Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #612: Henry Bushnell on what Poch is thinking & where things stand

Episode Date: July 24, 2025

Henry Bushnell, one of the key figures in the USMNT press corps, joins Watke and Belz to talk Poch vs Pulisic, what the coach is actually interested in (culture), and a lot more. Send us a voicemail: www.speakpipe.com/ScuffedPodcast Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Scuff podcast where we talk about U.S. soccer. Hey, everybody, our guest today is consistently the guy asking the best questions when the men's national team coach faces the press. He's a graduate of Northwestern University and a native of Philadelphia. He's written for Yahoo Sports for the past eight years. He's got a new adventure coming starting next week, but we can't say what it is. Mum's the word. Henry Bushnell, welcome back to Scuffed.

Quite the intro, Adam. I appreciate that, and I appreciate Waki being here as well to make up for what I lack in the comedic department. So I'm excited about this. Do you know how hard it is to respond to something like that? He hates it when people explicitly talk about comedy. I can't handle it. I can't. I crumble under the slightest pressure.

Do you know the Burrhalter? Do you know the Burrhalter story? He was there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. I was there. Yeah, that's true.

That was diabolical, Henry. Do you know how much I compliment it is, though, that what Adam paid you about asking the best questions? It's one of the most important things to him, and he meant it. He doesn't gas people up like that. It's real. Yeah, it is real. I'm very critical of some of the questions I get asked in the press conferences. it's hard it's a not to get to in the weeds but it's um the hour after a game is a very hectic time

for all of us and you're often not totally thinking about you know how exactly to word your question or what you want to know um and sometimes you are pursuing like as a writer you're pursuing some like very specific angle yeah like some people frankly just like want a quote for you know a basic quote for for the story they're writing um rather than looking for information. But yeah, it's, you know, it's difficult. Like, you have these 15 minutes with the coach. Each reporter is going to get one question.

If one, you know, either one or zero questions. I don't really get questions anymore because, I mean, he asked of. I don't consistently raise my hand. I'm sure he doesn't remember because this is a made up thing. He's saying, what was it? Actually, I don't even remember. What was it I did? Oh, I asked Potch if you watch.

if he watches Gio Raina. I said, I don't know if you watch, I've been watching Gio at Dortmund, but he doesn't run very much. And I got a like a side message from the, from the comms team. He definitely watches. But anyway,

that's why Chris thinks I've been blackballed. I think you were last on the show in 2019. So this is your, it's been too long, man. It's been too long. So thanks for coming back. It was a memorable game review after a mostly B-Team Gold Cup.

I mean, the whole team was kind of a B-Team back then, but it was still a B-Team Gold Cup game against Panama that I believe Josie Altadour scored in. If I remember correct, I haven't looked it up to confirm that, but I believe that was the case. Sounds right. I've been waiting to get an invite back ever since, and it finally came.

You must have started to think it's never going to happen. Did you, like, I must have said something that Adam... didn't like. No, it's not true. It's not true. It's just a, it's just poor organization over here. Okay. So I noticed in your big board he put out after the Gold Cup, you did downgrade Poulsick from Locke to Likely. Do you think he has time left to reincorporate himself into this new culture and family? Yes. He has time? Yeah, he has time. And frankly, I would be. extremely surprised if that doesn't happen and I would be extremely surprised if he is not back in

camp by the end of the fall I'd say um but look the the reason I downgraded him was that like there's a there's a unlike with Chris Richards or with some of the other guys who were either here this summer or just did not opt out of the gold cup like there's a non-zero chance that Pocetino takes this personally and wants to send not just a message, but a really strong message. And

and just like, it seems so foreign to him that a player would opt out of playing for his country's national team. So there's a non-zero chance that he just freezes Blissick out. I highly doubt that's going to happen. But that's the reason for

You know, it's, I mean, it's, look, it's going to be the big story entering September and going forward, I think. How, how Pachitino handles this exactly. And coming out of the Gold Cup, I don't think anybody could really say confidently that they know how he is going to handle it. Yeah. What indicated to you that he, like, was, couldn't understand. Like, that just was confusing to him, that Pulisic would opt out. when did you say oh you're like this is actually potch is actually kind of frustrated about this i'm not sure it was one moment but look a lot of what we've heard from patchino over the past

two months i guess um or maybe beyond um is that i think we're realizing that he not that we didn't know this but we're realizing that he really he comes from a totally different soccer culture than we have here in the United States. Like the soccer culture in Argentina is totally different. And you look at how some of those Argentine guys like treat national team duty. That is how Pachitino, that is like the only conception of national team duty that Pachitino previously had in his head. And what I'm talking about is like, you know, after Argentina already qualified for the World Cup, Like these big time players were going on away trips, incommable, and like giving their all in World Cup qualifiers that didn't mean anything to them.

