Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #683: The 1990 World Cup team with author Adam Elder

Episode Date: April 17, 2026

Adam Elder, the author of "New Kids in the World Cup," joins Belz to talk about the pivotal 1990 World Cup qualifying campaign and the team that went to Italia '90. We mourn the end of the Concacaf qualifying gauntlet, discuss John Harkes' photographic memory, cover the press corps' antagonism to soccer in the 1980s, the genesis of the music video on the beach, and much more. "New Kids in the World Cup" comes out in paperback soon. Check here: https://newkidsintheworldcup.com/ Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Scuff Podcast, when we talk about U.S. Soccer. Our guest today is a writer and editor whose work has appeared lots of places, including the New York Times, Wired Magazine, and The New Yorker. He's based in San Diego, and for our purposes, he is the author of New Kids in the World Cup. A 2002 book about the 1990 World Cup team, including Paul Calajuri, Tab Ramos, John Harks, Tony Miola, and Mike Windishman. to name a few. It's a book really about a pivotal moment in the history of the game in America. And I recommend it. The author, Adam, Elder is here. Welcome, Adam, to scuffed. Hey, thanks for having me. I'm really proud to be here. Appreciate your time. So, I mean, first, a very non-socker question, which is probably going to be almost impossible to answer, but I'm going to

ask it anyway. One thing that really sticks out for me from reading the book is how, how different the 80s were from today. And I want to get your thought. I mean, surely that's something you thought about. You wrote about it, some in the book. Outside of even soccer, Adam Elder, what's the difference between the 1980s and the 2020s? That's tough.

And I do think soccer plays a part in the answer to this question. But, you know, just the whole level of optimism. I think that, and we don't know political here or anything, but just the level of optimism that I think Americans and us as a country had really, I mean, you know, the

Cold War was ending and we were obviously coming out on top. Yeah. And, you know, there were all these just new sports coming along. Even the fashion was bright. The music was, you know, a lot of critics of the time and after would say that, you know, the

pop culture was, you know, kind of sugar-fills. and hollow and whatever, but it was nonetheless, you know, pretty, pretty optimistic. And there was just this, I don't know, I mean, it was also, I should say, a time in my life where I was entering adolescence and my home life was changing in a lot of ways, like shortly after all of this happened. And so it kind of felt like the last part of like, you know, my own childhood, innocence in a way. And so it just, just the mood was, was so different.

And yet, among all that, you know, soccer was just like so hated in this country. I mean, our nation was open to all these, you know, sort of new fads, new sports. I remember there was just like a fad, a new fad all the time in the 80s, especially as a kid with, you know, toys and being marketed to and whatnot. And it's like there was room for everything except soccer, at least in the sort of post-NASL pre-1994 World Cup, pre-MLS world. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that optimism, the optimism sticks out to me. Like those guys were all really, everybody seemed so cheerful.

Yeah, and even, you know, looking back at the time and everything, a lot of people were sort of pessimistic about the Reagan years in many ways, in some ways, or at least part of the Reagan years, but in hindsight, it just seems so maybe, you know, maybe hindsight is a little bit rose-colored, but it does seem just like such a different time, like the future just seemed so bright. And not that I'm a doomer. I'm a very optimistic person. Yeah. But just, yeah, with hindsight, it's a really interesting era to look back on for sure. Yeah, if you're looking for brightness in the future, you kind of have to, like, look,

kind of further ahead because it's not like next week, you know? Yeah, let's hope so. A lot of your book is about World Cup qualifying and Concaf, which is, which strikes me as a reader, just how rich that qualifying experience was, the adversity, the drama, the passion. And, you know, you touch on this in the book, but, the expansion to 48 teams at the World Cup, how much does that suck? Oh, God, it sucks, especially for the U.S. this year hosting the tournament. I mean, I think it's somewhat of a double-edged sword.

For years, I'm so glad you brought up Concaf because I just love thinking and talking about it. You know, for so many years, I know you know, people complained about how Concaf just doesn't prepare the U.S. for to face elite competition in the rest of the world. And obviously they do have a point. You know, the quality of soccer is pretty limited. But especially in hindsight, it prepared the U.S. men's national team in so many other ways. You know, it gave them the grit and the determination. I mean, all the little things that a player has to deal with

that you cannot see from camera one. on a TV feed. I remember John Stolmire, the holding midfielder for this team, was telling me just what they would go through. And he would play games in Central America as a youth player. He got his teeth knocked out when he was like 16 in a game against El Salvador. And just what it takes, you get into it with one player. And as you're getting into it,

with them and they're egging you on, all the other opponents gather around you and start poking you and prodding you and, you know, unspeakable places and just trying to do whatever they can to get you to take a swing at them and lose your cool. And so when you go through that for several years, it toughens you up and it makes you keep your cool, which, you know, translates, in Solmire's opinion, in so many other ways, in a way that you. In a way that you. you can trust your teammates on the field to keep their cool, to make good decisions, and really just to like hang in there, you know? And so, um, aside from all that, you know, it was just this, it's just this kind of funny little tradition of, of U.S. soccer that this, it's like this test

that we have to pass every time. And it's not always fun to watch, but I just think it's so fun and interesting. And, you know, another thing, which we're all aware of, but maybe not to the degree, at least that I knew. I remember talking to Paul Caliguri about this many years before I actually wrote the book. Just if you think you know what it's like to play a game, play a Concaf game, like, you have no idea. Just all the shenanigans off the field. We all know what they're like by now, and I went through a lot of them in my book. And it was, it was a especially egregious, you know, in the late 80s. But, you know, basically be prepared not to sleep. Be prepared to be totally comfortable with being uncomfortable. I mean, what you see on the

