Secretly Incredibly Fascinating - Beavers

Episode Date: May 22, 2023

Alex Schmidt and Katie Goldin explore why beavers are secretly incredibly fascinating. Special guest: John Hodgman.Visit http://sifpod.fun/ for research sources and for this week's bonus episode.Come hang out with us on the new SIF Discord: https://discord.gg/wbR96nsGg5

Beavers. Known for being busy. Famous for being woodsy. Nobody thinks much about them, so let's have some fun. Let's find out why beavers are secretly incredibly fascinating. Hey there, folks. Welcome to a whole new podcast episode, a podcast all about why being alive is more interesting than people think it is. My name is Alex Schmidt, and I'm very much not alone. I'm joined by my co-host, Katie Golden. Katie, hello. Happy Beavers to you. Hey, that's me. It's Beavers time. And we are joined by a special guest for Beavers time. He is a bestselling author. He is on Up Here on Hulu. He's the co-creator of Dicktown on FX and Hulu, and of course, our network buddy, now that

we're on the network, from the Judge John Hodgman podcast and much more. John Hodgman, welcome back to the show. Thank you. Network friends. Network friends. Very thankful, as always, to our supporters, our listeners, and thank you to supporter Alex W. for this suggestion of the topic of beavers. Beavers.

Beavers. Let's start with you, John. We always ask our relationship to the topic or opinion of the topic, beavers beavers beavers let's start with you john we always ask our relationship to the topic or opinion of the topic how do you feel about beavers i'm not against them cool i a long time ago in a galaxy far far away called western massachusetts uh my my mom and dad had a little home by a little brook that they would go to on the weekends and then years later my family would go there too my little family but by the time we started going there that little brook had become a little bog because the beavers had damned it up for their own nefarious purposes they had damned the brook up way up way up you know in the back of our property i guess so they

could have a big old pond to swim around in and consequently i mean my mom hated the beavers for that reason because um instead instead of the the babbling of brook, we had the breeding of mosquitoes. Oh. But, you know, beavers got to live. They got to find somewhere to lodge, so they got to build their lodge. They got to dam it up. I hadn't really thought about beavers and mosquitoes

loving slowing down water and making water stay in one place. They both love that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Beavers and skeeters like peanut butter and jelly. But I've seen, you know, look, I've seen internet videos of beavers.

I never saw in person any of the beavers who messed up the brook and turned it into a mosquito bog. You know, I just know that they were out there. I would see their little marks on the trees. Yeah. But I've seen internet videos of beavers moving things around and their their dumb teeth with their wild tails i'm like yeah they're pretty cute i like them they're sleek and there is a majestic beaver lodge in the town of brooksville

maine that i drive by frequently whenever I'm in Maine, driving from one town to another, doing my own beaver business. I'm busy as a beaver. Sometimes I get to get over to Brooksville. And right there at the bottom of the hill, there is what used to be probably a river and now is a bog. And there's a big beaver lodge in it. And it looks good to me. I like it. I was about to say, I think I know some stuff about Western Massachusetts and Maine. And I realized it's mostly from your book, Vacationland, which is wonderful. Vacationland by John Hodgman, available in paperback wherever books are sold. Yeah.

Or stolen. I forget how much or little it talks about beavers being part of that. But it's very New England woods, you know? No, beavers were never my problem. My problem in New England was the problem of the United States, raccoons. Ah. You know what I mean? Which are also very cute and they have a right to live.

But the problem with raccoons, and this I did talk about in Vacationland, is that a shockingly high percentage of them, something like 97%, are infected with a particular parasite. And that parasite comes out in their poop. And so if you're, if a raccoon turns part of your property into a, what they call a raccoon latrine, which is a very nice way of saying a raccoon poop station. And that happens to be on your deck. For example, be careful. Do not just sweep it up because that parasite that's in that poop, particularly if the poop is, I don't want to get graphic, but if the poop is old and friable and you're sweeping it up and you inhale some of that matter, that parasite can get into your brain and it can cause real big problems like blindness and even death. So raccoons are out there trying to kill us with their poop and I don't like them for that reason.

So don't vape beaver poop. Don't vape beaver poop. If we take one thing away from this podcast today. Well, no, beavers, I don't know about their poop because beavers keep it in the woods. Do you know what I mean? Oh, but raccoon poop. Don't vape raccoon poop.

Sorry, you can vape as much beaver poop as you want. It's the raccoon poop. You don't want to vape. That's not me saying that. I'm not the one. That's not my endorsement. I just want to be very clear. I, John Hodgman, do not neither endorse nor unendorse the vaping of beaver poop.

I can't tell you how to live your life. I think it would be hard to find because I feel like beavers kind of, unlike raccoons, which are constantly getting all up in your business and your trash cans and trying to get into your house. Beavers are like, no, we're just out here. We make our own house. Yeah. I also, weirdly with their poop, I did learn that there is a disease that has been nicknamed beaver fever. Oh, so they've got bad poop too is what you're saying and it's it's not as bad as that raccoon poop thing sounds basically their poop if it's in water that humans

consume we get a disease that pretty much just makes us poop a lot it's like a diarrhea and that's all that happens to you but it's nicknamed beaver fever jardiasis jardiasis. Jardiasis. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Okay, I'll walk it back. Don't vape beaver poop. I'm sorry. And don't drink beaver water. Yeah, when life gives you beaver poop, don't make beaver poop lemonade. According to the New York State website that I'm looking here on beaver fever, a website that i'm looking here on beaver fever giardiasis is an intestinal parentheses bowel disease caused by a microscopic parasite called giardia yeah giardia i've heard of that it causes

diarrhea and then they have to say in parentheses loose stool and then slash poop like okay like it's diarrhea do you not know what that is it It's loose stool. Okay, I'm not getting through to you. Loose poop, okay? Poop. Yeah, New York State government not messing around. Yeah. I think I need it phrased a few more ways before I totally comprehend what's going to happen to me. Yeah, it's poop. You're going to poop. You're going to poop. And Katie, what's your relationship to beavers, your opinion? Yeah, Katie, everyone's wondering. Katie, what's your relationship to beavers, your opinion?

