Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #538: Evan Ratliff on USMNT fandom, AI voice clones, Brek Shea

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

Journalist Evan Ratliff joins Belz to talk about his fascinating new podcast, Shell Game, which has some poignant USMNT-related moments in it. He also expresses his affinity for 2011 Brek Shea, talks about going incognito to a WC qualifier in Salt Lake City when he was doing the famous WIRED vanishing act, and explains how he thinks the USMNT is in need of a couple Clint Mathis or Jermaine Jones-style characters.Here's the Grant Wahl story he referenced: https://grantwahl.substack.com/p/on-the-doorstep-to-doha?r=1ggkr&utm_campaign=post&utm_source=On%20the%20Doorstep%20to%20Doha&utm_medium=iosAnd here's the link to Shell Game, which I do recommend: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/shell-game/id1753117762 Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Scuff podcast where we talk about U.S. soccer. Hey, we have a special guest today. His name is Evan Ratliff. First of all, he's a long-time USMNT Sicko, who cut his teeth believing Breck Shea would lead us to the promised land. And is a patron of scuff, so thank you for that, Evan. But also, he's a serious journalist, a longtime contributor to Wired Magazine, writes for Bloomberg Business Week, author of a book called The Mastermind, and most recently has a fascinating, six-episode podcast called Shell Game, which is both hilarious and disturbing in its exploration of voice clones and how they might soon be entering all of our lives. Evan, how are you?

I'm doing great. I'm very happy to be here. How are you? I'm pretty well. Rainy day in North Georgia, but we needed the rain. Now, there's a very recent USMNT connection in the show that's actually pretty prominent in the last episode. And that's kind of why we're sitting here today. But first, before we get into that and your love for Breck Shea and how you're feeling about Potch, let's set that up. So just so people can understand, I'm going to play this clip that comes up in the last episode, but people aren't going to really understand it unless we set it up with some other

things. Yeah. So can you just explain what a voice clone is and how one can deploy such a thing? I think most people will know what chat GPT is and how phones work and stuff. Yeah, so basically I was kind of messing around with AI technology, as many of us do. You know, people play with chat GPT and that. I got a little bored with it. And then I discovered some people may know that you can clone your own voice.

And there are a number of companies that will do it now. You can do it with a few minutes of audio or you can do it with like a lot. I have a lot of audio because I've done podcasts for many years. years. So I made a professional grade clone of my voice. It sounds pretty good. It's quite variable. Sometimes it sounds exactly like me. Other times it sounds more robotic. And I hooked it up to a phone line, or many phone lines, and chat GPT. So chat GPT determines what it says in my voice. It kind of powers it. It's like the quote unquote brain of it. And then I started like making and receiving phone calls with it over a period of like six months, including like with telemarketers, including

with therapists, real therapists, AI therapists, which are also a thing, AI voice therapists, my friends and family. And the latter one is kind of where the U.S. soccer connection comes in because this was happening. I was making all of these calls right leading up to COPA and during COPA and like my set of friends who are many of them also big U.S. soccer fans. Like naturally the thing that we would talk about are these games. So that's kind of, so when you hear it, it's me having prompted this, what is called a voice agent.

I prompted my voice agent to basically call my friend and kind of like talk, you know, hype up before the game. Like games coming up. the normal things that we would talk about before a game. But then it just does it on its own. Like, its responses and everything, it's happening all in real time with chat GPT, kind of like running it. Yeah, it's pretty crazy.

Sounds a lot like you. It doesn't sound exactly like you, but pretty close. The customer service reps at banks and credit card companies and then the scammers and stuff, some of those conversations really got me. Like, they're pretty funny. The earnest way that digital Evan kind of deals with those conversations.

Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's imperative is just to continue the conversation, basically. So number one, it's always, almost always, like, extremely polite. And I would, I would prompt it in all sorts of different ways. So if it was calling customer service, I might say, whoever picks up, like, have a customer service problem and, like, work it out with them. And it's able, you know, if Comcast answers, it's able to then say, it'll just make it up. It'll say, my cable's out, you know, and then try to work with them, but it'll make up account numbers and things like that. So that when I was first testing it, I would often have it make

those calls. But then I set it up so that it would receive spam calls and scam calls, and I, like, seeded the number out in the world. And those are amazing, because those are people who are, like, they're trying to take your money, and it's just very helpfully agreeing to everything that they ask for. It'll talk for half hour, 45 minutes if they want. and, but it can never, like, consummate the scam, which is part of what makes it funny. Yeah. Well, let me play one of those clips because this is a scammer who's calling with a prize from Publishers Clearing House.

Thanks for reaching out, James. No, I haven't received any such call or details. It seems like there might be some confusion. Okay, and is this your first time receiving a call from the company? Actually, I may apologize. No problem at all. Pardon? No worries, James. I was just saying that this is indeed the first time I've heard from the company.

