Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - #684: Chatting youth soccer with the head of Gladbach's international academy

Episode Date: April 22, 2026

Vince and Belz sat down with Wolfgang Heilmann, who oversees Borussia Monchengladbach's "international academy," in the hours before Gladbach drew 1-1 with Mainz on Sunday (we saw a Scally goal). Most of the conversation is about youth development in general: how Gladbach's U9 team plays small-sided games on the weekends vs other clubs, why academy players are expected to be humble, and much more. Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Scuff Podcast where we talk about U.S. soccer. Today we're at Borussia Park in the western part of Germany, about to witness a G.O. Raina Masterclass? Surely. And we're sitting down with Wolfgang Heilman? That's correct. Great. Great spelling. Head of the international Borussia-Munchenglaiqq Academy. Wolfgang, thanks for having us.

Thanks for having me. I'm very honored. So first of all, what is the international academy? Can you kind of explain it? Because it's not the academy here. No, there's some, there's a difference, right? So the academy here, maybe let me explain that first, in a couple of words, is really elite, right? So we have in each year, or each age group, in each year we have one team only. So we start with U9, and we have 12 players there, and that's it.

So these are already the best players of the region, or should be. Right? So it goes up to U-19 and even the U-23, which is a man's team, but they are playing in the fourth league, but professional, right? So they are kind of an academy team, I would say, right? So of a youth team. And then it's the first team, right? So that's the academy here, not the first team, but all the youth teams.

Can I jump in and ask them? Yes. So the U-9s. Yes. Where are they chosen? Who chooses them? Where do they come from? Oh, we have scouts.

We have partner clubs. So they are usually, when they're eight years old, right, they come from the region here. So, right? So nobody's actually coming more than, I would say, 30, 40, 50 kilometers away from here in that age group. Right. So we have scouts. We are doing one or two events here to like showcases or something like that, right, to find them. But usually, and we have partners.

and they are telling us. So there's a good kid, look at them, and stuff like that, right? So when they become older, usually some of them change, because they're not good enough, other goods come in, right? And then we start scouting also in other regions of Germany, when they're 14, 15, and stuff like that. So we have, for example, we have a boarding house here, and where 24 players can stay in all week, right?

So they stay in there, train, go to schools. We have four partner schools here, where they go into school. They're just sleeping here. We have a family who cares about them. But they are from Germany, or when they are 16, we can take players from anywhere in Europe, right? But not outside Europe.

So for example, Joe, Joe Scali, he came to us when he was at the day, when he turned 18. We found him in the US, we scouted him. I don't know who it was, to be honest, but somebody of our scouting crew scouted him. And now we are totally happy because he had such a great development. First of all, he was in the second team, in the U-23s.

And I think after half a year, it was already a regular of the first team. And now he's been playing for six, seven years here. Very long. time. Yeah. So how what was that process like with Joe just because of the fact that Joe was such a surprise because you all plucked him out of MLS. He wasn't playing an MLS. He was famously sitting behind. I think Anton Tenor Home at New York, New York City FC. And then, you know, like you just said, in half a year, he's a first team regular and he's held down that spot for a long time. So what do

you think why? Why was that the case? Good question. I don't know what exactly saw our scouts and him then at that age, but he was, as far as I can remember, he was already playing as a 16 and 17-year-old from time to time for New York City.

Yeah, yeah. And so this is always a good sign, right? When a player is so young and he always plays for the first team, then this is actually, he must have quality, right? And I don't know, the exact thing, why we got him or why we took him so early.

But this is actually our philosophy. We got to find players as early as we can. And as early, we can take them, as I said, they are from the US only when they are 18. But we have to see them earlier. Because we are, yeah, one of the biggest clubs in Germany. I mean, in terms of membership, for example, we are number five.

