Sea Control - Sea Control 609: Evolution on Demand with Dr. Joanna Siekiera

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

Evolution on Demand: The Changing Roles of the U.S. Marine Corps in the Twenty-First Century and Beyond, edited by Joanna Siekiera (Marine Corps University Press, 2025). Sea Control 537: Europe��s Role in Indo-Pacific Security with Dr. Joanna Siekiera#BruteCast S7 E01 - European Security and China with Dr. Joanna SiekieraLinkedin: Dr. Joanna Siekiera 

You're listening to Sea Control, posted by the Center for International Maritime Security. Welcome aboard the Sea Control podcast from the Center for International Maritime Security. I'm Walker Mills, and my guest today is Dr. Joanna Shakira. Dr. Shakira is an international lawyer, a NATO consultant, and an adjunct professor at the Asia-Pacific Center for Security. studies in Honolulu, Hawaii. She's also a non-resident fellow at Marine Corps University and a certified sailor. She previously joined us for Sea Control 537 to discuss Europe's role in the Indo-Pacific, and we'll provide a link to that. But today, we're going to discuss a new book from Marine Corps University Press, Evolution on Demand, the Changing Roals of the Marine Corps in 21st

Century conflicts and beyond that Dr. Shakira both edited and contributed chapters to. It's available for free download on the Marine Corps University Press website. You should definitely check it out. And it was named to the 26th commandant of the Marine Corps professional reading list. So another validation of its goodness. Aloha, Joanna, welcome aboard. Do you want to start by telling the listeners a bit more about your background? Definitely.

Thank you, Walker. Ladies and gentlemen, Jean Dobry from Poland. I'm supposed to be now in Hawaii, but some plans were postponed. I am very happy to be back at this great platform because my biggest drive is to educate people to present international law with all its force. And not only as a shield, but also as a weapon in modern warfare, in irregular warfare,

do legal warfare, so loafer, not only in Poland and the US, but across NATO. As you mentioned, I'm a proud fellow of Marine Corps. And definitely my education is across the globe. I love in the pack. You cannot see it, but at my background, it's the map of Oceania. I love this place. I've been sailing across. I did my doctorate studies there and then postdoc.

And so my job is my passion, basically. So I'm very delighted to be here back again at your podcast. Awesome. And we're excited to have you back. A reminder to the listeners that all the opinions here are our own and not reflective of any other institutions, which we are associated with. I'd love if you could start by telling us about the book

and particularly about the origins of the project. I know there's been a lot of good stuff, a lot of goodness coming out of Marine Corps. University and the Krulex Center where you're a fellow. But how did this particular project get started? And when readers crack open the book, what are they going to find? I fell in love in Marine Corps basically when I was little girl. So I think we can start at that point in Europe when I was little girl playing with my Barbies and I was watching news about Balkan wars in 90s. So I don't know if you guys know.

but the first international troops sent to Balkan wars were American troops from Italy, and they were indeed Marines. So me, as a little girl, feeling this unfairness that how come me in Poland, I can be safe, and those children in Balkans, they are witnessing terrible scenes. But then who came to help? Marine Corps, U.S. Marine Corps. And the seed was planted in me, I would say. And then when I was doing my research being bold and bold and Walker knows, but also you ladies and chance, if you want to check up my research,

is authentic because I say how it is, know, how we want to understand the psychology of the enemy. So Marine Corps invited me to some events, but then I was like, no, maybe there's some spam. And they send again invitations. Like, who is this broadcast center? Like, who are those people? They're like, okay, let it be, let it roll.

And then they invited me to talk about legal culture during the war in Ukraine. That was in exactly 22. And so we recorded another podcast. And then they launched this fellowship. And I was like, well, why not give it a try? I wrote my program, my scholarship. they accepted. And then I decided me with my, you know, sanguine character, I was like, I have to do something.

I not only want to have a title, affiliation of Marine Corps, I want to give something. So I said to the board that, hey, I want to publish a book. I want to gather fellows but also friends of Marine Corps University to give something extra, to give something multidimensional, something international, because I want to to promote Marine Corps not only within the US but across the globe. And so therefore, as you mentioned, Commandant put this book to the innovation category because my mission was not only to introduce how Marine Corps was effective in the past, but also you guys, you're perfectly fitted for the future conflict, so irregular warfare.

So therefore, the idea was born and i am very delighted to know also from marianicore university press that this book has been one of the most downloaded from the website awesome well that's great to hear yeah and i think you're mentioning the the brute cast uh that the kurelac center was putting out so we'll try to put a link we'll try to dig those up and put a link to those uh in the show notes by old stuff still is probably uh fellow traveler uh ian brown uh when he was when he was indeed indeed and it Am I right in remembering that all of the chapters are by current or former fellows from the Kruelak Center? So it really is the Brut Kruelak Center for Innovation in Future War at Mrenkore University.

