Secretly Incredibly Fascinating - Paprika

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

Alex Schmidt and Katie Goldin explore why paprika is secretly incredibly fascinating.Visit http://sifpod.fun/ for research sources and for this week's bonus episode.Come hang out with us on the SIF Discord: https://discord.gg/wbR96nsGg5

Paprika. Known for being spicy. Famous for being reddish. Nobody thinks much about it, so let's have some fun. Let's find out why paprika is secretly incredibly fascinating. Hey there, folks. Welcome to a whole new podcast episode, a podcast all about why being alive is more interesting than people think it is. My name is Alex Schmidt. I'm not alone because I'm joined by my co-host, Katie Golden. Katie. Yeah. What is your relationship to or opinion of paprika? Paprika. It's, it's, uh, it's good. You know, I feel like it is the red powder that makes things taste just a little better. You know, not, not way better, but you know, a little bit better. You know, not way better, but you know, a little bit better. It is one of the five spices. I'm joking. There's four spices in that. It's very beef and dairy network. There's four meats and there's only four meats. Yeah. Yeah. There's five spices, paprika, salt, pepper,

onion, and other. Red onion, yeah. Yeah, what about you, Alex? How do you feel about paprika? This was very revelatory to research because I mainly thought of it as a red spice that I think adds some heat, maybe. But in my experience, I haven't really tasted that. And after researching it, I think I pretty much know why. And it's mainly because I don't live in or near a few places in Europe that have a different experience of it. I have had different types of paprika here in Northern Italy. Some are not spicy at all,

and some are very spicy, which is interesting. Okay, good. Yeah, you've sampled it then. Good. I have sampled it. I have sampled, going to make a Dune reference at some point in this show. Just you wait. You're ready for it. Yeah, this is sort of one of the first episodes about a spice. We've done lots of different foods and things that are like seasonings, and there's an episode about MSG that I think is particularly great. But this is truly one of the things in the spice rack. And we've never done salt or black pepper or something.

So, yeah, this is kind of exploring a new thing. It's fun. Right. We haven't done one on the Spice Girls yet either. So that's an oversight. Even though we live in Spice World, you know. But, yeah, I mean, again, the Spice Girls, there's So that's an oversight. Even though we live in Spice World, you know? But yeah, I mean, again, the Spice Girls, there's five of them, right? Or there's six. How many Spice Girls are there? Oh, there's five.

There's five? Yeah, five, once again. See what I'm saying? It's always five spices. Yeah. This is a Pentagrams episode now. This is great. Feels good. It's all connected. I'm going to draw the Spice Girls on the floor and summon them. I'm going to assume paprika does not come to us just as a powder, right? Like we don't go to the paprika mines and shave it off of some kind of paprika mineral like salt. That's a perfect transition because usually we start with stats and numbers. This week I want to start with the basics of what it is because I didn't quite know.

And I think a lot of people don't. By the way, thank you to Carrick, Chris, lots of other folks on the Discord for suggesting this and picking it in the polls. There was a lot of paprika enthusiasm because I think people want to know. And to get into what it is, let's do a mega takeaway number one. I'm excited. Paprika is a spice made of chili peppers from South America and Central America originally, which gained a complex role in the cultures of Spain and Hungary through Spanish and Ottoman imperialism. Interesting. That's interesting because, again, in the U.S., I feel like paprika is often not

at all spicy, but chili peppers in general are spicy. So something happened. Yeah. And I think especially here, we turn to Mexican and Southwest U.S. culture for like a chili powder that we turn to for this is the hot spice from chili peppers, from that kind of fruit. Hmm, interesting. So we're kind of different. So chili peppers, they are indigenous to South America? Yes, yeah. Okay, so how'd they make it all the way over to Spain then? Interesting.

Wonder what happened there. Gosh. Yes, good predicting. Yeah, one more time for that mega takeaway because there were a lot of parts. Paprika is a spice made of chili peppers

from South America and Central America, which gained a complex role in the cultures of Spain and Hungary through Spanish imperialism and Ottoman imperialism. So we'll do that whole progression. But one of the trajectories is that Spanish armies invaded what's now South America and Central America and took a bunch of stuff. Oops. Yeah. Yeah, pretty famously. It's well known.

Yeah. Yeah. Pretty famously. It's well known. Yeah. Because like also there's a lot of things that come from Central and South America that did not exist in Europe until the plundering, like other other fruits and so on. And even like things like I think chocolate, right, was not not a European thing. Yeah. Chocolate wasn't there. I think one of the ones that's the most not top of mind for Americans and relates to this is tomatoes. Yeah. Realizing, oh, yeah, what I think is Italian food came around after the Columbian Exchange. Yeah. They needed to bring tomatoes over. Pizzas without red sauce were so non marinara, they used to just be basically bread with cheese on it, and maybe some other stuff. So pizza Bianco, you know, like white pizza.

Yeah, yeah. So paprika, in today's world, it's most famous for being from Hungary and differently from Spain, but there needed to be a Colombian exchange first to do that. That's weird, because I do not associate paprika with Hungary. I associate it with Spain, but not Hungary. Yeah. And most Americans don't, but it turns out if you go, it's like distinctively Hungarian. We will talk about Hungary a whole lot this week. Wow. Get excited for Hungarian stuff, folks. It's great. Yay, Get excited for Hungarian stuff, folks. It's great.

Yay, Hungary. I'm hungry for Hungary. Yeah, and for this mega takeaway, there's mega sources. One book called The Field Guide to Peppers. That's by food writer Dave DeWitt and commercial pepper farmer Janie Lamson. Also a book called Paprika, Foie Gras, and Red Mud, The Politics of Materiality in the european union that is by university of illinois sociologist zusa jeal and then digital writing by hallie p sellers for jay store daily sylvio martins for bon appetit and jennifer billick for smithsonian magazine because because paprika

it's made of peppers and and peppers could be a whole episode we haven't done that a few different things that we call pepper or peppers could be their own episode. And we're talking about produce, so not black pepper. We're talking about stuff like chili peppers, bell peppers. They're all fruits in the genus Capsicum. A lot of us think of them as vegetables. They're technically fruit, which is very similar to tomatoes. Both tomatoes and peppers are in the nightshade family of plants, and they are fruits that culinarily Americans think are vegetables. I see. Right. So tomato, a fruit. And so I should put tomatoes in fruit salad, is what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. Just big pieces of that and blueberries, pineapples. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. So like ketchup is technically a jam. Pineapples. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah.