Yeah, Katie, everyone's wondering. Well, I've recently learned that I'm not supposed to vape their poop. That's going to be hard for you to break that habit. It's, you know, I'm going to have to get some beaver poop, like, what is it, nicotine gum, but with beaver poop, sort of a gum that simulates the experience. It's just something to do with your hands. You know what I mean? It's like a plastic beaver to suck on every so often. But, you know, no, I'm strongly pro beaver.

I love beavers. I think that they are really interesting in terms of being nature's little architects. They do a lot of terraforming. They are, I think, next to humans. They're one of the world's most significant terraformers. They shape their environment. It's really interesting. I would say that if I came face to face with a beaver, however, I would probably be afraid of them. Their teeth are both magnificent and intimidating.

You know that they're not human size. They're little critters. Well, they can get up there. I think they can get pretty, like, they continue to grow throughout their lifetime. So if you get a really old beaver, I think the maximum, I don't want to steal numbers from Alex. Alex, are we going to talk about how much beavers weigh? Oh yeah. Apparently the heaviest beaver ever recorded was a North American beaver weighing 110 pounds. Yeah, there you go. All right. Yeah. They're usually up to like 65, but yeah, 110. I'd be a little bit afraid if I came across a 110-pound beaver on the trail.

That's fair. I didn't mean to invalidate your fear, Katie. I apologize. I would be sorry. Apology accepted, but it's not me you got to worry about. The beavers. It's a big beaver. The real beaver fever is fear.

Am I right? Fear is the mind killer. That's right. And we must. We must not fear. There's a little death that causes complete obliteration. And Dune, he sticks his hand in a beaver mouth. He sticks his hand in a beaver lodge.

Yeah, there we go. And a million spice addled beavers nibble at his hand. Or that's his hallucination anyway. What is it? The gum to beaver? I guess. Yeah, there we go.

I shall face my fear and let it, and let it nibble at my hand and where the beaver is nibbled. Only I shall remain. I think that's how it goes. If you, if you weighed without rhythm, even more. Okay.

Yeah, no, I thought we could stick one more in there. Yeah, I love it. One more Dune reference. You know, weighed without rhythm, you won't attract a beaver. It's like in that movie Dune or book, depending on which you've consumed. And you're making the reference to the fact that the giant sandworms in the novel and films are attracted to rhythmic pounding or footsteps. So if you want to attract one, you get something called a thumper.

And it's a little machine that just goes boom, boom, boom, boom in the sand and that attracts a worm. Now I want to ask you a question. Does a beaver thump with its tail? Is that something that happens? Does it warn? It turns out. Or am I making that up?

I know rabbits do it. Thumper and Bambi does it. That's why it's called Thumper. But do beavers do something with their tail like that or what? Yeah, there's a whole number about it. I think I'll bring us into the stats and numbers for that. All right. This week, that's in a segment called...

called... Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da- Beavers edition. Of course, that was the song from The Angry Beavers. The Angry Beavers. I watched all the time when I was a kid. Nickelodeon. Nickelodeon. I love that Daggett and Norbert, whatever their names were. They were a pair of beaver brothers. I was too old for that. I don't know anything about the Angry Beavers.

Yeah, they were beavers and they didn't get along with each other. And that was the premise of the show. I'm looking at them now. They're pretty funny. And thank you to Willow Tanager for that name. We have a new name for this every week. Please make it as silly and wacky and bad as possible. Submit through Discord or to sifpod at gmail.com.

And first number here is one. Because one is the amount of times a beaver slaps its tail on the surface of water to warn fellow beavers about danger. They have a move where they do a tail slap on the water and dive under the water to hide. Now I don't want to criticize a beaver. Thank you. Good.

Okay. And in there, stop right there. But it seems to me that it should be more than one because one slap could be an accident do you know what i mean yeah let's say i'm a beaver over here and a beaver over there sees danger and i don't know what's dangerous to beavers but you're gonna tell me in a minute i bet and that beaver over there sees danger. And I don't know what's dangerous to beavers, but you're going to tell me in a minute, I bet. And that beaver over there goes, slap, dive. Now, I hear that slap. I'm going to be like, wait, was that on purpose?

What? Was that something falling into the water? Did someone drop a Frisbee into the water or what? One tail slap just doesn't feel intentional enough. Or are you getting this on, Mike? These are my suggestions for the Beavers. A simple trio. That sounds very intentional, right?

And alarming. Yeah. Or, of course. That's classic Morse code for SOS. What about da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da? Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. this just in they're in the lodge and the little headphones for the telegraph there's danger there's danger afoot all right but one okay well i'm glad i got i mean i'm i'm glad i'm glad they do something anyway from the video i saw it's a pretty smooth move like it's one slap as they do something anyway. From the video I saw, it's a pretty smooth move.

Like, it's one slap as they do a dive straight in. Smooth move, another diarrhea reference. Oh, that's what diarrhea is. Smooth move, Beaver Fever. It's smooth moves. Okay, I'm glad you clarified. I didn't realize that's what diarrhea is. Okay.

And that's the only euphemism we're discussing today on the beaver episode leaving it there full stop clean show and next number is six to eight minutes because a beaver can hold its breath and remain underwater for six to eight minutes whoa so that's their main defensive maneuver is either being inside a lodge they built or being under the water. Right. Because they're mostly hunted by stuff like mountain lions, coyotes, wolves, other animals that are above the water. That is hard. I'm sure people can train themselves to, I mean, free divers hold their breath for much longer than that. When you consider the lung capacity of a human, you know, the largest human is obviously larger than 110 pounds. That's pretty good for a beaver, for its little lungs.

