Scuffed | USMNT, World Cup, Yanks Abroad, futbol in America - Episode 123: What’s John Pranjic’s problem with American soccer?

Episode Date: February 25, 2020

John Pranjic, the host of the 3four3 podcast, joins for a conversation about the need for promotion/relegation, his problem with most American soccer media, and the best USMNT XI right now. I made detailed shownotes for those who want to skip around.0:30 intro1:20 Pranjic injury news2:45 why he says “you don’t know” to people on Twitter7:35 is the problem ultimately the lack of promotion/relegation in U.S. soccer?10:40 does Pranjic really think only “yes-people” get to have power at USSF?14:00 why pro/rel is so important20:20 Belz: we just fell into a closed system; Pranjic: no, we didn’t just fall into this23:30 what’s the way to get to pro/rel?27:40 is it selling out to talk about sweetening the pot to encourage MLS owners to embrace pro/rel?31:40 how to you reconcile a deeply flawed system with some of the exciting players that are being developed?36:00 Pranjic’s problem with the American soccer media40:30 Belz: media criticism should be specific42:45 Belz: do you only respect journalists who are advocating for pro/rel?44:40 the distinction between punditry and reporting48:00 Belz compares the Jermaine Jones interview to Day of the Locust51:00 extended discussion of soccer media58:00 Belz forces Pranjic to come up with a USMNT XI for Marchhttps://twitter.com/ThatCroatianGuyhttp://blog.3four3.com/ Skip the ads! Subscribe to Scuffed on Patreon and get all episodes ad-free, plus any bonus episodes. Patrons at $5 a month or more also get access to Clip Notes, a video of key moments on the field we discuss on the show, plus all patrons get access to our private Discord server, live call-in shows, and the full catalog of historic recaps we've made: https://www.patreon.com/scuffedAlso, check out Boots on the Ground, our USWNT-focused spinoff podcast headed up by Tara and Vince. They are cooking over there, you can listen here: https://boots-on-the-ground.simplecast.comAnd check out our MERCH, baby. We have better stuff than you might think: https://www.scuffedhq.com/store Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Scufft podcast. I'm Adam Bells in Minneapolis. With me is Greg Velasquez in Des Moines. We talk about U.S. men's soccer. Thanks for downloading this episode of Scuffed. Our guest today is a man who's a little bit grumpy and argumentative. He's certainly come after me before, but he's a passionate student of the game, a coach, a coach, and the host of a podcast that explores soccer, how to play it, how to coach it, how to teach people to play it at all levels. His name is John Pranich, and he's the host of the 343 podcast at that Croatian guy on Twitter. I'm sure you've seen him before. John, welcome to the scuffed. Hey, Adam. Thank you so much for having me, man. This is a role reversal.

I think a long time ago, I had you on my podcast. Early days. Yeah, early days of scuffed. Switch it. I really appreciated that. I thought we had a good conversation. Absolutely. Yeah, one of many.

I know that, you know, people see our interactions on Twitter. Or they, you know, hear different things, whatever. but you and I have spoken on the phone, I don't know how many times and texted. I don't know how many times. So I hope people don't read too much into what they, in the little they see amongst us. We get along all right.

We get along all right. You're dealing with some kind of leg injury, I see. And you're about to get surgery? Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, fun times for me. Yeah, on Thanksgiving morning, I tore my rectus femoris muscle, which is that big quad muscle right in the front of your thigh.

So I basically ripped that in half. And I've been dealing with that. I've re-injured it twice since initially doing it. And because of the rate of recurrence and the severity of the actual injury itself, doctors are now going to try to repair it surgically. So every day is just rehab and the gym and then post-rehab stuff and getting ready for the next day. But it's just kind of just building the muscles.

around it to get strong right now. So that way once surgery happens, I'll have a quicker bounce back when I restart rehab, I don't know, three to four weeks after surgery. So that's a day in the life of John right now. Yeah, man, sorry about that. I suppose you can't ref right now.

No, yeah, I can barely walk. Okay. So I haven't roughed the game since November. And the surgery you said was in March? Is it in March? Yeah, it'll be March 18th of the day of my surgery. Okay. Well, all the best to you.

Let's get into it. Let's get into the content here. Let's do it. One of the things I've noticed you saying a lot on social media is, you don't know. Quote, you don't know, or you don't know what you don't know. What do a lot of the people you're interacting with not know? And we're talking about American soccer here. There's a lot that people don't know, but American soccer wise.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of, well, I'm going to, I've got to figure out how I want to say this, I guess, without saying too much. Okay. I've been privileged to get to know a different side of soccer than I think a lot of people think even exists or no even exists, which is kind of like a behind the scenes or a back room or those types of things. And as a youth soccer coach, I was so focused on just the day-to-day happenings of coaching. kids of running practice, of competing in a local league circuit. And a lot of times coaches and parents and players are so zoomed in on just those little things that they touch on a daily or a weekly basis that they don't, they just don't know how much else or how much more is happening in the American soccer environment that is

actually directly impacting what. is taking place on their field. You know, why, why is one team outside of the development academy versus why one team is involved in the development academy? Why is the development academy only for boys in my area? Why is EC&L even existing? So, like, all these different, like, different things are all happening. There's just so much to tackle in American soccer that a lot of times people,

literally do not know what is impacting their own personal situation, their trajectory of their player, the trajectory of their coach, the access to coaching education. There's so many big, big, big, big items that a lot of times just people just don't know. And like I said, I'm very fortunate and privileged to have been exposed to some of that through. you know, talking to people on my podcast, through getting to know more and more people in the professional game through what I've had to deal with with refereeing soccer and all kinds of different facets. And yeah, just a little bit more of a holistic view on the game now that I'm able to see it a little bit differently than a lot of people. And I still feel

like I haven't even done a good job of explaining that because, again, there's just, there's so much behind the scenes, behind the curtain type stuff that people just really honestly do not know. And because it's not on their, it's not on their radar. It doesn't affect them. I put that in air quotes. At least it doesn't affect them in the way that they can see immediately, right? It's kind of what you're saying. Exactly.

So for example, like here's a good example, kind of like a more recent example too. all these kids in the development academy, all the families recently had to sign like some paper that basically released their rights to the club that they're part of, right? And as a parent of a 12-year-old that's unsuspecting, doesn't know anything about, you know, where their club or where their player's trajectory might be going in the next four, five, six years, you know, they might treat it like a waiver. Like, oh, maybe my kid just needs this so he can keep playing with the Chicago Fire Academy or whatever example, right? And then, you know, come to find out four years from now, like, oh, like my player is actually really good and he's gaining some interest from Europe or from Mexico or whatever.