We are in the history, in the table of the Bundesliga. we are number five or six so we have a big stadium with 50,000 but we are not the club actually who is able to pay for transfer fees or even the salaries for players who are really big big right

so and so we have invented that philosophy 50 years ago like we call it the foals philosophy foals for young horses when we had a team who was really, really, really good. So they won five championships from

70 to 77. We won five times, like more than Bayern Munich, with a homegrown team and young players, right? But then already it started that we lost our best players to the bigger teams like most of the time by in Munich. But we kept on

with our philosophy, like developing own players or get them in very young, right? So that's why we got him, fortunately. So did the Foll's nickname come from? from that team in the 70s and from the style of playing because they were very

we call it untamed right so we were very fast and creative and whatever right and playing up front so with a different speed for that time right and somebody said I think it was a journalist and they're playing like young horses like foals right and then

the name was born and then we developed our false philosophy out of that that was later on the marketing thing of course but it's a true story and it's great it's great for us and says actually everything about the club and you were sorry for sorry for me being so no i interrupted you yeah please no you were asking about the international yeah what is the international academy yeah the academy internationally is we try to transfer or transport our false philosophy into the world right so for example in

the u.s we have a partner club in Chicago. It's called Schwabben. They have a hundred years anniversary. If they listen to that, congratulations. By the way, I'll be there in June. And I'm already looking forward to that, to that. Nothing like Chicago in June. What a great. It's hard, right? It's hot, but it's nice because the breeze off the lake and Chicago. We're big Chicago fans. All right. The city of Chicago. Yeah. So you have partner clubs such as this one. in Chicago. Yes, but we the good thing is now we have a partnership

with them. This is not, and we're doing a camp there in June, right? But this is not about a camp. It's about being there, talking to their coaches, well, how do you train? How do we train? And getting an exchange, getting the best exchange we can. We also have a platform

now, a website where they can take our exercises, right, what we do with our kids here. And so we have built that, the International Academy. of course we are talking or we are very bound to our academy here to our local academy so we try to do as close to that what they are doing but usually I mean to be honest the teams

of Schwaben are not as good as our teams right because grassroots football right they have good players but you cannot do all the stuff we are doing at the same age group here with our international partners, right? So you have to downsize a bit, I would say, right? Totally makes sense. Can you give one example of that? Something that they can do here that you couldn't do with like one of your partner class. I would say our players here, when we are training with them here, right? When they're starting with us with eight, they're already quite good, right? But now then we can do like, in that age group, we focus still on the technical stuff,

on the individual tactics like playing one way one or whatever, right? we go quickly to other tactical things, right? Like team tactics or small group tactics. And with a I would say the normal kids who are maybe not that super talents, you have to

care a bit more about techniques longer, right? Individual tactics, how do I behave as a defender? In a one we want and stuff like that, right? So that's one of the things. And so you've got to adapt the training. And we always

call it like development appropriate training, right? So this is very important for kids, right? And, and I'm sorry. It's fine, but we talk a lot on this part about the cultural aspect of how, of how that affects soccer development, specifically we're looking through the lens of how we can produce better American soccer players. So what you're saying is the kids in Germany, by the time you get them at U-9, mostly already have the technical aspect down?

Yeah, they have good, usually. That's the one that you pick. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, but this is not the normal kid, I would say, the normal soccer kid, right? Because this is one of the best youth academies you can get here, right? And you have talents, but some of them also drop out afterwards because they are technically skilled, but they don't have the vision or whatever, right? What you need when you're older, or maybe the body or whatever, right?

If it was the body, I would be a bit cautious because sometimes when they grow older, they get different physics, right, and then it's better to keep them longer, right? But this is one aspect. But, yeah, as for the American kids, development appropriate, I was mentioning, right? I was, like, last year I was in St. Louis, and I was watching a tournament there for kids.

They were maybe eight or nine years old, and they were playing... As an example, a 9v9 on half of the field, right? On half of the field? And it was a tournament. There were maybe like 50 teams playing. So what happened? The players were just too small for that field, right?

So the ball was in the corner, everybody was there, right? And, I mean, they cannot play that long passes. They don't have the view of the field, right? Because it's not in their brain then, right? It's totally not development in their brain. I would say I was not talking to anybody, but I was just watching because I was there. My son is playing in the US. Wait, wait, where does your son play?

In the university now. Of St. Louis? He used to be in St. Louis. Now he's in Hofstra. Okay. Herbert, right? He's in New York. He just changed.

