Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #587: Dan Vaughn joins to talk USL pro/rel, lower leagues, Chattanooga's rivalry

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

El Paso-based Dan Vaughn, the founder of Protagonist Soccer and one of the most knowledgeable people in the country when it comes to lower-league American soccer, joins Watke and Belz for a wide-ranging conversation that often circles back to the CFC-Red Wolves rivalry, geography, and Ricardo Pepi.Relevant links...Protagonist Soccer: https://www.patreon.com/protagonistsoccerProtagonist podcasts on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2VCcvJK493KwhKwDPNt8Cl Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Scuff podcast where we talk about U.S. soccer. Our guest today is an old friend of the podcast and one of the most knowledgeable people in the country when it comes to the evolutions and vacillations of lower-level soccer. He's here to tell us what he thinks of the U.S.L's Pro-Relgambit, whether it will work, what it will mean for soccer in America, lots of other stuff. Dan Vaughn, welcome to scuffed. Adam, thanks for having me. Chris is here too.

Chris, how you doing? I'm doing very well. I'm doing very well. Dan, what's the appropriate... Adam said lower level soccer, I think. What do you prefer the nomenclature for us to... I mean, I've called it lower league for so long, but then you bump into people and they think that's an insult,

and I don't mean it that way. And as much time as I invest in it, I certainly don't mean it as an insult. We were just talking before we started recording about whether you're a pro-relle zealot. Well, no, what happened was I said, I thought he was going to be a pro-relle zealot, but I researched he isn't, and Dan heard that whole thing. Yeah.

He entered the green room right when Chris started to say that. I assumed he was talking about me when I bumped into that, yeah. I'll tell you that I have been covering lower league soccer long enough that I've changed my mind on plenty of things. And not only have I changed my mind on plenty of things, I've sort of opened my mind the idea that no one has the correct answer. It's a combination of things. And we used to joke in sort of the circles that I move in that nuance. It was like this joke because clubs would be like, I'm opposed to USL or I'm opposed to MLS. And then their teams would get sucked into one of those programs.

And all the fans would be like, well, we had to. It was important. And it was like, ah, nuance. Now there's nuance. Nuance for me, but not for thee. Are you talking about Chattanooga there? Listen, Chattanooga is one club in a long history. of clubs that have had to make really difficult decisions.

And I had strong opinions about Chattanooga's move when they did into MLS Next Pro. I still do. But I also understand that I probably had too much of a black and white vision of what they should have done. And there is a lot of gray in American soccer. That's just the truth. And so again, if you go back far enough into my social media feeds, thankfully, I'm not on Twitter anymore, so you couldn't find that anymore, thankfully.

But if you go far enough back, you can find, you know, me with the, you know, the pitchforks and, and the torches, you know, on the pro rel stuff and going hard on people and being aggressive. And over the years, I just kind of, it's not that I've been out on it. It's that it's become cool if we have it and cool if we don't. Like, I love the game of soccer. It's what I enjoy. Um, pro rel is a neat part of soccer that makes a lot of leagues, I think, more interesting, um, particularly matches that you wouldn't think would be all that interesting, become more

interesting. I think it's the same argument if, if you just repackaged it. It's why we argue for playoffs in the United States, because it creates a lot of interesting games that you wouldn't have if you just went with a table. And that's true, right? So you get all these interesting games and playoffs, um, and those games, wouldn't even matter. It would be whoever happened to have the most points at the end of the season and that would be the end of it. I would say Perrell does the same thing, but on the other end of it.

And that's, I think, an interesting mechanism. I think it's cool. I'm excited about USL applying it, but I also think that if they don't apply it, in the end, it's, none of us have control over it. That's where I think. That's where I think. It's like we get so fired up about topics that we have so zero control. You know, I've listened to your guys' pod for maybe as long as y'all have been making it. And I have such strong opinions about the U.S. men's national team and the roster and who's that 23rd or 24th roster spot. We're just arguing going at each other. Why would you choose him? I can't believe it. Or why are you starting sergeant and not peppy? I don't understand. I have strong opinions about those things. But the reality is I don't have any control over it. We do. We are going to need to get your

strongest possible opinions about that 23rd spot. as we get into this? Well, I wouldn't be scuffed if you didn't ask. But before we do that, what do we know about what this USL system is going to look like the pro rel and what don't we know? What is still to be determined? I think there's a lot we don't know yet about which teams are going to get put in that top division.

I think we're calling it Premier now, USL Premier. We don't really know how that's going to be determined. They haven't really talked about the mechanism of which they're going to install that. I think that there are a lot of questions about what that top division is going to look like, because starting off, there are league minimum standards that U.S. soccer has. They'll probably be willing to work with U.S.L. on this. They typically do with leagues to kind of come up with solutions as things roll out. So I guess I'm curious to see, one, how big is that premier division going to look like?

if you strip out championship, which I think currently is 24, I think that's right, 24 teams, that creates a different problem, right? Because now you've gutted your second division to fill up your first division. I think I saw John Morrissey, I don't feel familiar with John Morrissey and his work, USL Tactics, he's one of the best follows for USL content on the internet. But his idea was that they put 12 in. And if you do that, it's the question. is of how do you decide who gets there?

Are you just going to do like a table? Like who finishes at the top of the table in a couple of years? I don't know. There's a lot we don't know about it. We do know that as far as the structure is going to concern us to be promotion relegation between a soon-to-exist division one, a division two that's currently USL championship and a division three, which is currently League One. So that's how they'll have that structured.

We've seen a lot of expansion in League One this year and over the last couple of years. I think that's probably in line with this sort of idea coming. So now you have people that are considering investing and installing teams. And I think that that's kind of the exciting stuff, right? Because I would think if I was a club owner, this is a great opportunity to install myself into USL League One, which is going to have the lowest barrier of entry, get in there. And then potentially you work your way up the ladder, which is, you know, what we see all over the world. What's going to happen with all the League two teams, USL League.

So, USL League 2, for those not familiar, is an amateur league. And it's an amateur league that's been really, it's big now. I don't know if you've looked at that. It's over 100 teams now all over the country. It's continued to a plan. It's really big. So USL has really ramped up their path to pro amateur side. They like to call it pre-professional is what USL likes to call it.

But they've used a lot of, I would say they've taken a very professional approach to the amateur game, and it's attracted a lot of existing clubs out of the old leagues that already existed. So you may have heard of the NPSL. The NPSL was for a long time a very large league. It still is pretty large. It's still got, I think, between 80 and 90 clubs, still playing in it. A lot of their big clubs have moved into U.S. USL League 2.

They see it as a more stable league. There's reasons for it that I don't have to get into too deep on it. But USL League 2 is just a massive amateur league that they've worked hard to kind of build up. The question would be is how do you create a mechanism that makes it possible for an amateur team to go from amateur to professional? That's, I mean, that's really complicated. That's hard in every country. That's, I think, especially hard here in the United States.

I don't think that that is what they've discussed as of yet. That is, I think, the long-term goal. I think that's what everyone would want. That's, you know, those per-rell zealots. That's what they would want is the opportunity for amateur leagues to move up. But that has not been put on the table as of yet from Tampa. Do you think the kind of MLS next zealots in Chattanooga right now that they could be drawn into USL? So.

