Sea Control - Sea Control 234 - Maritime Sri Lanka with Dr. Chulanee Attanayake and Dr. Jivanta Schӧttli

Episode Date: March 21, 2021

Links1. Maritime Sri Lanka: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives, by Chulanee Attanayake (editor), World Scientific Publishing Company, January 29, 2021.

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So if you want to listen to that episode, it's posted correctly on our current feed. Head over there, check it out. Thanks for your patience as we cleaned up the last remnants of our site migration. Okay, so for this week, we brought in the editor, Chulani Atanayake, and Jibanta Shutley to discuss the book Maritime Sri Lanka Historical and Contemporary Perspectives. There's a link for it in the show notes. If you can, I recommend go check it out at your local library. There are a number of good chapters there. We're hoping to have a few of the other authors on as well. As always, I want to thank those who have donated to SimSec, whether during our Right Fight

Win holiday campaign or afterwards. If you haven't donated yet and you'd like to, you can still donate on the website or add us as your preferred non-profit on Amazon Smile so you can support us while you shop. Finally, I want to take the opportunity to recommend our partners in the SimSec Podcast Network, The Bilge Pumps. You can find Alex, Jamie, Drack, and a pile of Iron Brew bottles wherever you download your podcasts. And on that note, I'll turn it over to Kimber's men. You're listening to Sea Control, hosted by the Center for International Maritime Aloha Shoemates and welcome back aboard Sea Control. I am joined this week by Dr. Chulani Atanayaka, editor of the new book Maritime Sri Lanka and one of the chapter authors,

Dr. Jeevanta Shotli. Ladies, thank you so much for joining us. Chulani, I'd like to start with you and ask you to tell us a little bit about your background, please. Thank you for the invitation to take part in this podcast, Jared. It's a pleasure. So I'm a researcher at the Institute of South Asian Studies at the National University of Singapore. And I'm from Sri Lanka and currently the only Sri Lankan scholar at ISAS. Prior to joining the ISAS, I have worked in Sri Lanka's think tanks such as Katha Gram Institute and Institute of National Security Studies at different capacities. I obtained my PhD from Central China Normal University in Wuhan. My research focus is mainly on China's statecraft and policies in South Asia,

Indian Ocean geopolitics, and Sri Lanka's foreign policy and domestic politics. Well, thank you again so much for joining us. And then Jeevanta, would you mind telling the listeners a little bit about yourself, please? Sure. And thanks also for having me on board and for this invitation. And it's great to see my colleague as well, Shulani. So I moved to Dublin about two years ago to take up a tenure track academic position in Indian politics and foreign policy at Dublin City University in Ireland. And before that, I was at the National University of Singapore at the same institution as Shulani. And prior to that, I was teaching at Heidelberg University in Germany, where I also did my PhD. So funnily enough, each of those

locations, Ireland, Singapore, Germany, all have their sort of interesting maritime perspective. And that's been a sort of angle that's also shaped my research along the way. So I tend to get shaped by my locations, it seems. My education has been quite eclectic. I did economic history and international relations at the London School of Economics and then political science at Heidelberg University. So anyway, this locational dislocation, perhaps, and the eclectic education is really what frames my research. Thank you so much. Shalani, then I'm going to come back to you

for the first question. You're the editor of Maritime Sri Lanka. You also wrote Chapter 9, Power Struggle in the Indian Ocean, Perspective from Sri Lanka, which we'll get into in a minute. What were you hoping to achieve with this edited volume? So this volume has its origin in a workshop

I organized at ISAS titled Maritime Sri Lanka Reclaiming the Indian Ocean Identity. For the past decade or so, Sri Lanka is highlighting its identity as a maritime nation. Even though Sri Lanka is an island nation, for a period of time, it was focusing on its South Asian identity, I would say. But since the end of the war in 2009, there is a refocus on maritime identity. respective governments have been talking about reviving maritime identity making it a hub in the Indian Ocean and focusing on blue economy etc etc. In 2017 then Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister used the word of reclaiming the maritime identity for the first time