And, you know, in the middle of club seasons. And now you have a, like the star player after, you know, some bad games in March where you would think, you know, we want to prove that that's not us. We want, you know, we want to kind of turn the page on that, like a star player opting out. I think that it is just like such a foreign concept to him. So it's the way that he talks about like the natural and just like undoubted pride in playing for a person's country. And nobody's saying that Christian Polisic doesn't have this, but it's just like so constant and a given in Argentina and in a lot of other,

you know, South American, some European soccer cultures as well, just a bit it's a bit different here and I think Pacoino has been a bit I don't know if shocked is the right word but it's put him off a bit

I think What did you make of his crying? It was interesting My one I actually watched it right before I hadn't watched it yet but I heard people talking about it I watched it right before we

came on to record this because I figured you guys would be interesting and honestly the one thought I had was like it meant something to be in the room for that. Like for the 24 or whatever player, 26 players who were in the room for that, like that's a moment that you carry forward with you. It's like, and, you know, given the emotion that they felt even before he started crying, um, or gave that speech. And then like to just like on a human level, it, it meant something

to be there. And that's a moment that like, nothing else is going to. replicate that moment between now and the World Cup, right? And so that is a moment that these 10 guys who we assume are going or should be part of the, or are among the best 25 players in the United States player pool who were not at the Gold Cup, they're not going to have that going into the World Cup. And that's why, like, I think it, to me, my main takeaway coming away from watching that was like, that is why it meant something to, that is why the summer meant something. And that is why it's such a strange situation that half the roster, half the presumed World Cup roster wasn't there for.

Whose team is it now? Is it Potches? Yeah, I think it. Was it ever not Potch's team? It wasn't. No, there was a stretch where it was, it was no one's team for a little bit. Right? Pool Six team kind of, you know. I mean, all through the Burrhalter era, was like, was it ever really clear that he was the boss and Pulisic wasn't? I don't know that it was, you know? I mean, there's no other way he takes all the set pieces

for like basically a whole decade. Right. You know, and it's interesting thinking about that question, because you remember, it's not like if, remember the last thing that we remember Christian doing before skipping the goal cup with the national team was remember what you remember when. he waved off the sub

in the March Nations League game. That's right. I kind of forgot about that. That like, so that is the, that and then he, what,

he took a free kick or something, and then he got subbed off, and that's the last time he's played for the national team, right? So, like, not that,

not, you know, we're probably making a bit too much of that, but like, it fits in with the answer to this question that, like, not just Christian,

but other guys were given a lot of latitude. for a lot of years because they and to some extent like they still have that because they are clearly the best players in this pool like there's nobody that is realistically threatening christian politic spot in the starting lineup um i wouldn't think i would i would hope not um but and that's in part why i think like all this you know quote unquote message sending needs to happen if that if that is what's happening uh because Because, like, even if it's a somewhat empty message and even if there's no realistic chance that a guy like Polisic gets unseeded, it kind of, like, Pacchino needed to put his foot down and make it clear that it was his team to some extent.

If you think that that's what needed to happen, I would argue that it would probably be okay if the, you know, it's not inherently a bad thing for the play. to have ownership of the team and really be driving it. But if that was kind of the culture shift that Paco Tcha Tino was brought in to instigate, then that's why we're seeing all this. So your pool six downgrade got the headlines from your big board when it came out. Another thing, though, that caught my eye

is your bubble category had 23 players in it. That's the most people I've ever seen, bubble. One, I think that tells us something about the state of the team, but I'm also curious, just as a journalist, did you ever consider splitting that into like two separate categories? No, because I was completely exhausted that day and, uh, kind of ready to, I didn't, I didn't have the brain space to think about what the other category would be. Um, but, but I do, the serious answer to your question is, I think it, it does reflect the state, of like this roster

would you got I would be interested if you guys would agree with this this roster is way more unsettled 10 months out from a World Cup than it was two years out from the World Cup does that you think that's fair to say yes

like going into Copa America last year you could confident you would have confidently put 15 plus guys on the World Cup roster yeah and now it's

maybe it's certainly less than that i think um and there's the just yeah just the there's a lot of guys that we we we thought we as the you know american us m&T fan slash media collective like we we thought we knew what our opinion of guys were and where guys stood and and patachino is kind of challenged a lot of that slash the events of the last 10 months have have challenged a lot of that I think yeah it seems like we we still I still have a pretty clear idea of who I think the top 15 or 16 players are um that hasn't really changed it's just like the the chaos the chaos introduced by potchino's decisions and chaos isn't even the right word just the uncertainty the challenge that he's made to the conventional wisdom

And by a lot of just like individual circumstances here and there. Like this isn't all what Pachitino is doing. It's Josh Sargent inexplicably not, you know, despite playing well for his clubs, not scoring a goal for the national team for six years or whatever. It's injuries to the other strikers. It's Matt Turner not playing soccer. It's, you know, it's all these things that just go situation by situation. And that's where some of the uncertainty comes from as well, I think. Yeah.

