Seeds And Their People - EP 32: East New York Farms and Caribbean Vegetables and Herbs in Brooklyn

Episode Date: October 24, 2024

This episode, recorded in late September 2024, features the voices and wisdom of East New York Farms youth leaders Jemel Thomas, Gaby, and Hope, as well as staff member Alexx Caceres as they talk about their community food work and seed keeping in particular. We were chatting moments before I (Owen) led a seed keeping workshop for an awesome group of community members and visitors where all had a chance to share knowledge, swap seeds, and shell several types of beans (this part was not recorded, sorry!) After Alexx, you hear from Ms. Marlene Wilks and her twin sister Ms. Pauline Reid while we sit at their farmers market table outside East New York Farms' gates during a bustling market. The two are from Jamaica and have been farming in East New York since 1990 and selling their Caribbean vegetables, herbs, and plants at this market since 2000. Several customers also share about their cultural foods: another Pauline from Jamaica, Molly from Senegal, and chef Desma Ross from Trinidad and Tobago.  FOOD AND MEDICINE MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: Callaloo (Amaranthus spp.) Bitter Melon (Momordica charantia) Long Beans (Vigna unguiculata) Jamaican Pumpkin (Cucurbita moschata) Gungo Peas / Pigeon Peas (Cajanus cajan) Shado Beni / Culantro (Eryngium foetidum) Scotch Bonnet Pepper (Capsicum chinense) Cerasee (Momordica charantia) Moringa (Moringa oleifera) Guinea Hen Weed (Petiveria alliacea) Soursop (Annona muricata) Lemon Grass (Cymbopogon citratus) LINKS: East New York Farmers Market (homepage) East New York Farms (instagram) GreenThumb, City of New York Marlene Wilks at East New York Farms Pauline Reid at East New York Farms by Leave it Better New York gardens produce Caribbean treasures - New York Times / The Bulletin A Community of Growers How East New York Farms builds food security and provides jobs for its neighborhood. - Civil Eats In the Shadow of Slavery: Africa’s Botanical Legacy in the Atlantic World by Judith Carney THIS EPISODE SUPPORTED BY: YOU! Please become a Patron for $1 or more a month at Patreon.com/trueloveseeds The No-Till Market Growers Podcast Network (which includes our friends at the Seed Farmer Podcast) Scribe Video Center and WPEB, West Philly Community Radio   ABOUT: Seeds And Their People is a radio show where we feature seed stories told by the people who truly love them. Hosted by Owen Taylor of Truelove Seeds and Chris Bolden-Newsome of Sankofa Community Farm at Bartram’s Garden. trueloveseeds.com/blogs/satpradio   FIND OWEN HERE: Truelove Seeds Facebook  |  Instagram  |  Twitter   FIND CHRIS HERE: Sankofa Community Farm at Bartram’s Garden   THANKS TO: Youth: Jemel, Gaby, and Hope Staff: Alexx Caceres and East New York Farms Ms. Marlene Wilks and Ms. Pauline Reid Customers: Pauline, Molly, and Desma Ross Elissa Fredeen of Scribe Video Center

I was just whacking at normal. Welcome to Seeds and their people. I'm Chris Bowdoin-Nusam, farmer and co-director of Sankofa Farm at Bartram's Garden in sunny southwest Philadelphia. And I'm Owen Taylor, seedkeeper and farmer at True Love Seeds. We're a seed company offering ancestral seeds grown by farmers who preserve their beloved tastes of home. for their diasporas and beyond through keeping seeds and their stories and community. This podcast is supported by True Love Seeds and by our listeners. Thank you so much to our Patreon members at patreon.com slash true love seeds,

including our most recent supporter, Eric, who brought us up to 60 patrons subscribing for as little as $1 or a pound, in this case, per month. And here's a quick word from another podcast, group that includes the seed growers podcast. We have an ad exchange with them. Hey everyone. If you're enjoying this show, you may also like the No Till Market Garden podcast with co-host Mimi Castile, Natalie Landsbury, and yours truly, Alex Ball. We interview growers, researchers, and others in sustainable ag community about everything from soil first farming practices to farm business management in the wild world of soil biology and health. So head over to your

favorite podcast platform today and subscribe to the No-Till Growers Network. work. This episode starts at East New York Farms Saturday Market with a conversation with three young people and a staff member, Alex, from East New York Farms in Brooklyn, New York, which we recorded minutes before a seedkeeping workshop I was leading for their community. When I lived in Brooklyn from 2005 to 2012 and worked at Just Food, I spent a lot of time at East New York Farms, including working with my friend and former roommate Sarita Dafferie, one of their former executive directors on their beekeeping program, leading a training of trainers for their youth and for adult community members, supporting one of their founding gardeners, Johanna Willens,

and leading herbal gardening workshops around the city and so on. I remember hearing from the next director, my friend David Vihil, that the neighbors were interested in starting a community seed library to safeguard their traditional seeds, especially Afro-Caribbean seeds. And this was something that stuck in my mind when we started imagining the existence of true love seeds. I think it was this very example that for me helped form the concept of a seed company that followed the lead of farmers and gardeners who steward their own ancestral seeds. Of course, Sankofa Community Farm's African Diaspora Garden was another very important example. By the way, David and his partner L'Oreal now live in California and gross seeds for our catalog,

donating their proceeds to East New York Farms and to True Love Seeds. Thank you to both of them. Fast forward to a couple weekends ago, the seedkeeping workshop was wonderful. It was a confluence of intergenerational community members sharing and exchanging seed and garden knowledge and seeds. Afterwards, I sat at the farmer's market table with Miss Marlene Wilkes and Miss Pauline Reed, twin sisters from Jamaica, while they sold their Caribbean vegetables, herbs, and potted plants to customers during a very lively market. It will be like you're sitting there with them. take it both as an education on Jamaican food and medicine, but also an impressionistic, immersive