So like ketchup is technically a jam. Wow, pretty much. Yeah. You're just jamming up your burgers, baby. Yeah. Let's get this squirtable sugary jam on my fries. Yeah, Chicagoans should have been telling people to not put jam on their hot dogs. Everyone would agree. It would just be an easy sell from Chicagoans. Speaking of fries, I remember there was this big trend in the US of putting paprika on fries. Is that still, I feel like that's no longer a thing. Because I remember distinctly like

restaurants would try to zhuzh up their fries by sprinkling some paprika on it. But the thing was, this was the kind of paprika that was not spicy. So it was basically just making the fries look a little bit red. Yeah. Red sprinkles. Yeah. Yeah. The big thing right now is za'atar on fries. It's going great. What is? It's really good. Za'atar on fries. That's like an actual spice though, right? Yeah. It's fantastic. Very flavorful. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I think that's better than, not necessarily better than paprika in general, because like the spicy actual flavorful paprika is very good. But when it's like, I'm hoping we're going to get into later what is up with the flavorless, spiceless red powder that is sometimes called paprika, because that stuff on fries doesn't

do anything. It does nothing. Yeah, the way we're going, we'll talk about three different broad kinds of paprika and how it can appear flavorless, especially if you live in the United States or Canada or somewhere like it. I hope we're taking on big paprika, uncovering the conspiracy of this red powder that they tell us is a spice.

And yet, what does it do, really? Pretty much. We don't have companies to call out specifically, but yes, we'll get into why. Hell yeah. The truth is out there. Take them on. And this began pretty specifically with Christopher Columbus, unfortunately. Boo!

Boo that man. Because it turns out all pepper fruits in that genus Capsicum, that covers most of the peppers folks have heard of, and they're all from the Americas. So everything from bell peppers to cayenne peppers to shishito peppers, it's from original ancestors in what's now Bolivia and what's now southern Brazil. It's all South American fruits that evolved and got cultivated into various stuff. And that the spiciness is caused by the capsaicin, right, that is found inside these peppers? Yeah, good call. Yeah, that's where this name comes from, capsicum. Yeah.

This spread all over South America and Central America very long ago without human intervention. It was just a plant that did well in the ecosystem. And then as human communities formed, native people cultivated all sorts of peppers. For example, the Nahuatl-speaking people in what's now Mexico, who were many of them triple alliance or Aztec people, they had dozens of pepper varieties on their own and usually grew that in a little garden. And then they'd have stuff like corns and beans and squashes and big fields. One Nahuatl thing that's really stuck with this food is the word chili. That's from the Nahuatl language spoken by Aztec people and other people. So that's pretty cool. Yeah. The different name pepper is unfortunately from Christopher

Columbus personally. Oh man, that guy. And this is sort of like the broad thing where people in the Americas got called Indians. Oh, okay. A lot of Christopher Columbus's mission was to specifically look for what I usually call black pepper, which is very biologically different from these fruits, bell peppers, cayenne peppers, etc. Yes. Idiot. Come on, Columbus. What's wrong with you? but it came from East Asia. It was expensive for Europeans. And so Columbus on his voyages, he brought black peppercorns with him to show anybody he found to ask, do you have this? Are you a new source of black pepper? And when he met Taino people in the Caribbean,

they didn't have black pepper, but they had various chilies. And he tasted that and said, this is also spicy. Can we brand this as just a different thing that's just as good as black pepper? And so he and other Spanish people called them peppers to try to run an economic scheme. I see. So it's just sort of branding. It's like calling, I can't believe it's not butter. It's butter, right? If you're like, no, don't call it I can't believe it's not butter. Just say it's butter. Yeah, like go all the way. Yeah. Yeah, just go all the way. It's butter. It's butter with a question mark. It's butter. Yeah. And so one of Columbus's big excitements other than the crimes against humanity was chilies. And he like personally brought them to the court of the Spanish monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella and

handed them to them, you know. And so within a few decades, people across the world are growing these various chilies with great excitement. Part of why Europeans even have the name chilies for them as well is that Dutch spice traders didn't like the Spanish scheme and said, let's brand them as chilies because that'll just make clear that our black pepper that we worked really hard to colonize is black pepper and different. The classic feud between the Dutch and the Spanish. Soccer and this, that's it. Yeah. Soccer and this.

That's it. Yeah. So this trade in pepper fruit, it goes all over the world very quickly because even though it's not black pepper, it's also really good. Chilis are great. Yeah, it's good. The spice we call paprika is somewhat specific to Hungary and to Spain. It's distinct from chili powder and other spices like that. Hungarians begin developing paprika shortly after people bring chilies there. There's two possible ways chilies got to Hungary.

Both of them involve the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans. Surprise. The Ottoman Empire is here. Wow. They conquer and then they put their feet up. Yeah, those relaxed imperialists. Yeah, they really knew how to kick back. And the Ottomans were mostly in the eastern

part of the Mediterranean and other regions over there. They also start having military conflict with a kingdom of Hungary in the 1300s, Hungary's in Eastern Europe. And the conflict starts with Hungarians invading the Ottomans in religious crusades. Well, that's bold. So what was the Hungarian team religion? It was Christianity. Okay. Across the Reformation, they went more Protestant, but Catholics and then Protestants.

And the Ottomans, it was Islam, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And as this military trend reverses, the Ottomans were also relatively religiously tolerant. They were mainly Muslim, but when they conquered a place, they generally let that place keep worshiping as it wanted to. Right. There was also a lot of, they would allow areas that they've conquered to essentially also keep their culture in addition to their religion, where there was some cultural diffusion,

of course, but it was also like, hey, keep doing what you're doing, but now we own you. Now you're part of our empire, but we're not going to force you to convert and we're not going to completely change your culture, except for there was some cultural changes because then there was more trade within the empire. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Like, yeah, when they invaded a place, it wasn't with the goal of imposing a culture, but for sure, taxation, military recruitment, that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. They, they certainly took resources and imperialism. Yeah. It was not, it was not so much about the ideology. Yeah. It's sort of a contrast with Spain, I guess.

