Seeds And Their People - EP. 18: Dragged Through the Garden: Thai Food and Chicago Hotdogs with Heidi Ratanavanich and Family

Episode Date: March 10, 2023

Heidi Ratanavanich invited their mom, Mae Sue, and aunties Na Na, Na Urm, and Na Toy from Thailand and Chicago to cook traditional Thai foods together for their Philadelphia friends and family and to visit their traditional foods growing at our farm. We were also able to talk about the family hotdog stand, Al's Drive-In, which serves hotdogs and Thai-inspired Chinese food. We are grateful to have recorded these beautiful moments with them for this episode! Heidi is a visual artist, carpenter, and educator. Heidi is interested in the intersection of food sovereignty, Thai/Chinese diaspora, ecology and economy. They are involved in the collectives FORTUNE and Television. Heidi apprenticed at Truelove Seeds for a season, tending to Thai and Chinese based plants with a special focus on Kra Praow (Thai Holy Basil) saved from their mom's home, Sappaya, Thailand. They were also part of a team that re-opened a small take-out corner store in West Philly called Golden Dragon. Golden Dragon will be closing its doors this month, though Heidi plans to continue their food sovereignty work and personal journey with ancestral food, including growing a Chicago-Style hotdog garden in 2023 with Zhong Shu Tomatoes, Thai white cucumbers, Chinese Celery, Sport Peppers, and more.   SEED STORIES TOLD IN THIS EPISODE: Introduction: Milkweed Efo Shoko Callaloo  Coral Sorghum Couve Heidi's Seed Stories: Krapao (Thai Holy Basil) Celtuce (Chinese Stem Lettuce) Prik Chi Fa (Pepper) Lemongrass Makrut Lime Leaves Moringa Eggplant Culantro/Recao/Foreigner Cilantro/Saw-Toothed Cilantro Rice MORE INFO FROM THIS EPISODE: Goodbye Golden Dragon, on Bunny Hop Instagram Fortune Heidi at Truelove Al's Drive-In Al's on CBS News Al's in New York Times ABOUT: Seeds And Their People is a radio show where we feature seed stories told by the people who truly love them. Hosted by Owen Taylor of Truelove Seeds and Chris Bolden-Newsome of Sankofa Community Farm at Bartram’s Garden. trueloveseeds.com/blogs/satpradio   FIND OWEN HERE: Truelove Seeds Tumblr  |  Instagram  |  Twitter   FIND CHRIS HERE: Sankofa Community Farm at Bartram’s Garden   THANKS TO: Heidi Ratanavanich Mae Sue Na Na Na Urm Na Toy Cecilia Sweet-Coll Ruth Kaaserer

She's saying how, like, a lot of fish cakes that you might have at a restaurant just doesn't have all the Thai components, like the macout lime leaves, or they'll just put in a lot of filler. So she likes to make it because you can really get all the herbs and flavors in there. And, you know, that's what I want to make with everyone. Or, like, to share a Thai food that is the kind that my mom would eat. I was just whacking it normal. I don't know. I'm going to be. .

Oh, my goodness. Welcome back to Seeds and their people. I'm Chris Bowden-Nusom, farmer and co-director of Sankofer Farm at Bartram's Garden in Sunny Southwest, Philadelphia. And I'm Owen Taylor, seed keeper and farmer at True Love Seeds. We're a seed company offering culturally important seeds, grown by farmers committed to cultural preservation, food sovereignty, and sustainable agriculture. this podcast is supported by true love seeds and also you thank you so much to our newest patreon members spencer kemmy barbara k sydney katherine banana poo okay gg rassy margaret miriam aaron and francis and jennifer if you'd like to support our storytelling and seed keeping you can do so at patreon

dot com slash true love seeds this month we are doing something new and answering some of your questions we'll be taking questions from our patreon members first as well as a couple from instagram so first up brian from western kentucky wrote i have failed to successfully germinate all my milkweed seeds for several years i've tried cold stratification to no avail any suggestions Okay, so milkweed species generally require at least 30 days of cold stratification, which means exposure to cold temperatures. And what we do, and maybe this is what you've tried, Brian, but just in case I'm going to tell everybody, first of all, we keep our milkweed seeds in their jar in our fridge, just to keep them cool in storage. Second of all, before we plant the seeds, we put them in a wet paper towel, you know, a moist, a moist paper towel in a moist paper towel in a zip block bag labeled with the date and which seed it is. So kind of folded over the seeds so that they're just kept not just cold but also moist for 30 days at least and before we plant. And that really helps. So while we store the seeds in cold,

it's really the cold wet or cold moist kind of scenario that works for them. Another way to do it is to plant them directly in the ground, in the fall, and that's just really what you're replicating in the fridge is what they would be experiencing in the soil, like a moist, cold soil all winter. Or you could plant them in, you know, potting soil that's moist and put it outside or somehow protect it while it's both wet and cold so that they come up in the spring. spring. So hopefully that is helpful. So next question.

Mahogany's Garden on Instagram asks, which ancestral seeds are underrated and overlooked and need a reintroduction to the world? And why is this plant so special? Well, yeah, that's a really good question. I guess probably the first ancestral food crop that comes to mine, the Efo Shoko, which we offer at Chula seeds. which we've been growing now for some years at Sankofa is an absolutely excellent green. I can't really think of any green that really compares to it in terms of taste. It's durability. It's beauty in the field.

It's one of the most gorgeous mahogany kind of red, just beautiful. It's like a gorgeous flaming bush in the field. And it stands for a very long time without going to seed, at least in our field, Sankofa. And even when it's put up its flower heads, the leaves are still edible and still delicious. So I will say the Efo Shoko and just in general, the whole family of warm weather amaranes, African amaranes and or South American amaranes, right? In the south where I come from, we refer to what is called Calilu in Jamaica, which is also a warm weather amaran as pigweed, or red root pigweed. So all of the pigweeds or amaranes, I think, are just really overlooked, particularly in this country.