so this workshop was organized to understand what does reclamation means for Sri Lanka how Sri Lanka is going to do it and how Sri Lanka is going to position itself in the growing geopolitical changes in the Indian Ocean region. There were very interesting papers presented at the workshop so I thought this would be an important addition to the literature on Sri Lanka's maritime relationship and maritime history. So as you have already seen in the book there are variety of perspectives presented here and there are some new perspectives also and some unknown factors for instance this chapter on French invasion of the Trincomalee harbour it's not something that is well known or something that has been talked much in Sri Lanka's colonial history

and then the chapter on how Indian ocean environment can be used as a geopolitical tool is also not something discussed often. So I think this volume will highlight certain aspects that are in discussion, and also will bring some new perspectives. Thanks, Dao. You started with the statement, today the Indian Ocean is undoubtedly the most active and sought after ocean. What do you think that that's the case, especially when you consider everything that's happening in the Pacific and around the South China Sea? So Indian Ocean was relatively a quiet geographic space for a long period of time, I think. As you rightly pointed out, all the action has been happening in the Pacific for a long period of time.

Indian Ocean is a historical ocean space, yet it has not been the center of geopolitics or security in the contemporary era. Since the beginning of the 21st century, however, this has changed. There are a couple of reasons in my observation. Firstly, the growth is shifting from the east to the west, and China is at the center of this growth. In the meantime, India is also growing faster behind China. And all these countries, not just India and China, they are dependent on the raw material and resources coming from Africa and the Middle East. So all these raw materials and resources travel through the Indian Ocean. So this makes the Indian Ocean one of the important sea lanes of communication in global trade. The Indian Ocean is also characterized by narrow chalk points, which make the sea lanes vulnerable. Secondly, the Indian Ocean is rich in unexplored resources and natural grass. As the unrenewable resources are depleting rapidly in the rest of the world,

I think Indian Ocean is becoming an important space for every country because of its natural resource. The third thing I think is because it's highly susceptible for different security threats, including piracy and maritime terrorism. It is also vulnerable for natural disasters. All these factors, including the importance of sea lanes of communication, put Indian Ocean at the center of the 21st century geopolitics and china is a relatively a new entrant to the this indian ocean space so um definitely china is vulnerable because of the ceilings of communication and as we already know by now china has come to stay it's not going to even though it's it has been active in the pacific and that area for a long period of time so with beijing's entrance

power dynamics have changed. And these are contributing to the fact that to make Indian Ocean the most sought after ocean space in the world. Thank you. Jibanta, I'm going to come to you now. How would you describe Sri Lanka's geostrategic position? Well, I suppose on that Shulani is the person to ask, but I'll take advantage of the first mover advantage here to say that I think Sri Lanka has an enviable geostrategic position. I mean, it's located literally at the center of the Indian Ocean. It sits astride the main shipping lines of the global economy connecting east and west. It's also, it can position itself as the gateway to South Asia. So in so many ways, that's extremely enviable. And I think Sri Lanka has the rich, deep history

of being this center for maritime trade through ancient times. And there's all sorts of archaeological evidence that supports that. And I think continuously new archaeological evidence coming to light, I read about the oldest, not cardamom, but what was it, Shrilani? Cinnamon, the oldest in the world were discovered in archaeological sites, proving yet more deeply how integrated Sri Lanka was in ancient trade systems. But, you know, so the government itself, as Shrilani has said, is positioning and envisioning Sri Lanka as a modern 21st century hub, building on its huge transit shipment capabilities, and also to position it as a financial hub, I believe, in the region. So, I mean, that vision and ambition is thanks to the elite, of course,

but I think also because the economy has been relatively open, and I think especially compared to other South Asian economies, it's been exceptionally open. So, they have that human capital, they have the infrastructure to build upon. Now, the caveat in all of this is wonderful location, but the proximity to India is a fascinating, complicating factor. And it's incredible proximity to India. So I was just looking up the numbers. I mean, at the narrowest point in the Polk Straits, which separate the two countries, it's just 54 kilometers wide. So that's narrower than the English Channel. And we know the problems Britain has with Europe, separated by that channel. So we have deep historical cultural connectivity between India

in Sri Lanka. And this has brought with it also huge problems that maybe we'll get to talk about. So anyway, I think, of course, Sri Lanka has an absolute, has great assets and a rightful bid to capitalize on this very favorable geostrategic position. But it does bring with it challenges then for India because of that proximity and also how Sri Lanka's engagement with the world affects India's relative geostrategic position in the Indian Ocean. Thank you. You hinted at a little bit of this in your last answer, but what are Sri Lanka's particular challenges as an island state? So I suppose like all states, there is the essential dilemma of how do you preserve and protect your sovereignty while enhancing your prosperity? But perhaps for island states, that dilemma is even more acute and stark, primarily because simply being devoid of that hinterland, which you can fall back upon and through which you can act as a buffer during times of shocks or internal political instability.

