Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - Episode 107: A primer on some of U.S. Soccer’s dysfunction, including its problem with Latinos, from Mike Woitalla

Episode Date: October 29, 2019

Mike Woitalla, the executive editor of Soccer America, who broke the story about the Youth Soccer Diversity Task Force that includes almost zero people of Latino descent, joins the podcast. He discusses the “mind-boggling” omission on the diversity task force (still not rectified as far as we know), the purge that’s occurred in the men’s youth national team coaching ranks (including Tab Ramos’s exit to take the Dynamo job), and the lack of grassroots American soccer expertise at Soccer House. Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the scuffed podcast. I'm Adam Bells in Minneapolis. With me is Greg Velasquez in Des Moines. We talk about U.S. men's soccer. Our guest today is Mike Woytala, the executive editor of Soccer America, and in my opinion, the journalist responsible for the most substantive work on issues of particular significance to me as a follower of U.S. soccer. His interviews are must-read stuff. He broke the story about the youth soccer diversity task force that included almost zero people of Latino descent. He's been closer to the Hugo Perez situation than most people. He's doggedly highlighted the youth national team coaching vacancy crisis, and he just came out with another great interview. This one with John Hackworth, the former USU17 coach. You should check it out on soccer america.com and subscribe.

They're doing incredible work and have been for longer than anybody else. Mike, thanks for coming on the podcast. Oh, thank you for having me. And thank you very much for that very nice intro. It's a pleasure to be here. Let's start with the news of the day. Sergenio Dest, as we all know, announced he's going to play for the USA. Iax actually announced it for him.

This was a big, as everyone knows, kind of a big question in the air. What's your reaction to that? Yeah, obviously good news for the U.S. national team program. I think I would have predicted that he would lean toward the U.S. You know, the other factor would have been. I'm sure he feels more Dutch than American and that he grew up wanting to play on the Netherlands national team. But I think there's a couple things. One is I think he'll know he'll be very confident of being a starter, getting a lot of playing time.

He plays for the U.S., you know, the way that the Netherlands produces players. You don't know how many competitors he's going to have in the next few years. And I do believe a person like Sergenia would there be a matter of loyalty as well because the U.S. national team program gave him a chance. He played in the U-17 World Cup and the U-20 World Cup, and then I'm sure he's built relationships. So it sounds like a good decision for him and a good one to happen to the U.S. national team program. Yeah, some much-needed good news these days. Speaking of bad news, I don't know if you got a chance to watch it.

I know you're on the road, but the U-17s lost to Senegal last night. Yeah, any sort of big-picture thoughts? Yeah, so I mean, okay, these are young players, right? So we don't know what's going to happen when they play Japan or the Netherlands. Who knows they could come back in this. Right. I think the one thing we're looking at while we're watching this is that it happens in the shadow of the U.S. Soccer Federation dismantling its youth national team program.

You know, the U.S. national team program, the U.S. soccer was actually famous worldwide for the way it prepared its U.17 teams. Only Brazil has gone to as many 17 World Cups as the U.S. You know, up until this cycle, they had a residency for the U-17s. Their schedule to prepare was equaled or exceeded probably all the teams that would go to one of these. The U.S. soccer didn't give these kids their coaching staff until last March. They had a number of people on staff that would have done a perfectly good job, like Dave Vandenberg and Sean Sakeris, who had been working with the team for a long time.

Shakeras had actually been to the last U-17 World Cup because under Tabramus, the Federation had a system where the assistant coaches of one youth national team would work. I'm sorry, the head coaches of one youth national team would work as an assistant coach with the one above it. So they would get experienced and they would be prepared to go to that next team if needed. And so I believe that if you look at the past World Cups, you'll almost always have had coaches at the U-S. 17 World Cup with the U.S. boys who had been there before. you know, the staff that they have now, it was obviously not going to be as familiar with the boys

and perhaps not as familiar with American boys being in a situation like this. That's not to say that, you know, Senegal didn't turn out to be much better than we thought they were. We're a formidable team. I know, you know, I listened to your analysis on the game on your podcast, which I thought was excellent. The only thing I would add to that was, you know, we talked about, you talked about a lot about the athleticism,

which obviously is a factor. You know, two years ago, the U.S. beat Ghana, which would have been similarly athletic, I would say. So anyway, we'll see what happens in the future, but the eyes are on the fact that this is happening at this point. There are too many questions about what's going on with the national team program. Well, let's get into the stuff I have prepared here. And I'm going to sort of switch it around. I wanted to start with the Latino task force. But let's go right to the youth national team coaching vacancy.