Before you move on from Amaranth, we should say that Ifosha is a Yoruba word, and it's a salosia. So what a lot of people in the U.S. think of as an ornamental flower, you know, a solosia, is actually a food crop in many parts of the world. Asia, and beyond. And so Ifoshoko, the Yoruba word for a certain type of salosia, a leaf solosia that's still very, as you said, gorgeous, but we grow as a food crop. Yeah. So that probably is one of the first plants to come to mind. And again, I say Efochoko, but I'm going to include in that also it's amaranth relatives of the wild spinach as they would be referred to in Africa. And because they grow up and provide a bounty for most of the summer.

at our farm and our neighbors absolutely love that entire tribe of plants for cooking greens and they're extremely nutritious and very, very durable and resistant to disease and pests in my experience. True. While the cucumber, or not the cucumber, the Amaranth flea beetles love the Kalilu, they do not touch the Efo Shoko. No, not yet at least. It's probably just a darn resistant and strong green.

And for that reason, and I think again, when we talk about the power of ancestral eating, when you eat resilient foods, when you eat strong foods, you know, the idea is that we are also taking into ourselves that energy that makes them and that power that makes them resistant and makes them so durable so that we ourselves will become that way. Another part of the question is, which ancestral seeds are surprisingly easy to grow, and let's get shallow, which ancestral seeds germinated into the most beautiful or unique plants. I think one of the beautiful things, at least speaking from African diasporic foods, is that many of our traditional foods are very easy to grow. By easy, I mean that they don't take a lot of, they don't need a lot of coddling. You don't need to prepare the soil and make sure that it's super rich or anything necessarily for a lot of it. I mean, I give you, for example, the entire Vignan Wiculata family, species. It's not, you know, you generally can put a black IP or black IP relative in soil of almost inequality and it will grow and generally thrive.

I would say the same for a garden egg. So, and the same for sorghum. So again, I think traditionally we've lucked out in that African ancestral species many times are easy to grow in that they don't require a huge investment of energy besides, you know, sort of, preparing the soil and in keeping it alive in this babyhood. Yeah, so the Amaranth and then the Vignoligulata or your field piece, I would say, are probably the easiest to grow. And in terms of beauty, I mean, I hate to keep talking about the F.O. Shoko, but it is just a gorgeous plant to look at.

It's a plant that I could look at all day, you know, in the field, especially as it gets taller and catches the light. So, yeah, that's just a gorgeous, a gorgeous ancestral crop. probably next to that would be sorghum, almost any sorghum, particularly the coral sorghum, though, which we grow, which I think originates in Sudan. South Sudan. Yeah, or came here from South Sudan, at least. It's also just a glorious and beautiful, statuesque plant in the field. It's also an ancestral crop.

Finally, Meg Murphy on Instagram wrote, Hi, Chris and Owen. I have some questions about Kuw. I live in garden in New Hampshire and have Azorian heritage. A few years ago, I received some smoothleaf azorean kale slash coove seeds through seed savers exchange. I've read the different types of cove are grown in Portugal and Brazil. I like to hear anything about growing it in the history of cove and how to save seeds. I haven't gotten it to flower yet here in New Hampshire. Well, I can talk a little bit about saving seeds.

I haven't grown this type before, but it's basically, from, my understanding, somewhere between a kale and a collard. And it's Brasica Oloracea, that species of kale and collard, but also broccoli and cabbage and brusel sprouts and cauliflower. It's a big, it's a big species with a lot of types. Generally, that speed, or I think always, that species is a biannial. There's probably some exceptions. But this one is certainly a biannial. Some other information I got from Meg on Instagram is that the deer eat her plants down every fall. So there's the main hint for why it's not flowering or making seeds. Actually, it was the week that both Frank Morton and Mama Ira Wallace came to our farm, and we have interviews with

both of them from that week years ago, where they both talked to me about overwintering this species and that in order for it to flower the next year, the stems of the plant should be at least as thick as your pinky to trigger flowering in the next year. And if the deer are mowing it down to the roots, which sounds like it was the case, I suppose that would, you know, negate that or make it not go to flower the next year. She does say it comes back from the roots. And, you know, I always heard that, you know, when you plant the seed and the seedling comes up, that's when that should get thick. And I imagine it got thicker than that before the deer ate it,

but maybe the fact that they ate it down to the ground will just negate flowering because there's no stem of any thickness. Yeah, it wouldn't have enough time to regenerate. Well, you know, the next spring it comes up and becomes lush again. So it's, I don't know if it's the time, but it's just that its body is not undergoing the winterization that needs to happen with enough kind of girth. the stem or any stem whatsoever to trigger the flowering and going to seed. So yesterday we had our

growers gathering on Zoom with dozens of our growers looking at crop planning and I decided to make the first point in crop planning to be about deer fencing because so many of our growers, you know, one of the biggest things that prevents a successful seed harvest is actually deer eating the crops, deer rabbits and groundhogs. So I think in order to save the seeds, they just need to be protected over the winter. And this is my guess about it. We don't work with any growers from Portugal or Brazil

yet at this point. So I can't say I have first-hand experience or second-hand experience with this particular crop. I'm wondering if you have anything to say about Cove, culturally. Culturally. You know, no, I mean, well, yeah, you know, just to that point

of that we don't currently have anybody from the Portuguese diaspora. or the Portuguese-speaking world growing food right now, which is really a shame because we do know people from their diaspora. Cape Verdeans as well as Azorians and Portuguese-descended folks. So maybe we need to lean on them a little harder to grow some of those traditional crops. But I know I have grown cove before,

and I didn't realize that it needed cool weather in order to really do its thing in order to really, you know, get that impressive coloring and size. And so I grew it at the wrong time, and this was many, many years ago. So, you know, I found it to be just a slightly unique-looking collard green at the time, you know, in my ignorance, not knowing much about it. But, yeah, I don't know much more about it other than that. But we should definitely get someone to start growing it. Now for our feature presentation.

This episode features Heidi Ratanawinitz. An old friend of ours who, as a true love seeds apprentice, focused on Thai and Chinese seed crops, and who also co-founded Golden Dragon, a black and Asian-operated food project in a former Chinese takeout restaurant of the same name. Heidi invited us to interview their mom and aunties who were visiting from Thailand and Chicago. In Chicago, Heidi's family runs Al's Drive-in, a hot dog stand with a few Thai influence. Chinese dishes as well. This was a gorgeous episode for me, mostly just to see the continuation of culture,

culture being passed on, which I think, particularly in the immigrant context, you know, is not always a given, but to see, you know, that mother and daughter are cooking together in the same kitchen are talking about and sharing recipes and educating one another, even on their traditional foods was something that was really powerful to see. So, yeah, it felt like an interview where, you know, you feel like you're right in the kitchen with it happening. And what a powerful gathering of aunties and moms and grandmonds and generations. Yeah, and I loved getting to know Heidi's family and was really excited as always walking through our farm field with them and seeing which plants, like, really got them excited and sparked their memories.