view of the joys and exchanges of the farmer's market. So what kind of stood out to you from this episode? One thing that really stood out to me is I like the background sounds, the sounds of life and movement and activity, you know, at this very lively market. I've been to this market many times, and it's always a pleasure. It's always a blessing to walk through. it's kind of like going to several different countries, all in one space. So I really enjoy background noise in general, especially, you know, the laughter and the chatter

and just sort of the general exchange of culture and information. So that I really loved. One of the things that stands out to me about East New York Farms and the market that they host there is this exposure of young people to their traditional foods. I can't think of many places where that happens in such a very specific way. Of course, we do it. They were doing it before. And in some ways, and I have to imagine that, you know, that I was inspired during the founding of Sankofa by some things that I witnessed, you know, in that market.

I think just particularly having all of the deep, variety of traditional foods and medicines there and available that was the i think going to that market when we first got together was one of the first times that i had seen that you know i mean there are farmers markets but to have an intentionally culture spreading space you know i think i just i just thought that it was really wonderful uh and and i wish that they were more like it i feel very much in solidarity with that uh market of course our little farm stand is very small in comparison, but, you know, just knowing that there is a consistent location where elders can deliver knowledge to their community, I just find that very beautiful, you know, that people can do that, particularly for, you know, kids and young adults from the African diaspora. And I'm a bit envious too, I think, you know, in some way, even though I participated in that envious, I say, you know, sort of tongue in cheek, that so far away from their homes that these, you know, islanders, Jamaicans and Trinidadians and Tobogonians and all of the other folks, you know, that were caught in this segment, they have this space where they can, well, they have large sort of enclaves communities in New York where, where,

they can keep connected in some really real and powerful ways. I don't have that as a Mississippian or really as a Southerner, not here in Philadelphia, and I don't know if that's something that I would find in New York. So I find it that this market inspires me to create that. The irony, of course, is that, you know, just like in New York, which has so many diverse populations, you know, and where people can find their people rather easily, Philadelphia is a place that is, you know, populated largely by descendants of Southerners,

if not, you know, Southerners themselves, you know, so just the power to be able to keep that knowledge and to have one dedicated space where people can come and share that. I found that the interactions of the various African-descended peoples in that market really reminded me of, you know, what must have happened centuries ago throughout the Americas, you know, when we had this, you know, just this great mix of people from all over the African world in places like Brazil, in places like Charleston, South Carolina, New Orleans, you know, all of these places coming together and sharing, you know, adding their, their bits of knowledge and wisdom to the communal pot, as it were, about what to do with this herb and, oh, this

is how we use this leaf. And, you know, it must have contributed greatly to the current food and medicine ways of black peoples throughout the diaspora. So, yeah, I mean, I think there was a lot in this. It's powerful that their lives can be captured. You know, their knowledge and their wisdom can be captured like this on tape for posterity. I guess the last thing that I would say that also I really love hearing Ms. Pauline, you know, talk about her plants communicating with her. I having a sense of welcome feeling that when she walks, you know, into a house, I can really relate to that. And I think what's really powerful is that, you know, without us farmers communicating and talking a lot about this, that we have this shared experience of having a deep communication with our plants. I think that she even said that her plants woke her up, or marjoram woke her up in Jamaica.

When she was back home visiting Jamaica to tell her that they weren't getting watered. I can relate to that, you know, and I think that when we really tap in to the Earth experience, through all of the different garden rituals that we do, the hoeing the water and the planting, the singing to the plants, the praying with the plants, we do open up a channel for communication with these plants that we care for, and who also care for us. Yeah, I see on here on your notes you wrote about auntie, Miss Marlene singing Three Little Birds.

I'm curious what your thoughts were about that. Oh, yeah. I mean, I just, I noticed it. You know, I noticed that she was singing while she was working. We do that at my farm. I think just all of these connections across the African descended world with regards to food. and our farming traditions, and we don't know each other.

I've never been to Jamaica, and yet we have these very similar things that we do, which shows me, well, first and foremost, of course, that African peoples are connected, our cultures are shared, regardless of what, you know, some people may say. You know, there's a school of belief that says that all Africanisms were lost as a result of slavery. We became, you know, sort of a tabula rasa, you know, a blank slate. and were completely remade in our colonial experiences. That is a load of crap, I believe. And I think that when I get to witness moments like singing over these plants

and over these medicines, then I'm reminded, oh, wow, we do that too. I heard people singing over their plants growing up in Mississippi. We have this long tradition of singing in the field, you know. And at market, we also will see, you know, it's not a scripted thing. This is just all of these. things to me come under the umbrella, the great umbrella of food ways. And when you were talking about the end of the interview where Miss Pauline is talking about communicating with her plants, which to me was the most powerful moment as well, because it's

speaking to something that doesn't often get talked about in forums like this, the kind of spiritual nature of our work and the very intimate relationships we have with plants beyond the literal and physical, but to actually communication and learning from and learning with the plants. I found that really important. And I wanted to mention the gungo peas, because that's one of the plants she talked about communicating with, but we call the pigeon pea or gondulis. And it's a tropical plant that actually was introduced to our catalog by East New York Farms, and that doesn't get mentioned earlier in the interview. But that was introduced to us when working with David Vihil and East New York farms many years ago, you know, from Cornell Cooperative Extension or Cornell