Why are they not filling jobs in the youth national team ranks? I mean, maybe could you just sort of summarize the vacancies and how long they've been vacant? And then answer, why you think these jobs aren't being filled? Yeah, youth national team coaches started leaving the Federation at the end of 2017 and throughout 2018. Mainly, all of them mainly left, except for freedom left a little bit before, you know, after the regime change, after Cordero became the president. And Tabramas, who was supposed to be in charge of the youth program, was no longer able to hire coaches.

He was basically taken out of the loop by U.S. soccer. So it seemed to me that what was going on was a kind of a cleaning house, house cleaning, because there's a new regime. Now, that may be acceptable because it's something that happens, but it's one thing to clean house. It's another thing not to replace anybody, which is, I don't know the answer to that. It's completely mind-boggling.

Why in the world would you not hire coaches? And you can also look at the last couple years and three years of the youth national team program on the boy side, and I make a very strong argument that it was as progressed to a level that it had never seen before. Based not only on the results, you know, getting to quarterfinals of the U17s and U-8 teams, which, you know, was unique except for England.

In general, we've got a lot of things. more players than ever who have been courted and signed by pro clubs. So that must say something about that. And in many cases, these kids who have gone onto the pros were discovered, you know, while playing for the youth national team. Now, Tabramos is very clear that the progress of the youth national team affects to the, to the work at the club level. But also, I believe that the national team program was being,

what was relatively effective and promising. So, okay, why do you clean house if that's the case? And two, if you did, why didn't you? How can you not keep it fully operational? And I don't know why that is happening. It's hard to explain. I don't know if anybody can explain it. Maybe they just want to wait until they have their own technical director in charge

and then let him or her probably him do all the hiring? I guess they're scouring in Holland and other parts of Northern Europe for somebody and they can't find anybody yet. I really don't know. You know, a lot of the answers to the problems at the U.S. Soccer Federation has is right in front of them. There is so much talent in soccer at the youth level and in other areas

that is willing to help and would be competent to help and would have their heart in it the way that the previous staff had. I know for a fact that the people that were working on these national teams, you know, that was their life's work. That cared about that more than they went through, they were true, you know, they would make sacrifices. They would take pay that I think was too low for these positions. And they're there.

Why are they being ignored is another indication. I believe that the Federation has lost touch with its membership and with the soccer at the grassroots and what's really happening here. Look at who's there at the Federation. Who's left? Who's left at the U.S. Soccer Federation will understand American soccer, especially at the youth level. I don't have an answer for that because I can't think of one person. Not one person. Ernie Stewart does not have experience in American soccer besides his shortstant with the Philadelphia Union.

He hasn't spent a lot of time on the youth fields of American soccer, and he is in charge of everything now. Yeah, right. Well, you know, Wicke, Rafa Wickey, the coach of the U-17s now, who was the one who was hired in March, I think a lot of us were pleased with the work that he did with that group in Conca Calf qualifying. They certainly looked better at the end of the tournament

than they did at the beginning of the tournament. And I wonder if, you know, is that? Just because Kaka Kaff is so weak, like we go into this, we go into this game with Senegal, we look like we're not even on the same level. Is the weakness of Kaka Kaff something that's going to make anybody look good in a Kaka Kav? I'm not sure. I'm not sure of it's that. And it's hard to say what would have happened if he wasn't there. But it is true that if you had had kept on a coach like John Sakeris, he had experience of why.

