Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #652: Poch's media tour & what the World Cup will mean to America with Doug McIntyre

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

We talk through the quite encouraging events of the first half of the week -- Pulisic's big man on campus brace off the bench, Wes's lovely gamewinner in CL, Balo's gamewinner and Pepi's continued propensity to put the ball in the back of the net. Then we get into Poch's media tour after the World Cup draw a little bit, what will happen if we beat Paraguay in that first game, and the MLS championship game a bit too.Germany/Netherlands trip form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfI4Cp1VpS2eCphsNjf6QHdaRDq86Tf-FeUhJ2tQ0RzkbxQhw/viewformIf you are interested in seeing some combination of Gio, Scally, Malik and the PSV boys, that's the form. The trip only happens if 10 or so people want to go, so if you have ANY interest, even if it's a distant possibility, let us know. Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the scuff podcast where we talk about U.S. soccer. Hey, everybody, we've got three Champions League goals and a super sub master class for Monday to cover and also the bump of enthusiasm for the World Cup after the draw. And Doug McIntyre is here with me. Fighting through illness, Doug, thank you for your service. Good to be here, bells. Thanks for having me. Let's start with the other guy fighting through illness in the last few days.

Christian Mate Pulisicic. I guess he had a fever over the weekend. and so he didn't start in Milan's game on Monday and this is against Torino, the smaller club from Turin. He comes on down to 1 and what happened? Why don't you tell us what happened after that? I mean, it took 10 minutes for him to, it took less than a minute, I think,

when he came on to get the equalizing goal and then less than 10 minutes later he gets the winner. Masterclass off the bench. I mean, sometimes it's a weird thing. Sometimes when you're sick, you actually play better in a funny way. So I'm hoping to have a performance, you know, half as good as Christians today on this podcast coming off the flu myself. But yeah, I mean, look, he's a phenomenal player.

He's a match winner when he's at his best. And we saw that in that game. I thought he took both goals tremendously well. You know, the first one, it seems simple, but it's just, it's a, he takes the ball out of the air and he just hits it right away before the keeper can react. And, you know, second goal was even better than that. So that's what he's capable of when he's at his best. That's what we are all hoping we're going to see from Christian Polisic at the World Cup this summer. It's a great sign that he's playing well, that he's in form, you know, going into the holidays,

you know, a lot of time between now and June. But he looks like he's in, he's recapturing the form that he was in at the start of the season, which I and others said was the best of his career. And then, unfortunately, had some injury issues, the, the, the, hamstring, I think it was, issue that he suffered in the, in the Australian match that cost him some time. So great to see him back doing his thing in Italy. It's funny how he's like, you know, when he first broke on the scene, he was this like blazing comet off the wing where he would just, you know, he was just dribbling past people cutting in, getting to the end line, cutting it back. and it's been interesting to see him develop this

other skill set which is clever movement in the box arriving in the box and I mean particularly on that second goal like you said like you said with the first one it's it's about the quickness of the shot as much as anything the way he kills the ball and then quickly releases it but the second goal is similar because it's not like he he didn't hit it that well but he hit it first time and he got it on frame and it happened fast

and the movement to get into that spot, you know, the kind of curling run, and then he, like, arrives at the spot between the defenders where the ball is played. It just is interesting to see him develop as a player, you know. You see a lot of this with guys as they get older. Like when they're younger, they rely on, you know, their explosiveness, their, you know, their skill, for lack of a better word, to beat guys. And when you have that in your bag, when you can beat players one-on-one like Christian Polisagas or Ken, why wouldn't you use that?

But you see as players get older and sometimes it's, you know, they don't have that ability anymore. And we know, I'm not saying Christian doesn't, but we know he's been beset by soft tissue injuries over the years. And I think players are often forced to get smarter and to use their brains a bit more. And at the end of the day, this is a sport that's played with your brain. I mean, you have to have all the skills to do what your mind wants. But, you know, Leonel Messi is the best player in the world, but he's also the smartest

player in the world. And I think, you know, Christians, he's at an age where he's just now entering his prime. And I think he can get even better than he is now. And part of that is the maturity and understanding, you know, what to do in certain situations. And that game, you know, you illustrated it perfectly. That's the best example, you know, we could see from him. I saw somebody, I saw somebody say something kind of funny, funny, because it seems a little bit true, which is, it's, uh, Pulisic's modeling his game. on chichorito which which like it's kind of there's some truth to it you know how chichirito became this like fox in the box and uh it was a really smart movement anyway the front they love him in

milan of course the front page of le gazetto le gazetta del sport which is published in milan by the way said the big headline was pulisic is the cure you know they're having fun they're having fun with that i love the reaction after bells like the way the way he went over to the fans the way his teammates mobbed him, the way he grabbed the crowd. I mean, like, that fire, like, that's what you want to see, you know, whether it's Milan or the national team. He is immersed himself very quickly in that club and become an icon very quickly. And it's very clear he's, I thought he was the best player last year,

but there's no doubt about it that he's their best player this year. I know. I mean, it's crazy. Like, if you would have told me two years ago, he was going to be more important to the team than Raphaeliao. I would have said you're crazy, but it appears to be the case now. Let's just go through the weekend action, exactly the opposite of what I told you we were going to do when we started. Another goal, oh, no, we got to talk about Kenny.