field, if you see a lower quality of play, it's because of, it's because like everyone's running on no sleep and horrible food. And, you know, they don't tell you on the broadcast or whatever that the bus arrived late at the stadium and like, just all this crazy stuff that, you know, know, we're only seeing 90 minutes on the field, but everything that led up to it makes that 90 minutes very, very difficult. Yeah. The Estadio Cuscatlan is the one that kind of really sticks out to me. Because I still remember, you know, Gio Raina, spring 20, or fall 2021, standing in the

lineup while they're playing the national anthem and some firecrackers go off and he flinches like he's, you know, like he's in a war, he thinks he's in a war zone or something. that poor kid, you know, he's never, he's never experienced anything like this before. And that's the thing. It takes, you know, it just takes a lot of reps of going down there and, you know, probably getting food poisoning or some sort of bacterial illness, not sleeping, you know, hearing police sirens all night, and getting d batteries thrown at you from fans and just all this like flagrantly unsportsmanlike conduct.

I love it. It really does toughen you up and it really does make a difference. And I mean, we can certainly get into this with the present day. But as a, and I don't consider myself a soccer story by any means, probably for better or for worse. But I look at this current team and I just see that that just looks so glaringly lacking to me. Like these guys haven't gone through that. We don't have either the institutional knowledge or at least the muscle memory anymore to have sort of faced and gone through that. you know, that like jungle maze of Conca Calf qualifying full of booby traps. Yeah.

I mean, the tragedy is that it's, we're never going to, it appears, we're never going to get it back. It's never going to happen again. And then it's not just, just to add to your point, it's not just about the players. I think of like the fans and sort of like the content calendar for a, say, you know, just hypothetically, a podcast that covers the U.S. men's national team. Yeah. Yeah. Where is the, where is the, what do we, what do we talk about for the next four years if there's not a qualifying campaign?

Where's the drama? You know, where's the fun? Oh, exactly. Yeah. So. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know where it's, where it's going to come from. That was, you know, such this great tradition, something to not necessarily look forward to, almost dread in some ways.

but but but in in such a fun sort of way um i don't know you're right it creates this not only a hole for for the national team but this like cultural whole for the usm and t band them i don't know it's a great question well we qualified for the 1990 world cup and it was it was very dramatic i let's get into a bunch of that but first just like let's let's say lay out the stakes here. What's the counterfactual had we not qualified? Had Caligari not fired the shot heard around around the world? What would have happened? So there was this persistent rumor. I guess we should back up. Okay. Let's back up. Soccer in the 80s was just in this really, really horrible place, obviously. The NASL had folded. The public and certainly corporate

America wanted nothing to do with soccer. And I recall you spoke with Leander Shalackens a few months ago. He went at a great detail about what the early to mid-80s was like. You know, the U.S. just playing, I think in my book, I think in 1986, they played like two official matches or something. And I remember some years they didn't play any. But anyway, so you had this generation of players who went on to become the 1990. USM&T. A lot of them were first generation immigrants, a lot of them from Europe, you know,

John Harks, Peter Vermeys, Tony Miola, Tabramos from Uruguay, several other examples. They, you know, they came to America at a time when all the greatest stars were in America as well, coming to America, Pelle, Beck & Bauer at George Best, Rinas Michels, Johann Croyo, etc. And they thought they'd died and gone to heaven that, you know, the world's greatest soccer stars had followed them here. And of course, when you're a kid, you grow up and dream of playing the NASL one day. But of course, when they became old enough, it was gone. And no one wanted anything to do with soccer. It was, it's so hard to, like, overstate how much it was hated at the time. I mean, it was, it was just like a punching bag. And, and, and,

like a cheap joke, soccer was. For well into the 90s and even the 2000s, you know, there were a lot of media holdouts. But anyway, so at the same time, the 1984 Olympics, like one of the biggest revenue-generating events in that was Olympic soccer, which, as we know, US Olympic men's soccer, it's it's not this high-profile draw. And yet, I think, God, I forget the exact statistics. But, I mean, even the bronze medal game drew like 70 or 80,000 spectators. I couldn't even tell you who played it in it offhand.

But that got FIFA notice that, like, definitely put them on notice, that they wanted to hold the World Cup here one day. And the guy who became president of the U.S. Soccer Federation, Werner Fricker, was very well aware of that. And he was part of the bid process for 1986, which the U.S. tried, and it went horribly. They were just these sort of outsiders to FIFA. They didn't know, you know, the secret handshake and the secret knock and what, you know, what color tied to wear. I love that passage in the book because, yeah, it's like, it's like, it is, the FIFA is a gentleman's club.

It is, it is, like, does have all these unspoken rules. and then we just roll in with like a bare bones application that didn't really answer any of the questions. Yeah, exactly. Like, hey, everyone come over. It'll be a great time. Like throwing a last minute rager. But, yeah, and so,

Werner Fricker, really interesting guy. We can get into him, if you like, short-lived U.S. Soccer Federation president. He was determined to have soccer become a respect, respectable sport in this country. And he was annoyed that FIFA really only saw the commercial potential in America, but didn't take it seriously as a soccer nation. He absolutely rolled out the red carpet and won the 1994 bid in, it was announced July 4th, 1988, which was like a pretty dead giveaway for who was going to earn the bid. So starting then, he knew that with the 1990 World Cup coming up,

that the U.S. better get good in a hurry and better qualify and not embarrass themselves as a potential host. Because up until then, most World Cups were hosted by a country who was already good at soccer. There was never a question of them, you know, not being good enough to hang. And so he set the wheels in motion in a way that it's hard to dream about like any of the knuckleheads who run US Soccer Federation now doing. The Federation at the time was sitting on about a million dollars in the bank,

which they could have drawn on or borrowed against in order to fund this revolutionary idea of theirs, which was American soccer at the time. Our best players were hitting these ricochet shots in indoor soccer against plastic walls and never heading the ball and sprinting on and off the field like hockey changeovers. And, you know, the only other action really was soccer played in parks every weekend by, you know, in ethnic leagues and whatnot. And so we needed to make a great leap forward.