Because they are zealots. They have a great podcast, by the way. It was amazing. I listened to a two-hour and 46-minute podcast. I know which podcast you listen to. I'm a big fan. Wait, wait, wait. Are they zealots for MLS Next Pro? Well, no. Well, the zealot thing was tongue-in-cheek and will need to be, continue to be. But they even, as they're talking, they talk about when they were radicalized.

Yes, and I think, and in fact, the person that you specifically referenced there is Jim Hicks, who I'm a good friend with and actually interviewed him for an article. that I just wrote about Chattanooga. So to be 100% like clear, I would not say I'm the most plugged in as it comes to Chattanooga Football Club right now because protagonist soccer, who I'm the editor of and is primarily what I work. And I don't know if we got to that or not. But that is not, I don't cover MLS Next Pro.

We're not big fans of MLS, particularly from my organization. We don't really cover Division I men soccer anyway. But we're not big fans of. of them getting involved in lower league soccer the way they have. We're not big fans of two teams. I wasn't a fan of them when they were playing in USL championship, and I was thankful when they left. It is always kind of a bummer when there's a team you want to watch.

You turn it in and they're playing a two team. Yeah, it sucks. And, you know, two teams don't attract fans. Fans don't come to two teams. I could think back in the day when I first, started covering lower league soccer. You know, when Tyler Adams was playing with Red Bull 2, that was a really good Red Bull 2 team and no one went to see them play.

Like, no one cared. I still have a picture of that stadium in my head from watching some of this game. Just a giant bummer. Yeah, it is. It is. Because minor league soccer is not that interesting. And I think that, and I want to be careful, and because, again, I talked about all the nuance at the beginning, I try not to get too aggressive with that because, you know,

The Chattanooga situation is complicated. For those that don't know, Chattanooga Red Wolves, that organization, their owner who is based out of Utah, purchase the league rights, the territory rights for Chattanooga. And so effectively cut off any opportunity Chattanooga Football Club might have in the future for joining if it's League One, if it's championship, whatever's the best fit for them. And so because of that, Chattanooga Football Club, when Nisa collapsed, boy, we are really in the weeds here. Sorry, y'all. I was going to ask you to give us the cliff notes on this.

Well, again, and I always try to be careful because Chattanooga football fans are some of the most rabid, involved fans with their club, and I want to be fair to them, because there are things that either I'm not privy to or I might have forgot. I'm trying to cover the entire United States, and so there's going to be, again, little minutia aspects of what's going on there that I might not be the best person to ask. But what I will say is that effectively, Bob Martina, who's the owner of Chattanooga Red Wolves, purchase the territory rights and USL has territory rights. If you want to purchase a city or the miles around it,

and I'll be honest in saying that I'm not involved directly in those negotiations, so I don't know how big they are, but you can effectively gobble up an area, and USL won't allow another team into that area. And so when Chattanooga Football Club, I guess according to, and you listen to, to that podcast as well.

At one point, USL came to them and said, do you want to join USL? And they said, we're not ready for that or that's not the best move for us right now. So they decided to pass. They sold the territory rights to Chattanooga Red Wolves. And now there is this blood feud, effectively, in Chattanooga between CFC and Chattanooga Red Wolves. And it really brings out the best and worst of rivalries. And we saw some of that at the Open Cup just a couple of weeks ago. it was fun to watch if you're an outsider or a fan of just soccer rivalry in general.

But for some of the fans that were there, Chattanooga Football Club, that was a tough loss to take. And for the Red Wolves, they celebrated it like you would celebrate the win over a rival that you hate. So anyway, so to say, I say all of that to say, if you asked Chattanooga Football Club fans, if they're fan of MLSX Pro, I think that they would probably give you the answer. are that they are fine with it because it allowed their club to continue to exist. And that's the most important thing to chat new football club fans. And I think that in American soccer, those are the kinds of decisions that people make sometimes in their fandom deciding, I am sure there are Portland Tembers fans who weren't thrilled

when Portland joined MLS. But if there's no other option and that's where you have to go, then that's where you have to go and you're going to be a fan of your club, regardless of the, you know, the badge that's on their sleeve. Now, to be clear, you were really plugged in with Chattanooga FC when they were part of NISA, right? Absolutely. So I covered, yeah, so to be 100% clear, not just with NISA, I covered them before when

they were in the NPSL as an amateur team also. We cover amateur soccer and lower league professional soccer as well. And so, yes, they were part of Nisa. If you've ever heard of Nisa, Nisa always makes the news whenever something horrible is happening and the car is on fire. They were part of NISA and they were a highly functioning team in Nisa. They were drawing between four and five thousand fans to their matches and they were a competitive team, never won a NISA championship, which I think is a little funny, just

personally. But I will say that when they left, they felt like there was nothing left for them there. And Nisa was dysfunctioning at a level where I kind of don't blame them. Like there were games getting scratched off the schedule and like teams that were effectively dummy teams, not real teams owned by the league. It was pretty ugly when they left. It was time for them to go. Was it a mistake by them to turn down USL when USO made their overture? Okay.

So I think that this is where 10 years of covering lower league soccer probably makes me pause and try to be careful how to respond. We are going to get destroyed by these people. Oh, yeah. And I'll get half a mile from the stadium. Finley, Finley faithful. They're coming for me. The Chattahooligans. It's a fun place to see a soccer game.

Oh, 100%. No, no, I'm not. I don't have any hard feelings towards their fans or the team. I was opposed to their move to MLS Next Pro because I don't like minor league soccer, just what I was saying earlier. No, but I'm asking, was it a mistake for them to deny, to reject the US. I don't know what the offer was on the table. Like, there are people on that podcast that were privy to more of the facts than I am.

And so I will be fair in saying, like, I don't know what the offer was. I don't know. I don't know what kind of financial expectations were coming from USL. I don't know. And, you know, I know, but I will say Chattanooga fans have painted it in a way that it was an offer that they were not interested in taking. And so they were forced to MLXX Pro. Maybe so, maybe no. I don't know.

I do know that if I'm a fan of a club and I'm going to continue to cheer for that club, I am going to come up with the rationale that makes it okay in my head. My understanding is... I mean, I'm wearing a Manchester United Jersey, by the way. Like, those are the worst owners, maybe not the worst. But they're like top five worst in the Premier League. They're not good people. I continue to wear their jersey.

I've justified this. Sorry to cut you all this. What's going on with the jersey market? Has there been some saturation? How are you feeling about it? I think you know how I feel about it, because you've clearly you've clearly been watching my timeline. And, you know, when I saw you follow me the other day, I was like, this guy is digging for dirt on me.

I've always loved your work walkie, so I have no problems with that. Thank you. And I apologize for not following dinner. I kind of tuned out on following people like four years ago. It does not. You're totally okay. I follow you because you got good content. That's why I follow you.

So as far as the Jersey market, so when we started protagonist soccer, which the first article ran in 2017, I could buy a lower league jersey. I could literally buy a jersey for like $40, $45. And that was the market. The market really in lower league soccer was $50. Pro teams were selling jerseys for $75, $70, $80. And I will tell you that I have a closet full of jerseys. I've posted pictures of those.