watching a team go through Conkacoff and then playing a Ghana and then playing a Paraguay. You know, the U.S. national team program has been full of coaches who have spent years and years and years, taking players into different situations. And I think that's a valuable experience that Wiki wouldn't have had. And I'm not questioning whether Wiki is a good coach or not. But it is a fact that he did not have the experience with the American player that so many other viable candidates for that position would have had. Yeah, okay. And I know, I know, Sean, I'll just put in a word for Sean Secure. It's like everybody I talk to who is aware of him or has work with him praises him. And that seems like a sad thing that he had to leave. I guess it was last year, late last year, early this year.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, hopefully these kids, because I think, I don't, you know, I think there's talent in this group. And it's a hard tournament to navigate. And it's an interesting tournament. It's a tournament I look forward to very much because it's a fantastic age. group to watch. And it's a great, great test of playing against different styles. So they have a, you know, African team, the Asian champion and the European champion that they get to play and group play. And that's a neat thing to be able to watch and to see how they handle it. You know, maybe they'll bounce back. You know, that's part of the coaching staff's job is going to be to build them up after this, you know, defeat. Oh, can I say one more thing? Three teams. The way the tournament set up because it's 24 teams,

you've got four of the six groups will have three teams at advance. So it's not that hard to advance even if you lost your first game. Right. Still alive and kicking. You interviewed Nico Romaine and Ryan Mooney, who is no longer with U.S. soccer about a year ago about coaching education and some other things. I do want people to sign up for a soccer America subscription, but I wonder, you know, to the extent that you're comfortable,

could you sort of share what you took away from that interview? Yeah, so Nika Romaine was hired by the U.S. soccer a few years ago from the Dutch Federation, where his job was in education, coaching schools. And this being during a time when the Netherlands hit rock bottom and the men's team didn't qualify for the European Championship in the World Cup. Anyway, so Nika Romaine is in charge of everything, Ryan Mooney at the time was chief soccer officers. Both people who had, say, who controlled what Tabramas could do,

even though Tabramas had a million times more experience, it was a million times more qualified to make decisions about the youth program. Anyway, in this interview, I asked him a number of things about what was going on and how they were handling certain issues that I think are important. A couple of them that jumped in mind are the stringent coaching licenses and how expensive they are and how I believe they shut out. Latino coaches and lower income coaches. And one of the examples and that I know that the Development Academy clubs

have had a hard time with is the strict restriction requirement that you have to be licensed to coach the academy team. So that means that you have to pay coaches more, you have to spend more money on getting licensed. And my question was whether they really believed that a C licensed coach was not qualified to coach an under 12 or an under 14 game and they gave some, you know, weird pseudo academic answer about,

yeah, no, you need a B license, which I think is absurd. And it's sort of they're contradicting their own system. If they, you know, they have this rigorous C license. And then they say, well, yeah, you went through all that, you paid all this money, but that's not even good enough to coach, you know, 12-year-old boys. So that was the kind of thing that was going on there. And I think it was kind of a showed a little bit how, you know,

that you bring some sort of Dutch mindset to American soccer and not understand what kind of a bird. and a requirement like that places on the grassroots. You know, the other question I asked them was whether it was true that among A, B, C, licensed coaches, it was only about, you know, 5% which you know or so. And they claimed that they did not know the demographic of their coaches, which to me doesn't sound good. It sounds like they weren't trying hard.

