Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #591: Sounder at Heart's Jeremiah Oshan joins the pod

Episode Date: May 2, 2025

The guy behind Sounder at Heart and SB Nation's soccer coverage is running an independent shop in Seattle now. He joins to talk about that, about the real Brian Schmetzer, how pro/rel might play out in the Pacific Northwest, his grandmother's high school career in South Dakota, and much more.Send us a voicemail: www.speakpipe.com/ScuffedPodcast Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Scuff Podcast where we talk about U.S. Soccer. Our guest today is the founder and owner of one of the most recognizable media brands in the domestic soccer universe. He was a copy editor at the Monterey Herald and the Oakland Tribune, oversaw around 60 soccer blogs for SB Nation for about a decade, and now runs his own operation covering soccer in Seattle, which includes Sounder at heart, Nose Audietes. Is that how you pronounce it? Yeah, close enough.

I would say you're better than most. And right of the Valkyries. Jeremiah O'Shaan, welcome to scuffed. Thank you. I appreciate the intro. I'm a long-time listener, so this is a pretty exciting for me. I'll be honest. Yeah, you're a good friend of the pot for sure.

You've helped us out a lot. I mentioned the copy editor stuff because that's, to me, that's, you know, you're legit. You're a legit, you're a legit mainstream journalist. You know? Yeah, I don't know. I think you have a more impressive mainstream background than I do, but I did work in newspapers for 10 years. I was actually the sports editor for a spell at my first job in Victorville, California,

tiny paper called the Victorville Daily Press. And I was in and out of sports in my newspaper career, but I was the last three or four years of my newspaper career were as a, like a copy editor, at a at a Bay Area newspaper chain. Okay. In the news side. I think maybe people don't realize how important copy editors are because you're not just going through the copy and making sure that there aren't any grammatical errors.

You're like designing the pages, writing the headlines. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we try to sometimes, like, it's funny. There's a, this is shop talk now, but there's two kind of, there's kind of two levels of copy editors. One are the folks that are sort of going through and giving it a final read for

literal just copy and fixing mistakes. And then there's another level that happens behind that that are sometimes making wholesale changes or suggesting much bigger changes to copy. I very rarely got involved in that part of it. But it's the world of copy editing is a, it's funny because that's one of the things that's gotten lost, I think, in the in sort of the in the downsizing of the newsroom is copy editors have been some of the first to lose jobs. And it's also oftentimes treated as a secondary position and not super important. But I don't know. I think it gave me a good foundation anyway.

We love shop talk on the podcast. Oh, good. So, you know, yeah, I think, obviously everything's changed at newspapers. Like, it used to be all about what was on the front page. and it took a long time for newspapers to unlearn that sort of way of thinking. But while that was still the case, you know, what the copy editor did, specifically the A1 copy editor, the one who was sort of figuring out how to write the headlines and stuff. Arguably the most important job in the newsroom.

I mean, it's right up there. I mean, I think, I like to think it was, yeah, I thought it was pretty important at times. I'll tell you, though, my favorite, my, my singular, I'll, I share this story a lot, But my singular favorite headline I ever wrote was Sick Boy Wants Stolen Dog Returned. I just thought it was the perfect headline. It fit the space perfectly, but it also just told the story so straightforwardly. And I remember when I wrote it, it was almost as a joke. And I showed it to some people and they're like, no, that's perfect.

And it's always stood out to me as sort of like, that's what you want in a headline. You just want to give as much of the story. Like, I want to read that story. Yeah. Yeah, I want to read it too. Can I read it later? Can you send it? Yeah, I'll look for it.

All right. So a little bit more shop talk. So you managed to get Sounder at heart out from under the SB Nation umbrella. I did, yeah. And made it a successful independent operation. How did you do that? How did, like, was it something you planned for when you first joined SB Nation? Did you, like, write something into the contract?

No. How did that exactly happen? So I'll be lucky is really the answer there. But the backstory of Sounder at heart is it was, it was, actually started as an independent site by a guy named Dave Clark, who you may, who has a name in the, in the, you know, local soccer space. So Dave Clark created this website, I think, in 2009, right, when the Sounders, or maybe 2008, when they were just getting into MLS. And it was, it existed outside of SB Nation. And then in 2010, uh, Steve Davis, who is another person who

you might know from the American soccer media sphere, the Dallas guy. The Dallas guy. Yeah, he was, he was the first soccer hire by SB Nation, and he was tasked with sort of filling out their soccer space. And one of the first sites that he recruited was Dave on Sounder Heart. So he brought Dave onto the SB Nation platform in 2010. And as you probably know, the SB Nation, SB Nation that we know now was a very different operation in 2010. There was no such thing as Vox.com.

Vox Media was not a thing yet. And so it was a very sort of, you know, casual relationship, really. I mean, essentially, there was no, I don't know how many contracts there really were, but they brought them on. And then around the same time, I hooked up with Dave as as then an out of work journalists saying, hey, I just want something to do. Will you let me write for your site?

And I started and I got involved there. And as, as, I hope people find this interesting. But as people, as people may remember, 2010 was not a good time to be working in the, in the journalism industry, it was pretty bleak. And I ended up being unemployed essentially for two years, but I used that time to basically build up my resume on Sounder at Heart. And then as luck would have it, when my unemployment was getting ready to run out,

SB Nation had a job that they were able to offer me. And it wasn't a great job, but it got me working as a journalist. And at the same time, I got a job covering the Sounders for MLS Soccer. I was the beatwriter for MLSsocker.com. and that sort of like got me started on this as a real career. And and so I eventually rose out in 2014,

I was hired to be the editor, the manager of all the soccer blogs at SB Nation. And I did that for about 10, almost 10 years. Yeah. And basically what happened was SB Nation had just decided that they, they weren't that interested in covering the domestic soccer scene anymore in around 2003, which was oddly timed for the World Cup. It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

And I basically told my boss, like, I don't really want to, I don't really want to do this anymore. And I would love it if we could figure out a way for me to leave and keep Sounder at heart. And they basically said that we think we can figure this out. And I'm not going to get into all the details, but basically we were able to just, they essentially were willing to let me take Sounder at heart, mainly because I had a decent relationship with the company. And I was being sort of a good soldier, essentially. I see.

Yeah. I mean, there's something to be said for being a good soldier, right? Yeah, I don't know if I would necessarily, I mean, and I think that's one of the things I also feel a little guilty about is that I, so I've, I do work. This is my full-time job. I make actually a pretty decent living doing this. I, I'm able to pay for, you know, we have something like 12 different contractors who, who we paid enough that they actually had to get a, actually had to file taxes for it.