But because they signed that paper four years ago when the kid was 12, oh, man, like sorry, like, you know, your player's too expensive now. or things. It's just these are things that people don't know, right? And these are the things that don't get a lot of air time. They don't get in front of people a lot. And because, you know, little Susie's parents or Johnny's parents, you know, when they're, when they're 12 years old, they didn't see it right in front of them at that time. They, you know, they didn't know. I don't know if that's a, no, that makes sense.

No, that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, does it all, so it's just to be as, like, explicit as we can be. about all this. Does it all come back to pro rel? Is that your view? It all comes back to the lack of promotion, relegation in American soccer?

I mean, it's easy to draw, to draw roads back to that. That's one major, major, major component. That's one major thing that we are missing. But in a way, it's also a way for ideas to compete, right? And so in order to get your ideas, your way of playing, your philosophy, your way of doing business, in order to get that into the limelight, right? Like, you have to be able to compete and compete and compete yourself to the top or to the pedestal or to the megaphone or whatever, you know, philosophical thing you want to put right there.

But if you don't even have that opportunity to compete in the arena, if you don't have you if you don't have an opportunity to even step foot in there, then your idea is that how are you going to gain interest or or gain support for all of your ideas or your way of doing things or or those types of things. And so I guess what I'm kind of getting at is that in an American soccer, U.S. soccer, U.S.S.S.F to be specific and with major league soccer, there is no competition of ideas. People with alternative ideas are considered outsiders and they're and they're shunned. They're pushed to the friends. of, you know, the organizations that they're part of, if not pushed to the fringes, pushed completely out the door. I mean, just obliterated from the face of the earth. And the people that get closer and closer to the pedestal, to the megaphone, to the table, are the people that are yes men, yes women. They are the people that agree with the way that U.S. soccer are doing things.

and they're not going to try to disrupt anything. And from everything that we have in human history, right, like, these are bad signs. These are very bad signs. And you need a competition of ideas. You need two sides, three sides, four sides, arguing and working together to make things better. And with the way that American soccer is set up with the lack of promotion relegation, you have just kind of just one, you're better with words than me.

Is it monolithic? Is that a good word that? Yeah, monolithic. Yeah. That's a perfect way, I think. So that's kind of how U.S. soccer operates. Like, it's just one way of doing things. And if you don't like it, you can leave and they will bring in somebody else that does.

And that's the way that things are going to continue. and promotion relegation. Well, I do want to get into promotion or allegation, but let me just ask this. Do you really think it's so binary where like if you, unless you are a yes man or a woman, you don't get close to Chicago.

And let me just add, I think, you know, who the people that are making the decisions, you know, at least from the outside looking in, there's been a little bit of change there, right? Jay Burrhalter's on his way out. There may be somebody behind the curtain behind Jay.

I don't know. But, you know, Ernie Stewart's relatively new. So who's the, like, who's the, so two-part question, I guess. Is it so binary? And if it's so binary, who is the, who's behind the curtain? Who's the person that people are saying yes to consistently over the years? Well, it's a good question. And I don't, I'm not going to try and speculate and say that I know.

who the, you know, the conspirators are or anything like that. I just kind of look at it from, from my point of view and from the touchpoints that I've had within U.S. soccer, like I said, through coaching, through refereeing, through my podcast, through talking with professional players and coaches, through watching interviews with, you know, the current and former professionals, and trying to take all of that data, and then, you know, forming an opinion from that. So it's not something that I just, you know, pull out of my ass, for lack of better terms. But yes, I do believe that there are more yes people brought into the fold than not.

I believe that the evidence over the last three to five years maybe, I could be wrong with those numbers, but the people that started to kind of make noise were then asked to leave. and some of that more high profile, more recent examples, maybe Tab Ramos, Sean Securis, pretty much every youth national team coach all the way up to the senior national team coach

with Yergen. You know, if you make noise, you, in the last three, five, six, seven years, it was frowned upon and at some point you were asked to leave or were just not welcomed back.

So I, I kind of take all those things, you know, as individual stories and piece those together to create just a bigger piece of evidence, I guess, for believing that yes, people are the people that U.S. soccer are looking for. And I tweeted out recently, this didn't get as much traction as it probably should. Not my tweet. I'm just saying the quote in general, because it's a video that U.S. soccer released. But this video of Anthony Hudson,

one of the newer youth soccer coaches for U.S. soccer, in his video, he said, my job is to completely embrace the direction of U.S. soccer. And that just, you know, to me again, was like, yeah, okay, so here's another yes man for you. No problem. Yeah, well, I mean, I guess, I should say, there are definitely, I agree there are definitely examples of agitators being pushed out over the last few years.

I mean, there's no, there's no disputing that. Let's talk about, let's talk about pro rel. Why is it so important? Like, give us the, give us the full-throated, vivid, inspiring portrait of why it's so important. Well, I kind of touched on it a little bit ago. it's a competition of ideas and different ways to do things. There is no one right answer. You see it every day on soccer Twitter where you have people, you know,

exchanging ideas and putting their thoughts out there. This is the best way to do it or this is the best way to do it. And there's no way to determine the best way to do it unless you put those two ideas in a ring with each other and let them fight it out, right? So, you know, U.S. soccer saying that, hey, you know, this is the best way, this is the best way to do it to all, all their coaches, whatever, you know, maybe it's not the best way to do it. And maybe there are better ways to do it.

But these, the mechanisms are not in place for a team from Los Angeles to prove themselves all the way through the ranks, right? Because that's the way that it's done all over the world. except for North America now because Mexico is going to be leaving that way of competing as well. So that leaves Canada, USA, and Mexico as like the three nations, maybe three or four. I think Australia still hasn't embraced it. Maybe it's part of the new NAFTA agreement that you have to. That's right.

Yeah. But yeah, I mean, that's essential. to football all around the world is that, you know, everybody has a chance to come up with their own idea and, and put their ideas, bring their ideas to life. And if it works and it keeps working and it keeps working, it keeps working, awesome. You are given the opportunity to climb all the way as high as you possibly can.