Okay, but did they send to any notifications letter in your mail to inform you that you are a second-place winner? No, I haven't received any notifications or letters about winning a prize. It looks like there might be some confusion here. Okay, because, okay, it is said in the computer here that you are a second-place winner. All right, and you will be receiving a total of $5.5 million. All right, and also a brand new $2,024 Mercedes-Benz that is registered under your name. Okay, and I'm also seeing a bonus price for $25,000 every month for the rest of your life. That's $5.5 million, $25,000 every month for the rest of my life and a Mercedes. All right, so what I would like to know is would you like to move forward in, get in the

information and how you could claim your prize. Wow, that sounds amazing, James. But I think there might be a mix-up here. I haven't entered any contest or received any notifications about winning such a prize. It's probably best to clear this up and find the right person who actually won. Just a little bonus of $25,000 a month for the rest of your life. And he's not interested at all. He doesn't even...

He doesn't want it. No, not only that, he wants to find the real winner. Like, can we put our heads together and see if we can figure out of it? out who really won this prize. But the amazing thing is the voice agent is very unpredictable. So if you just listen to that, you'd be like, wow, listen to the integrity that it has. I didn't collect that prize. The exact same scammer, I mean, those kind of scammers call all the time. And the exact same type of scammer called again. And the next time it was like, I have my pen and paper ready. I'm ready to collect the prize. So like it's not actually thinking through any of these

things, it's just sort of like predicting what I would say or what a median human might say in this situation. And sometimes it goes one way and sometimes it goes another. Why the unpredictability? What's going on there? Like technologically. I mean, that's kind of what I was trying to explore is that, you know, you hear a lot about AI. There's so much writing about AI and, you know, a lot of people like, can it write your emails and will it replace our jobs? And I was really interested in this sort of conversational version of it because I think there's going to be a lot more of that in the world. Like you're just going to start hearing it all the time. These artificial voices that sound pretty close to being real. They get better and better. I mean, OpenAI just released a new

set of voices like a day ago that are even better. And so it just gets, it does get better and better. But like, what does it feel like kind of to have these in the world and what do they do? And one of things they do is they will make stuff up. And what they make up is completely unpredictable. Because basically they're adjusting all of this training data. And then they're using that training data to say, well, in this situation, given the context of what I'm receiving, this is what a person would say. And like, it's not always the same thing. Like tiny variations in what they take in can change what comes out. And also they have a very strong imperative

in this conversational way to keep the conversation going. So they'll never say, I don't know the answer to that. If you ask them a question, they'll come up with an answer. And it's kind of different. It's one thing when you're typing things

into chat, GPT, and getting responses, but it feels different when you're talking to it. And it's doing that. It's unsettling the way that it would lie about stuff, like the pen and paper.

I have my pen and paper ready or... Oh, yeah. And it'd love to have kind of like physical attributes, too. It would make up physical attributes. One thing it had trouble with was phone numbers. It could not like really come up with a believable sounding phone number. This is a really short clip-up play. And then we'll get to the, we'll get to the Copa America here in a minute.

But listen to this. Uh, Mr. Aidan, may I have your associated phone number to your account? My phone number associated with the account is 555.5. One, two, three, four, five. Five, five, five, one, two, three, four, five. Yes, that's correct. The complete number. You're right.

My apologies. The full number is 555, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Okay. Sure, in your ass and enjoy your day. The scammer was not pleased by that phone number at all. That scammer was not, not happy. But also, the funny thing is, I mean, there's a whole world of people who like waste scammers time.

It's called scam baiting, and they make him do stuff. And I think that's what he thought I was doing, which in a way I was, but I don't think he realized that he was not actually speaking to a human. It was wasting his time with these made-up phone numbers, but also it could have gone on forever because it has no concept of time. Speaking of going on forever, the one other thing that was hilarious is the conversation between the two Evans later in the series and how just their cheerful, endless small talk

and making plans together to go on like a photo walk. And then they couldn't end the conversation with it. They could not, they just kept saying goodbye over and over and over again. What's that about? That was, so I sort of had the idea from the scammers because sometimes I would get scam calls from AI scammers. The scammers are also using the same technology. So then I thought, oh, when they talk to each other, like, that's just profoundly modern and strange to have these two AIs talking to each other.

But I realized, well, I can just have mine call each other because they had different phone numbers and they could just call and talk. And so I would tell them, well, just converse with, you know, your friend who picks up and, like, talk about what's going on in your life. And they would each be Evan Ratliff. They had my family member's names. and they would sort of like talk about their family and the other one would talk about their family, but they would never come to any realization that that was strange.

They would never say like, wait, I'm Evan Ratliff. My children have the same names. Isn't this crazy? That is no chance of them ever doing that. But then also, I mean, it was more of a technical issue that like these platforms that I was using to kind of like create these voice agents

at the very beginning, they didn't have a setting to turn, to make them hang up. Like, basically, if you didn't explicitly tell them to hang up at certain point, they would never hang up. And so they just, they go on for like five or ten minutes, just saying goodbye to each other over and over and over again. And it's kind of hilarious and then eerie and disturbing. And they come up with slight variations on how you say goodbye, but they just keep going

and going and going. And actually, that moment when I heard that tape, I was like, oh, I have to make a podcast out of this. It was that that kind of made me think. Really? Well, other people need to hear this. Yeah. Something about, you talked about this a little bit with Pablo Torre on his show, which is one of the, I'll get into that, but one of the comments on that show is what sort of triggered are getting together.