And it reminded me why we grow, you know, a small plot of rice, you know, and little cultural touchstones for our visitors to really break open into story and memory. So let's get into it. We're going to start in the kitchen at Golden Dragon. Okay, Matt, yes, you say your name. My name is a zoo, Rattanawa, it's born in the... Thailand and China-Sapaya, Bangkok. Where do you live right now?

Oh, now I live in Chicago. Thank you. I'm going to... Tell you. Where are you born? Where are you born? Sapaya, Thailand. Where do you live now?

live now? Yeah. Thailand. Mm-hmm. Perfect. Natai. Your turn. What is your name?

My name is Toy. Chindamane. I live in Chicago and I was born in the south of Thailand, in the Nala Thia. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Could you introduce?

My name is Nana. I born in Thailand. China, Sapaya. And now I live in Chicago. Perfect. Thank you. Who are you? I am Heidi.

I was born in Chicago, Illinois. And I'm currently based in Philadelphia. and I'm here now with my aunties and my mom in Philadelphia and we're cooking together. We are at Golden Dragon in West Philly. This is a food and art project space that started in 2020, roughly. We have a partnership with Bunnyhop, which is a mutual aid food distro. Yeah, right now we're just kind of in the process of like, figuring out when we can open and make food with friends and artists and chefs and try to

figure out how to partner, create partnerships and collaborations with local farmers and growers here in Philly. Can you describe what someone will see as they pass your place on the street? So Golden Dragon is a former Chinese takeout restaurant in West Philly. It still has the original sign signage outside with the original phone number, which is no longer active. We're standing in the lobby right now where it's the original lobby and everything in the kitchen is from the former owners. So that was important to this project. One, we didn't have the money to like change things, but also it felt important to like keep the space as a,

familiar sort of like space in the neighborhood where it's like a yellow sign that people come in and can get out get takeout food so that felt really important to this project our little family has come here many times after we go to the barber around the corner and gotten takeout from you all in one of your iterations and it's so delicious and so nice to come into a community well it feels like a community space even though it's a takeout restaurant where our friends are cooking and people are enjoying delicious food. So thanks for what you're doing and I'm excited to see where it goes next. I saw some of our peppers on your counter. I should show you more. There's more in the freezer too. Yes. And so my relationship to true love was, I mean, began just through friendship with Chris and Owen as people that I've come to know as I've situated my life in Philadelphia and have always found like their relationship to growing and seed saving so like inspiring and just like built on love and care for what they're doing. And the opportunity to apprentice at True Love last summer in 2021 was this moment for me to get deeper

dig deeper into my relationship to Thai food and growing some Thai ingredients that feel near and dear to me to understand like my Thai American components and grow a few things that I think helped me sort of unpack those things in my life. So I grew Thai holy basil, which is kapau, and in two of varieties, and white. And I also tended to Chinese lettuce, celtus, which I think that is a nod to my Chinese side that I don't know a lot about, but I want to acknowledge as a, you know, component of myself. And this pepper. Oh, and yeah, Prik Chi Fa, which is this, this Thai pepper that I'm getting to know at True Love. It was my sort of first time experimenting with this pepper that is sort of like a Thai pepper that most people don't talk about because the bird eye chili Thai bird eye chili is like is the star

and like has taken a lot of the like spotlight but this the precheifa I think is just as important to Thai cuisine awesome and I see it over there kind of should we look at it yeah check it out and then we can talk to your family some more here we are so this is a quart of prick tree fat vinegar which is called prick num som which just means like um like numsome is like a sour vinegar and it's like translation like base form so this is just the prickchi from true love, de-seated, blended with garlic, salt, and just white vinegar. So this is just like kind of like a base to a lot of other sauces or it's just a dip.

It's a hot sauce that people love to like add to their dishes to customize and make special for their own. And this is the star of the show. Yeah. So this is just next to it we're like looking at some Pricinu, which is the, bird eye chili that is in a lot of the Thai dishes too as like sauces too but it's the heat factors definitely a lot more spicier than the Pritchie pot. What are we hearing in here? So right now my family, my aunties and my mom are visiting from Chicago and an activity I suggested was cooking dinner and they love cooking and being in the kitchen and they wanted to cook.

food for my friends and family here in Philly. And so right now we're prepping a few dishes, pat Thai classic, Massaman, curry, Penang, and we're going to do a soup, which is a sour, spicy shrimp soup. And then I think later I'm going to, my mom was really impressed, but I'm going to make Konomchan, which is a Thai, a Thai, a Thai, coconut dessert that she's not familiar with but I told her I was experimenting with this and she was really impressed that I'm trying this out so we're gonna I'm gonna make it with her later awesome I wonder if it makes sense to talk about some of the ingredients while they're out with the people who are working with them yeah so

So, now, they're going to talk about tom yam and this and some ingredients they were describing for this dish is the tom yam is the lemon grass, mercroot, lime leaves, galangga, and a red, and a red. And some of these came from Chicago, right? Yes, so the macrude. Makrude. Mekroot. Lime leaves. Citrus estricks.

Why do you grow it at home? Because they got a good for Thai food. We need every like panang she makes. We have to put this. Tom yam. It tom yum, very important. You cannot cook without it. Magrude.

Can you say the English name? again? The English name is Makut, or some people will call it lime leaves. Yeah, lime leaves, some people they call. My aunt is saying that this one that we brought from Chicago is actually from... The seed is from Thailand. These are the seeds from Sapiyah where my uncle, Nemo, who is their younger brother, who is in Chicago right now. They helped him, like, dry the macrude lime seeds

and, like, the old ones she was describing, and I guess he brought them over. And so this is how you have magrut lime leaves, right? That's all we can pay in the 10 years, because usually they go outside, but now to cold Chicago. So, Florida, my friend, they cut from outside they cut a lot. So how big is it?

From outside, it's a big. Like, like, about, about four feet. Yeah, like four feet. Look, man, then, yeah, about four feet. She was just describing how McCrude is an essential ingredient in curry's. So where does it live in the house? I have a clean house a little bit in my house. Yeah, you need to stay with the sun.