And if your idea suck and your philosophy sucks, well, then you get exposed and you keep sucking, and then you keep going down, down, down, until you don't exist anymore. Right. And some people here in American soccer are, for whatever reason, wanting to protect these people that, you know, started soccer in 1994 in the States or whatever. And so they're like, well, we can't just let those teams go to the second division and the third division and the fourth division. Like what happened to those teams go out of existence. If they go out of existence, it's the same thing as if the liquor store down the street from my house goes out of existence.

It means they're bad at business. And that's their fault. I mean, to be completely blunt, right? But there's no reason to protect my liquor store down the street from going out of business if they suck at business. And they just because they existed in 1996. That's totally illogical to me. And that seems to be one of the reasons. that always pops up on soccer Twitter.

It's like, well, what about these guys? They invested so much money back in the day. Plenty of people have invested plenty of money and plenty of things. And there's been no protection for many people around the entire world. Just because you invest money in something, there's not guarantee you protection for life for anything. Or for your life and for the life of your children and grandchildren, which is I sort of suspect is what's going to happen in America with soccer.

Yeah, I mean, it's certainly, it's certainly appealing, you know. Well, I don't want to cut you off. Keep going if you. No. Yeah. No. I, yeah. And it is a, it is a, it is a, it is a very big topic at him.

And I can already tell that in the five minutes I've been rambling, I've, I've, I've gone in different, in many different directions, right? But I think it, what it, what it ultimately comes down to is that if we, if we really do want to be. a powerhouse soccer nation. If we really do want to be like the American dream, if we want that to come true in American soccer, we need to give as many people as possible the opportunity to prove themselves on the field and to welcome as many ideas on how to succeed as physically and humanly possible and to give those ideas an arena, a proper arena to compete in. Right now, we don't have an arena that welcomes everybody. We have an arena that only allows X amount of people to compete and only allows the

rest to stand by and watch. And not only are those people asked to watch, but those people are asked to support with, you know, financially and fanatically these select few that have been welcomed into the arena. And that to me seems wrong. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I think I actually don't even know how many people on a pure, like, philosophical level would disagree with what you just said. I know there are some, but like soccer fans who are even minimally educated about the world game, they recognize how cool promotion and relegation is and how like, and this whole, this competition that is engendered.

And like, it's weird that the United States of America, which is, you know, one of the most capitalist nations in the world is one of the three nations. There may be a couple more. Maybe Australia, right, doesn't have pro ral. I don't know. Yeah. A handful of nations around the world that doesn't have sort of soccer capitalism. And it's because we, it's because our other sports, our other sports are governed on this closed system model. that's sort of the model in American sports

and the model in Europe obviously is promotion relegation and we just kind of like fell into this don't you think I mean it just kind of happened here we are 25 years later I don't know if we just fell into it but I think there was definitely you know intent behind the design of American soccer and I think there was definitely you know And it, yeah, it didn't just come out of thin air the way that soccer was set up in this country.

Came out of the structure of the NFL, basically. Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, there's been, you know, pieces of, like, historical, like, little documents, like, paperwork and things like that that have shown that the plan for American soccer did include promotion relegation at different points. and the plan to get the 1994 World Cup was, you know, it just hinged on a professional league being constructed, right? And so that plan and that initial plan to build that league, included promotion and relegation, included the entire country, you know, letting everybody in.

And at some point they made the decision to model it more like the NFL, more like the NBA, because those things were working in the early 90s, late 80s, early 90s. And so that's the direction that it went. And that's the direction that we still have today, regardless of all the faults that exist in all of those leagues, right? Including American soccer. And people are always like, well, if it works for American football, then why won't it work for American soccer? and it's like if you really look at it,

American football isn't really competing with any other international counterparts, right? It's really just a domestic league. That is the competition. They are their own competition in that sport. But American soccer is not that.

And now we're starting to see that. We're starting to see some of the impacts of not playing by the same rules as the rest of the world with things like training compensation and solidarity payments and kids leaving to go to Europe and all kinds of other things. So we didn't want to play by the world's rules. And then now some teams are getting burned by that, right?

American soccer is getting kind of burned by that. And now they're trying to kick some other defense mechanisms and play. to make sure that doesn't happen anymore. So no more damage can be inflicted on them. But it's also them recognizing like, oh, shit, like maybe we did something wrong. Yeah. But then the recognition of that is followed by sort of a piecemeal approach. I don't know what, I don't want to get too deep in the weeds, but like what do you,

what do you think is the way to get to pro rel? Like how does it happen? Just by U.S. soccer saying, like we're doing this. MLS has to get on board. Bingo bingo. Is that it? Ideally,

ideally that would be what would happen, right? So a lot of people are throwing around these ideas of promotion and relegation in major league soccer or MLS1, MLS2, MLS3, right? Like thinking that just because there's some type of movement up and down between leagues that that fixes the problem. It's like, well, not really because then you're still dealing with a closed door at the bottom of that league, right? Or at the bottom of that little pyramid,

and you're still only dealing with franchises that are within major league soccer's setup. So you're not welcoming in everybody to compete. So that's a big, that's a big, big issue. So that's one thing that people need to understand is that it can't be promotion relegation in major league soccer so it has to be promotion relegation for american soccer uh u s soccer so that's that's one one thing that is commonly misunderstood um but now that's been addressed yeah ideally it would be yeah ideally it would be u.s soccer you know coming out and saying hey

in five years from now we are going to introduce uh promotion relegation between the first and second divisions, or first second and third divisions, maybe. I was trying not to get greedy. So you guys have five years to mobilize your plan for how you guys are going to operate your businesses. You guys have five years to prepare yourselves for this competition. And that also mobilizes the rest of the market too, right? So if that's going to happen in five years, and six years,

they're going to open up the door to Division 3. Seven years, Division 4, eight years, division, then, you know, just opening all the doors at some point, right? U.S. soccer has to come out and say that, though. They can't just do it overnight. People, this is another common thing, right? Like, U.S. soccer is not going to, and should not,

you know, say, we are going to have promotion relegation starting in 2021. If they said that today, that would not be good for American soccer, in my opinion. But if they said, going to do it in 2024 or 2025. I think that's good for American soccer. It gives plenty of people time to mobilize to adjust their business plans, to get their

rosters perfected, bring in the right office staff, bring in the right coaching staff, everything. It mobilizes the market and gives people time to prepare. And if you cannot prepare yourself for business in a five-year time span, why do you need protection for your business at all. Why should you even be in business to begin with is kind of where I go at that point? If you're going to bottom feed for five years, then what's the point of you even owning a professional sports team at that point? Right. Well, the point is, yeah, no, I totally agree. And they're a franchise in MLS that you can very reasonably imagine would

not be able to mobilize in five years. There are plenty of bottom feeding going on. But I think the argument, you know, nobody will say this. But the real deal is that what these MLS owners are buying into and what the early MLS owners bought into is a collective, it's a collective investment, right? It's a, the franchise fees are higher now because the valuation is higher. And, you know, they don't, they're not interested in mobilizing a individual business. They're interested in being shareholders in a, I don't know, a collective brand, a collective, organization. So I don't know.

