Secretly Incredibly Fascinating - Labor Unions

Episode Date: October 18, 2021

Alex Schmidt is joined by comedians/podcasters Matt Apodaca, Heather Anne Campbell, and Nick Wiger ('How Did This Get Played?' podcast) for a look at why labor unions are secretly incredibly fascinating. Visit http://sifpod.fun/ for research sources, handy links, and this week's bonus episode.

Labor unions. Known for work. Famous for strikes. Nobody thinks much about them, so let's have some fun. Let's find out why labor unions are secretly incredibly fascinating. Hey there, folks. Welcome to a whole new podcast episode. A podcast all about why being alive is more interesting than people think it is. My name is Alex Schmidt, and I'm not alone. I'm joined by three incredible guests today. Matt Apodaca, Heather Ann Campbell, and Nick Weiger. Three incredible guests. I'm very wealthy in friendship. Feels good. Matt and Heather and Nick are the three co-hosts of How Did This Get Played, which is a very, very funny Earwolf podcast about the worst and weirdest video games ever made, and some joy about great games, too. There's a lot there.

And these three have many, many other things going on, too. Matt Apodaca is an amazing improviser. You've probably heard him guesting on Comedy Bang Bang. Heather's an amazing improviser as well. You can see her on Whose Line Is It Anyway on TV. Also a wonderful writer. She's been part of The Twilight Zone, Rick and Morty, SNL, to name just a few. And Nick is co-host of an amazing podcast called The Doughboys, and he's written comedy for Disney+, Hulu, Comedy Central, one of my favorite Funny or Die videos of all time. These folks are up to many, many, many things all at once, and I am so glad they fit in a whole nother taping to come hang out with me about unions. Also, I've gathered all of our zip codes and used internet resources like native-land.ca

to acknowledge that I recorded this on the traditional land of the Canarsie and Lenape peoples. I recorded this on the traditional land of the Canarsie and Lenape peoples. Acknowledge Matt and Heather and Nick each recorded this on the traditional land of the Gabrielino-Wartongva and Keech and Chumash peoples. And acknowledge that in all of our locations, native people are very much still here. That feels worth doing on each episode. And today's episode is about labor unions. That is a patron chosen topic. Many thanks to John Ford for that suggestion and for your general support of the show in general. Thank you, John. Also, thank you to Phil Stewart for cheering this one on. This topic is a

humongous one. It could be hundreds of hours long. Also, the stuff we've got here is relatively dark, I think, mainly just because unions have been through a lot and faced a lot of friction as they've gone around. Also, one thing to fill in briefly, because we're going to touch on it at the top, we're going to talk about the IATSE strike. IATSE is the shorthand for I-A-T-S-E. That's the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, which is a union in Hollywood that, as of early October 2021, has voted to go on strike. IATSE is a humongous union. A few of the jobs included in there are cinematographers, operators, grips, editors,

costumers, makeup artists, writers assistants, set painters, script supervisors, production coordinators, and craft services. We won't talk a ton about their potential strike because it wasn't resolved when we taped this, that we didn't know what would be going on when you hear this. There will be writing and links in the show links about what's going on with them. And I think that's all you need to know. So please sit back or fill out a card that says, yes, you'd like to collectively listen to this podcast with other people who also filled out cards. It's coming together. Either way, here's this episode of Secretly Incredibly Fascinating with Matt Apodaca,

Heather Ann Campbell, and Nick Weiger. I'll be back after we wrap up. Talk to you then. Heather, Nick, Matt, this is amazing. Thank you all so much for doing this. And, of course, I always start by asking guests their relationship to the topic or opinion of it. And, you know, any of you can start. But how do you feel about labor unions? I'm for them.

I'm in favor. I'm a member of, I'm actually a member of, I believe, four different unions, and I lose count a little bit because some of these are semi-lapsed because they were jobs that I did in fields that don't really work anymore. But WGA, I'm an active member of the Writers Guild, DGA, with the Directors Guild, SAG-AFTRA, which is for actors, and IATSE, which is about to, as we're recording this, I'm not sure where we'll be when this episode releases, is in the midst of a labor struggle. They have passed a strike authorization vote. I'm saying they, because this is a elapsed membership of mine. They have passed this vote with a 90% turnout, 98% yes. So it's an enormously powerful thing that they've done.

But I have an old IATSE membership because they represent animation writers for certain shows. So yeah. So I think my count's at four. Heather, you have to be in at least a couple of unions. Yeah, I'm in the Writers Guild. I'm in SAG-AFTRA. I'm in IATSE. I'm also in the Songwriters Guild. Wow. Because I've written enough music over the years that I get residuals from songs that I've written. And my relationship to unions is, as a former libertarian, is pro. Oh. And I could go into that if I wanted to, or if you wanted me to, I could.

Like, were you anti as a libertarian and now you're a pro well i used to think that i was anti but the more i thought about what market pressures meant uh i was like but unions are a response to market pressures like the union, the market functioning as it should means that unions should exist because it is a responsive measure. So even if you even if I was still a libertarian, I think I'd still be pro union because it it's like that. That's how the free market adjusts. Right. But you'd be against you'd be against driver's licenses. Yeah. I think

if you can find your way into a car, you should be allowed to drive it. And I guess I'll say, for me, famously, Union Buster.

That's a real source of tension in the podcast. Yeah, yeah. I'm pro-union. I'm not currently in any unions, if there are any reps listening. Union reps? Yeah. You're a shop steward?

