market this summer? What is the problem with Gio at his clubs? Who do we match up against the best? Should we expect to make the semis? And much more.———Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon! Patrons get a private feed for the Monday Review, which is, among other things, a run-down of club action for national team players every week with Watke and Vince. Patrons also get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and our full catalog of historic recaps, plus right of first refusal on our next Scuffed trip to Europe: https://www.patreon.com/scuffed Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Scuff podcast where we talk about U.S. soccer. Hey, everybody, the soccer never stops. Here we are. Thursday, May 30th, 20204. Venezia is playing for promotion later this afternoon. The U.S. women's national team plays its first game with Emma Hayes on the touchline on Saturday. Against South Korea, Wilfred Nancy and Columbus will try to win Cockat Calf Champions Cup at Pachuca on Saturday as well. Greg, you'll be in Commerce City. see the women play, right?

Yeah, I'm going to be in Commerce City to watch the women, watch Emma's full debut where she's fully in charge. But I'm sure I'll be paying attention to the Venetia, promosia. Is that the Italian way we're saying it? They're going to earn Promotia. Promotia. And then hopefully I'll be able to catch future U.S. men's national league coach

Wilford, Nancy, and Columbus win a trophy. But also, you know, Copa America's coming up. and USM&T players are arriving to camp as we speak. Actually, I think most of them have arrived already. We've got a bunch of listener questions to read and respond to. So let's get started and then get you off to Denver. Yes. Yeah, it does.

It feels like this is like we're just about to start. Like, you know, when you get the sled right at the top of the hill, and you almost have to, like, dig your feet in so you don't accidentally. Like, we have, we're going to be racing downhill this summer. there's a lot of episodes coming, a lot of soccer. And we're not even covering the Euros, you know? Yes, we'll just also get to flip that on. Like, oh, you as having played, don't have a game for another couple hours,

we can watch some decent quality soccer on the telly. Yeah. All right, first question from Reese Montanarillo in Phoenix. I'm going to throw this one over to you first, Greg. Would you rather the USM&T make a deep, Copa run by playing more pragmatically or go out earlier than expected with guns blazing trying to impose themselves no matter the opposition? Deep run. I want the deep coper run because a deep coper run means we beat Brazil in the Copa America.

There's almost no way around it, right? I mean, I guess you could say, no, the universe where we make a deep coperon is the one where Brazil crashes out spectacularly in the group stage. But I also, again, don't know exactly what the difference would look like between. pragmatic, like a pragmatic approach and what we already do. That's what I always kind of struggle with when we get a ton of criticism for like not adopting some pragmatic approach. We are a pretty pragmatic team. We are incredibly controlled in ways that you usually attempt to be for tournament soccer.

So I don't feel like there's going to be much change and I would still say we are playing some pragmatic stuff here. Yeah. You give me your thoughts. Like what do you usually see us do? What do you see in Qatar that you would say we really should have just been more pragmatic? Yeah, I think up until the Netherlands game at the World Cup, we were extremely solid at the back. You know, we gave up very little to any of our first three groups stage opponents.

You know, we had that penalty late against Wales, didn't give up a goal to Iran or England. Yeah, and the penalty to Wales, we fell asleep, right? So I wouldn't say it's like, oh, we just over-exerted ourselves, or we were just playing some wide-open, wild soccer. Like, we fell asleep on a throw-in, an unusual situation where Jedi had gotten pulled up, and then made a terrible mistake by Walker Zimmerman to over-commit on a very good Gareth Bale player.

Right. So I just don't know if Guns Blazing is really in Burhalter's playbook. You know? Exactly. Right. Like it's, he is a coach who, at least when the games really matter, prioritizes solidness at the back. And I still think we managed, like, to your point,

we do manage to impose ourselves even with that, you know, like we managed to impose ourselves in England a little bit. Because we had this, you know, this totally dynamic midfield. I guess to answer that, well, you go ahead, go ahead. Well, I was going to say, I was going to push back on that and say, imposing ourselves might be a little bit strong. We definitely, we make it hard for the opponents to impose themselves, which can kind of look like we're really, you know,

we little brother people in that midfield. You know, that's kind of what we've been doing to Mexico for the past few A-team games. It's like, we might not always look pretty, but like you're going to look way less pretty than what you would be. maybe expect a Mexico team to look or, you know, England is not going to have the kind of control in this game that you might expect a team with their talent and resources to have. And so in that sense, you could say we impose ourselves on a midfield.

But, you know, it's not like we were just running through England, carving them open for chance after chance, and we certainly weren't doing that against the Netherlands. No, and then, of course, you know, people will disagree about our assessment of the way Burrhalter plays because they'll say, well, against the Netherlands, we were way too open. I don't know that we want to litigate that again, but I guess my thought on it is we had Tyler Adams

and then Sergenio Dest and then Anthony Robinson each essentially fall asleep marking somebody. Jedi has maybe the best defense in court on this one because he had, because Tim Riem was involved too. But I, yeah, I think I definitely would prefer a deep cope around than to any kind of idealism, you know, in the abstract. Yes, absolutely.

Whether it's pragmatism or an incredibly healthy dose of luck, we'd probably need all of those things. Yeah. It's a moment of magic here or there. So just to kind of, you know, answer the other side of the, what would be, what would some people see as pragmatism? Some people might just say, like, the pragmatism that comes to mind would just be ultra, ultra deep block, where it's literally just like commit to.

you know, 11 players to the last 30 yards of the field and defend for your life for 90 minutes. And I think that that is not inherently the pragmatic approach. Like it's not like that is always the most pragmatic approach, even if you're the underdog. So that's just kind of where I kind of'm like, well, we can be pragmatic. That doesn't mean sit with 11 players as deep as possible and just try to keep a shell the way, you know, we did against Spain in 2009. I just don't think we're accustomed to that or really know how to do it. Right. That's what I feel like.