University, you know, working with East New York farms around plants like that. And since then, we've found another gung-go pee or a pigeon pea that will work in our climate. Normally it will not produce flowers and fruit, as you can hear from Ms. Pauline's story, growing it in her house with in the window and closing the window so that it only gets 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of dark. So she was trying to work around the kind of day length sensitivity that pigeon peas have before we found these day length neutral varieties thanks to East New York Farms and others now. That's cool because I hadn't heard of anyone ever explaining how to get pigeon pea production from a tropical pigeon pea until she mentioned that on this

interview. But she didn't only mention her technique with shutting the shade. She also mentioned how she commanded the pigeon peat to produce and how the pigeon peat spoke back to her, you know, and said, it's not just my fruits. You can also use my leaves. And she, you know, she said, I didn't plant you for your leaves. But she also learned the medicinal uses of the leaves. And so to me, it really illustrates how a seed keeper, and I really believe that all of us, are seedkeepers and all of us have a green thumb people say i don't have a green thumb and it's that's about listening and the willingness to listen to the plants and all of us come from agricultural people and agricultural people are seedkeepers that's what makes us different from foragers you know hunter gatherers and so to be able to pay attention to the plant to listen to the plant to speak with the plant to hear what it's saying uh and to to you know in her case command it you know maybe in our case like ask it or pray for what we're what we're hoping for from that plant you know in the change in climate

we're able to grow more and more tropical plants but also this work is long we've been growing some tropical plants for a decade without success but seeing incremental progress because we're able to listen to the needs of the plant and start providing that so I just wanted to lift that up it's like it's part of the work that's really important is this you know some some who are maybe more skeptical might call it observation and trial and error but i think in reality it's it's communicating with the plants and listening yeah yeah this is this is one of the great problems of of western culture and in general a lot of the more modern europeanized world in general right is it reduce everything to a scientific process to strip and remove it of spirit of personality

that's what is left when when when we have fallen out of relationship with the natural world you know with the world outside then it's reduced to its constituent parts and processes you know i think about like her commanding this plant i mean there's stories in the bible of jesus you know speaking to and commanding fig trees, you know, there's something about being in relationship with these plants. People were giving all kinds of different prescriptions and coming up with all sorts of ideas in this interview. And some of them, I imagine, would get the blessing of science maybe in some way and in others, things that would say would not. It doesn't really matter for us, you know, culturally, because it's what it means to be, you know, in relationship with

these plants and with the earth that it comes from they helped to make us you know who we are and in turn again you know so there is that of us in the plants and there is that of the plants in us and that we pass that down you know through the generations like what happens at the what happens there at that space in east new york farms you know you know i don't know the science and all of that that will that will change and they they have to go back and reconfigure oh we thought it was this and actually it was really this and those sorts of things. Meanwhile, you know, what is consistent about relationships is that, you know, with plants and with the natural world, with our creation, is that even as we grow, the power of

that relationship stays the same, you know, that these foods, these plants, these herbs, these medicines help to define us. I really wouldn't trade that for anything. I wouldn't trade that for all the scientific knowledge in the world. With that, I'm going to transport you all to the East New York Farmers Market in late September, 2024. We begin by talking with several youth from the Farm Program. Hello, my name is Jamel, and right now we're at the Saturday Market at East New York Farms, located at 620 Skank Avenue.

So I'm 20 years old, and also I've been a part of East New York Farms. This is my fourth year now. Awesome. Wow. So East New York Farms is a week. older than you. Oh yeah, yeah, way older than me actually. It's been here for a long time. East New York Farms is basically a farm within East New York where we grow like a lot of different produce and also a lot of the produce which we grow is actually culturally relevant to like

different people. So let's say if you're from the Caribbean, we have some Kalilu, we have some bitter melon. If you're from, let's say certain parts of Asia, we have some greens like some bok choy and yeah we like to include like a diverse group of vegetables and also we even have some like random fruits such as like figs and also we had cherries grow here once so yeah during the summer season we actually sell some of the produce that we grow and also we even help out other farmers some other gardeners around the neighborhood we're selling their own produce and yeah we just love to see the community out here and also participating buying and also even helping out and right now we're about to have a seed saving workshop so really excited for that

i've saved some long bean seeds some bitter melon seeds and also i even i even save some uh some let's see some kalaloo so those i'd say is like the main seeds which i usually save i guess sometimes i did save some sunflower seeds but yeah it's like there's like a learning curve to it because some seeds, they have like a different process to saving it. For an example, with the long beans, you would have to wait until, like, it's fully dry. You would have to make sure that when you take out the seeds, it's instead of like a dry container. With the bitter melons, it's been a while since I saved those. But I remember that, like, when you take them out of the actual fruit, like, it's going to be, like, very wet or moist, somewhat mushy.

So there's, like, a whole process going into that one, which I just got to, like, remind myself about soon. Cool, thank you so much. No problem, you're welcome. Okay, who wants to go next? My name is Gabrio and I just turned 16. I don't want people to know that East New York Farms is trying to provide more accessible foods to people who want them and those in need for them.

So far, I've saved long beans and Kalilu seeds and I enjoy the process. Saving Kaloo seeds from what I remember, it was this way that Alex taught us, where you have to blow on the seeds so that they can, you can distribute the leftovers from the bud and the seed itself. And I feel like that process was really fun and I enjoyed it a lot. My name's Hope.

