Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #573: Nine things we've learned about the USMNT in 2025

Episode Date: March 6, 2025

Bob Morocco, the longtime friend of the pod and multi-decade battle-hardened BigSoccer poster, joins Belz and Watke to discuss the key takeaways from the first two months-and-change of 2025 Anno Domani. Pulisic's level, Johnny's status, Poch's (dis)regard for Atlanta and Richy Ledezma, and much more to discuss. Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the scuff podcast where we talk about U.S. soccer. Hey, everybody, we're going to talk today about some things we've learned so far this year as we head into one of the few meaningful national team windows that we will get before the 2026 World Cup, the Nations League semifinals and finals in Los Angeles. Coming up here in what, two weeks? I've got Waki here with me, and we've got a special guest this time, not for the first time, and hopefully not for the last. It's Bob Morocco.

How are you, Bob? Hey, gang, doing good. It's thought out here. We're in the mid to high 40s, so I busted the shorts out. Good. He's talking about Montana. It's funny how that works. Like, when it's really cold all winter, 40 degrees does feel balmy, doesn't it?

Yeah, and then how they just lured their toughness over us, these northern people? Yeah. Yeah. Something to be impressed by. You just live in colder weather. It doesn't speak to you as a man. No, it's impressive. No, I don't agree.

I don't agree with that one bit, Adam. It thickens the blood. Yeah, I feel like I've lived on both sides of this coin, and I still, I'm impressed. You know, I will tell myself that when I lived in D.C., I used to love walking around in the winter just wearing my suit. Oh, because you were a poll as a politician out there in D.C. on K Street and so forth, weren't you? Exactly.

You know, speaking of K Street, there's a very distant possibility that the U.S. would play a round of 16 match on the 250th anniversary of Independence Day. Did you guys know that? Did you realize that? I did not know that, I don't know. No, I just learned it. I mean, it's pretty, uh, it's a pretty big anniversary. The semi quintennial. Yeah, I can't even, I can't even pronounce that word, but yeah.

The last anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. Yeah, 250 years. At that point, Rome was only halfway through its Republic era. Man, I thought we were going to catch him. I thought we had them. Well, you're not going to get them. One way or the other, we're not getting them. But we had a good run, and I'm proud of the work we've put in.

It gets there's different ways to look at it. We have a lot of civilizational rob. yet to come is one way to think of it, think of it, you know? Yeah. Or maybe we're just not going to catch them as the other way to think of it. What have we learned? What have we learned about the men's national team? I'll start.

Patience pays off, but not always on the timeline you wanted. For instance, Sergenio Destin, Fuller and Balligan are back on the training field. But it's not in time for Nations League. not even on the preliminary roster, the 60-man roster. So we just thought we needed to be patient and they'd be there for the Nations League. But we misunderstood, I guess, the nature of time, the power of patience. We overestimated it. But you know what?

We saw that the Earth has a way of providing us with other options. Here springs up, Sergeant. And I won't get into the other right-back options because it's one of our learning things. I don't want to step on it. Right. Sargent's in great form. That is wonderful news. We've talked about it, I think, quite a bit.

What do you make of sergeant's performances lately? How much do you discount them, Bob, because he's in the championship? No, I think it's great, you know, something I kind of track with guys who have sort of injury issues is how they come back. when a guy just like comes back and looks like they barely missed a beat, it's always hard, man. Do you worry about, I mean, you know, Chris can be mad at me for sort of wet blanketing things, but do you worry about the windows that the windows he's getting are just going to be a little bit tighter, even against Mexico and Panama?

And so he won't be able to get that shot off, make that turn, find that pass. With Josh, he's still unproven as a goal score at that next level. And all he can do is bang him in where he is. You know, consistently perform, consistently contribute, like look sharp in the windows you have. Hopefully a guy has a great mentality where they're like, don't let up and they're not playing down to the competition. And, you know, Josh is, there's still some uncertainty there. but I feel good about having him his depth to fill in for guys who are injured. It's like maybe the best depth we've ever had, talking about third-string striker.