McKinney. So I know you saw this. Once again, quite good in the middle third and even in the final third, running up and down that right flank, tucking into the channel. looks so fit and in command of the fine details. And then he provided the decisive moment in the game against Paphos, a club from Cyprus. What did you see? I know you saw the goal.

I did. Well, I saw the first, I think the goal came around 68, somewhere in there, after the hour mark. For the first hour of that game, Juventus was up against it. Yeah. You know, like, so you look at the result and it looks like an easy win if you didn't watch the game or you're bouncing around watching, you know, Man City and Real Madrid, right? Like, that was a really hard game for you, then. So it's like, it's not even the fact that he scored that goal.

It's like that goal was so, so important in that moment, like to get, for them to get that goal. And you're right, just an incredible bit of skill. And I'll say it again, I think we take Weston McKinney for granted. I think he's underrated. Like, he's, he's, and part of it is. because not to the degree of some other players, but I don't think he's performed quite as well for the national team as he has for Juventus.

But, I mean, I watch this guy every week, and we've seen him. I mean, how many brilliant Champions League performances does he have to have? How many great Champions League goals does he need to score over the course of many years for people to say, you know, this guy is something different than we've ever had as a country? You know, just a starter no matter, you know, for five seasons now under four different,

coaches five, if you include an interim coach there. And he just, you know, no matter who comes in, he manages to either keep his place or win his place back and contribute when his team really needs him. So, yeah, really good. Another great sign for the national team because I do think, you know, there's some question whether Wes will even be involved next summer. And I think that's very deliberate from, from Pocitino and the staff in order to get the best out of him and make him desperate, which is a word that Bricio's used, to,

be on the World Cup team this summer. And I mean, you remember the 2022 World Cup bills. I thought he was phenomenal, especially that England game. That Copa America was a big strike against him, I think. You know, didn't show up prepared for that tournament, didn't play well at all. And I don't think he made the best impression on Pachitino in March. But he came back in, it was the October window. And, you know, again, looked super fit.

And he's doing everything he can. you know, the staff wants players to perform, and he's absolutely doing that for Juventus. And, you know, I think that he's showing how desperate in Pontchino's words he is to play a major role for the U.S. team next summer. Because I do think, you know, he was scared at some point that maybe I don't get the chance and that fear of God has worked. And I think it's something that Western responds to him.

I mean, we've seen it with Juventus over the years. I mean, we all know, they change his number every year and give away his parking space and try to get rid of him. And every year, he comes back and he performs. And there is a, you know, I've talked to enough people to say there is a sense that maybe that's how you get the best out of Weston. And that's what coaching is all about. You know, how do you get the best out of your players? And, you know, Wes is playing as well as I've seen him at the moment. Yeah.

I mean, fear's a great motivator for me, too. So I identify with that. And it's true. And it is true. He's been playing with or he's been prepared and fit and playing hard and like playing, I mean, you know, 180 minutes a week basically for the past two months. But this goal is, you know, it's that one of those like not rare, but occasional flashes you get from him of just quality. Because like he gets the ball with the back to goal. Takes like a clean little touch to his left and then just roofs it.

You know, I mean, just a beautiful goal. And because of what you mentioned, the fact that Turin, I mean, not Torino, Pafos was the better team in the first half by quite a distance. The crowd in Turin was like pissed. They were not happy. And so, and the goal was so fast and so sort of surprising. You almost didn't hear that like normal roar of approving. when a goal is scored, especially one like that, because it was so quick, and the scene there was so kind of toxic because you may look like crap,

that it almost didn't get its due in the stadium. I mean, everybody appreciates it, but, you know, it was kind of odd that way, I guess. But, man, what a nice goal. What a nice goal. He can do stuff like that. His technical ability is underrated. I mean, you think of the engine, the power, you know, the run all day. He's a brilliant technical player.

I mean, he's incredible and tight spaces. And for a big guy to have the feed he has, he's a phenomenal player. And I think he's key to the U.S. chances at the World Cup next summer. But he needs to be at his best. And, you know, he looks like he's on his way. Yeah. Clean-shaven too.

I've mentioned it before, but it's been clean-shaven for months now. Yeah, he's all business. I mean, he's a military kid, right? So he knows what discipline's about. and I do think he responds to it. I really do. Let's move to Balagan. He scored a goal in Champions League.

This was kind of funny because he missed like three big chances in this game. I mean, the first one was a tough kind of off-balance header, so I don't ding him too much for that one. But the second would be described by some as a sitter. It's like cut back. It's like squared across the goal to him all. He has to open up his body and like pass it in at the far post. Instead, he kind of shanks it left of the near post.

