Sense of Soul - A Spiritual Pathway to Recovery from Addiction

Episode Date: March 22, 2021

Mande and Shanna had a great conversation with Dr. Linville Meadows is an Honors graduate of the University of North Carolina School of Medicine and studied at Duke University. He later held faculty positions at both institutions. He was recognized internationally for his work in cancer research, receiving both grants and awards. He authored numerous scientific articles. He was designated as a Clinical Investigator of the National Cancer Institute.  Dr. Meadows's recovery from addiction to drugs and alcohol began on May 7, 1997. Since then, he has counseled a large number of addicts and alcoholics striving to get clean and sober. His personal experiences, and his observations of other addicts and alcoholics seeking recovery, laid the groundwork for his bestselling book on recovery, 'A Spiritual Pathway to Recovery from Addiction: A Physician's Journey of Discovery'. Dr. Meadows concepts have been featured by Psychology Today, Psychiatry Times, and TheFix.com. In this #1 Amazon bestseller, readers will discover how to overcome addiction through the use of spiritual principles, like honesty, compassion, and faith; a simple and successful treatment that works for impaired physicians and can be used by anyone. Readers will benefit from having information that may greatly increase their chances of successful recovery from addiction. It is a step-by-step guide to understanding the disease of addiction and how to treat it effectively, presented in a way that is both highly informative and wildly entertaining.   IF YOU ARE STRUGGLING WITH AN ADDICTION GET SUPPORT, it’s never to late! www.aa.org www.spiritualpathwaytorecovery.com https://www.thefix.com/living-sober/categories/linville-m-meadows https://www.theanswerisrecovery.com instagram.com/linville_meadows If you want to help support this podcast go to www.mysenseofsoul.com and don’t forget to rate, review and Follow and subscribe so you don’t miss an episode!  

Welcome to the Sense of Soul podcast. We are your hosts, Shanna and Mandy. Grab your coffee, open your mind, heart, and soul. It's time to awaken. Today we have with us Dr. Linville Meadows. Linville has been in recovery since 1997. Congratulations. Since then, he has counseled a large number of addicts and alcoholics striving to get clean and sober. His observations and study over the last 20 plus years formed the basis for a spiritual pathway to recovery from addiction. Dr. Meadows is an honors graduate of the University of North Carolina School of Medicine, and he also studied at Duke University, where he later had positions at both institutions. He was recognized internationally for his work in cancer research, receiving both grants and awards.

He authored numerous scientific articles, and he was designated as clinical investigator of the National Cancer Institute. He joins us today to talk about his new book, A Spiritual Pathway to Recovery from Addiction. Thank you so much for being with us, Linville. Lin. People only call me Linville when they're mad at me. Linville! Oh no! Well, we they're mad at me. Lynnville! Oh no! Well, we're not mad at you. We're good. Yeah.

So tell us, Lynn, what's your story? Yeah. I'm a retired physician, oncologist, and I've been clean and sober from addiction to drugs and alcohol since 1997. In order to do that, you really have to rearrange your whole way of looking at life. It's not really difficult, but you really have to want to do it. Most people won't go to the effort to figure out who they are and who they want to be and do what's necessary to make it happen. When I was young, I wanted to be a writer, but I couldn't think of anything to write about. And I ended up after a long time going to medical school and then was on the faculty at UNC School of Medicine and then later at Duke in the field

of cancer medicine, did a lot of cancer research. And after I got out of recovery, it was really funny. One of the things that I learned in rehab was I began to learn how to pray, which is kind of interesting because it wasn't something that I had routinely done in the field of medicine. Medicine was your higher power. You gave everything to her. You sacrificed your family, your hobbies. You know, you did what she said and moved where she told you to go. My top three priorities were my job, my job, my job. Family was on there someplace. And I don't think God was, he didn't make the cut most years. When I went to rehab, I knew I wasn't going to go back into medicine because the way I

