Seeking Derangements - SD 513 - Empowerment Boots w/ Steven Phillips-Horst

Episode Date: July 12, 2026

It's Seeking Sunday! Ben here. Today, writer, podcaster, and fellow evil gay Steven Phillips-Horst joins me. We discuss sublet season, how Steven's stint working with a women's plus-size boot company led him to write a play about ecological collapse, and why I was recently yelled at for lingering near a sandwich. We also consider the long running Twitter tradition of gang beating the Gay Guy Group Photo, and what happened when Steven found himself at the center of one of those pile ons. Go see The Last Mad Man at Fringe, tickets here: https://assemblyfestival.com/whats-on/the-last-mad-man?utm_source=ig&utm_medium=social&utm_content=link_in_bio

Could you say that again, please, Steve? Sorry for my tardiness. You are forgiven. I believe it or not, almost every single other episode of this show has, I'll leave the they, them unnamed, but it's about 30 minutes late each episode. So don't worry, you are. You're more than welcome to be late. Plus, you're a guest. You're in London, chap.

I'm in London, mate. Love, brough. Boy, I'm in London. Oh, I hear those keys rattling. It's sublet season, bitch. Yes. It's a fucking sublet season girl. Do you know where your daughters are?

They're picking up that router to look at the Wi-Fi password. They're checking it underneath. You are in London. I am in New York City. I just made it to my sublet like two days ago. Where in London are you? So I'm in Stratford as my neighbor. And Edinburgh said, she was like, where do you stay when you're in London?

And I was just like, oh, well, I'm staying at a friend's house in Stratford. She goes, oh, well, that's not London. Is that like queen, the equivalent of like queens or something? Are you in like deep queens? Deep queens. It's giving Jamaica, for sure. It's definitely giving Jamaica. Island vibes.

It's giving you had to get on the L-I-R. And you're kind of just like, whoa, okay. I can't see any of the buildings. I'm in Morningside Heights. I just made it. Wait, are you at like a hundred and ninety second street? No, I'm on 111th. Okay, that's not so bad.

I'm a blocker from Central Park. It's been really chic, honestly. I think I'm more remote than you. In respect of, in our respective cities, I think you are closer to the beating heart of culture and finance than I am. Yes. Have you ever been chastised for lingering before? In what sense?

In like, at a sex party or like in a business? It's something that happens to me too frequently. And I'm, I, because I don't want it to be about how scary or like ominous, I as an individual might look. I have been chopping it up to like, oh, it's a homophobia thing. So I've been asking other gay guys if they get accused of like lingering or loitering or kind of like. You're saying in a public square, in a public space, someone comes up to you. An old, a cunty old white woman with pearls comes up to you. And she's just like, are you supposed to be here?

We have somewhere to be. Are you meeting someone? No, literally. That doesn't happen to you? Hmm. You know, I'm such a chameleon. I can really just move in between spaces. For the record, Stephen has some mutton chops at the moment.

I know. I'm always getting clocked as like an intern, as like the world's oldest intern. That's constantly happening to me. Okay, well, that's actually just homophobic. And it is homophobic. No, I think often, often what I get is in a very, fancy space someone who is so a worker so a low on the wrong worker right clocks me as like not being like a billionaire and and they'll be a little bit just like do you have a do you have an appointment

do you have are you meeting someone which is basically like what are you doing yeah exactly like i don't think you belong so i'll get that see i don't get the i don't get the i don't get the what are you doing here i more get the like you need to leave It's not even that polite. I say this because I was at, I have this co-working space that I enrolled at, which is like really humiliating to admit, but I was like, you enrolled. Congrats, you got it. Thank you.

They accepted my application. But I was, I mean, it's long story, but the room I'm in, like, doesn't have an AC. I don't want to get an AC for it. So I'm like, I don't want to be working at this, like, what is a pretty small bedroom. And so I, like, found this place that's called the Commons and it's on the Upper East. Anyways, I went in yesterday for my first shift at the cold working space. There's this like, I walk in at like noon, right? Which is like lunchtime for all of these like chikas.

Is it like 49 a month for hot desking? It's 350 for a reserved desk in a big room. What? It's not that bad. It is not that bad. What? That is that bad. Okay, but consider it. You can get a reserved desk at Starbucks.

What do you mean? I don't want to work at Starbucks. And I have to record. That's more than an Equinox membership. That's insane. I have to record and I have to be there for like eight hours, like video editing. But you can't record at an open, in a desk in a room with a bunch of people. But they have phone booths that you can go sit in and record.

But don't, aren't they being very like, please keep your calls to 30 minutes? other people need the booths. Right. And can you stop shouting about how bedrooms like transgender and the phone booth? I'm waiting for that conversation, which has not happened yet. But I walk in and they were the, what I will describe as the administrator slash nurse ratchet of this space is like lay on a bunch of sandwiches. And I like go sit up at my desk and then I walk behind her like into the kitchen air to get a coffee. And she turns to me and she goes, no lingering.

this lingering will not make the sandwiches come faster ben welcome to the space but please no lingering the sandwiches will take five to ten minutes please do not linger and she shouted literally nine months pregnant mind you shouting at me for and i was like bitch you think i want this trough slop i'm not touching this these open air sandwiches you're just throwing all over the table they way the way i would have been gathering your purse to my purse for later Okay, but she's being more like camp counselor, Lanyard, like, assistant principal vibes who, like has your back, even though she is calling you out for being late.

And she's like, we can't have a stampede in here. Everyone lingering will not make these sandwiches come faster. Did she call you out by name? Yes, and she welcomed me because she knew that, and she knew who I was because I had, like, called him. I was like, I'll be there tomorrow. I had, like, this whole issue with, like, getting access to the place. So she was like, she knew it was made because she was already, like,

your chika on the inside. No, she was annoyed with me because I was like, how do I get into this co-working space? She's like, so you have to download app called Kesey and then you have to like verify your account, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, can you just open the door for me? And she's like, so actually we like stopping staff at 530 and you are showing up at 930. And I'm like, I'm going to fucking kill you. We already had beef.