And, you know, no one's getting rich off this. But the only reason we're able to do this is because we basically created this brand over the course of almost 15 years that we were essentially giving away for free. And then, and so when we said, hey, we're now reader supported. People actually wanted to support it because they didn't want it to go away. And so we kind of got lucky. I mean, it's a lot of hard work. Don't get me wrong. But I'm not going to sit here and say it was some genius move on my part either.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that's a lot, a similar story with scub. where, like, most of the people who are paying us every month are paying us because, you know, as, like, a goodwill offering, essentially. And, um. But they like what you're, I mean, they like what, I don't want to say people seem to like what we do. So I'm not trying to discount that. I just don't know that there's a, you know, if I was starting this from scratch, it would be a very different, a very different endeavor, I think.

Yeah. Okay. So let's imagine that for every team in the league, there was someone with you and your team's experience and ability level. and who were determined to run an independent operation like yours. How many of the markets do you think there are where it would be financially viable? Seattle seems a little unusual. It does seem unusual. I think it is unusual.

I don't know how many other markets. Like, I would think, like, it's an interesting thing because I think you sort of need a mix of things. It needs to be a big enough market where there is a real fan base, right? But it has to be sort of irrelevant enough not to be overwhelmed by the more mainstream coverage, right? It's like if you have ESPN and the local newspaper and the local TV channels covering your team every day that feels like less important to have a site like ours filling in that, you know, providing that level of coverage. And we're a little lucky in that, you know, the Seattle Times does have a beat writer who covers us, but she splits her time with the with the rain. And, you know, and so we're able to sort of be the best.

Honestly, I don't think I'm speaking out of turn. I think we're the best site outlet covering both the rain and the sounders in part because we have sort of this fan ethos of just being passionate about it, that it's hard to replicate. But if there was 10 other publications competing with us, I don't know if we would, you know, if we would still stand out. And so I think there sort of, it's like this. I don't think there are any markets where there are 10 outlets competing to cover the. Right. I agree. They're not, not the MLS team.

Not the MLS team. I mean, we probably have the most. coverage of any MLS team, frankly. But I'm just saying that like if you go to, it would be harder for us to do this if we were covering the Krakken, I guess is sort of like the more of the

point I'm making or the Seahawks or whatever. But yeah, I guess in MLS, like I would imagine, I know the guys in Atlanta that are doing it. I would, if I was investing in a market that could turn into this,

I would probably invest in Atlanta first. I think Portland has that. The dirty south. The dirty south one. Yeah, they're no longer, Dirty South Soccer still does exist, but the guys who ran Dirty South Soccer and now are doing five-stripe final,

I think they do a great job. And there's a couple other sites there that are doing, that are also former Dirty South Soccer guys who are, I believe scarves and stripes, I think is another one. But I think there's a potential there. I think maybe a market like Nashville might be able to make it work. I mean, it's interesting. I think it has sort of to do with what the outlet is.

And I think you need to have like the talent I think is almost as important as anything else. And so I don't know. I could probably go. There's probably a handful, but it's definitely not 30. There's no way it's 30. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Let's let's move on from the shop talk a little bit. What's Brian Schmetser really like? He seems like a friendly dad figure. Is that really what he is? I know he gives, he definitely gives off that vibe. It's interesting. I've now known Brian for 15 years, basically ever since I started covering the Sounders. Like I knew him reasonably well when he was an assistant.

I was really excited when he got elevated from assistant coach to the Sounder's main head coach. And I think I know him probably as well as anyone in the media does. And there's definitely multiple sides of the guy. I think he is more complicated than his public persona is. I think he can be a little less warm and fuzzy when things get tense. But these are, you know, these are predictable things, right? He's an interesting guy, though. I think he has, I think it's interesting because I think in one way he cultivates this persona

where he's just a happy go lucky, hey, I'm just the caretaker coach. And I think he does actually work to cultivate that in some ways. but I think he also gets frustrated that as a result of that he doesn't get the credit that I think he probably feels he deserves in terms of being one of the most successful coaches in MLS history. And it's not like he just fell into this job. You know, he had to put a lot of work in. He still puts in a lot of work. And so I think it's an interesting, I think he's a much more multifaceted personality in both good and bad ways than it comes off from the distance. That's interesting that he's been so successful in that image cultivation.

the image of the, you know, sort of good-natured caretaker. Yeah. That it's almost, that he's frustrated by how well that's succeeded. I do, and I really, I really do think that's sort of at the root of a lot of this is I think he would like people to recognize his, maybe not genius, but his ability more than his persona allows. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.

Kind of a, kind of a Jimmy Stewart figure a little bit, you know? Yeah. But with glasses. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, he's been working hard at the building and loan, you know? Right. Exactly. Yeah, you know, and I think that's, you've seen this a lot, I think.

Anyone that's successful, I think they, I'm sure you find this with a lot of actors, too, where they give off this persona of like, hey, man, I'm just, I'm just happy to be a working actor. And then at some point, they go, well, yeah, but I mean, I would like to win. an Oscar. I feel like I kind of deserve that. I've been in good roles. Why does no one recognize that I'm in these good roles, you know? Yeah. Well, what is, so how wide is his range of emotion? Like, well, he, I know he's like snapped at, he snaps at a reporter now and then who asks a question he doesn't like, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, he, I would say he can be,

I mean, he can be petty. He can be, you know, I'll, I'll share a, one of my eye-opening experiences with him was during COVID, I, when they were down in in Orlando for the MLS's back tournament, there was a it's funny to go back and think about those times, but there was definitely a

feeling among a very vocal part of the Sounders fan base that they, the Sounders should not go. Like they, it was irresponsible for them to participate in this tournament. And there were, you know, I think fans were excited to see them play, but also really, you know, the,

mood around the everywhere was crazy right and and so they lost their second maybe was their first game and i wrote how the sounders looked like they didn't want to be there and that they you know they they just didn't seem to really have their hearts in the competition and then they ended up advancing out of the group stage with a really resounding performance in their final game and i asked him something among the lines of, you know, there was, there was a perception that maybe you guys didn't really want to be there. Do you think this answers that question? And he said, well, who said that? I was like, oh, I don't know. And I was sort of joking, thinking he knew exactly that I was the one who said that. And that turned into a whole thing. And he got, and he ended up

going on the radio and sort of trashing me for trying to get out of responsibility. And I was like, no, I wasn't trying to get out of responsibility. I thought we were joking. And then I got, I took at this call from the PR guy, and he's like, no, he's really bad. I'm like, there's no way he's really mad. And it turned into this whole thing. And I sort of, it was this sort of like object lesson of no, he does take this. Like, we're not all joking around here. This is a real job. And he's like, we aren't, we aren't, I'm not as as friendly with him as maybe I perceived and certainly not in a public facing environment like that. And that was sort of a big lesson for me professionally. And I would say that sort of has informed a lot of my interactions with him over

the last five years, funnily enough, where he can be, you know, there are, like he doesn't, he definitely does not like to be just, if he feels like he's being disrespected or is, his authority is being challenged, I think that's one of the other common areas. You know, one of my colleagues, Nico Marano, oftentimes will do reporting on the team that he doesn't like and and Brian will let will make known that he's not appreciating the sort of questions that he's asking yeah yeah and it's and it comes on you know and sometimes if you watch enough of his press conferences you can see when he's being prickly but he can definitely you know get annoyed with reporters and and I don't know it's kind of an interesting little dynamic but this is