And I went ham. I bought a lot of jerseys. the jersey market has there's been several competitors that have come in that have made it you can get bespoke jerseys even if you're a lower league club if you don't have a lot of money you can still get cool jerseys i love that part of the jersey market that's cool because you have you know you have these little tiny clubs playing in front of 50 60 fans and they can go online and sell you know hundreds or thousands of shirts and fund their operations i mean a team like Impula City has done amazing things with their shirts.

Every year it's a release party and they show off their shirts and they sell a lot of shirts. Providence City is a team that has done really cool shirts in the past. Now even tiny clubs are selling shirts for $80, $85. Pro teams are selling shirts for like $120. Like, I'm sorry, I get that things are more expensive after the pandemic, but you are pricing out your fans. Like your fans can't afford to wear your shirt. I shop on, honestly, on eBay now, on the secondary market, looking for you shirts

because I can get something cheaper. It's frustrating to me because this is a thing that you should be leveraging for the success of your club. And the success of your club isn't just the initial purchase of that shirt. It's selling four or five shirts. It's selling a hat. It's selling a scarf. It's making fans for the few.

that are going to come back and cycle this again. And instead, we're going for the big buy and how are we going to, you know, squeeze the most dollars out of our fans. I think it sucks. Does Minneapolis City do the $80 shirt thing? I did not buy their shirt last year. So I'm not going to, I'm not 100% sure what they're selling for. But I think they're, they're, they're in the $70, $75, $80, I think.

Okay. Do you have a forward Madison shirt? I have a three-part question. Do you have a Ford Madison shirt? I do have a Ford Madison shirt. Do you have a Richmond kicker shirt? I do not have a Richmond kicker shirt. I almost bought one when I was in Richmond.

Okay. But at the time, I did not. How does it make sense? This is the third part, that that is one of the best derbies in America between teams from Madison, Wisconsin, and Richmond, Virginia. Okay. It makes sense because it's entirely organic, and it was founded by actual fans of the club

instead of some league trying to slap something together and pre-naming a competition. That's the beauty of the Hennie Derby. I know that's what we're talking about. The Hennie Derby is one of the coolest fan-created competitions between two clubs, and the clubs are leaning into it and allowing the fans to run it. And so we're not getting a bunch of spinoff merch where they could. They could sell thousands of Hennie Derby shirts,

but instead they're allowing the fans, the supporters of those clubs, to really lean in and be the leaders on that. Give your listeners just a quick plug. We're actually working on a shirt with those two fan bases that's going to be out on protagonist soccer pretty soon, and it's going to benefit a charity. So just a heads up on that. That's coming.

That worked out perfectly. I'll be selling it for $90. No, I'm joking. But anyway, my point is, but that's why it works, though, because it's fan-based. That's the beauty of lower league soccer, because MLS will put out Heineken rivalry week

and tell you which teams that you're supposed to care about your team playing. But the reality is the only derbies that people care about in MLS are Portland and Seattle, and maybe that's it. I don't know. I don't watch a lot of, maybe the L.A. rivalry. I could get into the L.A. Rivalry. Yeah. I could get into the Ohio one.

The Ohio. Hell is real. I like Tennessee Cincinnati when they played in championship. I thought that was cool. They were a cool team. Before we move on, I did do a terrible job of introducing a. at the beginning of the show. You have protagonist soccer, which is a website, journalism is on there, and you do podcasts, too.

We do. And we'll put the links to all that in the show notes. I appreciate it. Check out what Dan is doing. Also, you're not on Twitter, but you're on blue sky. Yeah, it's not just me. I work with a team of dedicated amateur, pre-professional journalists who invests their time, energy into creating cool content about lower League Soccer.

Couldn't do it without them. So I just want to be 100% clear. I might be the face and the voice of a lot of stuff that we do. But the reality is that there are other people involved, particularly Joshua Duter, who's my guy from Portland or the Portland area. He does a lot of work on that. But yeah, so, yeah, we run the website. And that's kind of my primary thing because I love or sometimes I love writing, whenever

my brain's not much because I have a six-month-old. But writing is a big thing for me. It's how I started in this. And then the podcast kind of came, and I have the voice for that. And now we're kind of leaning into YouTube, too. So we're doing a lot of, we're trying to expand into video as well. So yeah, sorry about that. I didn't mean to step on you there.

No, that's it. I just wanted to rectify. Thank you. And just to be 100% clear, we cover everything from regional soccer, and that goes all the way down to, I mean, we've written articles about leagues like Buffalo District Soccer League and Buffalo, New York, the Bay State Soccer League in the Northeast. Don't get me started in the Northeast.

But certainly Southwest Premier League, like those are these regional leagues all over the country, up through the big nationals like the NPSL, the UPSL, the UPSL, the UPSL League 2. That's on the men side, on the women's sides. There's WPSL, UWS, USLW League. And then we've started covering Championship League one on the U.S. side. And we also cover

a Division 1 league. We cover the U.S.L Super League because we're fans of women's soccer and we like that league a lot. So yeah, that too. You also last year did some coverage of the U.S. Amateur Cup. And my question is, can the Panciprian freedoms repeat? I will tell you, Chris, this is so funny.

Panciprian is a team that on paper, I could not read their name for a long time. I wasn't 100% sure how to pronounce it. And then started digging into that. And their history is so cool. I didn't really know what a pancyprian was. I didn't really, and it had to do with Greek independence is sort of what I eventually figured out. And it's like some Greek immigrants

that came to New York City. And that's, there's so many cool little teams in New York City in the Northeast that are sort of based around people's immigrant heritage. And so you get a lot of ties into, you know, if it's political movements or if it's immigration stories, it's the kind of stuff. It's the kind of stuff that I love about soccer. And Pansiprian freedoms are part of that too. And yeah, they're, they are the kind of team that can repeat. And I would say they can because they play in a tough league. They play up in the, they used to play in the cosmopolitan league, not to play in the EPSL, which I think just changed this name actually to American Soccer League. I think they just changed their name. So forgive me for that. But what I will say is they are a team that has.

deep roots in their area. And so because of that, particularly in a soccer-rich area like New York City, you're able to find players who are willing to play for you and to come back and play with you again and come back and play with you again. A lot of people made fun of like what Des Moines did in the open cup going and adding these like ex-players to come in and play. But that's not really all that odd in the amateur space. Like finding a player that wants to come in and just, you know, maybe they're a little past

their prime, but maybe they used to be pro, or maybe, you know, they had a knee injury when they were in college that they never got, never got their big break, but they're still incredibly talented. Those are the kind of like stories that fill amateur rosters all over the country. I will tell you, if you're a fan of the U.S. Open Cup, El Ferralito, who's going to be playing as we record this evening against Sacramento, one of their goalkeepers, Kevin Gonzalez, used to play in Nisa. had any injury. Now he's playing over there with El Felolito. I love that stuff, man.