We already had beef. But I was like, I'm just trying to get coffee. I'm not even trying to get a sandwich. But suffice to say, new enemy just dropped at the co-working space and I will be battling her day and day out until she pops because she's like nine months. Oh, great. Okay. Well, then she'll be on maternity leave. I'm sure the comments has extremely generous maternity leave policies over there. They have a birthing center in the back that's $450 an hour. It's an interesting relationship, you know, in a sacred third space,

and one of our vanishing third spaces that the commons is replacing. Because it's like, you're on the one hand, like, you are paying $300. $250 for the privilege of sitting at a desk. And so in some senses, like, you are, you know, you're Mr. Fancy Pants. Like, you are like the family at Downton and she's one of the maids. Right. And yet at the same time, she views herself in this managerial position, position of authority, and you have this sort of like persnickety, suss, shifty-eyed, pip-squeak quality

that people just instantly put you into the space of just like, he's going to be a problem. I'll take all of it besides persnickety. I think I'm not persnickety. A pipsqueak, shifty, all of the above, yes. Persnickety, no. You know what's very persnickety is to take issue with the adjectives that we're used to describe you. I am not for stigone.

I go with the flow. No, it is like, it does kind of feel like camp, for sure, Which is the vibe I don't like, but I do prefer it to Starbucks. And I will just say the apartment is $600 a month, which I'm like, okay. Well, that's nothing. That's free. Right. So I'm like, okay, I'll add on the $350 co-working space and kind of just. I just feel like you go to a we work for like 50 a month or something.

Did you research this before? I kind of with just like what's closed and what looks like the least offensive, you know? Right. Because it's not like super like millennial. It's just kind of like an office space with like windows and like private rooms that you can rent if I want to like record in. It was more due to like the function of it unless like I'm not the fact that they weren't weren't doing pizza Thursdays that they weren't doing like IPA Fridays. That was a benefit. Well, it turns out they're doing sandwich fucking Tuesday and you can't linger.

So it's just end up in the same position no matter what, I guess. Anyways, I was hoping that you would be accused of lingering and that it wasn't just due to me. but I think it is just due to my to me. What, no, but I mean, in the context of free food, honey, I'm lingering, okay? At the wedding, when the caterers are coming out, I'm parked like as close to the kitchen as possible while still allowing them like enough space

to kind of like at least exit the kitchen and look like they're beginning to circulate. Just like hiding behind the big, floppy kitchen door and reaching your arm around to grab the first tray of orders. Just like shoving into your face behind the door. Wait, do you remember after we recorded Celebrity Book Club in Midtown, you and Lily went out to that one bar and there was like a private room in the back. And you were like, Ben, watch this. Lily's a fucking feed.

And Lily came back with like five bruchetta and just like ate all of that. And this is, this is what I was saying. I've been that girl, always be that girl. Like if food is free, even if it's not free for me, I'm taking it. Like, no matter the quality. Put out, like it will come faster if I linger. So your camp counselor, lanyard hoe, can suck it. You're the youngest child.

Of course. Well, that's runt of the litter behavior. You have to get to the teat fastest and suck as long as you can. That's the theory, usually with youngest children. So that's one theory. I think the, I think, I don't think mine comes from place of. Then you're not Jewish. Surprisingly, to almost everyone I know, I'm not Jewish.

So. Even though I look extremely Jewish. Um, and I'm neurotic. And I'm from like a very Jewish. suburb of Boston, et cetera. No, I think the youngest sibling, though, is also, like, the most spoiled sibling. It's also the sibling with the least supervision. Because the younger sibling, the parents, like, don't care anymore.

They realize that, like, all of the, like, you know, fears they have with the first child didn't necessarily come to fruition. They're like, oh, whatever. It doesn't matter. And so they're much more absentee as parents on the second child. And so the second child is just, by definition, naughtier and, like, more perverted. Right, right, right. Right. I'm trying to think of that kind of holds up for my family, although I have a younger sister and an older brother.

But my brother is so just like what you would call like a delta male, like just shows up to work fulfills his duties, like nice. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Forgive me if you've discussed this on your world famous podcast before. But a delta male is that below beta? I don't really, no, no, no. It's above, it's above beta. I think it's like below alpha. It's below alpha. But these are like the functionaries of society. you know, the factory workers, the blue-collar guys. The grunts, he's an orc. Throw him in the meat grinder. Send him to Ukraine. Yeah, like, yes.

Well, we all, we've talked about this. You and I have to talk about this before. If you have an older brother, or if you're gay, you have an older brother, most likely. But my younger sister is also very kind of Delta female coded. She, like, has a degree. She has a good job. She works for the government. She has a house at like 24, you know?

That's so crazy. Well, Des Moines, Iowa. Oh, okay. I mean, they're giving them. him away over there. $200,000 for like a three-beder house. That's crazy. In a nice like centralized neighborhood. So the down payment is what 10 grand? It's like that's nothing. Yeah, she did it. I'm like what the fuck? And then so it's all just to say I is like the middle child. I think maybe I just got the triple whammy of like gay middle child forgotten syndrome. What's the what's the third thing

in the triple whammy? Lupus. I'm just trying to think of something. I don't know. Something's going on. Something is clearly going on. Being an elitist, being like a fake cultural elitist, probably. Yeah. No, it's a burden. It's, no, I'm sorry. Having taste is a burden.

It is. It is. Speaking of taste, Stephen, your taste maker. If you don't know Stephen for his articles or for celebrity book club, you may know him for his freaking play, which is showing at fringe. Yes. Yes. If you don't know me for my articles or from my podcast, you definitely know me for my one-man

show, which will be. premier net fringe. It sounds amazing. I love the concept. It is. It is really good. I'm saying that not because you're here. I've been wanting to see it, but of course, I'm like, I don't, I'm not going to Scotland, no offense.