I mean, how do you, is there, is, is it, is it, is it, is a, it's a sellout to talk about sweetening the pot for those guys, mostly guys, let's be honest. And, uh, and like find a way to sort of pay them out over time for the, for the good of the sport long term just so that they won't, you know, essentially file a lawsuit that adds to the, half dozen lawsuits USSF is already dealing with? Well, a couple of things.

I don't think that people necessarily understand the amount of investment that these people have really put into their MLF franchises. And what I mean by that is actually it's probably a smaller percentage of their actual net worth

than people would imagine. You know, when you're talking about billionaires investing, you know, $25 million, maybe 10 years ago. I can't remember what the, what the valuation of a team was 10 years ago. Sounds about right. Even to this point now where it's, you know, $250 or $300 million, you're seeing that spread amongst more people, number one. So if you look at LFC's ownership, like how many people were at that ribbon cutting, right?

How many very wealthy people are at that ribbon cutting, number one? And then the majority owner, so you're looking at, you know, somebody that just owns, I can't remember what the percentage is, for lack better, from it was 50. percent of the club or 50 percent of the franchise. So you're looking at a billionaire now that has only put in maybe 125 million to start their franchise. So I think when people see these numbers of 300 million, 250 million, all these different things, I think that that is a, it's a massive amount of money, no doubt, but when you put it into perspective of a billionaire's profile, it's a very small percentage in actual.

to that person, in my opinion. No, I get that. I'm just thinking like, you know, rich people are really good at keeping their money and protecting their investments. And they know how to use, they know how to use lawyers. And I just can't see the, like the Robert Crafts of the world and the, I don't know, who else, any of these owners letting this happen without filing a lawsuit. Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe they'd be like, oh, this would be great. But it seems like the chances are not going to welcome it, Adam. They're not going to welcome it. And I think Gary actually had a great tweet the other day that said, you know, the people that are benefiting from the way that things are as they are currently don't want more competition. Yeah, of course not. And the people that are not benefiting, like you and I, for example, right? we not only don't mind competition, a lot of us want to compete.

A lot of us want to be able to get in the ring and throw some punches. And without something like promotion and relegation, we can't. So it's really, you know, you're leaving it up to people that can afford at this point to get into the ring instead of the people that maybe can compete themselves or are good enough to actually compete. So that's the big difference right now Is that we only get a small number of people That are able to compete at this time Right

And yeah those people are not going to go down easy Yeah I would guess not So let me ask this Is there any value to the soccer that is happening in the U.S If ProREL is not implemented I mean I see So I'm much more like I'm much less

passionate about it as you than you, obviously, about ProREL. I see the value. I like it. I would like for it to happen, but I'm kind of just like, well, it's not going to happen anytime soon. Meanwhile, I'm like, I'm really excited about players like, you know, Christian Pulisic, Giovanni Raina, Ullianez, Richie Ledesma being created by this flawed system. Is there, I mean, how do you, let me ask you.

this way. How do you reconcile this like what you see as like a deeply flawed system, but also you love soccer and you like watching soccer and you and I know you like some of these players. You might not admit it right now, but I know you like some of them. So how do you reconcile those two things? Well, I mean, first off, Adam,

it's like when you see something like an FC Dallas or an LA Galaxy or an NYCFC, you know, where you have these full-time academies and you have the kids that are playing Monday through, or practicing Monday through Friday, playing games on Saturdays.

Of course, you know, if the kids are doing that for, you know, 10 years of their youth careers, you know, they started 10, or sorry,

they started 8. And by the time they're 18, they better be ready. And of course, you're going to create maybe, you know, one or two gems during that time frame. And those are,

those are very, very good things, right? But why, why would I be excited that we limit that to just 28 outlets or what what, what, what, what,

yeah, I think it's 26. That's what, that's what, that's what, that's what, that's what, that's what,

that's what, only 26 people can do this. Only, only 20, only 26 of you guys are going to be, uh, considered, considered,

you know, fully professional clubs here in the United States. Only 26 of you are going to be able to chase after your full, uh, your full, uh, economic value. Only 26 of you guys are going to be able to reach your full potential as a club, as a community, as coaches, as players. That to me is where I get upset. So am I happy that

something like FC Dallas exists and they produce players, you know, that are, you know, above average quality? Absolutely. I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled about that. But Knowing that it's one of just 26 or 28 places that's allowed to be that, makes me very upset considering the potential that we're missing out on in this country. I think that, you know, the city of Dallas alone should probably have, you know, multiple full-time academies with multiple clubs that have first teams, whether they're all in the first division or not. That's, you know, that's not a guarantee.

but they should at least be competing in the pyramid. You go to a city like Barcelona, I literally cannot tell you how many professional teams exist in Catalonia alone. There's probably more teams in Catalonia alone than there are professional teams in the United States at the first and second division. So it just blows my mind.

You go over there and you tour, you can tour youth clubs or you can tour youth practices and you're walking around and every youth practice you go to, the first team's training just across the park. It's wild. Every club has a first team

and every club is competing to get better and to climb the ladder. And if not, Adam, a lot of times, too, maybe their goal isn't to get into the first division. Maybe their goal is to be in the sixth division, but then sell players to the first division. Maybe that's their business model. And maybe that works for a team that comes from a town that's 10,000 people.

But that team is part of a very vibrant and successful soccer ecosystem in their country. And right now, we don't even have that in American soccer. If you're from a city of 15,000 people, you're not even on anybody's radar right now. And that's a real bummer. It is a bummer. I can't even remember the original question now. Well, that's okay. Let's move to some other stuff.

So it seems to me like there's a special place in your heart for the American soccer media and its failings. What is the problem, what in your opinion is the problem with the American soccer media? Which includes, you know, in some small way, me. And me. Yeah, you too. What's your problem with yourself, John? I think that we spend a lot of time talking about things that, in all, honestly, don't really matter. We spend a lot of time.