But then he was in St. Louis and I was actually watching a game of him, but then I saw kids playing, which is actually my passion, right, to the youth development. right and I saw oh I'm gonna watch that and I mean they played like we played here I would say 10 years ago right so on way too big fields with big goals and 9 v9 so nine players were playing eight players were standing outside right and parents were cheering because it was very important to win the game and I was this is not this is nothing this is not in my opinion this is not good for kids right kids should have fun, kids should have a lot of touches, they should have a lot of one-we-one situations, they should do a lot of decisions during the game, and they should play all the time, right? A lot of shots on the goal. And if you play a tournament like this, then maybe your team goes to a round robin with three games, right?

Coach, of course, wants to get to the next round, always picks the same players, and some kids may play in three games, ten minutes or so. But I would suggest what we are doing here now is like use half of the field and make four fields on it, right? Play three we three, four we four we four, five we five like development appropriate. With small goals also like put two goals on each side, right? That's what we are doing. We are not getting rid of the big goals though. We are usually when we play tournaments here during at the weekend, right? We play with three teams in one age group. So maybe. Yeah, 15 players or so. So we play three teams of five players, and we play against three other clubs. They do the same, right? And then we are playing 10 minutes games all the way around. Then they play one game on small goals, one game on big goals.

Okay. Something like that. And the older they get, the bigger the fields get. And the more players you have on field, because the brain is also growing, right? And they can do different things with their shots, with their body, with their brain. And then when I see that, and then I say, no wonder, hey, man, they can run. The American kids, they are always very strong. So up to the age of 12, 13, 14, 15 even, sometimes they are dominating us, right, because they're physically very strong.

But afterwards, something changes. Maybe their education, their soccer-specific education was maybe. I don't know, different. I wouldn't say good enough, but it was different. I mean, we can say it was not good enough. Yeah. But everything changes, and I see what happens in the US. I mean, I started to doing that seven, eight years ago,

and a lot of things happening at the moment. And I'm really glad about that, right? Because football is growing now with the World Cup. And so everybody's interested. And, I mean, it's not that I'm going to tell you some things here, But it's not that I'm going to the essence and saying, I know everything. No, I watch what they are doing. And I try to find the best mixture, the best adaption, right?

I tell them what I think. They didn't tell me what me. Maybe they have good ideas too. For sure they will have, right? So you always got to be open because this game is always changing. If you look at it, what we played 10 years ago, what we play now, it's totally different. right and so you always

this is yeah and therefore I love you football because you can see such a lot of progression in such a short time I love the two goals on each end because that does make them make decisions you know

and they see that the field is not only deep yeah it is right very early maybe there's another play on the other side probably they were only dribbling right right or they can say I'm going this way it's covered

oh I can go this way. Yeah, yeah, great. But I keep diverting you from the question I asked, which is explain what the international... So yeah, yeah. So let's get that. Yeah, sorry for that. No, that's not your fault. So yeah. You have partner clubs. We have partner clubs. We have own academies, I would say, right? We have partners, for example, in Indonesia, in Singapore, in China, now in Japan. No, not in Japan. We don't have a Burussia-Munching-Gladbach Academy. We have also partner schools and clubs now. But in Indonesia, we call it Bruce and Michigladbach Academy.

So we have a partner there who is running the academy all year round, and we have coaches there. So sometimes we put a coach there to see what is happening. But we are actually, yeah, we are on their side for the whole year, right? So they have teams, they play in tournaments, stuff like that, right? and we started that six years ago in Singapore with a German a German lad who was actually very experiences now over 60 now

but he has a lot of experience he came from Germany and he did all the things for us on ground right so he educated coaches also his own coaches and so this is actually the model we're doing we as I said we're trying to transport or transfer our false philosophy in the best possible way we can and in the honest way we can because we see so many other clubs there just doing camps or selling licenses or

whatever I don't name anybody but this is not the stuff we would like to do this is and we cannot afford this because I mean to be honest when I go to Indonesia right and I say I'm from Barusia then people say oh Barusia Dortmund yeah no no the other one Yeah, because they don't call it Borussia, the Dorman, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. BVB, yeah, but so usually, and they are, to be honest,

they are more successful than us with the first team, so they're more famous, right? And so our chance is to deliver an honest approach to youth education, to partners who want to do that together with us in the world. And that's the key of developing our brand. So this is actually the international strategy we have. We use our image, which we have in Germany, because everybody knows, oh, the foals, right?