So, I mean, I think everything gets much more concentrated in an island state. And as I mentioned, Sri Lanka, but also the two other islands that I looked at for this piece, they're all rather open economies. so they've wanted to attract investments they've realized the need to grow their economies through engaging with the global economy and that's worked pretty well for them maybe especially over the last 20-30 years as Sholani said while the Indian Ocean was sort of calm waters but the question is going to be now in this more heated geopolitical competitive environment how is that going to impact their domestic politics and I think again for Ireland states that effect of external geopolitics and internal domestic politics can get perhaps more amplified than when you talk about large continental systems. I mean, then there are the obvious problems of maritime security that get

again, amplified for island states dealing with piracy, human smuggling, arms, narcotics trafficking. And again, from my little knowledge of Sri Lanka, it seems Sri Lanka has developed quite an incredible expertise in dealing with all these very specific kinds of maritime security problems. So how does Sri Lanka leverage that knowledge and that expertise to create a favorable strategic environment for itself, while at the same time protecting its resources? I'm sure it'll come up later on in the discussion. Sri Lanka is not a small island developing state, so it doesn't really compare one to one. But nevertheless, I think the problems of environment, problems of dealing with geopolitics are the ones. And specifically, how do you embed yourself

while retaining autonomy in a regional security system? And again, the India factor comes into that. Thank you. I'm going to come back to you on the next round of these questions when we discuss India. But Chulani, I'm going to ask, so you've identified the three competing powers in the region, the US, India, China, and India. I'd like to discuss how Sri Lanka views the three of What are those countries doing to seek influence in Sri Lanka and how does Sri Lanka balance those relationships? And we'll start with India then, Jelani. What has been Sri Lanka's historic relationship with India? Yeah, I think as Jeevantha also pointed out, India is Sri Lanka's closest neighbor. It is only divided by a very narrow sea lane.

and the relationship between India and Sri Lanka is more than 2500 years old as long as Sri Lanka civilization and both countries have a legacy of intellectual, cultural, religious and linguistic interactions. According to traditional Sri Lankan chronicles such as Mahavansha or Deepavansha, Buddhism was introduced into Sri Lanka in the 4th century BC by Venerable Mahinda who was the son of Indian Emperor Ashoka during the Sri Lankan King Devanam Pethis' time period. This formed Sri Lanka's cultural identity. Basically, it put the foundation for Sri Lanka's cultural identity. Similarly, Sri Lanka also has faced numerous security threats because of its close proximity,

even during the historical times. There have been numerous occasions where Indian kings invaded Sri Lanka. For instance, in 1070, Sri Lanka was invaded by a Chola king and Sri Lanka's historical kingdom of Andhra had to be moved to Polonnaru. Then there were another invasion in the Polonnaru era. There were continuous invasions from time to time until the British colonized, not the British, the Portuguese colonized Sri Lanka for the first time. So because of that, Sri Lanka has a complicated relationship with India.

And as Jeevanta highlighted over and over again, this makes Sri Lanka's relationship and also the modern factors make Sri Lanka's relationship with India complex. affecting for the for how it views the world and how sri lanka forms its relationship with the rest of the world thank you uh jivanta i'm going to ask you this next question then if you want to punt and send it back to chalani that's fine too but how does uh sri lanka view india now how does sri lanka view india i mean from my reading of very current uh issues it seems a bit unstable you know to put it mildly I mean it seems both sides India and Sri Lanka have recognized the importance of the other and also the need to be careful and respectful of