But how much is the insipidity, is that a word, and agreeableness of these guys, I'll call them, a function of like the guardrails? on the models and how much is it just how, you know, robots are? Because, let me say this, because it's sometimes listening to Digital Evan, talk to people, it wasn't that different from just like listening to somebody who doesn't really care about a conversation, kind of go through the motions, you know? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a combination. Well, I mean, of course, part of the issue with these systems is that they're being used everywhere but I mean, not only are we not made aware of what's actually happening inside of them,

in many cases like the creators of them don't fully understand what's happening inside of them. So I don't know the exact answer to that question. My theories are that there are these guardrails around them that they put in to basically, you know, they put boundaries around them so that they won't do, you know, give you bomb instructions or do horrible things. and I think there are also boundaries around the stuff they can say, you know, you can't make them, you know, use slurs and things like that. And I think the same, the spirit of that kind of leads them to be, I'm not saying I wanted mine to use slurs or provide bomb recipes. Of course not.

Yeah. It kind of gives them this sort of like boundary of niceness around them that they tend towards. That's my theory. But then the other thing is the way that they're. created with all of this training data is that they're trying to find sort of like the predictable answer. And if you think about it, in a conversation, a basic conversation, probably the most predictable answer is the most mundane, like the one that is used in small talk all the time. So if they've ingested a ton of conversations, they kind of end up at the least, most of the

time, the least interesting conversation. So like, you know, if you don't tell them what to say or what their parameters are they would say, you know, how are you doing? And the other would say, like, I'm still living that Florida life. And then one of them would say, I can really feel the humidity. It's like a conversation you would have with someone in an airport or, you know, they're like an extra an airplane or something like that. And that's where they end up. But then they also can get quite quirky because they make stuff up. So if some, if one of them says, like, what's your hobby? And then you haven't explicitly given it to hobby, a hobby to answer with it, it would say, like, I love geocaching. And it's like, that's what mine would say.

It just talks about geocaching for 10 minutes. Yeah. It is disturbing to me how many real-life conversations are like that, though. You know, it's not just in airports. Like how often people just talk like chat GPT or write like it. You know, so it's hard to tell the difference. I mean, it was kind of a, it felt like an indictment of me to listen to it. Because in listening to it, I thought, well, this is incredibly insipid,

but also this is literally what you never hear recording of yourself just small talking with some other parent at the playground and like that is what I sound like and it kind of was like at least temporarily I was like I'm going to work harder in these conversations because I don't want to sound like this I bet you that's not what you sound like I don't think that's what you sound like I mean I don't know you but I mean I do my best all right so now that we have kind of an idea what's going on here. Let's get to the USMNT stuff. The YouTube chat on your show with Pablo said something that you sent along on Twitter, and I'm deeply offended by it, but it said, quote, he's clearly AI if he likes US men's national team. What the hell? What's that supposed to

mean? I don't know where this person came from. Absurd. Unbelievable. I mean, my guess was that this is one of these people who, like, after Burrhalter got rehired, was like, I'm not going to watch the team anymore. Like, I'm done with this team. And now they just go around and comment on anyone who's a fan and say. Or maybe, actually, maybe it's an L.Trie fan. IA. comment. It could have been just a boss.

Right. Who knows? This is a long clip, but it's going to be, I think it's going to be just incredibly recognizable to the listener, the tenor of it, the content of it. This is your AI. clone calling a friend of yours the day of the Uruguay match right?

Copa America. Everything on the line for the U.S. that day. Digital Evan is stoked. Here we go. Hey Warren. Are you pumped for the game tonight? What? I asked if you were pumped for the game. What, wait, what do you mean?

Am I pumped? Is there a game tonight? I'm just kidding. Yeah, of course I'm fucking pumped. Last month, my voice agent called my old friend Warren, right before the U.S. men's soccer game against Uruguay. Warren's a big fan. I'm a big fan, which I guess means my voice agent is a big fan. Ha-ha, I love the enthusiasm.

Yeah, this game is huge. That's the joy. That's the joy of being a real men's national team fan, is you always kind of believe that this is going to be the time when we're actually really good. Usually we're not. But then sometimes we are, and that's what makes it great. Absolutely, man. those are all part of the ride. And tonight's one of those nights where we really feel like

it could be different. I hadn't told Warren about my AI clone. I hadn't told most of my friends. I just tried calling them with it, one by one over several months when the right moment struck. Yeah, I'm glad you're feeling that way. So many people are so down. I mean, the Panama thing, I watched that game. It was unfortunate, but, you know, even a man down, we were pretty good. Yeah, exactly. If we had managed to get that second goal and pulled off a draw, the entire narrative around the team would be so different. I mean, U.S. fans will know. This is a pretty standard conversation.

Warren and I are long-suffering supporters who retain our optimism. But I'd only prompted the AI to be excited about the game, not irrationally exuberant. What's funny about the conversation that we're having is you're speaking in these bite-sized chunks that make it sound like maybe this is an AI conversation. Ha, ha, that's hilarious, Warren. Maybe I'm just practicing my job.

dramatic pauses to keep you on your toes. But hey, AI or not, this conversation's too good to stop. So I want to know, you must have given it more prompts than just to be enthusiastic about the game. I knew that we didn't get a second goal against Panama, right? Yeah. Yeah, I gave it a little, it was probably like a few paragraphs of kind of like, you know, here's where I stand after, you know, after the first two games.

