Search Engine - Can you cure picky eating?

Episode Date: February 21, 2025

An adult picky eater, ostracized by his friends, castigated by society, asks the most human question of all: can I change? Our friends Manny, Noah, and Devan, the chicken bone squad, return to answer their own question. Check out Manny, Noah, and Devan's new podcast, No Such Thing Support Search Engine! To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Square. Square, the easy way for business owners to take payments, book appointments, manage staff, and keep everything running in one place. Whether you're selling lattes, cutting hair, detailing cars, or running a design studio, Square helps you run your business without running yourself into the ground. I like seeing Square in action at my local coffee shop. They use Square for payments, and it just makes everything feel effortless. Quick checkout, digital receipts, sometimes even loyalty points.

It really enhances the experience and lets the team focus on. on serving great coffee, not fumbling with the register. Square works wherever your customers are. You can manage inventory, track sales, and access reports in real time. With Square, you get all the tools to run your business with none of the contracts or complexity. And why wait? Right now, you can get up to $200 off Square hardware at square.com slash go slash engine.

That's S-Q-U-A-R-E-com slash geo-engine. Run your business smarter. The Square gets started today. Do you guys want to introduce yourselves? Absolutely. My name is Mani. I'm Noah. And this is Devin.

And Sergei and listeners may remember you. You guys were on the show previously. Usually we answer people's questions. You guys showed up with a question, which you then answered, which was. Yeah, why are there so many chicken bones on the streets? It was an investigation. People honestly still email me about people. Yeah.

People, I think there are just Americans now who walk down the street see a chicken bone and think about these three unusual gentlemen from New York. I love to hear that. We got an email last week about it. Really? Yeah. Someone sent us a picture of a chicken bone. They thought that we were still doing research for the episode, I think. Since that first story, published a year ago,

Manny, Noah, and Devin have started their own podcast. They answer questions, something I was pretty sure we completely invented, but whatever. I think the reason their show is so good is their excellent question choosing. They pick questions that come out of their arguments, these three are always arguing, about stuff like, do audiobooks count as reading? Do horses hate running? Well, actually, today an episode came out called Is It Okay to Wear Your Outside Clothes on your bed? Oh, I've been criticized for this quite a bit.

Yeah, so I'll ask you, do you think it's okay. I mean, there's a lot of things I do that I don't think are okay. But I go to bed like, I don't know the people you're talking about how disgusting they are, but I'm definitely worse than that. Like, I will get in bed. I will sleep in my jeans. Oh, from outside. Yeah, we're not at that way.

That's an extreme case. That's pretty next level. It's disgusting. I mean, why? Because I don't like that. You have really comfortable jeans. They're not. They're, like, they're like, juggings or?

How are you sleeping? Is it like a wrangler? Like, they're not a comfy. They're broken in. I'll just put it that. They're very broken. Just like, by the end of the day, the exertion of literally, I just sometimes I just don't have it.

Anyway, the reason the chicken bone squad was back here today was because once again they had a question for our show, which they wanted to find the answer to. A question we here at Surgeon's Furnin found particularly delightful. Today we have a problem, and I'm grateful to be able to use this platform again to answer something so stupid. But I'm a member of the picky eating community.

Oh, wow, okay. That's run into a lot of issues in this friend group. It's run into a lot of issues in my relationship, specifically because my version of picky eating is an aversion to seafood. Across the board, no seafood. Yeah, pretty much across the board. Can I ask, are you a lifelong picky eater? Yeah.

And it's just, has it been the same aversions since you were a kid? Or have you developed, like, as your palate has advanced, has your pickiness also advanced? Yeah, I think it's been lifelong. especially with seafood. I am, I'll just tell you, a layout a little bit about, like, my background. So I'm Eritrean American. Both of my parents are from Eritrea.

And in that cuisine, there's really no seafood at all. Unless you are from one of the port towns on the Red Sea, you don't eat seafood. So I didn't grow up with any seafood. The only seafood exposure I had was, like, at elementary school or middle school, where they would have, like, fish Fridays or fried shrimp or whatever.