what happens when someone's been in his job for as long as he has I suppose Does Jordan Morris ever bring his dog to train? We literally, literally have never seen Jordan Morris's dog at training. It's funny, I was thinking about this recently because it kind of came up about the Jordan Morris dog thing. And in hindsight, it's such a silly idea that his dog played any part at all in his decision. It somehow became part of the sort of the story around Jordan is that his, dog was a major reason that he didn't go to Germany. And I think it was always said somewhat tongue and cheek, but it sort of took on a

a reality element. Well, Jermaine Jones is the one who said it, right? Jermaine Jones is the one who said he was going to go to Europe, but he loved his dog too much. Yeah, I mean, he added a few. I mean, that was sort of a thing that was out in the world before that, but he definitely gave that voice in a way that was honestly really mean and, in like, unfair. I actually wrote about that interview after it happened.

I was actually appalled at how how crass I thought it was to a fellow U.S. national team player at the time, if I remember correctly. Yeah. And it was, I mean, it was, it was an insulting interview from top to bottom. And I don't know that Jermaine Jones has exactly covered himself in glory in the way that he. Yeah, ever since then. So maybe it shouldn't have been so surprising. But it was kind of a, it was a funny narrative that was out there. And I think it picked up a lot of steam.

and I was just thinking about how how like clearly the dog had literally nothing to do. Like he wanted to be home. I think there was an element of him being comfortable here and I think he is sort of a home body at heart and I think his family being here was a big part of it. I think being comfortable with the Sounders was a big part of it. I don't think he was emotionally ready

to go to Germany and compete and do all those kind of things. It's an interesting alternate timeline and I know he's been sort of compared to Josh Sargent a lot because they were sort of coming up sort of around the same time, and they went in obviously totally different directions. But I just, I think Jordan made the decision that was, well, there were a couple years apart. Yeah, I mean, what, he was the rookie of the year in 16, right?

Yeah. How old is Sergeant? Sergeant was like, he played in the U-17 World Cup in 2017. Okay, so maybe they were more like four years. They may have been more like four years. Yeah, four or five years. In any case, he went straight to Europe, essentially. It was sort of like, here's a striker who went straight to Europe.

To the same club that Morris was rumored to have some interest from. Right. I mean, and they really did have interest. My understanding is like they were ready to sign him. But the thing is that who knows what happens to Jordan. Like he wasn't going to be walking onto the field to get minutes, I don't think, for Werdererman. So it was going to be. It was going to be, you know, he was going to have to fight for his time there.

And playing in MLS was a much more direct path to playing time. And he was familiar with the setup here. Again, and I just don't know that he has the personality. He certainly at 20, 21 years old, I don't think he had the personality that was going to really thrive in that sort of environment at that time. It's a tough go, man. It's a tough go. People minimize it. But yeah, to go all the way over there and figure out your life.

everybody says it's been tough yeah i mean i think a more interesting alternate timeline is if he doesn't get hurt when he goes to swansea city on loan right because that would i think that was like i know when he took that loan i i assumed that was the last that he would play for the sounders because it he was going to

it felt like he was going to tear it up there yeah i mean he was coming off his best year of his career he had absolutely dominated mLS in 2020 during the covid year and it looked like he was just ready to take off. And, you know, he only, I think he played three or four games. Yeah.

Before he blew it out his knee. He's a really nice guy, isn't he? He is a really nice guy. He is a, he is one of the genuine, he is one of the players, like, in, in contrast to Brian, who I'm not saying is a bad person by any such of imagination. But he really is, everything I've gathered with Jordan, what you see is what you get. like he he is still a professional athlete so he still has sort of personality traits that you would assign to a professional athlete but he is as humble and he he just is he he really does go out of his way to be polite and he is like I've never seen him be disrespectful to any frankly to anybody uh outside of the you know every media member and he doesn't he doesn't that doesn't make him the most interesting person I'll be honest like he's not always the most compelling person. Maybe you'd like him to be a little more disrespectful every now and then. You might.

I mean, and sort of he's made a thing about how he's trying to sort of like channel a little bit more angry energy, at least on the field. And we have seen that come out in the last couple years. And I do appreciate that. But yeah, he's not the, he's not the most interesting person to write about because he just doesn't, he's pretty, you know, he doesn't say a lot of controversial things. He doesn't say anything controversial. But he just doesn't say that much that's interesting really either. So, I don't know. It's an interesting person to try to cover.

The Sounders have been really successful over the last 15 years, if you take it all together. Which of those eras was the most exciting? You know, which season was the most exciting? And specifically which player slash players in the way they were playing were the most transcendent. I think virtually every Sounders fan, everyone who covered the team will probably tell you that 2014-2015, was the most compelling narrative around the team. They hadn't won MLS Cup yet. They had Clint and they had Oba Femmy Martins.

They made this amazing partnership on the field. They had some interesting personalities on the team outside of them. And I'll be honest, like Clint and Ova were total duds as far as I was concerned in terms of like personalities. It's very funny to see Clint be the way that he is now on national television because we did not get an inkling. like an inkling of that personality when he would talk to us in the press. And one of the funny things about Clint I always think about is, I want to say in maybe 2005 or so, he did this video with U.S. soccer where him and Eddie Johnson go out to a barbecue joint in Kansas City or some random barbecue joint.

And he is, this is before he's gone to Europe and he's all, he's all happy, go lucky. He's giving Eddie Johnson a hard time for not taking a doggy bag. and he's just, he's Clint. He's Clint the way that you see him now. And something happened between his time moving to Europe and him coming back to MLS, where he was essentially, he essentially taught himself or he was, he was forced to learn that having a personality can have negative consequences.

And I think he really just decided that he was going to be as bland as he could possibly be. And somehow he turned that into a, he managed to still like, keep his brand alive. And I think he's probably the most beloved national team player in American Soccer history. I think he, and I think even more so now, and it's just amazing to think that he managed to just turn that off.

And then he could just flip a switch and be that guy again once he got back on TV. Because he is, again, a very interesting person, I think, on CBS. But when he was here in Seattle, he was not. I mean, he went almost to great pain. not to be that guy. He did, I almost, I was at the point at the end of his tenure here, I, I, I oftentimes wouldn't even participate in the scrums because it was just a waste of time. It was almost always more, like I could just get the same, I could get the, like there was no questions I felt like I could ask him that would get a more interesting answer than what he was

already prepared to give. Like he had sort of his talking points and that was what he stuck to. And, and so that's, and I'll say another thing that was kind of a surreal thing. you know, in 20, I want to say it was in 2018 when he, was that his last year here? I think it was his last year here. And he, you know, he retired at the end, like before the end of the season. I don't know if folks remember that, but he abruptly retired, essentially. And it sort of left the sound. And essentially what happened is he was told he wasn't going to be a starter anymore.

