Secretly Incredibly Fascinating - The Interstate Highway System

Episode Date: July 25, 2022

Alex Schmidt is joined by comedians/podcasters Katie Hannigan (‘Lady Journey’ podcast, new special 'Feeling of Emptiness') and Conor Lastowka (‘372 Pages We'll Never Get Back' podcast, writer/producer for Rifftrax) for a look at why the Interstate Highway System is secretly incredibly fascinating. Visit http://sifpod.fun/ for research sources, handy links, and this week's bonus episode.

The Interstate Highway System, known for being roads, famous for also exits. Nobody thinks much about it. Let's have some fun. Let's find out why the Interstate Highway System is secretly incredibly fascinating. Hey there, folks. Welcome to a whole new podcast episode, a podcast all about why being alive is more interesting than people think it is. My name is Alex Schmidt, and I'm not alone. My guests today are Katie Hannigan and Connor Listoka. Katie is an excellent stand-up comedian. Her new album, it's a 2022 album, it's titled Feeling of Emptiness. Again, that name is Katie Hannigan. She also co-hosts a very funny podcast that's with fellow comedian Sarah Tolomach. The name of it is Lady Journey.

So search Feeling of Emptiness, a stand-up album, or Lady Journey, the podcast from Katie Hannigan. Connor Listoka, also a very funny podcaster. He co-hosts 372 pages We'll Never Get Back, which is a great show. They read books they do not expect will be good and talk about them. He's also a writer and producer for Riff Tracks, and I hope you know him from past episodes of this show about butter or gargoyles or bricks. Also, I've gathered all of our zip codes and used internet resources like native-land.ca to acknowledge that I recorded this on the traditional land of the Canarsie and Lenape peoples. Acknowledge Katie recorded this on the traditional land of the Lenape people. Acknowledge Connor recorded this on the traditional land of the Manahoke people. And acknowledge that in all of our locations, Native people are very much still here.

That feels worth doing on each episode, and today's episode is about the interstate highway system. That's a road system in the United States that's also a patron chosen topic. Many thanks to Diego Salazar for that suggestion, and thanks to everybody who voted for it in the polls on cifpod.fun. This topic is an incredible window into life in the United States, and that's fun whether you live here or whether you are not here and want to know what the heck is up with us, Because as we'll discuss, this is one of the few things that knits Americans together as a society. So really excited to talk about, you know, what its whole deal is and where it came from and how it works. So please sit back or readjust your posture.

You know, while still keeping your hands on the wheel, it is important to do physical movement while you're doing a long drive, which is very important. Either way, here's this episode of Secretly Incredibly Fascinating with Katie Hannigan and Conor Listoka. I'll be back after we wrap up. Talk to you then. Katie, Connor, it is so good to have you both on.

And of course, I always start by asking guests their relationship to the topic or opinion of it. Either of you can start, but how do you feel about the interstate highway system? I got to say, I think I love it. I think I love it. I'm not a driver really, but I remember one time, this is what came up for me. My dad, I remember him telling me, oh, I remember like when that was getting built when I was younger about like a certain, we were on a road trip or something. And I was like, what? Oh, that's crazy. What a paradigm shift for me. Because in my mind, it's like just something that has existed for eternity, you know? Wow.

But he was not just talking about your local freeway. He was like when the system began, there I was. When they were building the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Fun. That's true. That's probably true for a bunch of the audience.

If they're older people, they can just remember it. Yeah. That was, that was sort of my opinion. It was just impossible to imagine life without it. So in favor of it by that default, um, you know, probably the same way that people who were half my age can't imagine life without the internet or the cell phone type of thing. So it's, it's one of those things where you probably, there's probably people out there who have that misguided, like idea that things were better before it, you know, cause they're like, Oh, think of all the quirky towns you would have gone through and stuff. But I think for the purpose that it serves, which is, you know, getting on, getting from point A to point B, like it's, you'd be very irritated if you were having to deal with like the way it used to be. I if you were if it suddenly went back to it it's the the internet of the road there we go

as far as like where people are from and stuff because like obviously we used it for road trips and also i grew up in the western suburbs of chicago and so anytime we were dealing with the city of chicago like we could take the commuter train, but there was a lot of my dad selecting which freeway we would attempt. And it was and they all had specific person names on top of the numbers. And it was like, oh, which one are we going to do? I guess the Edens, maybe the Dan Ryan, probably the Edens. It was that kind of thing all the time. I lived in Vermont for five years and it was a it makes you appreciate the interstate system because there was there's one, you know, there's one that pretty much takes you to, uh, you know,

where you, where you would want to go. That's not there. And, uh, if you, if you have to then drive on the other roads that are in Vermont that take you other places, you, you, you thank, thank your lucky stars that you got that one interstate in Vermont whenever they got it 89. Oh, yeah. Well, it's kind of charming when you go on like a long, when you go through those, you know, state road, well, like one Oh one, and you're just kind of going through like town after town. It just feels like you're in like the set of Beetlejuice and then you're, you know, somewhere else. And it's just, ah, this is where, this is where it all happens. Murders. Hallmark movies. Yes. Losing your memory and meeting a prince type of thing.

Charming is definitely the word. But like, you know, when you're, no one ever thinks that like airport travel could be more charming. You know, like you're just like, listen, I just need to get here. We all know it's, but like, they're not going to have like the charming flight that will take me, you know, through the, through the town with the waterfall in it type of thing. You're just like, get me from California to, to New York as fast as you can. Oh, I love a small town. I love it. It's romantic. You stop in for a little, you know, cafe and you just go on your way. Nobody knows you're just out there in the world. I always think about the time driving down from San Francisco, I think, or like even farther North to San Diego, where I also used to live. There would be like a main, I think it was like one, 101, one of those type of things, not an interstate, but then it miles an hour to 25, you know, hoping that you

would go to the, the charmless, uh, brewery and cafes of Eureka. And all it made me do was just resent the town to the point where I'm talking about it eight years later. That's how I know that we're opposite. Cause I'm like, I love to slow down at a stoplight, pop in for a gift shop, get a homemade goat's milk soap. Oh yeah. But it was like a sheets. It was. Pop in for a gift shop. Get a homemade goat's milk soap. Yeah, but it was like a sheet. It was like popping in for like the Eureka MTO sandwich type of thing. Oh, that's fun. I still love that.