And so there came the idea that we fund our own team, basically make a full-time team, turn it into a club team. They ended up playing, forget, like 40-some matches over the next year in preparation for the 1990 World Cup. That was going to cost a lot of money because we needed to pay players. We needed to fund training camps. I mean, training camps up until then were like a joke. You never knew, I mean, until late, who was going to show up. And, I mean, that's just a whole other thing we can get into. I'm taking a long time to answer this question, I realize.

That's okay. That's okay. We've got all the time in the world. Nice. The stakes, though, were huge. Because, now, not everyone agrees with this. But to many in the Federation, and especially the way Fricker, who is, like, normally a big-picture guy, started being involved in, like, every little detail in whining and dining FIFA,

there emerged this rumor that if the U.S. doesn't qualify for the 1990 World Cup, that 94 would be taken away. And 94 for soccer in the late 80s was like this unimaginable pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I mean, the sport was flatlining. There's obviously no outdoor professional league. There were a couple that lasted like a season,

the Western Soccer Alliance and things like that. Even the indoor leagues were faltering and like barely hanging onto their lines of credit. And so 1994 was like this, you know, that was everything. That was the promise land, yeah. It was the promise land. It was the player's future.

It was a guarantee that they could keep playing soccer and that they didn't have to get day jobs. Like, those were the stakes. It wasn't, you know, oh, I'll have to, you know, whatever. It was like, oh, I can't play soccer anymore. Right. But this rumor that the 94 World Cup might have been withdrawn had we not qualified for 1990, how, like, what do you think of that?

it was it real or uh it's hard to say no one knows where the rumor came from first of all which i guess is how rumors start so Neil galati denied it um i i spoke with a former administrator the director of marketing um who went on to run u.s club soccer kevin pain who sadly passed away who was absolutely incredible to talk to for the book um he he wasn't sure himself i don't know but My own answer, it's hard to say. I mean, if it spread, maybe it had some teeth, but I don't know. Yeah, that's fair. The other thing is that FIFA is capable of anything.

We've seen that. We're recently with Infantino. They are even capable of banning tailgating at World Cup games. Yeah, I mean, it's a real shot to my. Yeah, for sure. It sounds like a big deal to just like give it to someone else, although they did it in the past. Yeah. And I think, I guess they'd be entirely capable of doing it again.

I mean, in 86, wasn't it supposed to be in Colombia and then they moved it to Mexico? Exactly. Exactly. Yes, that's what I was thinking of. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Anything's possible with FIFA. All right. So the counterfactual is potentially no World Cup in 94.

and, you know, a bunch of guys who might not be able to keep playing even after, you know, after the qualifying campaign. Let's see. Who'd you end up? Before I forget, you mentioned NSL a couple times. I noticed something kind of in your book. You capitalize the H on the pronouns for Pele, the way the Bible capitalizes the H on the pronouns for God. Tell me about that, please. Is that a, is that like a, is that like a style thing?

No. No, not at all. Just a little Easter egg? Yeah, I suppose so. I apologize for any sort of blasphemy that I, that I may have. Oh, don't worry about that. But I, uh, no, I simply, I was having fun with it. And, you know, I, I shamelessly ripped off Tom Wolfe with this book in many, many ways.

My inspiration for it initially was his book about the Mercury Space Program called The Right Stuff. Okay. And I wasn't, it's not like I sat down and was like, what would Tom Wolfe do? But I just thought it was a way of illustrating how, like, sort of special, and I guess in some ways otherworldly Paley was, and how, again, how special it was that he, like, showed up, even though he was obviously compensated handsomely for playing on. playing for the cosmos. Just how, like, sort of, yeah, unique he was. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, what a player.

Yeah. And, like, and such a likable person, too, you know, all the way to his old age. Was your book delayed because of the failure to qualify in 2018? No, but there was, oh, it's funny you mention that. There was some interest in it, but I would have had to write it in a hurry. I see. And then as soon as that happened, the nightmare in Trinidad, all that went away. And then I was back to square one.

But it was kind of a blessing in a way in the sense that I really wasn't prepared to write the book back then. I had gotten the idea originally in 2014 right ahead of the 2014 World Cup. I was on YouTube as I normally am. And that rap video that the 1990 USM&T recorded just came on that sidebar or something. I don't know. I really don't remember it. I just sort of clicked on it one more time and laughed at it. And I thought maybe this would be fun to do a story on it.

So I pitched, I don't know why. I pitched the New Yorker of all places about it. And shout out to Caitlin Kelly. and Nick Thompson, they liked the idea and went on to interview a bunch of the players about it, just to talk about this video. And in doing so, I sort of, I've come to have this theory that a lot of USM and T fans, their sort of knowledge-based or at least interest really starts with when they started paying attention to the team, and it really doesn't go backward.