And so he wasn't really interested in continuing to play, which is his right, right? But the Sounders brought him back for sort of a retirement ceremony. And him and his family are on the field, he does not say a word. He does not say thank you. He does not have a prepared speech. He just waves to the crowd and he lets everyone else do the talking. And he walks off the field and that's it. And that's the last we sort of heard from him in the local media.

And we didn't hear from him. He didn't give us an interview. He didn't talk to the media afterward. He didn't talk to the media beforehand. And he was just like, peace, I'm out. And that was the end of it. And I was like he didn't really want to do the ceremony in the first place, which, I mean, I don't know, whatever.

That's his, that's his prerogative. That's his right. So I was shocked when he sort of showed back up on the national scene. And he's like, no, I'm ready to be, I'm ready to be deuce again. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe he didn't feel that strongly about Seattle as a, as a. Maybe not.

I mean, he was here longer than he was anywhere else in his career. And that's what's, yes. Is that right. Yeah, I mean, he came here in 2013. He was here for five seasons, parts of five seasons. I'm almost positive. That's the longest he was here. He was here longer.

I'm pretty sure, because I remember, I'm pretty sure I wrote about that, that he was here longer than anywhere else. And yet you don't really associate him with the sounders, in part because that was the bulk of his, he was much more focused on the national team when he was here. It was very obvious. You know, that the national team was definitely his primary focus when he was here. and the sounders were sort of the way he stayed in shape.

And, you know, he lived here. He had, he owned a house here, but basically as soon as he retired, he sold the house. Like, I don't, I think by the time he had the ceremony back here, he had already sold his house. And so he was, you know, so I don't think he ever felt at home here, really. He, my understanding is he almost never, he didn't really go out. He, you know, he was great. I mean, he's just sort of a, a. family man. He's got he's got five kids. I'll tell you another little funny anecdote, though,

is in 2017, I was on, I took the, the Sounders chartered a jet for media and friends and family to take him out to MLS Cup. And so I was on the same plane as his wife and kids, and he has five kids. Is that right? I think it's five. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really know. That's the number I keep hearing. Yeah. So I think the oldest at the time was made. maybe a 13 year old girl, and then he has like a, whatever, 13 to like three was the youngest or something like that. Let's just for the sake of this conversation. And, and you would expect a player like that to have sort of an entourage following around his family, like a nanny, somebody else. And it was just his wife managing these five kids, like honestly effortly. Like I was amazed.

I was blown away at how well she was handling these kids. And it was. And it was like a whole range of ages. And she was just non, you know, and it wasn't like this disconnected, you know, like she just couldn't, it wasn't that she didn't care. It was just that she handled it. She, she totally had a handle on it. And I thought that that must have said something about the way their home life is, which is not this big, ostentatious life. And I've seen, you know, he lived in a nice house, but it wasn't a mansion by any stretch of the imagination. It was just a nice suburban home.

And I think they lived a pretty normal life and it was pretty non-ostentatious. And it was like he liked having cookouts in his backyard. And he just didn't feel like the need to have a public persona at that time. And it worked out for him. And so, but anyway, that was the most interesting team. That was the most fun team. They were a lot of fun to watch. Watching someone, a mother or a father, effortlessly manage five children is,

I have incredible respect for that. Yeah. Yeah, at the time I had a lot of work goes into that behind the scenes. Right, exactly. And I had like, you know, I have two kids who are now 12 and 9. So not they were, but it's like I could certainly, I had kids at the time. I could certainly respect how much work that must have been. And I was very impressed with how she handled it.

So they, Deuce was on the team that won the final, the cup final in the MLS Cup final in 2016. He was, yeah. But not on the 2019. team or was he? He was not on the 20, you know, he had retired. I think the year before,

I think, I'm pretty sure he retired in 2018. Yeah, because he retired the first year, Rue Diaz was on the team. That was 2018. But yeah, so he,

so he was on the 2016 team, but he didn't play in that game because that's when his heart issue started. And, and then in 2017, they were in MLS Cup final again, and he was on that team, and they got,

they got trounced by Toronto. See, that was like, old-time Toronto FC team. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was always, it was just like Seattle versus Toronto every, every fall for a yeah, there was three of them, three finals. It was pretty wild.

When Vancouver succeeds like they're succeeding right now, what's the, what's the mood in Seattle? You know, I mean, I'm talking about Vancouver just knocking into Miami out of the Concaf Champions Cup. They're the top team in MLS right now by points. Yeah, I mean, I think it illustrates the difference. So this is a three-team rivalry, right, between the Sounders, timbers, and white caps. And I think it sort of illustrates how much of a third wheel the white caps are sort of in that rivalry.

They're really legitimately part of the rivalry, but they are not the focus of either team. I don't think at all. Like, I'm, I'm, right, I'm rooting for the white caps. I hope they win. I think it's a great story. If it was the timbers, I would be rooting as hard as I possibly could against it. Not that it obviously makes a difference. But that's sort of, I think, illustrates the difference in the place and the rivalry.

Like, I want the white caps to do well. I don't want them to beat the Sounders. I never want them to be better than the Sounders. But the Sounders don't have a way of winning this thing. And if the Whitecaps do it, I do think there's like a certain, like, I like, I like the idea that only two MLS teams have won the modern version of Concord. Or will have won the modern version of this tournament. And they're both Cascadia teams.

Like, I take pride in that. I wouldn't be feeling the same level of pride if it was the Timbers. Yeah. Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I guess it makes sense. So how's everybody feeling about the World Cup coming to town? Is there a sense of excitement about that or not?

I mean, I guess it's hard to say. Because if there is anywhere in the country, you would think it would be able to. I don't feel it right now. Yeah. Well, that's, I mean, I don't feel it. I'll be on. Like, I, when the Sounders or when Seattle got the World Cup, whenever that announcement was made, it was full-blown, unbridled excitement.

everyone, any, like, all the problems that we knew were going to be coming along with it, we, we didn't care. We, oh, there's going to be a police state in Seattle. Who cares? There's going to be all this public money going to, who cares? There's going to be, you know, the ticket's going to be so expensive. Who cares? It doesn't matter.

This is a once in a lifetime experience. And over time, I think, and I don't know how much of that, the reality of all those things, have started to settle in, or if it's just that the excitement around the tournament itself and the national team has just sort of diminished in the last couple years. I mean, there is a almost palpable sense of, of, there is no buzz. Let me put it that way. Like the Club World Cup is coming this summer. The sounders are in it.

They're hosting games. And there's virtually no buzz even about that, although there might be a little bit more juice in that than the like it's it's it's still every time i hear that the u.s national team is going to be playing a game in seattle it's like a wait it's like a oh i've forgotten about that type of like in this kind like just now i had that same sort of that same real-time realization and i don't have a good explanation of why it is other than i i know for me personally my my engagement in the national team has just cratered in the last year or two and i don't think it's just results. I think there's a lot going on there that has made it a tougher follow.