Tam and Gamma? Yeah, we spend a lot of time. Yeah, we just spend a lot of time not touching on important issues. We spend a lot of time, I don't want to say, I don't want to include myself in this because I don't, I don't pull punches. but I think American soccer media spends a lot of time brown nosing. I think that they do a lot of time or spend a lot of time protecting. I think they do a lot of narrative pushing, which I think is very unfortunate. And I, again, like through my experience of interviewing, who knows how many people know,

over 250 episodes, I think now. and my time, you know, over 15 years as a coach in youth soccer and college soccer and high school soccer, over 20 years as a referee. You know, I've seen, I've seen and heard and watched so many different things happen. And knowing what I know now, I listen to guys, for example, like Hercules Gomez and Sebastian, Sela's are talking about, you know, who's to blame, Juergen or Bruce Arena. And I see those guys go back and forth making it sound like it's going to be some intriguing conversation.

And at the end of the interview, there was no substance to it. Like they didn't say anything at all. They said, oh, Bruce and you're going to share the blame. Like, what? Like, okay. So why are we still bringing us up then? Why are we still even talking about this two years since Bruce has been gone? three years since Yergen's been gone, four years since Yergan's been gone.

Why are we still talking about that type of stuff? And so to me, the media doesn't do any justice to real issues like that, like why Bruce was brought in, why Yergan was fired, no justice has been done for those topics. Nobody's really, really, really covered in the mainstream. Nobody's really covered. Greg Burrhalter very critically, in my opinion. A lot of it has been very just kind of softball type stuff.

And I think that's just a symptom of the environment. You get a lot of media members from Major League Soccer outlets that are kind of responsible for being like the local beatwriter for their soccer newspaper as well. And you get a lot of people that write for MLS so they can't maybe hold the, hold U.S. soccer speed to the fire a lot of times because, you know, that is their job. That is, that is their employer a lot of times. And so I get, I get it why a lot of these guys perform their jobs as the way that they do. And girls, the way they perform their job is the way that they do.

But that's not going to stop me from, from wanting them to be better at their jobs or from calling them out or telling them that, you know, they need to be better. So, yeah, maybe I'll stop there and see if you have anything else to come at me with. Well, I, you know, I have some thoughts about the media, like general media criticism. I mean, like, you did name some names there, so I appreciate that. I guess one of my issues with people who criticize the media, whether it's like the media in general or soccer media is, you know, just saying like the media is bad or, you know, the media isn't doing its job is kind of like, I don't know how useful that is, you know. I like, I like it when media criticism, which there's certainly room for, you know,

there's certainly room for media criticism in every sphere, including this one. I like it when there's like specific, here's what I didn't like that this person did. I wish they would have done this, you know. And I think when we, when we go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, I'll give you one more. And so a lot of times, too, like you get guys that will appear to be critical. they'll say something, they'll make a statement after a game, it'll be like a hot take, it'll go viral on Twitter, and it'll make you think that this person, you know, appears to be a

change agent or, you know, they believe in something different. Alexie Lawless is very good at doing something like that. He's very good at, you know, taking a topic and talking about it, but then always bringing it back to be in favor of major league soccer or u.s soccer so he's he he's always uh always finds a way to to make sure that he brings it up and then make sure you know everybody knows that nay but that's not going to work though because that's not what is good for american american soccer or u.s soccer on major league soccer another good example is taylor qualman uh taylor does a great job a lot of times in his little half-time rants he's famous for that one after uh u.s soccer lost to trinidad

the one race screaming. What are we doing here, whatever? But then you see, you see Taylor, you know, super elated and over the top happy about his, his home city of St. Louis

getting a major league franchise put in. And you see Taylor in favor in some different times of promotion relegation or hinting that he's in favor of promotion relegation when ESPN covers a U.S. Open Cup game. But then, you know, a total celebration, you know, for St. Louis getting a major league soccer franchise. And so to me, it's like you can't play both sides of that fence. That's very upsetting to me.

And it's something that maybe a lot of people don't notice. Maybe I look too much into it, to be honest. But those are things that I see. So the thing is like, so am I hearing you right that? unless a member of the media or a reporter or any kind of journalist is you know actively advocating for pro rel and then then you're going to have a hard time with that person I mean is that is that fair to say no no and I understand how that could it how what I said could have came off that way so I probably

didn't I wasn't clear enough let me let me rephrase it like this they don't really believe anything I guess is is one way to put it or they're so indoctrinated in the way that is currently or the way that they saw the game, they were brought up in the game that something like a Major League Blocke or franchise being awarded just completely just reverts them back to the way that it was.

Like, oh, yeah, like, you know, I remember when me and the boys used to get together and this is how it was. Like, they don't really believe in it a lot of times when they cover a topic that is like promotion or allegation. So a lot of times Grant Wall will write about promotion relegation or he'll write about, you know, something that is a little bit risque when it comes to his profile of coverage. But I don't see that as genuine a lot of times.

I don't see it as that he believes that that is what is actually happening or what is right or what is wrong. I think that a lot of times these guys do it for who knows what reason. Adam. I don't know the reason. and so that's why you get a lot of the flip-flopping is that I think these guys a lot of times don't have strong beliefs either way and that allows them to kind of just just run around in circles. I don't know if that makes any more sense. It does. It makes a little bit of sense.

I guess I wonder, do you see a difference between like a reporter who is supposed to be, you know, talking to people and finding stuff out and quote unquote reporting news and say like Alexei Lalas who is definitely not a reporter? Lexi Lollis is just a pundit, you know, a pundit slash, I don't know, pundit. Do you see a distinction there? Because I mean, I definitely do. Paul Tenorio of the Athletic is totally, to me, is a totally different profession from what Taylor Twelman and Alexi Lollis do. Yes. So if you're asking if I see the difference between that, yeah.

And maybe you can help me out because this is kind of your world. It is, you know, I kind of get hung up. up, and I probably shouldn't, I shouldn't think about this too much, but the difference between a reporter and a journalist and then somebody like, yeah, Alexei Lawless, which is kind of like a category of, of influencer almost. Yeah, talking head kind of. Yeah, and so I don't, I don't enjoy Stephen A. Smith. I don't enjoy Colin Coward. I don't enjoy those types of people. And I really do feel like that that's the route that Alexi Lawless took. And that's the example that he tried to follow. and the way that he tries to position himself in the American soccer market. Now, he's nowhere near those guys level. I don't think, but I think that that's what he tried to do or is still trying to do.