the complications in the relationship so I think after the recent elections in Sri Lanka and also the way the government in India has honed its policy towards Sri Lanka shows this maturity is there, because in the past, perhaps it was a much more political, politicized and knee-jerk sort of mechanism in the relationship. So I think there is a pragmatism and a willingness to invest long-term in the relationship. However, there are issues that continuously flare up. So on granting investment rights to India recently with regards to the development of the eastern shipment container zone if i get it correctly in colombo again has become a bit of a hot potato so i guess the problem is always for india having to restrain itself as the bigger actor and yet

conveying also its displeasure at times in in a diplomatic way but i i think that on both sides and and i hope shalani will correct me if i'm wrong there is a mutual appreciation and recognition of the need to treat this relationship carefully and to invest in it, you know, for the long haul and not to let these political issues escalate too much, because they can be manipulated also by interested parties inside as well as outside. So I think there is that recognition. Thank you. And Shulani, what is India doing to gain influence with Sri Lanka? Well, India has been directly intervening in gaining influence for a longer period of time. Since China's entrance into the country, I think it's more in the direction of making competitive infrastructure investments.

So as Jeevanta mentioned, Sri Lanka and India have appreciated each other's relationship and India is Sri Lanka's top trading partner. India is among the top development partners, but China's entrance has made India to increase its engagement in numerous ways. It is engaging in, say, for instance, building houses in the north and the east and even in the central areas or in other kinds of projects. And for the first time, India is showing an interest in investing in port industry in the country. This has not happened before. To tell you some bits of the very recent histories with regard to ports, the Hambantara port, which everybody knows now, was first offered to India to develop. But India did not take up the opportunity.

perhaps India thought it does not have any viable economic value. Now that China has entered and China is operating one terminal in the Colombo port and it is operating a full port in Hambantota, it is showing great interest in getting into the Colombo port's investment. That's what Jeevantha mentioned about the east container terminal. So I would say in the recent years, the way that earlier it was more about politicizing issues, certain issues or getting directly involved in domestic matters, for instance, say the ethnic conflict in the country. There were numerous occasions where India directly involved and intervened. But now India is more cautious and it is trying to counter Chinese investments by providing an alternative for Sri Lanka, showing that we are there. If you want investments, we are also ready to provide. Thank you. And we're going to talk about the Chinese now then. What's the Sri Lankan-Chinese

relationship been like? And then how does Sri Lanka view China now? Sri Lanka's historical ties with China goes back to maritime Silk Road era. So Sri Lanka has been a stopover for the travelers crossing the Indian Ocean for centuries. And China and Sri Lanka shares Buddhist ties as well so relatively the relationship has been always cordial and friendly in the recent years i would say for the past decade and a half mostly sri lanka views china as an economic partner and a developing partner so let me explain a bit on the time when china first came to sri lanka china's entry into the indian ocean region happened at a time when sri lanka was fighting the war with the LTTE. And security in the Indian Ocean, as I explained earlier, is one of the key

factors for China. So I think Beijing saw a common interest in defeating maritime terrorism in the region, and they saw LTTE as a reason for the increased maritime terrorism. So it provided the weaponry and support, diplomatic support during the war. In the meantime, it started providing funding for developing infrastructure in the country. Now, this is the same period China gained the entrance to the WTO and it's expanded and increased its outreach to the rest of the world. So I think these are coincidental in one partly, but China obviously saw a strategic opportunity in Sri Lanka because of its location. So at the moment, China is Sri Lanka's second largest trading partner and the top developing partner.

Thank you. And then the final actor we're going to talk about then is the U.S. And how would you describe Sri Lanka's relationship with the U.S.? Sri Lanka and the United States relationship has been based on democratic principles and trade mainly even though sri lanka is importing a lot from china in india its main export market is in the united states and it does not share similar historic ties but there is again a buddhist link with the united states as well because it was sir henry steel orcutt who played who revived and protected buddhism in sri lanka during the colonial period of time And at the moment, again, I would say the relationship between United States and Sri Lanka is little complex. And the kind of relationship Sri Lanka has with the US changes is parallel to the party who is in power in Sri Lanka.