But so would you eat the fried shrimp when you were a kid? I did, but I didn't know what it was. Because there's just some fried thing. Because the fried thing is always carrying the weight on it. Yeah, which is what struck me about this aversion. Because it wasn't the taste at the time, because knowing what it is is what made me just like it. I don't find piquiness in food consumption strange. And like, I like seafood, but there was like, I had a couple years where shrimp all of a sudden,

I was like, I'm not doing this. And then it came back. Because they're like, they are like insects. It's like you're eating this weird fat worm that has like a visible line of poop in it sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And my family ends up being a good exam for this because although none of my siblings grew up eating fish, they all love fish.

Okay. They like it now. They're another group of people who I'm running into this issue with. We cannot go out to eat and get what they want to get because I'm there. And what are the conversations around this like? They're like, stop being, you know, I won't use the words. Basically, I'm like being a child and like preventing them from getting what they want to get. And I'll just say this.

Like, for the picky eaters out there, I don't think you should change who you are. But for me, specifically, I'm running into this enough to where I'm curious about whether it's possible to cure your picky eating. I want to know if like, is there something I can do to make it so that I can tolerate fish enough to be able to be at a restaurant and not cause any issues when I'm ordering in a group or with my girlfriend. And is the idea that you'll actually consume it? Yeah, I think, like, ultimately, like, it'd be great if I was just towing down on, like, any kind of fish, shrimp, tuna, whatever. But mostly, I just want to be able to exist in this restaurant space and, like, not be

a hindrance to people who, you know, in New York, it's a lot of money to go out to eat. If you're paying that much money and you're not eating what you want to eat, I feel like I don't want to be an obstacle to, you know, someone's desires. Okay. So that's the question that we came here to answer. Like, is it possible to cure picky eating? And? And we started with Noah.

We had him kind of look into the history of picky eating and some of the stuff people have done to try and cure it. Yeah, so what I found was the kind of idea of even just choosing what you eat is actually a pretty recent historical phenomenon. I mean, you can imagine most people just had to eat whatever was given to them throughout history. So, I mean, like, the term picky eating didn't even exist until the 70s, or wasn't used until the 70s. But there has been kind of this war between picky children and their parents for probably since, like, the 1800s. So, I mean, for the past century or so, parents and doctors have been trying all sorts of ways to cure this modern affliction.

There's all sorts of cookbooks designed to help parents sneak healthy foods into restaurants. recipes that kids might actually try. Things like spinach and brownies. Spinach and brownies? Yeah, which is pretty perverse. I feel like you would notice. Yeah, there's probably some better ways to do it. Hopefully, you know, maybe new technology is helping this, I hope.

Hypnotherapy is actually a popular method. That's for both children and adults, so maybe Manny can try that. Yeah, I would love to. But one of the most common and definitely the one I was most familiar with is what I'd call forced exposure. So, all right, you hate some food, but if we just kind of, force you to eat it or be around it, then maybe eventually you'll just kind of give in and accept that this is a decent food to eat. And common because it's successful or common because it's just what every parent defaults to? Yeah, I think it's just kind of an obvious thing to try.

It's also very popular on daytime TV. Daytime TV. Yeah, so shows like Mori. I mean, you can find a lot of examples of this. It makes for great TV fodder, you can imagine. So I want to show you a clip, actually. Okay. This is Mariah. She's 18 years old, and she is deathly afraid of pickles. I mean, the whole world eats pickles. There's a woman who looks like she just found out she's dying.

She's shaking. In school, was called the pickle girl. Of course they called her pickle girl. And then they're presenting her with trays and trays and trays of pickles. This is what the side of a pickle does to Mariah. My name is Pariah.

I hate pickles. I hate everything about them. Pickles are destroying my lives. People make fun of me. I feel a shit. Is it crazy how every idea you have has been done by someone in a dumber, meaner way? We wanted to see firsthand the extent of Mariah's pickle phobia. Oh, no.

So we sent her to the Patterson Pickle Factory. Oh, no. Where she would come face to face with thousands upon thousands of pickle. Mori's a sadist. Listen, if Mariah, the pickle girl, is out there, I would love to hear, you know, where you are now and kind of what your life has been like in the... I hope she's okay. It seems like being on... Maury being humiliated for having a very unusual psychological response to Pickles is so much worse than the problem she was trying to solve.