Well, I think, I'm hoping that if all goes well, we'll be looking at either a London run or a New York run. Period. Because I'm assuming that demand's going to be through the roof. It better be. But no, it's a, it's a narrative show, so it is fiction. People hear one-man show.

here's a thing. It's like you talking about how big your pussy is or something. Well, exactly. So most, like, so Fringe is this festival in Edinburgh where I also happen to live randomly. And everyone, it's like a lot of stand-up comedy and it's a lot of like

autobiographical one-folk shows that are like, you know, about some trauma. Is it that like slam poetry? I thought it was more like comedy. But it's like the moth. It's, but it's the moth. It's, but it's the moth. It's in the net.

You know, It's the net, it's the moth. It's like, I got in a car accident and that's why I'm trans. I mean, that actually is pretty cool. I would go to that one. There's a lot of those. It's got a car accident and that's why I'm autistic. I got my dad died and that's why I'm autistic.

My dad died and that's why I'm trans. There's a lot of it. It's always like some trauma and some identity and everyone's just like, oh, it's a fascinating look at like, oh my God, what if you're half American and half French? Whomp, yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot of that. Mine is narrative. It's fiction. It does star me. It is about a guy named Stephen. But it's a true play. It's written, acted. It's not just someone up there, you know, telling their life story. I'm not holding it to Mike. I actually have like a Britney headset mic, which is really cool. I've seen some photos of it. You look pretty good at that. So yeah, so it's about a advertising copywriter at the end of the world. So it's kind of a surrealist satirical romp. And it's about. ecological collapse and environmental degradation and climate change global warming and all that. But it's also about identity and capitalism in the South.

And about getting it by a car and becoming trans. Exactly. And it's all in there. It's an incredibly rich, rich, very dense show. And it's, you know, a laugh a minute. I'm calling it 30 Rock meets Beckett. And that should suggest that I've never read anything by Beckett. I was just about to say, don't know, but I know it's an author. So I like, yeah. Yeah. It's like a playwright. Tina Faye meets Shakespeare. It literally is.

Tina Fame means Shakespeare. I read. So, like, the play is also kind of, like, deeply inspired by Death of a Salesman, which is truly, like, one of the only plays I've ever read. And there's, like, a lot of allusions of Death of a Salesman in the show. Yeah. Because.

But that was also kind of about, like, capitalist, like, nihilism. Oh, of course. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And identity and about, like, you know, you know, hitching your, your identity to your work. Yeah. And this sort of the tragedy that comes around wanting to be seen, wanted to be liked, wanting to be heard and all that. It's a very modern tale, even though it's like from the past.

But you were, you are a practicing copywriter. Yes, yes. For many years, I've worked in the branding industry. I have worked for all sorts of brands. Hyatt, Hilton. Something I'm quite proud of. Wait, yeah, I want to know, like, I don't know if you could talk about it. I'm, it's high at making you sign like NDAs.

The NDAs, I'm always signing NDAs. Frankly, I've never. I'm never honoring them. I feel like I've never honored an NDA. I have, well, I had to sign one for the Bernie Sanders campaign. And we all know how that went. So since then I don't even think, I don't think anyone's even attempted to smack me with one. They're like, let's just, let's save the cost on the paper and printer ink.

I'm often signing them for like a copywriting job where it's like the sender the NDA before you even work on the project and then you work in the project and you're like, oh my God, we're writing internal messaging for Uber. And then like you work on the project for like three weeks and then they like and then you end up with a copy that's just like, we champion heroes. And it's like not even it's not even a consumer facing line. It's like an internal thing just for their like corporate retreat that they're going on in like two months and then that's it.

And you're like, I'm glad I signed an NDA for this. God. imagine being like an employee of one of these places where it's like not only are you like not only do you have to put up with this like corporate language like in the workspace because I'm sure all of these people are talking to each other like total fucking drones but you get all these emails for management that are just like we appreciate and value blah blah blah and that's why we're giving you free pizza on Friday or whatever yeah well you know it's funny I worked for fidelity for a long time which is a Boston based financial institution um and for a long time I was working on this

this like internal Facebook that they weren't creating. And there was like months where we were just like coming up with the name for it. Like should it be called like Green Line or like the Green Book? Which is like that movie about race. It's called Precious inspired by a novel by Sapphire. Inspired by a novel like Boston. And there was like, I think they ended up calling like the Green Line or something. And like it ended up being kind of just like a monthly email or something.

But it was like they mean they spent like millions of dollars. branding this like internal email. Yeah. And then it was always like, I would be having to come up with like, you know, a template message that like a manager could send like sub managers to get them excited and like encourage people to post on Green Book. And then we'll be like, we're making, we're taking Green Book out into the real world and we're doing like a bowling event.

And if you can't join, you have to come to like Zoom bowling. And it was just, it was all so humiliating. Is this some kind of like management strategy at like keeping employees surveilled? It's, I think surveillance is definitely a huge part of it. Yeah. I think it's like, I think it's part of what you're saying of just like making sure that like they never are able to like speak in their own language. Like, they were just trying to like automatize them until they're just like they're just crazy robots. Like even when they're not talking about like financial derivatives, like even if they ever happen to like slip into discussing like last night's football game or sports event.

Yeah. They're still just going to be like, that was an incredible. sports event, Craig. Make sure to clear your personal items from your hot desk before you leave. Was there a particular, like, a particularly depressing or, like, dystopian pitch you gave that inspired the last madman? Or is it just the overall kind of nihilism of the industry? I think it's the overall nihilism industry. I think it's also me, um, sort of reckoning with my role in ecological collapse and I'm sort of encouraging people to over consume. Because you are a huge green thumb and tree hugger, which I don't think a lot of people, maybe,

maybe a lot of people wouldn't expect that. As am I. I'm a huge tree hugger. I'm a huge returner, you know, and you know how that you is looking, right? I mean, I'm back to the land, mama. I mean, I live in a very naturey kind of environment. I live in an Edwardian tenement built in 1904. Lots of stone.

No air conditioning. Oh, girl, don't get to be started in the no AC. You know how I don't do it at all? I don't use it ever. Good boy. And you know what? I know Europe is going to. like a heat wave where like thousands of old people died.