And then he blasts one over the keeper after getting played in, embodying his guy to get the edge. And then ironically enough, he scores on a, it's like a scramble on a corner kick and he just like knees it in. So they all count the same. For sure. And it's a game winner in the Champions League. So, I mean, it's hard to argue. And strikers have to have short memories. What I love about Balo is he's ferocious.

He has a short memory, which is what you need to have as a striker. And he doesn't stop. If he misses a chance, he doesn't let it get to him. He keeps working hard. And if you do that, you're going to get the next chance. And he got the one that counted. His team won. And I'm sure he's not thinking about the chances he missed.

You know, you forget the ones you miss and you remember the ones. you scored and that's what he did. And we talked about it before. I know we'll talk about Pepey in a bit. I'm not sure Balligan is quite as lethal a striker as Pepe is. I mean, whenever Pepe gets a chance, he seems to score it. But I think overall, like the fight he brings, not to say Pepey doesn't fight, but the, like, the relentlessness in Balagin's game, I think, is a really important thing.

We saw it in the last number of windows this fall with the U.S. team. And it's really important. it's contagious. It makes your teammates, you know, play as hard as you do. And, you know, strikers have a reputation of, you know, of being selfish. And I don't think Balagan is. I mean, he wants to score. But he's a real team player. And I think you've seen that. You know, I watched this game over the weekend. Like, when Monaco scores, like, he had chances in that game. When they score, he doesn't get the goal. He celebrates like he scored. And that's, that's a great, a great thing, a great sign.

And yeah, he's another guy who will be incredibly important for the U.S. next year. You know, something that I totally agree with all that. One thing that separates him from Pepe, I think, is illustrated by that third chance, the one he blasts over because it's a ball that's played in behind. It's not a perfect pass. It's not a perfect situation. But he has this combination. We talk about this on our podcast all the time.

but a combination of quickness and leverage and strength where he can get between the center back and the ball and then get a shot off, which I'm not saying I don't know for sure. I'd have to go back and watch it really carefully. I'm not sure Pepe wouldn't get that chance, but I kind of doubt it, you know, because he'd just get bodied off the ball before he even happens.

And yeah, he should have finished it better. If he puts it on frame, he probably beats the goalkeeper because the goalkeeper was guessing the far post. He just has to blast it into the goal. But that's a chance. That shot is a chance that I don't think most of the strikers in our pool even get to begin with. You know, our friend Sanjay wrote a really good profile of Ballo, went over to Monaco and spent some time with him. And like, I didn't even realize that he had spent most of his youth career as a winger.

And, you know, he talked about how the timing, like, the timing of his runs and stuff like that. Like that's his strength. And a lot of that comes from, I think, being a winger. And you're right. Like having to body a guy, you know, in those wide areas is something that he's used to. And it's something a lot of strikers aren't comfortable with. And he's really, really good at it. And, you know, I thought that was insightful.

Like, I didn't know that about him. And I think about it all the time when I watch him play now. Huh. I didn't know that either. I haven't read that profile even. I'm like, you know, Sanjay's on the podcast all the time. Is that, was it in a back here? It might have been, yeah.

I don't remember exactly, but yeah, it's, I mean, he should be plugging his own work on the showbells. So that's, yeah, I should be a little more welcoming. So let's talk about Pepe because he scores again, this time off the BN versus Athletico. PSV lost, kind of unlucky. They almost equalized at the end with Obispo, the centerback kind of missing a chance. But it's just like you said, I mean, he's so lethal. He's so alert and active off the ball. the space at the back post on a

flicked on corner kick and just kind of tapped it tapped it home from like knee height kind of flying around the defender the commentator goes give him an inch and he'll give you a goal so he's like he even has a reputation with the world feed guys about being

kind of a poacher. I mean I watched this game for PSV over the weekend from the airport in DC on Saturday morning and even the goal he scored in that game. Like the angle's not great. And as soon as the ball went out to him, I'm like, does he try to play it across? Does he take a touch?

And no, of course he didn't. You just hit it first time and with pace and right into the net. And that's what he does. The guy just scores goals. And it's just he got the start in that game, I think, on the weekend because we knew that Gusto was going to start. And I think still Till started that game as well. They were up front together.

But, you know, it's just, it's an unfortunate situation because Pepey waited for his chance for two years with Luke De Jong in front of him, you know, an iconic Dutch player, PSV legend. And then, you know, PSV says, Peppy's our guy. We're going to go with him. DeYoung leaves. And then Gus Till, you know, Pappy obviously had that injury. But the plan, I think, you know, Peter Boch said that the plan was for him to be the number one striker. But he, you know, Gus Hill gets an opportunity and he takes it. And he's just been scoring all the time. And he score the opener in that game. So Pepe's doing everything he possibly can do, which is score every time he gets on the

field. But I feel for the guy because, you know, he deserves to be a starter, but that's how it works, right? If someone else gets the opportunity for whatever reason and they take it, they're going to stay. And Bosch said that, like, I can't change a winning lineup. The team's winning till scoring, that's how it is. And, you know, it's not how I think Pepe thought this season was going to go. But again, he's doing everything he can.