I feel like that would actually put immense pressure on our players in ways that we would, we actually might stand up worse trying to do that than we would in harrying people a little bit farther away from our goal and trying to make that kind of thing happen. Yeah, burst forward into the counterattack, I guess. All right, hopefully that answers your question, Reese. Good question. We have three, three at the back questions. So I'll read each of them and then we'll take on the subject, I think, as a whole. Whit Richardson and Fort Worth, Texas says, among all options, where do you rank playing a three at the back system as an alternate to playing without Sergenio? And if you were to go down that path, how would you structure it? S. McCanderson and Milwaukee said Greg Berthorhalter reference three at the back as a possibility. Presumably this would be something like the best 11 with a CB subbing in for desk. Would this experiment intrigue you or annoy you? And then ENF in Walnut Creek, California, says, I would love to hear you guys break down

how we could realistically approach going three at the back. I have always been against it because a worst soccer player comes on, but with Destout, this is the perfect time. I do not prefer three at the back for the reasons Ian and Walnut Creek elucidated, a worse soccer player coming on for a better one. I forget to read this part. He says it might make us more solid plus more dangerous on dead balls.

And I do kind of agree with that. Maybe we could get a little more danger from corner kicks and so forth. But I'm interested to hear what you have to say. But I just think Waya should be fine as the Sergenio fill in and maybe even add a bit of cutting edge around the corner on that right side. For me, that's the clear first choice in my ranking. After that, probably Wes is the second choice. choice deputizing for Sergenio and then maybe three at the back is the next best option ahead

of, you know, starting Shaq Moore or Joe Scali. Okay. I'm still very much like, no, I'd rather just start Scali because, you know, I'm not opposed to going three at the back. I think it would be great if we could develop that and have that sort of in our, in our quiver for tournament play, for now for 2026 as we kind of keep building this group. But I totally think it is. a matter of like you're introducing mediocrity to replace instead of some other mediocre option. So I don't necessarily think like going this route specifically to try to like solve the Sergenio desk issue is particularly worthwhile. So, you know, again, the reason that this whole Joe Scali discussion is happening is because

we are in a spot now where we have some very good players on the bench that we're like, oh man, why would we bring Joe Scali in if we have a very good player who we could potentially get on the field. But none of those players that come to mind, I mean, it's not Cameron Carter Vickers. You know, like, that's not the guy who's like, we got to find a way to get Cameron Carter Vickers on the field. That's how we're going to make a deep coper run.

So I very much just be like, okay, if Way or Wes, if it's not working, if we lose too much in the spot, they have vacated or if they just can't do the job at right back, I think it's very much just like plug in a right back, Joe Scally and and try to roll with it. Because he can, I mean, again, he's defensively solid enough and you can sit him home

to give you that stability that you would try to have from a back three. If you're just trying to keep numbers back. Yeah. The thing is, the soccer's such a weakest, what is it, the weakest link kind of game. You know, especially when you're trying to impose yourself to the limit extent that we are going to try to do that

against good teams in the Copa America. Scali doesn't help us with that at all. But, you know, neither does CCV. So I take your point. Yeah. And that's the other spot, you know, that could apply to the first question as well when you talk about imposing yourself. Part of imposing yourself for the U.S. as an underdog could be like just defense by possession. You know, try to run clockout against a Brazil by having extended periods of time.

where nothing is really happening in the soccer game. That's, that's a very, that's any time nothing is happening in a zero-zero game against Brazil. That's very good for the U.S. Like, it's funny. It's ridiculous to, you know, kind of think about what it's like, oh, this is, you know, we're walking out of bounds to take a throw in. This is a win for us for the next 18 seconds.

This is 18 seconds of advantage that Brazil are losing. Yes. So that all adds up. And, you know, when you talk about weakest link, Joe Scali is not going to, to possess the way Sergenio does. You can also throw in our goalkeepers. We're not going to get, we have that issue when we're trying to defend by possession as well, where we just can't rely on a safety valve back there.

We have stress valves in the back. So. Stress valves. You know, so again, if you could configure a back three that gives you a little bit more composure, just with the structure, or if you just do think your next guy up, whether it's CCV, like CCV, Riem and Richards, if you think that's something, more composed back three to build out of, then that becomes another justification for trying it in a situation where every meaningless pass we connect back there is four seconds off the clock.

Okay, yeah, that's one way to look at it. So the three centerbacks, like you just said, are going to be likely if we do a three at the back would be Richards, Ream, and CCV. And to answer McAnterson's question, I guess I would be intrigued if I saw we were going to try to do it. Of course, I'd be intrigued. until it started to not work very well, and then I would become annoyed. So.

But if we're going to, you know, game it out on paper, like, I assume Jedi is now your wingback. Yeah, and then Way. Because you're not taking Jedi off the field. You would never, again, you wouldn't do this if it's like, okay, but now we also have to take Jedi off the field. And we'll have Wea on one side and McKinney on the other side as your wing backs. But either Wea or McKinney could be the wingback on the right, depending on, again, which guy you want. They both have been doing it for you, Vey. I mean, right?