So it's a random. I'm like looking at an old person on the street like, dying having a heat stroke right now. Like I'm not, I'm not calling the police. I don't know what the 911 here is. You had a good run, love. It's a hard time to be anti-AC because of ecological collapse.

I mean, at some point, it's like we will need like cooling centers or like AC in Europe to like keep people from dying like this. But we got there from being cucked to the AC, you know, it's a vicious cycle. It's like, oh, we need to build all these AC plans. And it's like, at some point, not to sound like that fucking Disney star who, like, said that millions of people need to die during COVID. Who was it?

Selina Gomez or whatever. She's like, I didn't really know, but it doesn't seem that serious. And like, people are going to die. Like, oh, yeah, I feel like it was Selena Gomez. And like, she spilled so much tea that day. She was like, I don't want to stay inside and old people are already old. And they're just going to die. people are going to die

but I'm like Of course it's not all ASE but I'm just like if the solution to like hashtag not all ACs not all ACs It's not all ACs Some ACs are great But I'm just I don't know

It's kind of depressing because you do feel like you're in this vicious cycle of like There's no solution is the poison They can give us the poison So we can take their medicine Literally Anyways, it's a hard time to be anti-AC, but I still am my personal life, hold it down. And you know what? You're a human.

Just acclimate to the fucking climate. And honestly, once you do that, you feel amazing. But I've talked about that on the show ad nauseum. Anyways, ecological collapse inspired the play in part. Ecological collapse and tired of the play. And I will say, I mean, there obviously, like, you know, there's been many brands I worked for that are maybe more dystopic than others. One that is quite inspirational for the play itself.

was a plus-size women's boot company that I worked for. And you're like all the fabric they were using the sea level rise. I mean, girl, you have no idea. Well, because when we first started working on the project, I was so confused because I was like, well, why isn't that just like a boot? Like, why is it different if it's, if she's fat? Like, isn't it like boots get bigger and smaller, I guess? But like, what's the difference?

But for boots are higher. And so it's a wide calf boot is like a different dimensionality, was a word that we used a lot, which I kind of hated. It's so offensive. It's so offensive. Like those calves are in another dimension on these. No, I know. And like, and we really like push that phrase. We're always just like, we offer three different gradations of dimensionality and no other brand is doing that.

Or dimension. Dane dimension. Honey, these boots are taking you to space. No matter your gravitational pole, you can fit into these, honey. But it was really, well, with the insane part about the brand that I thought was so evil was that it was also like a multi-level marketing scheme where it was like you, the business model was that women had to like buy a shit ton of inventory and then like sell all these big ass boots to their friends in tier three cities. So the plus size chicas in your Chicago's and your New York. in your Nashvilles are like getting together and having like you know the modern to come love a Tupperware party and they're selling who's fat as fucking Indianapolis

I know and it's just like we know these fat girls got big friends so it is so me grow on the latest Lizzo album and invite all your besties over and so I wrote all this like really empowering language and I remember once we were at a um like an event for the brand it was some like kind of launch party and one of the like founder women like came over to me and she was was like, when I read your manifesto, I cried because it was so beautiful. What was in the manifesto? I have to ask. It was, it was all about like, you know, how, you know, plus size women can be shut out of the conversation. Not easily.

I'm kidding. I'm sorry. They struggle to, they struggle to fit in. No, no, no. This is why you can't get us to gabbing. Listen, I think I was very sympathetic to the plate of the customer and the demographic. And obviously that came through in my beautiful words. But I just remember thinking, like, wow, like, you know, not that you don't deserve to feel empowered. Everyone deserves to feel empowered. But like, you know, it's just, it's quite sad that it's through this like, you know, through consuming like incredibly cheap products.

Yeah, that are bad for the world. And probably giving you some kind of polyurethane-based cancer as well. It's all. It's bad for your spirit. It's bad for your body. It's bad for society. And honey, all these boots are ending up on a beach in Ghana. And we know it. Right. Right. Right. No, totally. I mean, I would really love to have some kind of like state mandated uniform. Not even in some kind of like LARP being like communist way, but I'm just like, we need to have fewer options for clothes. I already know you hate this so much. But I'm like, it's also, this is also me taking my personal grievance out with my relationship to. to dress on society at large, but I'm like, wouldn't everything, it would solve a lot of problems

with all the fast fashion. If it's like you have five options, it's made and delivered by the state. Yeah, so let's say it could be like Burka. The Mao, the Moussuit. I mean, Kim Jong-un did have some amazing wide-leg pants and cute little cropped suit jackets. Wait, you were referring him in the past times. Did he die? I say Kim Jong-il, not Kim Jong-un. Oh, the dad. The dad. Wait, maybe is Kim Jong-un. Which ever one. The eel is the dad. Un is the son.

Is the like little, the little, the angry little little taller that like the large. I love him. He's so cute. Wait, and his, is it his daughter who's like the fabulous one who's going to inherit the empire? And she's so she's so she. Because he's like so obsessed with her.

But like she's so glad. He seems gay to me. It's like, why are you grooming this like gay icon? Right. Because she's so like thin and like fierce and everyone's like, Slidehouse out of life. Mama. Totally.

Wait, have you heard of Pyong Hatton? Do you have any thoughts on Pyong Hatton? I'm kind of obsessed with it. Pyong Hatton? Because they're building all of these new high-rise buildings in Pyongyang. And it's being called Pyong Hatton. And some of the, some of the, like, you know, Western Spain. Made in Pyong Hatton.

Yeah, starring Kim Jong-Yil's daughter. She's going to be the J-Lo of Pyong Hatton. But it's like some of this, like, because they've undergone, like, massive economic development and are actually like really stabilizing in North Korea. And they're building all this stuff to show where like luxury resorts and stuff, it all looks pretty cool, to be honest with you. And there's like Western news coverage of Pyong Hatten. It's because they have to admit that they're like capable of like building these like large

high-rise buildings. But they're always with a twist where it's like it was ordered by the vicious dictator. Right, right, right. We can't admit that the brutal regime maybe can. can make some gorgeous brutalist architecture. Yes. But it's not brutalist. I feel like it probably looks so cheap.