Spain was like, this is our deal. We're building missions. Here we go. Get it, losers. We are building missions. I drop in a clip of nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. You know, that kind of vibe. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Oh, you got me. I was not expecting that. Yeah. Like a British comedian would say. A timely reference, Alex. A timely, fresh, it's a fresh reference. Fresh ref. And so then in the 1400s, after some Hungarian crusades, the Ottomans start invading Hungary. And the Kingdom of Hungary included... I'm sorry, but Hungary started it, right? Did Hungary attack the Ottomans first or did the Ottomans attack Hungary first?

Hungary started it and also the Ottomans were relatively expansionist. So they might have done this either way. They probably would have eventually done it, but... Yeah. I see. They apparently were also interested in, you know, if we conquer Hungary, keep going, was their thinking. You know, what about the rest of Europe? It could be Ottoman.

It'd be fun. Yeah. And so they invade Hungary and also have wars with other European countries, especially Venice, the Republic of Venice, a lot of naval fighting. And Venice being a port city was extremely wealthy, extremely, extremely wealthy owned by a very, very fancy wealthy family. And so the whole the idea of the Venetian mask and masquerade and this like extremely fancy, ostentatious display. There's like a reason for that. And that's because it was so well connected to aquatic trade. Yeah, totally. And the Venetians don't really get conquered by the Ottomans, but the Hungarians do. It was because the Ottomans like took one, stepped one foot into Venice and saw the eyes wide shut masks everywhere. And they're like, no, thank you. Actually, maybe you shouldn't be Ottoman.

masks everywhere. And they're like, no, thank you. Actually, maybe you shouldn't be Ottoman. And the Ottomans didn't have the password, right? So you can't get in the sex house. We don't know the safe word and we don't want to find out what's going on here. Yeah. It's, you know, I know they were like usually pretty cool about letting people keep their culture, so they're like, we don't know about this one. And yeah, so in Hungary, two trends kind of happen on top of each other in the early 1500s. One is that parts of Hungary get conquered by the Ottomans, especially in 1541, the Ottomans take Buda. What? Which is the future roots of Budapest.

Oh, I thought they just took Buddha. I thought they kidnapped Buddha. You're just like, they took Buddha. Oh, the religious figure. Yes. Yeah. It's a homophone for that. Yep.

Yeah. They took him. He's like, why am I in Hungary? It was surprising. Yeah. You just have a very Buddhist Liam Neeson going like, why am I in Hungary? It was surprising. Yeah. You just have a very Buddhist Liam Neeson going like, I have a set of skills. You took my Buddha. Yeah.

And once they took future Budapest, then most of Hungary becomes Ottoman territory for more than a century. And that happens at the same time that pepper fruits are really becoming a big hit in the rest of the world. And so it could have happened two ways. Either Spanish traders gave them to Italians who gave them to Ottomans or East Asian traders because there was a Colombian exchange between the Americas and Asia. The other way could have been East Asian traders brought them to India, which had Portuguese colonial trading cities, which could have given them to the Ottomans. Or both, or both all at the same time, a real game of pepper telephone. Yeah. And so then because of this Ottoman trade and influence, chili peppers get introduced in Hungary and Hungarians get way into making paprika, partly because southern

Hungary is the perfect growing conditions for chilies, and to this day. I can see why they would get into chilies in general, right? But you don't need to turn chilies into paprika. Why did paprika become such a phenomenon versus any other form of preserving or cooking chilies? That's a good question. Yeah. Paprika lasts longer than a fresh pepper. Right. And some of the first Hungarian foods with it, in particular goulash, were foods that people who were sort of roaming herdsmen on the plains could make on the fly. And so if you just have a package of paprika, that lasts a little while to do that.

It seems like transportation would be easier too with the powdered form. Cause like, even if you have a bunch, you can preserve peppers by drying them and they last a long time. But if you powder them, then you have a lot more of it and a lot less space. So if you have limited space, limited weight, like a dried out desiccated powder is going to be as potent maybe as like a full pepper, but then easier to kind of travel with. Yeah, instead of trying to keep produce going, they just had a bag in their herdsman stuff or other transportable stuff. Right. Man, goulash on a road trip sounds so good. Right. Man, goulash on a road trip sounds so good. Yeah, and that's really where it got going. And in southern Hungary, a city called Szeged and a town called Kalacsa are then and now what's called the Hungarian paprika belt, the region around those two cities.

They grow humongous amounts of peppers that then get processed into paprikas. Is that still the main supplier of paprika to like Europe? Yeah. And in particular, Germany. But it's mainly an export thing. Yeah, they use a ton of it and ship even more of it. And yeah, and from there, paprika has become a core element of Hungarian national identity. In a way, a lot of people don't know, especially

in the late 1600s, royal forces of the Habsburgs push out the Ottomans and make Hungary a Habsburg place. Those are the Chin guys, right? Yeah, the genetic weirdos. They put all their genes in Chin. You never want to put all your money into chin and all your genes into chin. You want to diversify your genes. But they put it all on chin. Your skill tree. Yeah. They maxed out all the sliders on chin.

Yeah. The Habsburgs, who were the royal family of many countries, partly by keeping their genes kind of narrow. Incest. Incest. Incest is what we're talking about. Which, by the way, we have a bonus podcast. No, we don't. We do about the, you piss, us piss. Oh, yes, right.

About the, what is the show that we're watching. The Habsburg Inspectors. The Habsburg Inspectors, yeah, the Postal Inspectors. Anyways, I'm sorry, back to Paprika, and we won't talk any more about incest. Yeah, the Hungarians from there, even kind of to this day, there's been a project of building a Hungarian national identity because larger powers like Austria and the Soviet Union have sort of made Hungary part of their sphere. And then at other times, it's been more independent. And one of their biggest national identities is food. And they put paprika in everything is the gist. It's not even really a stereotype.

According to Zuzagil's book, on restaurant tables, there will be a salt shaker, a pepper shaker, and a paprika shaker in Hungarian restaurants. If the Hungarian paprika is what I think it is in terms of the paprika that I've had in Italy, where there's like some good, there is good flavorful, spicy. It's not like super, super hot, but it is spicy. But it also just has this very rich flavor. If that's the paprika that they're churning out, then I think it should be on tables everywhere. Yeah. And when Hungary first started making it, it was a spicy, aromatic, very flavorful paprika. And after that, they developed a not spicy sweet paprika that still has a lot of flavor, but it's different and is most similar to the American stuff. The sweet paprika I've had as well. But even that, even though it's not spicy, it is still, I feel like,

more flavorful than American paprika that I have had. Yeah, totally. And both of those have generated an entire Hungarian cuisine of goulash, which is like a meaty super stew full of paprika. There's chicken paprikash. There's a sweet pastry called paprika bread. It's truly throughout Hungarian food. The LA Times interviewed Hungarian chef Kalman Kala, who simply said, paprika symbolizes Hungary. And when Hungary joined the European Union, they got special protected designations of origin for paprika from around Szeged and Kalaksa.