So every coach, the way I look at it is every coach is somewhere on a continuum of watch what I do, not what I say. And my sense is Burrhalter is more on what he said actually did kind of mean a little more than your average coach. And my sense is like POTCH, what POTCH means maybe a little less than the average coach. It's like more about what he does. What do you think? Where does Potch fall on that continuum? You got to parse through his press conferences and, you know, figure all that out. I think we're still trying to figure that out.

I think that's been one of the interesting parts of his first nearly year in charge, but especially of the past few months trying to figure out what he means when, you know, what the words he says at press conferences never actually. The word any, words any coaches say at press conferences, 99% of the time don't reflect what they're actually thinking, what they're talking about with their staffs internally, et cetera. I think he's, and I think we've certainly learned some about the messages he's trying to send. Like when he, in March, when he talks about Diego Luna after, I forget which of the games it was,

but when he talks about Diego Luna as like an example of the fight and the desire and whatever words he used that he wants to see, he's implicitly, you know, and maybe he tried to like walk it back a bit, but he's implicitly saying that like the other guys didn't show that, right? and and I think there's probably a pretty direct line from that to he's going to challenge those other guys, you know, behind the scenes. He's not going to call him out publicly, but he's going to challenge them behind the scenes. What we don't, what I still don't think we know is we don't have any clues about his long-term plan for like this, you know, for the next 10 months, basically. Like we, you know, when I asked him after the, after the Mexico Gold Cup final about reintegrating the other players, he gave this response as if like he totally didn't understand the premise of the question. And I was, and like I totally understand why he would do that. And like clearly some of these guys are going to be reintegrated. I don't know whether he's thought about exactly how or not. But he hasn't given us, we don't know whether him pushing away that question and saying like the guys who were here are the ones who deserve to be here and they were great.

We don't know to what extent he actually has fallen in love with these Gold Cup guys and is going to keep calling them in. And to what extent he, that's just the message he feels like he has to send publicly. And in his mind, he's also thinking, like, all right, we got to get the better players back in here. So I really don't think we know what the balance between those two things is. It was unusually easy to know what Verhalter was going to do, thinking back. Wasn't it? What makes you say that? I don't ever remember being at a complete loss for what the lineup was going to be in the next game.

or what his what he was trying to do you could always kind of tell and he would talk about it yeah it was certainly more predictable um and and i guess the squads were more predictable like burrhalter never announced the squad like the one that pachicino announced in in late may or whenever that was, just this past Gold Cup squad, where there were that many surprises. Guys, we didn't even consider being in the picture suddenly in, guys we thought we assumed would be there being out. Yeah, I can't remember a specific. Yeah, you know, to put it, to put it in like sort of majestically self-aggrandizing terms, I feel like Burrhalter was more, it felt like Burrhalter was a little bit more a part of the USMNT

fandom slash like ecosystem like he was aware and it was it always kind of like made sense with that I mean there was of course there was some Christian rolled on shenanigans going on and World Cup qualifying and stuff like that but Sebastian legit but for the most part it was like it felt like he could have been a member of USMNT Twitter you know yeah it was He wasn't like running out Sebastian Burhalter for 500 minutes. Right. Yeah. Just give him the keys to Pat Ajamong.

What's the best? So a couple more things on, one more thing for me on Potch. It's still early days I get. But like in your interactions with him, what do you think is the best way to get him to open it up? I have an idea, but I want to hear your response first. Like in a media setting? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I know press conferences are like just sort of difficult for that in any, no matter what.

But, you know, for instance, Burrhalter, like if somebody asked him a pretty detailed soccer question, like he would kind of light up, right? And he'd want to talk about it. What's that for Potch? To me, it seems over the past, at least that towards the tail on of the. Gold Cup, the topic that really struck him and got him going was just like soccer culture. And like in light of what he has, what he experienced in Argentina and in the three European countries he lived in. And then like, you know, what, you know, when you look at some of his, his answers after

the Guatemala and Mexico games, especially the Guatemala game, just like raving about their fans and their team. So it's like that, that passion and the culture for soccer seems to be what he is most interesting talking about. But I think in terms of like getting him to open up, I think it kind of depends on the circumstances. I don't know. I think that was the right answer. Henry, I think you nailed it. I think it's right of Adams Alley too.