Or is that if we're going to add our wing back on the right side? And then you've got to just pick two of your center mids between, if it's the way out in the wing, even you've got McKinney, Musa, Johnny Adams, you just put two of those guys together. I mean, obviously McKinney is on the field. Yes. Yeah, probably, yeah, McKenny and one of Johnny or Tyler. And then you just do like the same kind of front three that we typically have,

probably Pulisic, Gallagin, and. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course. Put Raina up top. I don't know. It just doesn't, I don't know. I would take it. Again, you got 433. You got Chris Richards who can step up into the midfield, not like he's going to be a maestro there, but like he's, you know, if the buildup calls for adding another player up high, Richards can step a little bit higher just because he's at least comfortable. Again, that's kind of a reach. He wasn't like a. Premier League defensive midfielder, Chris Richards. Right, right. He was more in there to do the destroying and not do the building up. So if you're using him as the buildup solution in that spot,

you know, you're definitely not working in optimal circumstances. No. I think the optimal is to stick with the 433. But, yeah, there you have it. Dest is God in New York asks, what player or players do you think boosts their transfer value the most this summer? I'm going to assume he's talking about American players. Yeah, yes.

Not Hendrick. I'm going to say Gio. I'm going to say Gio because he's his transfer market value has taken a little bit of a hit over the last eight, you know, two and a half years, basically. And, you know, he went from 42 million euros in December 2021 to just under 20 million now. That's, of course, on transfer market, but it's a pretty good approximation, I think. I'm going to predict he comes roaring back this summer by performing well, as he has done for the men's national team in all of his recent appearances. He'll continue to perform well this summer.

He'll do it against better competition. And maybe I'm just wishing here, but it'll launch him into a new phase of his career. Now, I think that's the easy answer because he's also the guy who is sort of like seems the most mysteriously dropped from his from his club team, right? Like all of his bars on FB. Ref look great

for the minutes he plays. Right. So then you're just like, so what's going on? Is there something? So if he comes in and shows that he can like do stuff against Brazil, do stuff against Uruguay, I think that again, that'll get people interested and be like, well, he is,

he could be legit. We can make this work. So I think he's definitely the easy answer. All the other guys, there's so much tape on him from the season that it's hard to imagine much up or down. Yeah, I mean, you could get like a sergeant who doesn't have who all his tape is against championship teams.

If he comes in and like does business against, you know, top tier defenders, that could bump him. Yeah, sergeant's a good shout. A few mills. So, so go there. But really the answer is going to be, it's actually the hilarious answer is going to be it's Joe Scali. He's going to come in, much maligned.

he's going to be a shutdown right back and he's going to be constantly put under pressure and he's going to answer every call and he'll move for 11 million. Awesome. That would be cool. All right, related question to my answer there. I'll just skip ahead to it. Rugger Dog in Orlando asks,

what do we think is going on with Gio at the club level? I assume he would be playing if clubs thought he could help. Is it his attitude? helicopter parents, does he not fit the systems? I think this is a great question. If you read between the lines on this move to forest this past spring and some of the reporting about it, it's helicopter parenting, and the rotor blades have made contact with the earth.

It's time for Claudio. We just see the giant dust kick up, and somewhere in there is still Giorina. Yeah. It's time to stop Helderia. helicoptering for for Claudio I think I mean probably also some immaturity when it comes to earning a coach's trust on Gio's part I mean this guy's got to be that to some extent um the way I look at is Burrhalter is basically despite everything that's transpired between him and the reign of family he is a lifelong friend of the family despite what's happened and for now I'm saying he's able to get more out of Gio and maybe more generous to Gio than just like, you know, generic club coach who happens to have Gio in the locker room. I mean, that's my best explanation for why he is,

we're able to get so much out of him from the national team when he can't even get on the field for a team that's in the relegation fight in the Premier League. Yeah. So I think it's probably all of the above, yeah. Yeah, the context obviously always matters. So, you know, Dortmund have a lot of good players that Gio's battling against. And Forrest might not have a lot of good players, but the really good player they have plays Gio's position.

And Gio isn't such a, like, the kind of player, you're like, oh, I'll just fit him in somewhere else and he'll still do a lot for us. Like, he's got to be able to do the exact thing that he's really good at, for the most part, at that level. For the U.S., it's not that at all. Like, we get him on the field because, uh, He can give us the things that no one else can give us, and he's good enough at the other things that it's not like, oh, no, we have to have Johnny in there instead because Johnny's more defensively resolute.

Right. As we say that, I'm sure either of us would be like, sometimes you could just leave GEO out for 60 minutes because we're playing Brazil and then throw him in to try to win the game late. I could see that, yeah. I mean, I want to see him for 90 minutes against Brazil. I did too. And I think the other thing is maybe his, you know, we don't know exactly what his fitness situation is.

But it's definitely not that there aren't any question marks about it. So that's another thing. But then, you know, all that said, he's only 21. Plenty of time for him to put it together. And I'm going to say he's the big winner from this summer. So there you go. Let's see. Alex in Chicago says, who do you guys think has the most to lose?

in this Copa America player-wise. Do you feel that there are guys whose role with the national team could be diminished based on the outcome of the tournament? I mean, if you're talking about with the national team, it's the edge cases. So, like, if Ricardo Pepe's on the roster, he's the guy who I think has something to lose. I feel like he kind of already just had that experience at Nations League.

But the same would apply for all the other guys that Pepe's competing with, right? So if Balo just has like a shocker, he could get dropped and then it could be like hard to get back up into that into that tier. Assuming, again, assuming Sergeant delivers. So when Pepey didn't deliver in Nations League and gets dropped for Haji, Haji didn't really make the most of that time up top. And obviously, you know, at this point, Berlter sort of is like, Haji might just be a winger. Maybe his time is competing with Pepe for a rotational or backup striker spot That window may have closed now after Haji wasn't particularly effective either

Yeah Yeah It feels it'd be crazy for Ballo to fall out of the picture But I guess it's possible I feel like Luca Deloere You know if he can't make an impact In this camp Maybe becomes increasingly optional on future rosters

I can't see anybody really, like, dropping out of the picture completely based on this tournament. Right. It'd be, like, you could see a little setback, but like a Malik Tillman is another guy who has everyone so excited because of the numbers and highlight reels he's putting together PSV. But it's been a much quieter to sometimes just not very good at all performances for the U.S. men. national team. So again, if he comes in and, like, absolutely is drowning out there in these games, that could be like, okay, he's not a must-call guy for the next 18 months. Yeah.