That's kind of the nexus of this volume. It is plus one is a British citizen researcher from London and one is Army, fellow who's been doing a war fighting. But I intentionally put those people together because they truly bring something different. When you read the chapters, they are so unique. And I am very proud of that because usually when we have books, they are monothematic. They will crack one topic from different angles. But here, I decided to let people speak up their voices.

There won't be many footnotes, you know, boring academic stuff, absolutely not. I want people who have experience like boots from the ground, like they've been there, they've seen stuff and they can bring something to the debate. So I'm very, very proud of this book. I know that that's another thing. Why not to brag about that Marine Corps University Press had to reprint after three days already because it was gone? And so I think that's a great.

segue because you know you're talking about how the book has a lot of a lot of different stuff in it right which is one of the things that that drew me to it is a lot of different topics but is there a single focus right it's in the innovation category on the common on the common non professional reading list so is there is there a single kind of through line thematically or is or how did you know how did you and the authors choose the the topics Definitely. And that was me. I like to laugh that in my book projects, I am very totalitarian. So I will not accept no or other ideas. Because imagine 20 authors and everyone, they know what to write, how, right? Like, guys, no, no, no. We have to stick to this red thread. We agreed. So therefore, the subtitle of the chapter, the changing, sorry, the book, the changing roles of the US. Marine Corps in 21st century conflict and beyond.

So what is happening now and will be happening soon, that this changing role is still relevant. It's still the basis. It will be, and also I wrote it in my introduction, that Marine Corps can be and is a role model for other countries who have Marine Corps or Marines like the Netherlands, or who don't, for example, Poland, we don't have. But still the way Marine Corps operates can be very useful for other countries and other forces too.

And I hope that is easily to find in each chapter that every author of mine, regardless they are Marines or not, if they are civilians or military, they would underline that depending on the geopolitical arena or type of a conflict, Marine Corps still will be needed. You know, besides the work of just editing, which is significant, right, and I have some experience with multi-author book projects, and it's, you know, I understand exactly what you're talking about. You have authors with different ideas of what they want to write about and different, very different styles of writing and you're trying to kind of make it all work, but still keep their authentic voice. But besides the editing,

you also co-authored some of the chapters, right? So you're a contributor as well. And I'm curious how that writing on your own project is a little different than editing. And then also which of the chapters you would highlight for us, right? I mean, perhaps besides your own, you know, and not asking for you to play favorites here, but are there any that you would want to show particularly

are particularly good examples of the success of the project. I see you're holding up your coffee right now, so you're going to crack it open and... Definitely, because a good question about editing. The problem with working with friends is that they will misuse the power. They will misuse the friendship, and they will basically ask me to be their own secretary, not their boss, because I'm their boss in the project,

But they will be always like, hey, Joanna, can you help me with footnotes? Or do you think this like introduction is okay? Like, guys, I love you. But like, this should be your language. As you mentioned, I give my authors full authority to be genuine, to be authentic. They use different language. And I don't mean English language, but the way they express themselves, the way they use certain words, how long sentences are.

And I think it's beautiful because when you read, they are all different. And I actually co-outtered two chapters because those two particular Marines, they told me like actually most of my marine friends, like, no, no, we don't write, we don't read, we don't do stuff. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. And as you already know me, I don't take no as the answer. So it's like, don't worry, don't worry, you write your right. thoughts and I will just edit them slightly so that would be readable and useful and so we did and so we did first is lieutenant colonel curtis keobbe who just retired Curtis we know each other from my

NATO project so that's also beautiful to portray Marines in a NATO missions in stability operations I myself, I've been working in Italy for NATO for more than four years. To portray that in the US, you are all aware of stability operations, but not necessarily about stability policing, because that's very European way of thinking, that we have our gendarme. Yes, exactly. But what Curtis was doing in Iraq, that was exactly stability policing, teaching, training, local police to empower them,

not to give them fish, but fishing ground. How they would fish when the US and the coalition is gone. And second chapter of mine is with Colonel Aaron Shankar, and it's about cyberspace. So cyber security, and again, why US Marine can be used as a role model. That's beautiful. Maybe not so many people think about it, that Marine Corps can not only be expert in cyberspace,

but they can also be presented as a role model for other NATO members states in this particular domain. And when you ask me, which is my favorite, sorry, I am unable to pick just because they are so different in the length, in content, in the line of argumentation. and some of my authors, they hold PhDs. Some, they have only college. And I don't care because they are equally valuable, you know, contributions to their book. Another thing that, you know, I'm interested in the title, evolution on demand, I think is quite fitting because, you know,

most of the chapters are thinking about not necessarily forced design, 2030 specifically, but kind of the role of the Marine Corps in the future and kind of the cutting edge of a Marine Corps thought. How did you come up with the title? So I did not. I didn't want this title laugh so much because my title was super boring. I see myself as a super boring international lawyer like reading some legal act before I go to bed. I was like, no, let's do international law and Marines and guys, girls, actually, Stephanie and Angela from Marine Corps University Press. Like, Joanna, Marines, they will not read it.