Usually when the United National Party is in power, Sri Lanka has very strong ties with the United States. When the other party is in power, it's not the same. Right now, there is a change in the government in both the United States and Sri Lanka. So how this partnership is going to play out, we have to wait and see. Thanks. So, Javanta, do you have anything to add on either of those other two actors, China or the U.S.? I'm always fascinated by the Cold War sort of history or prehistory to all of the current developments. And again, my angle is more from India's perspective. Sri Lanka, from my little knowledge, again, has had quite a proactive foreign policy, also during the Cold War period.

so it has a certain expertise of dealing with the great powers that perhaps some of the other south asian countries well let's say barring pakistan which is a different uh region and kettle of fish altogether so so that that that's kind of interesting to think about the baggage that comes both from the u.s perspective and sri lanka's perspective and also india is overcoming that whole baggage of the cold war and i think that still hangs over South Asia quite, quite deeply. And I think that's an area still to be closely examined. And totally, the whole entrance of China is shaking all that up in very dramatic ways. Thank you. Shulani, then back to you. How does Sri Lanka balance these relationships? And what

is its long term strategy? I think, as Jeevantha said, Sri Lanka has some expertise or experience in balancing the relationship in the middle of a power struggle. During the Cold War period, it experienced something similar. So, for instance, I think what Sri Lanka did at that time was using multilateral platforms to speak up about its concerns, like promoting Indian Ocean as a zone of peace. I don't know to what extent that we can actually do it right now, But Sri Lanka still uses multilateral platforms like Indian Ocean Regional Association and so on and so forth to raise the concerns of small states within a power struggle.

However, to me, what is more fascinating is the way Sri Lanka uses the strategy, what we call a strategic hedging. It uses its all, like it puts its bets in all places. It's keeping its options open. Sometimes it's play the players one against the other. and sometimes it engages with all three when and where necessary so it is keeping its options open to realize its own interest and i think this is a very pragmatic policy for a small country like sri lanka president gotabe rajapaksha after he became after his election said that his

government's foreign policy would be neutral and it will be friends with all so i assume it's something similar to strategic hedging. And so this government's policy will be similar to what has been followed in the previous governments as well, keeping its options open and making bets where necessary to realize its own interests. Thank you. So what has been the effect then on the ground of all those external interests in Sri Lanka, it seems like that there's a lot of investment happening, infrastructural investment. Is there a construction boom going on when you go to visit? Yes, you're correct. I mean, there is a major construction boom in the country. So there is no doubt that Sri Lanka need these

investments for infrastructure development. For 30 years, Sri Lanka fought a war which which pulled its development far back for several decades. And also, many infrastructure was destroyed, damaged, or abandoned due to the war. So now the government wants to improve infrastructure because if it wants to become a hub in the Indian Ocean, it needs this infrastructure to attract foreign direct investments to the country. And especially China and India are showing great interest in investing in the country. So because of that, we see that there is a competition between the two countries and Sri Lanka using this competition to its advantage.

We see a lot of constructions of expressways, railroads, real estate and so on and so forth. Thank you. Does the Sri Lankan military have active relationships with the U.S., China or India? i would say with india it has had a very it still has a very strong relationship for a long period of time sri lanka's military even gets training in india and it has bilateral military exercises from time to time like mitra shakti which happened in 2019 china with china sri lanka mostly buy weapons so they it's mostly a military weapon supplier for sri lanka with the united states again there has been there was no very strong ties until recently but since 2017 also we see great involvement and engagement between the navies of the two countries sri lanka even

participated at the rimpak exercise into 2018 for the first time thanks then javanta we're going to come to you for this last series of questions. You elected to use Mauritius and Seychelles as examples of possible options for what Sri Lanka could do in the future. And that was the sort of the topic for the chapter that you wrote about. Why did you choose those two countries? Yes. As mentioned in the paper, they are not directly comparable in terms of size. And although Mauritius and Seychelles belong officially to this group of the small island developing states, Sri Lanka I think has only acted sometimes as a participant in their meetings but nevertheless I found I think I was researching them for something else for another project and I found

it quite fascinating how these rather tiny players have developed first of all quite innovative strategies and maybe particularly in the case of Seychelles they've also developed quite a a big profile in international institutions so for example and again I believe it's one of the only cases of a joint submission to the United Nations to extend a kind of jointly defined exclusive economic area or zone and they were successful in doing that it took quite a long period of time and careful coordination I think bilateral relations have generally been good I I mean, that region is also connected with a shared past colonial history, which has its own complications. So, again, it had to be done carefully and was successfully done.