Like, here's what happened in Bolivia, here's what I think about that. here's who I think could have a big game tonight. You know, I think I was like, I think this is Moose's time. You know, like, I think he's going to come through for us. And I wrote out some things for it to, like, draw upon when it went in. Because I wanted it to last as long as possible before Warren determined that it wasn't me. And so it had to have some information that would, if it didn't know anything about Bolivia or Panama, like, it would be screwed if it said something about playing Jamaica or whatnot. So yeah, that's typically what I would do.

I would sort of like write like a two, three paragraph prompt and then set it loose. And it's calling from my phone number. So when he gets this call, like, he fully would think it was me. Why would you not? Like, he didn't know that I was even working on this. How long did it take before he figured it out? It took longer than that clip. I mean, they had a little bit more back and forth.

So it probably took just like a minute or two. I mean, with most of my friends who I have known for decades, you know, It would just give itself away in some way, either through, like he says, like the way it's, it's like responding to every single thing and sort of repeating it back to you a little bit, or it would mispronounce a word, or it would sound too enthusiastic. Like, it had all these ways that it could be detected as not me. Totally, yeah, yeah, yeah. The other U.S., I'm not going to play the clip, but the other thing that's U.S. related is there was a conversation with another friend of yours who was at the

the hotel, right, in Dallas for the pre-Copa, one of the pre-Copa friendlies? Or no, was it just before the Bolivia game? It might have been the oblivion. I think it was Oblivia game. Yeah. And that part, man, I don't know if it's also the context of just how poorly the U.S. performed at the Copa that I think affects my emotional state in this whole thing. But that part is really sad because he, well, maybe you should explain it instead of me.

Like, how did that friend react to Digital Evan? Yeah. I mean, this is like the part of the show that I hear about from people most, I think. It's like people being like, oh, man, that was painful to listen to. So if you can imagine, like, a bunch of friends with the group chat. And basically one friend took his daughter to a volleyball tournament in Dallas. And he likes watching the U.S. Like, he'll always watch it with me, but he's not like, he doesn't follow all the ins and outs.

So he started texting the group chat saying like, hey, I think you guys know these guys, and it would be like, Weston McKinney, like, sitting in the lobby or, like, his daughter with, like, Polisic, you know? And we were like, oh, shit, this is amazing. You're staying in the same hotel? Like, they have a game tonight. And then he, like got tickets and went to the game. And so there was a ton of chat chatter about this. And he kept sitting after the game. There was like an after party after they won. They were all hanging out in the lobby. Sent a ton of photos from that. Just all good vibes, great stuff. And then I had my AI call him some. a couple weeks, it was maybe like a week later because it was before the Panama game. So it was in the interim there. And he, he, the one of the problems of the AI would be, it would be very enthusiastic in a kind of earnest way. And so it had prompted it to say like, oh, he's been sharing these photos, like asking about the photos, asking about the hotel.

And it started doing that. But he kind of interpreted it immediately that I was like giving him a hard time about saying too much about it and being like, oh, wow, you're really. could you send more photos? You know, it kept making it seem like, and he did not perceive that it was the AI, because he kind of got into a mode of like, oh, why is my friend being so sarcastic? Like, why is Evan talking this way? Yeah. And then it kind of gets darker and darker because then he thinks like something's wrong with me. Like I've had basically a mental break. Yeah, he thinks you're losing it. Yeah, he's trying to like talk me through it. And the way the AI will respond to everything just encourages

it because he'll say something, he says something like, like, you know, I'm confused. And it just says, I get it. You know, it's like so. I get it. Yes. And then it pauses for long periods of time. So anyway, that part of what I was trying to do with the show is show what it feels like to interact with these things, with these sort of like AI voices that are semi-autonomous in the world.

And that was the most poignant probably example of like what it feels like to be talking to something that's not real and not actually realize it. He obviously gave you permission to use the clips in the show, but is he, was he a little upset with you about it, about the whole thing? He was, I mean, we've been friends for 35 years. So he was, I mean, he was upset by what happened. I mean, he's told me, he listened to it. I talked to me the other day. He's listened to it like two or three times. And he's like, I sweat when I listen to it. Like, I'm fascinated by what happened, but also, like, I still find it upsetting to get, be put back in that mode. But most of my friends, like I've done a number of kind of like, or at least one other like big, strange project like this where everyone's kind of like, oh, well, this is that thing. That thing that you do. Yes. Yes, I disappeared 15 years ago. Which also has U.S.

Men's National Team connection. I had like a minor, I feel like I was like a minor character in like U.S. Men's National Team fan world briefly. Because when I did the story for Wired where I wanted to see what it was like to disappear and have people. people hunting for you. So like not quite to go off the grid, but to like vanish and change my identity. And so I did. I like left and you could win $5,000 if you found me. And I went all across the country. I sold my car. I changed my identity. I got a new name. I moved to New Orleans. I rented an apartment. But there was a U.S. World Cup qualifier that I wanted to go to at Rio Tinto in Salt Lake. It was against El Salvador. It was an important qualifier. So this is 2009.

for the 2010 World Cup. And so I decided to go, but also, this is kind of a long story, but like all the people, all the people had access to, like, all my information. Because it was supposed to be like, if people were hunting you and they had access to all your calendars, my email, my credit card information, like, if I used my credit card, people would know. And so there was someone at Wired who was like doling out information all the time. So on my, I had put that game on my calendar.