Everybody knows that. But I cannot go to the US and say, we are the false because nobody knows who we are then. So I need to call the baby Borisimich in Gladbach Academy, but the input is the same. So that's the difference between international and ELED Academy here. here. So it's more maybe, I would say, focused on grassroots, but we also have some now

in Singapore, we have some good teams already. But it's not about going abroad and finding the next Joe Scali. It's about, first of all, it's a marketing thing, but we want to do marketing with an honest approach, with helping our partners, working together with our partners in the way of a good youth development, youth education, and sometimes maybe we find a talent, right? For example, in Switzerland

we have seen some good players, we have some Swiss guys here, right, and the first good player we saw in Switzerland is now playing in the first league in Switzerland, because we have told a Swiss club, have a look at this guy, right, because he wasn't allowed to come to us

then, he was 11. And now he's playing in the Super League in Switzerland. It's great. It's great also for us. We love that. Is there revenue potential in all this for you guys? Yes, of course, because, I mean, it's bound to travel.

It's bound to coaches because all the things we are doing, again, the honest approach we're doing with our own coaches from here. So the International Academy has own coaches, right? And so we are sending these coaches to camps, to workshops, coaching workshops. to team trainings, to our academies, to our partner clubs. And of course, this costs a bit of money, and there's a revenue potential. Then our partners pay money for that. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to do that.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, it's not big revenue, because compared to, I mean, we have a turnover of 100 million euros here, right? And compared to that, it's like, really, right, nothing. But it's a great thing. The brand, your explanation of the brand play in does make a lot of sense. Sorry, I forgot one thing. We also have an international integrated academy team here. Have you heard about that?

We call it the U-18 integrated academy team. Most of the guys are from the U.S., also some Canadians. So we have 20 players here, 20 guys, between 15 and 18. I must say they pay. We have one scholarship player, but usually they pay for the program. I see. They live here just beside the training ground. And they're doing homeschooling.

And they have our, their head coach is our last year's U-17 assistant coach. He became German champions with our U-17, and then he was transferred to the international team, and he's now the head coach of them. And the second coach is an American coach. And they have a physiotherapist here, and they train twice a day. They're actually training light like our academy teams. And they play, who do they play again?

They play friendly matches because we are not allowed to register them because of the FIFA rule, right? Otherwise, we would get in trouble. So we cannot register them. So we do usually once or twice a week. We do friendlies against local teams. Normally they play against, I would say, second tier U-19 teams. They are older, but not as good as the U-19 Bundesliga teams, right?

Or they play other Bundesliga teams like Düsseldorf or our U-17, U-S-16, so the level, I mean, level appropriate, right? And they have made a great development. We're doing that now for the first year, and so we are... So they started in the fall? In August, they started. And so now they're...

just going to the end of the first season. So these players, what do they hope to, what do they hope happens as a result? They know that they're probably unlikely to break into the academy, right? As football or soccer is so big in Germany, right? So we have so many clubs, and so we have so many levels, right?

So to the fourth level, you are professional, right? We have some fifth level teams who are spread all around the country. So we have not only one fifth league. We have, for example, we have five fourth level leagues, right? They're all professional. So some of them, I would say the good ones, they're hoping that they maybe get into a professional team once they turn 18. At least, I would say, if they play one or two years here,

they can get a great scholarship in the US. Sure. Yeah. With the university team, some of them might help for that. So this is the reason. How much is it cost? Can you tell us? To be honest, I cannot tell you because we have a partner in the US who is actually scouting together the players for us. And he's contracting the players, right?