I suppose it does seem like it would be extreme for anybody to really suffer too much from what happens this summer. Max Dressbach in Seattle, but he wants us to know. Columbus is his real home. How much does Tyler's injury record concern you? Should we have brought someone like Maloney or even Testman to have additional cover behind Johnny if Tyler can't go? I wouldn't have cared.

Again, we got 26 spots. We've got spots to play with. So if we'd brought another person, that makes sense from a roster balancing standpoint. But we also have contingencies. Again, we've run Musa there for a while when Tyler was gone. Musa might not have been great, but he definitely offers some things that you're never going to get from Maloney. Lerone.

Tessman obviously has the Olympics to consider, so to bring him as a guy you might not end up resorting to anyway. Even if something happens to Tyler, you might still not be like, oh, well, we're going to go to Tessman now. Like, we might just run Musa instead, even if Tessman were on the roster. So sending Tessman to Paris makes a lot more sense. And then, like, we talked about total emergency, we do still have Chris Richards sitting over there to just fill in, to fill a spot. And, you know, I'd probably trust. I trust his passing even a little bit more than Maloney's, even though we know Richards isn't a, again, he's not going to be dropping dimes from

that back there. Maybe a dime every 90 minutes, you know. So I'm not terribly concerned about having coverage behind Tyler South. Tyler South generally worries me because I really just want a guy to have a healthy run. Right. Yeah, that's the main concern it has for me too. I guess I'm just becoming a put the best players on the field, idyllogue because I think, yeah, Eunice can deputize there. I think Wes can deputize there just fine.

And the gap between them deputizing there and a Maloney or a Testman is pretty, I think pretty large still. So, not too. I mean, there's a tiny sample, but, the senior camp Testman got with the grownups, with the real guys, he struggled. And then Luca was in there. And Lucas started and got hurt. And then Testament came in and Testament really struggled.

But so even then, even in a situation where a team wasn't really pressing us that much, Testman still didn't look great. Tiny sample. And that was a full season ago. And there are some nerves when you're in, I don't know if that was his first cap. It was, you know, maybe his first significant one. Okay. Andre in Salt Lake is the U.S.

the Conca Calf team most likely to make a deep run. I'm going to say yes. Man, I got to be a, I'll wet blanket it and say, no, I'll still say yes. I'm trying to just do the math, and the math with Brazil looming there is tough. But we do have some math where we don't play Brazil in the first knockout game.

So, yeah, I think we're probably still the, like Mexico will not play Argentina if they get to the knockouts in their first knockout game. So just Mexico getting out of their group means they will have an easier knockout for chance to get to the semis. Columbia is, I mean, I guess to argue against my own point, even if we face Colombia in the first knockout round, Colombia is good. Right.

We'd be an underdog in that game. Yeah, we would. The betting odds have Colombia a little bit more likely than us to win Copa America. and they beat Brazil, you know, in Barranquilla. What was it in November? Yeah. That was the game where Luis Diaz scored two goals after his dad had just been released by kidnappers. Pretty incredible scenes.

Yeah. So, and then Brazil has since added a manager. So they've gotten their manager and then kind of got their, got a couple of good results against European sides with the win over England, drew Spain. So they at least don't look like they're not. they didn't fall totally into a shambles. So yes, I mean, it just comes down to we have a buzzsaw side of the bracket. But that's good. Like, you can't do exciting things if you don't get a chance to get through a buzzsaw.

That's right. Nothing was ever accomplished without getting through a buzzsaw. That's the old saying. Ancient Greek saying. Dan in Greenville says, sorry, Dan in Greenville, South Carolina says, how much pressure is on Waya not only to potentially deputize as a right wing back, but also to provide sauce flare with his style in that position. I don't think there's any special pressure on him there.

Do you? Do you put pressure on him there, Greg? I mean, I'm relying on him, but I just don't see Tim Waia as a player who seems to experience pressure whatsoever. I don't think I've ever seen him look plused. He is extremely non-plussed. Yeah, he looks sometimes a little cautious with Juventus, I would say. Maybe that doesn't count as plused.

I think there's a distinction for sure. Okay. I mean, you see guys who, again, I go back to that, like, internal clock the players have. You see guys who get a little panicky. Like, we all know what that looks like as fans of the U.S. men's national team. We've grown up with just the most panicky players. And that's just not him way out. And again, he just, it just, it's like not part of him to not just control the ball and then do a couple of stepovers while he's just looking around.

Like it's just muscle memory for him. Yeah. Yeah, I think he'll, I think whatever pressure is on him, he will handle it well. D. Law in Miami asks, semifinals or bust? Boring answer for me, but of course it depends. If we face Brazil in the quarters and get beat in some kind of like 3-2 or 4-3 track meet or something, and it's an exciting match and we played well by our standards, I'm going to have a hard time calling that a bust.

We just don't have the players that Brazil has, or, I mean, frankly, that Uruguay has. So I think the odds are we take second in the group and get bounced by Brazil on July 6th in Glendale, Arizona. I will not be furious if that happens unless we, you know, play like crap. Yeah, that's how it always comes for me. Like, any time I watch the U.S. play, it's always about do we look organized? Do we have a plan? Do we have an idea? Did the players all seem to understand that we're executing the plan and are doing the same thing?