It kind of only goes forward. That's true. I mean, it's true of me, naturally. True me too. Yeah. You know, I remember watching the 1990 team in Italy in the World Cup. I remember getting a sports illustrative for kids in the mail. And Paul Caligiri, who I'd never heard of, was on the cover at the time. But I was like more interested in the 1990 World Cup the little bit that I saw of it with like just sort of the international flavor, which I'd never had any exposure to. So anyway, you know, I was always aware of this 1990 team. But I never knew much about them or gave them much credit for anything, really. So I was talking to these guys and realized that their story was so good. There were so many elements, the stuff they went through, this sort of like benefactor that they had in Los Angeles, in the shape of Shelley Azoff, wife of Irving Azov, who's like sort of music.

industry kingmaker, who made that music video possible, incidentally. Just their whole story. A milieu, I might add, that has a little bit less shine on it today than it did 10 years ago, you know? Yeah, very much left. And I just thought, this is, and it just dawned on me, like, these guys deserve their own story. Like, no one knows, I mean, a few people know about this, but most people don't.

and I just thought it was absolutely fascinating what they went through. And I'm kind of slow at stuff like this, but it occurred to me like, wow, this is like where things started. This is like the modern origin story of the USM&T. They made everything that came after it possible, maybe not immediately, but down the road. I mean, they were not to fall back on clichés as I'm about to, but they paved the road and they like lay down the institutional knowledge. It was going back to our Concaf conversation a moment ago. They were the first team to actually successfully navigate that passage through Conccaf and show you and show successive generations how it's done.

Yeah, just barely, but they did it. Yes. Oh, it's just barely. Yeah, but, you know, more drama for me, the writer, which is fine. It just seemed like this very classic, to go back to your point a moment ago, sorry to interject, It just, it had all the makings of, you know, a classic story where, you know, the main character wants something. They're having trouble getting it.

And something bad will happen if they don't. Like, it had all that. And it had soccer. And it had, you know, this sort of late 80s sort of microculture that, that I really like with, as we said, the neon clothes and the weird sports and the Marlboro advertising everywhere and the pop music and acid wash jeans. Oh, acid wash jeans, yes. Absolutely.

Shelly Azoff. Let's talk about her a little bit. Great section in the book where you describe Caliguri and one other player going to a party at her house. Is it at her house? No, they met her at somebody else's house. And that's how this whole thing got started, this partnership, if you want to call it that, between Azov and Cal. But why did she, you know, she ended up making that music video happen. She played a role in the formation of the Players Association down the road.

Yeah, right. Why? Why did she do all this? You know, she didn't need any money. She didn't. Right. What was motivating her? She was even a few players agent for several years. Okay.

What was motivating her? Yeah, it's interesting. So Paul had... Let me remember the story. He had a roommate, his roommate at UCLA, who was not a soccer player, became a lawyer, an aspiring musician. They had a buddy who was, I don't know, had like an internship at one of the major record labels. And this is just like such an L.A., it's such a quintessential L.A. story.

I love it. They got invited to this party. It was a party to celebrate George Michael's success, I believe, at the end. MTV Video Music Awards at the head of, shoot, forget the wreck flow. Anyways, Michael Lippman's house. And incidentally, Michael Lippman's brother was once a goalkeeper for UCLA. So, you know, even if the security wouldn't let him in, he probably could have pulled that card. So he walks in this party, fresh off the 88 Olympics, where he'd broken his fifth metatarsal.

He's limping around. He looks anything like a soccer player, limping around this party. party. As he goes in, there's guns and roses. There's Bono. There's Tom Petty. It's, you know, it's such this like fish out of water moment where in any other country, Paul Caligiri, professional soccer player would be mobbed, you know, by anyone and everyone. But he's the nobody at this party. And he eventually goes outside, sits down, and it. And it's, is recognized by Elton John, of all people, who once owned WAPHard. That part's crazy. That part's crazy. Yeah, right. And had owned a stake in the L.A.

Aztecs of the NASL. And he introduces her to, Paul, that is, introduces her to Shelley Azoff. Shelly Azoff, wife of Irving Azov, as we discussed a moment ago. Shelly was obviously familiar with Elton John. she had a little bit of prior experience. She had injured herself. I forget like skiing accident or something like that. And while she was doing physical therapy, she met a soccer player,

incidentally, the USM&T goalkeeper of the day named David Vinole, another UCLA goalkeeper. Vinoli is the most fascinating character. I could talk all day about him, even though he sadly passed and I didn't get the chance to interview him. Anyway, while doing physical therapy, I think Vinoli probably regaled her with all of the typical train wreck stories of being a soccer player in the 80s and everything it entailed. And Shelley is just this type of character who wants to help.

And I think from there she had arranged, because I understand Vanoli had a tryout at Watford that I think Shelley had arranged. but only didn't I don't think it came to anything so she was already familiar with you know sort of the difficulties of American soccer players

and really just thought she could help you know she she all reckoned anyway Paul and her started talking and he started you know telling her all the train wreck stories and she just realized

like immediately you know the the marketer in her saw that, you know, this is a great story. These guys are all young. They're talented. They're going for this, you know, big goal. They're very marketable. And yet no one's like, they're kind of on their own. They don't have, no one's helping them.

It was just kind of like, why not me? If I don't help them, who else is going to do it sort of thing? Yeah. And it went from there. And Shelley went on to later. her and Irving hosted them in their home in Beverly Hills and then in Malibu. She arranged all the stars of the day and a music video producer and Jimmy Iovine and Michael Ross who ran delicious vinyl, rap record label of the day, got O.J. Simpson, another stars

to come in, got entertainment tonight to record it, which and the music video of which, by the way, It was recorded in A&M Studios, which We Are the World was recorded. All the stars were lining. I mean, this was, this should have been big. But we're talking about soccer in 1990. And it just fell flat. I mean, is it a good song, do you think? No, but neither was a Super Bowl shuffle, although it was fun.

It was a little catchier somehow. I don't know. It definitely was. You're right. I think the O.J. Simpson, the O.J. Simpson's citing in that video is just crazy. Especially in hindsight. Yeah. Yeah.