I'm like, I got a key chain. I also, I can bring California expertise to that story because the, I think the longest freeway drive I've ever done was LA to Seattle and I just took interstate five because that's faster but if you take the pacific coast highway which is like route one it's not an interstate then you get all these beautiful cliff vistas and everything but then I was like I'm efficient I'm taking the interstate with the military shield yeah road trips are underrated I I was just going to say, you know, I think like we do, you do get like when you, when you get to travel and if you're

working all the time, you're like, we just fly there. We go to the beach, we pass out, you know, but road trips, I feel like are something that they're, they are underrated. And my family used to take them, you know, we'd be driving from like Indianapolis to Tampa for 18 hours. And then that's also a nightmare. You lose some of the romantic sheen on that when your mom is like screaming and we're all exhausted. But, you know, an adult road trip can be really fun. Especially the pre-GPS road trip where you're just pretty sure how much longer it's going to be. Oh, yes. Like, well, we have the road atlas. We just figure it's going to be this long because,

you know, my parents says that's how it's going. I this long because you know my parents says um that's how it's going i took a road trip once with a triple a triptych where you would tell it where you were going and they would print you out like a uh plastic bound its own thing whoa like which is you know that's a it might still exist somewhere but we got one of those it was like a drive across the entire country uh custom made from triple a yeah. That's really fun. That's really fun. Wait, it's called a triptych? And they just send you a little document like, we've planned this for you. Stop here.

Enjoy this. I think we told you. It's like, we're going to... It was essentially printing out your Google Maps directions, but having them plastically bound and in a weird AAA assembled style for you. It was a major perk of the service 20 years ago. Oh, wow. That's very sweet.

But, uh, and from here, I think we can get into some numbers about this because it's a very numerical topic. On every episode, our first fascinating thing is a quick set of fascinating numbers and statistics. This week, that's in a segment called, and I would host 500 pods and bonus show 500 more just to be the pod that drops 1000 stats and numbers at your door. Love it. Love it. You have a great voice. You i appreciate that thank you i have the the glenbard south high school theater program thanks you for uh the compliment of their training yeah

i love that and that name was submitted by johnny davis thank you very much johnny have a new name for this segment every week please make him as silly and wacky and bad as possible. Submit to SifPod on Twitter or to SifPod at gmail.com. And I'll bust out the pipes from one of the Camelot. We'll do it. That's great. First number here is 1956. And kind of ties into the story you were telling, Katie, about your dad, because 1956 is the year when the U.S. government passed the Federal Highway Act, and that created the official interstate highway system. Construction began that same year. So it's from like a lot of people's lifetimes. It's not a distant, distant past that. Yeah, wild. 56. I mean, the 50s were a crazy time. They were so innovative, but also people were terrified of nuclear Holocaust.

So it's a lot of good and bad. Wow. Yeah. Like it's the pop culture of it. It's like, oh, everyone was very square. And then also everything was new all of the time. Yeah, that's true. Yes. They were like, let's build an interstate highway. And then the next day some guy was like, and now we're going to the moon. And they're like, can we do this one thing at a time, please? It's a, it's a crazy juxtaposition. Yeah. Yeah. I'm fascinated by the fifties. I am. I'm just fascinated by the amount of technological innovation that people had in that time that was safer than, you know, the like chemical industrial revolution in the like tenss and 20s where people were just like getting poisoned by their face products and spices oh yeah long ago did a episode about ketchup

in particular where we talked about how the biggest selling point of heinz ketchup was that the bottle was clear and you could just see it wasn't full of like poison or metal or something it was just like we we won't kill you with this. And people were like, that is a great pitch. I'm into it. It's actually ketchup. Yeah. And this system too, it also incorporated some existing roads in the country.

In particular, the Pennsylvania Turnpike was one of the biggest existing freeways that would get incorporated in the system. The numbers of it are very boring, but there's specific measurements and grades that an interstate highway has to be. And so those older roads got rebuilt into those grades over time. But it is now a system over 47,000 miles long that incorporated a lot of existing highways, but mostly built new ones. Wow. I feel like I don't know. I'm not, I'm don't really don't know that much about highways because I'm not really a driver, but I, you know, every now and then I'll get a rental car and put everyone at risk on the road, you know, to, to get to a winery or whatever, a meeting. Cause Katie, you're based in New York City. I am too, but kept our car from North Carolina when we moved.

So I feel like almost not a New Yorker whenever I have a car. I'm like, oh, I don't count yet. I still drive to Wegmans and stuff. Alex, do you have one of those weird things people put on their back of their cars in New York to protect the bumper? I don't, and our bumper's kind of dinged up. Maybe I should. Yeah. Every, everybody has like, it's like a black flap that you strapped to your bumper and all the

brand names are like some aggressive animal or like, it's called like the warthog. Yeah. Warthog. There's an elephant one. They're all like the vibe is like, now my Toyota is, is ready to do combat like a bull would or something i feel like i would go the opposite way like this is a baby yeah don't tap it the infant kiss yeah baby on board and it's my bumper please help you just rig it so if somebody dings, there's just like, wah, there's just a little sound file. And also the next number here, speaking of like road trips, like we were talking about before, next number is 3,085 miles. That's almost 4,965 kilometers. For non-US listeners, I'm going to have kilometers whenever I can. But a little over 3,000 miles.