It's not that hard to figure that out, right? And you should, right? You should know that because you're a national organization, and whether it's soccer or not, You want to represent your membership. You want to give opportunities to all of your membership. And in soccer, it's especially important that we pay attention to the Latino community because obviously the soccer talent that's there and the soccer culture that's there. That makes our entire soccer culture a richer one and a better one as far as, you know,

it's the way soccer works. You embrace the different diversities of your soccer community, and that usually turns into good soccer. You see club soccer in Europe, and you can look at them. They've got a combination of European, Latin, African-type players, national teams even have combinations of different types of players. It's a great formula for success that we need to embrace, you know, especially when it comes to the Federation that's coaching schools. Yeah, it didn't seem to me that they didn't come across as seriously interested in figuring out how to lower the cost of coaching licenses or get more Latino coaches licensed. and

No That's me editorializing a little bit I guess Romaine is the I can't remember What his exact title is But he's still

Chief Sport So he's still there Do you have any Any insight into Last I heard Last I heard He's still there So

One of the few people Still with the Federation Yeah Sorry I'm joking About something serious They've got like 20 something Positions

But Phil You know Because Ryan Mooney's Successor Asher Mendelsso Didn't last very long He's gone.

Jared Nicholas, who was running the administration of the youth national teams and the Development Academy is gone. All the youth national team coaches are gone. A number of administrators are gone. Do you have any idea how Romaine's job interfaces, sorry to use that word, it's a horrible word, but interfaces with stewards at this point? Like, are they... No, that's a big question.

That's a big question because now Stewart is in charge of absolutely everything. And that includes, by the way, the women's and girls national team program, even though as far as I can find out, discovered, learning so he has zero experience in women's and girls soccer. But he's also in charge of that part of the Federation as an aside. Oh, brother. Okay. Well, let's talk about the, let's talk about the diversity issue. You wrote that story a month ago about, I think it was. Would you mind?

Yeah, it was September. Early September, yeah. Yeah, can you walk us through how you got on? to it, how you reported it? Yeah. So when Carlos Godera was elected president shortly after,

he promised that he would, you know, pay more attention to the grassroots and get feedback and addresses several. He listed several issues of challenges in youth soccer that were, you know,

also when he was, that he was going to create a task force. And that was going to, you know, represent the youth community in soccer and they were going to address these issues. And when they first announced it,

It was remarkable because they named a group of, you know, nine. And they were all the usual, you know, they were the leaders of the youth organizations. They were the people who had, you know, been around forever, the usual suspects. And it was, you know, it was white, white men. There was no representation of women nor minority groups. But they said, we said, okay, well, what's the deal here? And they said, no, no, no, don't fly off the handle. we're going to we're going to add more.

We're going to make this, you know, we're going to add more. So we waited and waited and we asked, we ask, we know, where's the list? Where's the list? And one day I finally got the list. And there were about 60 people on it. And I looked at it and skim, skim through it. And I didn't notice any Latino names. And so it turned out there weren't.

There was one woman, a Latina from AASO who actually just entered soccer a couple of years ago. She's more from the marketing side. Otherwise, no one zero zero-zero person with Latin American descent, you know, on that, on that task force, which again, you know, is absolutely mind-boggling. Because even, you know, the United States of America, right? So even if this wasn't any, is this any organization, and you came up with a list of 60, someone in the company would scan it and say, hey, well, whoa, hold on here, you know, this doesn't look right. But we're also talking about soccer, right? So that's even more important because of the culture and the fact that anybody who's been involved in soccer understands, you know, that this is a big part of our soccer community. Interestingly enough, you know, there has been progress, and which I think makes my case even stronger that you need to have representation on the task force in the coaching community.

And that's the fact that our youth national team program has actually done quite well when it comes to with, you know, players. If you look at all the pools from 14th to 20s, in 2019, it's about 40% Latino. You know, they're playing. We are recognizing, finally, that this is a community that offers good soccer and the kind of soccer we like. And it's happening. But they don't have the coaches that would understand the way they might want to play. And they don't even have representation on the task force. And that goes even beyond the players and everything else.

I mean, you know, there's a, Latinos represent a huge proportion of referees in this country. You know, I think that's something that should be paid attention to in referees in general. But yeah, so that's what happened. And they told us afterward that, yeah, they were going to add some Latinos so waiting for that. Still waiting for that? Yeah. Okay.