Who, by the way, of course, went on to, in the worst circumstances imaginable, went on to play another unwitting role in American soccer history when the chase sort of overshadowed the opening of the 1994 World Cup, same evening. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Huh. Right. Just hours after Diana Ross missed the penalty kick in the opening ceremonies in Chicago.

Hmm. Man. Okay. You know, you acknowledge a bunch of players at the end of the book for their help and their time, you know, sorting all this out. Who gave you the most? Who gave you the most of all the players? Like, who was the best source? Oh, that's a fascinating question.

You know, a lot of them did in their own way. It's so fun piecing this stuff together because you hear, sometimes you hear different versions of the same story, but mostly you just, you hear different pieces of it. And that way, you know, you piece it all together, and it just creates such an amazing story. I will say John Harks has an absolutely photographic memory. Really?

Yeah, it's fascinating. the conversations he remembers, the music he remembers playing on the team bus, the songs he remembers that other players liked, the, God, everything. Someone who's really eloquent is Desmond Armstrong. He's a really, really fun guy to talk to. He puts everything in this really interesting perspective. In fact, in 2014, when I was talking to them for the story of, about the music video, he was the one who really sort of braim this properly, that this

was such a forgotten generation. And it's interesting, he blames Nike for it, because Nike took over sponsorship in, was it, 1998 or something like that, and thinks they sort of sought to erase, or at least downplay footage of the team prior to that, although I don't know how that explains the 94 team. But nevertheless, let's see. Miola was great. Bruce Murray's funny. I'll tell you, it meant a lot to Peter Vermease.

He was hard to get a hold of, but I got the sense that it was really important to him that he made time. And he offered a lot of perspective on it. I mean, you know, this sort of like, he obviously went on to become a coach, and he just sort of, yeah, he had this very like paternal, fatherly perspective on it. He really, one thing I appreciated about Peter is that he framed it in this really interesting way that I hadn't thought of where you have all of these sons of immigrants who eventually, you know, appeared on the team. And growing up in a household like that, where, you know, your parents speak with an accent, you're not, you're not an apple pie American, which is what they called, you know, all this normal kids. Those households revolved around soccer, you know, the dinner table and everything, which is a tough thing to do in the 80s. It was hard to catch, obviously, on TV or anywhere else.

Yeah. And so to hear all of these stories every night about soccer in the old country and seeing the homeland of your parents qualify for the World Cup, you know, you would – this sounds so trite. And I normally avoid this stuff. But like it honestly makes me a little emotional. But like hearing all that and then like dreaming of taking your own country, the United States, to the World Cup. someday was like really powerful for these guys. And they actually did it. I mean, that's, you know, it hit them. Moments after, spoiler alert, moments after they qualified in Trinidad in November 1989, like, they did it. It just, I don't know. It's, I'm stammering here,

but it was just so monumental when you put it in that perspective. And especially, again, to go back to just how antagonistic our country was towards soccer. I mean, I can name all of them. You know, Joe McNick, incredible resource. Yeah, he's a great dude. He is. He remembers everything. And, you know, he's the type that knows everyone and everything behind the scenes and says, you know, you should talk to him.

You should talk to her. And people I probably wouldn't have talked to had it not been for him. It's those people who are not necessarily in the middle of them. at all, but are kind of gazing at it all, who often have the best stories and the best perspective on things. So, you know, the national team administrators, the trainer, et cetera. Yeah, yeah. One person I did not speak with, sorry, I should mention this though. One person I did not speak with was the coach of the team, Bob Gansler. He didn't want to talk to me about it. I was a little bit miffed at that. He thought, you know, he's, he'd never had a good relationship with

the media. no one did at that time. A lot of the media hated and resented having to cover soccer. Even the beat writers. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let me ask you a question about that. So how much, you say in the describing the scene in Port of Spain, ahead of the qualifier, ahead of the qualifier against Trinidad,

here's a quote from the book, even some of the American sports writers here covering them today seem to be rooting for their failure. Yes. End quote. Tell me more about that, please. Okay. What sense do you get the sense that there were sports writers?

Look, I used to work at a major Metro daily. I know how the sports section, even in 2012, felt about soccer. So we can get into that more. But tell me why you wrote that. Okay, so a lot of the players, you know, a lot of the players would kindly say that, you know, they had to explain the finer nuances of the game. to the reporters.

A lot of them were new at the game. And covering the U.S. men's national team wasn't their beat of choice. You know, they want to do basketball, baseball, football, whatever. It was kind of covered against their will. Now, and the players, as I said, spent a bit of time talking with them

and explaining the game to them. The night before the game, the players are all, I don't know, probably in bed or whatever. And Federation officials are sitting around the bar with a lot of the small press corps following the U.S. soccer team at this hotel in Trinidad that they call the upside down Hilton, which is called that because the hotel starts at the top of a cliff and goes down. So like the pool and everything else at the bottom. I see. Yeah.

And they're sitting around the bar. And one of them, I won't name names. went on to cover the U.S. men's national team for many years afterwards, starts this chant. And it's the chant that Harks would often do. It was an old Carney Army chant from high school, from him and Tony Mielas High School. It was the here we go, here we go, here we go, here we go.

Thing. And this guy was doing it in this sort of mocking way. And I forget what else he was saying. but it was clear he was almost rooting for the team to lose. And Kevin Payne was telling me this whole story, again, former director of marketing for U.S. soccer. He said, and he eventually piped up. He's this tall guy, you know, probably a little intimidating. Kevin is.

Yes, yes. I don't know why you're acting this way, but I do know that tomorrow night, you're going to be asking where the after party is. And everyone's like, yeah, yeah, sure, whatever, Kevin, sure. To answer your question, I don't know. I think they just resented having to cover it. And other people who are there will confirm this happened. And it was just such an odd sense.