Good job, beaver. Six to eight minutes. That's good. Yeah, doing pretty good. And apparently a lot of their movement underwater is aided by that tail. I would hope so. One key source this week is the book Beaverland, How One Weird Rodent Made America by journalist and nonfiction writer Layla Phillip. And she writes that beaver tails are a combination paddle, propeller and rudder, as well as a water sensor for detecting whether their dam is holding together. as a water sensor for detecting whether their dam is holding together.

Apparently there are cells on the surface of a beaver tail that can feel changes in water pressure in a way where they can feel if the dam is changing and coming apart. Oh, all right. It's propeller, rudder, and what was the other part? And a paddle. Bottle opener? Yeah. Paddle. Probably, probably it would be a good idea to invent a boat with a beaver tail

on the back of it you know what i mean a new kind of power boat with a big beaver tail attachment into it just have the beaver push the boat that's true oh or yeah they might eat the dinghy yeah i mean i think it's really interesting the beavers, we were talking earlier about that idea of the sandworms being attracted to rhythmic thumping. Another method beavers use to secure their lodges and their dams is the sound of flowing water. Drives them nuts. If they hear flowing water, they will go there and start shoving mud and sticks onto that

area until they stop hearing the water trickling out. Well, I would imagine flowing water is their natural enemy. Yes. Yeah, they want to like exploit it. They want to make a pond, build a lodge and yeah, stay away. And why do they want to do this is my question to both of you. Alex, Katie, what is the way of the beaver? What is it trying to do? That brings us into a takeaway. Takeaway number one. Beaver dams are long running public works projects that beavers do not live in. Right. It turns out they live in the lodge and build the dam to facilitate. Yeah. It's not just a lodge that they have their, you know, their social club meetings in.

It's not that kind of lodge. It's not like a Masonic lodge. They're going to have a secret society in there. That's their house. Yeah, that's right. It is social, but the two main reasons they build it are security and being super social. Yeah. It turns out that beavers communicate all sorts of ways.

social. Yeah. It turns out that beavers communicate all sorts of ways. The National Zoo says they use vocalizations, gestures, and postures to communicate and also builds really robust family groups of breeding pairs, their children, and the older children too. Yeah. And they're monogamous, right? Oh, I'm sorry, Katie. Oh, just they have a little dining area in the lodge. It's really cute. They just have this like this big construction and they have an entryway that's actually under the water, which makes it really secure. So they swim down under the water. There's this underwater entrance. They get up and then there's like this dry area. They can dry off and warm up and then they can like have little dinners together inside

little dinner parties. You just brought back a major flashback and I can't remember whether it was, I think it might've been the museum of science in Boston, where I grew up, where they had for whatever reason, reconstruction or like a, what do you call that? Cross section. Cross section. Thank you. Of a beaver lodge where they showed the little hole into the water where the beavers would come in and out that seemed very cozy and it reminds me i think beavers probably invented open plan living right oh yeah it's like the kitchen area and the dining area and the living area it's all just one great room it's like bring down these walls yeah yeah they build like a wooden island to stand on in the middle of the pond and then a dome of wood over it and And as you said, Katie, underwater

entrances. So that's very secure if a coyote or wolf or mountain lion is interested in eating them. To me, it seems a little bit braggy and dangerous. To me, it seems like advertising to coyote and wolves, hey, there are beavers in here. Like, here we are. Here we are. we are like you know if you if you lived in a hole in the ground like many a rodent or a cave like a flying rodent called a bat you'd be you'd be taking advantage of a natural protection as opposed to building a big house that basically says beavers here dummies come get us yeah but then you're surrounded by a moat of water and a coyote looks at that and thinks, is it worth it to go in there,

try to find where the heck the entrance is and then as soon as I find it, get slapped in the face with a big old beaver tail. Yeah, that's right. A combination propeller, paddle, and rudder. Yeah. And wolf slapper. Wolf slapper. Yeah, you're right. All right.

Beavers, you know, I think, I guess I can't really poke a lot of holes in the beaver lifestyle. I thought I had some notes for beavers, but they've been around for a long time. I guess I know what they're doing. You can try, but then they're going to fill those holes

with mud and sticks. I know, right? Yeah, just... Yeah, and their dams are basically intended to slow flowing water to create a pond, to create a lodge on. And that benefits all sorts of life. Apparently, a beaver pond is particularly full of plankton and microbes. Water from beaver altered streams has been measured to contain 15 times more plankton and other microbes than wetlands without beavers. And so then all kinds of other animals eat that. And then humans benefit

from the pond preventing soil erosion and controlling flooding. I am realizing I haven't owned property and I've never dealt with beavers altering my property, but broadly for everybody, it's a good thing. Yeah. Oh, I mean,'s the it's the beaver's world i mean we literally just live in it we didn't have a problem it's not like we're gonna go have strong words with the beavers or contact the homeowners association or trap them for their pelts yeah we reckon we recognize the beaver's right to live it was just know, it was, what was interesting about it was that they definitely changed the ecology of the whole area. Yeah, they have incredible like wetlands creating behavior. They can change like a river into a marshland. They can also raise the water table for an entire area, creating a situation where there's a lot more available water

for vegetation and can create this entire new ecosystem. Now, it can sometimes be bad for like the previous ecosystem that was there, makes it incompatible. But I think in general, their terraforming is actually good for the environment. It is a beneficial thing. Unlike humans, like our constructions tend not to be quite as, I don't know, collaborative with nature. Let me, this is my question though. So they build the dam to make the pond to build the lodge. Is that it i always thought

that they built that they made that beaver pond because they wanted to swim around in it and eat that algae or whatever what do they even eat it don't say wood that's a myth that's a there's a next takeaway here about it let's do takeaway number two i just want i just want the audience to know i don't have any of these talking points i don't know these points that's true it's just happening naturally this is incredible we don't take me away take me away take away i'm ready wrestling pages of script ha ha ha john yes that's right this is one of those super produced podcasts where we pretend we're having a fun conversation but really we're going we've written it all out this is really happening

this is live actually all my audio was added in after the fact yeah i'm an ai and then katie we edit in later and then john is real john is real he's the real part yeah i'm the only one all right take me away take away take away number two Katie, we edit in later. And then John is real. John is real. He's the real part. Yeah. I'm the only one. All right. Take me away. Take away. Take away number two. Beaver teeth are sort of kind of metal tools and not really used for eating trees.