And to confuse us. I'm like, have kilometers whenever I can. But a little over 3,000 miles. And to confuse us. I'm like, what does that mean? What is a kilometer? And a little over 3,000 miles or almost 5,000 kilometers. That's the length of the longest single interstate in the US system. Damn. Popular Mechanics has a list. They say that Interstate 90, which goes east-west from Boston

to Seattle, is the longest single designated route in the U.S. Wow. And how long would it take to drive that? Oh, I didn't look it up. I don't know. I bet. I mean, it's got to be in the three to four day range, I would think. You know, my actual longest trip is Chicago to L.A., and we did it slow in four days. So if you blitzed four days, you could probably do this. Yeah. But you have guys who do like the cannibal run race where they like keep gas in the trunk and like try to do it as fast as possible. That's like,

you know, it depends if you're going by that measure of time or the. It's too extreme for me. I would do that at a TJ Maxx, you know, prepare for a bridal shower in 30 minutes, you know, something fun, but that sounds, that sounds too intense for my ladylike inclinations. Yeah. Those are definitely guys with the warthog bumper. Yeah. And there's some similar interstates. The next longest is I-80, which is from Teaneck, New Jersey to San Francisco.

That's over 2,900 miles. Next longest is I-40 from Wilmington, North Carolina to Barstow, California. Barstow is outside of LA. So the east-west, the biggest ones, and then the longest north-south interstate is 95, which goes from Miami to Holton, Maine. Wow. And that's almost 1,900 miles, which is over 3,000 kilometers. I'm wondering whether there's rivalries between the interstate fans and stuff like that,

because that first one you mentioned is so much longer than the other ones, but I wonder if other ones are trying to measure up to it in other ways, like yours is longer, but ours is more scenic or, you know, yours is in worse shape than ours because, you know, as dumb as that sounds, there has to be people who have, who have pride in their local interstate or something like that. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't get on board with it, but I, God bless them. Go for your hobby. I do. I think there's definitely people who will have like one bad experience on one interstate one time and decide it's terrible or the reverse. Like I one time, my wonderful grandfather, I was doing a trip just within the Carolinas and he printed out directions where he annotated exactly what he thought was the best or worst thing to do compared to what the computer said it was very sweet but you know every everybody has these things based on like oh i would never touch 88 at this time of day because one time i was in there forever and i needed to pee you know

i was on the five in 1994 and there was this white bronco driving down it so i would stay off of there for as you know do not take that road in case that ever happens again. And also with the, with all these length numbers of interstates, it turns out that the big U S interstates, there's actually a logic to the numbers of them, like the names of them. And, uh, I'm going to link a couple of things about it. Cause this is very visual and very numerical. It's hard to encode listening to a podcast. But there's a YouTube video by CGP Grey and also a Washington, D.C. transportation planner named Dan Maloof who wrote all this up. It turns out the U.S. does specific numbering

for the biggest interstates. It's a two-digit number ending in zero if it's one of the biggest East-West interstates. Like 90 is East-West, 80 is east-west, 10 is east-west. And they also number it where the one furthest north is the highest. So 90 is on top, 80 below it, 70 below it, all the way down to 10. And then the big north-south interstates are two digit numbers ending in five. So 95 is the furthest east. And then as you go west, you get 85, 75, 65. And that includes just five.

Like secretly that name is zero five, but you don't see it. Wow. I know that's a lot to hold in your brain. It was just all a bunch of numbers and I'm going to have pictures linked for that. No, that's very cool. It's cool when you find out the secret codes of stuff and then you're like, oh, I know a fact that's, you know, ultimately useless, but it makes me feel better. Right. This, this was a big one. We're on a big one. Yeah. With most of the numbers are a little bit random. Like if you have a three

digit highway number near you or a single digit, like there was some logic to that, but oftentimes it's kind of random. The big, big highways, north, south, or east, west, they did some thinking about it. They did some, hey, let's have a way you can have all these line up. This does make sense. Although I feel like, you know, like in New York, we have the grid system. So you're like, oh, I know where I am. But it's like, if you're in Oklahoma, like, I hope that you know where you are without knowing that you're on the 25 or the 35. Sorry, I don't know states clearly, but I can't tell them by the shape. Right. I think it's cool that they did this whole thing.

And then there's like, nobody knows this. So the guy who like, you know, created this, he's like, we should make it go this way. And it seems like it's very intuitive, but like nobody knows that it's actually laid out this way. Because you're just like familiar with whatever your local one is and you don't bother to, you know, I never realized that 95 was like the farthest right one. So I'm sure whoever came up with this is very frustrated that their, their, uh, their master system goes unappreciated every single day. Well, also it is, it's like, are you just going to, are we just going to have a total anarchy? We have to start from one and then we go to two and then we go to two, and then we go to three.

You know, it's just that's the way it makes sense. But look at 45, though. That shouldn't qualify. What are we doing here? That goes from two cities to each other. Off of 45, I'm going to go to another number here. The next number is four. The number four, not a highway name.

That's the number. That's how many miles long 45 is. That was fun. I love looking at that diagram. That actually helped me figure out what the hell we're talking about. I'm over here like, highways, we've all been on them, but what are they and where are they? But now I feel like I really learned something. Oh, that's good.

So thank you. Yeah. I extra recommend something. Oh, that's good. Thank you. Yeah. I, I actually recommend people links at SIF pod. Find, you can just see these maps of the big North, South, the big East West. But don't look at them while you're driving. Stop the car. No. Yeah. Podcast. It's a, it's an ironic topic. Yeah. You, if you're on an interstate highway, do not do what I just said. But, um kind of just picked out of the big north south ones that end in five that are two digits, like most of them are huge. But interstate 45 only starts in Dallas, Texas goes through Houston, Texas to Galveston, Texas. And even though we have this name interstate, it's one of many

interstate highways that are in just one state, and't go to other states and it even has like a big number and is only a texas highway interstate 45 a mini mini state minter state trying to go for a pun there you know there's something i like the idea of the builder trying to fudge the word interstate and have people not notice at the party. Like, yeah, I built an interstate. How's the food? How's everybody doing? Cool. And that leads to this number four.