And he can come out roaring back onto the press conference scene with a culture question. It'll be my big, it'll be my. big return my triumph he'll love it yeah he'll do a one eight i'm sure you remembered you pretty vividly you know i mean just to i know this is this is uh tongue-and-cheek but i have to say when we were in nashville i was in nashville with sanjay i asked the question about um essentially what do you say to players after they don't perform well you know to get them to how do how do we solve this problem of like having a bad thing happen on the field and then everybody melting and he gave like I don't know like a five minute answer with like a bunch of um

crowd involvement so he he asked a rhetorical question he said what's the most important play in soccer and I was like finishing and then he was like looked around the room pointed at a bunch of people and people said different things and he goes uh the next one the next play you know so it was like he was really enjoying that whole thing so I don't know we may we may we maybe back. Adam, you really hung me out to drive by not telling me you had asked him a question since that. I mean,

it's hard to keep everybody up to date. Who's the most underrated member of the press corps, of the USM&T press corps, in your opinion? Underrated? You're asking me to rate, rate my colleagues? I don't know that I can do that. I will say that. That's easier. Who's overrated?

No, no, don't. We don't want to talk about who's overrated. It's not going to answer that one. I don't actually wasn't going to answer the first one. What I will say is that Sanjay's commitment to the entirety of the Gold Cup, I know we gave him shit for, I don't know if I can say shit here, but we gave him shit for skipping the final. But he had been traveling with the team every step of the way,

like in the weeds on different angles and different players and like always just like on top of the storylines. That was, I don't know if I would call Sanjay underrated at this point. I think, you know, everybody knows him around, but he's, his commitment to the beat was appreciated by everyone and very impressive. I have a segue. Speaking of In the Weeds, we're looking ahead next year to quote, some of the most micromanaged grass in the world. I don't know who that's quote is from, but someone said that, and it was in one of your stories. get our listeners excited, if you would, about grass turf hybrids and shallow pitch profiles. That was a terrible segue, but I could do it.

I thought it was great. I thought it was fantastic. Yeah, that's the, that's, so you're talking about FIFA's plan. Tell us all everything you know about grass, basically. Yes, I know way too much about grass now after reporting out that story. Did you visit the, uh, I think you, you wrote a, you, you wrote, an unusual number of stories about grass really. Yeah. One big one.

You're one big one in March. I did not go see the grass, if that's what you're asking. I was going to ask that. Basically, Adam, they got some universities to grow all the best grass they could. Yeah, they got universities to research it,

research what the best grass would be, and tried a bunch of different things out. And now they actually grass is being grown at these like very intricate and large turf farms throughout the in different parts of the United States. So I actually, I did see the grass after it was in place at SoFi Stadium in March. That was kind of like the first test run. And it seemed to play pretty well there. But basically the problem, as I'm sure a lot of your listeners know, is that when NFL stadiums have tried to put grass over turf in the past, including in the recent past the Club World Cup,

like some of this was kind of like the old plan. It doesn't work very well. At least the Europeans complain about it a lot because it's different than what they're used to. There's not the same. So a normal grass pitch has like a foot of sand. It's not even dirt. It's sand underneath it. And that's just like the.

the texture and the feel that everyone is used to, it allows for, you know, normal, just like watering and care of the grass, whereas it's a lot different when you grow grass at a turf farm, roll it up in trucks and roll it out and stitch it together directly over turf. And especially if it's an indoor stadium that, you know, introduces another challenge. So I don't know that I can describe the whole plan on a podcast because it's pretty detailed and intensive. But basically, FIFA has a plan that was partially in place in some cases at the Club World Cup, but not fully in place. And it's going to be in place next summer for the World Cup.

And they say that it will make these fields play like the field at the Emirates or at Villa Park or whatever. ever would. I think after the Club World Cup, some people are skeptical about how much of a replica it will actually be and that there could be some problems still. But that is the plan for the World Cup, that there will be these. The plan is different for each stadium,

but the idea is that it will play more like a normal soccer pitch. You mentioned Europeans complaining. One of them complained about the Thunder And said it, I don't know, if he said it, someone said it made us unfit to host a tournament. Yeah, it was Club World Cup champion Enzo Moreska, I believe. I think we've gotten so used to our thunderstorms here. We don't even, like that was a weird thing to hear. But now I'm thinking back on this podcast maybe two years ago or three years ago,

I mentioned all these thunderstorms we have in the summer. And Adam and Vince were like, they didn't know what I was talking about. like thunderstorms. It's all connected to this. We're so used to them. We're not thinking about them. Except people like me. Was it thunderstorms you were talking about?