Why? International law, they will not read it? And like, no way they will read it. No way. We should have some catchy titles, some sexy titles. Like, I don't want the sexy title. I want something serious, something, you know. And they're like, well, no, sorry, trust us. I was like, okay, well, you run the business for so many years.

just pick something smart but also catchy and so they suggested this evolution on demand and I was like actually that's very fitting as you said like it's all about what I wanted in the content I think what I got with my authors and at first I thought like evolution

but doesn't mean that Marines they have to evolve they have to progress but then it's like well yes world is progressing, evolving, armed conflict. They are. So we must not only adjust, but we also have to evolve. So therefore, also for me, I rediscovered the true meaning of this term. And I'm very proud of it because I saw on even LinkedIn there are some people using hashtag evolution on demand. So, hey, why not? This is kind of back to an editing question, but I think relevant to the the last question about ongoing forced design efforts and force design challenges,

keeping pace with current threats. One of the things that can be difficult, and I kind of know this from my own experience, but I'm curious if you dealt with it in the project, is how do you balance keeping, when you have authors that are writing, large pieces of writing about things that are happening in real time, they're going to want to keep coming back and like, well, I got to add this in. I got to update it with this, right? because the things they're writing about are actually changing. But as an editor, right, as a project leader, you have to keep the project moving.

So at some point, you know, I assume you have to cut the authors off. So I'm curious how you dealt with that and you balance the demand to have the most, you know, up-to-date book published, but also like get it across the finish line at some point. Yes, that's a struggle, everyday struggle. And you know it's best. as well. I think it's our human nature that at first, all of my out, just like, ah, Joanna, maybe 10 pages. That's maximum I can give you. But then, exactly, the moment they were like dig in, in, in, it's like, hey, like 40 pages is okay. It's like 40. Like, are you

crazy? Because they love the topic so much. And they were like, hey, you know what? I found another person and I consulted that person. And then, you know, I found this new book. And I was like, yeah, great, this is research, just what you do. But how don't you just start with it? Give people something. And I use this, I don't know, technique on my lectures or keynote speeches. So people would not feel like overfed. You must give them something that they will still feel hungry.

They're like, huh, okay, that's a tasty bite. I want more. And that would make them research more. That would make them look at for this outdoor. and his or her further publications. And as for this timing, like everything has, you know, has been running in today's world,

especially conflicts. I think it's important to underline what we have, make some small predictions, but again, we don't have a crystal ball. So it's pointless to go that far. But based on the current knowledge, and as we all know history likes to repeat, likes to repeat, then we can assume some actions and be honest.

Are we really prepared? Have we been training enough? Or maybe we should change the way we train because the enemy exactly is also evolving. And I think, I hope we accomplish that in this book. Right, yeah, and I think that's good advice, you know, for writing and presentations generally, right? Keep the audience hungry, which...

Always. Kind of a shorter question here is, who do you imagine is the ideal audience? Are you thinking mostly it's Marines or it's people who want to know about the Marine Corps? Who's the audience that you guys intended? Definitely all of the groups, they will benefit. but my desire, knowing Marines and being in love of Marines,

my dream was to cure this identity crisis. Some Marines are open about that. Some are not. Me as a civilian, as a lawyer, as a Polish-European, I can observe that Marine Corps is going through this phase that, hey, we basically do the wet stuff, But why have we been sent to desert for the past two decades? All our equipment, training, mindset, you know, got dry.

Are we still needed? Should we be subordinate under Army? Can we come back to our, you know, maritime environment? Will we be needed? Or now space forces will take over? So my dream was primarily to give this book to my first. Marines themselves. So you guys would see that you are needed and your presence at the modern warfare theater will be there always.