That's what, to me, lower league soccer gives you. Yeah, there's stories like that in pro soccer too, right? But lower league soccer is, particularly in the amateur game, you don't know who's on the roster. All these guys have backstories, but no one ever hears them. And that, to me, is what protagonist soccer really tries to focus on, is telling these stories, opening up, you know, the book of these guys' lives,

because they've all got something interesting to talk about. Can we go back to ProRal for a second? Yeah. Or maybe a minute. Sure, pro rel, that's a minute topic. If USL, you know, if USL does this, what is the likelihood that Chattanooga ends up joining back with the USL? Because they don't really want to stay in MLS Next Pro forever.

That's a great question. And the problem is, is that we don't know what kind of bridges, were burned in their move to Next Pro. We don't know. I mean, unfortunately, the game of soccer is just like everything else in life, and it's full of people that are stepping on each other all the time, and people get their feelings hurt. I don't, I can't answer that question.

It would involve USL obviously changing their territory rights rule, which I think they're going to have to face that, particularly as you get into promotion relegation, because potentially maybe you could have a team promote and come into an area that technically they don't have the right to? I just think there's going to be problems long term that are going to have to be solved there. You think they'd have to get rid of the rule. I would think they would, but people have paid for this.

And that becomes challenging. You know what? They've got to go to owners and you've got to talk those owners into giving up something that they paid for. Do you pay them back? I don't. I don't really know what the mechanism. How much did they pay for them? Do you know?

I don't. We should ask the people in Chattanooga. You should have those guys on next. It seems like they think the Red Wolves. They call them East Ridge. They don't call them Chattanooga. I wrote about that a little bit. I described it as if it's almost as if they're trying to excise them geographically out of Chattanooga

as if they don't exist in the city of Chattanooga. And I looked at the map and I'm like, look, you can say that. But if you ask me where that team plays, they play in Chattanooga. Well, for people that live within the mountains, other side of the mountains, that's a different city. Yeah, there is, Chris is right. There's like a ring, there's a, you know, the ridge, missionary ridge runs across the east side of Chattanooga and up north and south. And if you're on the other side of the ridge, I mean, some of it is Chattanooga still, but it doesn't really, it's not as much Chattanooga is. I mean, there are parts of El Paso that I say aren't El Paso and

those people still claim to be part of El Paso. I hear you, but I will tell you that when it comes to geography. I have at time made mistakes in the past, and I'm willing to own those. Well, I'm glad you brought it up because you mentioned you went to Richmond last year for the Henny Derby. I did.

And on your podcast, you referred to Virginia as being in the northeast. And I guess just my question is, and I understand your perspective because you're from El Paso, and it is northeast of El Paso. There's no doubt I know. Where do people from El Paso think the north starts? No, I can't.

can't speak for a city. There's 600,000 people that live in El Paso, and I don't know that I have the right to speak for all of them. I will admit that at times I have conflated things in ways that may not be fair to either maps or the people that live on those maps. You're probably correct in that. I am aware that Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy, which would imply that is definitely in the South, just historically and probably geographically. When you were defense, though, the U.S. Amateur Cup regions, Virginia is in the northeast region. So that could have played into it. I can't help this.

I'm a product of my own environment. But yeah, no, I do this all the time. In fact, I joke. Texas is so big. And people that are not from Texas often are like, oh, well, you could just head over to Austin. Austin's like an eight mile drive, eight hour drive from El Paso. Dallas is like 11 hours from where I live. Like this is like you would cross multiple states.

Like I can drive to Dallas or I can drive to L.A. They're the same distance from where I live. That's crazy. Yeah. So because of that oftentimes, yeah, I had a co-host, my friend John. He lives in New Jersey and I oftentimes the teams playing in New York. And I'm like, oh, that's like right in your backyard. He's like, you don't understand how big New York is.

I don't, I don't. I mean, it is weird, though, that Richmond, you know, Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy, but it's, what is it, like three hours from D.C. Yeah. It's, it is kind of. See, that's a history podcast. We should kick that off right now, guys. Northeast doesn't start until. Yeah, where does it start?

The top half of New Jersey. You don't consider, like, D.C. the Northeast? No. What's D.C. was part of a compromise where the South got the capital in their, in their territory. No, okay. It's a humid swamp. No, I understand. Come on, I totally get that.

But like, you don't consider, I mean, I guess in my, and again, I'm, I live in El Paso, that's fair. In my mind, I think D.C. as the Northeast, that's like, yeah, so I guess that's not right. There you go. I learned something new for a day. I grew up in Richmond, so I have just very strong opinions about it. Hey, I will tell you, visiting Richmond was great. I love the city. I had a great time.

there. Really beautiful city. And the people at the kickers, awesome people, whole organization, that stadium is, I love that kind of stadium. It's like it feels, it's kind of like Keyworth in Detroit. It just feels like it's part of the neighborhood. It is part of the neighbor. You walk through the neighborhood to get to the stadium. Love that stuff. You can't beat that. I got to be honest. I am pulling up map now. It does look like it's pretty, it could definitely be part of the Northeast. Well, now put yourself in El Paso looking at that map. It's definitely part of the Northeast.

It could have just been, I might have come into this with the wrong ones. Speaking of El Paso, I've always wondered this. How famous is Ricardo Pepe in El Paso? If he's going there, is he being noticed? Is he stopped getting stopped for pictures constantly? Oh, yeah. No, I stopped his aunt and uncle walking through the airport because they happen to have Ricardo Pepe jersey on.

And I was just like, hey, do you guys, are you guys going to the game? and they're like going to the game, we're going to see my nephew play. And I'm like, your nephew, and I even tweeted about it, and Ricardo Pepe liked the tweet, it was like the best day of my life. No, I adore Ricardo Pepe. And I'm going to get into this a little bit because I know this is not why you had me on the show. And I, you know, but I am going to use this platform to whatever way that I can. I do not understand why Ricardo Pepe isn't the name or be on the roster when it comes to the starting spot.

I understand Balagan has a lot of talent, but he underachieves. And it's frustrating to me when we have these super talented guys underachieving when Pepe comes in and he scores goals. And then everyone poohs the goals and says, well, it wasn't pretty or he wasn't in the right position. Don't you care about positioning? It's like, no, I care about goal scoring. You know, I know Greg's not on the show right now.

But Greg would tell me about how it's all about, you know, you have to be in the right positioning. It's about repeated tactics over and over again. Even if you don't convert them, Dan, it's just Greg's talking to me in this case. But like, this is how you win games. Pepe wins games by scoring goals. And the disrespect on Ricardo Pepe Eltren, the pride of El Paso is infuriating to me. And I will say this, and this might get a little political here.