Like what? Well, I mean, I'll tell you, I think for me, honestly, this is, and I don't know, maybe I'm too sensitive about this, but the, the moment that Pulisic did the Trump dance and then followed that up by acting like he didn't understand what people were even asking about and then was like, oh, it was just something I saw on TikTok. It was such a punch in the gut of, on of we like all i had never felt more disconnected to a group of players than i did in that moment and it was and it wasn't that he like i think we always knew that where his politics were it was sort of the brazenness with which he just threw it out there and that there was really no there was there was there was it was just sort of like i guess that's where that's the state of the world right now kind of thing and i don't know just and so i i think you couple that with the results. Like maybe if they were winning games, you'd be like, ah, who cares? These guys,

they all have their own right to, and they do. They all have their own right to be, have their politics, wherever they want to be. And, and so I don't want to, and I'm not judging the politics of it. I'm more judging the brazenness of it being, like, like the complete unawareness that this might be a divisive thing to do. And, and not really seeming to care about that. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I mean,

if he had done like a Biden dance or something, if there was a Biden dance. And he had, I mean, it's hard to, it's a, not enough factor for you or, you know, I mean, I, I think you speak for a lot of people. I'm not like trying to put you on an island here. No, I don't speak for a lot of folks on that. I, I mean, I think it's, it's one, it's hard to decouple the, like, there is no equivalent to that, right? There is no, I mean, I guess you could say, I don't know, if he had said, if he had just

said at the end, if he had pulled up his shirt and said, vote Biden. And then, and then it's, I'm, I'm an idiot. Vote Gamala. Um, yeah. And, uh, and, and, and then when he asked, asked about it said, oh, I don't know, is that what it said? Hmm. Yeah. I mean, that would be pretty.

It was pretty, the way he, uh, I think, yeah, I think it was the, his reaction to it was more the, like the dance is what, I mean, whatever, like, you, you want to do the dance, do the dance, but then to do it like, oh, oh, I didn't know. I don't even know where I got it from kind of thing. Like, what are we doing here exactly? Yeah, he said, what exactly did he say? He said that he just thought it was a fun dance, right? Yeah.

Or something like that. Right. Yeah. A fun dance popularized by an 80-year-old man. Yes, that's the thing that the kids are all doing these days. Yeah. I mean, the kids are maybe doing it more than the 40-year-olds, I would say. but any other reasons besides those two bad results sort of i mean i do think that there was

some scar tissue from the whole the boxing match the the the sort of the like it was really fun i'll be honest like when when geogate was sort of coming out i was as engaged in you like your guys's show was so fun and so it was just like hearing Vince just go off on all these things and going down all these crazy conspiracy like I don't know conspiracy theories are the wrong way but like just following all these threads you can call them conspiracy theories yeah it was a fun it was a lot of fun uh I don't want to like I was I was it was must listen stuff I was super into it and I think you guys did a really good job of handling it I I think I reached out to you probably,

I probably reached out to you more times during that era than any other era. And I was, I mean, I was listening all the time. But I do think there was some scar tissue that was built up from that as well. And some, and a lot of, because I think a lot of camps got built that were,

a lot of entrenchment happened. That was hard to sort of reconcile once it was all, once the dust settled. And like once Greg got fired, it was sort of a, oh, so what are we doing now? And I think,

really where I can chart my disengagement really probably like I don't think I've been I think I like I've barely been able to follow the teams since Portitino was hired even though it seems like it was a good hire but it also felt like I don't know there was it felt like nothing was the same after sort of after once the dust settled from from that whole situation and I don't think anyone's really I don't know who I would blame for that but it just felt like a lot there was a lot of ugliness that got sort exposed during that period that is hard to come back from. Yeah.

Among the fan, you know, and that's sort of like fan on fan violence type stuff. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess I feel like with any team and particularly with the U.S. men's national team, I have to feel like there is something, I like to feel that there is something coming, something good coming around the corner, you know? And that was for a while all these players sort of settling into their clubs and then becoming national team contributors. And that happened. And we did pretty well at the 2022 World Cup.

Then it was like kind of, well, Gio getting healthy and sort of becoming the transcendent player that I believe he can be if he's healthy. And that's never happened. And it doesn't look like he's on the path to getting healthy. Well, I mean, I think there was a lot of, or Balagan being that player. or, you know, you can kind of go down the list of players who we thought were going to, or Musa, frankly, blowing up. Like, there was a, there was a whole list of players who it felt like could be sort of transcendent national team stars in terms of their ability to break through it. Or Pulisic, even. Like, it's funny, Pulisic has had by almost any reasonable accounting, a very successful run at A.C. Milan.

And maybe, maybe, maybe the most successful run of a. probably the most successful run of an American player in Europe ever. And it sort of, I think that's accurate. Yeah. And weirdly, it doesn't seem like it's translated to performances with the national team at the same. Like,

he's had great performances with the national team. I think he was very good in the World Cup. I think he, you know, he's had, you can find moments where he were games or stretches that he's been really good. But it weirdly hasn't coincided with him becoming like a real star at ASEM Milan. And I think that's another thing that's been kind of a,

you know, like, I mean, the fact that the results have been bad hurts. And I think, but I think, but it does kind of trump everything. No, no pun intended. Yeah. And I, and I think it's also, we're at a time when it's hard to be, I think in, you know, in the first, again, not to make this political, but I, if I'm, if I'm unpacking this for myself, in the first Trump era, he didn't seem to care about the, about soccer so much. And so the fact that we were excited about an American soccer team during the Trump administration didn't feel like they were at odds with one another.

It didn't feel weird to be nationalistic about your soccer team, even though we had a, even if you weren't nationalistic about the country, right? But Trump has really made a point of embracing soccer in part because, you know, like the fact that he has the club World Cup. trophy sitting in his office every day. Sorry for the, like, it's such a gross politicalization of all this. And I'm not, not to be naive about it, but that's like a pretty impressive symbol for if this is now an inescapably linked thing, that the U.S. is going to be hosting the World Cup is another part of it that I think makes it different. And so it feels a little harder to be excited about the national team when you're so grossed out about the state of your nation, I guess.

Yeah, I can understand that. Sorry. No, that's okay. No, that's okay. I mean, I think a lot of people disagree with you, but a lot of people agree with that, you know, so it's like, I mean, I think if you, I think there's also something to be said about the main, like, soccer has become more mainstream, right? In the, in the time that we've been covering, like, when I first,

started covering soccer in 2010, soccer was pretty far outside the mainstream. And Seattle was one of the few places where it felt like a mainstream sport. And over the course of the next 15 years, it's become a much more mainstream thing. And I think that for a lot of people like myself who got into soccer early on, there was this homogeneity about who your fellow fans were that was not the same. If you're a Seahawks fan, you just sort of accepted that most, that a lot of people didn't agree with you politically. And, and that.