I mean, you follow the palace intrigue at soccer house probably as closely as anyone. I mean, you're more keyed into this stuff than anybody. How was this not noticed? I mean, how can this happen? It's so, it's so, it's so, well, that's, that's a, that's kind of a, a sad one, a one that, that worries me. And the reason I say that is that, you know, in the past, we're used to things like this happening.

And, and usually you would think, okay, it's an oversight. It's, or they don't understand or something. And you want to hope, you want to really, really hope. that it's not intentional, right? And I'm still hoping it wasn't intentional. But it gets harder and harder, right? Because just like you said, it's egregious. It's unbelievable.

And you just worry, especially in this era that we're living in, right? Because in the United States, you always believe, at least I always believe, that soccer is almost a sanctuary where we will always be welcoming of everyone in our soccer community. We always happen. I think anybody is involved in American soccer. you know, appreciates the diversity of this country and embraces it and understands how good it is for everybody.

You know, and so I've always believed and felt comfortable and enjoyed being in the soccer community because that's how I feel about it. So when you see something like this, you know, 60 people and no Latino representation and then the last Latino coach in the Federation, Tabramos, you know, gets pushed aside. He's, you know, he's moving on, but he's moving. on because he wasn't wanted there.

That's not to say that he, that Ta-Roma isn't going to be a great unless coach and it's a good thing for him to move on. But yeah, so they do that and they follow it up with having no Latinos in their coaching staff. Who ultimately is the person you would like to talk, you would like to talk to about that at Soccer House

who you haven't been able to talk to? Yeah, no, I definitely need to talk to Ernie. That's the number one on my list. Yes, yeah, and, you know, that's, we need to hear from Ernie. We need to hear from Gooddaro. One of these days, they need to hire a CEO. Okay, well, Hugo Perez said in a nation article, I mean, I'm just going to keep on with this catalog of sad stuff, but he said in a nation article last week that part of the reason

he was fired from U.S. soccer, which I believe was in 2014, was because he spoke Spanish with some players, which adds to this sense. at least on the internet that soccer house is a bunch of cartoon villains. What is your take? What is going on there? So I can't tell you exactly why you got fired. I think that I think the issue with Ugo Perez is that everybody I know respects his scouting ability, his connections to the talent of the Latino community,

his ability to make the players and the families feel comfortable. So he would be an asset to the U.S. Soccer Federation. You know, if the position he had earlier, and I'm not talking about the, because I don't know the, about the Spanish-speaking stuff that's, you know, if that's part of it, it's stupid, because, you know, that's something that can be addressed

and that can be handled in that. But anyway, my point is that if there was, If his position at the time, his technical advisor wasn't working out the way they wanted it to, I think the next approach would have been to have a position that would suit Google, you know, that he's too valuable not to have on our side when it comes to his scouting player identification. You know, he'd be an asset, obviously, especially because in the United States, it's so rare that we have someone like that.

and the Federation doesn't seem to try to find people like that. So, you know, now Ugo is scouting for Mexico, which in the long one of the greatest thing that ever happened, because one of the greatest thing that ever happened was Mexico scouting Mexican-Americans because that was a huge wake-up call. And if they take them to, you know, if they discover the kid, there's always a chance the kid can come back in place for the U.S. But, you know, Hugo was one of the greatest players that were played for the United States.

You know, he went through a similar immigrant experience And a lot of these kids You know, he was coach of a terrific group of players That included Polisic and McKinney And Johnson Gonzalez And, you know, he had a good run there And so it's somebody's with the other side Yeah

Well, I got a couple other things here The development academy You know, this is fresh on my mind Watching these boys last night against Senegal it did seem like we were soft compared to them. You may disagree with that. But I wonder, if you agree, how do you think the DA is doing it preparing players for pro soccer? Yeah.

So I'm not going to go based on that game. I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but I'm just saying that my answer is going to be about just generally. I think the DA was a very good idea in the beginning. I think it did a lot of great things for American soccer. I think when it comes to some of the players moving into the pros and being prepared for the pros, the DA has, it's gets some credit for that. One thing that I think is a giant problem when the DA is there's strict regulations

and rules and everything, and then I'll throw one out and it relates to what you said about, you know, the players perhaps being soft. And that's the fact that, you know, if they play on a Sunday in an adult league and get discovered, they get punished. They get suspended. If they sneak out and play for their high school, they get suspended. And, you know, they get punished.