I don't think it helps that his name's Ricardo Pepe. And he could have started or could have been playing for the, for the Mexico team, Mexico national. team. And I feel like this is a constant thing that happens is that the U.S. program focuses on little white guys and wants to put them in positions of success. And we have this player whose last name doesn't fit that mold. And he doesn't come through. And we're seeing it again with Diego Luna. Did it not take Diego Luna finally getting an opportunity and go, what were you waiting for? Yeah, he doesn't look like he came out of, you know, the youth national team. But the reality is he is a talented, driven player who pushes himself to succeed. He's everything that we should want on this

national team. To me, the national team is, could be, in my opinion, the best of us. It is, it is, does not matter your color, your background. It does not matter where you're from. You have the opportunity to come together and play under the crest. And that to me is why I love the national team. And it's also why I've struggled with it politically because there are some fans of it that are toxic politically from my perspective and it challenges my fandom because to me it's a melting pot. That's what the national team should be. It should be a combination of the best of this country, regardless of your social status, regardless of your color of skin, regardless of your last name and your surname, this is an opportunity for you to succeed and make our nation look great. I agree with that. I agree

with that wholeheartedly, but what is it, I'm not sure what it has to do with Peppy. Well, because we're looking straight at you, Josh Sargent, and the way to support you. Josh Sargent, oh my God, I just listened to the episode from, I think, two weeks ago and listen to you and Vince talking about, well, Josh Sargent's goal was really great. My God, the dude, he doesn't convert for the national team. And I know I'm fan-boying. I apologize. But I'm just saying that, like, having to listen to just the constant, like, well,

Josh Sargent just needs the opportunity. How many opportunities does he get? And I like Josh Sargent. He's a good dude. Maybe four. Four? Four hundred. No, it just...

Pepey has more caps than Sargent. He also has more goals than Sargent. And he also has more goals per game than Sergeant. Well, definitely. He would have played this. That's fair. But what I love about Pepey is that he looks as if PSV is buying into his future and signing him to an extended contract.

Shame he blew out his knee right as they announced it, but signed him to a contract. And that's either a decision that he's going to be the starter long term or he's going to be the kind of player that they can sell. Either one. And I get that. So to me... Either one is a good outcome. It's great for him. Sorry, this is not what I was on the show for. No, I love it. I love it. I think we actually do just want to transition to talking about your strongest thoughts about the USM&T at this point. Because we are the USM&T podcast. You know, it was... I agree that Pepe has been so clutch. I mean, I think specifically of the goal against Honduras, you know, that was... I mean, that saved Burrhalter's campaign, basically. I think that Pepe just has a nose for goal.

And I'm not saying that he's the prettiest player, but he's a grinder. He always works in defense. He's always willing to cycle back for the ball. I just... He's hungry for glory, Dan. He's hungry for glory. He wants to... He wants to shine for the crest, man.

What do we want? What these pretty boys are going to come in and take the time? I'm not sure who the pretty boy. Is Josh Sargent the pretty boy in this equation? That guy's a pretty boy. Come on, look at him. He's a beautiful man. He's not even pretty.

He's not a good looking at all. You guys are hating on gingers now. Is that what's going on here? If we need to. I don't know what's, maybe it's, is gingerness, but he's just. Listen, I don't, I don't hate Josh Sargent as much as I want to see, I want to see, I want to see what Pepe is done to be recognized by the people that I respect. And I do respect the guys in the show.

Like, you guys... I wrote a flippin song about the dude. You did. You did. I'll give you credit you. I sang it. I'm not saying it was a great song, but I'm glad you wrote the song. Adam's very sensitive about his song, so you won't...

You've got to put yourself out there, just like Pepey puts himself out there, and I appreciate it. I'm fine. The problem with the Pepey song, it's not a problem with the Pepey song. It just got so overshadowed by the Boosio song. It did. I had forgotten you did a peppy song. Did you ever do a Ledesma song? Because, man, you, I don't know if I met a guy that likes Richard Ledesma board you.

I mean, you know what? I used to argue on the podcast, like almost exactly what you just argued about Pepe. It's like, we need players like Ledesma on the national team for the sake of America, you know? Because we were, what, this was like 2019. I think that. And I still think that, although I think it's like, Luna's getting a shot. People are critical of inclusion because they think, well, that's taking a seat away from somebody else that deserves it. And I would argue it opens up the seat for a person that might have been ignored or didn't take the quote unquote right path to get there, but that is talented enough to fill the seat.

That's what inclusion is about. And to me, that's what the national team about. We should be cycling in new players all the time to give them opportunity to see what they can do. again, look at Luna over these last two cycles. He's been a revelation. And I don't know if he's a starter or not. I don't know if he is. I hope he is because I love him.

But I'll say he brings an edge to the game that feels like the old national team as compared to what the national team has become. And like we have some of the most talented players we've ever seen in the history of this game playing starting for the big clubs of Europe. And the reality is that when they come together, they're never more than the sum of their parts.

They're always flat. And like if it takes someone like a Luna, if it takes someone like a Pepe, if it takes whoever the next name is that needs to get an opportunity in. And I love Wes, but man, if he ain't going to hustle, buddy, I'm sorry, we don't have a place for you. And that sucks because I love Wes. It seems like Pacetino loves Luna or at least likes him. But does he watch his games? Who knows?

That is one of my favorite clips that I've ever heard in journalism ever. when that question got asked. He was so insulted. Like, it was... Did we ever play that on here? You may never get another invitation back, but I'm glad you did it. That takes some gut.

Talk about big balls. I think we know who has a big balls on this podcast. Well, I don't even know if Adam knew he was asking a big balls question. Do you know what you were doing? I didn't really. I mean, I was trying to be polite and I just misspoke. So my balls are really small, guys. I don't tell them this is a different kind of podcast that I was expected to be on I'll be real

Too much power this is what happens Which Chris and I are both in the Chattanooga area so we got to kind of keep circling back to this Which Chattanooga team has the moral high ground in your opinion We're really going to pick you down on this Okay there's no question in my mind Chattanooga Football Club has the high ground morally okay because they can argue

we had to make a decision between and when you listen to and it's not just the fans I for an article I wrote an article two weeks ago called One Chattanooga and I spoke with guys from the front office

they talked about we had to make the decision to go to a league where we could count on teams showing up to play us every day like whenever they were scheduled we had to count on the chance for us to bring talent

and promise them they were going to have the opportunity to, like, you know, play and hopefully get exposed and move up. And they did that because of their dedication to the city of Chattanooga. And I won't say what's going on inside of Chattanooga Red Bulls front office because they're kind of a black box from the outside. But I will say that Chattanooga Football Club is really dedicated to the youth programs in the area. I know, I know, Adam, you've talked about that. Yeah, it's really true.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that, like, you can't look at an organization like that and then hate on them. I mean, I might not like their decisions, but I've said it 100 times. I want them to live forever. They're the kind of club that every city should have one or two or three. Yeah. Yeah, they just sent three players out to our Little Rec Association on, like, a Tuesday,

to run a players clinic for all the U6 and U8 players. And it, you know, I mean, it's fun for the kids. They sign autographs afterwards and stuff. It's awesome. It's awesome. And I mean, I think the Red Wals actually, to be fair, they do a lot in Eastridge, which is like a kind of a center of the youth soccer area. And not Chattanooga, apparently.

I mean, but I will say this. And I do want to make sure that I put this through. I may not like MLS Next Pro as an organization because of what it means to the game of soccer in the United States and in what I would call the minor leagging of soccer because I'm not a fan of that. But I am a fan of players getting the opportunity to develop their talents and in both of those clubs' cases, make a paycheck, get supported. Maybe they are able to do the kind of work that you're talking about, showing up at like small youth clubs and being involved with what's going on there. You can't do that if you've got to work a second job or if you don't ever even have the opportunity to play soccer at a professional level. I want that.