So I was like, I'm going to go. but they also knew maybe I was going to go. So I bought a bunch of plane tickets to different places, like refundable plane tickets. And then I had one that had a stopover in Salt Lake. I went. I disguised myself in like extremely elaborate ways, including painting my face and wearing a wig.

And there were people hunting for me outside the game. Like standing outside of the stadium. Yes. Like looking for me. because you win five grand. So, like, if you lived in Salt Lake and you're like this, and it started getting a lot of attention, like I was on CNN and all these other things. I remember it.

I remember it being a thing. Yeah. People went to some extremes to try to find me, but I had like shaved my head, pain in my face. And like, I got in and out of the game, which we won safely. And then like back to New Orleans. But then in the end, spoiler from 15 years ago, I got caught. I got caught in New Orleans at the very end. Okay.

Yeah. Can you, I mean, the project's been out there for a long time. How did you get caught? I got caught partly because I have celiac disease, so I have to eat a gluten-free diet, and I was going to go to this gluten-free pizza place. At the time, there's only one gluten-free pizza place in New Orleans. And so the owners of the gluten-free pizza place essentially were the ones who caught me. They found out about the someone who, there were groups of people all over the country who were looking for me. and someone contacted that pizza place and where it's like, he's going to go there. Like, you should look out for him. And they, like, made an active effort to, like, find me. And they did. Very cool, though.

The conversation with Shafe, shout out Shafe, he's a good sport. Sheaf. Was dark. Those were dark days. And we're still not completely out of them, as U.S. fans, I would say. But we do have a world-class coach. How are you feeling about that? So they say, so they say.

I feel good. I'm excited. I mean, if you get me started, like, I was not a Burrhalter hater, personally. I was probably in, like, a very small mind. I didn't think they'd hire him back, but I... You and Waki are his biggest fans, I think, probably. Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate his perspective on it. But, I mean, so, but of course, like, I'm very excited about Pocitino.

I do think there's a part of me because I have some complaints about some, of what I view as the more recent U.S. fan approach to the game. Like, I think it's going to be really funny if he calls in Jordan Morris. Like, that would be, I would absolutely love that, just to see how people would react. Because, like, if you think, like, world-class coach, he's going to call it all the players you want. But, like, when he calls him some MLS players to check it out, people are going to lose their minds. Yeah. No, they totally are.

It's going to be hard on some prominent Twitter accounts. it's totally not out of the question, too. I don't know about Jordan more specifically, but I mean he's a good shout. Do you have flashbacks to the Cleansman era a little bit? I mean, it does feel pretty different, but... It feels... Yeah, a little bit.

I mean, it feels the same in that I think there is some belief that we're going to go out and find the coach who's going to, like, do it all for us. who that's what we need is just someone to like tell these players where to stand and what to do and like that's just not my view because I've been around for a really long time and like you can do all the player comparisons 2002 you know versus now and you know I love doing that stuff too but it's just like objectively like it's not like these players would like get in like we have

like one maybe two definitely one maybe two players that would get into the England squad, maybe two? Like, three if you really want to push. Like, I don't, I mean, I don't remember their, like, exact left back situation, but like, like, Anthony Robinson, like, legit, like, most teams want a player, like, like, the dude is, like, bawling every single week. Like, yeah, yeah. And then, like, I don't know, Serginio at his best, but, like, he's not going to make

it into the England squad. So, like, we drew England in the last World Cup, and people are, like, mad. Like, we, like, we should beat them. And all we need is the best. best coach. It's just like, I don't know, if you've been around all these years, you just, I have a different perspective, which is like, if we were to beat England or one of these top teams, it would be like incredible. It would be like versus Portugal in 2002, just like a miracle and so much fun, but it doesn't make me mad that we don't, you know? So I guess I'm just excited. I'm excited to see

what team rolls out and like formation, all that stuff. Like, I'm into it, but I'm not like, I, yeah, I think I agree with you. I was trying to talk about this on a recent episode where, like, there's a cycle to fandom a little bit where, you know, if you've been watching for 20 years, you said you've watched like basically every game for the last 15, 20 years? For sure, yeah. Like, I mean, including friendlies.

Like, I've probably seen every maybe one or two I happen to miss, but like probably since like 2002 even. So you're like a, you're a certified sicko. Like you're, Yeah. Deep. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I have a particular, like, I don't know, I find it joyful. Like, I will love that we're underdogs. Like, that's my favorite part. So it doesn't upset me. There's plenty of things to be upset about in the world, and I feel like this is not one of them for me. Yeah. Greg, I wish Greg were here, because he would love that. I mean, that's sort of been his, you know, his point to make for the last.

several months, I think. Let's just have fun with it, you know? Especially if you, like, I don't know if you'll remember, but something like, I was looking up like the 2009 Gold Cup final. You remember that? We lost to Mexico five to nothing. And if you look- Santos had that like incredible, that incredible goal where he checks. Howard, or not Howard. But also, it wasn't Howard, though. It was like Perkins. Like, it was like, if you look at the roster and then you look at the roster now, like, how could you ever complain? It's like, no, I mean, I love those guys, too. Like, they did their best, but we're talking about like J. Heaps,

like, Davey R. No. Like, I can't, I'm, I'm certifiable and like, I can't remember who some of these people are. Yeah. Connor or something. Connor. Yeah. Logan Paws. Do you remember him? Like, we're talking about, now you've got like, I mean, all I'm saying, is like I feel grateful. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen a 5-0 loss of Mexico. Yeah, gold cup final. Yeah, so like losing 2-1 to Canada, like I was bummed.