Because it's sort of like champagne from that part of France or Parmesan Reggiano from that part of Italy. It's extremely iconic and specific, and it has trade protection. You can't just call anything champagne. It's got to come from Champagne, France. Champagne, France. Yeah. I'm trying to think of national spices for other countries, and it's not so clear to me. Yes. Even with like, and sometimes the stereotype is just not true. So for Italy, I think people would say like, oh, garlic.

But no, that's not, they do not use garlic any more than any other cuisine, an Italian cuisine. That is interesting to have a very strong national identity tied to a single spice. Exactly. There's not really a U.S. equivalent, and not just because the U.S. is very multicultural, but I was trying to think of an equivalent, and the best I could come up with was some hot sauces. Velveeta cheese. Velveeta. Yeah.

some hot sauces. Velveeta cheese. Velveeta. We have a giant cheese storage, underground secret cheese storage facility in the U.S. Yeah, we do. We turn it into Velveeta. USA. So I feel like American cheese is more of a,

it's more of a chemistry substance than like an actual cheese. But yeah, dumping melty cheese on stuff is kind of our paprika. That's right. That's true. That's like our paprika. That's our Waterloo. And yeah, and it also turns out the word paprika is from the Hungarian language. Oh, really? A Hungarian language word, paparka, which is from the Bulgarian piperka, which is from the Latin piper, which simply means pepper. So it's just a very Hungarian word for peppers that has become the name of this spice. It's a nice name. I like it.

A lot of P sounds. Ika. It's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. There's like a K in it, which gives it a little paprika. It's fun to say, and it has a good mouthfeel. And it's a little bit of onomatopoeia for what the taste of good paprika is.

It really fits. And Hungary is making broadly two kinds, the spicier kind and the sweeter kind. There's a lot of varieties from there. The third big world kind of paprika is smoked paprika from Spain. Okay. And specifically one landlocked region called the Extremadura. This is very illuminating for me because I have sweet paprika, I have hot paprika, spicy paprika, and I have smoked paprika in my spice cupboard.

You have all three. Nice. Yes. I have all three. And in the US, most people have a bad version of the sweet kind, in a way we'll talk about a little later. That's it. I'm excited. I can't wait for the conspiracy because I noticed this is so cool. This is so validating because I noticed this where it's just like, hey, the paprika is better here.

Nice. I kind of attributed it to the fact that there's a spice shop near us. And I went and I got, I was like, man, this must be a really good spice shop. But maybe it's everywhere. Exactly. Yeah. Anytime Americans have good paprika, they tend to just attribute it to, oh, I must've bought from a good shop or a good provider. I'm going to march back into that spice shop and be like, Alex told me you're not so special. No, they're very nice. No, no, no, no.

They're very nice. They're very sweet. I ruined a good thing. No. No, they're great. And their tea is good, too. I think it's both that they are a good shop and also they are getting the spices from the probably hungry in Spain. Yeah, you're a short distance from all the good kinds.

Like, that's great. Yes. Yeah. Because Spain is specifically distance from all the good kinds. That's great. Yes. Yeah. Because Spain is specifically one region called the Extremadura. It's landlocked in western Spain on the Portuguese border. And we know the trajectory here. Columbus and a couple other people brought chilies to Spain. And then this one region, monks there started developing new varieties. And they made a paprika that is smoked. They do an extra step where there are giant smoke houses. They put thousands of peppers in there,

use oak logs to make fires to smoke them. And it tastes different. It's kind of both spicy and sweet all at once. And the Spanish name for this is pimentón. It is good. Here, all three varieties I like. I like the really spicy kind, which I assume maybe that's the non-sweet kind that comes from Hungary. I like the sweet kind and also the smoked kind or a mixture of all of them. And that makes sense because they are all dried and ground up red peppers. It's not that different. It's just that people have found these culinary differences that are so great. So my husband, Brett, he's very good at cooking chicken and it's always delicious.

He once made it with this paprika breadcrumb sort of mixture thing, but he used a lot of the paprika because we're used to having to do that in the US, right? It's like to get any flavor out of this, you just have to put a ton in. It was so hot. It was very good. This is the thing. It was delicious, but it was surface of the sun levels of hot. And I was just, I was crying and still eating it because it was, it was so delicious. I was willing to suffer the pain and just tears. And he's like, he's like, are you sure it's okay? Like, no, it's good. It's good.

You did a good job. You know, that, that kind of international thing, it brings us into the stats and numbers for this episode because we've established how many things paprika is and where it's from. Let's get into more stats and numbers about it in a segment called... How's it feel to be at the center of numbers to linger in stats and math? I opened the SIFT pod and found the numbers number statistics, a river of stats and figs. Oh, figs like figures. Yeah, not the fruit, which would also be a great topic.

There's a lot of things going on here. I don't even really know if they're fruits. I just assumed. Oh, man, now I want to teach you about figs because I know stuff. But anyways, continue. That name was submitted by Felicia T. We have a new name for this every week. Please make them as silly and wacky and bad as possible. Submit through Discord or to sifpot at gmail.com. And the first number fits those paprika varieties because it is three. first number fits those paprika varieties because it is three. Three is the number of different flavors of paprika Pringles that are sold in Germany and other continental European markets.

Oh man, I have to try them. I'm going to see if I can find them. I don't think I've seen Pringles here. I'll look for them. Yeah. I don't know if Italy has this chip culture, but Germany, the Netherlands, a few other countries there, they have Pringles in sweet paprika, classic paprika, and grilled paprika. And that maps onto sweet Hungarian, spicy Hungarian, and smoked Spanish paprikas. They have three different Pringle flavors for the different paprikas. That's only fair. Now I do feel like I want to go on the hunt to see if we have any of those in stock here. I feel like maybe if I go to Lidl, because Lidl's... Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Okay, I'm going to do that. I'm going to go to Lidl and see if they have that. I don't think I have any paprika Pringle access here in the U.S. That's almost as sad as the U.S.'s health care system. It's number two problem. Yeah. And I don't mean to be mean about it because I think it's a serious problem, but they're both very serious issues. Something about them both starting with P, paprika and Pringles, it just feels so natural. It does. It works.