It's a long season. A lot of things can happen between now and June. As long as he keeps scoring goals, I think everything's going to be fine. And there's no question he's going to do that because he's proven that he can do that over the last, you know, number of years now in Europe. Yeah. Yeah. I think it'll shake out. I think he'll, you know, I mean, Till might get hurt.

I mean, it is true. It's like if you get hurt, you might lose. your spot. It's like nothing to do with merit. Just real quick, Tillman is, you know, they drew Newcastle at home two to two, Leverkusen did. I thought Tillman was actually, you know, it's not like, it doesn't show up on the score sheet or on who scored. I thought he was actually pretty decent in the game. Newcastle was a little, they like hit the post like three times. It was a little unlucky, like, Leverkusen, maybe a little overmatched all in all.

But, I mean, they did produce 17 shots. Any thoughts on Tillman real quick before we? I think the biggest thing with him is just consistency. I mean, I thought he was superb in the, they beat Man City in Manchester. I thought he was great in that game, even though he didn't get on the score sheet. And that team is a little inconsistent. I mean, I watched some of their game against Augsburg over the weekend. They lost, right?

So, like, you know, you're losing, you're beating Man City. away and then you're losing the Bundes League at Augsburg. Like that, you know, on paper that probably shouldn't happen. But, but yeah, I mean, that's the challenge for Tony. Right. Like, yeah, that's the challenge for him. It's just to be consistent. I do think he's, I think he's a special player.

I think he has certain qualities, a certain profile that, you know, that not too many U.S. players have. I'm not convinced he's a locked on, bolted on starter for the U.S. next summer. I think a lot of people after the Gold Cup were. I'm not quite there yet, but he's definitely a guy who's going to be valuable in whatever situation he's in. And a lot of season left for him too. And I do think this season's been a step up for him, you know, moving back to Germany after, you know, his time with PSB. So he's done okay.

It always takes time to settle in even when you're going back to, you know, obviously grew up in Germany. So, you know, he's done well. And I think that he'll, you know, he's starting. he's playing when he's healthy and you can't have much more. Oh, yeah. So I think he's doing just fine. I do sort of wonder, he's a cerebral kind of, he's such a technician. So like likes to like sort of move the defense around and like play simple passes and then do something kind of interesting.

You know, even I, have you ever spoken to? I'm sure you have. Yeah. He's like one of the most fun people to talk to in the pool about soccer, you know, because he's like, he just loves the sport. the sport and um yeah so and so and i but i wonder if that like you know you don't get that sense of like bleeding for the crest whether it's the u.s or the leverkusen or PSV and i do wonder how that jibes with um botchitino you know even though he he cares yeah i think he does and i think it's just his personality i mean again you've spoken to him he's the most laid-back guy there is um i

I think Sebastian Burralter had the best quote on Tillman or something. He was talking about, you know, it's like ahead of the Gold Cup finals, like talking about pressure and he's like something like, I don't think, you know, or stress or whatever, it's like, I don't think Malik's been stressed the day in his life. And that's how he comes across. But that doesn't, I mean, that doesn't mean he doesn't care. You don't get to the level that he's at if you don't have, you know, some fire in you, a lot of fire in you.

So don't, don't be fooled. And I think there's a lot of guys like that, you know, these guys are all. you know, they're all warriors. They wouldn't have gotten where they are without having that. So, yeah, he's an important player. I wouldn't, I would not say like he, you know, I understand the frustration with him sometimes. Like he looks so, he's so smooth and so graceful. And I think that, you know, that kind of hurts the perception that people have of him.

Like, oh, he doesn't, you know, doesn't bleed for the crest. I don't think that's true. I think he absolutely does, yeah. Okay, okay. Let's take a break, come back and talk about. about Potch doing some mainstream media, like some general stuff about the impact of the World Cup. And, you know, we got to talk about MLS Cup final,

into Miami lifting the trophy. But first, join the Patreon. The link is in the show notes, and you get the every episode ad-free. Also, I'm going to put a link to this in the show notes as well, but we're scheming a trip to Germany. We went to Italy two years ago and last year. in the spring, and we just want to gauge interest, like mid-April.

See Leverkusen, see Gladbach. It's like the whole trip ultimately is about as expensive as going to three World Cup games. So, you know, think about it that way. But anyway, check out the link in the show notes. If you are at all interested in going on this trip, let us know by filling out that form, and then we'll kind of go from there. All right.

We'll be back in a minute. All right, we're back. first of all, Doug, Potch doing the mainstream media. He was on the morning shows. He was hobnobbing with the elites. Talked to Pat McCaffey. What did you think of all that?

I saw him on with Pat. And he's such a charmer, right? Like, he knows what he's doing. And you could see that, you know, Pat was smitten. And he knows how to turn it on, Maricio does. When, you know, when the lights are on, he knows what to say. He knows the audience that he's speaking to. He's a smart guy.