That's what I'm after. And then again, you just light your candles. We are very obviously worse than Brazil. So we need some combination of luck Our players to be playing out of their minds Brazil's players to be having an off day Shocking referee decisions Like you need something like that

There is no there is no magic set of pragmatic tactics It's going to be like suddenly we are now 6040 favorites To beat Brazil Like you get yourself as organized as possible To give yourself the best chance you can And then soccer is a funny game You know I've mentioned 2009 already there was nothing going into that game

that was like, we have what it takes to beat Spain. We'd already gotten pantsed in the group stage twice, once by Brazil, once by Italy, the miraculous game against Egypt. I remember people were like, it was during the work day in the Midwest,

the Spain match was, and there were people like, no point in watching this. And I was like, you guys are insane. Like, yes, we're much worse than we've been a horror show for two-thirds of this tournament so far,

but it's 90 minutes to soccer. Like, you got to give it a shot. So we ended up, you know, getting a group of players. to duck work or a group of folks to duck work. And then you get to see the like historic win. So yeah, that's just what I was saying. There's nothing that's going to make us favorites against the Brazil or Colombia or Uruguay.

But you get in, you give yourself a decent chance. You let a goalkeeper stand on their head and you just give yourself a chance to roll those dice. Right. And it is, I mean, we say this all the time, but it is such a, It's such a game of variance. I mean, I just watched pretty recently the game where Real Madrid beat Bayern Munich in the semifinals of the Champions League. And it was such a weird game because Brazil was the better team,

but Bayern Munich was very resolute in their defending. They kept it even. And then they got that bomb blast from Alfonso Davies in like the, I don't know, the 65th minute or something. went up one zero. Again, Real Madrid was the better team on the night. They looked better. But the only way Real Madrid won the game

was a mistake from Manuel Noir. He spills a relatively routine save, and then it gets punched home. And then just like a totally broken play off of like a set piece where somebody just manages to be on side and they, you know, there's like, I mean, it's kind of a weird moment.

And they win two one. and they go on to the Champions League final. You know, it's like it was the just result because Real Madrid was the better team, but it's not because they didn't score because they were the better team. You know, the ways they scored were lucky, kind of, you know? Yeah, yeah.

And minutes before they got their leveler, noted excellent finisher, Harry Kane, like missed an incredibly good opportunity. So it's like if Byron had just managed to get even luckier and hit two goals on their two chances. Right. So yes. That obviously all factors into it.

But again, it'll be dreadful if we crash out of this tournament looking like rubbish, right? Either either in the group stage because we just look terrible or if we just go in and get absolutely panced by Brazil. Like we shouldn't go out there and look like we have no idea what we're doing. Because that wasn't even in the case in the Netherlands loss. Like we didn't look like we had no idea what we were doing. If that happens, if we get, you know, the second half of the Germany friendly for 90 minutes in the Copa in any match against anybody, that'll be a get Wilford-Nancy in situation. Yeah, yeah, that'll be time for furiousness. Yeah, get Rhino in. Get Rhino or Wilf.

So sort of a throwback question. It seems like there's a little bit of an agenda here based on the location of the questioner. but Steve from Minneapolis asks, what's worse weather? 100 degrees plus humidity in June or July for the Copa or minus 2 degrees Fahrenheit in St. Paul in February. Greg, what's your answer? Oh, man.

I think you take the humidity because you can always slow the game down, find extra breaks within the soccer game. You cannot escape the minus two. You can't escape the minus two. 10 windchall. Yeah. I'll go the other way.

I think minus two is better soccer weather. Slightly. All right. All right. That's fair. Because you get warmed up, you know. You get warmed up as you're running around.

Maybe you reach a point where you actually relatively comfortable out there. Yeah, that's like the delirium you get right before your entire body shuts down. They call the death zone in the Himalayas. Well, yeah. neither is ideal. Let's admit that. Okay. Mike in Orlando, what sorts of player rotations would you like to see and why within the three group stage matches with a focus on ramping up to the knockout rounds?

Greg, you want to take a swing at this one? So I want us to basically be playing optimally for goal difference. So I don't want to see necessarily like rotation for rotation's sake in the group. stage. So that means, like, if we know who our two best centerbacks are, we play them. Like, if you have a personnel matchup that you like better in a game for the opponent, go ahead and switch. But, like, I don't want to just be like, well, let's give Mark McKenzie a minute.

You know, let's give him a start to, you know, because it's believe it. Like, I think we got to play the best team we can for each game. I think the timing of the games is such that you can get away with doing that and not be exhausted going into the knockouts. but you also just need to monitor a player output. So if we are in a situation where somebody is getting exhausted, then you might have to sacrifice a little bit of like, can we actually top the group to we have to make sure we're not dead on our feet going into that knockout match?

Because it's going to, no matter who it is, it's going to take everything in a knockout match. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess my big hope is that we can get a bit of a lead in both of the first two games. I mean, this is famous last words right here. But we'll end up needing a last second own goal against Bolivia to even get a draw. I mean, we're not above any of that.

But yeah, I mean, I guess hopefully we can go, like, we can rest some players towards the end of those games, particularly in the midfield, particularly the, maybe the full backs. and, you know, have them fresh or fresher come knockout round games. So that's where I'd like to see rotation. Make Scali eat some minutes at the end of some of those games,

if, you know, if Way is the starting right back. And, yeah, I guess that's what I'm looking for. I think that's probably the right math. And to not go all out, like, chasing goal difference, like, oh, we can't, we can't pull. pool of a game just in case

we can add another goal against Panama. And again, this is the best case where we're already winning 3-0. Like, again, who knows if we're

to be in that situation? That's all lofty talk. But even if we are up 3-0, it's like, yes, I'm sure it's better to just like pull guys off, rest them, take your chances of actually

beating Uruguay to win the group. And again, who knows, maybe if Brazil and Colombia kind of finishing a draw, you might end up trying to win the group trying to try and so hard win the group and getting Brazil anyway. Like there's at least a chance that happens.