By the end of this, you will be a pipe fitter. We're going to make it happen. Please, oh please. Yeah, I'll take any. I'll join any union that will take me. I was previously in the union for, I worked at a grocery store. I worked at Albertsons. And I had to join, I guess, the grocery union.

I don't know what it's called now. And I remember thinking positively of that, but also being 19 and not really understanding what it meant logistically, but that I could get a discount to Knott's Berry Farm if I wanted to buy tickets through them. So that was something that I, yeah, that was like a benefit of joining. I was like, okay, I'm listening. You got discounts? Let's talk. And then you got discounts. Let's talk.

And it sounds like they made like they made sure maybe your fellow co-workers or something. They were like, oh, now that you're here, join up. Right. Or was it just like something that was told to me because like people that work at grocery stores are either just started working there or have been there for 40 years. And so everybody, all my like best friends, when I worked at the grocery store were like 50 years old like they're like started working there like uh forever and i would always be like the younger people that i would work with i'd be like you guys are a little too extreme with me i gotta go have a little caesar salad in the break room with susan thank you very much and like they would they would tell me like hey get they got me like take they caught me to like

adopt a cat from a box from the like from the parking lot of the grocery store. I listened to everybody older than me that I worked with. They were all really nice. This topic's a patron pick, but I chose you guys as a group because I figured some or all of you are in unions right now. And I also had no idea there's a union that grocery workers are in, which is probably foolish. That's probably well known to people, especially if they've done it. I wish I knew more about it. Yeah, I think it's a reasonable assumption because so much of the service industry is not, you know, we are a service economy, but so much of the service industry is not unionized.

And if you think of, honestly, probably the biggest grocery sellers in the country, which I assume are Walmart and Target, are, I believe, non-union. Walmart's certainly non-union. But yeah, I only know that they're unionized because there was a strike in California of Albertsons workers and Albertsons-affiliated grocery stores. So it was a period where you had to go to, this is when I had less money, and so to not cross the picket line, you had to go to a more upscale grocery store that was more expensive just to honor that. So now you are also being like, okay, well, now I've got to go Whole Foods or Bristol Farms because everyone's picketing at the Albertsons and the Vons. But that was in the mid-2000s. That was maybe before you worked there, Matt. Yeah, because I started working there right out of high school so like in 2009 but during i was there for almost i think i was there for like

four years almost five years um i wish i knew how to utilize like like the union like when i was in it because looking back i was like oh i definitely needed their help because like there was times where i you know i'd stay and i'd be working longer than I should have probably, or like someone's not working. Somebody didn't come into the work in the butcher, like in the butcher block. Could you cover the butcher block? I'm like,

that didn't seem like something I should be doing. I'm not, I don't think I have a food handlers permit or like a certification to wield that sort of like that blade or whatever, whatever they got back there. No. But yeah, I would always end up and I did everything at that store. And I'm like, they probably shouldn't have let me do that. It seems like probably not a good, good thing that they had me do. Like a union rep sees the tape of you and all the different departments sped up and they're like

just sweating like how yeah yeah just like where was i just truly bouncing around every single department and doing a bad job in every single one like just like just eating writing on cakes and stuff like just had the worst time they're they would like want something written on a cake and i would be like are you absolutely? Cause I'm the only person back here and I can't do it. Just like watching, watching like balloons that I'm filling up fly into like the lighting fixtures and like sparking just like, yeah, I'm at some balloons again. I hope you do that balloon thing.

And then a union refs behind you like, you can't fire him. That's just how it is. They did not want to fire me. They wanted to keep me there for 100 years. They loved me. I guess because I didn't question them for making me do stuff I probably shouldn't have been doing. For me, I'm not in any unions but

grocery stores makes me think of the recent experience of avoiding buying nabisco because as far as i know those workers are on strike and turns out a lot of the cookies are nabisco it's very hard to get cookies so many avoid that yeah but i avoided it it felt great well and now there's another kellogg's has a strike that like I think I think just maybe started this week. So as of this recording. So it's like they're, you know, hey, hopefully there is there is an ascendancy of labor power in this country, particularly in those sectors of in the food supply chain where workers are usually treated so so awfully. But, you know, we'll see. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if any of your parents were in unions, but I think of my mom being a classroom school teacher

for a long time and I'm immediately like, Oh, that's union work. Even though there's so many other kinds. Yeah. Yeah. My mom was a nurse, which I, I believe she was, she was in the nurse's union. Yeah. I think, uh, I think my mom was in she worked in a um school cafeteria for a bit uh and i bet that that was a union uh experience uh but prior to that she was not in a union and neither was my father um so unless there was like a carpentry union, which there might have been. Who knows? Possibly, yeah. That means Jesus was a union man. Right. That is what that means.

Well, because if there was a carpentry union, he was a carpenter. Right. Yeah, no, 100%. Follow your logic, and it's flawless. I was going to say that I kind of wish i was in a union now because i i would like to join anybody going on strike because i think i'm just really good at holding a sign like if you need me to hold a sign it's like i don't care i'm there absolutely let's go

that's a specific skill because you'll get you'll fatigue quicker than you think holding a big sign yeah i'm like no it's not me. I could do this all day. What leads you to believe you have side skills? I don't know. I just feel like I would have a fun time also. I'd be proud of the sign that I wrote probably, so I'd be agonizing over what the sign is going to say and be like, oh, God, is this funny?