And they also have a mechanism to manage that joint economic zone. So it began to just occur to me whether in South Asia anything similar could possibly develop. And I haven't properly looked at the geographical, geological dimensions of this. But say between Sri Lanka and the Maldives, might there be any overlapping zones of joint management? And then, of course, with India being involved in India is involved in a sort of trilateral involving those three. So how successful or how unsuccessful that has been compared to other regions, say, like this part of the Indian Ocean with the Mauritius and the Seychelles. and then the other aspect being how they've and again I think Seychelles has been the more successful case how to build on their expertise that they've generated and to showcase that to

the world and also to leverage that experience so I've been reading how important Seychelles managed to position how importantly Seychelles managed to position itself in the fight against piracy with regards to Somalia with all the international presence in that region and Seychelles was quite clever in positioning itself so again using and also then taking the chance to learn through these international engagements so again I think directly transposing it to the South Asian context is not possible because the the geography is so different and India really has this overwhelming peninsular presence, which wouldn't tolerate the same kind of international interactions as I just spoke about. But there could be parallels. And then the other, of course,

sort of, again, parallel connecting factor was the diasporic role. I mean, India's diaspora stretches across the Indian Ocean and also into these specific countries. I mean, Mauritius has a very well-established active Indian origin population. In the Seychelles, it's quite interesting that recently the last elections produced for the first time an Indian origin opposition leader. So how, I mean, they don't make much of their Indian origins, but still India makes quite a bit out of it. And again, how India is managing that diasporic soft power value factor in the region, I thought might be an interesting thing to look at. And then like Shalani was talking about this hedging strategy, which Mauritius and the Seychelles are also having to play.

Again, China is a major factor in their calculations, a major presence. And I think both of those countries are positioning themselves also not necessarily as hubs, but as gateways to Africa. So they're also very keenly advertising that and then attracting attention, which then has to be carefully managed. thanks and you i don't know you may have given us the answer to this with your last question but is sri lanka have a natural partner in the way that you suggest it sounds like maybe maldives but it's not really a direct parallel i mean the maldives is has its own problems and its own capacity issues so i mean on on a very specific issue perhaps there could be a partnership which again would need fostering and um i think would need the support of a third party which potentially

india india could play now because of my bias i suppose i would argue that india is the natural partner for sri lanka recognizing and notwithstanding all the geographical and historical problems i think i think the natural partnership is now even more evident than in the past because there is this recognition on both sides of the value that each other plays in the bigger picture so of course Sri Lanka wants to use its strategic hedging strategy but it can't get away from its geographical location so it to alienate or antagonize India and similarly if similarly if India really wants to play the role on it is already to a large extent playing the role and then it can benefit enormously from the expertise of Sri Lanka and coordination with Sri Lanka.

And I suppose issues of natural disasters, humanitarian disasters are problematic in the near future. Again, simply because of geography, India is and has to be the first responder. So again, to me, that speaks in favor of a natural partnership in so many ways, existing and needing to be nurtured and preserved. Thank you. What is Creolization and then what impact does that have on Sri Lanka? Thank you for noting that and bringing it up in a podcast, which probably doesn't deal much with those sort of issues. And it was a sort of fun idea that I, again, was inspired by looking at the context of the Seychelles and Mauritius. Now, it is a term that's born out of the Caribbean context, and it's also something that's much discussed, debated, contested.

So what it signifies exactly, but what it does draw out is the fact that identities are constantly changing over time. And like language, there's nothing static or given. I mean, perhaps in contrast to geography, identity is extremely fluid and hard to narrowly define. And precisely when you bring in shared identities and perhaps I think the maritime context of it all just amplifies that, which at a continental level is perhaps easier to demarcate. But again, in that maritime context is much more fluid and therefore much more difficult to pinpoint and perhaps gets lost out in the process. Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that it got me thinking again about the problem of South Asia as a region and the fact that South Asia is often described as a region that has failed at regional integration in many different ways. the blame for why it hasn't supported integration at various levels over time. I think that that narrative is changing recently, but over the sort of scope of the last 70 years of most independence