And then you said that we're in Chicago, so summer you keep it outside. And then we move to outside. And it moves to your greenhouse in the winter. Yeah, yeah. My house, I got greenhouse for a lot. What else do you keep in your greenhouse? Lemon Gat, Kappa, and then pa, and then pickinu. Chili, Thai chili.

So lemon grass, Thai chili, Krapal. Yeah. Krapao. Thai holy basil. Oceum, species. I grew the kapau, about last summer. My aunt here, who's here,

my aunt here who's here right here, she helped me get the seeds and pointed out this plant. So I wanted to know, like, if they can describe their relationship to kapaw. So she was saying how there's a Thai dish called pat-gapau, which is like the name translate literally to just like Kapau stir fry. The kapau is like in the name of the dish, so it's like necessary for this. this dish to exist is to have this herb, but she was also saying that being here, a lot of people, because it's so hard to find Kapal, Hora pa, which is Thai basil or basil, is a substitute,

but it is, it's a substitute that happens, but it really is, it doesn't make the dish. because kapau is necessary for it. So she was describing a little bit about that. She's saying at the end there, the red variety of the kapau is the best. And you used it in your cooking here. Is that right? Yes.

Because I've formalized this relationship with true love and been talking about kapo. I've been able to make this dish. with Kapau and not Horapa. And have you noticed the difference? Yes, definitely. The flavor is just really different. Smale strong, chun, just means like that. Like a smell a lot like that.

Kapau definitely has this aroma that's super important to the dish. So it's like, it's fragrant. It's got like a... They kept repeating the spiciness of... the spiciness of it is necessary for this dish, while, like, Poropah maybe is, like, sweeter and just, like, not as, like, fiery and potent. So, like, when they use Kapau, it, like, can just, like, make you sneeze.

It's just, it's present is, is very, like, forward. Like, it seems like it's in the front. I think I heard your mom say hot. Yeah. Hot, hot. That is what they kept saying. Like the heatness of it is definitely like a large component of what Kapau is. And it's hot in Thailand.

My mom, I'm 77 now. They used like a, we make a power for baby. Like a stomach hurt, like a too much. Yeah, cry, baby cry, a problem about stomach. My mom used Kapau. So it was used as medicine, right? Yeah. Medicine.

That's very good for... Stomach egg. Uh-huh. For baby born, the bird born. Do you think I could still use it for my stomach? No. No, like your brother, the first my older son, we used. He born in Thailand.

That time, he cried every day. In the morning, in the afternoon, he cried, cry, cry. My mom said, this stomach. My mom, he used kapau, and three days, he don't cry no more. my son so is it the wet leaf you're grinding it up so the fresh leaf right it's sort so i think there's like a solution that's like lime that people use i guess to like chew like a chewing thing but also it's used in baking too i have some at home it's like pink and then you make a solution and And it's like this lime water solution.

So they were saying that the Krapal is mixed with that into a pace where you put on your belly. But don't hit the belly button. And what do you wrap it with, just fabric? Just like a piece of fabric, yeah, to keep it on. Can you ask, did your mother use other healing herbs? Oh, and he'll tell him that me, yai, Wong, he'll try it about. So lemon grass is, like, dried and used as a tea for... For high batteche.

Most of the, like, herbs or things like that, like the lemon grass and basils and the galanga, like, all that is medicine, but it's, like, in the food, you know? So, like, it's just part of what they were eating on the daily. One question I've been just thinking a lot about in terms of my own, like getting to Nokapal, and like that's like my food journey to Thai food. And so one thing I am always curious about asking my mom and my aunties is like what is what did Thai food look like when they came to the U.S. in the 70s? You know, like what was Thai food like then? Because it seems like Thai food is everywhere. So, mom, when you first came to the U.S., what did Thai food look like?

Like, was there kapal? The first, I don't see. I be here in 1972. No, no orange, no, no kapau, no nothing. Very hard to get, not like, not like right now. She was describing like some things were dried that you can find, but nothing fresh. 1972 in Baltimore, very, no, no Thai food, no herb, no nothing. Until 75, 1925, they come a lot, I don't know, they come from Thai grocery,

they have that one, they have, num pig, gang, like. So, my time ago, no milk can't, no curry paste, no curry paste. It was just non-existent, so they didn't really make Thai food. when they did get a hold of, like, Thai ingredients from friends or, like, dried ingredients, they would make it. But I remember when I was a kid, we used to have this katai, which is called rabbit. And it's like a little tool for scraping coconut. Coconut. Cocos Nusifera.

Why were we making coconut in that way, like scraping it? She's saying that a lot of Thai. people had like their friends ship their ingredients either by like boat or you know like large shipments they would just like send curry paste and like all the ingredients to make it here coconut milk was hard to get right yeah that's so they got fresh coconut cut it in half you scrape all the like coconut meat out and then you blend it to get the juice out with a warm water with a little water warm water and then you cut it and then you strain it three times yeah drain with a skin like that something like

this with a strainer it's sweet that make coconut it very happy where did the coconuts come from I don't know probably Mexico something definitely other like immigrant grocery stores that about about About 1980, up we can find some plates like this. They have a lot of coconut now after them. When they had to make the coconut milk, then they didn't do it often because what's the use of having that without curry paste? You know, you didn't have the other ingredients to actually make the whole dish, so it was, they really did it. They don't have, like now, everywhere.

But that time, you know, hard to get. They can find everything right now. Matt, you grow a lot of your stuff too, right? When you first came, you didn't grow a lot, right? Nothing goes further. And first time we go by Magood. My friend, I don't know where they take from, small one I did.

I don't know where they take the gift to me. That one we start, I'm happy. I got, right now. I used everything for bai-makut, like what? Lime leaves. That's the first. The first ingredient. The first I have Thai herb.

We're happy. We do this together. When was that? About that time that I go, Heidi born. 80, 1980s. In 1980s. I go in my home. I got two, three at home now.

I'm happy. I got everything. Tomiomksuit. This number one in the Thai food, Tomyam Cung. Yeah, this one. But you can put seafood, everything. Put lemon grass, and then by maclut. I show you, this one.

This one, all this, you cannot without it. You have to have lemon grass, lime leaf. If I don't want to go to Thailand let's long, they don't have enough. This is why I make my own. my own. They just put this a bit. Sometimes they don't have this. They don't make. They never put me. Okay, so it's not tam yam

unless it has lemongrass, lime, lime, leaf, onion, and Galanga? Yeah. It's that. And lots of it. Yeah. That tom yum. This one is all right, but this one, you cannot live without

this. So, tomato, you can take it or leave it, but you need the other ones. But that's very important. You make tom yum, you have to cut this. And that is a lot of lemongrass and a lot of lime leaf. Not tom yum. That's why I don't go. Even now, Thai restaurant, they never put.