Is this good? And then when I get there and be like, some of these signs, some of these signs, they're not so good at it. That's what they came up with? Look at this sign. And really just using pride to propel what I got on the sign. I had the opposite of experience.

I was on the bus headed to a protest, and I had a fucking cardboard sign that I made with like like you know like a back of a shoe box and i the top of a the lid of a shoe box and like a sharpie it just looked like absolute shit and there was there was someone sitting at the front of the bus that was clearly going the same place i had just like an amazing like big sign with like a stick attached to it. And I was like, I look like an a**hole. Show me up.

It's true. The last March I was in, because you're seeing the back of everybody's signs, a lot of them are the box the product came in. And so occasionally I'd just be like, I wonder if that fan is good. Because I'm just seeing it for a mile in front of us, five rows ahead if there's anything like if there's anything that's been i mean most of the world's been

discouraging i don't know why i said if there's anything that's been discouraging but if they're like in regarding labor specifically when you see things like it's like the the you know an amazon the amazon warehouse that tried to unionize and you're like oh that would be so huge if they did it and then just like you know the the corporate power to be able to just sort of like like scare everyone uh into uh or or misinform everyone into you know voting against unionization that effort collapsing like it's like there's there's an aspect of like, oh, it's encouraging that this effort was even made. But man, you really you know how bad life is for people inside those Amazon warehouses because the workers will just say how bad it is. And then it's still so tough, so difficult, such a challenge to get, you know, a non unionized workforce to come together, particularly with with U.S. labor laws. workforce to come together, particularly with U.S. labor laws. Yeah, that's true. Well, two things with that.

One is, we won't talk about it much, but as of late September, that Amazon warehouse in Alabama is going to get another chance. Hey, there you go. People investigated and found that Amazon did a bunch of illegal stuff, like having ballot boxes on company property. And so they get another chance to unionize. Not my amazon doing something tricky like that what what the heck jeff i know like the river amazon i can't believe it myself and then the the other thing is that it that everything you said nick that leads into

the first chunk of the show. Because on every episode, our first fascinating thing about the topic is a quick set of fascinating numbers and statistics. And this week that's in a segment called, I'm a numbers boy. To me, stats are joy. Math is classic. It's fantastic. Yeah!

Oh, this is so up my alley. Is everyone Matt and Nick? Is that the thing? Did I like get booted into some like alternate universe? Yeah, you're

in a matrix where everyone's f***s. All those green characters coming down, but it's just our faces, like, enjoying this. But that suggestion, that was from Kevin Amend. Thank you, Kevin. We have a new name for this segment every week. Please make him as silly and wanky as possible. Submit to SifPod on Twitter or to SifPod at gmail.com. And there's a few numbers about unions because the first number is outside the US. It is 66.1%. That is how

many workers in Sweden were part of a labor union as of 2017. So almost two thirds of Swedish workers are in some kind of union some way. Whoa. That's like, I mean, that's clearly, it's going to be, I'm sure, way more than in America, but I still kind of, for whatever reason, that still seems low or lower than I'd expect for a Scandinavian nation. I don't know. For whatever reason, I like have this concept of like oh yeah those these socially democratic states where like everyone is unionized still it's still very good they would probably have more higher numbers if there was like a carpentry uh union but all their stuff comes from ikea so you could do it yourself i almost couldn't even say it i was so pleased i lived in uh the netherlands for a chunk of my life and uh was told that there was a you know

obviously prostitution and sex work is is legal there uh and one of the first things you find out is that they have a union uh so they have health care they have rights uh they have organized lobbies that uh that um yeah it's it's not like i it's a joke in movies you know oh we're gonna go to the red light district but really it's like if you're going to make this kind of work the safest it can possibly be, then there also has to be a union present to represent the labor, which is pretty neat. Yeah, that's awesome. When you were in the Netherlands, was it Boom Chicago where you was performing there? Yes, I was there for almost three years. Great country,

great city, great job. Unfortunately, the Boom Chicago employees do not have a union. It's about to escape. Yeah. So we, I mean,

if you're willing to live, if you're willing to move across the world to work as a comedian, not a lot of labor protection. I mean, if you're willing to live, if you're willing to move across the world to work as a comedian, not a lot of labor protection. I mean, there's the there's the regular labor protections that are present in the Netherlands, which are great. Like, you know, I could go get dentist work done or walk into a hospital and not be in debt for the rest of my life. I call that in in place. life like all that in in place uh and there are also like uh protections for labor that are built into the government even if you don't have a union so if you're at a certain job for a certain length of time in the netherlands you cannot be fired like unless you have like unless you've done

something grossly negligent you can't just be fired and replaced by somebody else you there there's a huge burden of proof on your employer past a certain length of time so like your your job is protected uh but if you're just like a uh you know a 20 something doing stand-up and improv and sketch um you're being you're being paid in pocket change and you're so you're like oh god i'm so hungry yeah uh but you're but where are you gonna go you know like and also uh nick when you were surprised by the number, I'd say you were basically right. It turns out that the Pew Research Center says Sweden, in recent times, it's around two-thirds union members. But as recently as the year 2000, it was over 79%.