I guess I'm not, I haven't seen the photo, but I'm not, I've been seen the photo, but I'm It looks, it does look like state made. Very kind of monotone, kind of 80s. No, I mean, this kind of reminds me of some of the architecture in Japan, which is like, so cool. I love some very like civic center government grade 80s architecture. Yeah, it looks sick. I would love to see it.

Some of it's looking a little Vegas though, like really. Really? The victorious fatherland liberation war museum. Like, this does look like the vagus version of the, like, Titanic main deck. But I want to talk, I want to talk more about the play, Stephen. I mean, this is part of your penance for your cooperation in helping plus-size women's wear destroy the earth. I think, you know, I'm not going to go so far as to say that, like, this absolves me of my sins.

Because personally, I don't think I've done anything wrong. I'm also, it's, it's me, I think part of the impetus of me, writing the play is surely, yes, me processing kind of my role in that. But I think we all have a role in ecological, we all have a role in overconsumption. We all have a role in this way in which, you know, the century of the self and which we've become so addicted to creating our identities and all of the different ways in which we have to perform our identities. And so I think like, this is, this is a way of me holding up a mirror to society, but yes, to myself. Like, do I feel guilty that I helped come up with the name for an Israeli Tupperware startup? No, I don't. Now, when I look at that product, do I think anyone who buys that product is like a mark?

Like, and do I think the product is pointless? Absolutely. It's wildly expensive. It's like you have to pay $500 to buy the vacuum seal like base. And then separately you buy the like Tupperware containers that go on the base that like seal it. Hopefully, hopefully those consumers end up somehow strangling themselves with that product. I would love to see that. I can still see like some dog is really putting their head in the vacuum back and just fucking turning it on, please.

They're probably just like electrocuting themselves like or electrocating their rescue dog or whatever. They're like really expensive rescue dog. Whatever the hell they do over there. Okay. So I can't imagine the play is necessarily very prescriptive or preachy though. Because you're talking about all these things that relate, you're in some way boiling down a catastrophe to personal experience, but I can't imagine you're putting that much of a personal responsibility narrative into the play, or are you? Well, I think you'd have to see the play in order to decide. I mean, I think what's good about fiction is it allows you ambiguity. I think, like, I'm used to writing quite kind of polemic, bitchy stuff. I do a lot of, like, cultural criticism and do a lot of, like, essays. Yeah. A lot of non-fiction kind of stuff. You know, the challenge is that you have to, like, have a opinion. to stand by. I have to like say what you actually think. You can't really hide behind. What's

fun about fiction is that you can kind of like couch your real opinions. Right. In the characters and like what's happening. So you don't necessarily know how I really feel and know where I'm really pointing the finger. Right. But I think like hopefully when you see it, you have you look inward and you kind of reevaluate your own relationship to yourself and your role within society and sort of like how you're conceiving. yourself as like a member of. So do you, can we get Stephen's quick green tips to live

an eco-friendly life? What are you doing, Stephen? I guess you took the train. Do you take the train? Did you fly today? I took the train today. I love taking the train. Eco-friendly tips. Do not use condoms? They're so do you know how many baby dolphins think that that's a jellyfish

and choke on it? No. They're literally so bad for the environment. And that's and that's where I'm hold up the mirror to the heterosexual community, which is one of the condom industry's biggest consumer. I have not known a gay guy who's used to condom. And I think I've maybe used a condom like three times in my life. And were you putting on your own cock? Or were you rolling it down the cock of a stranger? No comment. I don't talk about my sex life on this show or ever. Is that a hard and fast rule, Ben? And yeah.

I sat hard and fast. I don't like talking about it because I feel like it invites DPD men to pray on me. And I know that sounds insane. You wish. Oh, what it's happened. You fucking wish. What it's happened, Stephen. The more public information you have out there, you're begging for some absolute baddie you could never bag to come around and exploit you.

Do you think it's split you financially? No, emotionally. What's wrong with getting exploited? I don't like it. That's what life's all about. This is what I'm saying, Ben, you have so many walls up. You need to bring down some of these walls. God, that it's not true.

There you are at the commons with your $350 hot desk, thinking you're in this open plan workspace. But in fact, what your fellow commoners don't know is that you have a thick condom-covered wall surrounding you at your hot desk. No, I'm very honest and open and I'll talk about anything with my friends, but... I totally talk with my friends. I don't know. I don't like it.

From politics to cock. We let every... Oh, okay. I don't even like the word cock. It's so gross to me. What's funny, because over here in Britain, it's like... You're more like Dick. Like, you're drunker.

My bits. Oh. No. No, they called it. They say Todger. Isn't that funny? Oh, my todgers in a twist. That's a sign of arousal.

My novel is all not in. Oh, my God. The novel's niven. Gross. Wait, what are English guys like? Are they hot? I know you're in. You have a beautiful relationship with your husband,

but I have to imagine you're open as hell. No offense. So I have to talk about my sex life. Oh, do you like it? Do you like it, Stephen? Exactly. What have I turned that in? I want to be on an open plane.

I just think as an interviewer, Oprah, I think that you have to give a little to get a little. Okay. What questions do you have about my sex life? We'll go, we'll go tiff or tat on this. We'll go Nobler for Nibbler on this one. What questions do you add? How many partners have you had in the past three months? Two. Three, in the past three months, I was in L.A., so I've actually had five. What? I love that L.A. just don't like.

You know what it's like when you remember one guy and then you remember the one of four. him and then you remember oh i was in a different city and then four more it's a chain memory is a chain that's another thing my play is about the chain of memory remember how many guys you've wow and when you and when and when you say partner does that penetrative oh oh so oral is not you're not including just oral i do include oral but i'm 30 i do it i include oral i'm 31 though is any are you just like getting a blow job and leaving it there i don't well not i'm not saying i'm a side or anything. I'm just saying sometimes there are circumstances where you're at a sauna or something. Well, I don't. I've never been to a gay sauna. It's much more of a thing in Europe, we'll say.