And then, yeah, you have guys like Paul, you have guys like Galarcep, you have guys like Grant, you have guys like, you know, that cast, right? and those guys kind of operate in what I think of as kind of like half reporting, half journalism, or half like kind of like investigative journalism sometimes. And so you get a lot of times where they just kind of report the scores or they report a quote or they report something and there's no real substance to it. And then a lot of times too, those guys will write a very, very long story about a topic. And I'm left wondering at the end of the story, it's like, well, why did this?

guy write the story like what like what was the guy's intention behind writing the story was there an intention does there need to be an intention and the most recent example would be grant walls writing of that article about germane jones and so i finished that article and i was like what was this article even about like there was no real like uh direction to the article and it ended and i was like well that's it like there was just a couple like big quotes from germain and and that was all i didn't really i didn't see the need to incorporate any of the stuff about his wife or his personal life or anything like that. Like to me it was just kind of like like,

like eh. And so I'm wondering like Grant's intention behind writing that. And or does he have to have an intention? No, I don't think he does. I think we started. I think the intention needs to be like, is it interesting? That's, if it's interesting, then you report it. And I mean, you know, don't be TMZ.

But like, if it's, I think that's the reporter's job is to, tell people's stuff they didn't know that is that they are interested enough to read. So let me ask you. As a reporter and a fan of American soccer and a person in, you know, interested in informing other people about what's happening in the landscape, like, what did anybody learn from that piece about Jermaine Jones? I loved it. I thought it was almost like, I thought Jermaine's sort of sensibility was on. almost poetic, you know?

He's, it's kind of reminded me of Day of the Locust. It's one of those books you have to read in freshman English class in college about like a guy who goes to Hollywood from New York and gets disillusioned with it. So I, so I just thought, like, I just thought, dude, Germain is going through a lot of the same stuff. A lot of humans are going through. He wants to be there. He doesn't want to be there. He likes it.

but he does but he's disillusioned with it he wants to take his his kids away from there i don't know just to hear somebody that i have you know i have followed jermaine jones for some time i still sometimes think about that goal he scored against portugal i love the way some of the things about the way he played and you know he to me he's an interesting guy and the fact that grant got got him on the record saying a bunch of interesting stuff to me that's useful journalism Does it like advance a cause or figure, you know, force an issue? No, but I don't think that should be the journalist's job, you know. Maybe that should be the pundits job.

But the, when I say journalist, I mean reporter. But the reporter's job is just to tell people stuff they didn't know and be interesting. And I will say before I admire a little rant here. I think as you know, as somebody who's been accused of different agendas, you know, sometimes I'm accused of opposite agendas simultaneously. That has happened to me many times in my career by both sides of an issue. I think that is a, that is something every reporter basically gets accused of, is having an agenda. But I also think that like penetrating journalism that really elucidates a subject or really like open something up is, requires not just, not just good intention, but real talent, like real talent that is, I think,

underappreciated. Like to really get, to really produce a good piece of journalism requires a lot of talent. And, you know, soccer's a small enough, I think it's still a small enough spectator sport in this country that there is not, say, the level of talent, let's just take an extreme example of the level of talent covering soccer that is covering the white house you know what i mean and um that's uh if if if like when i find myself critical of a story or of a of something more often than not i'm just like you know what that guy is not that talented like he couldn't he couldn't pull it off and uh so that's my that's like my perspective on it and that's and to a certain

extent that's exactly how i feel about grant's piece about jermaine jones is that if If that was any other field, you know, if that was about a football player or if that was American politics or something like that, like that, wouldn't have been like that shocking of a thing. But because, you know, anything halfway decent is so rare and hard to come by in American soccer, that that did that, you know, the few quotes that came out of that piece from Grant made some pretty big waves in American soccer. It got a lot of people to raise their eyebrows.

And I think that that is not necessarily. a credit or a discredit maybe to grant it's more of just like an overall just kind of systemic issue in American soccer media. It's just, yeah, like you said, we don't have hard hitting, great piece producing type journalists that are putting out, you know, piece after piece after piece week after week after week. And so when we get these things like grant produced, and there's been numerous other ones by other people too.

You know, they're few and far between, though. And the majority of stuff that we get is boring. It's flavorless. Yeah, to me, this is where I think of it is just reporting. It's just like, you know, the score was three to two. And here was the goal score. And this is the minute it was like that's what a lot of American soccer media is to me.

And the regurgitation of that. Yeah, sort of like scoops about transfers and stuff like that, which is good. I mean, which is useful. I mean, we all want to know where the player is going next and stuff. But I think my sense is the athletic has raised the game. I think I'm not saying they're perfect or anything, but I think the quality of their stuff is, I mean, it's better to have it than to not have it. That's for sure. and my view is grant grants got a lot of access you know he because he's such a big deal he's got

you know the 500,000 followers on Twitter and he works for Sports Illustrated so he's like a big deal quote unquote and he has access to like people that say I don't have access to but I don't think he's like nearly as skilled of a reporter and writer as say Brian Strauss who was kind of on hiatus there for Sports Illustrated for a while I think of all the sort of reporters in the landscape is the one who actually is talented. You know what I'm saying? That's my opinion. It's not a question.

No, I completely agree. And it goes, I think Grant has made great out of, you know, his situation. I think that, you know, a lot of people don't know his history and I don't know it to a T either. But, you know, he was at Princeton the same time that Bob Bradley was at Princeton and he was a sports writer for the paper, not necessarily a soft. soccer guy, but a sports guy. And he made the best of his situation. He was in Bob's office all the time. He learned a lot about soccer. He asked the right questions of the guy that, you know, ultimately became the national team coach. And, and, you know, I don't know, I'm not going to speculate and say that, you know, that's the reason why doors open for him. But he's taken full

advantage of his situation and, you know, the opportunities that he's had in front of him and gotten to where he is. I personally like the style of like a soccer America. I like what Paul and I like what Mike Waitala. I like what those guys do with the topic that they cover them and the way that they cover them. Yeah. What type of questions that, and the types of questions that they ask too. Like those guys are not beholden to anybody. They're their own thing.