Wow. So that's actually like a pretty sizable recent drop in Swedish unionization. And they say that across the OECD countries, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, it's like free market democracies. Basically, all of them have seen a drop in union membership since the start of the millennium. Wow. And it's all related to IKEA? The meatball union took a big hit. That's a union meatball. I't know it's not anything there's there's still italian it's just no matter it's not even it's not even like where it is it It's just the meatball affiliation. It's Italian. Well, and the next number here is 10.8%.

10.8% is how many U.S. wage and salary workers were in a union as of 2020. So very different from Sweden. So depressing. Oh, man, that's a bummer. Awful, awful. Yeah, that's a bummer. Awful, awful country. Yeah, it's not very money. But we've got more billionaires, am I right?

Come on, guys. Yeah, and that's more than 14 million U.S. workers because we have a large population. The next number, looking backward, is 20.1%. In 1983, that's how many U.S. workers were in a union. So from 1983 to now, they cut it by half about. Not even a quarter of the workforce was unionized, and Ronald Reagan rockets into office basically saying, like, this has to be put to an end.

This is a problem. basically saying like this has to be put to an end this is a problem and then meanwhile known criminals like jimmy hoffa being like hey the union very good yeah that that's really true about reagan uh when next number here the next number is 48 hours and 48 hours is the amount of time offered in President Ronald Reagan's ultimatum to striking air traffic controllers. And I had heard of this story, but I didn't know that part. NPR has a rundown that on August 3rd, 1981, a union called the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization went on strike. And they all work for the FAA, so it's a federal thing. And that same day, Reagan gave a speech where he said they had 48 hours to come back to work, or else they would be fired and they would

be barred from ever doing that job ever again. Oh my God. For anybody. And it wasn't because his speech took so long because he talked so slow? He said 60% fewer wells. We'd be out of here. And that's what happened, right? He just fired all of them. Yeah, and then it's as I understood the story before researching, he just went ahead and fired them. Reagan's administration made this 48-hour

ultimatum. They also found enough scabs to keep about half of US flights on schedule and still happening. And then about 13,000 of them went on strike. And 48 hours later, he fired 11,359 air traffic controllers. Most of them stuck it out, and he just went ahead and fired them anyway. So grim. Not looking good for my heroes, Reagan and amazon losing two in one podcast if it makes you feel better matt imagine him firing in his funny voice you know like oh yeah i saw you i saw you swing for it and then decide to go back into the dugout it's because you know what I was picturing? I was picturing specifically Michael Showalter doing Reagan in the Wet Hot American Summer series.

And I was just having a little laugh with that. Yeah, this came up on another episode a few weeks ago. Everyone has a Reagan, it turns out. Right, yeah. Like that little soft well. Everyone has it. Well. We possess it. Yep, yeah. Wow. ago everyone has a reagan it turns out yeah like that little soft well we everyone has well we possess yep yeah wow you know you know that that envelope that apparently uh uh you know u.s presidents get that that's either like the secrets the joke the joke version is that it's uh and i

forget who's what stand-up does this uh which is that you open up the book and it's an angle of the JFK assassination that you've never seen before. And that's all it is. And you're just like, oh, okay, I understand. I think I know the comedian. It's, what's the deal with JFK? Can you imagine if Seinfeld told that joke? But what if they get the envelope and they open it and all it is is it just says, all American presidents go to hell.

And then you're like, no. Well, all right. Oops. No. Well, all right. Oops. It was really truly the, you know, I think I was born in 1980. And so basically what I've lived for is just the general, I've lived through basically the general decaying of the American empire. but also just like the workforce being further immiserated by, you know, austerity and just an erosion of labor rights at both the state and federal levels.

It's really, really discouraging. And so that's why like the small bits of encouragement you can take are things like, you know, hopefully this IATSE effort and, you know, like the Nabisco, the Kellogg strikes. And anytime you see labor kind of asserting itself, for me, that gives me like a little bit of hope. So I was born in the 1700s. And for me, I'm still reeling from the fact that kids aren't allowed to work anymore. I mean, like, you want to talk about like, you want to shift the labor force a little bit.

Get those 12-year-olds back into the factories. And my generation wants to abolish work. Oh, no. Matt, stop TikToking about abolishing work. Are you doing, like, one of thoseoking about abolishing work. Everyone doing like one of those dances. I feel like labor is almost like due to start being active again, striking again. And it's partly these signs of it doing things,

but also according to the New Yorker, that air traffic controller strike breaking was a really big change. Because during the 1970s, the US averaged 289 major labor strikes per year. So almost one a day. Wow. And then in the 1980s, due to this, it fell all the way to 83 strikes per year. And in the decade of the 2010s, the US averaged 14 major strikes per year. So that's just kind of not a part of labor in the U.S. anymore, even though it's an important tool of a union in a lot of cases. It's so rare. And thankfully, it doesn't seem to be the case with IATSE. But what's happened is that there's the high-profile labor stoppages, for ones I remember, you know, like the, the WGA

strike in the, in the mid two thousands, I wasn't a member then. Um, but you know, they, they went on strike for a while. And then, you know, certainly like some of the, the, the labor stoppages and pro sports, these are like unions with wealthier memberships that have these higher, they're in these higher profile fields. And so like that, I feel like the reaction to that from both the media and from the general public has sort of been like, what are you complaining about? I go to my job, you know, it's kind of been like these, who are these spoiled rich people going on strike when their job is to throw a ball into a hoop? Which I think has not, which I think has not, you know, helped organized labor in the U.S.