Was it like afternoon showers? It was afternoon evening thunderstorms. Okay. But I said that was just all summer. I do want to, you know, I think about that all the time now. I'm like, man, here's another one of Waukee's afternoon showers. Do you? I think every time, and it's been a great year for those.

too. There's been a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of afternoon showers, thunderstorms. Anyhow, do you think it makes us unfit to host a tournament? That's not a good question. Don't answer that question. Answer the question. I don't think it makes us unfit, but I think it's going to be a problem. Yeah.

And I think, look, that was from everything I was told, one of the knocks against MetLife Stadium as a World Cup final host, compared to the other two candidates, which were AT&T Stadium at greater Dallas area and SoFi Stadium in Southern California, was that it didn't have a roof. Like they actually, it was a, playing the World Cup final indoors was a,

would have been seen as a benefit because they're worried about July, July thunderstorms in the, in the Northeast. And like, could you imagine, like that, so the quote you referenced, was after that Chelsea Benfica round of 16 game got delayed. It got stopped in the 86 minute, which was crazy. Like we couldn't have just played five more minutes before the thunderstorms came and then called it.

No, if you see lightning within 200 miles, like shut down the city. That's the current policy. Yeah. But, you know, part of it is there are these laws. and like it's based on law and based on the whatever the governmental, you know, the federal government agencies regulations are, the game,

I guess had to be stopped. And then they're just sitting there for two hours waiting to play the last five minutes of this game. And could you, like, could you imagine if that happened during the World Cup final? So ridiculous. Could you imagine if it happened during any World Cup game, really? But, but,

but it seems likely that it, you know, What, I think it, there, it was six of the 63 games at the Club World Cup. We're suspended by weather. We've got 104 World Cup games next summer. There's going to be, there's surely going to be some. And it's going to be terrible for the TV schedule and for everybody involved. Yeah.

The thing is, you know, people have also been complaining about the heat. It is summer in America. It's hot. But, you know, we did do a World Cup here. here 31 years ago. And it was hotter. I think it was hotter

that summer than it was this has been this summer. So, I don't know. Some of the games, it was, yes,

it was dangerously hot. Yeah. I think there was just less awareness about, two things, right? There was less awareness

about the dangers of that, I think. And the second thing is like, the game is a lot faster now than it was. That's true. Yeah.

You could kind of chill. You could kind of chill out there. Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. Also, we're, you know, back then people were like, suck it up, Buttercup. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. What else? Anything. Well, the Club World Cup, what did you, you covered that in some depth? It was a successful tournament? Yeah, reasonably successful. It was what I, when everybody asked me that question, what I say is it was, it exceeded

the expectations that I think it exceeded the realistic expectations that the general public had a month before it started. It did not meet FIFA's wildly excessive, publicly professed expectations, which was that this would be the greatest thing ever and the biggest club tournament in the history of soccer and all that. And I think that's just like why the narrative around it was so confusing and negative for a while because FIFA just like, would not even acknowledge that this was a startup tournament that they have to build from scratch and the first edition was going to be imperfect and not draw a ton of interest and people were skeptical of it. But when you step back and just think about, no, there are 40,000, yes, there were millions of empty seats, but there were 40,000 people per game at a tournament that, you know, didn't exist.

Yeah, that didn't exist a few years ago. and where more than half of the teams, like the average American sports casual, you know, American sportsman could not tell you what that team was. So I think it was reasonably successful and certainly like a launching pad for the tournament to grow in future additions and potentially come back to the United States in four years. Do you have any favorite Americanizations we've made in the presentation of the game? at this Club World Cup that will hopefully carry over to the World Cup.

Favorite, favorite as in something I think is ridiculous, or favorite as in something I like? Take it, you can take it in any direction you want. Okay. The individual player walkouts are quite interesting, I'd say, and it seemed very anathema to soccer in a lot of ways. I'm not sure I like them, and the main reason I don't. like them is that some of you know especially when they're walking especially when the tunnel in these NFL stadiums is on the opposite side of the stadium of where they're being you know they're lining up like these things would take for like at the opener like half an hour yeah it's ridiculous um

so that was interesting uh the u.s national anthem randomly randomly playing like 57 minutes before the game that's my favorite uh was a bit uh odd it's like either we're doing this like we do at American sports events or just don't do it at all but I guess I guess that's the thing

and then just you know there are there are a lot of this World Cup is going to be messy in a lot of, this upcoming World Cup is going to be messy in a lot of ways and I don't mean the player I mean as in a mess and a lot of that

is just a things like not having public transportation and a lot of cars and traffic outside stadiums. So that's not an intentional Americanization of these major tournaments, but that's a thing that a lot of people are going to deal with. So I'm not, I'm trying to. That's different is our president is going to claim the trophy if you win it. Chris, I would love to hear your predictions for, yeah, what he will do on stage at the World Cup final. I mean, I think he's, I don't know how to predict what this man is going to do.