Where does he, if we were to put him in the rank of historic strikers? What range does he fit in between? You know, it's really tough because he's missed so much time. like most of his time was when he was a teen or in his early 20s. He's barely played over the past couple years for the U.S. You know, if we're just going off a club career, it is like a little under Josie. Dutch League probably when Josie was there was still better than the championship.

You know, his only chances in a top four league were on two really, atrocious EPL teams and then half a season as a teen in Spain. I think Josh

was as good as Josie at around the same age in Spain. Josie has that international career that's stronger

than Josh, but Josh hasn't gotten the looks. Just hasn't scored any goals. Yeah, people are trotting out like how many

days it's been since he scored when it's in like game time it's been a handful of games. So you're saying he was as good in Germany as Josie was in Spain. And then adjusting for you know, England. Both air times in England were pretty similar. Did you say the era de Vizzi in Josie's era? Was it as good as the championship is now or not? I always thought it was better.

I thought, you know, the inexorable power of economics had not really fully taken hold. The Dutch leagues was, you know, they've dropped below the Belgian League in terms of average salary. And, you know, the English League might have been paying a little more the championship. might have been paying a little more when Josie was there, but the superior Dutch methods and talent they were attracting and tactical know-how was better, at least, you know, from when I was watching in those days, the middle of the league seemed much better than it is now.

Yeah, interesting. I mean, because the top of the league in the area of physics today is obviously way better than the top of the league in the championship. But hey, let's go to the next one. Over to you, Bob. What have we learned? Sure. So what I think I've learned is I think we have the makings of a centerback partnership

for the rest of this cycle and possibly the next one. You know, this is really surprising to me. Like Richards, he showed well in Germany and he showed well for part of a season in England. and then it got a little dicey. He was a little off the boil with the U.S. team, had some issues with playing time. But Palace seemed like, was it Trevor Shebel. Chalaba, I think.

Chalba, seemed like he was preferred over him. But since Chris has been back, Crystal Palace have been on fire. Since the beginning of this year, I think they've had about the second best performances of any team in England behind Liverpool in terms of the chances they're creating versus allowing. And then, you know, the surprise part is that Mark McKenzie has adapted so well in France. Yeah. That is a surprise, isn't it?

Yeah, because you and Vince were tracking him pretty closely in Belgium. And he wasn't doing that well. I mean, he was playing, but. Impressive intuition, though, to keep doing that. Yeah. I mean, what else can we do? We were in desperate straits, and we may, you know, people may turn on Mark again, don't you think? I mean, he's not totally out of the woods.

I mean, he goes and adapts in France. Yeah. What's to stop him after that? Yeah. The most concerning thing with him in Belgium is that it just seemed like he completely flatlined and stalled. I've watched him play probably a half

dozen games worth of minutes this year. Seems from the clips and those minutes I've seen that he's been more consistent in France, that he's taken that step up with the step in competition. Centerback

is so much about consistency that, you know, seeing it for two-thirds of a season, that's something. little bit like, I mean, he's not a player on the level of this other player, but it's a little bit like what Wes did going from Shalka to YuVe. I remember being surprised that he was going to, that he was, that YuVe wanted him, you know, even though I loved Wes's game. And then he, uh, he rose to the level of his new club. Yeah, they were, they were surprised they wanted him.

And now he's the captain. Yeah, that's great, that's great news on the center back front. it really is and it is surprising good point Chris what's the next one Pocitino doesn't like Ritchie Ladesma at least not as much as we do and he certainly doesn't have enough emotional attachment to him to not even find a way to put him in his 60 man

that's a real punch in the gut there for us disrespectful not much emotional attachment at all there sure Marlon Fawsey come on in No problem. George Campbell, come on down. But we don't want a battle-hardened Champions League right back in our 60-man roster? I'm not going to say potch out, but...