That wasn't a good effort. I was mad. But only for like an hour. Yeah. This is good for me to hear. Which team is better, do you think? The one we have now? I think I can guess your answer, but the one we have now or the 2014 World Cup squad?

I don't know I mean I've 2014 I mean 2002 this debate's been had recently I would definitely say 2002 2014 I don't know I think it's probably like pretty even

like I have a whole I mean this might bring us to Breck Shea like I have this whole like what I want on the team I want there to be like one player who's kind of like I don't know just like a different kind of dude with a different story, different approach.

And like we had Jermaine Jones. Like, Jermaine Jones was that guy where you're just like, whoa. This is just like a different dude. Germany doesn't want this guy? Like, we want this guy. And he's sort of like, to me, like uniquely American. Like nobody else would have a guy like this. Yeah.

And we've had those guys over the years. Like Clint Mathis in North Georgia, I played high school soccer, I think, against Clint Mathis. So that was a long time ago. But like we were the same era. but he was one of those dudes, like, just like built different,

thinking different. And so 2014, all I'm saying is like, we had Jermaine Jones, and like Clint Densy was always one of those guys. And it also happened to be like our best or second best player at all times. And I just don't,

I feel like we don't have one of those guys right now. Like we don't have a guy. You don't think Sergenio is, I mean, he's not the, there may be some things he's not like Jermaine Jones in, But he is, I would say, build different. He is.

That's true. I love that about him. But I feel like his, I think you guys were talking about this on a recent show. Like, he's just kind of turned into strange direction. Like, it's not like he's like, he's like booting the ball into the stands and getting a red card. Like, that's not exactly it, although, you know, that is different. That's a different way to get yourself thrown out of the game. And maybe he, maybe he's.

Maybe he's that guy. I mean, he is strange. But, like, Waki's always doing, like, noting some aspects of his strangeness. So I do appreciate that. Yeah. Hopefully, we can, hopefully his strangeness will, you know, fully flower over the next two, three years. Yeah. Yeah.

But I also, I love an MLS guy. Like, people, the idea that we have fans who are like, oh, my God, he's calling an MLS player. It's like, I want to be a couple of those. I want some of those some scrappers. Yeah, just like, you know, I couldn't believe they didn't take Ariola. Like, I went to a qualifier in Austin, I think it was Jamaica, and we won two nothing.

And you go to the game and you see like Paul Ariola on the field, and he's just like, you've never seen someone work harder at something in their whole life. I was like, I don't know, I love that guy. Like, oh, he doesn't have the skill. He doesn't play in Europe or whatever. I don't know. I want a certain type of

person on the team, that's what makes it the U.S. team to me. If we have all kind of like elite European players who are like, I mean, in some cases riding the bench or playing in the championship, that doesn't to me feel like elite in some way that I'm looking for. And it'll be fascinating to see it will be cool if Pocitino calls in some MLS guys. I understand you've had a small role in the whole USMNT fans are toxic debate. I have. Can you talk about that?

which was anonymous, but I will reveal it, which is that, do you remember when Grant, Grant Wall wrote this story that set off a lot of this discussion about whether fans are toxic? I think he wrote it from Mexico City. He was covering. I remember he wrote about it, yeah. And he wrote it on his substack. And it starts with like him saying like, I got an email for my friend of mine who's basically like, and it's like a paragraph of talking about how the fans have become very toxic. And that person was me. Like, I was the person who initiated him to write that story. I mean, I didn't actually think he was going to write a story.

I was just like sending my complaints to my friend Grant. But one of the best, if not the best soccer writer we've ever had in America. And he turned it into that article. And then like the next day, I kind of like opened up, you know, Twitter and was like, whoa, oh my God. But of course, none of it was directed at me because no one knew it was me. But I was kind of... At the time, I was like, I'm staying out of this. But now I feel like it's fun to reveal. That's my bit, bit, bit part. It's still pretty toxic. I mean, if you thought it was toxic back then, it's probably just as toxic now, right? Yeah, I think so.

although, I don't know, are people going to find a new thing to be mad about? I'm sure they will. Like, it was the coach before, like, change the coach, you know, per halter this, per halter that. So now are they going to turn on the players? Like, I have some of those big accounts, like, you could see how quickly they do turn on the players. And it's just like, I don't know, why are you a fan of this? That's my question. Like, what is this giving you in your life? And I think it's probably just, well, I have a couple theories if you want to hear them. I do. I do want to hear many theories about this. But I mean, partly it's just like online people are looking stuff to be mad about. And so sometimes it's politics. Sometimes it's this.