Yeah, so, like, need just to say at the end of the segment, the pickle girl was still very much afraid of Pickles. And, like, the research says forced exposure therapy, like that just doesn't actually work. Right. Sticking the thing people have a problem with in their face over and over again, when they haven't discussed responses, like good daytime TV, but bad therapy. Yeah, so we couldn't just take Mandy to some factory and hope it would go away. But we tried to find a scientist who had studied this kind of stuff. So we actually came across a professor at Duke University, who was one of the first people to really hone in and look at picky eating in a comprehensive way.

We wanted to first just ask if you could say your name and what you do. My name is Nancy Zucker, and I am a professor of psychiatry at Duke University, and I direct the Duke Center for Eating Disorders. Great. I'll tell you a little bit about my experience. experience with this. I've been a picky eater my whole life. I have a specific aversion to seafood and fish.

And so what we're kind of planning to do with this episode is cure that as best as we can. And so, you know, you did just mention that you worked at the Center for Eating Disorders. I guess my first question is, do I have an eating disorder? Yeah, you know, so the boundary in which being a picky eater is defined as a disorder. is based on impairment. And so if you're a version to fish, does it include seafood, like shrimp, scallops? Yeah, all of it.

All of it. The whole lot of it. Right. So, like, if you were, I suppose, an aspiring New York chef and it was getting in your way of kind of designing the menu of your dreams, then it might be, you know, crossing over into impairment. But if it doesn't get in your way, then it probably wouldn't cross the lines of a disorder. Interesting. So it's kind of the same way we're defining.

like depression or alcoholism, like whether a behavior rises to the level of disorder has to do with how well you're able to fit in society. Exactly. And how we draw the line between picky eating and disordered eating is like how much it's impairing your relationship to society. Which is funny because it's like, I'm not going to disagree with psychiatry,

but like I slightly disagree with that where I'm like, but we kind of do know, like there's a difference between like, oh, I have an aversion and like, oh, it's like a deep psychological pain. Like, it feels like an insufficient way to describe. the severity of the problem, but I'll allow it. Yeah. Mani's not so extreme as in, like, he goes out to eat with us and he can be in a presence of seafood.

Yeah. But some people don't even want to be, you can't smell it, you can't look at it, right? Like, sounds like... But I am, I do feel disgusted by, like, fish, just like when they're alive, like they're slippery and squirmy and... Just seeing them out in the world? I'm not going to throw up, but I'm like... An alive fish?

Yeah. A beautiful school of fish that disturbs you. something. I get it. No, I don't remember me he's talking about. I'll defend you against your friends. Mani's talking about you're on the beach on vacation. You're standing.

The water's up to, like, your thighs, and something like brushes on your leg. And you see something squirmy and black kind of squirrely. It's gross. Thank you. Did you go to aquariums as a kid? Yeah. So you were just like, oh, this is disgusting. Covering his eyes.

Giant fish are different. Oh, you don't like small fish. There's the little ones that are like scheming something. I don't know. It's like tigers. Yeah. the famous pots of fish. Yeah.

But so you wouldn't, like, if you're out for dinner with your girlfriend and, like, a waiter walks by with a, you know, a plate full of, like, shrimp on a kebab, you don't care. But if you're with your friends and they were being jerks and they, like, picked up a shrimp and dangled in your face, you would feel disgust. Yeah, I'd be like, get that out of my face. Yeah. So I asked Dr. Zucker to explain to me, like, what's going on with this disgust factor? Like, why is that happening? So disgust is a really cool emotion, in my opinion, right? So it's designed to protect us from getting contaminated from pathogens, right?

So it has a very protective function. And so when you think about how one becomes contaminated, we get contaminated when something crosses a body barrier. We ingest it, we inhale it, we absorb it through our skin, it crosses some orifice. And by the time it does that, you're contaminated and it's too late. And so there should be these cues that people who are disgust-sensitive pickups, like you mentioned slimy, right? These kind of things that just look to us like they're threatening and they could cause us to be contaminated.