And, you know, I loved it. I thought, you know, the why not us, right? Like that, you know, how does that not get any, any fan of the U.S. team going? Mainstream fans who need to get on board. And that's what we're talking about here. So, Pachino, he's spoken a lot about the need for the public to get behind this team at the World Cup and how important that'll be. And I think that's all part of it. You know, I think that during the Gold Cup and he spoke about this a little bit, like,

He was sort of shocked at, you know, how many away fans were in the building against Guatemala, right, in St. Louis. Or, you know, even the final against Mexico, which is 80, 20 at best, in Houston. But the World Cup's going to be different. I mean, you are going to have a home field advantage, and that's something the U.S. team often doesn't have at home. And it is going to be important. And just the momentum of, and I think he talked about this as well on Pat's show. excuse me um where like if you know once you if you can win a game or you you give the you know he was talking about the uruguay game and and how like he mentioned the tackle which i thought

was really interesting the tackle that timmy till one made right like not a guy who's been around not going to use the word regulars or or not regular right not going to go there but we haven't got into that but you know he he's right though he makes he makes a tackle and and he's like that's what the and it obviously leads to a great goal by alix freeman uh And he said, like, that's something that I think people can get behind. And he's right. And he's right. You know, no one owes the U.S. team support just because they have the USA on their crest.

Like, you have to earn it. Like, you have, you know, being a fan is optional of whatever it is. So you have to, you know, and I think he gets this. He wants a team that the public can be proud of and feels like represents them. And I think Americans know that the U.S. is not the favorite. to win the World Cup, but they want to see a team that is willing to leave it all out there and fight for the chance to win. And that's what you can ask for.

But that's also the minimum requirement, right? Like, that's the non-negotiable. And that's what, I mean, when you think back to when he first started, when he was hired, like, that's what his message has been all along. And I do think we're starting to see that plan come to fruition. And the World Cup is something that, and we've talked about this in the past, spells where attention spans are short these days. And even for us, like, we're looking at what's ahead.

We're looking at the club games. And, like, the World Cup's going to land on our doorstep. And we're not, you know, as prepared as we all think we are for it, we're not going to know what hit is. And, you know, it's even more so for the public. Like, it's something that's not really on the radar. And then bang, it's going to hit. And then, you know, if the U.S. wins that first game against Paraguay, you are going

to see this country lose its collective mind and get behind that team in a way that you know, I don't think we've seen very often. It happens to a degree at every World Cup, but I just think with the tournament here on home soil, the games are in prime time, like everything is setting up for it to be just something different. I know we'll get into the impact of the World Cup later, but like having the fans on board and having that momentum,

like can carry a team far. And I think that he knows, Maricio Pachino knows that the U.S., they need that. They need a lot of other things too, but they need that to be successful next summer. I'm getting chills, Doug. I'm getting really excited over here.

So I loved in the McCaffey clip how he brought up, you know, he brought up the moon. Yeah, yeah. You were the first, you were the first country to go to the, to arrive at the moon. And McCaffey was like, it was like, yeah, you know, he really does know his audience. And would you say, I know you're not like a media critic or anything, but would you say McCaffee, like the most influential sort of sports? He's got to be up there. I mean, he's got to be up there. And he has a background in soccer, too, which I think is really interesting.

So he's in a way, it's more authentic when it comes from him, nothing against someone like Stephen A, who is phenomenal in what he does, right? But he's not a soccer guy, right? He's not. And, you know, I think Pat McAfee's a bit younger. He kind of has grown up with the sport in a way that a lot of, you know, the Tony Kornheisers of the world and Michael Wilbonds haven't. And, you know, he represents what I'm.

where I think a lot of people around the same age are in this country. Like we've all grown up with the U.S. in World Cups regularly, which is something that, you know, the older generations didn't have. And, you know, you're aware of it. It's something that every four years you set your clock by and everyone tunes in to see how the men's team does at the World Cup, how the women's team does at the World Cup, how U.S. teams do with the Olympics. Like, it's just, it's part of the cadence of sports culture in this country now.

And, yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, I think he, He speaks to that really well. I'm going to do a shameless plug here, Bells. Do as many shameless plug here, excuse me. So I have a story coming out later today. We're recording this. It's exactly six months out from the start of the World Cup.

I was at an event last week with the Maricio was also at in New York City. And he spoke about how the story of the 1980 Olympic men's hockey team winning the gold medal resonated with him. he was recommended it was recommended to him that he see the movie miracle which is the story of that you know iconic sports moment one of the greatest upsets in sports history not just american sports history right so um like he's really leaning leaning into that idea that like there's no limit on what can be accomplished next summer and if you can't if you can't believe that you can do something that everyone thought was impossible like going to the moon then we're what's the point of doing this, right?