Like, we're already the underdogs. Like, first of all, why would you kick us when we're down? And second of all, who of all reporters? I mean, obviously they're like kind of a cynical. and grizzled bunch, but like, how could you resist a story like this? Right. Trying to qualify for the first World Cup in 40 years. Like, what would you possibly have against this?

Now, the team was very frustrated to follow. They hadn't scored in, like, two and a half matches at that point. And they were coming into this must-win game. No one really gave them a chance. But anyway, yeah, it was just, I mean, it was like even the media hates us. even our own media is running against us. That was the attitude. And so, long story short, long story short, the U.S. goes on to win the game,

and the next night, they're sitting around the pool, the Federation representatives, by the way, U.S. Soccer Federation normally never left a scent on the table. Had an open bar that night, picked up the tab, which is big stuff for them. who should walk past the swimming pool but the same reporter and he asked someone sitting next to Kevin who was like sort of hidden behind just so happen to be like hidden behind this little palm tree or something like hey do you know where the after party is or something like and Kevin just like sort of like cranes his neck around the tree and has this huge smile and the guy just apparently like scamper's off but like you know gotcha but and he

Anyway, yeah, that's like another thing that the players and just American soccer culture had to deal with, you know. Well, so hopefully someday you can name that reporter and we can all have some, you know, ill will towards him or her, probably a him, I assume. I assume they've come around. I mean, he's gone on to cover the U.S. men's soccer team and everything else for quite some time. But, yeah, that's what they're dealing with. It's so bizarre. I don't know. I'd like, I scratch my head about it to this day.

Although I do remember, you know, I grew up reading the newspaper, reading the sports section all the time, especially pre-internet. And that was just the attitude of the day. It was just, oh, here's soccer coverage. What are they going to say about it? I think you use the phrase baseball-loving newspaper editors or people who think baseball was God's gift to humanity, who are sports editors and newspapers.

I mean, that is what? like sports editors at daily newspapers. I probably still are to some extent, but definitely were 10, 15 years ago. I mean, absolutely. You know, they were older and in, you know, in senior positions and soccer just missed them entirely.

Right, right. Let's see. John Harks. What an interesting cat. Like he's totally like he's really hard to reach now, right? Like he's never on, he's never on any podcasts. He's never like he's almost never interviewed. You got a hold of him.

You said he helped, it sounds like he helped you a lot. What's he doing now? What's he, what's going on in his life? I don't know. I haven't kept up with him. You know, last I knew. What was he doing when you talked to him? Oh, when I talked to him, he was, yeah, he was, he was a USL coach for that team.

Is it Charlotte? No, not Charlotte. Sorry. North Carolina somewhere. Forget offhand. Okay. North Carolina, courage, maybe? Yes, I believe so.

Oh, no. It's not my bad. And I think doing a good job at the time from what I recall. But yeah, he was, you know, he was fascinating. We talk, it's so interesting to me. You know, we talk and U.S.M and T family, like sort of torture ourselves over Christian Polisic and his just like total reluctance to embrace any of the trappings and the spoils and the luxuries of being the star in the face of the USM&T.

It's just so painful to watch. It's like it's like, you know, cringing through like a Tim Robinson skit, seeing him like, you know, sit through interviews and never mind that specially that Paramount made. which I still have PTSD from. But it's funny, you know, what a weird curse for like, for American soccer that like, you know, are, we have like the most reluctant of stars at this moment in time. And so you talk of like John Harks. And I think of this 1990 team and even teams after.

And it was full of guys who were like charismatic and magnetic. And, you know, they were honestly talented and good looking. and loved being in front of a camera, but no one wanted to put a camera in front of them, like, ever. So it just, it's tough. It's tough to see that. And, you know, Harks would have been perfect back then, had anyone, you know, wanted to interview him

and put him on late-night talk shows and et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, he was, like, he's one of the ones who actually can dance in the video. And he was, yes. Yeah, yeah. He was, and, and, And at lunchtime, he was always telling jokes. He was doing impressions.

He was the personality of the team for sure, until Eric Winalda came along. And then they would just have this almost like dueling piano routine every lunchtime and every practice, whether they were all doing these. And Eric is like an extremely funny guy. I know him a bit. And they just, they were kind of like the. big personalities on the team obviously the the the team was full of big personalities actually um that's that's one thing i know i'm like kind of meandering here but no no keep keep going i do want to point this out

because that is i think just such a huge difference between the teams of of yesteryear if i may say so and the current setup um i i sound like an old man shouting at clouds but this team this 1990 team and I'm sure one's after, were selected on the basis of having these big personalities. These guys who were not necessarily tough guys, although they certainly were. Watching those old Concaf games was absolutely eye-opening. I mean, it was, they were street fights and blood sports. It was incredible. Even World Cup games from 1990, I mean, the tackles are, it's a different level of

what's allowed on the field for sure. It really is. It's not like, you know, when you watch soccer these days and you see a foul from the main camera, camera one, and you think, oh, what happened? And then you see a close up, you're like, oh, that looks painful. You know, when you see it in real time in like the 1990 World Cup, as you mentioned, you're like, I mean, even a low-deaf feed from the main camera and go like, oh, my God, that that's painful.

Yeah. And there's not even a foul call, not alone a yellow card. Yeah. Oh, it's astonishing. There was a, there was a third game, the U.S.'s third game in the 1990 World Cup. I'm jumping around here. I hope we have time for this. It was against Austria.