Well, you're also in Seattle, which is like, you know, pretty. Yeah, sure. It's not a normal place in America. No, but I, I mean, I can say that. What you expect from your fellow fans in the, what is it called, the ECS? Yeah. Is like, is a little different from what I think even soccer fans and other parts of the country expect from each other.

But I think even if you go back to like when the, you know, the. American Outlaws were founded, right? And you can say, like, they are probably farther right than ECS, but they weren't a right-wing organization, right? Like, there was no, if any, and if they, they were pretty apolitical for them. And, and in fact, offshoot groups popped up because they thought they were too far left, right? There were little offshoot groups that pop. And so I think that sort of illustrated, like, in American Outlaws were a relatively mainstream, you know, relatively mainstream organization. We're getting way off.

I'm going to get us into Let's go. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. And so I think American, I think I sort of illustrated though the way that even in like the mainstream supporter culture, which was very Midwestern sort of like fans and maybe in the South, and like even among them, you would find more left-leaning politics than you

would find in society at large. And I think as just as a result of the mainstreaming of American soccer, that has level, that's equalized somewhat. And I think that's been, so it's been kind of a tougher. So it doesn't, it's, it's not a safe space anymore. You know what I mean? Which is fine, which is maybe more healthy in, in a lot of ways. But I think it has tamped down some of the excitement of people who would have otherwise been

hardcore into this whole thing because they just don't feel like it's there's quite, as much theirs as it used to be. Yeah, interesting. Let's talk a little bit more about the Pacific Northwest, because it has this unusual density of professional soccer teams, and then you've also got nine USL League two teams in the area. It's kind of an interesting testing ground for ProREL. You've written about this at some length recently.

Yeah. Why do people in the Northwest like soccer so much, first of all? That's a great question. I kind of asked, you know, I had Representative Rick Larsson. on here. Yeah. And his answer was that it rains all the time and people made their kids go outside, which I found somewhat unsatisfying as an answer.

But maybe that's all it is. You know, what do you think is the reason? I mean, there's a lot of places that you can go outside a lot, right? Like, I don't, I,

I listened to the interview. I thought you handled it really well. I thought that was a good interview. Just wanted to share as one podcaster to another. I think a lot of it has. to do with soccer has deeper roots here than in a lot of places. And so it's, and it's, and it's been such an immigrant community for a long time. It had, you know, like, you can, like Brian Schmester's a great illustration of this. He is a, I think, second generation, like he, he, his parents were

born here, but his grandparents, I believe, immigrated from Germany. And so his dad grew up as a soccer fan, his dad had like the local, like, Schmetscher Sport House is like a legendary thing in the Seattle soccer community because for a long time it was like the place where you could go get soccer gear, right? And this is like going back to like the 60s and 70s. And so that sort of, and so he was sort of involved in that. And they were playing in the, at least by their recollection, reasonably high level soccer, even back in the 60s and 70s. at a youth level. And in a lot of places,

you had soccer all around the country by the 70s, but that was, you know, it was, they were starting it there. They were, they were just getting, like,

it was when it was first seated was sort of in the 70s or even later. And in Seattle had been around, it had already sort of a well-established scene. And I think, so there's, I think there's, I think there's, you know,

like the, the sounders, they can talk about how they were founded in 1974, but unlike every other team, they can draw a direct, they can draw a direct lineage all the way back to that team. Like when the Sounders folded in 83, there were professional soccer teams that were still running around here.

They weren't necessarily, you know, they weren't at the same level necessarily, but a lot of those players, like you can find players, you go around the clubs here, every club essentially is run by someone who played for the Sounders or there are and this is at all different levels at the usl level at the nassl level and so i just think that there is a again like it's i just think the roots run deeper here i think it just is

it's more ingrained in the culture and and so it's just you know it's just an easier sell i think ultimately like it's not it's not seen as an exotic sport here you know i mean i noticed something similar in minneapolis when i was there is that like a lot of the people involved in the youth clubs around the city and who are like sort of soccer people in the Twin Cities used to play for the kicks or like you know

were affiliated with the kicks or Minnesota United before it became you know an MLS club so I know the dynamic you're talking about a little bit so we did a mailback show where an unusual number of the questions were from Idaho and you did a poll at Sounder at heart about where the two team should be

and enough Boise people spanned it to make it your most popular poll ever. Yeah. What is going on with Idaho? I don't know. I don't know. That caught us so off guard. This must have been like 2014 or something like that.

I don't remember exactly what year that was. But I have never been so caught off guard by something as I was caught off guard by that. Like we, I think we listed a handful of different cities that we thought would make sense. And all of a sudden we saw Boise had 80% of the results. and it was the most popular poll we'd ever run and we basically found out that some grassroots soccer organization in Boise got a hold of this poll and urged their members to vote for it and it was sort of this wake-up call like oh apparently there's this big soccer community

there's a you know engaged soccer community out in Boisey I don't know much about it still to this day you know 10 years later I still don't know a whole lot about it I think it's really interesting you know they have an interesting project that they're building out there where they have a league one team that's going in at the old I think it's the Boise Esk Expo and they're using the grandstands

from a now decommissioned horse racing track to sort of form the basic the main part of the grandstands for the soccer field and they have it like in writing that they have to expand it to 11,000 seats or something I mean that could end up being a real

it's going to be a really interesting project to follow I think for sure cool you know now you I read your article on ProREL in the Northwest and what it could mean. There are some clubs with some pretty overt ambitions about fighting for promotion, right? Can you tell us about maybe talk about Ballard or what's the one with the West Seattle Junction?

Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so the, so the, the USL League 2 team that is the most established here is Ballard FC. there run by a guy named Sam Zissette who used to play for I think he made he played college here I think he played for the Tacoma Stars indoor team but he has a lot of

connection like he was a player like a reasonably high level player and he has connections to a bunch of guys and he roped in Lamar Nagel who is also really Lamar Nagel who your readers may or may not or listeners may or not know is a former Sounders player but he had a pretty long MLS

career. He's from he's from here. And he's got Austin Brumman on the team too, right? He does have Austin. Yeah, Austin Brumman is on the team. Yeah, he's a, he was a, a Sounders Academy player way back when, uh, as well. And I think he may have played for the US, the some of the youth teams, right? He did. He made some youth, he got some youth national team caps. It was a striker, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So they've been playing for an amateur club. Right. He's playing for an amateur guy. I don't know if he's aged out of, of, college soccer yet he may be right on the edge of aging out of college soccer but yeah it's like so they're an amateur team they came in with a great launch really like they had great merch they had a

they partnered with a local brewery here and so they had a brewery as their sponsor which you know that's that's gold i i guess and they had attractive they had attractive gear and they all of a sudden we're drawing like 1,500 vans, which is crazy for USL League 2. And that was like right out of the gate. And then in year, and they were competitive right away. They had a good team. They had connections to the Sounders. And then in year two, they actually won the USL League 2 championship, which I think is the first time a team from Washington had ever won that.