And I think that that is a big piece of the puzzle, too, is that there isn't a lot of independent media members. I think I mentioned a little bit ago, you know, a lot of the beat writers. and whatever, you know, they also write for MLS Soccer.com, you know, even if they write for the Washington Post, they still write for MLS. So maybe they'll hold back a little bit that maybe, I don't know. I don't know what it is, but I know that Mike and Paul, like those guys are relentless and they ask, they ask very tough questions and I really enjoy what they write. I really enjoy how they cover things like racism in soccer, the, the, the, the

pay and equity. I think they cover it for more of a genuine stance. I think these guys are genuinely interested and genuinely believe in these topics more so than Grant, for example. Yeah. And I do agree that Brian's writing is also very good. But I don't know if he covers the topics that I'm necessarily interested in with the same type of conviction that I'm looking for out of somebody.

I can understand that. Yeah. I mean, Grant, one thing you got to say for Grant Wallace, he's a hard worker. He does produce a lot of content. So I'll give him that. Yeah. And one thing I like about just to agree with you a little bit about Soccer America is they, they treat soccer not so much as just like a pro sport.

I think which is the key distinction there. They treat it as like a full holistic cultural phenomenon. and that totally comes out in the way they, what they cover and the questions they ask. And I think it's, I agree with you. They're a treasure. And that's exactly what, that's exactly what it is, though, Adam, is that those guys see the game very similarly to how I see the game is that it's more than just sport. It's social. It's political.

It's economic. It's cultural. Like, those guys see it from all those different angles. And that's how they choose to cover the game. And that's how they ask questions. that's how they choose topics to cover and and and so that resonates with me uh rather than you know somebody like alexi who just you know hey you know we lost four zero to whoever like here's my here's my rant on on this and that it's like there's no there's no sincereness to

that to me and i i kind of see through that you know you got to you got to do yourself a favor and stop listening to alexie lalexia no i did a long time again yeah okay i did a long time go. Let me. To an extent because you also have to, you also have to know what these people are saying a lot of times. Like you have, like if you, if you're not in tune with, with what they're, with their message that they're pumping out there, then you're, you're actually doing your, your, your people

at this service too. Because you don't, you know, it's just important to know what the competition is up to, I guess. I consider them competition. I, I, I guess so. Yeah. I mean, I feel like if he ever says anything of substance, I generally hear about it, some way or another.

Exactly. I got to go here pretty soon, but let me ask you, let's just, let's get off the big topics and get onto a small one, if you don't mind. What, what, who would you put on your U.S. men's national team starting 11 right now, roughly? Oof. Yeah, big, big games coming up, huh? Let's see.

I mean, sort of big games, not that big. It's tough, man. I'm not particularly stoked about any of the centerbacks that we have right now. So or goalkeepers. Choose the least bad option, John. That's just, that's what you'd have to do if you were the coach. Yeah. Yeah, I like one of your guys' most recent episodes or you guys said that you guys aren't even

talk about goalkeepers because that's the stance that we've had it for a long time, too. It just messes everything up. I'm not too worried about, yeah. I mean, realistically, you know, if healthy, it would probably be Stefan, you know, placeholder until I think, you know, a guy like, I would love to see a guy like David Ochoa rise in the next, you know, two years or so and claim that spot. I'm a big fan of his. I know that you've highlighted, too, like his attitude and his slavery, you know, little handwaves and his little, you know, head moves to the referee or to the opponents and things like that. Like, I'm a fan of that type of stuff. Plus, he's a phenomenal goalkeeper.

So I'd love to see somebody like that take the spot other than, you know, some players that are more robotic. Yeah. So, but yeah, if it realistically, at the moment, maybe maybe be Stefan. Okay. Stefan and Goal, Choa for the future. Yeah. Centerbacks right now, you know, like I said, I'm not, I'm not particularly stoked on,

on anybody if I'm being realistic about who Burrhalter. has it as disposal plus who he's called in over the last 12 months or so I think ideally it would probably be Brooks and Long. I hate doing these roster predictions, by the way.

I love that you hate doing it and still have to do it. Yeah. Let's see. Right back. I know you guys are super high on Reggie Cannon at right back. I like Sergenio Dest at right back, though.

I think if we're doing it. a disservice to play him on the left. I know a lot of people, you know, you see like those little rosters floating around the line. I'm sympathetic to that. A lot of people have him. Say it again. I'm sympathetic to that view.

I do think it might be a disservice to play him on the left. So. Yeah. No, I think so, I think so, too. I think that you, I mean, you saw tab play desk at right back, you know, during the most recent U20 World Cup. And that seemed to be, you know, a good fit for him. him, you pair him with somebody like a healthy Polistic maybe in front of him in this next

run up in March, I run out in March. I think that's a pretty exciting combination. I think that's a pretty lethal combination. And that kind of preface is like what I want to see in the future on the left as well, which would be something like super exciting to me, which would be Kobe Hernandez and Oliana's on the left side. So if you have Dest and Pulisic on the right and somebody like a pairing like Kobe and Ouli on the left, like that's something I'm genuinely excited about. Yeah. I'd be genuinely excited about that. And yeah, so I think, you know, why, and this is the same conversation that me and Joey

were having for much of the U-17 World Cup is that if Kobe Hernandez is your eventual starting left back for the U.S. men's national team, why are you wasting his time training him at left centerback. Are you wasting his game time at left center back? So if Sergenio Odess, long term, projects as the best right back for the American, or the U.S. men's national team, why play him on the left at this time? Play him on the right. I hear you. I hear you. So, so if we've got, if that, if that means Reggie Cannon, if that means Reggie Cannon has to take a break, or if he has to, if he has to watch somebody that's better than him take the field, I'm okay with that.

certainly greater tragedies have occurred than Reggie taking a break. So, um, Kobe, yeah, I agree with you about Kobe playing left centerback at the U-17 World Cup. It didn't make a lot of sense. I was kind of okay with it because I thought it was like going to, just going to be the reality. And I don't know, maybe whoever would have stepped in at left centerback would have been a total disaster. But it didn't, it sure didn't work out, did it? Adam, a lot of people maybe don't know this about Kobe and I don't think Joey and I did did a good job at all of maybe highlighting why he is, you know, it was so important that he plays, you know, left back instead of left centerback is that when, you know, through his entire youth career, he was a badass forward. He was a badass attacking player.