Well, I'm getting close. It is a... And maybe this preliminary learning, he really values the eye test of that January camp. A bunch of those guys got in. Could be insight in mind. out of sight yeah we don't know for sure

he knew who richel dezma was do we have direct potch quotes on richie I know we have like tom bogart filtered you know chronology maybe potch just doesn't want

any more game playing you know we are the we're the USA we're massive Richie's not playing any games he doesn't he doesn't speak Spanish

I mean, hasn't he been floating this thing about a passport? Like, he didn't say that, didn't he say that on the broadcast? No. I don't know. It's not that big of, I mean, obviously, it's not that big of video. It is funny, though. I obviously, I'm a joke at this point for my soft spot for Richie,

but he has been, I think, pretty good. It's not like he's not playing so badly at right back for a team that's in the Champions League that he should be, like, completely, you know, banished from the pool. I mean, am I out of line there, Bob? No. Like, you know, he did get kind of done for at least when I saw yesterday against Arsenal, where he was a little slow-to-cover return run and got cut on the wrong side.

They did lose the game seven to one. I mean, yeah. Basic decency has him on the 60-man roster. Yes. All right. Next thing. I mean, Potch doesn't like Richie. That's where, that's what we've learned, at least one of the things we've learned.

We've learned also that Tim Wea should start at Right Back later this month. Tim is playing excellent soccer at Right Back for Juventus. Arguments can be made. He should be on the wing for the U.S. I have made and probably will in the future make that argument. But without Dest around and without Richie, of course, Tim should be the guy at right back for the U.S. SM&T. Scali lads are up in arms after that, though. Yeah. Bob, what do you say?

I mean, I, you know, I got, I had scolded today by a lad for my anti-Scaly comments. What was saying that he was average? If Pulisic is healthy, I will agree with you. I think definitely in that first game, I would want someone who is more attacking than Titt. You know, my Sorry, then Joe, yeah. And Tim definitely fits the bill and, you know, he's standing up really well on both sides of the ball. This season, of course, you know, he's also had one of his better attacking seasons when he's been given starts and attack. So I just feel good seeing him on the field

And for me it's kind of a little bit about like Who is going to be around him I guess it's easier to say this with Vince not around But you can put You can put Musa at right mid right wing Essentially It has been Musa in some of these games To sit a little bit deeper

And function more as a right mid fielder than a right wing. Tim can get up and down the line, do a lot of the same things he does as a right winger for the U.S. historically. And then you're able to get Moose on the field and Gio Raina, so you have a lot of your best players on the field. I guess we assume, is he going to get Gio Raina on the field? That's something we haven't learned. We've learned that Gio is not going to have a renaissance in the first two and a half months of the year. We've learned that for club. Yeah, yeah, we've learned that he can be praised for doing like replacement level amount of defense,

a professional coach once from an attacker. Which is new. We hadn't recently seen him praised for that. So it's progress. Yeah. There's just no game changing. I mean, I'm like the biggest geo fan on the planet. and I just don't see any game-changing impetus.

If he's not going to do that, but then he will do it for the U.S. I think he probably will. But we haven't learned that. What's the next thing we've learned, Bob? Well, I think we kind of touched on this. I was going to say, I think, you know, that Potch has just fit in perfectly into the U.S. soccer deep state.

He's just, you know, he's filling the bottom half of that roster. with just retreads, January camp losers, all the hated, you know, like Nepo Babies, DEI hires that all the righteous justice warriors out there. Yeah. Want to see up on the real parts. He's tying them and knots out there. It's a tough to build enthusiasm from that wing of the fan base right now.

because of the deep state. Sure. Yeah, we need, you know, like, they need to, their coping game is not strong. They need to be thinking that this is part of some five-dimensional chess move by Potch to, like, prove that, you know, players who, you know, they don't hate are better. And so far that narrative has not taken. can hold, not until today, not until here and now. And that's what Pach was doing with Shaq Moore.