But I think if you presented it to American shoppers, they'd be like, why would I want flavorless red dust on my Pringles? That's not interesting to me. How many packs of paprika powdered Pringles can you purchase? Yeah, but Germany is the number one importer of Hungarian paprika by a fair margin, and they've experienced it. They want snacks in these flavors. Yeah. I see. It's probably mostly going towards the Pringle industry in Germany. Big Pringle. Big Pringle.

Yeah. And as I Googled for, can I shop for this here? One of the first results was a Reddit post Big Pringles. person seeking Pringle packages powdered with paprika. Big P episode. Yeah, for sure. The next number here is six months. That's a good one to know, folks. Six months. That is one food expert's recommendation for how often you should throw away and replace paprika. Gasp. And this is food writer and Cook's Country deputy editor Megan Ginsberg. They say, quote, paprika loses its nuanced flavor with age, so we recommend replacing it every six months or so, end quote. And that's its own mini takeaway number two. Paprika expires. Mm-hmm.

Paprika expires. Like not dangerously, but it gets old. That's one of the biggest reasons people in especially the U.S. think it's flavorless is you probably have stale paprika that's just worn out. Once in the U.S., I tried to use some expired paprika on some hummus because I like to put a little bit of paprika on hummus. I think it classes it up. There are little bugs in it. Little bugs. No. Yeah. little bugs in it. Little bugs. No.

Yeah. Little bugs in there. Yeah, that's tough. Yeah, that was – I didn't continue on with that hummus. And you know what? Maybe I could have started some new culinary trend, but I decided not to. Right, because you can eat bugs, but it's not standard. Always check your, I guess like another benefit replacing your paprika is you lessen the chance of small bugs getting in there.

Yeah, and most spices do lose punch over time. But now that you know paprika is made out of fruit, right? Like red peppers dried up at ground up, like that does have a shelf life for its flavorfulness. And so that's one of the biggest reasons some cooks think paprika is not that flavorful is that they bought a container of it a long time ago, didn't use very much of it, and it just got old. I can see that. But I also do think that I have bought, like I'll go to Ralph's or Kroger's or whatever, and then I will buy new paprika because I am making a thing, and then I use it immediately. And I don't remember it ever

being as good as the paprika that I've had here in Northern Italy. So what of that, Alex? Exactly. And that is also going on, especially in the US. And according to all my sources, such as Dave DeWitt and Jamie Lamson's book, there's basically a thing where American businesses are selling low-grade paprika compared to Hungary and Spain and other places. And between the staleness confusion and Americans just having never had the good stuff, businesses can just kind of pass off bad or stale or old paprika as the normal thing. And that's led to people thinking that's how paprika works. It's just a cycle. It's gaslighting because all Americans have been gaslit to believe paprika is basically just

flavorless red powder you put on something to make it look fancier. It is indeed supposed to have flavor that's more than just kind of like musty book smell flavor. It should be stronger than that and better. Red books. Yeah. Red books. Like, hmm, now my fries taste a little bit more like a book. My favorite quote is New York Times food critic Craig Claiborne. He's passed, but he was there for many years. He said, quote, the innocuous powder, which most merchants pass off to customers as paprika, has slightly more character than crayon or chalk. Any paprika worthy of its name has an exquisite taste and varies in strength from decidedly hot to pleasantly mild, but with a pronounced flavor. Yes.

End quote. That's key because the sweet paprika I have gotten, it's not hot, it's not spicy, but it is flavorful. It actually adds, let me think, man, it's hard to exactly describe the flavor because it's kind of unique, but it's like a sweet flavor that's also a little bit – it's a sweet, musty flavor, I guess I would say. Yeah, that's the descriptions I've read. I have learned I truly have not had it. Wow. I've just had, like, the bad kind. And apparently the biggest comparable spice for Americans in terms of this misconception is bay leaves.

If you Google about bay leaves, there's a bunch of Internet resources answering the question of do bay leaves have flavor? What do they do at all? Because it tastes different from paprika, but a lot of Americans and other cooks have bay leaves that are stale or just not very good. Oh, yeah. And when you put that in to a recipe, usually you're not directly eating the bay leaf. You take it out or set it aside after it adds its flavor. But it's led some people to be basically bay leaf truthers. They're like, bay leaves don't actually do anything. It's just like a trick. And what would that even be? I have bought fresh bay leaves and they have a definitive smell and flavor and it does enhance soup for sure. Yeah. And good bay leaves are more gettable here than

good paprika. But either way, it's one of a few spices that some cooks have come to believe are just bad, but it's because of how the supply that some cooks have come to believe are just bad. But it's because of how the supply chain and world has been set up. There's actually amazing paprika. It's just hard to get in North America. I mean, that seems criminal. It seems like we should be having kind of a federal investigation into this. It's like false advertisement. It's a conspiracy.

I guess that's like a plausible FTC thing or something. Yeah. But who would push for it, you know? I mean... I guess the Hungarians. Yeah. I feel like the Hungarian-Americans should be pushing for this so that their culture is not disrespected. Yeah. And the good news here is internet shopping and the interconnectedness of the world. I haven't attempted it, but you can probably import the good stuff and look up reviews, look around. And it could be from Hungary or Spain or somewhere else that is just doing a good job. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. www.blackmarketpaprika.com. Right. Instead of the dark web, it's the paprik web or something.

Yeah. The red web, you know. Yeah. The red web. Folks, that's two takeaways and a ton of numbers. We're going to take a quick break so you can shop online, and then we'll return with paprika scandals that shook Europe. shop online, and then we'll return with paprika scandals that shook Europe. I'm excited for the scandalous paprika, which I would assume has something to do with the Eyes Wide Shut style orgy where everyone's snorting paprika off other people's butts or something.

Yeah, Tom Cruise brought some to set. They were like, this isn't in the script. He was like, don't tell me about these parties. I know. I did research. That's definitely a Tom Cruise move. He would do something like that. I do my own stunts, including paprika stuffing of people. Right. I have my own paprika. I'm Jesse Thorne I just don't want to leave a mess This week on Bullseye Dan Aykroyd talks to me about the Blues Brothers Ghostbusters

and his very detailed plans about how he'll spend his afterlife I think I'm going to roam in a few places, yes I'm going to manifest and roam and his very detailed plans about how he'll spend his afterlife. I think I'm going to roam in a few places. Yes, I'm going to manifest and roam. All that and more on the next Bullseye from MaximumFun.org and NPR. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney.