Which I think has not, which I think has not, you know, helped organized labor in the U.S. either. Just like that having, that being that gut reaction of like, it's, you know, again, because no one else is unionized, they don't see the value in it. Yeah, well, it does seem specific, doesn't it? Like my mindset with my mom being a teacher, I was like, oh, unions are for like teachers and a couple other jobs. Baseball, that's about it. But no, it can be most workers that's not right i was gonna say i feel like my exposure my early exposure to like what a union was was like on sitcoms when somebody would be like oh the union and like punching in and punching out like a time card or something and just being like i don't know what they're talking about yeah why am i watching this i don't know what's going on, but that guy works at a donut shop

and has a two-story house. And someday that'll be me. And also the U.S. isn't the only country this shift has happened and talked about Sweden a little bit, but next number is British. It is 6.5 million. That's how many British workers were in a union in 2013, according to The Economist. And that's a huge drop from 12 million unionized workers in 1979. So 1979 to 2013, about half of British workers are no longer in a union, especially because

the population grew in that time. yeah and their sort of that's wild version of the reagan air traffic thing is margaret thatcher crushing a mining strike three for three in 1984 yeah so sorry about your hero margaret thatcher yeah yeah that's gonna take the framed iron lady poster off his wall yeah just tear it slowly in half crying there was a move wasn't i think there was a i learned about this because you know not it's not like british politics ever really breaks through in u.s media but so i learned about this through a movie i think it was called brassed off that was just basically about a bunch of workers at a mine that Margaret Thatcher closed who were just sort of like, well, we got nothing to do. And so they formed a brass band.

It was just like, you know. Yeah. It wasn't a movie. Kind of a cute movie. What a joyful take on it. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's also like they're in. I kind of put it in the same mind as the Full Monty, A, because it's British.

I mean, it's also like they're in, I kind of put it in the same mind as the Full Monty, A, because it's British, but B, because it's the same sort of thing. It was just like these people are kind of like, well, we're out of work. We need some way to make money. What if we do this? What if we try this wild thing? Yeah, and it was a very, very long strike. It lasted almost a year. So I'm sure people did things like that.

Like, ah, now we're a band or something. Right. Why not? Yeah. It was a band or something. Right. It was a 362-day strike, and it ended with absolutely no concessions to the union. And Thatcher didn't just decide to stop it. She, years ahead of time, was planning to crush it, because I guess there were signs it was coming. Her government secretly stockpiled enough coal to keep the UK running for six months. They made secret deals in advance of it to have non-unionized drivers transport the coal. And then there have been documents declassified in 2014 that revealed that Batcher's backup plan for bringing the coal around was to use the British

military if she couldn't use the drivers and then they used police to like physically attack and injure the the miners too so it was just it was all the bad things all at once man and she got away with it yeah well one thing rotting in hell with reagan well um the one thing about like one thing i will say that, you know, in the U.S., we have this kind of still this this regal reverence for presidents. We'll see. I mean, honestly, we'll see it when Trump dies. There will still be like a state funeral will be sort of like the solemn occasion. It's just it doesn't matter. That's just how everyone every president treated.

I remember when Thatcher died, there was like people just like at the people just like holding up middle fingers to the procession. And they'd like interview like some old British woman. She'd be like, I'm glad she's dead. Like, it's just like, that's great. Paddington said that. That's a hard guy to upset. Yeah. Yeah, he kept his hat on.

It was very rude. Yeah, he turned around and he lifted up the back of his little coat. It showed his butt. He moved him. His cute little butt. It was adorable. Next thing here is a big trumpet sound for a big takeaway. Before that, we're going to take a little break.

We'll be right back. I'm Jesse Thorne. I just don't want to leave a mess. This week on Bullseye, Dan Aykroyd talks to me about the Blues Brothers, Ghostbusters, and his very detailed plans about how he'll spend his afterlife. I think I'm going to roam in a few places. Yes, I'm going to manifest and roam. All that and more on the next Bullseye from MaximumFun.org and NPR. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year.

Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. Linda, and last number here takes us into the first of the main takeaways for the show number is 13.6 percent that is how much more an American union worker earns than a non-union worker on average they earn 13.6 percent more and that takes us into the first takeaway takeaway number one. Statistically speaking,

labor union membership has huge benefits for you and the people around you. Yeah. It's really good. And even in like surprising ways that we'll get into. For sure. Unless, unless,

unless you're the boss. Right. In which case, yeah, everybody around you has got these benefits, but what's happening on your end, you know? You made the company. Shouldn't you?

I made this company. Where's the bosses union? You know what I mean? Well, we got to get the, who do we get involved here? We got to get, we get Springsteen on the horn. We get the boss baby. We get Springsteen on the horn. We get the boss baby. We get Hugo. And then...

I guess that guy, that the bagel, that, oh, the bagel boss. Yeah. Big boss man, maybe. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Big boss man. Boss hog as well. There you go.

You pulled Hugo boss. Yeah. yeah yeah yeah big boss man boss hog as well there you go you you pulled hugo boss yeah it's it's it's i will just say like having i the the non-union internet right internet video and uh you know one non-union tv job job I had doing the same thing of writing. And then those versus the Writers Guild jobs I've had, those jobs were A, harder and B, like paid way less. Like went from like, I can, I'm, this is like survival level compensation to like, oh, okay, I can kind of have a little bit of comfort now, you know? Yeah. It's wild what a difference it makes. compensation to like, oh, okay, I can kind of have a little bit of comfort now, you know? Yeah.