So yeah, so I think you're probably right. I don't think you should just play purely on like score goals at all costs to win the group. I think it's got to be, there probably does need to be some energy pragmatism. It's a tough balancing act though, because what if you're up to zero against Panama then they get one back in like the 85th minute, then you're starting to be worried. Are there any... Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

No, you got it. Are there any specific rotations that you want to see in, like, Copa, where you're like, we need to, you know, make sure we get, uh, haji in there or any specific rotations for opponents? My thought is, we're going to experiment, I assume, a decent amount in the friendlies. Um, given the fact that we're playing teams that we will play again in the knockouts, most likely. Uh, it just seems like that. exactly where you don't necessarily even play exactly what your plan is. Right.

You kind of do a lot of laboratory work. Yeah. I mean, it's really nice to have Malik Tillman because, you know, even though it may not, you know, his success this last year may not translate to this level of competition, it might. And even if it only partially translates, he's wonderful to have as, you know, back up to. Or maybe he's even the starting left winger, you know? You could even start with Pulisic on the right wing, him on the left wing, and Gio Raina in the midfield. And then you got Tim Wea at right back.

I mean, I'd be thrilled to see that. So I guess for specific rotations, I think the Haji Malik sort of option sort of lends itself to rotation, you know, like you can switch those guys off and on. and in the midfield I think probably I would want to start with depending on Tyler's health Tyler, Wes, and Gio

and so Gio is probably not going to be going 90 minutes in any of these games so you're going to have to rotate him out probably for Eunice I guess and then get Tyler in for Johnny I mean Wes getting exhausted by

July 6th is a real possibility. So we've got to be careful about that too. Yeah. Yeah. So the permutations are just just about infinite given the desk being gone. Right. So everything comes with caveats like, well, he might even be starting it right back rather than, you know, his normal position. So you can just, there's an endless number of rotations that I'm expecting to see. And I kind of just welcome almost all of them. Like I'll be, if Brent, if Brennan Aronson is starting as one of our three

midfielders, I'll be like, this one maybe is a little much. But otherwise, like, roll Johnny out there to start. You know what I mean? Like, Tyler probably isn't 90 fit. Johnny could be better than Tyler anyway. Like, let's see what happens. We got, so I guess I don't want to experiment for experiment's sake. But there are so many lineups you could put out there that you could be like, no, this is just what I believe is the best lineup.

That we are never going to be able to, we don't know for sure. that they're not, you know. Right, right. It's going to be, it's all at this point so subjective because we have so limited, so much like, so few reps as a group that any of these combinations could hypothetically be the top, the top combo. Right, right. It's exciting to see.

I mean, as we like to say, these are good problems to have. There's a lot of good options for how to line up. And then that, of course, like you're saying, dictates what the rotation possibilities could be. Klosterfer in Richmond, Virginia, says, looking at the Copa knockouts, which of the favorites do we match up the best and worst against with no more injuries and a reasonable level of tactical flexibility from Greg?

Let's say that Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, and Colombia are the favorites for the term. Those are the favorites, according to the betting markets. I'm going to say it's Colombia that we match up best against, just because I think the other three are just way ahead of us. Columbia also

are going to be really tough to beat, but I think we want them. Like I said, they beat Brazil at home in World Cup qualifying in November, but that was in the cauldron of Barranquilla and that whole storybook thing with Diaz. I know people are saying Brazil is some people are saying Brazil is down

a little bit, but that is just not persuasive to me at all. I mean, even if we're talking about their midfield, they have wingers that aren't even called up that are just absolutely terrifying.

And, you know, Venetius Rodrigo, Rafenia, and then Endrick, you know, this might be the summer of Hendrick. He's gotten his first, he's gotten his first two goals, one against England, one against Spain

for the national team. he's heading to Rayo Madrid this summer. It's like, I don't want to play Brazil unless, I mean, I do want to play him, but. Right. I hope we do get to. I want it to be in the semi-final, right? Yeah. Yeah, I would be ideal.

Which, again, even thinking about how that's possible, it would either mean that we do the business against Uruguay, which would be already an amazing thing, to get Colombia who would be presumably second place. Or it means that Colombia gets finished ahead of Brazil, which even then, even with that suggesting that maybe Columbia is better than Brazil, you'd still walk in Columbia, right? Like we'd be like celebrating on the last day of that group stage if somehow Columbia is finishing ahead of Brazil. Yeah, then beating Brazil and finishing ahead of them

or finishing ahead of them. I guess we'd want them to beat Brazil in the group stage because then all of their, you know, they would have used up all their energy before they get to us. Mental, emotional, physical, yeah. Then we get them. and we get them on the flip side. Argentina kind of explains itself as a team we don't want to face,

and wouldn't face, of course, in this tournament, unless we made it to the final. Well, I'm still going to, I'm still going to, like, be really picky. It's not that we don't want to face them. We're just talking about who we match up best against. Yeah, yeah. That's the question. Because, again, we want, I want to win, beat all,

I want to play and beat all these teams. Nations League's getting dull. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, I got to be careful. how I say that. I mean, Uruguay is just so, so tricky to break down. I think maybe we match up worst against them of all the teams. They've beaten Brazil and Argentina in World Cup qualifiers in the last 12 months, both at the Bombinera and then at home against Brazil. And, you know, they just don't give up anything, even against Argentina. Like a few shots from distance for

messy, you know, some set pieces here or there, but they're, they're just really hard to score against. And then, you know, they've got the players you know about, of course, Darwin Nunez and, you know, Federica Valverde and Ronald Arajo at right back, all playing at really big clubs. But the one who always pops off the screen when I pull up Uruguay footage is Fekundo Pellistry, the one who, he's a Manchester United player who never has. really broken through at that club. And he,

I think he was on loan at Granada this last spring, had two goals, two assists for a team that was relegated. So you're like, well, how could he be good? Well, he is, like, really good. He creates a lot of their danger in these, at least in these World Cup qualifiers I'm watching. So, yeah, long answer, but I think we match up best against Columbia.