And it's interesting that it's restricted to that one area. I would guess that you're pretty detail sensitive in other things, like that you notice like visual details of things, like text- Oh yeah, I'm really observant. I'm a video producer and so that's kind of like part of my whole thing. It's ruined movies for me, actually. I can't watch movies like a normal person anymore. Oh, isn't that so interesting, right? So I just, I think that that's like a cool adaptive trait that might not be as adaptive to the modern environment, but like if you were a cave dweller,

back in the day, perhaps you would have outlasted your peers. It's interesting, Manny. It's like you have a brain that is suited for being a cave dweller where it's like avoid unfamiliar foods at all costs because they could be, poison, and it's like sending you the right signals, but the problem is we're in a world where everything we want to do is just fit in socially, and the fact that your poison-avoiding brain is telling you not to eat fish is causing you, like, 3% social friction, which is the worst thing that could happen in modern society at all. Yeah, and I think, yeah, I think my ex once described me as someone who had a brain suited

to be a cave dweller. That's not the first time I've heard that comment, actually. But I was interested in why Devin and Noah don't have the same problem that I do. So that's interesting in terms of my experience, but Devin and Noah here love fish. Why isn't their body telling them to avoid fish? Well, because it's pretty adaptive to eat fish, right? Like, not everything's contaminated. So there needs to be this kind of balance of, like, people that have kind of a low bar for trying out things and adventuring and testing things out.

and seeing if it's okay. So there should be variation in the population about kind of one sensitivity to these different features. So you got some people taking risks like your friends and you know, you who is kind of holding back and saying like you guys try it first. So what's interesting is that Dr. Zucker actually did a study a few years ago with 20,000 self-described picky eaters.

Oh, wow. And part of what they were trying to figure out with this study, especially with her work with kids, it's like what are the things that your parents did that helped with your picky eating? And what are some of the things that they did that like really fucked you up? Yeah. But she said the things that are helpful are like creating positive experiences with her kids, involving them and prepping the food.

Like one example they had is like introducing cultures with food as a way to introduce new foods to kids. Oh, like the culture from which the food comes. Exactly. Give me some background on it. Making it feel more like an experience. Yeah. Versus here's this thing in front of you. Eat it now.

So it sounds like basically since we were kids, it's like the picky eating, like, literature has progressed. Like the field of getting kids to eat things that might be unfamiliar or weird. Because I don't think, like, like, my parents or most of those parents were reading books that were like, sit your kid at the table with a plate of broccoli till everyone's crying.

But, like, that's what they're parents. It's what they were doing. And it's like people have actually thought about this and like psychiatry has approached this. And like we have ideas about what to do. Exactly. Interesting. But honestly, the coolest thing about Dr. Zucker and our team, they take all this data, all this information that they gather.

And then they apply it to individual plans for individual people. So we asked her, hey, we're putting together a plan for Manny. Can you help us sort of shape what that plan looks like? So this is very simplistic. But like I have a grid where it's like, you know, sweet. and salty is, let's say, on the X axis and, like, chewy and crunchy is on the Y axis. And so, like, Manny, if you were to, like, plot the foods that you currently prefer and eat, you know, on this, you can get the picture, right?

Like, you know, is there kind of a pattern in terms of the textures and taste that you prefer? So basically, her advice was, like, try to introduce fish in the format that Manny might already like. So maybe, like, a fish dish that's crunchy and salty, you know, that sort of thing. You know, like, parents will often start with, like, fish sticks, for example. You know, like, things like that are, like, really, really crispy shrimp because there's more breading to fish. You know, you guys get the picture. She basically said, like, start with fried foods or put it in a sandwich. Like, she said, just put it in a sandwich?

Just, like, because I'm already used to eating sandwiches and I like sandwiches, like maybe if you do a fish sandwich, it's, like, a very entry-level way. Yeah, things that can help mask the fissiness. Yeah, exactly. Or fried food. could do some fried fish, fish and chips. Yeah, fried fish makes more interesting than fish sandwich. Maybe she didn't say sandwich. Maybe that was my edition.

But it's an example. The doctor can take that up and you'd let's. And she also said, like, you should be realistic about what you're going to do, right? Like, first step shouldn't be like, I'm going to eat 100 bites of this fish. Yeah. She's like, take it one bite at a time, small bites. Like, take the keys that your body is giving you as well. You know, like, I would really do this, like, I would be gentle with yourself.