Okay. That's what the Ritchie thing is. They need to tie this all together. Wake up, people. Wake up. I'm trying to count how many of the 60-man roster are from MLS. And it's over 20. 27, nearly half.

nearly half of the prelim is from MLS. Sure. Potch couldn't spend time scouting all the good players. He instead had to coach a charity match with YouTube streamers in Saudi Arabia or something like that. No, he can't do media days. Yeah. I don't know how that ties into the deep state thing, but someone will figure it out. Well, it ties into my next learning, which that Potch was never actually going to live in Atlanta.

when he told us he was going home shopping he just got swept up in the emotion he was always going to be balanced between London, Spain Argentina going to his favorite restaurants catching up with old friends taking his dog's hands on a walk I think he's doing the right thing there I don't have a problem with that

he's not living in Atlanta I live you know I live two hours north of Atlanta as do you Chris it's it's certainly a better city than the one I live in but if I was living in London, I don't think I would want to move to Atlanta. No. It's fine.

It's a fine city. It's a fine American city. It's huge. It has a huge airport. I would think London is better. Do you think you should have gone to that media day? Oh, the one where it was like he got replaced by Gooch. Gooch.

Yeah. And they were talking politics up there. He dodged that one. Maybe you got the heads up. Jesse's going to go off. Jesse was going to pounce on him. He didn't want anything to do with that. I don't really care if he was at the Media Day or not.

As long as we play nice-looking soccer and, you know, win and make it to the semifinals of the World Cup, nothing else matters. I think that's a reasonable stance to have. Kind of wish she was going to the Media Day, though. Kind of wish she was going to live in Atlanta. Wish she was in Atlanta. I wish he was torn around doing a little road trip.

Yeah, I wish you was going to Holman and Finch, Antico, you know, The Optimus, and some cocktails. Coca-Cola factory, aquarium. The next thing we've learned is that Johnny Cardoso is an undisputed top five midfielder for the U.S. I'm taking for granted that Wes, Tyler, Gio, and Eunice, are one through four in some order, probably that order that I just gave. But we were not totally certain on the fifth. There'd been talk of Tesman, Morris, Bouscio.

Not anymore. We've been kicking a lot of tires. Kicking so many tires, kicking them over and over. And I'm going to keep kicking the Testament tire. Tires. So I think there's something there. So undisputed at this exact point in time. Yeah, he's probably going to stay clear of Tesman.

I mean, if you had to bet. Yeah, he has, you know, he has a track record of being genuinely good in a top four league. And Tanner's track route is like a handful of starts of being competent. Right. No, somewhat suspect against the ball, you know, looking fine, good enough to start. for a decent team in Ligon. Yeah, the thing that the thing about it that's that really drove it home recently is that Cardoso was really good against Real Madrid, which counts double.

And he did it with style. He like, he juggled over Madritch. He juggled over Chiuamani. Mm-hmm. He, uh, he scored a goal. It was a really like a thumping header. He went toe to toe with Killian Mbapay, Killian. Mbabe and totally held up.

I mean, this is all pretty big time stuff. Where is he going to be positioned on the field for us when Ponsch runs him out there? This is a Bob Mara. This is Bob Morocco's sweet spot right here. It's like basically just who is always the pivot, who is sometimes the pivot a little, sometimes a little higher up, maybe sometimes shifted to the right. I think Johnny is going to play in either of those positions.

Maybe his biggest shortcoming for the highest level is that he doesn't really have great recovery speed or ground coverage. Not as rangery as Wes or Tyler. So I was thinking like if he's playing next to Wes, he's going to be the pivot. The primary pivot, Wes is going to drop in at times. Wes is going to roam, but Johnny will also push up when we have everyone pushed up. But he's going to stay pretty diligent when Tyler's in there. Tyler's going to ball hawk in transition. But I think then in possession, maybe we'll start some attacks a little more often with Johnny,

but Johnny will then follow play and Tyler will sit and hold. When Johnny begins to start some of those attacks, is that when it starts to look like a double pivot? I just throw around the double pivot wantonly. Is that what it is? What is a double pivot? It's when you have your... two deepest midfielders pretty close to on the same vertical plane in the middle of the field ahead of the center backs usually within the width of the box.