Yeah, give us Columbia. We earn it or we get a little bit of a luck from the other side of the bracket. The other side of the bracket, the other group. Right. BC and Denver asks, is there a plausible scenario which could get Greg fired after Copa America? I think there definitely is. I mean, it's at least possible that the brass for you a soccer are nailed on to Greg Burhalter. But I don't have any reason to think that's the case.

You know, I don't, I don't think there, again, after what they went through on the women's side, with Vlokko winning games leading up to the World Cup, and then having, like, the worst World Cup performance the U.S. women have ever had, I think they will be extremely, like, cognizant of, you know, taking a underperforming side and manager all the way to the 24th. 2026 World Cup that we're hosting. We're lucky to do so. Yeah, I mean, when you have this much of a runway to make a change, if we are, again, if we are a shambles in the group stage against two relatively weak teams in Bolivia and Panama,

I think it would be, I honestly think it would be like a no-brainer. Yeah. To move on. I, yeah, I would think if we got grouped and looked bad, that would be that would that would that would be grounds for firing I whether that you know again whether that is going to happen from the brats at U.S. soccer I think is a question I can't really answer but but everything that they've done so far for me shows that they're they're making like pretty rational sporting decisions so again I know there's there's a contingent

who is adamant that Burrhalter shouldn't have been rehired and should have already been fired since his rehiring. And they kind of describe like a program that is an absolute crisis. But I'd say very obviously our program right now is not in any kind of a crisis. Like based on the last measuring stick we have, which is the World Cup, these baby measuring sticks of winning the nation's leagues since the World Cup, you know, the program is fine. If we are, if we have a shambolic process group stage in the Copa, that is enough, I think, to tip it towards like this is this is a bit crisisy we can't have this kind of a performance at the

world cup so we need to try to find somebody whose floor is above uh catastrophe against weak teams right in in like real situations i agree with that i do think it's it's unlikely that we will come out and look shambolic against bolivia and panama i just don't expect that at all. I think we'll probably look fine. We'll probably finish second in the group and probably losing the in the round of 16 to, I mean, yeah, is it the round of 16? The quarterfinals

against Brazil, like I said earlier. And then I don't know that that gives us any new information on whether Greg Berhalter should be kept or fired. You know, it's just kind of like that's who we are. But. So what would you do, Bell's if you're the rational mind that's had a ton of success running U.S. soccer for the past two years.

Because, again, there have been a ton of successes for U.S. soccer over the two years. Like, just signing dual net, like key dual nets coming aboard, reconfiguring the Nations League that suits in a way that suits us better, landing Copa America in the U.S. like, I don't know, again, I don't know, I'm not trying to give sole credit to the head of U.S. soccer for these things. But they're overseeing a string of successes here. if you're this person who's making these sound decisions and we get to the expected spot to Brazil

and we are an absolute disaster against them, then how do you approach it? Absolute disaster against Brazil. Which, I mean, you know, if Vinny and Rodrigo eat the right things for breakfast that morning, it could just be a disaster no matter what, you know? I don't know. Well, and that's the distinction I always make, right?

Like, I've been adamant that I don't think the Netherlands loss was a disaster of a performance. I think that was a decent performance. We're the worst team. We were less lucky than the better team. And when that happens, you could easily run into a 3-1 score line against a team like that. But I'm just saying, like, so you could lose, you know, 3-1 score. 3 to 0, 3 to 1, and not have it be a disaster of performance. You could also lose 3-0 and have it just be an embarrassment.

And so that's what I'm curious about is if we are embarrassed, we are thoroughly dismantled if we show no sense of a plan on either side of the ball against Brazil or Columbia or Uruguay. Then what happens? We get pants against Uruguay in a dead rubber-ish group stage game and then get pants against Brazil. What happens? How much sunk cost do you think there is in the Burrhalter tenure? You know, like when you're faced with this possibility of firing him,

say we have this disastrous performance against Brazil, and you're the rational person in charge of U.S. soccer, and you say, we should fire him. Like, what do you lose by getting rid of him in terms of like the relationships with the players, the... you know, what's already been built. Because I think, just to let me make the question even longer, I remember after we lost a Panama away in World Cup qualifying,

you said there is no, like, there is no value to the project right now. There's nothing we could to be lost if we got rid of Burrhalter. And I think that was true back then. Is it still like that? I mean, to an extent, yes. I feel like, again, amongst certain factions of U.S. soccer, I feel like we would be considered like huge Burr-Halter fans. And I'm really not.

I really do think international managers have a very low bar to be doing an acceptable job. So it's like, call in the right players, get them reasonably organized in roles that make sense for their individual attributes. And then you're just hoping it's all tiny sample size stuff. we play so many games where we're the much better side and then we flip over to games where we are the important games we are the much worse side. So in that sense, I don't think that Burrhalter is like the one guy, the one and only guy who can be doing the job that he's doing.

There's definitely a risk when you have the experience we have with him we know he has built a culture that the players enjoy and appreciate. We're not worried about mutinies, which again, those are real things. it happened in international soccer up to the highest level of teams. It's not just like way over here in the terrible teams. Like the best teams have these things happen to them. At World Cups.

Yes. Yeah. So like we know we're not going to have that kind of fiasco in the World Cup or hosting. But I would be, I'd be like disappointed if U.S. soccer felt like he is the only player or the only manager who sort of guarantees that. Like, I feel like they'd have to know that they can find or feel confident that they can find somebody who won't be that, like a disaster of a coach. So I think Burrhalter is also very replaceable. Right now, there just hasn't been really any impetus to be like, we got to, we got to get somebody new in here.