It's the thing. He's going to do a lot like what he did on the Club World Cup. Here's another question for you guys. Do you think how, to what extent was Gianni Infantito, Infantino totally taken by surprise by what Trump did on stage? Or to what extent did he like know that Trump was going to do that and willingly let Trump do that? But like try to play it off as if he didn't know it was coming. I think he had to know.

He's spending so much time with him. They're really close friends, aren't they? They're close friends. So hey, let's get to some other serious questions. So one more on the USM&T at least. When you talk to a general interest audience, a regular person, and they ask you, what's going on with the USMNT? Like, what do you say? How do you characterize what's happening?

Not for the sickos, but for like a regular person. I think what I try to explain. Sorry, sorry, when someone asks you what you do for a living, what is your exact response? Let's work through stage by stage here. I say it depends on how much I want to tell them. Do I actually want to get into a conversation with this person? Then I tell I'm a journalist. And then they're like, oh, that's cool.

And then no further questions. But if it's somebody I actually like in meeting and when I talk with, then I maybe introduce the sports part. Like if I'm willing to have it, I generally don't like to talk about sports with random people who don't know what they're talking about. out if that makes sense. I don't know if you guys feel that at all. But if I'm willing to get in, then I would say I'm a sports journalist.

I cover soccer. I guess, does that answer your question? Okay. And now that person, you've found out this person is, they're kind of into this team, this national team. Or they're not, but they're curious about what. They know, they know that U.S. national team is not that good, the men's team. Right.

It's kind of what they know. And I'm like, what that H is going on. Basically just what Adam asked you, but then we just did this for... Yeah. But the journey was really fun. I think what I try to explain to a lot of people is that, look, the reason that we're here to some extent is because there's a broader question about whether anything that happens in the interim between World Cups matters. Like, does any of this at all predict what is... is going to happen in June of 2026.

And like, there's just all these friendlies and repetitive Nations League games. And I think that's why you maybe don't get like full 110% effort from some of these guys in some of these games. And so like, I guess I would tell people like the team is kind of chaotic right now. There are questions about how much the star players care. But there's also, I think, a more important. question just about does any of this matter? And I think some of these players are still pretty darn good. And they showed up in Qatar.

And I think we should be reasonably confident that they are going to show up next summer, as long as the right guys are on the field and they don't all hate each other. Yeah. Yeah, I've brought this up several times on the podcast, but I don't know if I brought, I haven't brought up to you, Henry. but I was talking to John Polis a few couple months ago and he was a press secretary when we qualified for the 1990 World Cup and he was and he was like very much

what happens before the World Cup doesn't matter at all don't worry about it it's a moment in time it's either they either got the magic or they don't and yeah I'm taking that to the bank there are just each camp has its unique circumstances and like you think about that September camp before the Qatar World Cup. Like when they played Japan and Saudi Arabia,

didn't score a single goal. It all seemed really bad. It seemed so bad, didn't it? Yeah. But like those were friendlies in the middle of European seasons. Those guys during that camp were being asked to do a lot of like media. This was the last time that the U.S. soccer staff had them together before they got to Qatar less than a week before their first game. so there were a lot of other things that were on their plate. You never know what the exact circumstances are,

and nothing can replicate just like what a World Cup will inspire in players. And then, like, so that's one side of it, and the other side of it is like, can you really build anything chemistry-wise, tactically, et cetera, with a national team, even if it's a similar group of players together for multiple years under the same coach. And I think there are legitimate questions about, certainly you can do something, but it's not easy. And most teams arrive at the World Cup, and the World Cup is just its own animal.

And I think that's kind of like what a lot of people are banking on and probably should be banking on with this group. All right, yeah. That's good. It's good perspective. So this is a new perspective that it sort of seems to have taken over our community. It's wise of us. It doesn't really bode well for the content creators.

Yeah, it does make you realize maybe we shouldn't be doing any of this. Maybe you should just take a break until June. But it is interesting, right? because it's like the community that is really invested in this, we'll talk so much about it between now and between now and the World Cup. And then there'll be a much bigger group of people that will start caring on June 5th or whatever of next year. And to those people, like, none of this will matter either. And it will be about what this team does the World Cup.