Four is the number of designated interstate highways in the state of Hawaii. The state of Hawaii has four different highways that are part of the interstate highway system. But Hawaii does not have a land connection to any other parts of the United States. I feel like that was something we talked about earlier when we were joking about the, why don't they make the whole plane out of the black box? That's like a CT or 80s standup thing. Like, do they have interstates in Hawaii type of thing it's like yeah sir sir they do actually four of them how about Alaska are there any in Alaska yeah and it turns out so Hawaii's are very official they're built to the official interstate highway grade and everything and then Alaska has four interstates that are funded by the system

but not totally built to that grade partly because of the difficulty of the land and climate and everything else. And the same goes for Puerto Rico has three freeways that are interstate highway system funded, but not as wide and not as much of a controlled access as official interstates. Yeah. And they also have slightly different names. Yeah. And they also have slightly different names. The interstates in Hawaii are named H1, H2, H3, and H201. So there's an H in front of all the names. And then Alaska has A in front of the names. Puerto Rico has PR in front of the names. A little local flavor. I like it. Yeah. And also all the Hawaiian ones are on the island of Oahu specifically. So it's four interstates that all connect to each other. Yeah. I was wondering about that. But they need a highway too, you know? They have to have one out there. Oahu is a huge island. It's pretty big.

Yeah. And high populations. Got Honolulu and everything. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So they're part of it too. This will be a pretty 48 States heavy episode, but it's the whole U S yes. The continental. And speaking of the continent, next number is about 19,000 miles, 19,000 miles. That's over 30,000 kilometers. That's the length of the Pan-American highway, which is a highway running from the top of Alaska to the bottom of Argentina across North and South America. Oh, I did not know about that. That's very cool. Yeah. Yeah. These continents, they have one of those. There's one gap in the area of Columbia and Panama called the Darien Gap, but otherwise it's an entire highway stretching across the whole two continents.

Wow. Now I'm looking, I want to look at a picture of it right now. I need to see this because you could just drive down to Columbia. Yeah. No matter how long that would take you. And there's a few people who like do that as a, it's sort of like the cannonball run thing Connor was talking about. Like they just do it as an endurance challenge in a car because it is hard to drive that much that, that, that is difficult to do physically. Yeah. I guess you would, I would i mean i would need to i'm a big peer so i would need to frequent stops frequent stops and also as you as you have already i've already told you i love i love a souvenir run so that would take me about four years probably. Just the increasing weight of the key chains, like you're losing gas mileage or the car gets stuck.

Oh, wow. Yeah, I'm looking at it now. That's really cool. Although it does feel like certain – I don't know how I would feel about just like driving through Mexico, you know, because certain – you look at like the – I was looking recently cause my friend's doing a wedding in Costa Rica. So I was just looking on the, um, the travel advisory and it's like Mexico. It's like this Tulum one and like another city is like four. No, don't go there under any circumstance possible, you know? Cause it's just like, it varies so much from city to city there.

So I don't know how I feel about driving through. Hi, I need directions. Anyone? I read an account of someone doing the whole trip who is American, and they pretended to be Canadian. Because they just felt it would ease a lot of their interactions in a lot of places. And they were probably right. It was a good idea. How did they pretend to be Canadian? Oh, hello. Sorry. I think literally like a Canadian flag key chain and other just little tchotchkes and like a little story. They were going to be like, I'm from Toronto or some, you know, basic.

They got the moose brand of a bumper guard instead of the badger. Yeah. Yes. Or they're like speaking Spanish in a Canadian accent. Yeah. Lo siento. And then this is part of the interstate highways episode because the U.S. chunk of this Pan-American highway is just a set of our existing interstate highways. And you the U.S. is the main country where you have a few route options for the

Pan American Highway. It's mainly I-35, which is from Texas to Minnesota, or you can do a combination of Interstates 25, 10, and 15 going through the Southwest and the Rockies. And there is Interstate 5 all the way up and down the West Coast. But yeah, when you look at a big map of the Pan American Highway, it suddenly forks a bunch in the U.S. because we have a strong system, a lot of options. And it forks at the bottom, too. So where did you say that to the standard ending of it is? Oh, yeah. And then there's like Argentina is the true ending.

And also some people end in Chile, depending on how they're doing it. But you can you can go all the way down to I think it's just called tierra del fuego like the very very bottom of argentina it's like a speed running a video game you can pick whether you're gonna like beat all the bosses or just like go the fastest way and uh next number here this kind of comes back to the u.s centrally this is more than 50 percent more than 50 percent is how much of u.S. truck traffic happens on the interstate highways. Car and Driver says that the official interstate highways are only 2.5% of the road miles in the United States, but they carry a quarter of traffic and more than half of truck traffic. Oh, wow.

So truckers, they spend most of their time just on those interstates and then pop on and off when necessary. Yeah, that's a job. A trucker, what a most of their time just on those interstates and then pop on and off when necessary. Yeah, that's a job. That's a trucker. What a nuts job that would be. You know, you're sitting there for so long. I mean, you would really learn. You would really learn the road.

Yeah. But I don't know if I could do it. I'm thinking of an experience I had in Iowa. My mom lives in Iowa and we were out getting breakfast and we saw a guy who apparently drives for Walmart, but he had a jacket that said like more than 2 million safe miles as a trucker, which is, you know, a lot. Uh, I couldn't do it. Yeah. I'm not a great driver to be honest, but I have, I've have not had 2 million safe miles and I'm not a trucker. I wonder if that's an official thing that they give you or if like self-reporting that type of thing, it would to get like 199 K and then be like, like the days without an accident sign at a job site.

Yeah. Wow. Oh, the pressure. I get all of my trucking knowledge just from the movie over the top. That's, that's pretty much what I base everything on. Truck drivers are all in custody battles and they are also training for the arm wrestling world championships as well, where you win a truck if you win it. So, okay. Oh, I haven't seen it.

Haven't seen it. Sounds like a good one. Oh yeah. Good is a, yeah, it's, it's great, but it's, you know, it's, it was, it was snubbed at the Oscars, I think, the year that it came out. Oh, no. Is that movie different from the one where it's Clint Eastwood and a primate driving a truck? Yes, Over the Top was lacking in primates, but, yeah, that was every which way but loose, I think. Over the Top is Stallone.