Because it's hard to get into expense. They don't use, they put some little bit like for one. Do you ever make Thai food at your restaurant? My restaurant, I just make a fire light. I mostly got American food. Because of bread, a fire light. Like half Thai, half Chinese, this is why my fried rice sale would be good. What makes your fried rice Thai?

Thai, I don't know. They put not the same. I use the even light. I have to use the long grain in my life. Not weird, but Thai they use just mean sometimes. The same style, but Thai, Thai, fire rice, they got a little bit sweet, and they put another thing. But light is soft. Your rice, you use long grain rice. My, have to cook like that. And do you make it a little sweet also? No, my, not sweet.

I put like, I have recipe my, my little long. I got my salt, you know, I make my own sauce. Sauce? Fai light. Is it a secret? Yeah, not secret. I can tell. I tell Heidi I make.

I have to put a oyster salt in a system. and a sesame oil and the salt I make with the soy salt from Chinese and black soy salt from Chinese and Thai. We put in the big barrel they did, put a soy salt like we make the big one, but after that I used to make sesame oil and oil the salt they make smell taste very good. Even my people, they like to eat my firelight. What kind of vegetables or herbs. Any? Fire light. Oh, we just put an Indian. Green onion.

Green onion on the top. The white onion, we cook with the meat, the one you order meat. We put, my fire line, put green Indian, white anian, cook with the meat, like, all depends what kind of meat. And put the egg like pat-thai. Put egg, after done, put green onion. Have you had fried rice at your restaurant

since you started? always hot dogs and fried rice first I bought hot dogs then first and I make a Chinese food later about I have Chinese food about 1980 after Heidi bought 1983 or something like so in the beginning just hot dogs in American food from 1979 and then after Heidi you started serving Chinese food too yeah Why did you start serving Chinese food? Why? Because I like to eat Thai food. We need right. We have to eat right, right?

That's why. I said, oh, I got a little bit loom in the back and let her father build the kitchen for Chinese. Did you ever make other Chinese food there or just fried rice? I have some just two kind, like pepper steak, chapsui, chimed lobster salt. That's shrimp with lobster sauce. We have to make everything. It has to be good. We don't know how to make. We don't do.

Pepper steak, chapsui. Oh, it's good. Chim, lots of salt. Usually, before we open, we make egg full yung, too. But too much work now. I just saw that you won an award this week. Pardon me? The, um, Vienna, beef.

hot dog award. Do you see that? Did they got that award? Yeah, I just learned that Al's drive-in was inducted into the Hall of Fame. That's what it was. I learned when I was on my drive here. I was trying to remember the name of the restaurant and like do a little background research and it came up. All these news sites with videos about the Hall of Fame. Yeah, I guess it's a big thing, huh? Forty-five years is a long relationship. to a place. And I think, in my opinion, we can be there because of the relationships we have with customers, patrons and students and, yeah, people that are in Maywood that we form relationships with through this way, through this food place. Yeah. Mom was saying that there was already a legacy there because the previous owner, Al's Al, he had run the business for 25 years already at that point. And then when we took it over that's another like 45 years so 70 years of hot dogs at al's and now fried rice too yep and now fried rice mom wants to point out that our commitment to vienna hot dogs is you know

part of this like was why we are inducted into the hall of fame too is this commitment to vienna beef being the brand of that type of hot dog. Can I ask why? What is it? I don't know what Vienna beef is, so I'd love to hear about that and why is that special? He'll tell me to my chai Vienna beef, Yohanee. This one, it's only Chicago, and then number one in the hot dog.

If the body, no, have to, the good hot dogs, then if you use Vienna, if the body go, they say, They say very good. Vietnam good, but I don't know. That's why they give me a award a lot, because 70 years I never changed. I got good customers. We can get along very good with customers. They won't good Vietnam. I think everyone loves a hot dog, but what is it about Chicago and hot dogs?

I don't know why they say I add them. They're Vietnam, the big company. They say, I don't know, they say not another state. Just only Chicago. of Vienna. Oh, Vienna beef is only there. And then it just seems like Chicago seems to be known for hot dogs. And what, what's the deal?

I mean, the Chicago style hot dog is a very particular type of dog. So it's dressed up in, I guess, how many, how many layers. Maybe it echoes the like winters in Chicago, so it needs a lot of layers. but people tend to call it like drag through the garden because first it's on a poppy seed bun and there's yellow mustard there's relish this like very Kelly green relish raw onions a kosher pickle tomatoes like wedges of tomato sport peppers and then sprinkled with celery And that's dragged through the garden. Wow.

Yeah. Now that's, you can order one with that or they all come with that? If you say Chicago style, that's how, that's everything. Wow, we could do a whole Seeds and their People episode on the Drag Through the Garden hot dog. Yeah. Because that's like seven or eight different plants right there on this hot time. A mustard, a sesame, a cucumber, a tomato, an onion, pepper. pepper yeah it's really it really is a garden yeah so maybe that can be something we can aim for

in the future ohan yeah yeah i'm very interested she's feeling a way about al's becoming just like getting a lot of maybe like attention from media and how i don't know she's feeling humble but also they've been doing this for like 40 years and so I think it's it's like this moment of like wow this work is this work that we've been doing is like being seen or like people see see see us yeah and I saw that you're in the New York Times this year too and last time the channel number two they come just last week last Tuesday they come I'm not here I saw I watched it yeah you were like that did why we got we stay in hot dog why we stay too long because we are not with a custom I know what change even right now I don't make money

bought too high but I still do my sister she the one take care right now I'm retired yeah she took care hot dogs and she the one I ask a strange hot dog question if there was such a thing as a Thai hot dog how would you make a hot dog Thai? Well, Mom, maybe you know. What's the closest thing to a hot dog? Oh, well, people eat

an encase meat in Thailand. The Thai sausage tastes better to her than here. Better than a hot dog? Better than a hot dog? Yeah. Over here, too much salty. You have to eat this.

This is why they put in the bun in the bed. Like I put in the bed. And I put in the bread. And I put lot of things. But Thailand, they don't put much. Oh, you're saying the bun is like a bed to like take away the saltiness of it? Yeah. Yeah.