Right. We don't really have in America. Right. But like, I don't know. I guess sometimes I'm a little bit like, oh, like, oops, I came. And then it's over. Really? Wow. Yeah. At 39, I have the tawd of a 14 year old. Well, hey, good for you, sister. Not that I have problems in that. Sometimes you just don't want. I don't know. I don't know. like sometimes like logistically it's a little bit much and you're just like well i also feel like if you're in a long-term relationship it's like again no offense to your beautiful boyfriend who i respect and admire but and that's just has been my personal experience you know when it's like when it's like we've had sex hundreds of times like see i think long-term relationship i'm actually more likely to just get right to the sex and like four plays even at the one because you're just like

we know that this is like kind of the be all end all let's get there right i think the chance challenge in a long-term relationship is to go back to blowjob sometimes and stay at just like your teens in a playground just like running. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where was the first place you had sex? The first location was in my dorm bed at NYU. Oh, not in public. No.

I feel like most times it's like in a park or something. You had, you didn't have sex until you were in college? Ben, listen. So no, you're 30. I'm a loser. You're 30. Things were different in the 80s, I understand. Things were different.

People were terrified to have sex. AIDS was everywhere. You don't know what that was like. I mean, it was like I was pretending to be a top. On my forehead. Yeah. Sex could kill. It was a time of great shame and fear.

Okay. So, no. Yes. I was, I was, I had a difficult high school experience and I went to a small private high school and Boston. Because you're a bitchy gay nerd who loved fashion. listen, you said it, and it's true. I was literally wearing

kimonos and like, I had like crazy bad skin and I was on acutane and I was wearing like concealer and bronzer and I was like going to the tanning salon all the time. It's also so British of you. No, I know. I was like a girl. I was like a fucking cheesy ass girl from like

Newcastle or just like York. Like I was like one of these slags wearing just like six pounds of makeup and like eyebrows so plucked. You couldn't see them. They were gone, honey. I was insane. I was insane. I looked like the saddest, craziest, gay, sweaty, like pizza face hooker. That's so cool, though, Stephen. That's a cool place to go from.

And I had, like, I remember I was purchasing jewelry off of Amazon. This was when Amazon had just started. Like, they just branched out away from books. And I was like, I'm going to buy a tiered wooden necklace. Because I was trying to copy Mary Kate Olson. I thought she was the shit. Right. Okay. Do you have a todger for me?

I do have a todger for you. My question, well, okay. Sorry, this is very personal. That's fine. I don't care. What was, when was your last relationship? How long was and when did it end? Um, I guess it's hard.

This is such an ordinary response, we'd have to like kind of define relationship. Because I've had. Expansive. expansive definition, a situation ship counts. Um, I want dating a couple, kind of, dating a married couple, kind of like off and on, which I have talked about before in the show. They're like so, they're really sweet. I actually really like them.

They live in Des Moines. Of course, two men. There's not a woman involved. Don't freak out everyone. Monkey in the middle. Yeah. But it's kind of nice for me because I'm like, I don't really have to invest emotionally and I'm just like...

Do you have to see them individually or do you only see them together? But there aren't rules. There aren't like hard and past rules. They are... But do you ever... They are Cuban immigrants. So it's not this kind of American thing where it's like we need to have a contract to open a relationship or...

Okay. I see. Yeah. It's kind of just like... They're not annoying about it. They understand that sex is a physical human need. Yeah. And so it's a lot easier because it's not any of this like contractual back and forth.

like you get him on Tuesdays, I get him on Thursdays, and if you see him, without me being there, like, kill yourself. Right, right, right. Kill yourself. What is the point of even trying to have fun if it's all conscribed like this? I hate that idea. So I've been seeing them and they're really chill and I like them, although we have had a few falling outs due to some political disagreements. I will say that much. But we're fine. We're doing fine. If you could have multiple falling outs with someone that you're still fucking, it's funny.

Well, again, it's not, it's not this kind. It is a very American thing to be like, I can't date like a leftist or we need to agree on this or that. It's just, it's very much just like. Obviously, like you're not a bisexual girl in Brooklyn who's like, but even gay guys are like that. They are. Hmm. Less so than bisexual women, of course. They might say that they are like publicly, but like, but they're having sex.

no idea of solace in the broom closet of course of course no fuck anyone you're like anything with a pulse i take it back i think it's really hard not to have sex with israeli guys they're all gay i don't think it's that hard i'll say that much i am sure you've had sex i'm sure you've had sex with i'm sure i haven't i don't have that much sex i'm not like on grinder i don't i'm not like picking up guys like that i'm not going to like basement i'm like literally i'm not saying this as like it's like a facetious like self-branding thing i am like actually kind of a prude and a little bit of an insult. Well, okay, I guess you said it.

You are. I mean, no, I mean, you can't have multiple podcasts and not be an insult. Right. Right. I'm a hardworking, industrious person who maybe works that hard to, like, avoid these certain, you know, the in and himself stands for industrial. Industrious. Yes.

Yes. No, I mean, I'm back in New York, so I'll probably get around. But I will see. Speaking of gay guys, though, I wanted to talk with you about this because you are a fellow veteran of the culture wars, specifically on Twitter. A fellow traveler. One thing that I, that has been happening, like, literally for as long as I've been on Twitter,

as long as you've been on Twitter, the very specific post and kind of cultural affect of roasting the gay guy group pick that has undergone many changes and many different cycles, but at its core there's something that seems to be everlasting and ever, ever, you know, meaningful to gay guys on Twitter. It started, for me, I think the first wave of this was roasting lobster-bodied white gay guy friend groups. And you say lobster-bodied, you mean that they're sunburnt on vacation? I mean big fucking, they only work out the arms. Oh, they're just like steroids and scary. It's G-royded-out g-gays.

Yeah. But it's now I've seen it get a little bit more like, now it's just, I saw one where it's like literally like perfect racial demographic spread of gay men, but they were all muscle queens. And that pick got roasted by everyone. Because they're not fat. Because no one was fat. Maybe no one was disabled.