And if they are terrible, then all of this that we're going through now will be part of the narrative. And if the team is good, then it will kind of lend to the idea that none of this has mattered. And none of this will be part of the narrative at all. It won't be like they, oh, they rebounded from that, you know, terrible March 2025 Nation's League, you know, pair of games. it will it will just be its own story. Yeah. So it's interesting to think about

from that perspective. Words like Nations League and Gold Cup are just they're just conversational poison. You know, if somebody asks you about the team, I feel like every time I just say those words, people are just like, they're like backing away. I have to explain what those terms are

to Thai parents 30 or 40 times. Oh yeah. You will have to do it 30 or 40 more times. Well, and usually, usually the way to explain it, right, is, oh, it's a regional tournament. But then what's the other one? Yeah, no, this is a case where it is ridiculous. No one should understand any of these things.

Yes. Hey, Henry, some questions about you. So what are, you went to Northwestern, vaunted school of journalism there. What are some of the hallmarks of that journalism program at the Medill School? I mean, is there like a certain class or a certain concept? that every alum, you know, when you guys are meeting at some, you know, cocktail bar inside the Beltway for an alumni meeting, is there something, like you guys all, you all remember this one class,

or like there's like one thing everybody has to do? Not real. So a few answers to that. I don't necessarily associate myself with this, with this community in part because I think a lot of people associate themselves way too much with it and think, oh, just because they went to Northwestern, they are a big deal. And that kind of rubs me the wrong way. It is not something I want to really be a part of. The other thing I'd say is, I think you get out, there are a lot of different things you can get out of the program, and there are so many different tracks within

journalism. Honestly, a lot of what I learned was just like doing student media stuff while in college and like covering the best the the the men's basketball team and the the the football team and the women's basketball team while there um and and and writing features there were certainly some good i one of my favorite classes was a uh was a i guess i think at the time it was kind of outdated terms but they called it like magazine writing um and but just like studying feature writing and learning how to you know the the classic journal is to show a reader what is happening rather than just tell a reader what is happening. And so just like learning some, like studying good writing and learning how to do it,

you know, that type of thing was helpful in my career. But I wouldn't say there was one class. And I mean, I don't want to throw my school under the bus. But there were some classes that like I thought were, I used this word earlier. a bit outdated and weren't all that useful for the for the digital age um but yeah no it was a really good experience and i love the the the the broader school experience was a was a great one for me i watched the video this morning of you it was kind of like a sports center ad that you made where you're carrying a laptop around while you're like jogging and how did you find a hat i just

searched your name on on youtube it's uh it's great you don't look that different i guess it was only 10 years ago, right? People still tell me that I look like I'm a teenager, which is, for a while, for a while, I don't know what the trajectory of like when that is a compliment and when it's a pejorative thing. I don't know. Yeah, case by case. I have often been told that I look younger than I actually am. I'm in my 30s now.

When did you decide to get into journalism? Was it like from a young age? Yeah, no, not from a young age. It was weird. It was it's interesting like sports very much led me to journalism like sports was my first love and then I guess I discovered in like high school that I Was a decent writer and enjoyed writing and then that sort of okay like if you're if you're if you're if you're in the sports and you love writing like what I didn't really have any other idea of what I would want to do with my life so I decided to go for it and went to journalism school in college. And that kind of just like confirmed for me that it was both fun and intellectually interesting

and also just powerful and important in the world, even if, you know, obviously some of the, you could argue a majority of the stories we do are not important in the, in the grander scheme of things at all, especially when we're covering sports. but I think journalism in general, just from a societal perspective, is very important. And so, like, I have gotten, like I got into it from the sports side of sports journalism,

and now, like, I'm much more interested in the journalism side of it. And that kind of drives a lot of the work I do. What's your AI policy? Do you ever use it to, like, outline a story? No, I don't use it. You don't use it at all? No, not that I'm morally against it. I just, you could say that I'm just like, slow to adopting that type of thing.

But no, in fact, like, I don't even, you know, most people have used apps nowadays that you can record like an interview and it automatically transcribes it for you, you know, straight as it's recording. Yeah. I don't even do that. I use like an old school recorder because I like to like listen back to things and hear how people said things. things. No, I actually, I don't use, I mean, I'm, you know, I'm sure there are ways in which AI is baked into some of the tools I use, but, but no, I don't, don't use an old-fashioned man.

An old-fashioned young-looking person. Henry Butler was kind of an old-fashioned name. Yeah, you're like a, well, Benjamin Button of, I don't know, I kind of think through it. You can't figure that one out. You went to a Quaker high school. You went to a Quaker high school. I did. You really busted out of their research.

I don't. I mean, it wasn't that tricky. Right. Do you see now what I'm saying when people are impressed when I say a fact like that and it's like the easiest thing in the world? Yeah. Yeah. But I'm curious. So how Quaker is it?