Yeah. Okay, well, if we look disastrous against Brazil, I'm, yeah, I'd get, I guess I'd get rid of him. I'd be, I'd put out some feelers. Like, you got to have a plan in place is what I would say. I don't know how discreetly we can be doing this. But like if we are, if we're a disaster in a knockout game, I feel like it's like, all right, let's, what else could we do? Could we get, could we get like, how do we feel about Wilford, Nancy?

Would he, would he show up here in October or November whenever the MLS season ends? Because there aren't really that many games after the Copa that we care about. So we have the luxury of waiting. Could we get, could we get Rhino? Would he, would he take a call? You know, again, the other thing. about Burrhalter is he's getting paid peanuts. Like he's getting paid like, what, one and a half million?

And so if your program's not in crisis and you're getting that done for one and a half million a year, that's better than risking it with for Rhino at six million a year. Like you might not get that much of an improvement and you'd be paying five times or whatever, however much more over the course of the cycle. But if we, if you think that Rhino could be an improvement, then it's like, all right, we got a, we can, we can spend seven million bucks on this. and then we give Emma 7 million, too. Yeah, right.

Rhino being Pellegrino Moderato, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Hoff and I manager who's done. Yeah, who brought them to Europe. Getting to Europe changes every couple of years as they just add European slots. But yes, it's a top half finish with a, you know, they're not spending trillions over there. Let's do two more questions and then get out of here. P. Thomas 1995 from North Carolina asks, what do we think happens if Wea goes against Vinny Jr. at right back.

Curious because Laos seems way scarier from the eye test. Does Vinny outperform underlying numbers, or can he also get those clamps from Timo? I think Vinny is just as scary as Laos. and a more dogged competitor from what I can tell. Like he's just a gits after it. Relentless. So I find him utterly terrifying.

I do think Timmo can rise to the occasion, though. I believe in him. I appreciate your optimism. I think I feel, I am just as optimistic about Timo as I am for any other American player that we would put in that position, including Serenio Dest, when it comes to,

when it comes to, like, shutting down a player of that caliber. Clamps is a bit too much to hope for, I think. But survival, I think he can survive out there and mostly, mostly neutralize him on a good day. Well, I'm sure.

He's going to still create some stuff. I'm sure we'll have plan, like I'm sure there will be a plan to, you know, shade help over to, to whoever is filling in the right back, shade help over to that. side. You know, we saw it, we use Alfonso Davies as the blueprint in that Nation's League game where Scali and Brenda had to do it together.

The obvious difference is Brazil aren't Canada. So when you shade help over to defend Alfonso Davies, it's like you can do that because then the rest of the guys that aren't Alfonso Davies are Canadian. You can't just like commit a bunch of numbers against Brazil and just be like, I'm sure they won't find where we're open elsewhere. Right. They totally will. I mean, you shade over to cover Vinny and then you got Rodrigo running rampant on the other side. And I mean, those guys can score in so many different ways and create in so many different ways. It's like it's not just that the teammate is on the other side is Rodrigo instead of, you know, insert generic Canadian. It's like Vinny and Vinny and Rodrigo are just way more cultured players than, Alfonso Davies, you know? It's like, they do all kinds of different things.

I mean, to bring the 2009 discussion full circle, that second half of the Brazil final, when Brazil put three on us, like you did just, you just saw the levels of thought and anticipation and that sort of four-dimensional thinking and action. Did you just tip your cap at the television? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like you knew. Down at the Royal Mile. They scored their first one. You're just like, yep, yep.

And then I think we're bringing like Sasha Clestion into the game to try to get it back and just like, nope. Yeah. Probably not going. I'll do respect to Sasha Question. I don't mean to that sounded harsh, but, you know. Someday. Someday we'll bring somebody more persuasive off the bench in a game like that. Bluff City Baby in Memphis

says aside from the overage players who from the Olympic roster is closest to inclusion in the first choice senior team he says I sneakie think it's Taylor Booth given the dearth of great B team wingers I'll say yeah maybe Booth but I don't think anybody is particularly close I'm still holding

some Brian Reynolds stock because I think everything is there for him except that little bit of kind of commitment and alertness. He's not there yet, but nobody is from this group. The others who intrigue me are, well, you know, everybody intrigues me. I guess I won't shout out any names. I thought for sure that was going to be a chance to plug Testament, but it'd be, so it'll be peppy if peppy gets cut, obviously, but yeah, tons of them, not tons, a few of them,

Paredes and Tessman could maybe like find their way in to the roster, but none of them seem like they're particularly close to being like impact players. Sorry, I've got a, I agree. One squawking. One last question. It'll be really quick. Andrew, Andrew in Cedar Rapids, Iowa says. Sorry. Hey, Wellsey, here's a deal.

We decided you can stay down here for this last bit if you can be quiet. So can you curl up in your blanket over there and then be super quiet? Thank you. You've got to be the quietest you've ever been. You've got to be an egg who hasn't hatched yet, okay? Dinosaur egg, but you haven't hatched. Yep, I will. Just a second. You just, wait, no noise. If you make any noise, we can't play. Find a way to be quiet. Andrew and Cedar Rapids. Last question. Andrew in Cedar Rapids, Iowa asks, if either of you were the coach, how would you designate the non-penalty set-piece takers? I'll say I'd designate Raina as the set piece taker. I'm the same. Let them take them all. To corners, direct free kicks.

I'd maybe let McKinney whip the ball. No, you can't let McKinney whip any balls in from the flanks because he's got to be the guy attacking his head. So yeah, it's a geo, right? Yep, that's what it is for me. It's going to be Pulisic at the Copa America. Hey, thanks everybody for listening. Thanks, Greg.

We'll see ya.