This is my first year here at East New York Farms. I like market and I like the stuff that they have like growing inside we get to take, we get to take those out the pot and we get to like replant them in the garden. For seed saving, I've um saved um long beans it was fun it was a couple of us and we just went to the um where the long beans are all hanging up and we just picked them and put them into um the basket how'd you know which ones to pick um Alex showed us what did Alex show you the um long green ones and the ones that were um not green no more the ones that were like color that potato

and yeah thank you thank you hi i'm Alex um Dave I'm pronouns. I'm the farm manager at East New York Youth Farm. So today we're at our famous Saturday market where we're selling and we're communicating and talking with people, networking, getting to know people. Right now, a cooking demo is happening. And in a little bit, Owen will be doing a seed saving workshop. I want people to know that this place is open and welcoming for folks in the neighborhood. I want people to know that they are able to come here and get food that they recognize from wherever they came from. I want them to feel like this is their home away from home. And I also want them to know that they can come and learn from seed to harvest

and also from saving the seeds as well. Nice. And we heard a little bit about the culturally appropriate food here. You know, when I think about urban farms or farms in general who are helping to feed their neighbors food that's recognizable from from wherever they come from, I think of East New York farms first. I think that's something you do really well and I'm wondering if you could give some examples of that connection and reconnection that happens here. Yeah, I think like for example, like when people come to the market and come to the farm and they've never been here before and they start seeing all the stuff that we're growing, they start feeling reconnected to those plants and they're like, oh, I didn't know that this can grow here. This is from my country or

like they'll see the Kalilu and get really excited and tell me stories about it. So, like with the stories and also like the connection to the plants, I think is very important. Some people feel like you can't do this type of work in a city, but clearly here in East New York we have over 55 like green spaces where we're growing a lot of culturally relevant food for the people who live here. So I think this space provides hope that we can be self-reliant and self-like resilient and we're able to like grow our food and also save the seeds that we're growing from. We have a thing called the share table where we have local gardeners from the area come. They come on Friday. They drop off their produce and our youth interns sell it for them.

So it's an opportunity for gardeners to actually make some type of income from what they grow. Thinking about like how hard it is to farm and how, you know, tiring it is. So we're able to like value their work through selling their produce and also like introducing the produce that they're selling and like the crops that they're growing. They also fill in the gaps for the stuff that we don't grow at the farm as well. So it's just people bringing in all types of things. So yeah. Hmm, cool. I hope to interview Miss Marlene and Miss Pauline before I leave today. And they've been here longer than I've been visiting, which is now 18 years or 19 that I've been coming to this market. And it's cool to see not only are you making space for community members, but it's

something that they've been part of consistently for a very long time. Yeah, we value a lot of intergenerational relationships, especially with the youth and the elders. They've been here before I started working here back in 2021. So they have a lot of knowledge of like what used to happen before in the neighborhood. They have extensive knowledge of like what's growing and like all the all the little cultural relevant foods that they grow, especially the Kalaloo. Like a lot of people come for their Kalaloo specifically. So it's good to see that they're still in the game and also. other people like meeting them for the first time and just like youth being able to have access

to these people who have been here for such a long time and they have like a lot of stories to give and just a lot of like valuable lessons around like agriculture. Can I say one last thing to you all? I wanted to say that East New York Farms has been providing seeds for our seed catalog since we started in 2017. It was the first group that I wanted to approach one of the first groups about partnering on seed production because of your cultural seed focus and because I just love what you all do. And I just wanted to say thank you to each of you for having a literal hand in providing the seeds that our customers are so excited about, especially the Kalaloo, you know, especially the long beans, especially the bitter melon. These are things that our customers all around

the country, Canada, the UK, who are from places that eat those foods are so grateful to have access to. So thank you from me and thank you from all of the customers too. Welcome. You're welcome. Thank you. We love you. You're welcome. All right.

Thank you. Thank you. My name is Pauline. I'm at East New York Farmers Market. I've been here since 2000. Planting, gardening, selling, interacting with the folks in the market. Awesome. And who are you?

I am one of the original gardeners in East New York. We started farming in 1995. We started selling the market 1997. So even when I was working my full-time job, we still plant and sell because we grew up on farms in Jamaica and what we did was farming. We went to school, we did farming. So all my life, I'm a farmer. Like being a teacher? Oh, teacher, executive director, whatever. I was a seam trace, musician, artist, everything. Wow.

Farming is a really relaxing experience. It helps the mind, the head, the body. So it's interesting that people who have land and just let grass grow on it, that's not a good thing. The reason you get the land is so that you should farm on it. Yeah. So where did these vegetables grow? They're grown in East New York, mainly.

And I think them have other gardens in the Bronx, in Queens. But we grow out of three gardens. New Vision, Hanson Hart, Fresh Farms, what you call this one, UCC, and the one across the other street, Tripla. So we grow our crops out of those three gardens. Triple R stand for? It's triple R stands for, rest, reflection, and relaxation.

That's the name of the garden. And new visions, what happened when we named the garden, it was a vision, a new vision we get about planting and helping people in the community. In addition to the new vision, they used to dump garbage and all kind of garbage and different things on the land. So part of the vision is to,

reclaim the land and utilize it appropriately. And so that's how it was called New Vision. Instead of garbage dumping, it used it to do farming. And how did you all get connected? I am one of the, what would I be a customer, I guess. And the reason why I enjoy coming here compared to say downtown Brooklyn, I know that the vegetables are fresh, organic, no pesticides. no pesticides so I trust that and I even come here to cut my own Kalaloo because it's

therapeutic so and I've known them now for a couple years I'm trying to remember exactly but I'm Pauline and for me coming to the market you know growing up in Jamaica at similar vegetable fruit trees so it's kind of like being home that way from home what did you buy from their their market today oh wow I have I have spinach I have tomatoes I have some perementa leaves I have color green color loo dashing leave yep let's just say I'm quite happy going home wonderful thank you what is your name Pauline thank you nice to meet you hi guys I'm run across the street catch a bus okay dad all right how did you first connect with East

New York Farms so we move here 1990 and there was a lot of garbage in on this section now that we call new visions so what and then when we move here first the community members were really like working together so what we did we hired a truck and clean up the area and that's when we started planting so we planted flowers and some pumpkin the first year and then my daughter planted a pumpkin in the backyard oh my god when we picked the pumpkin it weighed over 20 pounds and so we decided someone had told us about the city and i don't i don't remember if we actually went or they came but it was the city who told us we had the privilege to use the properties because they're all city properties so and then we

started and we get lots of support from the cities we get compost we get soil and we get tools and seeds and lots of things so the city is who help us and you two are family right we are twins I live in Canarsie. I bought a house in 98, so I had backyard, so I used to do my planting. So when they opened up the garden at New Vision, my sister invited me over. And so I got my first three beds, and I was so excited. And from that, you know, we start and then...