Like, why, it doesn't cost you anything to dream or to believe. And you may get there, you may not, but that's the starting point. You have to think you can do something that no one else thinks can be done. And there is something that's inherently American about that idea. I mean, when you look at what some of the things this country's given in the world, I mean, right, flight, you know, like the internet, like, right? Yeah. The first country.

Some good, some bad. But some good, some bad, but always impressive. For sure. Always impressive. For sure. But that's, and I think that's something that a lot of outsiders, like when they think of the U.S., that's what they think of. And I don't think Maricio Pachito is any different. He, you know, he consumes American, you know, popular culture like everyone else does in the world.

Like he likes movies and TV shows and things like that. And I think that's part of the reason that he was so. enchanted by this, this project, right? Like all coaches, they talk about the project. This is a hell of a project, right? He gets someone, his phone rings, two years out from the World Cup, come help us, you know, have the best World Cup we possibly can. We have this opportunity that World Cup's here in the U.S.

Help us achieve something great. And I really, I think that's why he's here. So this is all part of the plan. And I just, it's, the story is, I think it's a good story. a little bit biased, obviously, but the fact that he keeps referencing, and the one thing, the line he keeps referencing,

it's from the movie, that, you know, we're not looking for the, we're not looking for the best players, we're looking for the right players. Right. And if you want, you know,

you know the story of Herb Brooks, the Olympic coach, like, what he did was he built a team over the course of many months and maybe even years to, to get to that spot, to,

for that group of, players to believe they could win that one game against a team, frankly, they had no business even being on the same ice. These were college kids, right, playing against a team of fully professional, you know, fully professionals. A lot of those guys, like they ended up becoming NHL stars, going to the Hall of Fame, whatever, right? Like, most of the, you know, some of those Olympic guys never even made it to the NHL.

Mike Ruzioni never played professional hockey, right? It's hard to believe. Yeah. So, like, that idea that, you know, A group of people that believe in something impossible can make that impossible to the reality. And you've heard him say that over and over, you know, not just in, you know, to us, but now doing these mainstream media appearances.

And that's something that the American public can get behind. So I think that's the perfect intersection for you, Miracle and Pachitino. I mean, you are, you were made for this. That's what I, that's what I told him. Yeah. So, so that story's coming out later today. All right. Can't wait to read it.

If I, if I, if I, if it comes out before I publish the episode, I'll put it, I put it the link in the show notes. And I probably will tuck it in there either way. You know, it does seem like Potch. It's kind of ironic. I've talked about this with some other people. It's kind of ironic that Potch has brought in like this, like the fanciest coach we've ever had with all due respect to Yorgen Cleansman.

You know, he's like the most high level elite. soccer coach that the men's national team has ever had. Comes in and like his, the main thing he's done is introduce humility to the player pool or not the, maybe it's not the main thing, but it's one thing he's done. It's one thing he's. I agree with you. Yeah. And he has the, you know,

the, the resume to back it up, right? Like he's, what are you going to say to him, right? Like, he's coached Messian and Moppaia and Namar and Harry Kane and son and you go down the list. Like, he's not impressed by it. And nor should he be. And if he demands it, then you got to give it to him and check your ego at the door. And it's not about you or what club you play for. It's about the national team and doing this together.

And it's his way of the highway. He's an old school guy in a lot of ways, as progressive as he is. And as charming as he is and affable and he is all those things, he is ruthless. And, you know, like, you're not a centerback from Argentina that, plays for your national team in a World Cup without being a little bit of a psychopath. And he is. He is. And we saw a glimpse of that.

I saw that myself in that press conference. But, you know, that's what champions are and the guy's a winner. And, you know, it is rubbing off on this player pool. And it's exactly what they needed. He was the, you know, I agree with, you know, Pat McAfee. He was the right guy at the right time. And look, we'll see what happens. but, you know, for all the questions that everyone had after March, after that South Korea game,

which I didn't think was good at all, even though Maricio said otherwise, you know, he said there was a plan and it does look like, you know, that that plan is where it needs to be at this point. It's not finished yet, and he'll be judged like every coach by the results, you know, at the World Cup or the results at any major tournament. But, you know, the U.S. team's at a better place than it was a year ago. I don't think there's not even bad about that. Absolutely, yeah. And one last thought on this is when I think of Argentina,

when I think about Pach's attitude about competing, I can't help but think of that Argentina versus Columbia, Copa America final two summers ago. Yeah, we talked about this before, yeah. Yeah, I know. I mean, we got to talk about it again, Because, like, it's just, you look at those players, you know, the best team in the world, they had just won the World Cup, the best player in the world, and there was no sense of entitlement out there, you know? I mean, they look like they were a bunch of blue-collar guys going to the factory with their, you know, with their family's livelihood on the line that for 120 minutes.