Think about, like, how many bites I want to kind of manage. Do I want to just get over that initial gag and call it a day? She's like, you should have a chaser. I would absolutely have a chaser. Oh, yeah, like a shot of whiskey or something. Or, like, another, a bite of food. Oh, sure. I work with five-year-olds, for gosh sakes.

It's like chocolate chips, you know. My fear is that this like ends with you guys at like an all-you-can-eat seafood restaurant and you're just hammered, like vomiting and tagging shrieve or something. Yeah. You can drink your way through a lot of things. Yeah. Not, no, no.

The purpose of this whiskey is to clear the taste out. Yeah, yeah. Not so much the other stuff. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's a feel good. So she gave us a few tips that were, you know, smart and reasonable, but what I really wanted to know

before diving in was, you know, as a doctor, did she think this experiment could work? Do I have a real shot at curing this? I think that the odds are in your favor, and I'll tell you why. One is because it is restricted to this one domain. You're able to tolerate the look and smell of it and be around it, right? So that's another kind of clue that it's not as severe as it could be. You're highly motivated to work on this,

which means that you're going to go into it with your sense. threat kind of perception down and be more kind of just curious about it and you're doing it for your girlfriend, which is just lovely. And so there's like all the things that would be rooting for you to be able to get through this are on your side. After a short break, a series of trials and experiments will Manny be able to cure his picky eating? This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors out there whose job is to help your clients keep more of what they earn. Vanguard is here to help you with that. Vanguard is slashing fees again, this time for more than 50 of its funds. That's on top of big fee cuts they gave last year to investors

in 87 of their funds. In an increasingly high-priced world, Vanguard is staying true to excellence without expense. With Vanguard, your clients get access to sophisticated, active, and index bond funds at industry-leading low costs, backed by a fixed-income team that's truly obsessed with consistent outperformance. Lower fees don't just mean savings. They give Van Goghs. Vanguard's skilled bond managers more freedom to maneuver as they pursue strong results. And they give you more flexibility to deliver measurable value to your clients. Because top performance shouldn't come at higher cost. Go see the record for yourself at vanguard.com slash impact.

That's vanguard.com slash impact. All investing is subject to risk, Vanguard Marketing Corporation distributor. Owning a home is full of surprises. Some wonderful, some? Not so much. And when something breaks, it can feel like the whole day unravels. That's why HomeServe exists. For as little as $4.99 a month, you'll always have someone to call, a trusted professional ready to help, bringing peace of mind to 4.5 million homeowners nationwide.

For plans starting at just $4.99 a month, go to homeserve.com. That's homeserv.com. Not available everywhere. Most plans range between $4.99 to $11.99 a month your first year. Terms apply on covered repairs. Welcome back to the show. So after talking to Dr. Zucker, you know, I felt a little bit more confident about our goals here. I was still a little skeptical, but like, we have a plan now.

We have this experiment. And so Noah Devin and I thought it's finally time to do this thing. Which was right. Which was three steps of fishy meals in increasing fissiness. All right. This is Manny. I've just sat down with the first of three increasingly fishy meals. I recorded everything along the way.

We just jumped straight into step one, which, you know, I found myself. sitting in my apartment with some takeout. There is a restaurant by me in my neighborhood that's kind of moderately popular, and it's a seafood restaurant, and I've ordered their fried fish sandwich. It's a spicy fried fish sandwich. So you were thinking fried fish sandwich because, again, fried is a dominant flavor. Yes. And sandwich also.

Also the sandwich. This is like a double-dames. You do eat a lot of sandwiches. It's in a vehicle that I know and love. You're mainly eating, like, fish in flesh. bread. That's what I would like to hope. Okay. Yeah. So I'm sitting there examining this sandwich. I am touching it. I'm smelling it. I'm assessing it generally. My first kind of thought is that it looks exactly like a fried

chicken sandwich. And for that reason, I think all of the receptors in my brain are saying, wow, this looks really good. And it smells good as well. Crucially, though, we're going to try to see if it tastes good, or tastes good specifically to me. And so, yeah, let's take this first bite. And the first bite is great because there's no fish in it. You're just at the fried part. I just got the fried part. Then I'm like, oh, wait a side.