And so he has like those attacking tendencies and he has those that attack, that attack brain ingrained in him already and, and playing. them as a left bat gives him another way to attack the opponent, right? But when you put him at centerback, then you're completely hamstringing. Like, he cannot do anything at all attack-wise other than those phenomenal long balls that he's able to play. But that's not even, you know, that's not even the best part about his game. And so, you know, that's when you think about like a Danny Alves or a Marcello or something like that, imagine playing like somebody with that type of player, that type of capability.

and putting them at center back. Like that was the type of tragedy that I think kind of happened at the U-17 World Cup and hopefully does not continue to happen as the kid gets older and older. But, you know, that's why. It won't continue to happen. It won't continue. No way. No way that continues to happen. But I don't know if people understood that, you know, like those attacking qualities,

you know, that's where he got him from as, you know, an early youth player. You know, he was an attacking player. And that is his background, is to be a freaking killer in the attack. And playing at left back is, you know, a way for him to express that in a different way. So I think that's really important for people to know. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, Kobe's not really playing anywhere at the moment that we know of.

I'm not asking you to give me any inside information on that. But like, who would you put at left back in March for the U.S. men's national team? Kobe? Do I think that he could actually do it? I think so. I think a lot of people were surprised by what Uli did in the most recent friendly. It's friendly against Costa Rica. I understand people are going to bring that up as well.

It's a pretty solid Costa Rica team. Yeah. But I think people would be surprised at what a lot of these young players are capable of if they were thrown into the mix. I don't think Kobe would be completely in over his head. if you threw them out there in friendlies in March, but if I'm thinking realistically, it's not going to happen. So more realistic is probably something along the lines of what,

what you guys are talking about on your podcast, which is probably Sergenio on the left and Reggie Cannon on the right. So I think the way that, you know, the last friendlies and things have gone, I think that that's pretty realistic. And I think on one of my recent podcasts, too, I actually pointed out a moment where Reggie Cannon did something that I, that I was a big,

fan of. He stayed super wide at one point, and he was calling for the ball. He was wide open, had nothing but space in front of him going down the line. I think he started in his own defensive half, puts his arm out to show where he wants the ball, which is like right in front of him. And unfortunately, Brennan Aronson played like a bomb into the box in Regan ended up having to do a 50-yard sprint against a Costa Rican player to go trying to track it down. So I think paired with the right people, yeah. But I think paired with the right people, I think, you know, a play like Reggie and then yeah on the other side on the other side desk I think that gets us through March no problem okay how about in the middle of field paired with the right people

who's hurt this week well I guess let's just assume everybody's healthy by March yeah yeah which is not going to happen but yeah I mean you have I mean I could do my my hopeful or I could do my realistic one so I'll give you probably a more realistic one I think people are really longing for a healthy midfield of you know Tyler Adams at a six and Weston McKinney at an eight I think we've seen a lot of those guys before I'm not particularly stoked on those guys but I I do think it's realistic that we will continue to see them you know more in the future so I think realistic basically if those guys are healthy, that's what we'll see. I think the 10 is a pretty interesting

spot. I don't know where Burrhalter projects to play Christian in the future. A lot of people are saying now with the rise of geo, with the introduction of Uli, you know, maybe those two guys occupy the winger spots and then Christian moves it to the 10. I'm not a huge fan of that. I think I I said earlier that I would be a big fan of Dest on the right, Pulisick on the right, Oolie on the left with Kobe on the left. So I think, you know, long term, I think that's what that needs to be. So I'd be a little bummed if Christian Polistic gets put in that role of kind of floating around between a bunch of different spots.

I think that's a disservice to him. I think he's a phenomenal winger. And I hope that's where he gets to play. So the 10 up in the air, maybe somebody like Legad or something like that. I'm not a huge fan of Sebastian, but I'm also like, I would, I would rather have him over a lot of other people. Yeah. Yeah, I sort of, I basically agree with that. It's really interesting to hear you talk about this, John, because you don't often do that, right?

So I think this is, I don't. I do much. This is a great privilege for the scuff podcast. And who's your striker? Who's your striker? Yeah, so that's another interesting one, right? Like I did like what I saw at a Ferrera, but again, I think that that was more of like an experiment. I don't know if that's where he projects long term.

So I don't know if that's where Burrhalter wants to be playing him. Sergeant not having a great season. And I wasn't too high on Sergeant to begin with. I haven't really been high on him for a few years. I know a lot of people were. I'm not a Jockey fan whatsoever. Yeah, yeah. but yeah, I even, I even remember tweeting at one point, like, what's going to happen when

Josh Sargent doesn't turn out to be the world past strike everyone's claiming them to be? Did you get in the last time? Oh, you can't be. Yeah, something similar. I think with that too tall guy just called out somebody in one of your threads for it. It's like, what, we can't be excited about people that are scoring goals. We can't be excited about this or that. You guys can be excited about whatever you want to be realistic about it.

Because, you know, everybody that scores a goal in a European league. is not world class. Everybody that makes an assist is not a world beater. So it's just keeping things in perspective. And so I try my best to do that. And obviously, I think very highly of certain players. And so people will see that from me and be like, well, look at you doing this now. It's like, well, yeah, but I really believe in those guys.

So, yeah, so that's kind of that. You got to pick. I mean, to a certain extent, as a human being, you got to sort of pick who you rate and I don't know, people who say, well, you rate, you favor some players or you stand some players. I don't have much interest in that whole discussion because, like, you know, we're human beings with finite attention spans. I almost tweeted the other day. If a hype train leaves New York City at the same time as a hype train leaves Dallas, what train do Andrew Carlton fans get on?

And I almost tweeted that and I was like, eh, maybe not that. right time. Which everyone passes through Indianapolis. Which everyone passes to Indianapolis. To answer your question, I think I realistically will see somebody like Jossi or Josh.

But there's a lot of guys in the pipeline that are something to kind of be excited about. I'm a little bum that we haven't seen Soto breakthrough. I was a big fan of him. And I still think that there's a chance for him to break through somewhere. He's out of tough. I like what he brings.

a tough year or tough eight months yeah yeah he has um but i mean and we'll see we'll see where he goes where he ends up uh could be could be good for him long term we'll see um but yeah i think realistically right now just based on you know last year's rosters and and everything i think somebody like josh or or jossie's going to be in there so i had to choose between those two i would go josh with maybe ferrero coming off the bench okay i got a run I'm sure you do too. John, thanks so much. Hobble, you got a hobble somewhere.

Thanks for your time. Say hi to say hi to the team, and good luck to you with your surgery. Yep, thank you.