I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. And we are back with just a couple more numbers we had to take away.

All of it is Hungary-centric and impacts the rest of the world. In this situation, Hungary is like Arrakis, and paprika is like the spice, and... Yeah, the river Danube is basically a sandworm. Its area is great for growing paprika. Right, right. I don't know enough about Hungary to continue this metaphor,

so take it away, Alex. And the next number here is 1989. That is the year when Hungary... Hey, that's when I was born. Yeah. And Taylor Swift. And yeah. I'm the same age as Taylor Swift.

Yeah. She made an album called 1989. I think because she was born then. Okay. Well, you know, where's my platinum? Hmm. Born the same year. I know you mean the records, but I just thought about a brick of platinum.

Well, that's what I assumed thought about a brick of platinum. Well, that's what I assumed that was, a brick of platinum. How would you even play a platinum record? Like, how would that even work? Yeah, can't do it. Can't do it. And in 1989, the country of Hungary peacefully transitioned from Soviet-style socialist communism to democracy. Hey, you know what?

They finally made the flip basically when the USSR ended. They're like, oh, look, Katie's been born and Taylor Swift. They're both equally important, and I think we should switch to democracy. Right. Three things are a trend. So Katie, Taylor Swift, and now will be the third thing. Right. trend. So Katie, Taylor Swift, and now will be the third thing. We've done some old Hungarian history in this episode. The modern Hungarian history is that they were on the German side of both world wars. And after World War II, the Allies delegated managing Hungary to the Soviets who installed a long running communist government. In 1956, the Soviets sent tanks to crush an uprising against it. And amid all this chaos and turbulence,

Hungarians did not mess around with paprika. They kept that going. They remained a paprika leader in the world throughout this chaotic 1900s. You have to have terra firma, right? You have to have somewhere you can call home even in the midst of incredible political chaos. And if it's paprika, it's paprika. was sort of a period of chaotic privatization where a few people became powerful oligarchs as the government did not control some things and people opportunistically took them over. And according to Zsuzsa Gilles, that happened with a lot of Hungarian industries and not Paprika. Like the farmers and producers remained collectivized and nobody really did too scammy of a thing. And the industry stayed strong in spite of lots of other stuff getting kind of scammed. It's like it's sacred. Yeah, it's representative of Hungary and central to the culture in a way that, again, is probably a surprise to most listeners throughout the episode.

It's like, yeah. I think it's like, yeah. I mean, imagine if Velveeta, you know, like if, well, no country truly has lost its way if Velveeta production becomes corrupt. Yeah, if there's a cheese oligarch. Right. Yeah. And then the next number here is more than 83%. More than 83%. That's how many Hungarians voted yes in a 2003 referendum to join the European Union, well above the necessary threshold. Okay. I mean, it seems like, is that something that they have won successfully? Are they in the EU? Yeah. And the next number is May 1st, 2004. That is when 10 countries, including Hungary, officially joined the European Union as full members.

Wow. Ten countries on that one day. And I feel like for Hungary, they're like, all right, you guys can come in because you give us the good stuff. You give us the good red powder. Yes, Spain does as well. But without you, we would only have one flavor of Pringles, not three. Yeah, German snackers were like, we're doing this. Yeah.

Make it happen. People were like, those Pringles? Of course. And yeah, and May 1st, 2004, 10 countries joined the European Union, the single biggest enlargement of the EU other than founding it. And that was just 11 years after it started. People celebrated like, this is really the day when the European Union really steps up and becomes a thing thing. Like 10 countries joined that many of them had Soviet pasts like this huge. This was the day that the EU became president. Pretty much.

Yeah. They were like, now we're doing it. It's not just France and Germany and Western Europe. Now we're serious. And then the last number here is less than six months later. It's October 27th, 2004. On that date, the Hungarian government announced a ban on the sale of paprika powder, a ban on the use of paprika in restaurants, and a stern warning against any household use of paprika. Total paprika shutdown. That seems... In Hungary.

Odd for them to do that. Why did they do that, Alex? I thought they liked paprika. Yeah, it was a health scare. And also this is the core of takeaway number three. Paprika production scandals helped destabilize Hungarian democracy and the European Union. Ah. Oh, no.

Whoops. You know, this really is a Dune. It really is a Dune. My understanding of Dune is based on the David Lynch movie and also the Timothée Chalamet movie. And so I would say it's exactly the same situation. Yeah. Immediately before we started rolling, Katie said the spice must flow. I did say that. And I jumped out of my chair. It was like, save it, save it, save it. I didn't save it. Because yeah, it's kind of a dude. The spice must flow. Or it mustn't, I guess, if they think it's riddled with some kind of, I would assume, bacteria. What were they scared of? They thought it had mold or bacteria or some pathogen in it? Kind of all of the above. A mycotoxin produced by mold.

Okay. And the key, key source here is from previous takeaways as well. It's the book Paprika, Foie Gras, and Red Mud by University of Illinois sociologist Zsuzsa Gilles. She has a blow-by-blow of this crisis in late 2004 in Hungary. kind of like the FDA in the US. They did standard health inspector stuff for just all kinds of foods. In Hungary, most foods have paprika in them. It's not a stereotype. It's just like going on. And of the 72 paprika-containing commodities that they did a random inspection of, 13 contained aflatoxin B1, a cancer-causing mycotoxin produced by mold.

Yeah, that doesn't sound ideal. And it's tough because it's both not ideal and possibly something that they didn't need to do a crisis over. It's unclear. On the one hand, this toxin concentration was 16 times higher in some cases than the threshold permitted by European Union health rules. I see. And Hungary is newly in the European Union. They have to follow that, right? Like it's the rules. Right, right, right. Unfortunately, some health experts said that in order for that to actually give you in particular liver cancer, you would have to eat half a kilogram of the paprika per week. That's more than a pound. And even by Hungarian standards, they're not probably eating that much per week over a long, consistent period of time. You did make it sound like they might,

though, because you were saying that they put paprika in literally everything. They brush their teeth with paprika. So if anywhere, one would eat a pound of paprika a week. Yeah. So like a bunch of people for pretty good reasons said, this is a health crisis, shut down food with paprika. And a bunch of other people for pretty good reasons said, I don't know, man, you'd have to do comedy amounts of eating paprika. And then other people said, we eat comedy amounts of paprika. So it was an understandable back and forth. Could they have done something where it's like, hey guys, just cool it with the paprika for a while until we sort this out. Take it back a notch with the paprika eating. take it back a notch with the paprika eating? So they pretty much did and people were still mad.