I look at the sandwich. I'm like, oh, there's the fish. Definitely fish. I can already tell my jaw is like slowing down. Like my brain does not want me to continue chewing this. I'm going to fight through it. Did you gag? I didn't gag.

I think because there's spices in the fried part are so, like, they were so savory and they were so, what's the word? They smelled really good. And I didn't, I don't know, I think it just masked the fissiness. I kind of, like, barely taste the fish in this, but I still do taste the fish. And so that is, my body is just kind of like, it is not enjoying that part of this. The fish. So it tasted gross, but it was kind of a success in that you were able to like, like, people eat food they don't like all the time. That's different than having a disgust reaction.

Yeah. And so I ate a few more bites. I think, I mean, if you guys looked at the sandwich, you'd be like, he didn't touch this thing. But for someone who has an aversion, I ate a lot of the sandwich. Yeah, I think if we were in with Mani when he ate the sandwich, I think if we were there, we probably would have forced a few more bites, which is probably against the wisdom of the doctor. That's like parenting the 1980s. Yeah. I'm old school.

If the sandwich were like a moon, like what phase of moon would it be? Like there's full moon, there's a crescent moon. Oh, we're talking pretty close to full. Yeah. The werewolf's about to come out. It's very bright. It's very bright. Yeah, maybe the night before full moon, you know? Okay.

I'm seeing it. The night before. No, but I think what I took to be a success was that I even ate part of a thing that was touching fish. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So step one, we could generally.

call a success. So we wanted to up the difficulty level a bit for step two. We decided to do a home-cooked meal. Yeah, we're outside. I'm open. I'm open to the door. Welcome. Please come in. So Devin and I were going to cook, so we got some ingredients and went to Mandy's place. There they are. Hey, man. How's it? It's our picky eater. And Devin and I had Googled a few different fish recipes to consider. Do you remember to search germs we used? Yeah, I mean like fish for babies Like easy, easy fish recipes for kids, things like that Just insulting

Yeah But yeah, a lot of it was pretty simple kind of either white fish Or salmon roasted in butter and kind of covered in garlic or other things Fish tacos, sheetpaned fish and chips But we wanted something that wasn't super fried We wanted to kind of step it up a little bit So we'd actually kind of see if he can take this next step or if we're kind of still stuck at the fried fish stage.

And we landed on a recipe that I've made several times before from the New York Times, roasted salmon glazed with brown sugar and mustard. I think I've had that. By Sam Sift, and it's a very popular one on your side. And it's super easy. It's like you don't even need the recipe, really. Yeah. And what was good was you could dial in the kind of sweetness of the sauce

and how much there is. Yeah, so it's brown sugar and Dijon mustard. It's almost like barbecue sauce on a chicken. Yeah. So let's see. This one on the left is going to be the one for Mani. So I'm going to make sure that one's extra sauce. Great, thank you. We added way more glaze than how I would have ever fade.

Noah had me taste the glaze, and I was like, we're going to need more. Yeah. So, yeah, it was pretty covered. We made sauteed green beans as a pallet cleanser, and he had whiskey on the rocks as his other pallet cleanser. All right. I'm here with my whiskey that I'm probably going to need after this. This looks gross, but I'm going in.

So then I ate some of it, and the glaze was really good. And I remember kind of being like, this is the first time I could see why someone would like this. Really? It's like, this tastes good. I don't want to say that it doesn't taste good. It's more of the mental factor of like trying to get past what it is. But I will say this, I'm having an easier time. than the fish sandwich.

Really? I was taken aback by the feeling of like, oh, I kind of get it. I get this. It's like the feeling you get with like an unfamiliar genre. Like the first time you hear like a country song you like, you're like, oh, okay, it might not be for me. Yeah, the guy's singing about his rent is too high or whatever.

Yeah. Wait, my rent's too high. That is pretty much the feeling I had eating the salmon. Okay, so phase two relatively successful. Yeah. Can I just observe that, I don't know, if, like, if picky eating is mainly just a social problem, like it's not like you have some food deficiency from not eating fish or whatever. You just, I understand that you guys are trying to solve this problem,

partly because, like, you have a podcast to make and you have a question for the podcast and whatever. You also just have very nice friends. Like, the legs that you guys are willing to go to make this work is very sweet and unusual. Yeah. No, I thought about that. And it's in stark contrast to how our usual dynamic is. And so I was struck by that at some point during this experiment. You mean because they weren't just, like, teasing you? Yeah.