And it's, it's, and I remember thinking, like, there's no way, the way we play currently, we could with, stand this like this magnitude of pressure for 15 minutes you know we being the u.s and so it's and that's another way he's the right guy for the job because as much as we talk about america loves a fight a fighting team i mean Argentina is the gold standard the interesting thing is like that is in the american DNA and like that's been the DNA of this national team for years or it was for years um so a lot of it's just getting that back right like that that to me is what it was like the U.S. team always played with a chip on its shoulder, always. And it enabled them to punch above their weight for years, you know, at the World Cup level. And, you know, somewhere

along the way, that slipped a little because I think it was new for all of us to have players at Barcelona and Milan and Juventus. And but if you don't have the fight, man, nothing else matters. And Oxtonino identified that right away, right away. Okay, so this is almost too much to get into, but what will, you know, what's your, give me, give me like two minutes on what do you think the impact of the World Cup will be. If we beat Paraguay in that first game, the entire country gets behind the team. You know, I know we're not supposed to talk about it, but, you know, say we make it to a quarterfinal. That's like, that'll be six games, right?

that'll be the sixth game if we get to a quarterfinal. If the country's already behind us after Paraguay, then that's a lot of excitement. You know, it's really interesting. You said we're not allowed to talk about it. I find that really interesting because, like, so in the story I'm writing for today or wrote for today, like Yergen Klinsman on the eve of the 2014 World Cup said,

US can't win the World Cup, right? Like, I mean, that's kind of a crazy thing for national team coach. Bruce Arminus said the same thing in 2002, by the way. And then, but privately, he's like we're going to beat Portugal and they did and they obviously went on this incredible run. Like, you know, you're supposed to talk about it, right? Like, I think it's great that Pontchino's out there saying like, so I was in the press, the press comments with him after the draw on Friday in D.C.

And Ron Blum asked a question, you know, about this, you know, success next summer, right? What, you know, how do you get success? And before, and he actually misunderstood the. question a little bit, but like he cut off Ron and was like win the World Cup. Like he is not making any boat. He's not like, well, we want to go as far as we can. He's like, we want to win the World Cup. And we're not shy about talking about it.

Like, we're good. So it's hard to say how, what the impact of the tournament will be, right? A lot of it depends on how far the U.S. team goes, how long they stay in. And the great thing about World Cup is if you win a round of 16 game or around a 32, game in this instance, right? Like, now you have three, four, five days, whatever, till the next game. And, like, the momentum builds during that. And then if you win around a 16 game to the quarter final, same thing.

And if you can get to a semi-final, right? Like, it built. So, like, that, how that builds is, you know, that can, it's like a snowball and it can become, you know, just massive. So there's, I think there's two questions here, Bells, right? Like there's, you know, how big will the World Cup be as it's going on? And I just think it'll be off the charts, like nothing we've ever seen. And then what's the last, like the lasting legacy of it?

And I think that, like, that second part of it, I have to believe, and I would like to believe that we can barely imagine what, you know, what it'll do for the sport in the country. Can it do what the 94 World Cup did? I don't, I mean, if it did half as much, right? What's the legacy of 1994? made soccer mainstream in America for the most part, right? Created Major League Soccer where, you know, now there's 30 teams, just, you know, just about every city, major city in the U.S. and Canada has an MLST, right,

with more on the way. So, you know, is there 60? Yeah, it's like before and after, before and after 94 is like Genesis 1. Sure, you went from just about nothing. I mean, the sport essentially didn't exist in the U.S. to like now it exists. So, like, I don't know that you can have that kind of leap, But I would like to think it could have an impact like that. And what I would love to see more than anything is for, you know, at some point for the U.S.

to have one of the best domestic leagues in the world, like legit, like top three, four leagues in the world. And we'll talk about I'm less company a minute, but like there's still a ways off from that. So I would like to see that being the lasting legacy. And then just, you know, that people know the players more, that you're, there's just more. fans. There's just more people that care about this stuff the way we all do. It's such a big country. There's so many choices. There's so many things you can be into. There's so many sports. Plenty of people aren't even into sports at all. So like if you can just get a little bit more of that audience, then, you know, the sky's the limit. I just, the thing that's always

drawn me to this sport and to working in this sport in particular is, you know, how much room there is to grow. There's very few things in life where you can get in on the ground floor. And and watch it grow and be part of that. And I mean, it's been amazing to see. And it's only going to continue. And the World Cup will just accelerate, I think beyond all our wildest dreams, I really do. I'm looking for whether one of the baseball or basketball dads

in my town in northwest Georgia, if I noticed that they're, like, kind of paying attention, you know? Because there's a lot of people, like, a lot of people who love sports and, I mean, frankly, love America. Yeah. And want to, would get behind a team that was tackling the way Pachitino pointed out on the Pat McCaffey show. And you can learn so much about soccer if you really sit down and watch just for 90 minutes. You know, you can, like, figure out a lot.

Because I think back to when I was a kid, like, basically, I just watched the World Cup games. Probably always available, really, right? There's not too many. You couldn't watch soccer the way you can today. Yeah. We didn't have cable. We didn't have a satellite dish, you know. So, all right.