What happens is this ban only lasts for about three days. So that's not that long. And yet, it's a big speed bump. People are like, oh, suddenly, when I go to a restaurant, most of the menu items aren't available because most of them contain paprika. And when I go to a restaurant, most of the menu items aren't available because most of them contain paprika. And when I go to the store, it's that feeling that a lot of Americans had at the start of the COVID pandemic where there's like stuff not on shelves and you're like, oh, I'm used to plenty. What's going on? Yeah, I could see how that would cause panic. Again, imagine the store and everything containing American cheese was off the shelves. Yeah. Or, you know, frankly, maybe even worse, anything containing corn, which is everything, everything has corn in it.

Right. Every chip, every cereal, soybean, corn. Yeah. It's like if we had a corn scare in the U.S., it would be, it would spark a civil war. Yeah. Like if you did that just for three days, a bunch of people would vote differently. Yeah. They'd be like, I blame the government and I'm voting for a new government. Yeah.

Like, cause corn is in all snacks and in even a lot of beverages. So yeah, if we had to like, if we had some kind of national corn scare, it might all devolve into chaos. Yeah. And, and the government knew that and hurried, the Hungarian government. They rapidly tested every food item they could. They kept up a running list and announcements of this is safe, this is safe, this is safe, you can have it. They also ultimately determined 48 different products were still unsafe for human consumption due to that

mold contamination. So that's probably a public health win. Like that's a lot of foods and it's good they checked for this stuff. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because, well, right now in the US we have the H5N1 thing, the avian flu going on with dairy cows. And I think it's, you know, you can see the process of the FDA testing things, right? Like looking for how this is happening, like in real time. And, you know, one might wonder like, well, why not just like, you know, as a precaution, just shut everything down? It's like, well, probably the amount of sort of like chaos and anger and stuff that would happen as a result of that is why they wouldn't just shut everything down immediately. Then you could have like incredible political blowback. And if you don't panic and don't shut everything down, well,

you know, some health issues could happen. Something really bad could happen. Exactly. Yeah. That one is even kind of the cheese band we theorized. Yeah. Maybe that's, you know. The cheese band we're talking about. Yeah. Fortunately, fortunately, pasteurization exists, which is something that, you know, is likely to help in this situation where it's like, I don't know. I don't know how you get rid of mycotoxins that are already in your paprika. Yeah. And it was basically some suppliers that got contaminated. You just fix it in the supply chain was the solution. And generally, paprika is pretty safe. I don't mean to spook people about it. Don't be afraid of your flavorless paprika in the US. No, but...

Right. I don't have to throw out my already expired paprika the U.S. No, but. Right. I don't have to throw out my already expired paprika. Phew. Yeah. This is like they use this kind of like premise in The Last of Us, though, where like some, I guess, like flour or something got contaminated with a mycotoxin and then everyone turned into zombies. But usually that doesn't happen. Yeah. Yeah.

And this didn't go that way. zombies, but usually that doesn't happen. Yeah, yeah. And this didn't go that way. So it was only a few days and yet it threw off people's day to day. And the biggest problem politically was that there was a specific villain, right? People said, these are European union health rules. So this thing we just joined is imposing a nanny state kind of health rule that is also throwing off our central spice of our culture. Right. The spice must flow. That's where I put it. That's where I put the spice must flow. Yeah. So did they want to do like a hungrexit? They did a different thing that's kind of worse for the European Union.

Oops. Interestingly, they also did this in spite of what turns out is a long history of paprika adulteration and health issues. There have been multiple times across the history of Spain and Hungary where there's just some kind of problem with the paprika, especially if a scammy merchant is adulterating it. Cutting in other things that look red is one of the things. What kind of things would they cut with paprika? The biggest recent Hungarian one, 1994, so that's after democracy but before the European Union, at least one seller was found putting powdered brick dust in paprika. Oh, God. Jesus Christ. Because it's kind of that color, but it's bricks that shouldn't be in there.

Oh, no. Oh, no. So people really were pooping bricks. Yes. And yeah, and Hungary in 1994 had two giant scandals around paprika contamination. One was on purpose cheapening it with brick dust. The other was that a few suppliers allowed lead to contaminate it. They think it was due to lead paint on containers. Oh. And so then dozens of people were in the hospital with lead poisoning from the paprika having lead in it. That's not great, I would say. Yeah.

And that one's more of an accident. That's just a, it's sort of like this mycotoxin thing. Like it's just a problem nobody meant to happen. Right. Or so we are told. Like they were lazy with paint, but it's still, you know. They weren't grinding up red paint, painting grains of sand red and calling it paprika. And Americans are like, tastes the same.

Using a tiny paintbrush, not even just dyeing the whole batch of sand, just with a paintbrush, each grain of sand. And that's a paprika. And that's another one. It's so much work. It's actually way more expensive than paprika. Yeah, yeah. And so both those 1994 scandals are interesting because the Hungarian reaction was somewhat nationalist.

You know, whether it's true or not, the investigators made a point of saying we checked how the lead contamination and the brick dust happened. In both cases, foreign people did it. Specifically, Ukrainians for the lead oxide, Romanians for the brick dust was the blame. And then they also blamed it on political change and the move from communism to democracy. And they made a point of saying all of these 1994 problems came from new mills that popped up in the new era of privatization. And they said, you can still trust the old established paprika belt mills around Sagat and around Kalacsa. You can still trust those. That's the real Hungarian paprika. It's still good. And this might be accurate, but they really made a point of broadcasting that, you know?

Right. It could also be that in more modern times, it was being tested more for problems. That's probably the main reason. But yeah. Because in all sorts of industries, there's cutting corners and people got caught. Or it could be foreigners. It could also be foreigners. People got caught. Or it could be foreigners. It could also be foreigners. And so in 2004, the nationalistic blame fell on the European Union.