There is iron in beaver teeth and the enamel and beavers do chop wood with them, but they don't primarily eat wood. They'll like snack on it sometimes. I wouldn't even snack on it if I were a beaver teeth and the enamel and and beavers do chop wood with them but they don't primarily eat wood they'll like snack on it sometimes i wouldn't even snack on it if i were a beaver they chew it they chew up those trees to knock them down to build the dam yeah that's right they chew the tree to knock them down to build the dam to make the pond to build the lodge yes exactly yeah all. A few sources here. Canada's McGill University, the U.S. National Park Service, and the U.S. National Zoo. The main beaver diet is much littler plants than trees. They do eat twigs and branches and sticks. They really like grasses, ferns, water lilies, and other pond weeds.

So a little bit of the pond is generating that kind of food. And then apparently one naturalist observed beavers being a little fancy about it. They would eat lily pads by rolling the edges up with their hands and then eating them with, quote, great deliberation the way a human might relish a hot dog. There's no video, otherwise I would show it to everyone forever but yeah i'm watching a japanese instagram account that's just following this one beaver it's carrying a huge cabbage and a carrot in its mouth and it is nice it is on its way these these beavers really walk with real determination especially when they're carrying stuff around they love to carry stuff around yes they love to carry stuff and. Yes. They love to carry stuff and drag stuff.

They just want to keep it moving. Yeah. Yeah, they're constantly on the go. They do eat cambium, which is the sort of soft, fleshy layer under tree bark. It has a lot of sugars in it. Like you said, Alex, that's not their favorite food, perhaps. They like more easy- digest vegetable vegetation they also will keep like one of the reasons they have this whole lodge and pond setup is that they can store a

bunch of food during the winter under the water which keeps it uh keeps it available keeps it fresh and they um will snack on this they create these little islands of food underwater. And it also keeps it away from other herbivores. So they can store up on this food that other herbivores can't get to that they just like pop in out of their little lodge and grab some more vegetation from this like salad they've created underwater and munch on it. That's so cool. Did you say that they hibernate or do they not hibernate?

From what I found, they don't. Sorry, I wasn't listening anyway. I'm watching this beaver trying to carry three carrots in its mouth and it's having a hard time. I've seen the beaver videos when they're trying to carry stuff. That's like me when I go to the grocery store. I'm like, I don't need a basket. I'm not getting that much stuff. And then it turns out I am getting that much stuff. And I go, I'm like going to the checkout with apples under my chin, chips on my head, carefully, slowly, slowly. You know what beavers hate more than anything else, according to this video? Two trips. Yeah. Like just leave it behind and come back for it i i strongly agree

with that though i i would rather like injure my arms carrying groceries than make another there's something so humiliating about the second trip i know right well you've earned to follow beavers of insta follow that's good i'd never be i's good. I'll never be scared of a beaver again. They're too adorable. Yeah, and they have those teeth basically to chop down trees, not eat them. And Katie, you're exactly right. They'll eat the bark or the very outer part of a tree. And apparently they don't really have enzymes to digest that, but they have stomach microbes that eat it and then poop out nutrients for the beaver.

There's a roundabout way they can get a little bit from it, but they mainly chop them down for construction. And I also learned from research in this that they have orange teeth. In cartoons like The Angry Beavers, they're white, but they're orange because there's iron in the enamel. Iron is a reddish mineral and gives it an orange tint in the end. They're also chisel shaped because on the front of the teeth, you have the iron. On the back of their teeth, it's actually, I think it's called dentin. And this is a lot softer. So as they chew, the front of the teeth doesn't wear down as quickly as the back of the teeth. So it creates this ax chisel structure and that actually helps their teeth act as little axes, little chisels to be able to chop down trees more efficiently.

So cool. They just love to carry stuff around. They just love to move things around. This one beaver's now got a carrot in his mouth and then he's got a half an acorn squash in one arm and he's walking with three. You know what I mean? He's only got one front arm going. I got to stop looking at these videos. Once we give beavers backpacks, it's over for us. New dominant species. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's like that Rise of the Planet species. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's like that Rise of the Planet of the Apes movie, but it's just a Jansport falling into a lake. Oh, no. Beaver teeth are also constantly growing, right, Alex?

They are just never ending teeth. Yeah, apparently beavers are officially rodents and most rodents have that situation. And then with a beaver, it's a real tool. Oh, are they officially rodents now? Good for them. I know that was a long fight for them. They made it official. I know the capybaras were trying to keep them out of the rodent club, but I'm glad that it worked out for them. Yeah, they're the second largest rodent.

So capybara is nervous that they're going to surpass them. Oh, yeah. Like, they're already putting on 110-pound beavers. We're going to get knocked out of this club. Capybara is scared. Capybara feels them coming. Feels that hot breath of the beaver breath on its neck. That stinky bark breath.

Yeah. That stinky bark breath. That stinky bark breath, yeah That stinky bark breath There's just a couple more numbers here But one of them is about the humongousness of beavers Because the next number is more than 7 feet long And about 275 pounds Wait a minute

And that's the approximate size of a prehistoric giant beaver Whoa Ancient beaver Ancient beaver. Whoa. Ancient beaver. Ancient beaver. I love this guy. So now we're in sandworm territory again. Yeah, yeah. It was like the size of a bear.

Yeah, more than seven feet long, about 275 pounds or 125 kilograms, more than two meters. I don't understand why we can't have these animals anymore. This and the giant ground sloth. I mean, that would be so fun. Gigantopithecus. This is actually a blind spot in my education as to why we still have the, we have the mini versions of all these megafauna. How did they get small? Why did the megafauna die off and the little ones stick around? I mean, there's a few reasons. One thing that happens is as temperatures increase, you actually see animals getting smaller. There's something to do with like with climate change, hotter temperatures tend to see trends in animals

getting smaller, probably because of decrease in availability of their diet. That is the problem. So with Gigantopithecus, that huge, it's like this huge orangutan that is like bigger than a person. And it's extinct. And the thought is that it's... Or so they say. Or so they say. Yeah, it's a Sasquatch.