of most of the countries in that region, the question is, you know, why has it not been more successful? Why hasn't India promoted it more? And I think rather than just looking at India's role, it's also a question of looking inwards within these South Asian countries to understand the problem of identity that each of them have had identities the fact that even Sri Lanka even Nepal which were perhaps born as states more clearly than the other South Asian states even they've had immense problems and difficulties when it comes to issues of identity and identity politics so we've seen all the negative consequences of identity politics and issues of identity but I think if we start thinking more about this creolization processes one can look for the more

the deeper and more fascinating and the more kind of constructive aspects of shared identities and again I think that brings me to the bigger point of and also why this book is kind of you know so apt in this discussion of looking at the maritime history of South Asia so the maritime identity of these countries because there's been so much of a continental focus in terms of the region and also in terms of the way these countries have defined themselves and the maritime has been for a variety of reasons so again I think that focus on the maritime identity of South Asia will show that there are these deep parallel creolization processes which need to be talked about more and need to be studied much more so that parallel was what got me thinking about how can we borrow

these concepts from other regions. Javanta, we've talked about Mauritius and Seychelles a little bit. Can you explain what those two countries are actually doing together to overcome their size disadvantage, if you will? It's a problem of being small in population and territory, and then huge when it comes to their economic, exclusive economic zones. So I just wrote down the numbers, if it's something that you think about using. Is there, I mean, the Seychelles population is amongst the smallest in the world, and

It has this territory of just 451 kilometers squared, yet it's responsible for about 1.3 million kilometers squared of exclusive economic zone. Similarly, Mauritius is a bit bigger size and population, but it has 1.9 million kilometers squared to look after in terms of ocean space. Both vast resources that can be tapped and huge economic potential for blue economy, ocean economy potential, whatever you want to call it. I don't know which term is currently in favor, but they also need to raise the capital to invest in the infrastructure to tap into these resources. So Seychelles, for example, have been quite innovative with this idea of blue bonds and raising money internationally with an environmentally conscious angle at the same time. So I think they're good. And again, with Seychelles perhaps taking a little bit more of the lead on that in terms of highlighting and bringing to the whole world's consciousness this importance of ocean economies as something economically exciting, but with that environmental, sustainable development consciousness included. So they've really managed to spearhead, I think, that dialogue on both fronts. And they've done that through the UN system. They've also done that. That's also an interesting thing, something like the Indian Ocean Commission, which is a Francophone institution, which they both belong to. And so I think they found these innovative ways of having a similar problem and maybe recognizing the need to pool their resources.

And I think that that insight is something we need to look at much more closely in South Asia. How do we get countries to pool their resources and overcome all sorts of embedded institutional problems? And I think that is already happening, but I find it interesting to look at what goes away, focusing the discussion on specific examples that perhaps could be explored further in South Asia. Well, thank you both very much. That's all the time that we have for today. I'd like to thank my guests, Dr. Shulani Atanayaka and Dr. Jeevanta Shotli. Shulani, where can we find you online and what are you working on next? Thank you once again for the invitation to participate in this podcast. So currently, I'm working a little bit more on China's engagement in South Asia. I'm trying to look at the port politics. And also, I'm thinking of expanding a little bit more on how other countries in the South

Asian region look at their maritime identity. I think India clearly has some vision, but I would like to see whether the other South Asian countries also have a vision on their maritime identity. So I can be reached at LinkedIn, also in our university's website, isas.edu.sg. Thank you. Jeevanta, same basic questions for you. Where can we find you online and what's your next project? Yes. Thanks also again for inviting me over. And so I am a newcomer, but I am available on Twitter now at Javanta Shirtley and something called at DCU India, which links to an institute that I'm also running called the Ireland India Institute at the university. and I'm currently finalizing a long drawn out book project on statecraft and Indian foreign policy that's a co-authored book and the next project has been something ongoing and I hope it will now go to a project is on India's maritime strategy and the role that Indian Ocean

Island states are playing in that maritime strategy and also this is more of a pet project but I also hope to develop it more concretely, is to look at specific examples and mechanisms of maritime cooperation within South Asia. Because, again, I think the maritime world offers very particular challenges and very fruitful opportunities for cooperation. Well, thank you both so much again for coming on today. To our listeners, thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time. Sea Control is edited and produced by Ed Salo, William McQuiston and Jonathan Selling. © BF-WATCH TV 2021 © transcript Emily Beynon