It's a great what if in a what if there was a primate in this movie but sadly when the next next number here this is again the number four uh this time four is the number of u.s state capitals that are not served by an interstate highway. Ooh. Let's see if we can guess them. Yeah. It would be fun if you'd like to. Yeah.

There are four, which is way more than I would have expected. Des Moines. That feels like they probably have one. They have one, yeah. Yeah. What about Concord, New Hampshire? Surprisingly, no. Damn it.

Ooh. Albany? Albany's on one. Yeah, we haven't Surprisingly, no. Damn it. Albany? Albany's on one. Yeah, we haven't got any yet. Are you looking at the map? You're looking. I'm just trying to think of state capitals. What about Helena?

Helena has an interstate. God, this is surprisingly hard. I would not have, I think I would have guessed one of these because one of them is Juneau, Alaska. And that's kind of on an island and stuff. So that one makes a lot of sense. Springfield, Illinois? No, Springfield has one. All right.

Well, we're getting close. I can't think of any more capitals. Baltimore. No, I know one starts in that one. Annapolis. Is that on one? It has one. I'll give us the other three.

So it's Juneau, Alaska, and then it's Dover, Delaware, turns out. And then Jefferson City, Missouri, and Pierre, South Dakota. Pierre, South Dakota? I did not know that that was the capital. Man, when did I learn these? Fifth grade? I guess it's like, I feel like I would have remembered that South Dakota's capital is French for some reason. And it seems like a xenophobic state to begin with, to have a French capital. I don't know the story behind that one. No offense.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I am now imagining Pierre, South Dakota is like this thriving glory days of French culture art city. Yeah, like Montreal. Bonjour. thriving glory days of French culture, art city. There's accordion music playing as the Sturgis guys roll through. Very, very romantic. And, uh,

and yeah, and that's of this taping. I, or as of this taping, I double checked on Google maps. Uh, they're, they're served by like state routes and local roads,

but the system just happens to pass them because it can, there's no rule that says a capital has to have one. Uh, and my favorite is Jefferson city, Missouri, because interstate 70, like just misses it. It goes through Columbia, Missouri. It's, it's almost got an interstate, but it just gets skipped over. Wow. Yeah. And isn't that the tale of most many stories that, uh, cities that like the interstate bypass is that they, they died sort of like, you know, the towns along route 66, but they did that to the Capitol. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of what happened. Yeah. Cause these were all picked already, uh, maybe except for Juneau, Alaska, but either way, like, yeah, whoever did the system said these other cities are more important. Don't worry about it.

Yeah, whoever did the system said, these other studies are more important. Don't worry about it. Wow. Yeah. And last number here, this is about a state highway, but last number is 85 miles per hour, which is over 136 kilometers per hour. That's the highest posted speed limit in the U.S. It's on Texas State Highway 130. Oh, my God. I have been on that highway and I was driving after I was like 19 years old driving on that highway after a death in my family.

It was a funeral and I had to like drive the car. It's okay. It was fully half of my life ago, but I had to drive an elderly family member's car after the funeral and because she was tired. And I just remember being like i think i was actually 19 but i had only driven for like two years and i just remember being like this is i am absolutely terrified that semi trucks are whizzing by me and it was just so scary and i remember i at the time i did not know that it was like the highest speed the highest

speed in the country but now that i think of it i'm like that's why it was so scary i mean it was just terrifying that's such a combo like like all that grief and simply being 19 and like oh just everything everything not okay wow yeah. Yet another relative with you. Yes, she was, she was there. She made me, she made me switch driving with her. Oh, is it, which one did you say it was? So it's Texas state highway one 30. It's not an interstate. It goes from greater Austin to greater San Antonio. And it's parallel mostly to another interstate there too. That's why you need a primate sidekick for reassurance at all times.

Driving on these big freeways. Absolutely, bring him to the funeral. Lands and this difference in speed is a very tiny degree of difference because the highest posted is 85. But it turns out there's a bunch of interstates where you can go up to 80. A bunch of lanes and people really pushing the same speed. Yeah.

And you know what's crazy? Because when you are on the highway, people are going 80. But some people are going 100. So people are going between 80 and 90. So you're just like, hey. But it was a big deal in the 90s when Montana said they weren't going to do speed limits. Do you remember that? Oh, no, I don't.

That's wild. They were like, just be cool, everybody. We're getting rid of this statewide. It was like national news, like the late night monologues and everything. We're talking about it. But I think they rolled that back, but it was sort of just a highway speed honor system for some point in time. That's, that's absolutely nuts because even when you're driving, even when you're driving in New York and the highway is 50 here, the speed limit is 50 on the highway here. And you will still see

people gunning it at 90, like weaving in and out of traffic. And you know, it's just like, Hey, you know, you know what you're doing. So good for you, but guess what? I don't. So you cut me off. It's going to be a problem because I can't drive and I'm in a rental. So it's one of those things where if I was ever driving that fast and weaving like that, I'd be like, well, it's just a matter of seconds before I get pulled over. Cause clearly this is like the most illegal thing you could so visibly do. But it never seems to happen to those people. They're just like doing it and having a blast.

Yeah. Stuff like that happens and you're like, we are not the same. We are. You want to think like people are basically good and then stuff like that happens. You're like, something's wrong. Something's wrong with our species. and you're like, something's wrong. Something's wrong with our species.

Yeah, it's, I feel like that mindset really varies by like which type of vehicle people have. Like sometimes I've seen people doing the speeding and the weaving in like a sports car kind of car. And I feel like they feel like they purchased the right to do that, you know? They're like, oh, I bought the ultimate driving machine. So therefore I can, I can do this thing. You guys in the boxes, you know, forget it.