Yeah, I mean, I hope it's obviously a huge, huge impact. So inner Miami wins MLS Cup. Seems good for the sport too, for it to have messy lift the trophy. We don't know what the ratings are yet, right? But probably going to be a record breaker. Is that fair to say? I think so. I have no idea to be honest.

But yeah, yeah, I mean, Listen, that's the final we all. Like, anytime there's a story like that where you have a compelling athlete going for something that they haven't won before, it's not quite messy trying to win the World Cup, but I thought it was a really good final. I thought it was a good game. I thought Vancouver acquitted themselves really well and hats off to the white caps for the season they had. Amazing from start to finish. And the one thing I hope that the takeaway, and I wrote this after, is that, like, if Vancouver had won, there's an idea in MLS that spending money doesn't correlate to winning. I think that's why you've seen a lot of owner.

And there's some truth to that. There's no doubt about it. And I think that's why you've seen a lot of owners reluctant to loosen the purse strings, right? Why am I going to spend more money if it doesn't ensure that I win? Well, the team that spent the most money won. And in that game, that was the difference in the end. Right. Like, Virgil de Paul scores the game winner.

Messies involved in all three goals. The architect all three goals, right? Like, if you go and get the best players, your chances of winning increase exponentially. It's as simple as that. That's how it is in any sport. That's how it should be. And so I think it was good for the sport. It's good for the league, obviously, that Miami won.

And now I want to see owners step up and spend not a lot. just a little bit more money, but a lot more money on making the product, not just better, but if they, you know, Don Garber, I was at his state of the league address on Thursday night in D.C. And he said, you know, for the next 30 years, the plan is to, and the goal is to become one of the best leagues in the world. Well, that's going to require spending money the way other leagues in the world do. And until you do that, you're not going to be. It's as simple as that. So I hope that that. at least Miami's win pushes that needle in the right direction and that the World Cup, you know, helps with that as well and that we get a lot closer to that. Hopefully a lot, you know, sooner than 30 years. I'm hoping in the next, I don't know, decade or so MLS looks completely unlike it does today. And MLS teams can stand toe to toe with the best teams in the world, which right now they can't. We saw that at the Club World Cup. We've seen it in Concordcaf Champions Cup league play for,

decades. And it needs to change. It's as simple as that. It's about results in this sport. And, you know, the results haven't been there on the international front for MLS teams. And, you know, at some point, I want to see that change. And I don't. There's no doubt about that last part.

But on the, on the evidence of this final, let me, let me be an advocate for Bill McGuire, you know, who, you know, wants to, wants to not spend very much money in Minnesota. and say, okay, let's look at this final. What's the difference in the game? The difference is Leonel Messi. Like, take out Leonel Messi put in Namar, who would cost probably less. I mean, Namar is maybe a bad example because he's like significantly washed at this point. But, you know, another late in their career player.

Does Vancouver lose this game to that team? I don't know. I don't know. Messy is the, Messi is just different. I mean, you know, you heard it here first. Well, there's a reason he gets paid more than 20 other teams in the league combined, Adam. So that's part of, and the funny thing is like, I, you know, part of me thinks, like, I agree with you, obviously. Like, they don't win that game without messy.

To me, the guy that won the game was Rodrigo to Paul, right? That's a guy who keeps, what is he, 31, right? Like, you have, you're talking about World Cup winners, right? All the World Cup winners on the field. Vancouver had won and Thomas Mueller, right? Yeah. Miami had Jordi Alba

Jordan Alba Did he win the World Cup in 2020? Yeah he did right Buscettes did right So they got World Cup winners right on the field but Rodrigo de Paul won the 2020 World Cup

right he didn't win it in 2010 or 2014 he won the last World Cup he's still in his prime he could still be playing for Athletico Madrid and instead he came to MLS in his prime and he scored the game winning goal in that game and that was the difference

on a very micro level, right? He came in halfway through the year. He was the guy, and he scored the game winner in the final. So you need more players like that. Guys that are still, you know, they didn't win the World Cup 15 years ago or more, right? Or whatever, you know what I'm saying. You have guys that are the best right now, right? I'd like to see Alaino Messi come to MLS now.

I know he just came six months after win the World Cup. But it'd be great to have a 30-year-old. old messy or the next messy or whatever in MLS, right, instead of the 38 year old version. And I know that that's, you know, still a pipe dream, but if you can't dream it, you can't do it, right? That's right. That's as Potch might say. Okay. Oh, I wanted one other, just like a little side note, that Emmanuel Sabi chance, you know,

Manuel Sabi, the sickos will know he used to play for the youth national teams. He has been capped a couple times by the men's national team to have. have him be an inch from scoring the go-ahead goal in the 60 what second minute or so. It would have been a really nice goal too, a really nice play from him. That would have been crazy. It would have been 2-1 Vancouver and maybe everything goes different. Anyway, Doug, fantastic stuff. Thank you so much for your time.

I hope you feel get completely recovered from your illness. We'll see you. Of course, man. Thanks again. Appreciate you. Thank you.