Now, the U.S., I hope I'm not like spoiling your, you know, lead in or whatever. No, no, no, no, don't worry about it. Don't worry about me. But the, okay, so tough group they're in. Chuck's a Valkia. Italy, Austria. Austria had come in with kind of high hopes to the tournament. They weren't a great team, but they had been putting up baseball scores in the run-up to the World Cup.

But I think they'd lost their first two games, if I recall correctly. And unfortunately, the U.S. did too. And so these two teams were going into the third game, both of which had this extremely slim, like ridiculous parlay of a chance of qualifying. And the U.S. was kind of frustrated, but also kind of like, let's see what we can do in this third game. The place they were staying in was absolutely awful, so they're kind of playing angry. Austria was playing angry, too. And it was like the weirdest World Cup match you can imagine where these two teams just wanted to take each other's heads off.

Peter, for me, he's almost got like his leg snapped in half from this ridiculous tackle in like the 30-something minute. But, I mean, even before that, like from the whistle, there were like forearms and elbows flying. It was,

I'd seen a bunch of Kong kakaf games and have since then, but I'd never seen a game like this. I mean, it was hardly soccer at all, even though there were some good goals, actually. But, yeah, different game entirely back then. Yeah, it really was.

We recap the, you know, we did like a historic recap of the 5-1 loss to Czechoslovakia back in the run-up to the 2022 World Cup. So I remember Skoravi's, you know, incredible hair and just dominance on the field. But, you know, Caligari scored a nice goal in that game. Was that the first one? Was the Czechoslovakia won the first one we played? That's right. Yeah, they were down 3-0 when it happened and down to 10-10.

Yeah, it was a, you know, it was, we weren't going to win the game, but it was at least, at least we put together a nice attacking sequence, scored a goal at the World Cup. I feel like that meant a lot. It was, and I don't know if you went into this, but like the first 15 minutes, the U.S. looked really good in that game. Yeah, better, yeah. They did, and, you know, in hindsight,

you could see Chuck Las Valkia was just sort of like eyeing the U.S. kind of like taking their measure of them because 15 to 20 minutes in, they really turned it on and like found a second gear. But that goal is great. And there was a moment in the game easily overlooked.

I don't know if you mentioned this. I'd love to go back and listen to that now, honestly, because I find that game really fascinating. You mentioned Thomas Scorabi. It was early in the second half. He's dribbling along the sideline. I'm talking like 35 yards out at least, maybe 40. And Tony's off his line.

You know, they've been pinging in these crosses, like all afternoon. Pinpoint crosses, the likes of which the U.S. had probably never seen before. Scravi sees Tony off his line, like trying to cheat a little bit. And so he decides to go for a goal. And I'm talking he's like on the sideline, 35 yards out. And he just takes a swing at it. And again, even on these old feeds, low definition, I've never seen a shot like this. It's like something Ibrahimovic would do, but like even more powerful.

This thing like keeps lifting and keeps accelerating as it's going towards goal. And he's trying to beat Tony at his near post. And Tony has to like spring back. And he was, I mean, he could do that very well back then. And he just barely catches it, knocks it out of bounds for a corner. and that's when he gets his bell rung. He hits his near post with his head. And Chuck Zavaki goes on to score.

That was their third goal, I believe, right after that. And, I mean, I think he's, like, still in the days from there. I'm not pointing any fingers or anything. But anyway, I bring this up to say that that team was good, and Scoravi was a player I've, like, I've never seen before. I mean, I'd never seen. It wasn't a goal, but, like, that sticks out to me as just this, like, superhuman.

You talk about what soccer players were like, you know, back then and compare him to now. And I've just never seen anything like that in my life. Yeah. You look like kind of like a GI Joe running around out there. Like didn't lead it. You know, you say in the book that Hugo Perez sort of faintly looks like Diego Maradonna from behind, which I'm glad you said because I feel like I've thought that

before, especially back in the day. But that's not what Scoravi. looks like, man. He looks like a commando. Oh, absolutely. And those guys, you know, I go over to this book, but I think what certainly the coaching staff couldn't have imagined is those guys were playing for more than like national pride. They were playing for national pride in a way because the country was, they held their first free elections like, I want to say like two days before the match. And like 98% of the country came out and voted. I mean, they were on the verge of, like, voting out the

communists. People have been marching the streets. The players, on the other hand, were playing for much richer paydays, and where better to have the World Cup than Italy, which was, you know, Syria was the richest league and the most glamorous league in the world at the time. So these guys, Scoravi especially, were putting on the show. In fact, after the World Cup, he never even returned to Italy. He went on to sign for, ooh, Genoa, I think. He never returned to Czechoslovakia, you mean? Yeah. Yeah.

Just stayed in Italy, signed to the team, as far as I learned, I think. And went on to have a great career there. So, you know, the U.S. was playing for their careers in one sense, but the Czechoslovakians were playing for theirs in quite another sense, too. Yeah. You're right. Played for Genoa 1990 to 1995, scored 59 goals for them. It was probably a pretty good signing.

Indeed. I'll put the link to the book in the show notes. I really enjoyed it. I appreciate that. I really do. It was a story that, you know, you're a writer. Sometimes you just like, you get bitten by the bug, and you just feel like this story has got to be told at all costs.

And there were a lot of circumstances, like, around the book. my mom had just passed away and I'm a freelancer or had been for a few years and still I'm and I'd like just lost my main source of income and this book was like due pretty fast and it was just like it was the greatest thing to just be able to sit down and like write this thing out you know I'd been my agent and I had been pitching it for I don't know a couple years and which is to say like I just I knew the story inside and out, and I loved it. And I just, like, couldn't wait to just sit down and write it. And it was the greatest thing that could have happened to me at that point.