Yeah, don't mind me and my little station wagon heading out to Costco. Off of that, we are going to a short break, followed by a whole new takeaway. I'm Jesse Thorne. I just don't want to leave a mess. This week on Bullseye, Dan Aykroyd talks to me about the Blues Brothers, Ghostbusters, and his very detailed plans about how he'll spend his afterlife. I think I'm going to roam in a few places. Yes, I'm going to manifest and roam. All that and more on the next Bullseye from MaximumFun.org and NPR. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, One you have no choice but to embrace

because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. And with the rest of this main episode, there's just two big takeaways, and I think we can get into them. First one is takeaway number one.

The initial forerunner of U.S. interstate highways was a British military road partially planned by George Washington. planned by George Washington. The very first federal road in the U.S., it followed the path of a road the British built, and specifically British Army officer George Washington had a hand in it. That's pretty cool. I love

to think about him with his marble teeth just planning away. Or crossing into Delaware and being like, you will not have a freeway that goes by your Capitol. I do declare as George Washington. I know you guys are trying to suck up by being the first state,

but not good enough. You don't get one. Forget it again. Like, I think that the, when you think about what the roads would have been like then, and just how like horrible and imp you think about what the roads would have been like then and just how like horrible and impassable and how long it would have taken you to go anywhere to uh oh yeah

that was back when they had the corduroy roads where they were it was just like logs split in half yeah my god yeah um yeah just like there's a pothole throw some bones in it or something i don't know like you know how we're going to fix this, and who's even responsible for this as we go. It would just be such a nightmare to exist any time before I was born. Yeah, those days were rough. Katie, you mentioned corduroy roads. I had never heard of those until researching this. Have you seen one of those, or how did you hear of those?

I learned it when I was in fourth grade at my school when we were doing Indiana year. That was our year. Oh, you did Illinois State History stuff. When have I thought of corduroy roads in the past 25 years? Never, but I'm really glad I got to use it today. Yeah, and for people who don't know, a corduroy road, it was an early way of building U.S. roads where they would lay out split logs. And because it had sort of a bumping pattern, like corduroy fabric, that's what they call them. And yeah, before asphalt, a lot of roads were like that.

It was like, hey, we did a road. And then when you're on it, it's just bump, bump, bump, bump, bump for however long. Yeah. One thing I love when you're driving and going on road trips, especially when you go from, I guess it's like Indiana East. I don't know if it's necessarily on the highway, but when you're going on road trips and then you see, as you're driving down the highway, these gorgeous like rock walls that you're just driving past, it's these gorgeous like cliffs. And you can see the stone over years and years. And you're like, Oh, this has

been just fully dynamited away. They must've gone to huge effort to just blast this road. That's like 10 miles of, or 10 feet of rock. We're sitting on top of this. I just love that. I love thinking about, you know, we, we do take it so for granted, but the sheer amount of effort that's put into just like having a little smooth drive. Or a tunnel, you know, like just one tunnel. What that would take if they put me in charge of that, it would just be like, I live in this tunnel now.

This tunnel is my home. And yeah, tunnels, especially. And they're so, they're so perfectly shaped too. It's like, what, how did we get in that? Who knows? I would definitely be the engineer who's like, do people need to go to Asheville, North Carolina? It's nice, but, you know, why don't we just stay home? And I'd be wrong.

Asheville's amazing. But, yeah. And this first, like, federal road in the U.S., it was approved in 1806. So very early on, President Thomas Jefferson, the third president. Before 1806, there had never been a U.S. government, like, federally authorized road. And they authorized what was called the Cumberland Road, later known as the National Road. It went from Cumberland, Maryland to Vandalia, Illinois. So through states like Indiana,

like following that way. And according to the National Park Service, this road followed the path of a military road laid out by the British colonial military. Because in 1755, General Edward Braddock tried to attack French colonists and native people in the Ohio River Valley.

And so to support that, they like laid out a military road and sent the troops down that. So when they dedicated it, I wonder, like, since there was nothing else to do because it was 1803 or whatever, did people go and be like, come on, there's a road. We got to go drive on it now. Oh, like when they started the D.C. Metro, my dad was like, they on, there's a road. We got to go drive on it now. Oh, like when they, when they started the DC Metro, my dad was like, they cut the ribbon on the Metro. And I was like, I, I, I'll just go take a ride. I mean, it was something to do. So not to use it. I mean, right. It's like when people just watch trains go through or go to the airport and watch planes take off like transit. Can you believe it? Amazing. There is a Cumberland, Indiana. So I

wonder maybe if the road went through that town. I think it's like a suburb of Indianapolis. Oh, almost definitely. There's a Cumberland, Maryland too. I was telling everybody last time we drove by it, or I guess it was just my wife that, that we were going to go through the Cumberland gap. Cause there's like, you know, all these folk songs about it. And then she looked it up and was like, well, this is not, no, that was in Kentucky. It's we're quite far away from there. Yes. It's a common name. So I, I got, I was super curious cause yeah, I was confused by Cumberland,

Maryland is separate from the Cumberland pass in the mountains and they're all named after King George, the second son, who was the Duke of Cumberland and like crushed a scottish rebellion in the 1740s if people have seen outlander he's the english guy who won the battle that the scottish guys are all sad about so like cumberland stuff in the u.s is named after him but also probably connected to these projects cool that's interesting it sounds like cucumber a cumber yeah like a weird name like someone who's being cool about pickles yeah it's it's a very random word to be stamped all over north america yeah and uh and then this this military road happens and that campaign happens and this was part of a conflict called

the seven years war that when when i was in of a conflict called the Seven Years War that when I was in grade school, it was called the French and Indian War. But one of the English General Braddock's volunteer officers was a Virginian surveyor named George Washington. And the Library of Congress says Washington personally mapped and outlined a lot of the French positions for the campaign, like and did a lot of the map positions for the campaign, like, and did a lot of the map making decision making that contributed to this road that the British built to fight the French. Oh, wow. That's pretty cool. Because it was 20 years before the revolution. So he was just like a very,

very wealthy slave owner who wanted to help the British army. Yeah. Just make a few roads. I love it. he could really do anything back in the day yeah own a few slaves make a few roads get marble teeth be president is that how he made his name or is like is that like his harrison ford being an apocalypse now kind of thing like before he was famous his breakout role yes road planner kind of yeah we a long ago i did an episode about the color blue and apparently he wore like when the when the continental congress was meeting and thinking about a revolution washington showed up in military gear to a meeting and that was part of his pitch for like, I could lead the army was like, show up to a legislative meeting in military gear. And he was referencing gigs like this.