It's wild what a difference it makes. And it's for like that unsurprising reason. Workers are able to collectively bargain and make it happen. And then the other benefits are really exciting to me. But that 13.6% number comes from a book that's a source for this. It's called Beaten Down, Worked Up, The Past, Present, and Future of American Labor by journalist Stephen Greenhouse. He says that that 13.6% higher pay is the figure after you adjust for age and education and other differences between workers. Unionized workers are more likely to have retirement plans, more likely to have health care. And that adds up to basic higher life expectancy, too. have health care. And that adds up to basic higher life expectancy, too. But then the more surprising stuff from there, one of them is that statistically unions decrease the gender pay gap across American

industry. He says that women in union work earn on average 94 cents per dollar a man earns, which is not perfect, or maybe not even good. But it's better than the average of 78 cents per dollar a man earns which is not perfect or maybe not even good but it's better than the average for of 78 cents per dollar for women at non-union jobs that's a that's better than it could be well let's get that let's get that extra six percent baby yeah like i'm a little bit surprised by it almost like the union should just even it out i think so that's actually kind of frustrating but uh yeah it's it's it's different than the other thing well oftentimes with it feels like with a collective bargaining you're bargaining for like a base rate and some some basic protections but like you know what happens is a lot of people will get the the inequities will come in when

people get their their their personal deals okay negotiated for above minimums so like i just just like in the just in the like the the the writing side of things it'll be like these two people are both staff writers but this one person were able was able to have their reps negotiate a higher rate and oftentimes that's where like a gender inequity will come into place, come to play. Hmm. Is that what's happening, huh? I get it now. Okay. Yeah. I understand it.

Yeah, I wish I had a way to know. Now I'm thinking of the huge pay disparity in American sports by gender. Like male athletes just make millions on millions more than female athletes do. And it's unfair. Maybe that's swinging at some, but it's also probably some basic unfairness too. Well, that's because, you know, you get paid less when you win more. And, you know, like the U.S. women's soccer team, like knocking it out of the park, except with soccer metaphor.

Right. And that reduces their pay like 50 60 you cannot win those that many many games you have to like you have to internationally and then you can get paid the big bucks i am i am three podcasts away from becoming Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2. Like, just like... You could pull that off, though. I mean, we'd all be better for it. It would be, yeah. If you keep podcasting with Nick and I, you might be one away.

podcasting with Nick and I, you might be one away. Oh no, that's this one. Please don't leave. Please don't leave. Please hold out. Well, the next benefit here is that union membership statistically lines up with more racial tolerance

among its members. I don't like that. union membership statistically lines up with more racial tolerance among its members. Slate covered a 20. I don't like that. Sorry. You're going to have to bleep this one. I don't like that f***ing word, tolerance. I don't like it. Like, I don't like that word.

It's, ugh. We'll put up with it. That's kind of like what the tone of it is. Like, hey, we don't like this any more than you do but you gotta we gotta do this okay right guys doing time cards like can you believe this and you're like yes it's a big world what's why are you yeah that's absolutely right uh and and the the study we've got here it's it's slate covered a 2020 study from a team at Princeton and at the University of Washington. And they found that union membership reduces white racial resentment toward African-Americans.

And they also found that union membership was negatively associated with support for Donald Trump. He got more white union votes than past candidates, but the union aspect still decreased it versus the population wow so that's something you know well i know what a bummer across the board that last couple of statistics was right yeah oh man i uh he is marginally better know, we're no longer like. Yeah. I guess the next one fits that, too. But it's the union membership makes you more likely to vote. And, you know, not enough Americans are voting.

That's great. Yeah. That's great. According to Jake Rosenfeld, a sociologist at Washington University, St. Louis, across U.S. stats, union membership increases voter turnout by five percentage points. What? Five? Five? You set that up with like, I was thinking like 95. Here we go. Five percentage points. According to the Department of Labor, union membership increases life expectancy by an average of seven days. If you're a woman in a union, you can look at your male coworkers just a little less angrier.

less angrier it is you know you these studies are all coming from from universities but a lot but so often it feels like you'll read like about these same universities trying to crush their own unions like they're they're unions of of uh you know janitorial employees or um you know dorm cafeteria employees or grad student unions. Like they're all they're just like they're it's it's just like that interesting thing that kind of happens at all. Like these are these liberal spaces that are commissioning these these, you know, liberal studies. But they're also like but they're also like, you know, doing everything they can to short shift their their workforce.

Yeah, it is. It's if people don't know, especially grad student unions are a thing that's like forming at a lot of universities. And right. It's like it's like you say, Nick, like you would think the administrator it like puts down their lots of just the hackiest stereotypes of a liberal like spit out their New Yorker and then like, oh oh i guess i should help these guys but no they're not doing i am a new yorker print subscriber and i drink lattes almost

daily so hold the coffee he says he just wants that hot milk and then the the last stats here this is from uh it's from an article of the new yorker by uh caleb crane i was not reading far down at my own thing uh but he he covered a few more surprising benefits and he says that statistically the children of union parents earn more when they grow up than the kids of non-union parents. And that's for a whole bunch of reasons, like the stability of the jobs that the parents have and then the community there and everything. And then most amazingly, children also earn more when they grow up if they are raised in a neighborhood with many union families, even if their own parents are not members. Like just that overall societal stability is apparently a boost too. The tide, you know, raising the, raising the ships and whatnot. Yeah. All the ships. That's how it goes. Not just some of the ships.