It needs a bun. You'll upset that. Thailand. She's saying in Thailand, they're making more of a hot dog sandwich with a Thai sausage that I was describing, and they put it in a bun, and it's becoming more popular. Have you tried it? Yeah. She says it's just delicious in a different way.

garden is that one dragged through it's just ketchup and like syrup it's like hot sauce and ketchup that's it on the hot dog and then you said there's seasonings in it inside the meat in the Thai sausage one notable spice is white pepper right so she's saying white peppers usually used because black pepper is hard to find but they use black pepper in the sausage because it's hard to fly. Thank you for humoring me. Can I ask one more question of you in the mom and maybe your aunties? Last question.

Last question. I want to know what are there hopes for you carrying on the food traditions. She's saying it does make her happy that it won't disappear and that I can continue to like work with Thai flavors and like bring in like and keep Thai flavors like going and around for people she's saying how like a lot of fish cakes that you might have at a restaurant just doesn't have all the Thai components like the macout lime leaves or they'll just put in a lot of filler like just different not sweet too sweet they put So she likes to make it because you can really get all the herbs and flavors in there.

And, you know, that's what I want to make with everyone. Or like to share a Thai food that is the kind that my mom would eat. So that's your goal for you. Yeah. How are you going to reach your goals with Thai food? I think just moments like this, bringing them here and like spending time together, cooking, showing them, you know, the sort of relationship to Thai food that I've been cultivating on my own here, like going to true love and, you know, asking questions and just trying to get

their stories before, you know, we can't do that. Maybe let me get this mic out of here and you can immerse yourself fully. Thanks, Edwin. Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing this really important moment. and letting us enter this space and we'll miss it. Yeah, I appreciate it and, you know, taking the time to, like, listen and you're doing this work that's so necessary, and, yeah, thanks for including us. My absolute pleasure.

See you at dinner. See you at dinner. Thank you, everyone. Yeah, Coach of Firelight, thank you. Okay, you want to eat some tonight. Yes, I'll be back. Oh, good. You come tonight.

So we're here in the field. We're at the farm. It's a new day. We're with Heidi and their mom and aunties, and we're touring the crops that are familiar to them. Yeah, and we're kind of just getting, you know, coming to the place where I started growing the kapau. And so N'u'am is here,

and she was the one to help me harvest. the Kapau in Sapaya and so I wanted to bring all of them here to see where Kapau is going in West Philly. Marum, Moringa, Moringa Olaferra. Marum. We call it Maringa. They call Marum in the sky. They call it Meringa.

Malinga. Malinga. Oh, Malinga. They're going to get it. But if they're on, he'll go to and then, they'll cut them out, and then to cut them out,

and then to kind of ton, like to cair. But they're on a little, not don't get. So what they're saying is the leaves, they eat the leaves and some curries, when they're really young,

it's also medicinal where they can, they'll eat the leaves for like help with like bowel movements. The seeds are harvested too for like medicinal purposes too for like sore throats or just general like care. Okay so these leaves here are old, too old to use.

Yeah, but the young ones like up here in between. I guess this is ideal here. Okay, so they look like they're just a few inches long at the most for using for cooking and medicine. Yeah. Or the new one, they don't know much about Marlom. They don't know how to eat. So you're saying a lot of like, your generation knows this,

but a lot of younger generation don't, yeah, don't know about this plant. Why is that? I don't know. Because right now, this why. Neutralation, they don't know. They just know all right, that. They don't know about it.

They don't want to learn. Seems like what they're saying is, yeah, Maybe they don't notice it or they just haven't been exposed to it because it's not around them anymore. Oh, they're not living in areas with it anymore. And I saw your mom pantomina phone. Yeah, I think she was saying they're just not interested in these plants because maybe they're busy with technology. Flower woman, beautiful, yellow one. You can eat it.

I say, yeah, we can eat. They don't know how to eat, but they like to paint like a declaration of her house. I saw my house. So some people are growing these for like decorative plants versus like for for eating or medicinal purposes but for it's like flowers. Oh because they have these like cascading white and yellow flowers. Exactly. We're describing that the seed pods are also like maybe a little more, it takes a little work to eat the pods because you have to like really scrape the pods to get to, like, the fleshy part.

With your teeth, you're like, um, yeah, like, yeah. The flavor is, like, sour and sweet in the curry that they, they eat the maloomut. What, is it a coconut-based curry? Look a can't say, get tea, about? No coconut. Like, like, like, with fish. So in Geng Maloum is like lemon grass, red onion, kachai kind of like? Kachai is something we don't know, but it is in the herb. Okay. We looked it up.

It is finger root in the ginger family. What other plant do they want to talk about? I guess the eggplant. She said she was excited about the eggplant. Okay. Jao Pruillya eggplant Solanum Melongina. It can eat. You know, some, they just not old like this.

They come the baby one or... Like these? Yeah, but young then this, this is too old too. This one, no, too old. You use baby one, eh? You are going to grail-wahn, the bed, So green, green curry. Yeah, number one is what they, so a neat, they were saying that some of the

eggplants, that you can stir fry it, you could put it in curries, and you could put it in soups, but it's most ideal to harvest them when they're really young and small. And slice it very thin. Put garlic. Garlic. And with put basal and a little bit charapeno chopped. Oh, real good. And if there are soybean, taugia,

fermented soybean. Yeah. Oh, that's good. If you like meat, you like too full, you don't eat, you can add. But I like this one. What kind of meat do you like with this one? Usually we use with pork. But, mostly I eat my, I don't put meat.

I like it, I love. Jao Paya. But there's mauka sapeya, too. So she's saying the name of the the eggplant that she's familiar with is called Jiao Paya Egg plant, which is the name of the main river in Thailand, which is like their backyard is the, backyard is the Chao Pia River.

And that's not this eggplant. It's not this one, but it's very, when she saw this variety, she was very, she immediately thought of the Chao Pia eggplant, which is a smaller variety round and harvest it when it's white and little, but it eventually turns green, not orange. Is there shaped like an egg? It is shaped round, like maybe we're like a ping pong versus an egg. She's like a little, but it's small. But it's a little, yeah?

She kept like on, you know, no, no, you don't have it, like, oh, she says you want to harvest when the seeds inside are still like white and tender

and not like brown and old, I guess. Nick, you pan and you give a young, I let Heidi cook for you, make her. I tell her for you, yes. She'll let you cook to me. Yeah, thank you for you. For if you do how to cook, I tell her. She's saying those, the stem part is called the hat.