He was like, see, I knew that guy and we're fighting them. So I'd be great. He wore blue and he was tall. We've always been dumb. Yeah. I find that annoying. I find that annoying. That's what turns me against him, even though he owns slaves. I'm like blue Blue. But nobody likes that person that shows up like, hey, hey, who could be president? It's like, just leave, Gary. No one wants you here. We're just trying to have a nice evening at the diner. It's like, it's my birthday.

Just get over yourself with your Blue. I hope people who misremembered his name called him Gary. That feels so authentic to me it starts with g like yeah you have to forget george washington's name in that era gary washington uh uh it's george sure gary jordy whatever it's fine get out of here yeah when one other takeaway for the main episode here, takeaway number two. U.S. interstate road construction got slowed down by James Madison and World War II. We just talked about a road Thomas Jefferson and George Washington worked on, and then the bonus, we'll get into more Eisenhower stuff.

But there were decades and decades where the U.S. did not really do a lot of highway building as a federal government. And there's a couple surprising reasons. And the first one is the next president after Jefferson, James Madison, the fourth U.S. president. In 1817, the U.S. Congress said, hey, we passed a new bill. It's for like a bunch more infrastructure across the country because that one road was really great. And Madison vetoed it. And in his veto statement, he said that federal road building was unconstitutional. So that's why he was vetoing it.

Oh, my God. It got Roe v. Wade-ed. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. He didn't even let it get to the Supreme Court. He was like, they'll never be okay with this guys like forget it we got to stop here yeah he's like it wasn't the founding father's intent how do i

know because i'm one of them true yeah well i guess it was they had such an emphasis on stuff being privatized right in those days and that's why they probably why they were like no we don't want public libraries we don't very republican of them so and the states were just like different entities right too they were like you know they were still sort of like we're we're more of our own thing than we are like this you know in case this whole nation thing doesn't really work out and the jury's still out on that but like um states rights it's a it's a miracle people got anything done back then when they were all just like dying at 40 from diphtheria. So it's pretty impressive. have the like specific words in it that the federal government can build roads and so he said that power for roads and canals belong to the states and that it was federal overreach to like dictate which roads would go between which states and across the country brother you're like roads

but then you're like and canals let us have canals in between the states. Right. And he, the University of Virginia Miller Center, they have the whole text of his veto. He says that, like, the interstate commerce power of Congress doesn't apply to this. He also says that the federal government, according to the Constitution, should, quote, provide for the common defense and general welfare, end quote. should, quote, provide for the common defense and general welfare, end quote. But Madison claimed that roads were not part of common defense or general welfare. And then in the future, we would build the interstate highway system, which is like explicitly for our general good and for the military. Like we've fully flipped and changed this like Madison viewpoint of it. It probably all started when he wanted to like vacation in Maine for the summer and

there was no easy way to get there. And then it was like, you know what? This isn't the national interest and it's no longer a state's rights issue. Yeah. Also, I worked for the Miller Center one summer. I don't remember what I did, but that was a, yeah, that was a name I had not heard in many, many a year. Look at you being a Virginian.

I love it. It's great. Yeah. Yeah, I've only read their online stuff. It's really good. It's a bunch of resources about presidents, and it's great. It'd be great if I had spent that summer just vandalizing texts about James Madison, and then one got cited just now. Oh.

Like Wikipedia vandalism. I'm like reading the page. I'm like, and then James Madison said, Connor rules. That's weird. Apparently his brother drools as well. The president said, I don't know. That's my understanding. But so Madison claimed this and then, you know, other presidents would change their mind, especially Eisenhower. But eventually the U.S. gets interested in this kind of project, in particular because in the 1910s, a few states, especially Wisconsin, started doing extensive freeway building within their states and codifying how the roads needed to be in a way that we now do with the interstate system. And according to the 99% Invisible City, which is a book by Kurt Kolstad and Roman Mars from the podcast 99% Invisible, it's all amazing. They say that a few US states did that and that kind of pressured the federal government to get going. They were like, oh, well, if all the states start

doing it individually, I guess we should like knit this together yeah get on the bandwagon yeah i think that the main thing about the the that is a remarkable about the whole interstate system is that like the states have managed to agree on like a toll transponder right you know like georgia i read just joined like the easy pass system and it is like it if you would ask me to bet like all the money in my life, like whether they would ever agree to something like that, it'd be like, no, there's just going to be like 18 different ones. You have to switch out of your driving down 95. And the fact that it exists is like a tribute to something, you know, just to, to not screw up one thing out of a hundred. Look at us. Yeah. And, uh, and then as, uh, as states did this in the 1910s, uh, federal

government starts to get going. And then the next, next big obstacle is World War II. So a lot of what became the Highway Act in 1956, they'd laid groundwork for it in the 30s and 40s. But we were just spending so much fighting World War II. There was not so much money to like execute and build interstate highway stuff here. build interstate highway stuff here. And so once they, once, when Eisenhower got out of World War II, did he realize that like, like you said before, the defense was what sort of needed to, to make it all happen in terms of like being prepared for the next time that needed to, you needed to get, you know, military supplies from one place to another? Yeah, there's sort of a myth about the system. Some people believe it was exclusively for defense,

and then we accidentally got the benefits of all the cities in the U S being connected, but the, there were really the two goals at once, all at once they said, like, there'll be big commercial economic benefits of this. And also, yeah, we need our troops to be able to crisscross the country for like, you know, if somebody ever tries to invade the United States, they'll, they might succeed if all our guys are stuck on the wrong side of the mountains, you know, like that would be tough. Yeah. our guys are stuck on the wrong side of the mountains. You know, like that would be tough. Yeah, yeah. They're on the other side.