Is it, is it, is, is union, are unions depressed simply because there is a minority of people who are in charge of messaging? Is that it? Why else would there be such thin union membership and declining union membership across the board? Yeah. Like internationally. Yeah. That's a good question.

Is it just because the media is owned by those six companies or whatever? I think probably that has something good question is it just because is it just because the media is owned by those six companies or whatever i think probably that has something to do with it you know when you get like a uh just just like the increasingly power these increasingly powerful stateless you know global corporations that can kind of just sort of like can can take their workforces wherever it's just a race to the bottom in terms of of labor sort of like can can take their workforces wherever it's just a race to the bottom in terms of of labor protection so like yeah i think that that that probably has a fact that do with it and it probably has a lot to do with it that plus the the media convergence you mentioned huh yeah it's it's a bummer when i'll link a link an article

from gallup they say that in general a a majority of Americans think unions are good and feel positively about them. It also super splits by party. Sure, sure. Yeah. And then apparently, in the past few decades, the biggest thing undermining American unions is what are called right to work laws, which are named in the most tricky way possible, because it means you can work a place without having to join its union and then people just don't pay the dues and don't join and then the union goes away yeah it's a it's it's that that up is down messaging that you know the republican party is so good at of like yeah i support right to work i'm in favor of right to work but yeah when you dig deeper it's like well yeah it's the

it's the free writer program with unions that you can work a job and not have to be a union member and then eventually its power declines it's that it's that stuff that makes me then like watching something like squid game being like yeah i could see why you would do this like why why you would try right well well isn't a part of it too also the the you know the is because because there's the there's card check right and card check is well if we get enough people to sign a union card we can organize a shop we can organize our workplace but you know the the corporations always want an up or down vote and it's another messaging thing where like if you're appealing to uh to voters who have their own things going on you're appealing to average people

who don't have time to like you know dig in on politics and understand the nuance of it you're like card check i don't want my i don't want a card check what is that uh but an up or down vote that's good that's pro-democratic where when in fact what ends up happening is the the up or down vote, that's good. That's pro-democratic. When in fact what ends up happening is the up or down vote is like what happened with Amazon that you mentioned of just like then now this corporation controls this thing and they're stuffing ballot boxes or whatever. What unions are and how they work, I just wish people got it more or else knew that they were voting in a way that is opposed to them. Because then there's this poll where people are like yeah union sounds good but then they they pick things that don't do it right well we got another big takeaway for the main episode here that we can get into and it's takeaway number two labor unions created clothing tags? That originated from union practices and how they labeled union-made stuff. So they're to blame for why my neck is so itchy.

That's the second time I told this joke. Yeah. Because we had to retake that. Yeah, because of tech issues. And we had to retake that. We had to retake that. I insisted. When tech issues. And we had to retake that. We had to retake that. I insisted. When the internet was out, I started shouting at everyone.

I was like, we have to have it. It's the joke that makes us. And this is the part where we completely lost Heather. Do you guys, I mean, maybe we're just using a different word to describe things. I mean, sure. Okay, sure. Are you confusing the definitions of words and jokes? Because you're saying words a bunch. Yeah.

When are you with you there? words a bunch yeah when are you with you there so sorry so uh so the uh the main source here it's a tedium.co article by ernie smith and uh it's a quick story but uh we're we're pretty used to clothing tags being for like sizes and for what the stuff is made of. But he points out that the first major U.S. law that required those kind of tags passed in 1960. Before that, maybe manufacturers want to do that, but you didn't really have to. But he says that before that, the first common clothing tags were union tags. It was a tag that just said this garment was made by a union worker, and thank you for buying it. And that was common by the start of the 1900s in the U.S.

It also, the practice started with cigar makers adding them in 1874. Those were the very first union labels and tags in the U.S. But union tags stayed common for most of the 20th century. There was also a union called the International Ladies Garment Workers Union, or ILGWU, that had TV commercials with a song called Look for the Union Label to promote buying union clothes. That was kind of what tags were for, for a long time. Union clothes. Like that was kind of what tags were for.

I like that. For a long time. By the way, we have to note, Matt is giggling, I think, because his girlfriend is petting their cat with a broom in the background. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's being a little pissed. Can you even get a union garment like a union made like i know you can get american made clothing but can you get an american made union made garment can you buy one so i i was like i

got to guest on jackie cation's podcast the dork forest which is awesome and i got to have a shirt for doing it and i was like stunned by the tag because it was a U.S. made union made T-shirt. Wow. And I read it. Exactly. That was what I did when I saw it. I was like, this is incredible. I didn't know that's a thing, but she's supporting them and they're doing it.

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the only time I've seen a U.S. union made garment from the present day. I think that's the only time I've seen a U.S. union-made garment from the present day. Because Smith's article says also, like, union tags are now mainly used by vintage clothing sellers to, like, figure out when a garment is from. They can kind of date it by the way it's written and stitched. That's depressing.

Yeah. Oh, man. But also, and then also there's, like, an extra wrinkle where we're just kind of moving away from clothing tags in general. Like in 2002, there was a Hanes campaign with Michael Jordan celebrating their tagless T-shirts. And nobody saw that and said like, what are they, anti-union? It's just like a thing now. Tags are just for sizes and stuff. Yeah, it's a comfort thing. Yeah, hey, you know what?