It's a Sasquatch. say. Yeah, it's a Sasquatch. That's a Sasquatch. But the large animals that survived are ones that tended to have a more like a diverse diet and a large range. The large animals that had a smaller range and a more narrow diet, more prescribed behaviors that they couldn't really get out of. Like those are the ones that were more in danger of going extinct. They're more susceptible to climate change. Exactly. Exactly. Because as environment changes, your preferred food is no longer available.

If you cannot diversify your portfolio, you're out. You're out of the stocks and bonds market. I don't, i don't know they were they were notorious traders as well that's what really brought down gigantopithecus was cryptocurrency yep invested too much in crypto early crypto did a bad short sale i know finance that's very that's very interesting to know because i i didn't i that's a that's a great answer to a question i didn't even realize i had until you said the words giant beaver i wish i wish we had some of those some of those big ones around those big megafauna they seem so fun or

maybe terrifying maybe really terrifying i don't know i I think there was, so there was a beaver that killed a man, like a modern actual living beaver that, yeah, there's a story of a beaver who bit a guy, got him on an artery, and the guy unfortunately passed away because of the beaver bite. So if there was a bear-sized beaver with these iron-clad, axe-shaped teeth, we'd just, like, their whole lodges would just be built out of human bones.

I wish that had been the plot line for The Last of Us, honestly. Beavers, yes. yes yeah giant beavers i love that just the sound of the slap of a giant beaver and then you see them trundling but instead of holding carrots and turnips it's like human skulls i'm into that that's the the other giving away a lot of good ip here no one can make this this is between me and katie and alex this is our thing yeah and the writers run strike don't write it don't write it yeah don't write it don't write it not allowed because the other mysterious change going from giant beaver to current is that according to the illinois state museum they not only look

different the giant beaver had a thin skinny tail and bulkier different teeth but also they behaved differently the giant beaver probably did not build dams based on what we can figure and so it's it's something happened where they started being engineers. This is a clean podcast. So I'm going to, so I'm going to say to you, bull roar, bull roar. If that thing doesn't have a flat tail and it's not making dams, that's not a beaver. You know that old comedy routine. If you got, if you're 250 pounds and you got a skinny tail and you don't build a dam, you might not be a beaver. No.

Beaver's got to have a flat tail and build dams. Period. I don't care what that thing was. Ancestor of beaver? Sure. But it's not a beaver. I kind of agree, regardless of what sort of the phylogeny says here. I also have read that their brains were very small proportionally to them, smaller

than modern day beavers, which brain size doesn't always translate exactly to intelligence. You see like ravens, parrots, very, very smart, but usually like brain proportional brain size. So if you have a really small brain and a very large head, that is usually somewhat correlates to animal intelligence. And so I think these guys were just probably waddling around, bonking into stuff. Just not, you know, just big goofuses. Oafs. Yeah. Yeah. Oafs. Goons. Did you call them goons? Goons. Right? Yeah that's right. I'm looking at a picture of one that's a dumb goon.

It's just a it's just a capybara basically. And also apparently it's a relatively common skeletal find today. WTTW Channel 11 in Chicago, they say that the Field Museum has a giant beaver skeleton, and it was discovered by a Chicago construction crew building a grade school. It's just, whoops, giant beaver. And so they're kind of all over. Apparently a lot of museums have them.

You're saying they built the school on a giant beaver burial ground, and now it's haunted by giant beavers? That's right. More IP for you and me? The sound of ghostly chewing. Yeah. All right.

We have giant beaver apocalypse, but in giant beaver apocalypse, we're going to change it around, right? Just like the velociraptors in Jurassic Park were not historical actual velociraptors because the actual velociraptors in jurassic park were not historical actual velociraptors because the actual velociraptors were about the size of a chicken uh we're gonna we're gonna take some liberties here and we're gonna have these giant beavers be actual beavers with the beaver tail and the dams and stuff and then we're also going to do one where it's a chicago public school is built on uh built on a beaver burial ground and it's haunted by a beaver they just they find furniture with big bite marks in it and it's very spooky yeah what's happening yeah they try to write with a pencil and it just nibbles away like oh oh yeah yeah right in front of you yeah very scary well and and before we give

away too much more really nip we're going to take a quick break and then we will be back with some amazing beaver beliefs beaver beliefs abbs folks i'm feeling so supported this week because like every week we have listener support members of maximum fun are the only reason this show exists at all your direct support direct monthly be in there for us is why we are a show. Thank you. On top of that, we have an amazing sponsor this week, truly. The company Upper Story, they are an educational and entertaining games company, and they have a game called Spintronics. Spintronics is a physical game where you build the mechanical equivalent of electronics. So that's already amazing. You are getting to play with stuff and assemble stuff and do puzzles with stuff that involves batteries and resistors and capacitors and actual tangible

electronics concepts. As you do that stuff, you also enjoy an illustrated graphic novel. And it's solid, man. It is an entire graphic novel that takes you back to a time before electricity was a thing. There's history in it, there's story in it. There is a really immersive narrative and fictional experience as you also tackle really cool puzzles with your hands and your mind at the same time. It's for ages eight all the way to adult. And as an adult, I am feeling very challenged in a positive way by this game. It is cool to learn how this stuff works, to find out how this stuff works. This is a real treat as an experience. Again,

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I'm going to manifest and roam. All that and more on the next Bullseye from MaximumFun.org and NPR. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. you have no choice but to embrace because yes,

listening is mandatory. The JV club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember no running in the halls. And we're back with those beaver beliefs, a B B's and it's a couple more quick. Amazing beaver beliefs. A, B, Bs. And it's a couple more quick takeaways. Amazing beaver beliefs.