Yeah. And then in between like this actual interstate system and the early versions of it, there were also private organizations that tried to build national highways. And Kolstad embraces both. Yeah, that makes sense. Cloverleaf like roger rabbit oh that was the goal right they were going to build just a toll road the the big big first effort was called the lincoln highway there were other ones called

like the evergreen highway and then this whole era of like states building things and companies building things probably the most famous product of it is Route 66. Which Route 66 is famous, but it's not part of the interstate highway system anymore. It's different parts have been absorbed by different routes and changed over. But according to National Geographic, there was an Oklahoma State Highway Commissioner named Cyrus Avery. Cyrus Avery. And his dream was to build a highway that would connect the Pacific to the eastern US and also specifically incorporate his home city of Tulsa, Oklahoma. Those were his two goals, were like National Highway, Tulsa's on it. And he succeeded. In 1926, a meeting in Missouri of several commissioners of state highways agreed to build Route 66. And it goes from Chicago to LA. And then

there were just existing roads from the East Coast to Chicago. And it became just a whole cultural symbol. Like there's songs about it, historical places on it. It's a whole thing. Is that the one that you took when you said you and your girlfriend, you went from Chicago to LA? Oh yeah. Alex, I think you said, is that the road you took? It was actually, it was right after college. It was me and my brother actually but uh yeah we we excuse me but that's that's not the key thing yeah and uh in hindsight i think we took the modern interstates but it basically followed that route like we went through tulsa uh oklahoma city and like a lot of the places that are on it partly partly because this guy loved Oklahoma.

So yeah, I kind of followed that in life. It is sort of like when the coach's son gets to pitch on the little league team type of thing, just like, you know, and I want this here. Is that efficient? No. Does it make sense? No. However, you want to build your own route, go ahead. I saw the beginning of it in December. We were in Chicago and I saw like wherever that is marked sort of in like that, the main downtown area is like the beginning of route 66. And my in-laws drove it. Like my, my father-in-law just like, you know, likes the kitchen, the romance of that. So they drove it a couple of years ago, probably 2019. And, uh, I, I just remember they went through the town of Winslow, Arizona, where they have like a statue to mark the mention of the Eagles song. So yes, my parents also went there and they, it is a baby boomer landmark. They love,

they were like, you will not believe where we went standing on the corner in Windsor. I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. They got shirts. Yeah, wow. Yeah, so it's a shame that, you know, a lot of those towns have been, you know, decimated by the interstate system and that 66 is no more. Then again, you do have a statue commemorating an eagle song. Yes, yes. It's not all bad. It is immortal.

It is immortal as long as you're over 45. Folks, that is the main episode for this week. My thanks to Katie Hannigan and Connor Listoka for having driving experiences, especially Midwestern ones. That really endears me to people. I don't know. I know that like Chicago to Indianapolis route, especially. We have probably all been on it a lot. So that's great. Speaking of Indianapolis, shout out Kurt Vonnegut Museum and Library. Anyway, I said that's the main episode because there is more secretly incredibly fascinating stuff available to you right now. If you support this show on patreon.com, patrons get a bonus show every week where we explore one obviously incredibly fascinating story related to the main episode. This week's

bonus topic is Dwight D. Eisenhower and his super messy military road trip. Visit SIFpod.fun for that bonus show, for a library of more than eight dozen other bonus shows, and to back this entire podcast operation. And thank you for exploring the interstate highway system with us. Here's one more run through the big takeaways. Takeaway number one, the initial forerunner of U.S. interstate highways was a British military campaign road, partially planned by George Washington. Takeaway number two, U.S. interstate road construction got slowed down by James Madison, World War II, and kooky private and state enterprises. Plus a humongous numbers section this week. That was most of the

show, and that's partly because the system is numbered, partly because it's measurable. There's also a bunch of maps and fun stuff over at cifpod.fun. Enjoy the numbers. enjoy the numbers. Those are the takeaways and number stuff and more. Also, please follow my guests. They're great. Katie Hannigan co-hosts the podcast Lady Journey. Just search Lady Journey, you'll find it. That's with fellow comedian Sarah Tolomach. She also has a new stand-up album entitled Feeling of Emptiness. And on the socials she is at Katie Hannigan on Twitter and at Katie Hannigan Forever on Instagram. Connor Lestoka is a writer and producer for Riff Tracks, the incredibly funny movie riffing thing that I hope you're familiar with. That's a huge comedy thing. Also, they are live in theaters Thursday, August 18th with The Return

of Swamp Thing. So that sounds pretty good. The Swamp Thing's back too. Connor also co-hosts the podcast 372 Pages We'll Never Get Back. That's with Michael J. Nelson. If you search 372 Pages, you'll probably find it. And then Connor's newest of many comic novels is titled The Pole Vault Championship of the Entire Universe. Many research sources this week. Here are some key ones. There's lots of U.S. presidential reference material this week. Some of that's from the Library of Congress. Other of it is from the Miller Center at the University of Virginia. Also got info from Popular Mechanics, the organization Greater Greater Washington, and the YouTuber CGP Grey

for info on interstate numbering and layouts. Also leaned on Car and Driver, Time Magazine, the University of Central Florida. Find those and many more sources in this episode's links at sifpod.fun. And beyond all that, our theme music is Unbroken Unshaven by the Budos Band. By the way, if you've seen the new FX TV show The Bear, great show, and also it has a lot of Budos Band on the soundtrack. So not this song, but other songs will pop up, and you'll just be happy about it. Our show logo is by artist Burton Durand. Special thanks to Chris Souza for audio mastering on this episode. Extra, extra special thanks go to our patrons. I hope you love this week's bonus

show. And thank you to all our listeners. I'm thrilled to say we will be back next week with more secretly incredibly fascinating. So how about that? Talk to you then. Thank you.