Okay. The hat is too old. You've got an old hat. It's got an old hat. Around the, like this looks. So when the hat's still holding tight. That's when you want to harvest to eat them. Yeah, yeah.

Kulantro, Pakchi-furang, eringium fetidum. What is it called? It's called, they call it Paxi-Falang, which is like, So there's two names One it's like Pachchi-Ferang and Pachie Bailuei So one way of describing it

is like Paxi is cilantro here or like it is a name for that and the saw-tooth so they call it like saw-tooth cilantro and they also call it Pachchi-Farang means Farrang in Thai means like

foreigner or a lot of people call white people foreigner or like Feralang So they call this cilantro flannel. Do you know why it's called that? They think that if they had to guess, maybe like the foreigners came and planted it or showed showed them.

It comes from the Americas originally. He said, here here ma'atjak America. Uh-huh, uh-huh. From like the Caribbean. Like, like my mom, I'm 77 years old.

She said her mom would call, saw-tooth, saw-tooth, cilantro. Now they're kind of battling or different types of cilantro that they're kind of battling or describing, figuring, trying to figure out other types of cilantro's that they know of in Thailand that are similar but different. Can you ask your mom how her mom would prepare this? So they use it in the same way they use it now as like in salads and soups and in in l'ap. Tom yam soup in particular. Yeah, the soup we had last night. Last night we put, last night we put tom yum.

And we should have had this. We could have used this. Yes. And then mom's saying. the next time I make lop, I should use this, this sawtooth, cilantro. They said just put it on everything. Antrovi? Ah, anchovies.

Yeah, they like making sardine salad. Yeah, they like making sardine salad. Yeah. Can you ask them their first plant, like food plant, memories? Kappao and Thai Basel, and Salaneh, mint, mint. So, kappa, which is Thai holy basil, Thai basil, horepah, and salernet is mint. And those are the true. And this one.

Yeah, because in Thai people, how everybody eat lab, eat soup. For her, she was saying that Magrude, which is the lime leaves, is something that's super important to her and lemon grass. Yeah, and how it was just, like, around the house. How about your mother? My mother, my, now I'm 70, 7-year-old.

My mom, the one I want to eat every day. For mom, her, what is memorable to her, what is memorable to her is like young banana, like like for her young banana and then also what looks like the, um, malung, but it's a different variety of that but for her like grandma her mom those were the things they would harvest when you know they had to eat and hora or like a pa wasn't was available but for her these are the things that are like okay so young banana and what we call maringa or maloon malo but she called it doc care she was saying how the the doc care that plant specifically eating the flowers was what was used to make like to eat in the curry and with like dips.

Specifically, she's like that was her generation, like growing like that's what we, you know, it would be super in the yard like that and it's not like that anymore, but that's like what she would eat as a kid. Shopping every day, oh today, eat it, eat, eat. That's how we have any kind like that we eat. That year, that time I born, seven years ago. Thank you for sharing that, Mom.

I asked why Heidi's parents decided to come to America. She said, well, we came to try to make a living to work and make money. Yeah, this is why we came here, very good living and make good money. This is why. You're there come, and I came with you're there. That time I don't work, he worked. talk. And after that, my husband, his father, got good business,

got all my family came. So you came first and then you brought the rest? Yeah, I'm the one first. When you came to America, where did you come first? I live in Maryland, Maryland dead life from D.C. That's the first we stay. And then you went from Maryland to Chicago?

No. We moved to Baltimore. My husband got business in Baltimore. That time she was not born. And leave Baltimore about five, six years, seven years. And 1978, I moved back. Her father, that time, she's not born yet. He said he's too Thai.

He don't want to stay here no more. Move all family back. Back to Thailand. Yeah. But he... but then you decided to come again. Why is that? My husband, I just followed him.

He stayed Thailand only four months. Over here, he got good business, good how he ordered. Keep away some business and how. And he stayed only four months. He said, no, I go back to America. What happened those four months that made him want to come back? Because in the Thailand, it had to get the job, and he got a little bit money, put a business.

not work good. He partnered with a friend, doctor. We plan to open hospital or something, but only for four months. It's not work. He changed. He comes to Thailand. His family changed him, everything. This is why he upset. We load out of the money and we come back. What do you miss the most about Thailand? She's saying then what she missed most was like communication. Like she couldn't speak the language and I think that was really challenging in the food the food. When you go back home what is the first thing you eat? Her favorite thing to go back and eat is like a lot of these herbs and vegetables you

can't find here and then also eating fish because she's she's a river kid. Dek Chaupaya, right? Yeah, yeah. It's like. Mereng, it's like . Yeah, when she goes back to Sapaia, where she grew up,

she'll, like, go and forage and harvest all the things that she used to eat as a kid. It's her favorite thing. And this fresh water fish. Fresh, yeah. Pah Chowpaya. Oh, that one I love.

This is why I eat a lot of fruit. My friends said, this is why I'm not too. Why I'm not too old, I'm seven. I'm just so. All the way I go up with her. But my sister, they never, like me. My, I go up with her. We eat everything we have and we plan.

We never go by nothing. My mom. You and your mom, but your sisters grew up different? No. She's different, different. She's younger. She's a new generation. Oh, this one, I know.

I don't know how to eat. This one, no. Why did she grow up different than you? what was different when she was growing up? Why? Because I don't know. Because I'm the new one, you know, right? The new one, it's like, for her, she thinks she feels like even within these generations,

like she grew up, there wasn't electricity, we didn't have a phone, there wasn't a lot of like modern technology. And for them is, even within that, you know, five-year different, you know, they had those things so that I think changed, you know, is the difference for her. I don't live in the city. I live like this. This is why I go up with it. Everything fred.

Never buy something. Never buy no meat. No refrigerator. No. How did you preserve the food? They're fresh one. I don't eat no meat. Like once a while have money, okay, go buy the meat and we cook right away.

Moultry, my... I eat Lada, fish and vegetables, all this we can eat my mom cooked with me. So what did you eat in the dry season? So, oh, lada, lots of vegetables, have an egg pan, a lot of potatoes, something like that. And man, we're pook, everything, we do. So she's saying there is different seasons, but, like, usually the rainy season, everything is like, fresher or younger, right? Nafon?