You beaver believe it. The next takeaway here is takeaway number three. Many peoples in Native North America followed cultural practices that sustained beaver populations. What a concept. And this will be quick because there's no way to cover all of them, but the introduction of European people and U.S. colonization almost made beavers go extinct in North America in the late 1800s. Yeah, you're saying that the Native Americans didn't just kill them for their fur in a rapacious

process of capitalistic pelt rush. I know. It's a shocking thing. But yeah, they're actually like, let's keep the beavers around. Let's live in harmony with nature instead of killing it as quickly as possible to sell its fur to fancy ladies in Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a quick look at how they did not do that in centuries of stewardship.

All right, let's. For one thing, Native and non-Native people have hunted and trapped beavers to this day, and Native people did eat them and use their fur and stuff. You can find modern recipes for stuff like beaver chili, and Native people have done stuff like roasting a beaver hole on a fire, or making strips of beaver jerky, or making pemmican cakes made out of beaver meat pounded with berries and then mixed with animal fat. There's a lot of beaver recipes out there. Oh, that sounds really good. I mean, I feel bad because they're so cute, but beaver chili did make me hungry.

You had me with pounded with berries and animal fat. Beaver cakes pounded with berries and animal fat. Beaver cakes pounded with berries and animal fat. You know, as Native people ate these animals, they adopted rituals that either accidentally or on purpose slowed the hunting of beavers to a manageable level. Sure. people or a native Alaskan people who would gather the bones of a beaver after stripping them down, then put the bones back in the water where the beaver lived and speak to it saying the Athabascan words for be made again in the water. The idea was this would help reincarnate the beaver to live again. Right.

Beautiful. Respectful. That isn't it build a school on those bones. Yeah. respectful. They didn't build a school on those bones. Yeah. Make a xylophone out of the bones to entertain George Washington. Precisely. Precisely. And there's also Algonquin speaking peoples in the Northeastern U.S. and Canada who are recorded honoring beaver carcasses.

And they did this even though apparently beavers were also disruptive to the hunting for larger prey like deer and elk. Beaver dams and ponds would flood grazing areas for those animals. But according to anthropologist R. Grace Morgan, Algonquin speakers honored beavers because they recognized beaver ponds as ultimately positive for the ecosystem. Also, beavers disturbed the hunt by heckling them. They would hang around, go, yeah. They'd go scare the deer away and stuff. They'd drink cans of beer and yell, make a lot of noise. And they would just go like, good dunk, beaver, you're right.

That was bad aim. Fair's fair, fair's fair. Yeah. Yeah, and then the Blackfoot people who were in the Great Lakes region, then the Great Plains, they had a practice called the beaver bundle. That was a practice where they did a bundle of objects that either represented or recorded stories and cultural knowledge. And then they passed that down generations to maintain that.

And it was considered a tribute to beavers as smart animals and engineering animals. The idea was that it was a commitment by humans to fulfill their obligations to the beaver and treat that animal well. I think that this happens a lot where you have people who have lived somewhere for a very long time and they make these observation about animals and incorporate them into their culture. But we kind of, I think we have this sense of like, well, it was unscientific, it was spiritual, but really like observing the beavers impact on the environment and recognizing that, hey, this has a positive impact. Hey, you know, there are these engineers like, you know, it is very important observational

data in terms of understanding beaver behavior. And I think it's like important to take seriously the many, many years of observations that people have made of animals when we're sort of considering our our understanding of animals. Yeah, absolutely. There's even with the previous takeaway about dams and lodges as U.S. colonizers came in, they discovered that the North American beaver has a long heritage of setting up dams and altering the environment. There's an 1800s US scientist named Lewis Henry Morgan. He did a massive survey of beaver dams in the upper Midwest and published maps of it in 1868. So 1868, he publishes a map. And then... What a job. What a job. What's his name again? Henry Lewiswis morgan lewis henry morgan yeah lewis henry morgan imagine him at cocktail parties

like what what do you what do you do i run a tavern here in town what do you do map beaver lodges massive beaver lodge survey would you like to come up and see my beaver lodge survey. Would you like to come up and see my beaver lodge survey etchings? That was a time when a person was like, you know what? I've got a passion. I'm going to map all the beaver lodges in the North America and probably could make a living wage doing it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

The U S just treasury just had a category called beavers, beaver stuff. Yeah. So what did he learn from the survey, that they're all over the place? Yeah, he found lots and lots of beavers there in 1868. And then almost 150 years later, 2014, a team at the University of Minnesota used satellites to look at places where he had mapped beaver dams 150 years ago. They looked at 64 dams in the Minnesota area

and found that 46 of them were still there or close to it. Wow. Still standing. Century dams. It's definitely different wood, but it's rebuilt, maintained. It's the beaver dam of Theseus. Well, it's like how we're not the same all of our cells have been replaced yeah yeah you know it's like yeah and yet are are we not the same human being every cell in our body has been replaced over how often does that happen every three years i don't remember how how long it is but the point

is on the cell depends on the part of the body. The cells in our eyeballs actually don't renew. I think that some of our eye cells stay with us our entire lives. Otherwise, it depends on what part of the body. Certain skin cells are renewing very constantly. And certain other cells take a longer time. are renewing very constantly and certain other cells take a longer time so yes lots of parts of the beaver dams have been replaced over time but the beaver dams eyes are the same as what we're saying right and the eyes are the windows into the beaver soul that's right i i'm just you know what i'm making jokes here but that's amazing that these beavers are still working on these dams.

Yeah. After, you know, 150 years. It's just incredible. More than 150 years. Yeah, that survey, 72% of the dams they looked for from 1868 were there in 2014. That's amazing. And then that's even though there's massive growth of the U.S. population. There's a huge drop in the beaver population.

We've changed all that land use. They're still there. It's bonkers. There's a beaver dam in Canada that's about a half mile long. It's so large that you can actually see it from satellite view. And that one they've been working on for decades. So it's like generations of beavers creating the Great Beaver Dam. Yeah, it's 2790 feet long. And it's in Alberta. Yeah.