Yeah, I just think of a double pivot as having two sixes, which I know it's more nuanced than that, but two sixes right next to each other. Let me ask you this, Bob, and Chris. would you rather a midfield that has Tyler has the more stay at home 6 Johnny a little bit ahead of him and then push Wes up to be more of like a 10

keep Johnny on the bench have it be Tyler Wes Gio I have a non-tactical opinion about this which is we're just so tied to Gio be successful let's just let's just run them out there.

We've put too much into this. Let's see what happens. Keep them out there. Yeah, it's Panama. What's the worst that can happen? Yeah. What's the real answer? Well, I mean, let me give a little more.

I think if you base it on club, form, I mean, the real answer is you play Tyler, Johnny, Wes. but it's not just that we've invested a lot in geo. I just think he's like you put him on the field in these games. He's going to be a better, more influential player than Johnny. I just believe that. But I'm curious where you think, Bob. Yeah, like right now,

I am a little bit in wishy-washy, it depends mode. What team are we playing? how much do we have to worry about them against the ball? And then what sort of attacking talent do we have surrounding that? So if it's only Pula sick on one wing and Musa on the other wing, and then Wes in the middle with Josh, that's a pretty defensive lineup to go out there in a game where we're expected to have most of the ball and be the protagonist. You know, it's probably like a very physically impressive lineup that's going to

make it really hard for the other team to play against. And we could probably do some really good pressing stuff, but if the other team doesn't want the ball, that doesn't matter that much. Mexico, because they're too proud to, they've historically been too proud to really concede that we're good. They're not going to concede the ball. And we can probably, like, get at them with that lineup.

But against a worst team where, you know, we actually have to be the protagonist. and create. So you need Gio. I like that. We need Gio out there. And my solution is then like West's out wide somewhere, either at right mid or right back.

Geo Polisick and Wea. And Wea could be right mid or right back. If Johnny is as good as his club play has seemed to indicate, you know, that it sounds like Spurs. are going to trigger the clause and they think, you know, it's just a formality that he's going to sign with him. I don't know if he's good enough to be like a top six EPL clear starter right now, but he's an above average Liga starter. Yeah.

He's not that good in the final third, but that's not really what he's for. No, he's just like a box crusher who can make some good runs onto crosses and doesn't lose his head. He doesn't get altitude sickness. Yeah. That's a really good. That's a really important point to be as as commanding as he was in that midfield against Real Madrid. That says a lot, man. That says a lot. He only played 21 minutes under Potch. He was in that window against Jamaica. Came on to help close out the 1-0 win in Kingston. Didn't play in the return leg. Took a knock, right? Oh, that's right. So we got sent home after the...

Okay. All right, that mitigates my point pretty significantly, I think. I'd forgotten that. What's the next one, Bob? I think we've learned this is going to piss people off, that Pulisic is not world class. To be that player, like, you know, I'll go to the man on my team, Mohamed Salah.

Mohammed Sala is going to play like 4,500 minutes this year. He is currently, I think he's, is it Ramadan? I think Ramadan just started, yeah. Yes. So he is playing, he did not have a great game today, but he is fasting and he is still without workload expected to carry and produce. And Pulisic had what they call it. what they called it muscle fatigue.

He's gone, what is it, six games without a goal contribution. He has not looked impactful since the, what was that, the Super Copa? Yeah. And, you know, world class players don't go a quarter of the season, not making the kind of difference a world class player makes. And that's, you know, that's fine. He's great. He's like whatever level is below that.

And maybe it's just that he, when he's fit, when he's not overused, he can have matches and performances like a world class player. But to be a world class player, you have to be consistent, consistently great. And Pulisic has been more consistent this season, definitely than last season, still a match. still a mountain top to reach. Well, it's disconcerning to learn there, but it maybe leads into another learning I have right now that national camp camps are a safe harbor

for Pulisic and will always remain so. There was some idea we'd move beyond that. I thought it was world class until very, basically just now. Now that I know this is wrong, we have to accept that the vicissitudes of soccer will never end, Pugolosik, he's going to need these camps for a respite, and that's great. That's good.