They didn't have a doll. There was no wide calf boots. I don't know. I'm not really sure. Boots were too narrow. But what do you think about this phenomenon? I think that. I mean, the two things.

So, you know, I have not, I don't really go on Twitter anymore. I'm kind of retired from my Twitter career. I, I've been throwing out some like self-promotional tweets this past couple weeks just looking at Twitter. But, you know, my heart's on it. It's miserable. It's sad there. And my thought was every time that I've kind of checked in on Twitter, I don't say my mental health is vastly improved. Have you not been on there anymore?

At the same time, I'm grateful to it. I'm grateful to as a, as an agora of ideas, as a marketplace of ideas. gay shit-talking psychopaths. It helped with our respective careers. We both built huge audiences on Twitter, and we have to thank Twitter for doing that for us. But I do feel like at this point, the people who are left on Twitter are kind of the worst of the worst. It's sort of self-selected. And I don't just mean, oh, it's all like right-wingerers.

I mean, like, people on, if you're still using, because there's a lot of just like that kind of like sad, bitter, angry. It's embittered people top to model. Yeah. And it's just bitter. And it doesn't really matter where you are on the political spectrum that I'm putting in quotes there. Like, it's just bitterness. That is the great. That just needs to be the overarching feeling.

Yeah. And so there's no joy there anymore. So I think it's self, self-selecting for that. So when you get when the discourse happens on a photo, it's always going to be angry. I was the subject of, you know, vicious. I was laughing. So I'm so sorry, Stephen. A couple months ago.

I love seeing you get yelled at in the public square. Oh, it was amazing. It was wonderful. It's hilarious. Because I know you don't take it personally and you're. just like, oh, this is great.

Well, you know, I, listen, I was, so I was deemed a member of the hot literati by ID magazine,

which obviously that's funny. You should make fun of anyone who has been deemed. But I also feel like it's something that these, like, magazines or whatever, they're putting that headline on there because they know if they position this as like,

yes. So why, you know, people will take the same way. And this was, well, because it was perfectly designed for the discourse because there was so many different,

um, things you could disagree with in this, because the headline was on it was meet the hot literati reshaping criticism so you could say like you're not doing criticism they're not reaching criticism they're not doing criticism they're not not not shaping them they're not hot they're not literally like all all of those things you can take issue with so it was great engagement bait yeah but there was this like picture of my face on there and so all these people were like sharing it so there's a lot of just like this kind of classic like you know physiognomy like racist Twitter racism where everyone's just like pointing me and just being

like Jew, Jew, Jew, and like, that was their critique of my ethnicity. Which is actually a good point for, I mean, that is literati. You know, like they are Jewish. No, I know, I know. It's kind of just like, well, if I, if I were Jewish, I certainly think I'd belong in New York literati. So great point there. But I'm not even Jewish.

But then, yeah, and then people were just being like, oh, like sewer rat, disgusting. I saw that one. Honestly, the saddest part for me was people defending me. someone said, hey, Stephen Phillips horse is like 43. And he had a podcast for IHeart before it was canceled. And I was like, wait, what? How is this defending me? You're up being my age by five years.

You're also just saying that I had that I was fired from Iheart. What does that have to do with anything? That's not helpful at all. No, I would never defend you publicly, Stephen, because I respect you. I respect you and no, it's not going to hurt you. Being defended is actually kind of like so sad because it's a fence that like that I'm so weakly. So weak. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. But I'm like hurt personally. Because here's the thing. It's like, I know what I look like. And if you say and if if someone said, oh my God, this guy looks like he was born a month premature, I'd be like, well done. I do look like that. Well, I get I get called trans mask all the time. Do I like that?

Do I like that? No. Is it true? And if I said a. lifetime full of vitriolic shit towards other people. Yes. So you know what? I'll take it because I deserve it. And also and if someone said that you look trans femme for example, you would be like, oh, well, I know that's not really true. So I'm not like offended by that. Right, right, right. It's like whether it's true or not, I think if you know yourself, then it's kind of impossible to be like offended by other people. Well, and at the end of the day, you're talking about me. You're talking about me. Yeah. Exactly. As, as, as, as, as, as,

RuPaul once said, I don't care what you call me as long as you call me. Literally. But to get back to the gay, you know, why people hate hot gay guys, I think in that, well, I think everything comes back to jealousy. Like, I think people were upset about that photo of the hot literati reshaping criticism because they felt that they were like, it somehow in that, like, distinction that was made, they were not included in that. Do you think any of those people would have jumped at the opportunity to have been pictured

in that photograph with the exact same help? Maybe not exactly in the photograph, but on some level to have been judged or termed, like, as someone who is reshaping criticism, as someone who is hot, as someone who, yeah, someone who's relevant. Any of those different, like, things that I was saying than I was, like, people want to be called that. And so I think, like, that's what the jealousy coming in. And so I think, like, any picture of a group of hot gay guys, there is just a really, like, deep, deep medieval, not even medieval, ancient, ancient biological. jealousy that is coming to the surface there. Sure. Where you're just like, how dare you flunt in your face the fact that you guys are hot?

Yeah. And you haven't selected me to be a part of your coterie. Right. And I'm like, it's actually one of the easiest groups to be invited to. You do just unfortunately have to like work out and do G and like spend thousands of dollars on clothes. But it's not like this is actually that exclusive necessarily. You know what I mean? Yeah.

You just have to work toward a little bit. So democratic. And you know, the great thing about G is that if you do G, G, you actually don't need to eat or work out. Or think, or think. You can just stay awake for 72 hours and then by the end you have abs. But my whole thing with it is just like, I'm like, how do you think this would actually go if you as a non-binary bear

were invited to this event? A non-bear-nary. A non-bear-nary. I, as someone who is not one of these people who would never be in those circles, I'm like, I'm, I feel a wing, relief when I see that these muscle queens are self containing themselves on various islands in basements and I'm like good over there be like have fun pissing on each other in a basement like I'm happy that they have their own community and I'm happy that they are not commingling you know so here's what's scary to you six G gay is posting a selfie from inside the

commons and saying another day at the office and they're all having your sandwich The way I would block myself in one of the booths and pretend they're not there. And I think maybe that's what is that I'm intimidated by them because they are like so, they have made almost too much peace with their sexuality. Okay, but I think, but that's all projection, babe. Like, no one is at peace. No one who is posting a photo of themselves is at peace. Every selfie is a cry for help.