So if it's USL, if it's MLS-Nex Pro, if it's NISA, whatever the league is, I want more opportunities, particularly professional opportunities for soccer players in the United States. And it is so obvious to me, and we can go back to Diego Luna here, he spent time playing here in El Paso, made a bunch of fans here in this city before he got to go on to Salt Lake to go to the big stage. And that's part of the process. Yeah, you're a big Diego Lugat Lungar.

It must have been so much fun to go watch and play in your home city. Ah, yeah, that is interesting. So, listener, for those of you not know, that aren't in the know here, I had a complicated relationship with USL championship coming to the city of El Paso. I had because, and this goes back to the purity tests and who's got the moral high ground, because in my mind, what had they done to deserve my fandom? What had they done? You know, a big rich oil guy bought rights to the team and slapped them in here.

And at the time, I was supporting a couple of local UPSL, which is like a low-level amateur league here in the city, and that's where I was going to soccer matches. And so the idea of going to a championship side just seemed like a sellout. It was like MLS light in my mind. mind. Over the last seven years, I would say that I've changed my perspective a little bit, and I'm a credentialed media member that goes to U.S.L. Championship Games at Southwest University Park. So I do involve myself in that now. So I would say that there are no clean hands

in American soccer. No one is clean. Everyone has tried to kill another league, another team. and, you know, I was laughing because on, like, I figured the Soccer Wars question was going to come up. Soccer Wars has been going on. It's never died. It's always going to be that case. Well, let's get, let's do that question now. The question was going to be, do, should we fear a full scale soccer war? Well, listen.

I saw, I saw MLS fans saying, I don't know why USL is going to do this. This is a challenge to, you know, the stability of MLS. and then there's other people. I mean, and I love him, but Vince was kind of like, who cares? Like, this is some other league. What does it matter? Because he was kind of pooing the promotion relegation thing.

I think there's a lot of perspectives to have on it. But I will say that USL and MLS have been at war for a long time. That's going to continue. There are people that think that eventually MLS ends up gobbling up USL. Maybe. Maybe that's what happens. I don't know. But I do know that U.S.

is pushing the sport forward in creative ways, and MLS, in my mind, is trying to stagnate the sport in ways that benefit it. And that's a problem from my perspective, because to me, I want a lively sport in the United States. I want interesting leagues doing interesting things. That's where I'm at. I just wanted you keep going. Oh, okay.

Well, I wasn't sure. But, well, let me get to where I was. going then because I can remember, and I'm sure you do too, when San Diego FC was announced in San Diego and it killed, to me, the most ironic names ever. San Diego loyal because all the fans were like, well, I guess we're going to follow San Diego FC now. And the ownership was like, we're out and just killed the club. And I'm sure there are fans that haven't just jumped over San Diego FC. But my point is, is that, you know, people hated MLS in that time because they killed this vibrant supporter culture for San Diego

Loyal, and there was a lot of fun things happening there. I would argue San Diego is a big enough city to have two professional soccer teams. That's my opinion. But American soccer fans don't always see it that way. I'm kind of curious to see if the concept of promotion relegation

and a functioning system that sort of allows movement between these leagues might create the kind of thing, the kind of hook, that might hold a fan to a club, even if they aren't the biggest dog in their pound or the biggest fish in their pond, whatever the metaphor you want to use there. I am hopeful that USL's approach to put a new mechanism, and it's not a new mechanism, right,

but a new mechanism in the United States to put it into use to maybe create a differentiator that makes either MLS get involved in some way. I don't know. Like, again, we can't, I think it's real easy to be like, well, it's always going to be this way because that's the way it is. My God, professional sports all over the place. Teams have moved all over the place. Leagues have absorbed each other and combined. I just think that we don't know what the future holds, but I'm excited for what USL is doing.

I think it's a cool approach to the sport, and it fires me up as a lower league soccer fan. I think, like, Chattanooga is a good example where you could have two clubs here, and they're very different. I know you don't quite buy it, but they're like very different geographic sort of identities. You know, Chad Newga FC is more, I think, more associated with the mountain,

lookout mountain. Red wolves are more like more sort of oriented to the eastern suburbs. I will tell you, Adam, if you watch that U.S. Open Cup match, and you can still watch it, it's on YouTube. But if you watch that crowd, that is a mix of two different fan bases. You could tell because one's wearing blue and one's wearing red. and there are, I don't know, what did they say the announced attendance was, 12,000? Was it 14 to go that high?

Maybe, maybe 12. I mean, we're talking about over 10,000 fans that can sustain two division three soccer teams. That's a, that feels like a sustainable model moving forward. And it feels like the kind of thing that I would hope both clubs would lean into a little bit. I don't know that fans always want that, but I will tell you talking to the front offices of at least one of those clubs, they were like, we hadn't considered playing them before, but it's kind of interesting to see how many people are buying tickets. Yeah.

I also just want to agree with what you said about the, about MLS is more, what it seems like its main interest is entrenching itself and like making the existing owners succeed, which I understand. I get that. If you drop $300 million on your investment, you want to return. And MLS has sold this idea to these billionaire owners, the author blanks of the world, they've sold this idea that we're going to print money. And again, I'm not saying that's right or wrong.

It's not how I see the world, but that's how they see the world. And that is a model. And I would argue it's because of how the NFL operates. And a lot of the ownership groups are connected to the NFL. And so there is a similar approach to that. And because of that, it makes, from my opinion, the game boring. And I know that Messi's playing here, great, but this is not Young Messy. And I don't know how many Young Messies this system could actually generate.

We haven't seen any Young Messies generated here. I know that we've had some successful players coming to MLS. I'm just arguing that to me, it's not an exciting model because even then it's, and I'm going to be honest, I don't know how many MLS sides there are right now, 30 maybe. I don't know. Not an MLS fan. But there's 30 cities that get a club. And if you're MLS,

that's the only soccer that MLS wants you to watch. They don't want you to give any care for the team that might be playing next door to you unless it's an MLS side. But like I live in El Paso. There is not an MLS club within, I guess, Dallas or L.A would be the two that are closed. Well, no, I'm trying to think.

Yeah, I think that's it. maybe Houston, Austin. Austin's probably the closest one. But that's what MLS wants me to care about. And I would argue that a real sport, a real soccer system would give you options outside of that that are closer to you. And that's what USL has argued. That's their plan. They want to be in more markets to expose people to professional soccer.

And you can say, you can take a very cynical perspective. On saying that, of course they would say that. But I would argue, take them at their word. And if it benefits you as a soccer fan or benefits you as a soccer player, awesome for you. Then we've both won here. Because if USL can build a functioning system and at the same time, grow out the talent base in the United States and give paid opportunities for players, that's a win for the sport of soccer. It's not a win for MLS. But it's a win for the sport of soccer.

And I argue that's a good thing. I think MLS had to do it the way it did it. I mean, maybe didn't have to, but you can understand why they did it the way they did it, not just because they're influenced by the NFL, but because soccer leagues had been created and failed in the history of America many times, and they needed to do it in a way that sort of helped them get to the next level. I think if you go back to the mid-90s, maybe that's what you had to do, right? And I can tell you, I've talked to, you guys need to get Peter Wilt on the show,

because I don't know if he's ever been on the show, You should talk to him. He has not. I've thought about it. Yeah, I've thought about that. I've interviewed him like six times and every time like, I've got to go back and interview him some more. Because his stories from like early like 1.0 MLS are like amazing. Like the stuff that he saw and did in Chicago.