The situation at A.C. Milan is just very, very bad right now. Many of you know all this stuff, but they're 11 points out of the Champions League. Out of a Champions League spot for next season. They're obviously out of Champions League after getting knocked out by Fine Ord. Like you referenced Bob Poole's goal contributions. Hasn't had any since the Ampley match when he came off the bench and got a couple of a assists. Good solid soccer plays, but not incredible assists. And he's going to come into the U.S. camp and he's going to feel great and he's going to play great because it's a safe harbor

for him. You better not miss a penalty. Yeah, he's missed a penalty. He missed his first penalty this past month of his career. What do you call the level below world class? You know, Like top player. I was trying to call it like international class. And it's where you're a game change. You are capable of being a game changer anywhere, but you're not a world all-star, kind of. So there's, no one's really tried to formalize it.

But I think like you just think in terms of you're an above average big, league starter borderline, you know, top, you know, you're probably a top 50 to a top 150 player in the world, something like that. And so, you know, the, like my definition of world class is basically, you know, you're consistently in contention to be to make a world all-star roster. So if, there was going to be a game where there were like 23 guys on each team who are the guys who are going to make that roster. And sometimes there could be more players who should make it. Sometimes there should be less, but that's kind of how I think about it.

And then the guys below that level can have seasons or stretches of their career where they're that good, but, you know, maybe they had some ball going luck in one of them. And that's what got them. They were like Clint Dempsey, I think he hit that level. You know, he had 17 EPL goals. It's still the kind of the gold standard, isn't it? The vicissitudes, man, they're churning, though. Because think of that Super Copa in Saudi Arabia and Riyadh.

comes on I mean he was on the whole game I guess but scores that goal where he goes in hits it with his left foot I mean it's a really nice goal and then that ball to set up the winner what I mean yeah what a pass and you thought

I mean that was a people say well that's just the Super Cup both teams Inter wanted to win that game badly yes and so did A.C. Milan obviously and then to hear Mara Summa's the the way his voice catches when he calls that,

that final goal. It felt like he was, he was on the cusp of world class. And that was what? 70 days ago. Not that long ago. It felt like it was everything. Yet he needs,

like Timmy losing the Oscar, he needs to let this fuel him. Man, they signed Felix. It's not helping him. To have Felix and Sandia, Jimenez. It's not helping A.C. Milan, but it is hurting Pulisic a little bit.

I guess your point is he can't, he doesn't have the physical constitution to withstand the vigors of, the rigors of a world-class CV. Maybe, does make sense. Maybe that's the reason, you know,

maybe this is just a blip in this five-year Pulisic era where, you know, he goes on and makes me, eat my words where, you know, he closes out the season with seven to 15 goal contributions and then gets 30 next year and 30 the year after and 30 the year after that. And if that happens, my point is automatically taken away by Bob eating his words. I don't have to recant because I was just following Bob.

I just want to get that clear now. You mean by saying that... About the national team camp being a safe harbor necessarily. Anything else, guys? I need Potch to stop posting so many pictures of his dog and tagging. I've talked about this so many times he keeps tagging a private Instagram account of his dog. Just say the name of the dog. Who is his audience on this?

His Instagram is terrible. It's bad. He just goes to a restaurant. He tags a chef, then a chef will share the post. He'll reshare the chef sharing it. And he's taking pictures with old friends from like a long shot, 70 yards away. We don't know who it is. We're having to click through the, who's this friend?

We still don't really know. And then the dog thing. And that's really every post. I love a bad Instagram account. I mean, I've had it with this guy. I love a bad Instagram account. It's a form of resistance. No, it's not.

It's unthinking. He just doesn't know what he's doing. Right, which is good. It's good. It's good that he doesn't know. That's all I had. Hey, this is great. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Bob. Yeah. Thanks, everybody for listening. We'll see you.