I think my aunt used to come to the market. Aunt Isie, she was the one. I think that's how we heard about the... about the market and when the market was in the lot over there we started planting and selling and so when the translation happened from there to here we still continue so I've been in the market since 2000 okay so you actually have a very interesting project on your lap right now where you're sorting beans by how what are you doing with the beans actually

technically what I do I dry them one of the mistake we made when we go to reap, we throw all the beans together. So after I shell them, and because there are so many different ones, we sort them out, dry them, and plant them. So hopefully next year when I do the planting, I will section out the sections and plant and then reap them by themselves. So I don't have to take all this time trying to separate them.

And why do you keep these ones separate instead of altogether? What is important about the different varieties? Because beans have different tastes, and you use them for different things. So if you don't really, if you don't keep them together, naturally people won't buy. So if they see red kidney beans, that's what they'll buy. If they see different kinds, that's how it's sold. Some people like black beans, some like white beans and so on. So you can't keep them all together because a lot of people won't buy them.

What's your favorite bean on your lap right now? These black beans. What makes that one special? Oh, because it's so black and it's really, I think what they are though, they're not, they grow on, they are pole beans. And these broad ones, black ones, they are pole beans. So actually, pole beans are like string beans, but they don't grow flat like string beans, like string beans they grow upon the runner so you pick them and you cook them like string

beans yeah wonderful sorry I don't want to interrupt your sales would you like halaloo calla loo sit in front are you this one right yeah I don't know I like my spinach but I don't like to use to mix the halaloo and spinach together no no no that's a spinach yeah but it's very they give me a different text no no no taste you color by itself with salt fish and whatever else yeah i don't eat it that way i do with the other the different version so i like to mix mine so give me a different taste you're buying this food you don't have that okay can i ask you where you got got these beans i went i went i i brought beans from jamaica and i brought beans from italy

This one. It's brown with like darker brown speckles. Uh-huh. And this kind is from I brought from Italy. It's like purple with tan speckles. Right. The others, I am not sure. Okay.

Which one? Yes. Extremely good for the eyes. I eat pumpkin every day, but I do steam it and eat it. How do you make it? Do steam it, cut it, put it on and steam it. Put it on a steamer, don't put it in water and eat it. Every day I eat.

Some of these beans we get from green thumb, from the city. They're beautiful, there's so many different speckles and stripes. You see some I have at the house now that I reap. And oh my God, when the people come in here, they kill themselves over the kidney beans. They love kidney beans, you know, kidney beans? I do, yeah. The red beans, they love it. It's bitter?

Oh, bitter melon. So bitter is good for the liver. Wait, wait, wait. The bitter melon, I usually like to put it with my tea. Okay. And it's actually good because they give you that. You have it? Yeah, so on your right.

See that bush? This is bitter melon? Yeah, yeah. Can that taste it? Sure, darling. When you make that tea? this morning to the sound of your tea just a little bit in your tea and you can dry just a dollar and you can't dry it so dry it in the kitchen put it in a brown bag don't put your don't put your

herbs in any plastic it no what else do i'll put it in here i'll cut up dry it and put it in a brown bag and when you're ready to make your tea you take a few leaves and make your tea ground bag you're talking about? No, paper bag? Yeah, any brown. Okay, no, but what I'm saying is when I make my tea, I like to cut a little bit and put it inside there. So it's just drinking and then it helps.

No, so what I'm saying, yes. About a thing. That's what I'm going to try. Oh, let it dry. Okay, that's good, okay. It's going to be all right. Yeah, I like that, that, um. You like you taste?

Yeah. About of me. That's every little thing. Gonna be all right. That's the two. And then... This morning. To the sound of the rising sun.

Two little birds. No, I'll just get one in the next week. I'll get something else. So you're going to take the pumpkin? Yes, I just gave her... Give me money. Yeah. Give me a dollar.

See what? These were here. Two dollar take one for dollar. What is this good for? There are tea bushes. Oh, tea bushes. That's how what happens for the nerve and to make you sleep. Nerve and make you sleep?

Yeah. Very good. Okay. So all I have to do is boil this and just drink it just like that. No sugar. Don't boil all of it one time. No, no, no, I know. We have this from our country.

Okay. Which country are you from? On West Africa. Really? Yeah. How you didn't tell us before? I didn't know. Come on, all these years I've been coming here and you were all the way around the corner.

But we're not here in African language. It's okay because the dialogue went off. Yeah. So where in West Africa gone? Senegal Mauritani. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, we have our own tea we actually make and it's a very healthy field.

So I'm trying to stay away from the sugar and go back to the natural. Smart girl. So you said that sugar. Yes. But the unsulfurred blackstrap molasses, it's a sugar bar product. It's a use one tablespoon. Yeah, I'm practicing. So do that.

Where you guys from? Jamaica, Guineas. Jamaica? Oh, okay. Can I ask you a question? Yes. Can you say why you came to their market today? My name is Molly.

I've been coming in here for years because they would know more about certain things. Because from where I'm from, we all grow. all of this stuff so this is the one thing that we eat from and this is one thing that helps us so every day we can stay you know from eating frozen fruit and then have a little bit of different way of cooking because everybody cooked differently you know she was telling me about hard culture of eating like you know don't mix this together but for us we have a different way of cooking certain things so but you can blend it in and it still tastes good you're from senegal west africa but you come buy food from jamaicans because there's a

clearly a overlap. We all from the same thing. So I've been coming here for years, and I always come in here and see her. She always telling me one or two things. You know, after time being young, you get older, and you'll be wise. What am I going to make with the tomato?