Because this is the US contract. We are, of course, we are getting money from the partner for what we are doing here for them because we have costs here too, right? Of course. It costs a bit. So also this is a bit of a revenue for us. but again it's all in the wake of youth development and building the brand

because this also helps us to build the brand in the US even though it's happening here and yeah great for the guys, great for us whose idea was it to have this strategy on brand your idea or somebody else's idea and they said well he would be perfect I mean it was a sorry

it was an idea of a couple of people together When I started here in 2015, there was no international strategy in place, right? And as we didn't win anything or haven't won anything for then already for 20 years, right, our last German title, the Cup, was in 1995. So we said, okay, what are we actually and how can we actually? how can we be more popular in the world, right? Even if nobody knows us in Asia or not even the not soccer interested people in the US, right? So, and that was it.

And then we said, okay, we are the fools, right? I mean, this is the thing we can do best and we have done since 50 years now. And why shouldn't we go into the world and take that as our image, right, as our USP? Yeah. So it was not only my idea. couple of guys were working on that. We better get back to our group here pretty soon, but a couple more questions.

You want to ask about the whole camera? Yeah, okay. So maybe I can set it up with this. You must spend some time with the academy here, right? I mean, at least you're watching it, yeah. We have a sense, I'll start it when you can sort of finish out the question. But we have a sense of like what the academy player, what is culturally sort of acceptable for an academy player to how they are to act. You know?

Yeah. And I wonder, I mean, Vince has a more specific question about that, but I wonder if you could just talk generally about that. Like when an academy player gets a chance, Academy player, one of these young kids gets a chance to practice with the first team. Yes. What's his attitude supposed to? Okay. I can only tell you my opinion in that. I mean, you were in an academy at one point, right?

Yes, I mean, yeah, but when I was playing football, I mean, I'm 57 now, right? It's a long time ago. And the football landscape was totally different. So there were not even academies existing in Germany, right? Even the big clubs were playing in normal leagues against other clubs, right? So I don't have any experience in being an academy player, even though I played for a good club, but it was like in the highest level,

but it was a regional league then, right? So I cannot tell you. But in my opinion, I mean, we have a, in our academy, of part of the false philosophy is not only the soccer and the school education, it's also we have a set of values, right? So like, also part of the club is being not like

other clubs who say, okay, we are number one and nobody else and stuff like that. we are actually quite, or we call ourselves quite humble because we are not the biggest city here and we're not the biggest club and we have to be with ourselves and stay humble, right? So that's what we try to teach our players, even though they are special kids, right? Because they are really treated like maybe future professionals because they have the best treatment you can get here, right? Of course they are sacrificing a lot because they are trying.

training and going to school and that's it more or less right because they don't have much more time but they are very they are special right so their life is always very say and they feel it because they're going together in the school with other kids right and they're like always saying oh hey is it football player right and yeah I know what it's like there right because I have two sons and I know what it's like when they are together with another kid who's playing in an academy so it's like, well, he's special, right? So we got to keep them calm and down a bit, right? So, and they have, so respect is another, another word,

which is very important for us, right? Respect your teammates, respect your opponent, respect your other kids in the school because they are like you are, right? Just because you can play football, you're not actually not a better kid than they are, right? And this is very important for us. to make them good members of the society, I would say.

So we have a set of values which you can teach with football, like being a team player, being humble, as I said, being respectful, being open, right? But also, on the other hand, being determined. If you want to get to something, if you want to reach something. It's a tough balance, right? It's a tough balance, right? It's very tough, it is, it is. So it's not easy, being a team player, but being determined.

and get to your goal, right? Right. But football is a team sport, and nobody, not even messy, can decide a game if he plays one against the 11, right? So we have a set of values, and so we are

hoping, or, yeah, we are really having an eye on that, that our players behave like that, and that's when I go to, for example, a camp or team training abroad to the US or so, I try to tell that, how you should behave, in my opinion, on the field.

Because there are always some situations where you can get in and say, hey, do you think this was right? Or maybe you could have done better, right? So we call that guided learning. It's, yeah, like inductive, inductive, inductive, inductive, inductive coaching. So don't tell them what to do, ask them. Yeah.

Right? So that they get the solution of themselves, right? And this is what sticks in their mind, right? This is, yeah. And as opposed to just another order from the coach. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so also we as coach, we want to be open to our players. So if a player has a different opinion, yeah, listen to him.