Every single selfie is like two clicks away from. suicide. So like it we it's just there's so much anxiety and uh yes and putting your image out there to be accepted by the world. Showing the world how you see yourself is such a vulnerable thing to do and you do it every time you take a selfie, which I've tried to stop doing because I'm like oh god, I feel like I'm like catfishing every time I post a picture. Oh no, Ben. You're even more handsome in person. You're even more transmask in person. But it is a fundamentally embarrassing thing, you know. And it's not like these G-gays are demanding to be invited to the picnic slash knitting

workshop for mutual aid, like non-bairn mutual aid project. Do you want them there? Like I don't, I just don't understand. I mean, I'm sure they're posting flyers too. Well, they kind of have to because the trans girls are running it and they can't, you know what I mean? These are the delta males of the. wider kind of Berlin, New York City.

Berlin to Bushwick to Zipollete industry. They are the . They're doing the grunts. They're doing the G. They're showing up. They're paying the dolls. They're raising the money. They're posing the line.

And they're tolling the line. They're absolutely. They're 100% doing a lot. I do think that that's like fine. I don't find, I don't take any issue with that. Yeah, you're a Delta male. You're doing what your particular community is asking of you. Most people, I think, are deltas.

I think it's very difficult to, like, step outside what is kind of prescribed for you, what is laid in front of you. And what's easiest and what's most fun and what's most attractive, you know? It's like, why would you? I totally get it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of a delta. You are, if you're a delta, then you are the conductor of a train of deltas.

Hell, yeah. You are. Chee-choo. You are such a leader. Thought leader. you are such a leader who gets to sit down for their job it's so humiliating i really it's so humiliating people are like that reporter that stephen is also my media trainer everyone the reporter was like asked me what i thought about doing a remote show and i was like honestly

i'm like it's like the cheapest way to do a show like this and i wanted to be like it is a little humiliating because it just like it's so covid which implying like why don't you have such a like cheesy podcast studio with so many like neon signs that say on air and like little cactuses. And I'm like well part of it is because it does supply some kind of like scrappy ethos and it like implies that there's

something that isn't like highly produced and sure you know kind of astroft about it but it is also like I do hate doing remote stuff. But I've gotten so accustomed to it and I think you probably have to do that like I mean I think well I think for the particular format of certainly for

into your emotives, I think it's easier to be remote because it's like you're all looking at an image. Yeah, and you can book people and stuff easily. Yeah. I feel like it's weirder to be, because like the, like the aesthetic of the show is like computer screen. It is computer screen images at people's houses. So if it's like if you're in person and you're all looking at one big image like on a TV or something, they're going to be weird. Yeah, right. But I think this, I think seeking derangements would lend itself more easily to like the classic. Any like hang out. Horrible podcast is better. Hangout podcast. I hate the term with Ben Morrow. Oh, God. Anyways, your show is showing at fringe. My show is showing at fringe.

I'm also doing a work in progress in London, where I am now. In two weeks, July 21st and July 22nd, there are a few tickets left. So if you would like to snap those up and come see the show before anyone else does. So seekers in London, go get those tickets for the work in progress. Or come up to Friends. Yeah, because honestly, the French Festival, it's an amazing time. Edinburgh, it's a beautiful city. So I'll be doing it all month, the entire month of August, because I'm doing the show.

There's lots of other incredible comedians you know and love. And some you've never heard of coming to Edinburgh. You can see. People buy a ticket to the festival or do they buy a ticket to your show? You buy for individual shows. But it's very cheap. Like a show is like 10 pounds. So it's like, you can count around all day.

You bounce around. And my show's at 12.50 in the afternoon. Like it's like. I call it. Yeah. go see it, like, and then get a pint afterwards. First beer of the day show, I was just about to say. It's very like Rosie O'Donnell's doing a show at 11 a.m. kind of vibes.

But then, like, there is, like, famous people doing, like, you know, more headlining shows at night, but that's kind of more stand-upy. You can go see a burlesque version of Shrek called Swamp-Lesk. That does really well every year. Listen, like I said, there's a lot of crap. I'm getting blown out of the fucking water by Shrek Lacks. Yeah, literally. No, and they're selling, you know, like a 300-seat.

What is up with that? That is so depressing to be. Yeah. I mean, people are incredibly dumb. I mean, most people go to Edinburgh to go on a Harry Potter tour. And, like, they go and they get... I didn't know it was at Disneyland. I thought it was more, like, indie.

No. Glasgow is, like, a more, like, scrunky art school kind of badass city. And it's... Scronky. It's really scrunky, and it's, like, bigger. Edinburgh's, like, richer and smaller. And it's more, like, tourists here to see castles and, like, buy wands. And, like, they're literally just like...

I mean, my wand. God. I know. Kill us all. We'll go avoid those people by going to the only good play at French vests, it seems. If you see every way, if you come in carrying a wand, you will be ejected. No one. Hide your wand. You're putting a black sticker over the wand so they can't pass a spell. Yeah.

All right, everyone. And this is a free episode. If you want to hear more seeking derangement, subscribe to the Patreon. And go listen to Celebrity Book Club with Stephen and Lily, one of the only other good podcast on the market. Anything else, Stephen? I couldn't agree more. No, I think we've done like a really good amount of promo from my play. I'm like, I love sort of keeping it laser focused on that.

That was great. Are you chastising me? No. I'm impressed with how professional and on topic we kept it. All right, everyone. We'll talk to you next week. Bye-bye. Love you guys.

Bye. Thank you, Stephen.