I'll make some rice. I don't know if you know, jellof rice. Oh, yeah. It's from Jamaica, um, Nigerian. A full cup, right. Yeah, but we normally make it back home. And they always say jellof rice. But from Senegal people, they make it.

The tomato? Yeah. There's something in tomato called lycopene. Lycopene, which helps to prevent prostate cancer. But the tomato also have to be cooked. If you don't cook it, you don't get the lichopine from it. What I was telling my dad, like certain things that he eat, I was telling him eat avocado.

It's very good for him. Just, you know, just cut it and just eat it. It gives him a different texture when he, you know, when he told me he had a cold, look, let me go make some soup. The best soup for cold and flu is chicken soup, but the kind of chicken they're making in the lab, no. You can't use those chicken. You either buy the live chicken or you get the cornish hen. You either get the carnage and or the live chicken. But when you cook it, it has to be cooked with the skin.

Yes. There's some. I take the skin off because you know why there's so much grease. No, you clean the chicken, but for the soup, for the cold and so. The skin is under the skin, that the thing that the father put in it is, that takes care of the cold and the fruit. Oh, right? It's under the skin that the thing is to take care of the problem.

So if you get rid of the skin, you're not getting what you need. So if you buy the regular chicken, no. But you buy the condition, now you go to this, where they raise. in life falls and you use those that one is more help you stay out of the hospital better than you actually eating the one from frozen because you don't know how long it's been there you know I'm telling you honestly one day I when I was living in Crown Heights had my two sons I went to buy chicken it was an empire the supermarket so when I when I walked up and I look at the chicken going to get

the chicken a voice said to me How come those chicken look so dead? And that was years ago. And from that, I never went into the supermarket and buy another chicken. There was a live chicken farm on Utica, and I make it my business to go there. And I never went back to the supermarket. The Cornishen doesn't have any treatment in it.

So I don't eat meat anymore. So if somebody is sick, I go. Go get cornish and make soup for them. Here we hear from a customer named... Desmeros, who starts with her bitter melon recipe. Where are you from? Trinidad, the beautiful islands of Trinidad and Tobago. So how do you make yours?

Cut it in half, I take all the seeds out. I soak it with some salt, sea salt, for maybe an hour or two. And I wash it out completely. Then I cut it up very small. I put some oil, coconut oil and I put

you know well we blend with seasoning but you could put garlic the red onions whatever onions you have

on a low heat to caramelize and then you put it in and it's on a low heat let it fry up until it get tender and you could you could put

you could put a piece of punking with it cut it up and put it with it so cut it very fine yeah and put it with it and you could have it with um a roachy skin you could have it with bread bake or whatever it come like a like a breakfast spat yeah I miss the recipe I miss the recipe what's your recipe for bitter melon and we take all this

you don't cook it with cardfish you can do it caught fish uh-huh smoke herring the Herring, yeah, same thing. Smok herring in a while. See, I'm a chef. Wow. Yeah, you always come here with my food. Most of my stuff is organic. Yes, I belong to the food co-op in part slope.

Yeah, for 24 years. So when I cook, it's a passion for cooking. I cook with love. I encourage healthy eating. How do you find the foods from home? I go to the food corop. Corp, I go to places like here. For the seasoning, I will have to go maybe Queens

to get the local stuff. Shadow Benny? Yeah, Shadow Benny. I'm not seeing it here, and I notice. Okay, you see how we have cilantro? It's like a constant of cilantro. The leaf is long. Where are you going?

When I'm making salsa, I put Shadow Benny in it. It's an old green seasoning. Yeah. Which peppers are you, Scotch Bonnet? Scotch bonnet, yeah. Scorpion pepper is from Trinidad, the hottest pepper on earth. Oh my God, it's hot. A pepper?

Yeah. You know, I grow on my farm, I grow a rice from Trinidad, hill rice from Maruga. Yeah. Do you ever grow rice or you? No, never grow rice. Oh, my God. I've seen rice growing in the lagoon already, yeah.

But I don't eat too much rice, but I do like the black rice is a forbidden rice. Oh, yes, that tastes good. that's really good. They have a lot of fiber because I encourage healthy eating. Well, I used to do it in Trinidad, but because of my background in the medical, I've worked in the operating room for many years

and I've seen a lot of stuff. So if I can encourage people to eat healthy, they won't have to cross the paths in the operating room and it starts with food. How are you going to cook your Kalilu? Well, you know, you wash it, of course. I cut it up. garlic garlic onions you know the green seasoning and I will kind of fried up then I'll put the

coconut juice in it and put it on a low fire and let it saute do you ever put meat in it or fish at the side because I don't eat me but I do cook meat for people but I go to like old foods and stuff like that I eat salmon I eat some pogeys, but not all the time. Can I ask you more questions? Oh sure. What are the most important foods on this table to you and why? Most important food on the table would be the Kalaloo.

One of our experiences having been selling in the market for such a long time. As soon as you bring bundles and bundles of Kalaloo, it's the first thing. It's the first thing that disappear. The people come, and they come and they ask and they order and all of that. So that's one of the most important things we say. Why are people so excited about it? I don't know. It's just how people like it. I mean, remember a lot of Caribbean people come to this market.