Amazing. Obviously shorter in height, but it is more than twice the length of the Hoover Dam that people built, because they just had a reason to build that much lodging and that much pond. One of two Canadian provinces I've never been to, Alberta. Oh, is this beaver avoidance? Is that why? Yeah. Yeah. I'm afraid of beaver fever. I've never, I've never been to Alberta and I've never been to newfound land. However they say it. They always tell me I say it wrong. Newfound. Newfoundfound there we go anyway now that i know they got an incredible beaver dam there i'll go check out

alberta i'm booking my flight to calgary right now let's all go and check out this dam this generational beaver dam my mother's mother's mothers choose that part these beavers you know like with the pretty specific exception of a wave of European invasion and colonization, they've been a very steady, stable, long running animal here. And the Audubon Society says in the late 1800s, North America's beaver population dropped to around 1,200 individuals. Oh, my God. Whoa. And, you know, conservation saved them their back, but it was a close run thing. And it's because a unique wave of hunting and extermination happened. Yeah. People wanted those pelts.

Yeah. Was it mostly for the pelts? Did people eat the meat or was it really a beaver fever for their beaver pelts? Yeah. Pelts in particular, a businessman who was a German immigrant named Johann Jacob Astor became anglicized to John Jacob Astor and built such a huge U.S. company that a company town of his called Astoria in Oregon was the first U.S. town west of the Rocky Mountains. It was just enormous U.S. and British beaver hunting operations that did it.

My first job in New York City was as the receptionist at a literary agency called Writer's House, which at the time was housed in a beautiful old brick building on 26th Street that had been John Jacob Astor's private bank. Wow. Oh, my God. And it had a huge vault in the back of it where we kept all of our unsold manuscripts. It was rather grim. Was it

haunted by beaver ghosts? That was the house that beavers built, basically. And indeed that part of New York was, I believe known as the fur district at that time when it was built. Oh, that makes sense. Pelt Town, USA. And part of why I thought i have an honest one john

is yeah i found out that beavers through aster are a big new york city thing apparently he basically built such a huge fur company that then there weren't very many beavers anymore and he flipped a lot of his money into new york real estate so people who know this city there's a whole chunk of queens named astoria there's an aster placeor Place in Manhattan with little beaver symbols and the subway station. I was just going to talk about those beaver symbols. I'm so mad at you, Alex. I was just going to talk about Astor Place subway station is adorned with plaques featuring beavers and all sorts of industrious poses. They're very adorable.

Yeah. I thought of it first, everybody. Looking around. You got there first. There's a beaver in the background just like. Fair, fair. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

So it's there. It's this whole weird corporate story basically is why they got hunted a lot. It was a huge industry. Yeah. Beaver pelts. got hunted a lot it was a huge industry yeah beaver pelts and in part i think because you know people would wear them for fancy pants adornment but those pelts were also used made into coats so that people could explore and move further into the american wilderness and and do terrible things yeah it was a vicious circle yeah i was really surprised to learn that beavers, beaver fur and skin was used to make top hats.

Like I, cause like, and I think about a beaver pelt, I think it's like rough, it's hairy, but I guess when you remove sort of a lot of the fur, it leaves this like sleek and shiny material that can be used to make top hats. So, yeah, just like turning a beaver into a fancy top hat for, you know, rich people. Yeah, it was just a whole gigantic beaver hunting operation. And then also in researching this, I found out that there was and still is a Eurasian species of beaver. There are two world beaver species. Two world beavers. Beavers worldwide.

Europeans basically hunted too many of those European beavers first. And so also they hunted the European ones mostly for other reasons. But they, in many parts of the world, got a lot of experience going hunting beavers at a large scale. Yeah, in medieval Europe, I think like weren't they, they thought that beavers were part fish, so they would eat their tails. Yeah. Because they thought that like during Lent, they couldn't eat red meat. So they couldn't eat like the beaver part of the beaver, but the tail was thought to be fish because it was like scaly. So they were allowed to eat beaver tails during Lent.

Like they basically thought a beaver was like a mermaid. Yeah. Hooray. What a great, what a terrific loophole. Yeah, that is, that is our other takeaway for the main show. Takeaway number four. I'm sorry. It's great.

I stole Alex's thunder. We're all tag team in beaver stories. That's all right. He stole my thunder with the Astor Place trivia. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because takeaway number four, in medieval Europe, Catholics were permitted to eat fish, reptiles, amphibians, and beaver tail during Lent. What a treat. What's it taste like? Apparently it tastes like fish. During Lent, Catholics are

prohibited from eating most meat on Fridays and on Ash Wednesday. And as a kid, I just understood that to be we eat fish instead of meat if you consider fish different it turns out that it was specifically a belief in warm meat and cold meat warm meat is red meat poultry warm-blooded animals but catholics like the famous example is fish but they could also eat reptiles they could eat amphibians and in medieval europe they categorized beaver tail as cold meat and nicknamed it forest cod. All right. We'll do you. We'll use one other euphemism in this episode.

That's it. The only other euphemism, forest cod. Forest cod for Lent. Oh, yeah. I got my forest cod. Do you know why they had this, like, why the warm meat was prohibited during Lent, whereas the cold meat wasn't? Is there like, what was the religious reason for that? You're supposed to do without things like Jesus did in one part of the Bible where he wandered the desert for a long chunk of time. And so the specific thing you do without is warm meat,

which we all love so much. So many political leaders at that time were in the pocket of forest cod. What was it called? Forest cod? What kind of cod? Yeah, forest cod was beaver tail. In the pocket of big forest cod. The big forest cod industry really, really was pushing Lent hard. The tuna of the land ask any beaver you happen to see what's the best forest cod you should be eating me

yeah like there are a bunch of accounts i couldn't find beaver tail to eat but there are a bunch of accounts from the past of people comparing it to fish. And the most famous one is Meriwether Lewis from the Lewis and Clark expedition. Oh, that guy. In 1805, he journaled that the whole party loved to eat beavers and said beaver tail tasted like, quote, fresh tongues and sounds of cod. Like that was the universal European opinion. Sorry, what? Fresh, fresh what?