I mean, Noah looking up a recipe, making me a meal. I know. It's kind of wild. Yeah. So now that takes us to the real test, which is step three, going to an actual restaurant to see how big of a pain of ass is it may be. And honestly, I didn't know how. this was going to go. Step one, two, I thought went fine, but I was curious how many

it was going to perform at an actual restaurant with some actual fish dishes. So where do you guys go? We went to a restaurant called Swoonies in Brooklyn. It's just like a neighborhood spot. Oh, I like Swoneys. They have some weird, cool fish dishes there. It's pronounced the Derrade. I believe that's their fish. That's like their main fish entree. I've never heard that. Yeah, I've never heard of that before. Do either of you know what Crudeau is. Yeah, they were a bunch of fish dishes that we had never heard of. But we ended up choosing three of them, and the first one was the tuna crudo.

Here's the thing about this dish. So tuna crudo, that's what's called? It's raw, like, cubed tuna, but it's in kind of like a salad with, like, avocado and what is that? Cilantro. But the main part that I liked was that it served with this bread that is incredibly buttery. And so what we were doing were put all the stuff onto the bread. and then eating it.

It's kind of your sandwich theory. Yeah. The sandwich theory. No one wants to acknowledge the sandwich theory. It's a valid theory. And the one thing I remember is not tasting the tuna at all. Like, I just didn't taste the tuna. First reaction, like, there's definitely a little bit of the texture you're getting in there,

but it's really good. Like, the whole thing's really good. I'm taking a second bite. It's kind of rare for me. A second bite. I was shocked because he went in and immediately was just a little. like, oh, I like this. I was kind of like, oh, we can just go now. I mean, we did it. I'm shocked by what I'm seeing. Not only does he like it, he's actively going back for more bites.

I think we might need to order another entree here. This is crazy. So then after the crudo came the lobster orzo, which was another appetizer. And it's, I mean, orzo, if people don't know what it is, it's like, it's pasta kind of, but it's like thicker rice, I guess. And it's got, this one's more of a red sauce. And it's really cool. creamy and delicious. But the thing that I thought helped a lot with our experiment here is that you couldn't really see the lobster inside of it. It was like hiding spinach in a brownie.

Yes, exactly. You're kind of like micro-dosing seafood. But you were finding that your microdosing seafood experience was like, not just that you were tolerating it, but enjoying it. Yeah. Okay. So I'm having a really good, in my view, successful experience at Swoonies, but I do imagine if we went to like a lobster shop or something

and it was just straight up lobster, fork and knife, I'd still have some struggle. Or if you went to like a Portuguese restaurant where sometimes they'll serve you like a whole fish with the eye looking at you. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, like, I don't really like,

every time I'm just saying if it's a full fish in front of me, I'm like, this doesn't feel right. Like, I'm more on your side of it where, like, fish can be an ingredient. Fish can be an ingredient. I feel like if the progress you've made is fish can be an ingredient, that's progress. Yeah, honestly, it did feel like progress.

Like, I was actually eating the stuff that they were putting down on the table. But then the final dish came out, and it didn't look like the other ones. Like, it actually just looked like... Here, I'll just show you a photo. This is the Dura. Oh, that's just a fish.

Yeah, I was describing as Daraad. I think I was calling it Daraad A without knowing. But this, you know, this is just literally a fish without the head, I think. Yeah, and without the tail. Yeah, and this was the final test. This is like the final boss, right? I took a forkful, I examined it,

and then I went for it. What can I say? It's really good. The charredness of the skin on the top, this tastes like a steak. And so, I don't know. This is really good. But so, wait, you fully enjoyed, like,

an actual fillet of fish. That was really good to me. Not fried. Not fried. And there was very few kind of hangups about it. Five times the charm. Yeah. It's funny, though, you know, the process you're describing,

because I feel like you have answers the question, like, can you cure picky eating? Like, I think you have. Yeah. And I think, like, most people, if there's, like, a kind of cuisine or a kind of food that they're a little bit ofverse to because it's unfamiliar, this is kind of, like, how they walk in.