I don't mind that. I get a shirt with no tag. The shirt I'm wearing now doesn't have a tag. Oh, wait, it does. But it's a good tag. I get a shirt with no tag. The shirt I'm wearing now doesn't have a tag. Oh, wait, it does. But it's a good tag. It's a good tag. It's not itching my neck. And then there's one last quick takeaway for the main show.

Takeaway number three. Labor strikes date as far back as ancient Egypt. And they didn't totally have the concept of labor unions in ancient Egypt, but this is a practice that is normal is the point. It goes back thousands of years. Wow. Wow. Is that why the Sphinx doesn't have a nose?

Nick. Nicholas. we have we have an opportunity here we have we have an opportunity to get heather back and this is how you use it she's not coming back she's doing chin-ups right now. I've sort of, I've mastered the art of simultaneously being like awake and in a coma. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, it's really, you know, you guys just can, you can do your stuff. I'm here, but like my brain is completely shut off. Do you know if that's why the sphinx doesn't have a nose i just i just we didn't get an answer to it because because of a labor union

dispute yeah you know what i'm sure that's what happened i'm positive that's what happened let's just move on what you. Put it in the history books. Well, the quick details of it. This is a story from the year 1170 BC. So more than 3,000 years ago. Sources are Lapham's Quarterly and the Journal of Near Eastern Studies. But in 1170 BC, Pharaoh Ramses III was focused on building huge tombs. This was after the pyramid times.

They were doing the tombs in the Valley of the Kings. So he was focused on huge tombs and also spending a lot of money on wars. And so there are like pot sherds with a written record of the tomb workers walking off the job. Wow. Because they had stopped paying them their food and clothing and ointment. That was the payment for being a tomb worker and digger, was those three things. And so they walked off the job.

Gotta get that ointment. Yeah. I want to know everything about the ointment. Like, maybe it was awesome and I can't get it now. Give us some of this ointment. The feds, i don't know if it's so good that you're gonna walk away from your job for not getting it i gotta get this ointment it must be good true it's probably awesome in that case yeah

it rocks and the the other thing about these workers is, this is the Journal of Near Eastern Studies, quote, These were a very special group of men. They and their ancestors had lived in the same village in the Theban necropolis, made tombs in a single locality, and maintained themselves principally by hewing and decorating the tombs of successive pharaohs, end quote. successive pharaohs end quote so this like labor unions didn't exist as a concept really until the industrial revolution but and there were guilds and stuff before that but the point is like that description makes me think of like a union industry in town and you know like there's like stability and generational passing of the job and stuff and it's from a long time ago how about that yeah so that's a good thing wrap it up that's a good thing feels good yeah it's pretty cool you have to go literally a thousand years in the past but that's encouraging Folks, that is the main episode for this week.

My thanks to Matt Apodaca, Heather Ann Campbell, and Nick Weiger for organizing with me to make a fun podcast. Anyway, I said that's the main episode because there is more secretly incredibly fascinating stuff available to you right now. If you support this show on Patreon.com, patrons get a bonus show every week where we explore one obviously incredibly fascinating story related to the main episode. This week's bonus topic is the surprising and more interesting truth about Luddites. That's right, Luddites, a trope most people know, a, you know, a reality that most people don't. Visit SIFpod.fun for that bonus show, for a library of more than five dozen other bonus shows, and to back this entire podcast operation. And thank you for exploring labor unions with us. Here's one more run through the big takeaways.

Takeaway number one, statistically speaking, labor union membership has great benefits for you and the people around you. Takeaway number two, labor unions created clothing tags. And takeaway number three, labor strikes date back as far as ancient Egypt. Those are the takeaways. Also, please follow my guests. They're great. All three of my guests co-host a podcast called How Did This Get Played? How Did This Get Played is on the Earwolf Network. It's a show about the worst and weirdest video games of all time and the experience of trying to play them on purpose and also stuff about the best games and how much joy there is in them and everything in between. And then

individually, Matt Apodaca is an amazing improviser. You can hear him guest on Comedy Bang Bang and elsewhere. Heather Ann Campbell is also an amazing improviser. You can see her performing on the new season of Whose Line Is It Anyway? Also going to have links about Heather Ann Campbell's writing as well. Nick Weiger co-hosts the Doughboys podcast with the Spoonman Mike Mitchell. Amazing podcast about all of the food in the world and being very funny about it. And I'll link anything else that slipped my mind when I sat down to tape this, because these folks have a lot going on. There's going to be a robust guest link section,

because they're awesome. Many research sources this week. Here are some key ones. A great book titled Beaten Down, Worked Up, The Past, Present, and Future of American Labor, and that's written by journalist Stephen Greenhouse. A great article in particular for stats from The New Yorker, it's by journalist Caleb Crane, and it's called State of the Unions. Also a wonderful article from Ernie Smith at tedium.co about union tags, plus all kinds of stats from the U.S. government and academic studies and more. Find those and many more sources in this episode's links at SIFpod.fun. And beyond all that, our theme music is Unbroken Unshaven by the Budos Band. Our show logo is by artist Burton

Durand. Special thanks to Chris Souza for audio mastering on this episode. Extra, extra special thanks go to our patrons. I hope you'll love this week's bonus show about the Luddites and so much more. And thank you to all our listeners. I am thrilled to say we will be back next week with more secretly incredibly fascinating. So how about that? Talk to you then.