But Michael Hitchcock was part of that too. He's a, he's a big, now he's a big operator and amateur soccer. But anyway, when you go back to that time, like they were within hours of shuttering up MLS multiple times and had to get investment. in. And so I get it. That poisons your thinking in a way that being old and rich does, right? Like, I get it. Like, you know, I talked to my, he was not rich, but my grandfather that came out of the Depression would do things that I thought were ridiculous, but that's because he was shaped by the Depression. I would argue that MLS operates in a way that probably made sense in the mid-90s. I just don't know in 2025 that it makes any more sense any longer. Or, or maybe it does make sense for

them, but I don't think it makes sense for the game of soccer. Yeah. I also don't think that because they created this stable league and then we should all be grateful to them and say, well, we're only going to support them and not support USL. Like, wait, it's not charity. Yeah. Like, you know, they're still charging $130 for their horrible kits that they release all at the same time.

Like, I just, to me, it's like, why wouldn't we want. creative operators in this space doing cool things. Right. Yeah. It is going to be, I'm excited to watch, you know, a very spirited League One team try to advance up to the Premier, USL Premier. I will tell you, you think of like a Union Omaha, a team that has been consistently good in League One always shows up in the Open Cup and is involved in cup sets. I think they're like the poster child for the kind of team that is in a market. Omaha, like, I mean, I don't think MLS, I don't know that's ever been on an MLS list before,

but this is the kind of team that could do really interesting things. They have a smart front office. They attract good players and they play smart. I just feel like, again, why wouldn't we want this kind of challenge? And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, I guess. But boy, I'd rather be on this side where the creativity is than, stale soccer whatever version MLS we're in now. So for people who may be considering watching some USL this year, we got Union Omaha,

are there a couple other model clubs? And then are there some, what are the big rivalries other than the Henny? Well, I will say that League One is a fun league to watch. You know, you have the teams that everyone's heard of like a Richmond kickers, right, that has been around for forever. and is finally getting an opportunity to shine here. But the team like South Georgia Tormenta is a fun one to watch. One Knoxville has great merch, which if you're a merch guy, that's a good place to go.

You mentioned that forward Madison, Richmond Kickers match that everyone looks forward to. That's on both ends, the ones that happens in Richon, the one that happens in Madison. This is two of the most passionate fan bases in the league. Portland Hearts of Pine is a brand new club that just came into the league this year that has all kinds of support and interest from all over the country, including a German podcaster who podcasts about them, which is so great to listen to. It's just this German guy and he's got a microphone

and he's just talking about Portland hearts of pine. And I love it. I'm all for it. In English. He's doing it in English. Oh, yeah, in English. Yeah. And he gets up in the middle of night and watches him play.

He's, that kind of stuff is, again, like, yeah, there are sickos in the United States that are really, really into like lower league soccer in Germany or England, there could be sickos over there that are really invested in our lower league. We just got to give them the opportunity. So I think there's tons of storylines. And the cool thing about like a league one is how many players you see come to a season

here and then get plucked up and moved into a championship roster. Players that get an opportunity to shine, do shine, and then get an opportunity to move up. You see it in the open cup all the time. I just think like if you're not at least giving the opportunity, if you're just like, well, it's lower league, I don't care. Man, you're missing out. There's so much fun soccer going on. I mean, not that you guys need more soccer to watch, but it just.

Well, I was going to ask, and sort of ask you to be pastoral with me here for a minute. Should I feel guilty that I don't really have a, not only do I not have a lower league team that I support? I don't really even have a, I don't even have a club that I support, honestly. Okay. So. Should I feel guilty about that?

And how much? I'm going to say no, because I am guilty of this as well in the sense of like, I don't follow any American soccer team as my club. I don't. I am a passive Manchester United fan in England. I used to watch them a lot in the early 2000s because they were the only team that would be on Fox consistent. on those Saturday games. And so I'd watch a lot of Manchester United, you know, the Rooney years. I think there were plenty of Manchester United fans that came out of that era, just like

there's plenty of Liverpool fans now. But what I, that's a shot at plastic Liverpool fans anyway. But what I was saying is that I don't think that, because the service that you do for soccer is bigger than any one club at him. And that's not just like a kissing your ass. it's kissing all of the asses of the guys and ladies that are investing time in creating content around the sport driving interest just because you're not spending money on a ticket or maybe you're not a season ticket holder somewhere or maybe you don't have every jersey

the reality is the hours that you invest in the sport and I say that as someone that has invested way too many hours of my own time over the last 10 years in lower league soccer that is you love the sport and whether or not that comes out in club culture if it does awesome and please tell me and I know you do you enjoy going to a soccer match

maybe you don't get to do it as much as you'd like but going to a match and watching a good team play is always a reward and I do that all the time with teams that I don't have a vested rooting interest which sometimes pisses off some of the people that are involved. When I watched that Chattanooga Red Wolf's match when they beat CFC, I was cool because it was a fun soccer match that ended in penalty kicks

and it went down to the last kick. That's exciting soccer. Maybe if you're a CFC fan, that's a bummer. But, boy, I enjoyed a fun soccer game. And I turned off my YouTube browser at the end of it. I was totally good with it. I'm totally happy with it. So to me, like, loving a sport is just,

just as noble, just as loyal as loving a team. And if anyone tells you otherwise, tell them to go to a protagonist. We'll talk to them. Okay. Appreciate that. Thank you. That's the answer I wanted to hear. I will tell you that when I came in to record this podcast, I told my wife, 30 minutes, max. 30 minutes. No way. They're going to have me talk about

lower league soccer for an hour. Well, Senator, give her our apologies. You have a six-month-old. Congratulations, dude. Hey, you know, it is funny, the difference between, So I also have a nine-year-old. And, you know, when I had the nine-year-old, well, she wasn't born at nine, as you may have guessed. But going through that process, being a first-time dad and all of the lessons that you learn and you get the rhythm that you get used to. And it's like, I got to do, you know, change the diaper of this, have this.

You get into this pattern that you learn. And then as the kid grows up, you forget all of the lessons that you learn. Absolutely. Then that second one comes and you are screwed. You don't understand. A friend of mine describes it as it's not that you're doubling. It's like you quadruple all of the pain that you had to deal with with the first one. So it is getting up in the middle of the night, which credit to my wife, she does way more of that than I do.

But just for me, getting off of work and I got to take care of a kid. And that's my job for the next four or five hours. It is not the most fun thing, but it is probably the most rewarding thing if I'm really. real. Like it may, it may suck in the moment, you know, being way steep in a crappy diaper, but in the end, you know, when they grow up and they're playing centerback for some local club and you're screaming at them to, you know, go kick the ball. Yeah, it'll be worth it. What kind of soccer parent are you planning on being a unicode kind of role? Well, I already have a soccer, I'm already a soccer parent, man. My daughter plays for the locomotive youth team here in El Paso. She is,

she is a nine-year-old who is five-foot, I think five-foot one, 120 pounds. She is an absolute unit on the backline for her U-10 team. Like, she is a beast back there. Like, those little girls do not know what's coming when my daughter comes rumbling at them. But she, I will be honest in saying that I am the up and down kind of parent, which is every match I go into it, I'm like, okay, today I'm going to be encouraging. I'm not going to say anything negative.