Sometimes it's Elon Musk or tech or this or that, whatever. So that's, it's always just, there's going to be angry people. But also, I feel like there's maybe a little bit of a generational thing in terms of when I, I mean, I'm in my late 40s. So like, when I was a kid, like, I played soccer, but we couldn't watch soccer. Like, there was no, like, there was no place to watch it. Like it wasn't on TV except for the World Cup. And now you have a lot of people who, they start watching soccer, which is great. They get the Premier League, which is great. Of course, I love all the access to the Premier League. And they're like, I'm going to be a fan of Liverpool. I'm going to be a fan of Man City. And then they watch those teams and they think, well,

that's what soccer should look like. Right. And they watch the U.S. and they like, it doesn't look like that. And they have some understanding of like our players play for good clubs and things like that. And then they say, oh, well, if we just had the coach, it would look like that. And it makes them mad. Like, we're not trying to be elite. Whereas if you came up this other way, you're kind of like, I don't know, Christian Blissick scoring a goal like that is, like, unbelievable. It's just like so exciting. It's totally unprecedented. We're talking about the goal from Sunday. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess not totally unprecedented, but largely unprecedented. in the history of U.S. soccer, you know, for one of our players to score a goal of that magnitude

and a game of that magnitude. Yeah. I had some, you know, it's exciting to have him on our team, but I don't think, but also, like, would he play every game at Man City? Like, I think we know the answer is no, because otherwise he would be there, you know, he would definitely, he could be on the roster, but no other U.S. player could be on that team. So would you look at that, I don't know, there's something about people who, I just don't like people who feel entitled. I think that's what bugs me. And I feel like,

I call it Premier League brain. Yeah. If all you watch is Premier League, you think that's what all soccer is like. And then they, you know, they're so quick to discard players, like a good player

who, like, doesn't have a good, like, half of a season. He's, you know, he's shit for the rest of his life to, like,

all people who watch the Premier League. Yeah. Yeah. But then, like, you get out of that? That's the thing. Why watch sports? You know, especially soccer, especially international soccer, where even asking the U.S. to compete against these teams that have legacy and history and unbelievable players, it's like, it's a big ask, you know? So,

I always feel like, let's have fun being the underdog and not feel entitled that if people saying, like, if we don't make the semi-finals of the World Cup, it's a disappointment. Like, are you kidding? You're talking about? Yeah. Like, that, we almost did once, and it was glorious. And, like, it would be again. But also, like, I'm going to go around crying if we lose in the quarterfinals of the World Cup. That would be really fun. I'll be happy if we make the quarterfinals. Very. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like U.S. soccer will, too. It sounds like that's their. That's the goal. That's their goal. Anybody, well, let me just be specific. Have you heard of Cabins?

Sullivan yet? Yeah, of course. Of course. What do you think? Have you seen any of his clips? I have seen the clips. I mean, I'm deep, man. I'm more on the train of like Carol Figaroa, the guy who plays for Liverpool in

their under 21s now. I think that guy's got an outside chance of maybe show up in the World Cup Squad. I don't know. But that's one of those like, you know, you never get to see him play. you're just like read something. He scored three goals in an under 18 game and you're kind of like, oh, that's my guy.

He's got some really impressive tools. Yeah, go ahead, sorry. Well, anyone who kind of like lived through the Freddie Adieu era can't get too, you can't get too excited about it, you know, a teenage phenom. But it's all, it's all very exciting. You never know.

Yeah, I'm more into, I'm on, as I think I said to you at some point, I'm on Diego, Diego Luna. like Diego Luna to me is one of those guys like one of those special guys that's like he's just built different he's yeah and I feel like

I think of him as the American Shakiri and like he's very lovable I mean you know did you know that he worked at Dutch Bros for a for a minute like as a I read that yeah

as like a basically just for fun because he would just to meet people while he was a professional soccer player. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we should have a place for a guy like that. I don't know why he got kind of frozen out of that Olympic team.

He was, yeah, I don't know. I'm not that big on the Taylor Booth, Paxton Aronson, train myself. Like, I hope they do well. And I'm sure they're going to have long professional careers, but would have much rather had a player like Diego Luna there. I would have to. I'm mad about it, Evan.

You're mad, but that's where you avoid the toxicity is you just, I was, that was the closest I came to being like, what's going on? Like, this selection makes no sense to me. But like, all right, well, maybe they're right. And I'm, what do I know? And I still thought there were moments when it would have been nice to have him. But mostly, like, I want him to get called up to the senior team. Like, I want, I want them to get this guy involved.

Yeah. And he played in that friendly against Bosnia. Is it last January or the January before? It might even have been last January. Yeah. Yeah. He was pretty good. Yeah, he's fine.

He had some moments and like, it's a tough, that's a tough time to like show yourself. But like, I don't know. I'm just always rooting for guys like that. It'd be fantastic to have a, like, what is he, 22 now? 22 year old who looks like a 40-year-old trucker with neck tattoos as like one of our creative sparks on the attack. Come on. Yeah. It'd be awesome.

And don't you, like, don't you remember from playing sports? Like, there was always, like, some person that would sub on, you know, that you'd be like, oh, man, this guy? Like, now I got to go up against this guy, you know? And I want us to have, like, a couple of those guys that are just kind of like, oh, I don't know what this guy's about, but there's something about his look, you know, he's got knives tattooed up his neck. He's just like, I know, what am I getting here?