And the other issue was that the Hungarian paprika industry was receiving new competition from producers in Latin America. They were also now in the same economic zone as Spain. So now there were different tariffs, there were different protections, and it wasn't necessarily as easy to thrive as a Hungarian paprika producer. I see, you had to compete with Spain. And I don't mean to overstate the impact. There has always been a relatively right-wing, relatively anti-Europe, relatively pro-Russia politics in Hungary. And before joining the EU, they had elected Prime Minister Viktor Orban to one term and his right-wing party that wanted Hungary to be closer to Russia rather than Western Europe and the

European Union. I think he's also, he's somewhat of an influence on our current prime minister, Giorgio Maloney in Italy. Yeah. And that's the thing. There's also been a general trend of right wing authoritarian leaders like Jair Bolsonaro, Donald Trump and all these other people. And so it's always and it's always like blaming immigrants where there may be some kind. Yeah, because usually what it is, is there's some kind of issue, right? Like in, you see an immigrant in your town and it's like, hey, this is change. And also, you know, like we have these problems and therefore correlation definitely always means causation. Always. Right. And I don't need to check or I'll let just one media source tell me that's what's going on.

Yeah. Right. And so Paprika did not totally swing this, but it was one of the first big speed bumps in the relationship between Hungary and the EU. Instead of exiting the EU, what happened is the right wing in Hungary gained more and more political power. In 2010, Viktor Orban won a second term and proceeded to sabotage Hungarian democracy more and more and has won several more terms in increasingly less valid elections. Paprika populism. Yeah. And so now the European Union has a full member who is not particularly democratic, is particularly pro-Russia, and in conflict with basically every other member, even though some other members have also gone this direction. Yeah. It's not, you know, like, great.

Yeah. And in 2018, the entire EU voted to censure Hungary as a, quote, systemic threat to the rule of law. And Orban has remained in power, basically single-handedly blocked the EU from doing more support for Ukraine and its war against Russia. It's helped Poland maintain extremely socially conservative policies. And there's debate in the EU about whether its charter allows the expulsion of a member at all. And the only reason this comes up is Hungary specifically. That's the country they would kick out if they could. It's so sad because if we could all just unite in our appreciation of three flavors of Pringles, like if we had sort of Eurovision, but it was like Euro Pringles, right? And each country contributed to flavoring the Pringles. Like maybe Italy would have like a basil Pringle and maybe France would have a, God, I don't know. I don't know if basil. Oh my gosh. A basil Pringle would maybe France would have a God, I don't know.

I don't have basil. Oh my gosh. A basil Pringle would be good, right? And France could have like. I'm going to try to make that at home. France could have, I don't know, I guess a butter Pringle. I'm not sure what France would do. Yeah.

England could have a horse testicle Pringle. We'll figure it out. We'll figure the details out later. But each EU country could come up with a Pringle flavor and we do a Pringle competition. And then, you know, I feel like that might, maybe they're just hangry and hungry. I do want to speak up for British crisps. The prawn ones are really good. But anyway, all the rest makes sense. Right. We've made some crisps out of jelly deals.

Doesn't that sound appetizing? Jelly deals. You know I love you, British people. Yeah. And mail us paprika chips if you can get them from outside the EU. We'd love it. I'm looking in my local Lidl. You don't need to mail me anything because I think I might be able to find them. That's true. I need them here. I'll mail you. I'll mail everyone. If I find them,

all you listeners are getting... No, I'm not doing that. I'm joking. I'm joking. But I'll let you know. If I can find them, I will taste it and I will paint a brain picture of the flavor for you. And thanks for listening to this brain picture, folks. It's been fun. It's like flavor for your brain. Hey, folks, that's the main episode for this week. Welcome to the outro with fun features for you such as help remembering this episode with a run back through the big takeaways.

Mega takeaway number one, paprika is a spice made of chili peppers originally from South America and Central America. Then it gained a complex role in the cultures of Spain and Hungary through Spanish imperialism and Ottoman imperialism. Then mini takeaway number two, paprika expires. And takeaway number three, paprika production scandals helped destabilize Hungarian democracy and the European Union. Plus a ton of stats and numbers about the timeline of paprika, the flavors of paprika snacks, especially in central northern Europe, and more. Those are the takeaways. Also, I said that's the main episode because there is more secretly incredibly fascinating stuff available to you right now if you support this show at MaximumFun.org. Members are the reason this podcast

exists, so members get a bonus show every week where we explore one obviously incredibly fascinating story related to the main episode. This week's bonus topic is two astounding mid-1900s uses of paprika and peppers in the United States. Visit sifpod.fun for that bonus show, for a library of more than 16 dozen other secretly incredibly fascinating bonus shows, and a catalog of all sorts of MaxFun bonus shows. It is special audio. It is just for members. Thank you to everybody who backs this podcast operation. Additional fun things, check out our research sources on this episode's page at MaximumFun.org. Key sources this week include the book Paprika, Foie Gras, and Red Mud, The Politics of Materiality in the European Union. It's by

University of Illinois sociologist Zusa Gilles. Another book called The Field Guide to Peppers by food writer Dave DeWitt and commercial pepper farmer Janie Lamson, plus historical writing for JSTOR Daily by Hallie Pugh Sellers, food writing for Bon Appetit by Silvio Martins, coverage of snacks from The Guardian, and other digital resources too. That page also features resources such as native-land.ca. I'm using those to acknowledge that I recorded this in Lenapehoking, the traditional land of the Munsee Lenape people and the Wappinger people, as well as the Mohican people, Skadagoke people, and others. Also, Katie taped this in the country of Italy, and I want to acknowledge that in my location, in many other locations in the Americas and elsewhere, Native people are very much still here. That feels worth doing on each episode, and join the free SIF Discord, where we're sharing stories and resources about Native people and life. There is a link in this episode's description to join that Discord. We're also talking about this episode on the Discord. And hey, would you like a tip

on another episode? Because each week I'm finding you something randomly incredibly fascinating by running all the past episode numbers through a random number generator. This week's pick is super recent. It's episode 188 about the dollar sign. Fun fact there, that is a symbol for Spanish currency promoted by an Irish person in New Orleans. So I recommend that episode. I also recommend my co-host Katie Golden's weekly podcast, Creature Feature, about animals, science, and more.

Our theme music is Unbroken Unshaven by the Budos Band. Our show logo is by artist Burton Durand. Special thanks to Chris Souza for audio mastering on this episode. Special thanks to the Beacon Music Factory for taping support. Extra, extra special thanks go to our members. And thank you to all our listeners. I am thrilled to say we will be back next week with more secretly incredibly fascinating. So how about that? Talk to you then. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network of artist-owned shows supported

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