It was founded in 1845. I mean, are they like, is everybody dressed plainly and being quiet? Yeah. Yes, and the vast majority of people at the school would not identify as Quaker. I don't identify as Quaker. It's more so just a... It's a fire. That underpins the values of the school.

And the one thing that we would do that most kids hated, but like in retrospect, you actually realize that there was a ton of value in it is this thing called meeting for worship. where like it's you know so it's it's it's not tied to any just like nobody has to be any specific religion or anything to attend this school to participate but like the one the meeting for worship once a week you would just go sit in this big called a meeting house but just like a big room

everybody all in the same room and you just sit in silence for like 35 40 minutes I think and you can people can stand up and speak if you want but it's supposed to be just like a lot of most people use it as just a time of reflection and just to clear your head and think. And that, like, you know, as I said, like when I, you know, 15-year-old me thought it was stupid and it was, you know, all the cool kids would sleep during it and things like that. But in retrospect, like I would love to have a, I try to do some meditation here and there now,

but to have like one structured time of the day where this was every day no no no once a week once a week okay yeah yeah once i forget which day of the week it was but when you say it was like a tuesday or thursday morning or something like that you said you don't identify as a quaker does that mean you're just not a quaker or you were raised quaker but you no longer identify as a quaker no i was not we should ask that this prime question fall over i guess we should ask about no no the only association with the Quakers that I have is that I went to a school that... It sounds like what you described with that thing, that's just a Quaker church service.

So they just had you going to church. Yes, right. But they don't force it on anybody, basically. Yeah. No, it was a good school. Anything you want to ask us, Henry, or any questions you wish we had asked? I have a...

Maybe if my question for you guys would be, what do you and maybe bells you're maybe closer to this than Chris's but like what do you sense that the media landscape around the U.S. men's national team is going to be headed into the the World Cup next summer like I think we for a while we've imagined that this team is going to be like front and center for the entire month leading up to the World Cup you know in every sports television show and et cetera, et cetera. And there's just such a contrast between that and the general vibe around the team over the past few months. And I think apathy is a word that's been thrown around.

And I think that's what even a lot of invested fans are feeling. And certainly the broader public, I don't think, really cares that much about this team yet. So, like, I don't know. What's your sense of that? Like is there going to be a ton of buzz going into June of 26th? I think so. It's not being a lot more than Qatar because that was kind of a weird winter schedule. That's true.

It stuck upon people. It wasn't summery. It was a sounderness to it. It's going to. In a huge event, it's going to be impossible to not notice. Yeah, I think I agree with that. Probably to like click on a couple weeks before. or the World Cup.

But I do think there is an element of, there's so much sports, there's so many, people have so many things they're interested in, not just sports media landscape, but like society itself is sort of fragmenting and fracturing and like nicheifying. And so I do think there is an element of

if they do something exciting at the World Cup, it will blow up. And if they don't, then it might just kind of slide along in the timeline, you know? That's sort of what I've been getting. I think there are two things that, as you said. One is like people in the United States just have so many different options for their entertainment, right? For their free, there's so many different ways in which they can spend their free time. And the World Cup will be a big thing, but it will be.

be one of, no matter what, it will be one of many things going on at that time and many ways in which people can spend their time and energy and money. And the other thing is just like there's so much pulling at people's attention right now. And it's not, it's not a given that the World Cup and the U.S. men's national team will, will kind of penetrate the average person's you know, daily, daily routine and, you know, consciousness or whatever, whatever word you use. Yeah, but it's interesting. I don't know. It's something I've been thinking a lot about.

And I think, yeah, to some example, just have to see. But, Adam, I think your point about so much of it is going to depend on, like, the interest in this team going into their first game could be a lot different than if they win a round of 32 or a round of 16 games. And that in dramatic fashion with a goal like in Donovan 2010. Like that, that would just totally change things. I agree with that. I think even like the first game, if we, if they come out in the first game and play exciting soccer and like, you know, show the fans something, score some goals, that would do wonders. You know, but if we come out and play like we did against Panama at the Copa or whatever or even at the Nations League, you know, I don't know. how many chances do you get to run over the public.

Right. Henry, thanks for doing this. We really appreciate it. Thank you guys for having me. It was enjoyable. And I will, I will, I'm a loyal listener. I can't say I listen to every single episode, but I certainly, certainly, you guys are the,

you guys are my go-to USM&T podcast, I'd say. We appreciate that, man. We will see you in six years. No, we'll get you back. before that. Yeah. Really soon, really soon as soon as we can sort it out. That's embarrassing time lapse, Adam. I'm sorry I've really been coming at you this episode. I don't know. I don't know why that happened like that. Anyway, Henry, don't go. I got to get the files. But thanks everybody for listening. We'll see you.