That's awesome. Yeah. It comes through that you enjoyed writing it. Appreciate it. So what do you think is going to be the impact of the World Cup this year? I mean, we are both. We're mutually more. the fact that there is no qualifying campaign in the future.

But this World Cup on home soil, what's it going to do for the sport? For the sport of soccer in this country or for the U.S. men's national team? A, then B, let's do for the first one, the sport in this country. Yeah. It's interesting. I remember what 1994, the effect it had for me. I watched literally every game. and I remember just like whatever like a 14 or 15 year old like had going on at the time I cleared my calendar for it

and it was so amazing especially at a time when you didn't have once soccer wasn't easy to find on television you know ESPN was showing the Champions League and you could catch Premier League games like on a on a tape delay on like a Monday or Tuesday evening. I can't remember. I used to watch that, like stay up late and watch that, which was so fun. But I say all this because,

and, you know, I've read subsequently, like, people around my age, they had that effect, too. It, like, turned them into a soccer fan for life. And so maybe it'll do that for adults and people more of our generation. But I bring it up because I think it'll have the biggest impact

on younger generations. They'll see all the soccer. And not that it has, not that it like completely matters that it's in our country, but it does matter to know that it's taking place in our country and to see, you know, our own fans do it, just to see our country host a tournament. There's something so special about it, even though this seems like such a troubled world cup for so many reasons, from, you know, ticket pricing to, the guy running it at FIFA

to you know the sort of bloating of it with so many teams and probably a lot of teams playing for draws in the first round and whatnot even with all that there's just such this like I hate to sound trite but there is

like a certain magic when the World Cup kicks off and all that stuff I mean you can't make high ticket prices go away but people it'll sort of fade into the background rightly or wrongly. It totally will. You're right.

And, okay. And it's just, it's going to, it's going to feel special. It's going to seem like, you know, like it always does, where the world's having a party and everyone's invited. And that is just so intoxicating for like a kid, for an adolescent, for a teenager. I think it's, I think it's a great thing. And it'll turn on, hopefully. This generation and subsequent generations are so much more plugged into soccer,

so much more plugged into soccer than mine was. I mean, it still blows my mind to go to my kids' school and see kids wearing soccer jerseys. Like, that never would have happened. Yeah. But anyway, I think it will have that effect, which is great. You know, obviously the 94 World Cup gave us Major League Soccer. That was the carrot dangled. that was the promise.

That was like the contingency. But nonetheless, you know, we ended up with enough money to launch it at least for a few years until it started flatlining in the early 2000s. But then, which of course was sort of, which I got to say was, in my opinion, one of the sort of buyers lit under the team for the success of the 2002 World Cup, which we could obviously go into now or another time. But team-wise, it's so hard to say. Yeah, I don't, I retract that part of the question.

Yeah, I was mostly just interested in the sport in this country. Because, I mean, I'll just tell you, I think I was also going to ask you what you thought of Matt Crocker leaving. If you have anything burning a hole in your pocket, I'm happy to hear it. But basically, it feels to me like administrative decisions are not what is going. going to make America good at soccer, you know, or at least on the men's side, obviously the women are extremely successful. But we're not going to win a men's World Cup because of something Matt Crocker decided or didn't decide and or his predecessor or his successor.

It is culture. It is the kids who are going to watch this World Cup this summer and grow up loving soccer and teaching their kids to play soccer. Because until we have that sort of. generational thing going on. I mean, it's not, we're not, our best player is going to be worse than a player for France who didn't even make the World Cup squad, you know? Yeah.

It's a little bit of an exaggeration, but it's not that far off. Yeah. I agree. I agree. It's, and especially at this point, from now to the World Cup, I'm not quite sure what his empty office, what kind of effect that will have on things, honestly. He kind of laid the groundwork and made all his moves already. No, I don't have any big thoughts on it.

I just hope someone better comes in and fills the role. From my limited experience, you know, it just seems like it makes such a difference when the person coming in not only has the passion, but they sort of actually understand a little bit about American. soccer culture already rather than coming in and just kind of like, you know, shitting all over it, to be honest. The players, especially like in the 80s and 90s, talked a lot about how the American coaches they had, they understood the American player.

And that made a difference. And, you know, they didn't say this themselves, but I can sort of understand where they're coming from, where, you know, your, you're, you're, you're, you're, You're fighting so hard to, like, try out for this club in Europe, and you're earning a spot, and you're obviously always trying to overcome the fact that you're American, working twice as hard as everyone else. You're busting your ass over there. So it's time to fly back for the U.S. men's national team, and only to come back to, you know, this European coach who just thinks you guys suck, you know, and doesn't have any appreciation for who you are and what you go through or anything.

And talking to players, that actually makes a big difference for them. And nothing against, I don't say this with regard specifically to poach, but I think that matters. You know, we saw a Klinsman's regard for American soccer leagues and American soccer players. And he'd even lived in this country for, you know, since, I think since the 90s or something. I mean, Klinz was basically American now, you know. Yes. Exactly. So I don't know.

whoever takes Crocker's place, it can be anyone. And I show up they do a better job. Yeah. I mean, like you said before we started recording, I think. He hired Potch. He hired Emma Hayes. Hayes has been a great hire. Potch.

You know, Potch will be graded on exactly one test, and that is coming up in June. But anyway, hey, let's get you, come back sometime and let's talk some more about some of this stuff. I mean, there's a lot more to cover, obviously. I'd be happy to. Let's call it a day for today. Thank you so much, Adam. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me.

It's been a real pleasure. I love talking to this stuff, maybe talking about this stuff, maybe too much. No, no. Not too much. I appreciate the chance, too. Thank you so much. Thanks, everybody for listening. We'll see you.