So I think maybe it's part of their original vegetables. So they really, maybe that's the reason. as soon as you come and they fuss when you don't have and all of that so it's one of the most important things you sell it's very comforting right to eat a pot of Kalaloo I guess maybe also to the nutrients and different things that's in it yeah it's one of the most popular seeds in our catalog out of 400-something varieties it's one of the biggest sellers a quick editorial note we've mentioned in Kalaloo many times, and I wanted to say that it is both the name of a dish and African

dish that has translated to the New World, so to speak, to the Caribbean in particular, that is based primarily on Amaranth greens. And there's certain species of Amaranth native to Africa and certain species to the Americas, and the new Amaranth were adopted to make the classic dish in the new world and in the book in the shadow of slavery africa's botanical legacy in the atlantic world by judith carney she mentions these things and she also mentions that an important variant of the dish is gumbo and that instead of greens okra is the green vegetable but that they're very closely related dishes so yeah so the dish is called calaloo the the greens are called calilu and in this case we're talking about Amaranth Greens but there's also in other countries like

in Trinidad and Tobago they use tarot leaves or dashin bush or Kalaloo Bush as it can be called and in other places people use cocoa yam so it can be many things and in this case it's Amaranth Greens you also shared Sarah see seeds with us that we now have in our catalog can you tell us why that's so important. Ceresy? Did you know that Ceresy, we grew upon it. It's for, if you have fever, if you have any problems and so on, we use Ceresy.

But when I came here and we get to recognize the bitter melon, it's the same family. So the cirrus in Jamaica, it grows a small fruit, but it's really a drink. It's not something we eat, it's something we boil for certain sickness. certain sickness and so the seracy so the leaf you harvest the vines i see you have some bundles of are those sarasi vines or from the that's we don't call that seracy that's a bitter melon leaves but in jamaica we call it seracy oh okay what makes seracy and bitter melon different i don't think because the fruit the ferrisi is small but the bitermen is long but it's the same family. And then you recently sent me seeds for the Jamaican pumpkin and we're

hoping to have it in our catalog this year if the farmer is successful. Can you tell us what makes what is the Jamaican pumpkin like for people who aren't familiar? Well because we have a different variety of pumpkins. We have pumpkins with 30 pounds, 25 pounds, 40 pounds, huge pumpkins and different shape. So when we're going to the supermarket, we're not actually seen Jamaican pumpkins. You don't see these little pumpkins, but we have a variety of pumpkins in Jamaica. So that's why we like them. So the Jamaican pumpkin, is it always round like this and squat?

All different shapes? One we sold, today it's a very long pumpkin, so it's big and it comes down and it opens up. They are all different varieties. It has a shape. So are they all, the ones that you grow, are they all shaped like that, or is they mixed? No, it's a mix. It's a mix. We have small. It's a variety. And they seem to have stripes, green and white or green and... They have different. It's different. They don't all look alike. They don't all look alike. They're like really different.

So what makes them a Jamaican pumpkin? If they're all so different. Well, maybe it's the climate, and one of the things I could imagine is because there's such a diverse population in Jamaica, it could be that the pumpkins originally come from different countries. Okay, and how do you like to cook the Jamaican pumpkin? And what's the texture like and the flavor? It's great, but one of the thing is, for example, I was in Jamaica. just we went the 10th and what I find is the pumpkin that I get there when you when you cut it and you put it in the steamer like in five minutes it's ready I said damn this is really good how fast it's cooked and it's really some of them are sweet like sugar but it's are really healthy and they have beautiful colors

Yeah, it looked like a deep orange color inside. Beautiful colors. Well, and then how would you prepare it beyond steaming it? Well, if you're putting it in soup, you put it in soups. But like, we generally steam it. So you don't, because the nutrient in it, you have to be careful. Because when you put it in the water to boil to take it out, most of the nutrient leaks into the water.

So it's better if you steam it. Thank you so much. Have a go on. I see that you have Meringa seeds. Because the other one I didn't water it yet. So, I don't remember where we got the moringa seeds. I think I got it here from an African lady and I brought it to, and we planted it. We have huge moringa trees in our yard.

And you know, when you look up the nutritional benefits of moringa, you cannot believe the amount of benefits this plant. has. The seeds, everything. So it's interesting and that's something that everyone should have. And do you use it mostly as a tea or do you cook with it? We use it as a salad and we use it as a tea. So if you were making it with salad, would it just go in a regular garden salad? It's very bitter. It's not all that bitter. I mean, I like it, but it's a very strong flavor. But it's extremely nutritious. The other thing is that we have a lot of in Jamaica is breadfruit. And let me tell you, when we were growing up, we just eat breadfruit after.

But then you realize breadfruit has all the vitamins. It has potassium. It has magnesium. It's one of the greatest fruit on the planet. And people don't know. Too bad we can't grow it in our garden here. No, we can't. That's a problem. We can't grow breadfruit here. Now, I'm going to get this plant from you, but I'd love if you could tell us more about it.

What's the name of it and what is it used for? It's called guinea hen weed. And if you look up the medicinal benefits, it's for calls, it's for flus, it's for different things. But the most important thing, it's for prostate cancer. How would I use it? You make tea with the leaves. So you keep it in the pot now because the winter is coming, so you have to bring it inside, and put it at the window where you have lights. Okay, and then in the summer you can put it in a bigger pot.

It's going to grow tall, and you get the leaves and everything. How do you propagate them? You make these, you propagate them yourself? No, yes, it stays and it's going to grow a new plant. From out there. Oh, from the soil? Yes. From the root is going to grow new plants.

So in the summer, what you can do now, you throw it out and then you separate the plants and plant them in new pots. They'll have roots on them already? Definitely, they'll have roots. Oh, I'm excited. Is this one that you're familiar with from the Caribbean? Yeah, yeah, this is from the Caribbean. Okay.