And then it takes one like flailed kick at a ball and a striker moving the ball around her. I'm like, why'd you do that? Throw your body into her. You know, the things that parents say. But my daughter is, she's much more level-headed than her dad is. But I will say this second child, she looks like she's going to be an angry defensive mid. And I'm excited about that. At six months, I think, you know, what's great for my kids also, my wife,

is the daughter of immigrant parents. So they qualify to play for the Mexico team as well. So I'm going to leave that door open, you know, as this pans out and see what happens. It wouldn't be the first player to come out of El Paso and make the decision. Or maybe they follow the path of El Pepe and we move on and they're playing for the U.S. Women's National Team. Who knows? We don't close any doors yet.

It's the best career decision there. Can't not fault you for it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do your daughter's grandparents? Or they play a role in teaching them the game? They teach them the fandom of L3, which is a complicated thing for me to deal with as their parent. Because I will tell you that when U.S. plays Mexico, my wife oftentimes will go over to her parents' house to watch the game with them.

And I stay home and watch the national team in my own house because my wife and I've had arguments before on that match. And I get it. I understand. The problem is now is sort of, it feels like Mexico is now ascending and we're kind of slumping. And so now I have to be really careful about all the things that I've said over the last, what, like five, six years of dominance that we've had in Conccaf. It's become more complicated now. But you know what, again, just to go circle back all the way.

If they grow up and they are fans of the game, even passive fans of the game, totally good with that. Like, you know, I am, I 100% appreciate the relationship, the complicated relationship that Mexican-Americans have when it comes to soccer fandom and picking a national team to root for. That is so much more complicated than, you know, the average, the average way in which it's described by U.S. men's national team fans or U.S. women's national team fans. Like I just think that like the roots and the blood runs deep and I can respect that. And I am a big U.S. national team fan and I will continue to be that. And my wife is an L3 fan and I buy her the jerseys. I would never wear one. But man, they look so good in the closet.

I have to admit, L3 just has a very good looking jerseys right there. Adidas crushes. Do you see that black and gold kit? My God, can we not have something like that for us to wear? We get this, these, anyway, I own 24 U.S. men's national teams jerseys. I am a sicko, and none of them measure up to just a couple of the last, the last Mexico jerseys. It is what it is. Yeah.

All right. Guys, we go all over the place. By the way, I just want to say, just in real talk, and I know I kind of hinted at this earlier, thank you all for what you do. I am, even for me personally, as a guy who, eats, drinks, soccer constantly. Coming to scuffed as a listener and as a fan of the national team is such a, like, a cup of cold water at the end of the day. After every match, if y'all don't do a recap episode, I am like tapping my fingers, like, can you please get up this recap?

Yes, I watch the game, but I need to hear what you all thought of it too. What excuses are we making for sergeant's misses? I need to hear these things. but like I will just say like I know the grind on this end and the work that you all do is just the same kind of grind and I want you to say I wanted to say as someone that understands it how much I appreciate it and like I am a fan of what you guys do I am a true believer I talk about your show all the time with people it's just it's it's the kind of show that whenever and I don't know if you all saw this but when FIFA was denying citizen journalists

passes or photo media passes for the World Cup this kind of was big on Blue Sky the other day basically because they weren't connected to a big organization so they weren't going to be allowed to take photos at the World Cup like the citizen journalists

are the ones that are carrying like the gap in what's happening to journalism by the way Bob Lee awesome interview I just want to say that as well his perspective on journalism just like it was again just a refreshing shot in the arm like keep grinding find your spot do your thing I went around the world there I just wanted to say thank you because I've really enjoyed a chance

to talk about everything with you guys and what you all do is absolutely massive in my work as well just as far as keeping me going and interested in soccer and it gives me something to look forward to particularly after a crappy U.S. performance it's nice to share it with some friends, even if you guys can't hear me yelling at the radio. I do have one more question. It doesn't relate much to what we were talking about, but just something that I want to know. You mentioned on your podcast, you got kicked out of the seminary. Why did you get kicked out of seminary?

What did you do? Well, we're already at a hundred or we're already at a 71 minutes. If it's complicated, we'll have you back on. Oh, man. Going through the lives that I've lived, it's, I grew up in a very, what I would describe as a conservative fundamentalist Christian household. From very early on, I was told I was going to be a pastor. And I won't say told.

I was encouraged. How's that? And it was pushed constantly. And so whenever I graduated from high school, I went to seminary because that's what I thought I was going to do. And I'm like this 17, 18 year old dude. And you pulled me out of this very tightly controlled. conservative household, and you put me on a place where there's young ladies. And I was thrilled

to meet young ladies. But my seminary did not want me to appreciate the young ladies as much as I wanted to appreciate them. And those young ladies wanted to appreciate me. So we appreciated each other, and that seminary did not like that. So you were wildcatting around the seminary, basically. Listen, I'm just saying that I was spreading the gospel of some sort. It was a good time. I was having, everyone was having a good time, except for the people. people in charge of the seminary. Okay. And so after two and a half years, so I lasted a long time, and basically my entire friend

group got kicked out of that, including one of my girlfriends, were all kicked out, and I was also kicked out. And so I ended up going off to a liberal university getting a degree in English. So why not? Yeah. So it's a seminary you go to straight out of high school. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, they're lost. The ward's loss. I was, I was preaching. You know what I'll say. it's interesting, and I know I'm long-winded here, and if anyone still listen to this, you're a sicko. What I'll say is, I think that the things that attracted me to ministry are things that I still do in my life, caring about the people that are around me, trying to benefit them in some way,

somehow. If it's first my family, then my friends, then strangers, if it's given a dollar to the guy begging outside of the store, if it's helping someone, you know, get their groceries, into their car. Those are things that a good person does and those are things that attracted me to ministry as a young man. And I would say as now a middle-aged man, it is things that I try to apply in my life regardless because you should try to be a good person regardless of what the reward is. And we live in a country that's massively split right now. And it is a good thing to be a good person to the people that you can impact because you cannot control most of what's going on.

If I can make someone's life better in the moment, then that's what I'm going to do. And I don't care what their politics are. That's to me being a good person. It's about being a good neighbor. It's about being a good American. That's what it is. It's being a citizen of the world and caring about the people around you. Before it was dressed up in religion and there was all kinds of rules about it.

But now as an adult, I see it as it's just what you should do as a person. So that's the gospel I preach now. So why not? Here, here. Thank you. Hey, this was a lot of fun, Dan. Thanks for doing this. We've got to get you back soon.

You are, I will tell you that it was an absolute pleasure, and I would love to come on. If it's to talk about seminary, if it's to talk about lower league, or if it's talk about the national team, always down to do it. You guys are friends to me, and you guys are in the grind with me, man. I love you guys. Thank you so much for what you do. Thanks, brother. Thanks, everybody for listening. We'll see you.