Fresh tongues and sounds of cod. Apparently a sound is a cod, a piece of cod. And cod tongues. Tongues? Yes, they are eaten, particularly, I happen to recall from someone I know from the province of Newfoundland, in Newfoundland. Yeah, there you go. Newfend province of Newfoundland in Newfoundland. Yeah, there you go.

Newfendland, Newfendland, Newfendland. Write me letters. Is the tongue of like, how big is the tongue of the cod? Apparently this is weird linguistic stuff with cuts of meat. Like a cod tongue is actually a muscle in the neck. It's sort of like the weird way there's a hundred different words for parts of a cow or a pig. This is people being weird with the English language.

I see. Yeah. Yeah, you're right, Alex. It's not an actual tongue. Because it'd be tiny, right? Yeah, you're right. Not that much food. According to, I'm looking at gastro obscura, which these people are pretty reputable.

Yes. The tongue is actually a small muscle extracted from the back of the fish's neck. I see. Lightly battered and topped with salt, pepper, and scraps of pork called scrunchins, these fleshy bits of fish are transformed into a pricey appetizer that can be enjoyed throughout the coastal province of what? Newfoundland. Newfoundland. New coastal province of what? Newfoundland. Newfoundland.

Yeah, Newfoundland. Sounds good. I mean, I feel like I would be a little bit like feel a little bad as I'm eating it, knowing that I'm eating both a paddle, a rudder, and a wolf slapper all in one. Feels like a waste. I'm looking now at an article in Savir magazine from October 28th, 2015, by Aaron Goldfarb, that the chef at the Steakhouse M. Wells in Long Island City cooked up some beaveraver tail roasted it over fire the chef is hugue dufour who is a canadian quebecois where a beaver tail apparently

the canadian government says that beaver beaver is safe to eat including the tail and hugue dufour says in this article you just eat it like bone marrow. You put it on the fire, cook it, then slice it open and dip the bread in the goo. I guess it's mostly fat. I think it's mostly fat. It's very fatty tail. I do like bone marrow. So that does sound pretty good. Like on toast. I guess I would try it. The, the, the, the, the author says the author. And again, I want to credit Aaron Goldfarb here. Quote, almost completely devoid of actual meat. The white tail fat was delicate and creamy, quite rich and gooey like brains.

Well, you had me for most of that sentence. All right. Well, very cool. I guess I'd give it a try at some point. I guess I'd give it a try at some point. I guess I'd give it a try. The delectable mouthfeel of brains. Yeah. Yeah.

It's almost, I'm thinking of that time Homer Simpson thinks pigs would have to be a magic animal. Beavers are so many meats all at once. It's very, it has a huge range. It's amazing. Forest Cod. Hey, folks, that's the main episode for this week. Welcome to the outro with fun features for you, such as help remembering this episode, with a run back through the big takeaways.

Takeaway number one, beaver dams are long-running public works projects, and beavers do not live inside them. You know, because they live in a lodge next to it. Takeaway number two, beaver teeth are sort of kind of metal tools, and not really used for eating trees. Takeaway number three, many peoples in Native North America followed cultural practices that sustained beaver populations. And takeaway number four, in medieval Europe, Catholics were permitted to eat beaver tail during Lent. Those are the takeaways. Also, I said that's the main episode because there is

more secretly incredibly fascinating stuff available to you right now if you support this show and our network at MaximumFun.org. Members get a bonus show every week where we explore one obviously incredibly fascinating story related to the main episode. This week's bonus topic is the amazing truth and myths about Castorium. Visit safpod.fun for that bonus show, for a library of more than 12 dozen other secretly incredibly fascinating bonus shows, and a catalog of all sorts of MaxFun bonus shows, such as iPodius and BePoddingYou, two special miniseries hosted by John Hodgman and

Elliot Kalin. That special audio, it's just for members. Thank you for being somebody who backs this podcast operation. Additional fun things, check out our research sources on this episode's page at MaximumFun.org. Key sources this week include the book Beaverland, How One Weird Rodent Made America by journalist and nonfiction writer Layla Phillip. Also tons more material from the Smithsonian National Zoo, the BBC, National Geographic, and more. That page also features resources such as native-land.ca. I'm using those to acknowledge that John and I each recorded this on the traditional land of the Canarsie and Lenape peoples. Also, Katie taped this in the country of Italy. And I want to acknowledge that in my location, John's location, and many other locations in the Americas and elsewhere, native people are very much still here.

That feels worth doing on each episode. And join the free SIF Discord, where we're sharing stories and resources about Native people and life. There's a link in this episode's description to join that Discord. We're also talking about this episode on the Discord. And hey, would you like a tip on another episode? Because each week I'm finding you something randomly incredibly fascinating by running all the past episode numbers through a random number generator. by running all the past episode numbers through a random number generator. This week's pick is episode 90, about the topic of Worcestershire sauce,

a sauce whose history is almost exactly like a joke on The Simpsons, where Principal Skinner remembers the food in Vietnam. So I recommend that episode. I also recommend my co-host Katie Golden's weekly podcast, Creature Feature, about animals, science, and more. And again, many thanks to our special guest this week. I hope you know John Hodgman from all of the various things he does. And of course, Judge John Hodgman is where he and bailiff Jesse Thorne dispense justice every week here on Maximum Fun. Check it out if you haven't. Our theme music is Unbroken Unshaven by the

Budos Band. Our show logo is by artist Burton Durand. Special thanks to Chris Souza for audio mastering on this episode. And extra, extra special thanks go to our members. Thank you to all our listeners. I'm thrilled to say we will be back next week with more secretly incredibly fascinating. So how about that? Talk to you then. MaximumFun.org Comedy and culture. Artist owned.

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