Actually, if you come to my house in Montague and Jamaica now, we plant it all around the back. So much? Oh yes, you plant it and it's all there. Why do you plant that much near the house? No, we plant one or two plants and then there's seeds. The seeds send out and then you see all, lots of it in the back. So it's not like we plant all of those. Okay.

Can you tell me about some of these plants that you can you tell me about some of these plants that you're that have medicinal uses and their names and what they're for? This one is a spider plant, which is used to clean the air. So that's what I know about, the spider plant, they're used to clean the air. Cleaning the air with this plant. It's going to clean the air from toxins. Well, alloys use for the skin, for sunburn, and I just know this for sunburn, and for clean, cleaning the intestine.

And then you have many dried leaves. I see lemongrass, marynga, soursop. Oh, she sell those, I don't. Oh, okay. She told me you were the herbalist. Oh, oh, so the soursop is for nerve. And the maryngas, somebody told me it helps the eye by drinking it. Then you have the lemon grass that helps you to sleep.

One of the interesting thing about plants, people just see. plants as plant they are living things so my plants communicate with me and sometimes I go to the garden to water and if I miss something I'm passing son I would hear in my head what you didn't water me so I turned back and I go water so so yeah so they they do communicate I remember I went to Florida I had went out and because I have a lot of house plants and when I came home nobody was home but when I came in the house I felt it's welcome and I'm saying but nobody's here and it was a little after that I realized it was the plants and then this is a joke I went to Jamaica and left my plants I had this Marjorone I love Marjoran plant and so it was on the

party on my neighbor that is seven dollars and my neighbor was supposed to take care of the plants and so it didn't get any water and I'm lying in my bed in Jamaica and the morning I'm waking up and I see the shelf with the plant comes on right at my bedside

and the margarine was sitting right there and the soil was dry and it was drying down I got up I called my neighbor I called my tenant I said Steve the marjoran just came and told me that she didn't get any water and when I came back to

Brooklyn she was almost dying but she came and showed me that she didn't get any water wow that is powerful why are you so drawn to the marjoram I don't know from I was small and the turnip

I don't know there's something about them so you must be taught by the plants all the time how to care for them oh yeah I have another plant store I had a gungo plant from Jamaica

so my sister told me one year she's going to give you a number for me okay I'll be right with you you want to stand under it so you don't get wet all right so I plant the cuck the gungo and she said for the gungo to bear here it has to get 12 hours a son

and 12 hours of of dark so I put it in a bedroom when I'm going to work I close the window when I come home when I'm going to work I open up the window when I come home I close it up turn off the light

so one day it was beautiful so I walked in there and I said I was very mad with the plan and I said do you think I planned you for your beauty or just you're spreading yourself like a green bay tree and I was so mad and when I got on the threshold

up to live in the room this is what I heard, but my leaves have use. I walk over to the plant and said, did I plant it for your blasted leaf? I was so mad with the plant. So anyway, I went to the computer and I checked it out. And you would be surprised the amount of use they use a gungo leaf to do. So I went back and apologized to the plant.

And about two weeks after when I go and pull the window, I saw two big bunch of blossom and it stays right in the room it bore and stay there and dry and I use and I speak to the plants all the time that's amazing to them and if they're not bearing I quarrel with them and they either blossom or a beer and they talk back to me I talk to the plants too I think back they don't as a matter they do when a When I bought the house and I moved, my friend came out. So I have lots of plants. So I put them on the window and put the couch, you know, just lying the couch.

And so when I sit my back to the plant, and my friend who came to help me, she got up early morning and she called me. She said, a lady came and told her that I cannot turn my back to the plants. So I have to move the couch. And then when I bought the house, I have some plants in my house now I never had them but in between wake and sleep

I saw them sitting on the window so I had to go downtown and buy them and bring them and so where I lived I had tenants upstairs and I was downstairs and it was very hard for me with enough

so I'm trying to decide should I go upstairs should I stay downstairs oh one morning I got up before I wake up I saw all the plants sitting upstairs on the bay window. They show me themselves. That means go upstairs.

How do you explain this connection you have to the plants? I don't know from I was small. Maybe all of us are connected, but we're not listening. Thank you very much. Well, I think maybe, you know what? Maybe it's a special gift that the creator gave me. But I really, don't, no, keep it in the bottle. okay all right so you know it's a special gift from the Creator yeah from God

yep because from I was small I had this affinity with plant and so you learned how to grow gungo peas where they don't normally grow right and there's a lot of plants like I was teaching in Portland and one day it's some cherries and I had them I look at them I put them on a window, they dry and I plant them. And a guy was passing and he said, oh my God, you know how long I have been trying to grow these things? They never grew. How did you get the shirt?

And anything, I look at, one time my cousin gave me some cactus plant. And when I came, most of the degree fell down. And I look at it and I said, what should I do with it? And my voice said to me, just plant them back. And I push them down on the ground and every one of them catch. Which kind of plant? The cactus. Cacto.

Thank you first. I'm glad that you's told me this. This is beautiful. Thank you. Okay. All right. All right. Thank you.

So stay close to your plan. Okay, I have to go. But thank you so much for letting me interview you. You're welcome, my donald. It's so nice to see you for such a time. long time. Good to see you too. I'm so grateful. Thank you so much to Jamel, Gabrielle, Hope, Alex, Ms. Marlene and Ms. Pauline and their customers, Pauline, Molly, and Desma. Thank you also to Alyssa Fredine of Scrib Video Center and WPEB, West Philly's Community Radio,

for helping with editing suggestions and getting our show on the radio on Thursday afternoon. afternoons in West Philly and online. And thank you for listening and sharing this episode of Seeds and Their People with your loved ones. Please share this episode with someone you love and subscribe to our show in your favorite podcast app. Thank you also for helping our seed keeping and storytelling work by leaving us a review and also ordering seeds, t-shirts, and more from our website.

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