The Federation, right, has gotten to a point where they think they're so perfect that players don't need to do anything else to play in their academy. And, you know, I've been to these academy events and I'm very impressed with soccer at the Development Academy. You know, it used to be in the old days. My impression was that a really good team, I'd have three or four great players and a few good players and some like that. Now, the overall quality of the DAIs that I've begun to have gone to is impressive.

And, you know, it's also been very good for the Latino player. It's been fantastic for the Latino player. A lot of these teams like the Galaxy, especially Brian Clivens teams, FC Dallas, et cetera. But what I noticed when I was watching these DA games, I go, you know, this is a great environment for the kids. It's a great environment for the coaches and referees. It's a wonderful thing.

But, you know, maybe on Sunday they should go out and do something a little scrappier. and almost every player who's made it, who I've talked to, like whether it's Clint Dempsey, and you can ask this like the directors who are directing, who are players who are directing DA clubs, they'll tell you that they would sneak off and play in adult leagues, you know, even in college. And that was a big part of their development,

especially in the Tina community, where, you know, their uncles will be playing or something. And so I think that the DA is at a point where it has to be re-evalued, should U.S. soccer even be doing it anymore. Maybe the pros do their own thing, and then the amateur clubs do their thing. But let's kind of like back up a little bit and say, okay, let's bring some freedom back to the clubs

to decide how they want to do things. And part of the reason I think is that we're such a giant country and certain things might be better in one part of the country than another part of the country. I would regionalize things more. I would back off on this whole like cookie cutter approach. Everybody's got to play this way. you know, that gets back to the coaching schools a little bit.

You know, I've been around for a while, and I think anybody's around for a while knows that whatever they're telling us is the way to play soccer now, it's going to be something different five years from now. So why do we have to, like, have everybody in the country do the same thing? Let's have people go ahead and do what they think is good and see what works out. And if they're worried that, okay,

you're going to have clubs there playing crap soccer and, you know, Route 1 soccer and Buddhist soccer that we don't like to see. Well, that's not a bad thing either, because the teams they play against, those players have to learn how to deal with that too. So I think we need to loosen things up again. And now I think I'm much more confident in saying that than I would have been 15 years ago

when the DA was getting started because back then I think right now I have a lot of confidence in the coaches and the clubs at the grassroots level and the youth level. I think so many clubs want to do the right thing, coach the right, you know, they want to play good soccer, they want skillful players. I think we've all kind of advanced to what we've. know is successful soccer, which is the more sophisticated game and also more entertaining type of thing. So I think we're at the point where we can trust our coaches and not have someone who we imported, you know, from Northern Europe to make the, to set a standard

that everybody has to follow. Yeah. Okay. Well, anything else you want to talk about? I don't want to keep you too long. No, it's been a pleasure. You know, I want to be optimistic. and I do think that sometimes we think that, you know, there was a time where I think there was too much negativity where we thought, well, everything's going wrong because I think we didn't qualify for the World Cup and that we forgot that we had actually come quite far and a lot of people had done some good work. And even if the last couple of things they did didn't turn out perfectly, that didn't mean they did a lot of good things in the past. Unfortunately, with what's happening at the youth national team level, it's hard to try and find the positives because that was the area where we had a lot of optimism in the federal. is not handling the program the way they should be. So I just want to hope that something gets fixed because I do still believe in American players and they're better than ever and I believe in American coaches.

We just need to some leadership that understands that. Yeah. Okay, well, looking forward to your interview with Ernie Stewart and your interview with Carlos Cordero as early as next week. Just kidding. It might not be that early, but we're working at. Yeah, okay. Keep up the good work, Mike, and thanks for your time.

Appreciate it. You're very welcome. Thanks so much. Bye-bye.