And they, and so they draw these good crowds and they play at this, this cool little, you know, like neighborhood stadium. in an area called Inner Bay that is it's essentially like a glorified rec field but it's got to they can fit they have this beer garden that apparently is really popular I've still not made it out to a game

which is a little embarrassing but they have a really they have a very robust small but like engaged fan base and you know they only have to play they play eight home games a year or something like that it's all over the summer

when the weather is perfect out here and so it sets up really well And what's interesting is I assumed they were going to be all in on going into the pro pathway because they all of a sudden have a path to being really relevant and growing.

And what's interesting is they, they're more reserved and sort of like, well, we got a good thing going here. We don't really need to go pro to be viable. So why do we, we don't have to pay our players. You know, we don't have that much full-time staff.

we sort of just, we, you know, we, like, Sam works all year. That's his full-time job. But I think most of the staff is seasonal.

They just kind of gear up in the summer when they're going to have games. And they're competitive and they, so they have a nice thing going. But I would imagine that if they can get in, so we're in the middle, Seattle is remodeling Memorial Stadium, which is the original home of the Sounders. It's,

it's, like a lot of towns. It's, most of the high school football teams play their games, and they're in the middle, but it's way, way, way, it's falling apart. And now they got a bunch of money from the organization that runs the, it's in Seattle Center, which is where the Space Needle is, which is where Clement Pledge Arena is,

where the Cracken and the Storm play. And the organization that runs the, that is part owners of the Cracken has sort of taken a, a management level position in sort of remodeling Memorial Stadium. And so basically with Ballard to said is if they can get into Memorial Stadium and it makes sense, then that's how it would make sense for them to go pro. And then all of a sudden it gets kind of interesting. But some of the other, what's interesting is that some of the other USL League two teams have

been a little bit more overt, but like, oh yeah, we totally want to go pro. This is something we see as our pathway. But they don't know how practical it is for anyone else. like West Seattle Junction says they really want to go pro, but they don't really seem to know where they would play or even how it would work, but they like the idea of it.

There's a team in Bellevue called Midlakes United that sort of expressed similar sentiments, but they have even less of a like they really don't have anywhere to play. And so it's interesting to see how this is playing out. But then like in Eugene, they have a team that plays

at they just remodeled their civic park, which is now like a 3, 3,500 to 5,000 seat stadium in Eugene, and they're going to go into League 1, and they're going to, I think they're going to have a women's team as well. And so that'll be, you know, that'll be an interesting path.

And then there's a team in Olympia that has also said they want to go pro. So anyway, there's all these ideas out here of what they're going to do. I don't know how practical on Yavor more. Yeah. Well, it may be interesting if, you know, You have a lot of clubs in a small area and maybe, you know, if they do, if they do follow up on what they say they want to do, like West Seattle Junction and Midlakes United.

Yeah. Then there's a, you know, then there's some real drama. There is. And, and, and so, like, there's a team, like, apparently they're close to making a deal with Everett, the city of Everett, which is a large suburb outside of Seattle, maybe far enough outside of Seattle that it's not, like, I don't know how many. Everett, how many people that live in Everett are commuting down to go to Sanders games, it's about 45 minutes away. And they are, they have a minor league baseball team there, and they are working with the minor league baseball team to basically build something sort of like Knoxville One stadium

in, and which would have both soccer and baseball. And they apparently are planning on to go into League one. And that would be really interesting to see. It's going to be interesting to see the Sounders have not really had any competition for professional soccer. Like the only other professional soccer team that has existed in the Seattle area since the Sounders have been fully professional soccer team that have existed in the immediate area has been teams that, you know, they're farm teams, essentially. You know, the Sounders 2 and then Tacoma Defiance. And for a while, they were trying to make Tacoma Defiance like a real, you know, a real product when they were playing in Tacoma at Cheney Stadium and the, and the Tacoma Rainiers were sort of running the business side of that.

But ever since they moved back to Starfire, there's no real investment into it. So it's not like it's drawing eyeballs from the sounders at all. Yeah, yeah. I remember those days. Was it Cheney Stadium? Yeah. Cheney. All right.

So just a couple more questions, more personal for you. During the back end of your college career, you made a sudden rise at the student newspaper from staff. to executive editor in the span of three semesters. You can thank Waki for this one for sure. Tell us about that rise in three semesters. Well, I'll tell you, it wasn't that atypical for our school paper to have a rise like that because unlike a lot of school papers, we were a curriculum-based paper. So that, meaning we had, we were funded by the school.

We had staff advisors, and it was a class. so you actually weren't allowed to take the class and almost all the content was created by students in the class. It was, we were a daily paper, but we, unlike a lot of papers, we were not independent. We didn't have a lot of undergrads who were participating. So it wasn't that, and I don't think you could even, I'm not even sure if you could enroll in the class until you were a junior. And so when I enrolled in the class, it was pretty normal for someone to go from, slowly staff writer as a junior to executive editor

three semesters later because that was sort of the pool of talent they were consistently drawing from. Got it. So it wasn't that meteoric of a rise, although I don't know if I would have necessarily been the top candidate starting out. Like I didn't really have designs on being the editor.

I sort of fell into it a little bit. But it wasn't, I thought I did, you know, it was a really good learning experience. I would say to any aspiring journalist, any aspiring writer that the most important thing you can do is just do it every day or do it on or like

like I popped out I'm sure I wrote hundreds of stories before I could like I literally cannot go back and read stuff I wrote early on in my career because it would make me sick it's just so like I don't think I had any perspective Yeah it's a pretty discouraging experience

I don't recommend it all but you everyone need any good writer needs to do it though because you just need to the only way you get better at this is through repetition Yeah. And working fast, too. That's the thing I tell my journalism students a lot. And I don't think I get through to them is that, like, you just got to be done in like four hours.

You know? I'll tell you. I had that conversation. You want to just sit, you want to sit there and massage. Yeah, massage and get all anxious about it and think about it. But no, no, no, no. Just get it done. No, especially when you're first starting out, I would say, and that was, I told this to people all the time is that you can't sit.

You can't spend two days on the story. This is a two-hour story. This is not a two-day story. You've got to just pump it out. And then if you don't like it, that's fine. You can do another one tomorrow. And you sort of just need to get in that habit. And I think that's one of the things that's really served me well in this life is, you know,

a blogging is very much that way where there are stories that you want to sit and massage and you want to get it right and you want to do all these things. And you've got to do it. But sometimes it's more important just to get it out in a timely fashion. because if you don't do it quickly, it might be a relative. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

I remember I was at a journalism conference probably 15 years ago, longer than that. And David Brooks was there. And the head of the conference was like, David, how do you get over writer's block? And I was like, I just hit my head. I'm like, bro, David Brooks isn't dealing with writer's block right now. What are you talking about? The writer's block's not a thing. It's not a thing.