Nafone. It's the harvest time. But we never buy, never buy, never buy, never buy. She's saying that the lufa plants that we were looking at reminds her of the gardens, or this plant that they used to grow in their house in Sapaia in the garden and how

they would just use that like they would eat that with everything fried with eggs just dip it in like chili paste relishes right now my hometown like that like here neutralization or I come back the old one gone yeah it's a little different me beautiful farm beautiful how now it's development yeah like I think the the More of the green space has become, like, single-family homes or, like, also, like, before the river was accessible from the backyard, and now they built, like, a cement wall to sort of, like, mitigate the river flooding. Because they live not too far from the Chinat Dam, which is just up the river. So now they, instead of this view of the river, it's just a cement wall.

Wow. Yeah. Heidi's mom talked about growing up before electricity, using lanterns at night and also carrying water from the river. Two pails on each side, one in each side, with a piece of, like a stick in between, and then you carried it with two buckets on each side. No, I'm half.

Yeah, hap, yeah, yeah. I don't know. One sole. Yeah, bamboo. From bamboo. Bamboo. Yeah. Now that time I told you all the generation only me.

I'm almost 80 years old. Right now, everything comfortable with my kids, new one not like before. Too much. Too much. Technician too much. Technology. Yeah. Yeah.

rice orisa sativa. It's like cow, it's a lot. It's a type of rice. Yeah, this is a, this a cow, this a cow, this. Oh, they're puker, yeah. She's admiring it. She's admiring it. Me, I think about when I see a cow. I just think to me, I go up with her. She said, if grandma were rice farmers.

Before you get the dish, right, la the work. She's saying before you can have one seed of rice to eat, there's so much work that goes into it. This why I teach your guy, eat right, all this don't tow the way. Yeah, I still think about that. Every time I teach all my kids, even her.

Like when we eat rice, she's like, every little grain, make sure you eat it all because for her it's it has to understand this sort of work that goes into one grain you saw your grandmother growing the rice mm-hmm then meh me didn't do a lot because she was sent to work but no one my older sit there they did a lot of the work in the rice processing they would go and stay in the rice they would go and stay in the rice fields for like a to tend to the fields and work the land what would you stay in like little little huts before there were tractors or like machines no machine you know they had a sickle and to to harvest you would have to go and you know do this manual labor with the whole on the whole land but they

would share the labor with cooperatively with like neighbors so like if if someone's rice was ready, they would all come together and harvest. And the next time someone else's rice was ready, they would help each other harvest the rice. It's not easy. So you dry the rice after it's... Harvest it. And when dry it, it's hard job. Have to be man. And my mom, Yai Wong does you have to be a man, but Grandma Wong was actually really great at this. So you have to make it into a big bunch. Put all together in dry, put a big bun, and then stay it like this.

And you stand it up once it's bunched together. And after that, they used a like to take the quai. And then after it's together to help us, we had a quai is a water buffalo. Before you to make big bun, you have to go back and think to do where. Cook up, make about 20 big bun like, and then, and then stand up make a lot.

20 bunches of the stocks of rice. And then harvested together. And then you used in the mite pie, seep, and then back, using bamboo structures to help carry them. So that they're all together. Yeah, I would use of quai to come about five times to make lead came out. Oh, so the water buffalo would just step on the rice to separate the rice from the huss.

And so when she's saying the water buffalo would have to go around at least five times. Yeah, first time, oh, very hard, and so, come on, oh, put the buffalo. The rice stocks are really tall, so the first round is really hard because they're still tall. This is why we have to milk seven times, make like that, and go back, go back. So then after the rice is off of the stocks, they took pieces of wood and like kind of like raked it in, yeah, raked it in into a pile. Yeah, wind, wind come, and you got put the it, take that this thing out. So it was a two-part, two-person project where so, you know, they'd wait for a windy day to remove some of the other, like the grass and other huss parts.

One person would sort of toss the rice and like the wind would like blow the debris away and then another person would rake in the rice. She's describing all these tools that are made out of bamboo that was used to help with the process. machine. One day, or 50 acres, 100 acres. Where did all the water buffalo go? She said, well, when they didn't farm anymore, they just sold their water buffalo. There is a project right now trying to revitalize sort of like water buffalo farming in some places, but they're mostly gone. Like, not like, not.

The rice farming right now, like uses a lot of chemicals and things like that, so it doesn't feel the same as the rice before. No machine do you. Well, we don't use machines here. We don't also, we don't have buffalo, so we just, we're the buffalo. Here we don't, yeah. She's describing how there's like a lot of land from, land from the government, a.k.a. the, like, the monarchy. So there's, like, land like that that is leased to farmers to do, like, I guess, old ways of, like, farming and processing.

Yeah. So, there's projects happening. That's good to hear. Thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm really glad you could come here today. Thank you, Heidi, for bringing your family. Yeah, thank you so much, Owen. It's really beautiful to be here with mom and aunties. You're always welcome when you want to come back to the country, life. Thank you so much to Heidi Ratanawinitz and their mom and their aunties

for speaking to us for this episode and for all the work they're doing to preserve their traditional foods. I want to read a text from Hi. Let me pull it up here that came through the morning we recorded this. Thank you so much, Owen. Listening and hearing, mom and aunties really touched me and reminded me of why I do Golden Dragon and other food projects. The hot dog part was extra sweet for me. It's inspiring me to grow a Chicago-style hot dogs garden,

including zeng shu tomatoes, white cucumbers from Thailand, Chinese celery, to name a few. And also sport pepper. Also, Heidi wrote, Golden Dragon is going to close officially at the end of the month when our lease ends. I'm passing the space along to Bunny Hop. I will continue working collectively on food projects and spaces, prioritizing self and fortune.

That's a collective they are a part of with queer Asian artists and space makers. Recentering and dipping back into a studio art practice. I feel sad about Golden Dragon, but I also know that more work. work around food sovereignty will continue. And thank you for listening and sharing this episode of Seeds and their people with your loved ones. Please share this episode with someone you love and subscribe to our show in your favorite podcast app. Thank you also for helping our seedkeeping and storytelling work by leaving us a review

and also order seeds, t-shirts, and more from our website. TrueLoveseeds.com. And again, please join our Patreon at patreon.com slash true love seeds. and submit questions for our next episode. Your support keeps the episodes coming. And remember, keeping seeds is an act of true love for our ancestors and our collective future.