Yeah, maybe it helps you also, right? So it's not like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you got to do that. And that is an open thing, right? An open mind and you are a role model as a coach. And so we have a set of values. But once, if you asked the question when a young player is allowed to play with the first team for the first time, yeah, he should go for it. So, of course, you've got to have to respect these guys because they're Bundesliga players, right?

And they have maybe a bit of more experience, right? And they know maybe a bit more than you know when you're 16 or 17. But in the end, yeah, when you're on the field, you're a football player too. And you need to show yourself. So be brave. brave also very good example right be always be brave and everybody makes mistakes and sometimes a mistake in one situation is right in the next situation right and so we try to encourage them always to be brave so he should go for it when he comes or she to to the first team and do it take your chance

okay okay so so that's on the field yeah right my specific question comes from a situation here in Germany. I'm not going to name the player nor the club where this happens. And even the reporting on this might is a little dubious. You know, so these are all unsubstantiated rumors. But I do want to ask because it was reported that the specific player rubbed the club the wrong way because he, while he was an academy player, he drove to training in an expensive car. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, he just dropped your head. Okay, okay. He drove to training in expensive car when he got caught up to first team, I think either preseason or midseason camp. Yeah.

Traveled with a luxury handbag and these things were reported as if they are negative things. And this is a cultural thing that I think is kind of lost upon me and Adam. You know, when we try to talk about it, I think we can kind of understand what the rub may be, but I guess I would like to know, understand from you like what is the culture. you talked about humility for instance like is all that involved in the humility as well it should be yeah yeah yeah of course of course I wouldn't say that that it's not happening here

that somebody comes with a I don't know $200 Gucci bag I don't know what these things cost because I'm totally not interested in that here but I would say if there's if somebody's showing off like that right the coach is going to talk to him and we of course they and some of these young kids

they have agents right you've got to talk to their agents and say hey come on this is not good for your for your kid right because he will the others they maybe will envy him and ask him hey what do you actually earn here right

and so it's not good for anybody it's not good for the team but this is part of the things we try to tell them and try to teach them but as I said I mean, there are so many things going on through social media and where they see things, oh, I want to have that and stuff like that.

And I've got to be told, you cannot control everything, right? But usually the humble players with determination who are concentrating on football and don't give a... You can swear on our... Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? I used to try to stop it, but I gave up. Yeah, okay.

All right. I try to avoid it. Anyway, anyway, and they, so usually they have the better chance to do it. To succeed longer. To succeed in the end. I wouldn't say that there are some other examples, right?

If there's a very talented player, right, who's like, when he turns 18, trying to, or likes to have a faster car than the others, and he's so talented, yeah, he's going to make it, maybe. But usually on the field they are so determined then, right? Because they know it there. But yeah, I feel more comfortable

with, or we feel more comfortable as a club, with humble guys who are living a normal, or try to live a normal life when they are young. I mean, they can do things when they do it later. You see so many examples of players here, they spend so

much money and they have not here, right? So the younger players now are different from again 10, 15 years ago, right? Because they have better agents, they have maybe better clubs, they tell them, because the clubs are more experienced, the agents are more experienced. And so it's not happening a lot anymore

that an 18-year-old players comes with a Ferrari to the training here. Not here anyway, but I wouldn't say that it's not happening anywhere else. I don't know. I've seen so many players. Yeah, but yeah. We all three of us got a game to get to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, thank you, both can.

We really appreciate it. Again, thanks for having me. Yeah, it's interesting to hear about what you guys are doing. Yeah, right. Yeah, and I wish we had more time to talk, but we don't. So thank you. Yeah, I'm really sad because, yeah, as I said, we're doing best as we can to transport that thing,

and hopefully we can have. have more partners in the U.S. We already have a couple, but... So you're looking for more. Yes, of course. We are, yeah. So we are, we have some ideas how to... Maybe you could slide me some training exercise just on the side.

Yeah. Why not? Why not? Are you a coach? Yeah, I coach little kids, yeah. All right, great. Yeah. Eight, yeah.

Oh, yeah, if you want, I can... I would love it. Yeah, let's talk about it. But thanks for listening. We'll see.