You just do it. Exactly. That is one of the other things that you hear, especially young journalists talking about, oh, I have writers. You do not have writers, but you don't know what writer's block is. Shut up. Take that out of your lexicon. This is not a thing that we deal with. Like, just do it.

What are you talking about? Just put one sentence after the other. Exactly. There's writers block. Yeah. Writers block is a fiction writer's dilemma that we do not have any comprehension of. Stop being so precious. Exactly.

All right. So what inspiration did you take from your dad's L.A. City ping pong championship? Oh, that's good. You know, I'll say my dad is an interesting guy. He still plays a ton of table tennis. I went through a stretch of playing every day ping pong, every day after school, for at least a year or two. I had a ping pong table in my garage and I was on the tennis team and I had some other guys on the tennis team that we would get pretty serious. Like we had like, you know, sweaty type of battles on on the ping pong table for hours at a time.

And I thought I was pretty, I thought I was a pretty good player. I could never like my dad was, is on such a different level in terms of ping pong than I ever could be. I'll tell you another humbling experience I had is given my, my, my, perceived competence in this sport. I asked to play Will Bruin one time. And Will and I have a pretty good relationship. And after he was when he was leaving the Sounders. And so we went out and hit.

And I had heard that he played a lot with other sound other. Like that was a game like the Sounders would play internally a lot. And he was supposedly the best guy in the team. And so I thought, okay, I'll go play with him. I was not prepared for quite what I was getting myself into, uh, especially like, good. He was really good. And I think there was just sort of a baseline competence when you're a professional athlete and you're used to sort of performing at a certain level that you can get good at things like that much more easily. But he played, I mean, he did play a lot. He was much more in practice than I was. But I was blown away at just how good he was. He won. He won. He was gathering. He trounce me. Yeah. And I think I'm a pretty competent. Like I think I can get and hit with most people on a ping pong table. But. he was on a whole other level. It was very humble.

Okay. So it sounds like it was a big inspiration to you, your father. Yeah. Yeah. My dad, my dad being an LA City champion is a story. I haven't told a lot, but it's definitely a thing I have talked about in the past.

And he is, he is still like a pretty good. He's all into, like, and his playing tennis with him was also very frustrating because he plays tennis like he played ping pong. So lots of spin, lots of dinking and dunking and not a lot of,

you know, you know, he didn't overhit the ball almost ever. He was just keep it in play guy. Like, it was very frustrating to play against. Interesting. Yeah. Okay, so you started writing about sports professionally in 98, 99, roughly. There's some soccer writing in your earliest years about Santa Cruz beach soccer, for example.

But in 2002, we start to get real signs of you becoming a soccer person. Now, bear with me for a second. But to us, it seems like it wasn't the World Cup. that did it. It was the Mojave River League. Do we overestimate the importance of the Mojave River League in making you a soccer person? No, I think that's accurate, actually. I think that's actually very accurate. I became, I sort of became the de facto soccer guy, the facto prep soccer guy at my first paper, which is the, you know, like I mentioned earlier, the Victorville Dilley Press. This is good research. I got to say, I don't even know that I,

I'm very impressed by this. Mojave River League, yeah. Granite Hill and Apple Valley and a bunch of teams that I would, Hisperia, Sultanah Sultans, that was the best name of a mascot I've ever heard, Sultanah Sultans. It's not named. There is no town called Sultana. It's just the second high school in Hesperia. I don't know where they, but it's called the Sultanah Sultans.

Amazing. There is right up there with Antelope Valley Anelopes. but Sultanah is better because they made up the name Sultanah just to sort of like go with like it's the desert or something I don't know anyway yeah there was a lot of there was a thriving prep soccer scene and I sort of fell into it and I was fat I think that was where I first became that's where I first started really writing about soccer on a regular

basis and I think without that I wouldn't know I did go to the 2006 World Cup. I should say I went, I should say I went, I was in attendance. I was in Europe during the 2006 World Cup. I tried to go to the World Cup. I did not get in, but I did go to the, to the whatever, the party thing, like the fan fest.

The fan zone or whatever it is. Yeah. And that was sort of formative as well, but I don't think I would have been interested in going to that, if not for my experience writing about it during those Mojave River. league. Yeah. Nice.

Did your, so this is going to, this is going to be even crazier. Did your grandmother ever talk to you about playing soccer in South Dakota during the Great Depression? It is listed as one of her activities in her high school yearbook. And I'd like to, and I, this is, this is, this is, who did this research, just to be clear. I'd like to read all her activities because it's very impressive. So this is Helen Sassie.

Is that how you pronounce it's Sassy? Yeah. And that is indeed my grandmother. So she was class officer number four. Operetta, four. Glee Club, four. So these are years, I think, of each activity. Chorus, two to four years.

Orchestra, basketball, dramatic club, dramatics, which I guess is different from dramatic club. Junior, senior play, debate, French club, Bobcat staff, baseball, volleyball, varsity baseball, soccer, volleyball. So I'll know. Her quote is, let me read your quote. When you want a thing well done, ask Helen to do it. I guess it wasn't her quote.

Somebody else said that about her. Well, I'll say what the thing that strikes me is this. First of all, this is amazing. I don't know that I've ever come across this on my own. So this is amazing. This is definitely my grandma. I recognize this character as my, as my grandmother. This must have been like what, a 30s, 1930s?

this must have been? Yeah, yeah, it looks like it. I don't know where he... I'm very impressed that you found this. I would love to you... I'll text you the screenshot. I'll text you the screenshot of... I wouldn't guess she graduated high school

in the early 30s, probably, if I had to... Yeah. If I had to guess. And what strikes me about this is how many activities she was involved in. And so she went on to be a teacher at a time when women were not really working.

And so I grew up in a household that there was a long lineage of working women. I have never been in a home with like a stay-at-home figure, certainly or at least a female stay-at-home figure. Like my mom worked all through my childhood. She grew up sort of believing that's what women did is go to work. And so I think that definitely shaped. shaped me. And my, my grandma, no, I did, had no idea that she played soccer. She died when I was like 14. And so I was not really like that was not a like I played soccer as a kid,

but that I was not like baseball. At that time of my life, I was very into baseball. And so that was never sort of like a common as far as I, I don't remember her ever mentioning her days as a soccer player. One of what positions you played. I wonder what soccer was like in those days in Yeah especially women soccer Yeah women soccer in South Dakota in the 1930s I can only imagine Yeah

Because I could be wrong But I think at that point They were still doing six Six person basketball At least in Iowa they were Where you'd have like three women on one side of the court And three one on the other side of the court I believe they weren't a lot

Like you had defenders and attackers And they weren't allowed to cross the half line And it was apparently a great spectator sport One last thing. You are from the West Coast, but on your Instagram, there's a picture of you wearing a Charlotte Hornets.