Like, the first time you try it, maybe it's fried. Maybe it's an ingredient, something else. Maybe you go to a place that prepares it really well. And, like, you just, like, slow. slowly get used to something unfamiliar until you discover the pleasure in it. And then one day you turn around and you've just like changed. Yeah.

I really didn't have any hopes for myself in any of these experiments. I really was like, okay, this is kind of a lost cause. There is something so... I mean, this just sounds obvious now, but just like the repetition of doing it over and over again until you get used to it just like helps a lot.

The texture of these fish, the fish that I've had, in these past couple of months. I'm used to it now. And so I'm... Okay, so this is a two-month process. The argument you guys were having, the question you're trying to answer is,

can you cure picky eating? What do you believe now? I think you... At least in my case, you can kind of cure it. Because I'm not going to eat fish that's just sitting there. That's not presented in any kind of way.

But depending on, like, the flavors around it, depending on the vehicle it's served in, there are ways you can tolerate it. For my purposes as a bystander, the answer is yes, because I was shocked when he was taking bites of this raw tuna and enjoying it, and I was like, this is good enough for me. And do you feel, like, not, I don't want to make too big a deal of this, but like, do you, like, picky eater is, like, a trait. Like, it's, like, one of the aspects of your personality. Do you feel differently now on the other side of this experience? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely, there's, like, all the corny stuff that it's taught me, like, how much I can personally affect in my life.

There's also other foods that I have picky eating aversions to that I want to try now. What do you want to try? Like corn, for example. I just hate corn. Corn? Yeah. What's your issue with corn? You know what?

It is kind of similar to fish in a way that it's slimy and like the texture is weird. It's okay if it's like sprinkled in a salad or something like that, but just like eating it right off of the ear is tough, really tough for me. Popcorn. Right up here. Popcorn's fine. Cornbread. Cornbread's great. Okay, you're going to be fine.

Hey. And how do you guys show? Good. I'm overjoyed. Mani, Noah, and Devin. Their podcast is called No Such Thing. If you like our show, we think you'll really love theirs. Some episodes to check out that we really liked.

Are suburban dogs happier than city dogs? I hope not. And should men sit when they pee? Which has got a lot of conversation over here. No such thing. It's available. I have a podcast, Spotify, everywhere else. Styles are at Nordstrom Rack stores now, and they're up to 60% off. Stock up and save on Rag and Bone made well. Vince, all scenes, and more of your favorites. How did I not know Rack as Adidas? Why do we rock? For the hottest deals.

Just so many good brands. Join the Norti Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great price. That's why you rack. Hey, business owners. The NFL season is a big revenue driver. Now there's a smarter way to get ready. Everpass is the only authorized commercial platform for NFL Sunday ticket, delivering every live out-of-market-market-season Sunday afternoon game.

Locking the best offer now with up to 40% off saving up to $2,500. For the first time, you can pay over nine months. Get up to six free devices and a free bar kit. Sign up by April 27th. Visit Everpass. Limited time offer, terms apply. Right now at the Home Depot, shop Spring Black Friday savings and get up to 40% off, plus up to $500 off select appliances from top brands like Samsung. Get a fridge with zero clearance hinges, so the doors open fully, even in tighter spaces in your kitchen, and laundry that saves you time, like an all-in-one washer dryer that can run a full load in just 68 minutes.

Shop Spring Black Friday Savings, plus get free delivery on appliance purchases of $998 or more at the Home Depot. April 9th through April 29th, the US-only C-Store Online for details. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vote, and Truthy Pinnam and Ani, and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John, backchecking by Holly Patton. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armand Bizarrian, additional production support from Sean Merchant and Kim Kupal.

If you'd like to support our show, get ad-free episodes, zero reruns, and the occasional bonus audio, please consider signing up for Incognito Mode. You can learn more at search engine. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss Berman and Leah Reese Dennis. Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perlowe, and John Schmidt, and to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Matt Casey,

Mora Curran, Josephina-Fran, Josephina-Furtney, and Hillary Schuff. Our agent is Orrin Rosenbaum at UTA. Follow and listen to Search Engine with PJ Vote now for free, on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building.

Fit for your ambition. First Citizens Bank.