You are very much needed. I see that. Me as a foreigner, as a civilian, I see that. So that is one part of the audience I was writing this book for. Another is international. So in the US, everyone knows the flag, everyone knows the anthem, right? But for foreigners and also I have a lady from Philippines, I have gentlemen from Great Britain and me from Poland,

to portray that Marine Corps, the devil dogs, they are actually needed because of the way they have been trained, because of their motto, because of their ethics. It's so beautiful, but very often for God. So I would say that international awareness is my second goal in this book. And third is for decision makers, both military and political. So they would be aware because very often commander is using what they have at the table. Who is the advisor?

What kind of forces or units they have? And sometimes they might not think that, hey, actually, Marine Corps is well-equipped. well-fit because of their ethics, because of their morale, they are perfectly fit here. Just changing the optic, look broader. So I think those three categories was my goal here. In your own research and writing about the Marine Corps, are there other books or places that you've been looking for good information about, you know, the kind of debates about the role of the Marine Corps, like you mentioned the identity crisis and how the Marine Corps is evolving to meet

future threats. Do you have other places beyond, you know, the Cruax Center that you've encountered? No, to be frank, no. I don't think Marines, you, men, biologically, you don't want to speak up about emotions, identity, crisis. Why would you? You prefer to get things done. So, focus on action instead of just pause for a second and and thunder. So even when I was writing both my introduction and the whole idea for the book, when I asked Marines about identity crisis, some they were like, no, no, there's no crisis. We're fine.

We're fine. Like, come on, man. Like, I can feel that there's something odd. Even for me, like a layman or laywoman from abroad overseas, I can see. And some others, they were more like. you know, bold in their statement, but then there is, as far as I know, no institution or someone who would be speaking up openly about this topic. I'm not an expert here, but it's really easy to see that, you know, this is very important topic because it touches your heart,

It touches your values. It touches your availability or the value you bring to the society, how to protect your nation, to protect your civilization, including mine. I'm also in NATO. I'm also into a Christian civilization. So when you have a crisis, it affects sooner or later directly indirectly me and my security. So in my pure soul interest is to help you out. to get rid of this, you know, crisis,

start believing again in yourselves what Chinese are doing against America, TikTok and all of that. And I always say to my American soldiers or Marines when I teach, guys, stop apologizing. Stop apologizing for being Americans. Be proud. Be proud of who you are because we owe you so much, including Europe,

including Poland, my country. We owe you that. So stop apologizing. You were, you know, told to say, sorry for every war, but, nah, you are not responsible for wars on this planet, even though I can hear that now and then on stupid social media, but that ain't true. So again, Marine Corps, US, thank you for being there.

The last thing that I wanted to ask was I heard there's a chance that there might be a second volume. in the works of evolution on demand, also coming from Rinkor University Press. So I was wondering if you could give us, if that's true, if you might give us a preview of what some of the chapters or potential topics might be that listeners could look forward to. Definitely, Walker. It's my pleasure to announce that there will be volume two.

And actually today's due date. So there are three people, three people still. who did not submit their chapters. And I got in love again with Marine Corps Logisticians. I am a key speaker every year at the Summit Association of the Marine Corps Logisticians. And I was thinking, hmm, why there are no books or sexy books, good books about logisticians, why Logistics is always like put somewhere away. as like, come on, like, if you feed me, if you keep me warm, if you make me feel safe,

like, what's sexier than that? So why don't we have a book about that? It's not related anymore with Brut Kulak because the center got into war gaming only, right? So this one is already over. But I invited people from association, friends, of Marine Corps to write topics

about logistics but using AI. AI is now. It's not the future. We must use AI because as much as we are working on it and enemy is as well. So

I have for example not only combat logisticians but also CEOs of private companies, but also researchers who are talking about training, AI, and my input as well, about law and ethics in AI, how we would persevere our culture using AI. And it's all in Marine Corps hands. So I am really looking forward to this book, so my audience would read it,

it would perhaps learn something. They would not easily connect. So, yes. And the publication due date would be in August at the annual Association of the Marine Corps Symposium. So feel invited. Fantastic. We'll look forward to that.

Otherwise, I think that's about all we have time for today. But I'd like to thank my guest again, Dr. Joana Shakira, for discussing her new book, Evolution on Demand with us. It's published again by Marine Corps University Press and available for free download on the Marine Corps University Press website. And you can also sign up or request a hard copy from the Marine Corps University Press on their website as well

if you were looking forward to that. Joanna, the last question we always ask is where, if anywhere can our listeners find you online? And then we already talked about what's your working on next. Definitely. Please connect me on LinkedIn. That's my platform. That's how we met. So please let me attach and download the Evolution on Demand book and volume tool is on the way. I hope to contribute more to spread the word. Thank you very much for today. Awesome. Thanks again for joining us into the listeners. Thanks for tuning it. We'll see you

next time.