That's what I thought we were going to get with Breck Shea. Yeah, so when did you realize it wasn't going to work out with Breck? you know? I mean, I'm going to get the timing wrong. I should have looked it up, but like I feel like he could have. There was a World Cup team that I thought he was destined for, which was maybe 2014. And then he had some small injuries, and then he had some, you know, issues on various teams that he was on. But like, go back, go back and watch.

There's this goal he scored for Dallas. when he was, I don't know, he must have been 20, 21, 22, where he just picks up the ball, like, in his own half of the field, and just heads straight through the middle. I mean, the defending is very suspect, but in, like, 30 yards out, he just lasers it into the top corner without breaking stride. Like, it looks like he just flicks it with his foot. And the dude's, like, 6, 3, 6.4, fast.

Like, I just thought, like, they're just going to turn this guy to number nine. He's going to be the best number nine we've had. and this is why like I'm not a paid even a paid sports journalist like I don't even do sports journalism or analysis or anything it's I just nobody knows nobody knows anything I mean you know that right

but yeah I feel like he got he had some bad luck they don't they don't kind of tell these guys what to expect like they need a training course for when they go over to Europe I mean Eddie Johnson too is another example of that like you get some guys like playing in Dallas grew up in the U.S., and then suddenly he's at, like, Barnesley, and the fans are like, you're shit, you know, you're garbage, and he's just like, got himself tossed off the team by gesturing of the fans.

Again, though, like a big character. I feel like you, do you see that guy coming at you? You're concerned. It makes an impact, yeah. You've seen that picture of him with those like purple Aladdin pants on, too. Yes. Yes, I have, yeah. And the photo when he was holding up two guns that also got him in trouble.

Oh, yeah. That was very American. Yeah, not allowed to do that. Not allowed to do that. Basically, I like a wild card. I like a wild card player that might not be everyone else's selection. I like it. I like it.

Luna is kind of the guy. Serge, maybe if he adds a little bit more edge and less sort of, Chaos. I mean, you want a little chaos, right? But you don't want, you don't want stupid red cards. Yeah. What about Brandon Vasquez? What do you think about him? Why does he never get? Seems like he should get a chance. I mean, his feet, I don't want to get too, you know, in the weeds. I feel his feet aren't that good, like, in close quarters. But he does score a lot of nice goals. He's still doing it. He'll get him back. I feel like you guys should have a call-in show. These are all the things. I just want to

want to ask you your opinion on many different things. We do. We do call and shows on the Discord. You know that, Evan? Oh, I didn't know that. After every game, if you're a patron, you just jump in. Which I am. All right.

I'm going to get on there. Yeah, get in there. What else? Anything else? No, I'm just, I'm excited for these games. Yeah. I think the team building part, which I'm sure Burrhalter was attendant to. is really important.

They got to figure out how to sacrifice for each other. It definitely doesn't seem like they crack that. I mean, in the old days, it would be kind of like, you're not as good until you need to, like, hustle. I mean, I'm not saying this is what they said to them, but, like, there was a feeling of sort of like, we fight, we hustle, like, we run, and that's how we beat these teams.

And now I think Burrhaler did try and did succeed, but it was a little more like, no, you're, you have the talent, you have the skill, we can play with the ball, we can hold the ball. So like successfully instilled that, maybe almost too much so in some cases. But like, now we're missing the other part of it. Yeah. Which maybe is also has to do with like, again, like having a player or two who that's their thing, you know, they're pushing everyone to be that way. I don't know. Maybe it's just simply has to do with, like, again, like having a player or two who, that's know. Maybe it's just simply has to do with this, which we've talked about a lot,

is the gap between a team that is content to be the underdog, to let the other team, you know, have the ball and then just like try to run and fight and win to quote that Seattle Sounders supporter group guy. But, um,

and the gap between that and being like a protagonist team. I mean, it's just a huge different. It's totally different. Everything about it is different. And Brawter, I think, tried to move us across that chasm. And maybe that's what happens. We just lost the...

We're not good enough to actually be that against really good teams. And in the process, we lost some of the grit. Yeah. I think the concerning thing, which many people have noted, is, like, we don't have qualifying. And, like, some of that, I feel like, that grit came about because you had to go to, like, El Salvador and play and try to get a result and it was like vicious and nasty and we're just going to be playing a bunch of friendlies for the most part between now and that and then you'd suddenly

have to turn it on. Yeah. At one point. So that concerns me a little bit, but I'm always optimistic. So I feel like coaching, it could make the difference. They'll all be excited, right? I mean, they'll be excited. No, they're really, they should be ready to go.

And it wasn't J.T. Batson saying the other day, we're going to get a bunch of good friendlies because everybody wants to play in the U.S. before the World Cup to sort of get acclimated. Oh, that's a good point. Yeah, I didn't see that. Maybe. Hey, everybody, listen to Shell Game. It's good. And, you know, Evan, we'll have to get you back on again sometime. Thanks for doing this. Oh, my pleasure. You know, I'm always, I'm just talking to my friends about the same stuff, like all fans. So to have you guys, you have me on to even give an opinion about the US-Messational team, it feels like a special moment for me. Awesome.

Yeah. Hey, thanks everybody for listening. I'll put the link to Shell Game in the show notes. It is really, it's really good. We'll see you.