practiced medicine basically fed into my addiction. Arrogance is at the top of the list, and doctors are really good at that. Black and white thinking is another characteristic of being an addict. Refusing to accept opinions of others got to be a fixed habit. And the thing that most surprised me about myself was the fact that I got to where I was making a lot of money, which was actually embarrassing. I discovered one of my character defects I'd never had before, which is greed. And I knew without a doubt that if I went back into medicine in one form or another, I'd spend most of my time trying to figure out how to make more money. I didn't really need to do that. And one night I had a little prayer just before bedtime. And I said,

what am I supposed to do? And sometimes when I do that, I get an answer, but it's usually the next morning. And there'll be one or two words just sitting on my tummy. And the words I saw were, tell our story. And that that was what I was supposed to be doing. That story being the story of the addict and the alcoholic and how they got that way, what they needed to do to get sober. I'm bipolar. And one of the things that happened on the cocaine and the drugs and the alcohol that I was taking is it really fed that flame. And where it had never really been a problem before now, it was completely full blown. And I spent the first 10 years out of rehab being snowed on antipsychotics. And

it took me, literally, it took a decade out of my life where I spent almost all day on the couch. And finally, about 10 years ago, I found a psychiatrist that actually sort of knew what he was doing and changed my medicines. And in fact, right now, my thinking and almost everything about me is doing the best it's ever done. Clear thinking that even, except probably in medical school, I was very, very focused. 10 years ago, I started writing a book and it was called Tell Our Story. And it was really terrible. And over the last few years, well, it was, it was awful. It was like a stream of consciousness kind of thing, which doesn't work if you're trying to help somebody out. About five years ago,

I began working on it in earnest and I began sending it out to agents and I couldn't get anybody to buy it. So I just put it aside. And a friend of mine who was in rehab when he's the crazy chiropractor from South Florida, we were having a conversation and he is a life coach and he looked me in the eye or talked to me in the ear and said, if you're not gonna do it now, when are you gonna do it? And I thought, you're right. So last March, I took it out

and I completely reorganized it, re-edited it, got it into the best shape I could put it in. I have one website that I built called The Answer is Recovery. But what we used to say was, what's the problem? The problem is addiction and what's the answer? re-edited it, got it into the best shape I could put it in. I have one website that I built called The Answer is Recovery. But what we used to say was, what's the problem? The problem is addiction, and what's the answer? The answer is recovery. It was like a catechism we would tease each other with. That one is devoted entirely to understanding the disease of addiction and how to treat it, how to avoid relapse. I worked on it. I've designed the cover, designed the typography,

and basically everything about it. And I self-published it through IngramSpark in September. I've got a site that's about the book and about me and about the idea of finding recovery through using spiritual principles. I have a blog site, which I actually kind of like. And I was at an AA meeting with my friend Robert, and we would talk about why we actually went after many years, why we kept going to AA meetings. And he said, I go to carry the message. And the message is that we're supposed to be available to people to pay back the debt for the people that have helped us. We reach out to somebody else who is reaching out for help, and our hand is there to help them when they reach out. And I ask him, what's the message? And he, you know, cause it's not don't drink because that doesn't do anything. The disease of addiction affects your mind and your body and your soul. You stop drinking,

your mind, your body gets better unless you've gotten cirrhosis or hepatitis B or something. And your mind may never go back to normal, but it starts clearing as the drugs begin to clear. And the soul is the spirit, or I don't know what it is. You can define it however you want. Some people would call it the Christ within, the Buddha within, the Godhead. I don't know what it is. I looked in the big book and something just sort of struck me and said, we came to understand that living by spiritual principles would solve all of our problems,

including our addiction. That's the message to carry right now. What are spiritual principles? This must be some kind of pie in the sky, angels with harps and cherubs with rosy cheeks and chariots of gold drawn by white horses. No, what I need is something useful and practical that helps me figure out what to do today, how to make decisions and how to live a better life. Spiritual principles like honesty, kindness, compassion, stuff like that. So that's the message. That's what I'm devoted to, is to try to carry that

message, spread the word to those who are ready to listen. When I was in the depth of my addiction, my nurses figured out what was wrong, and they called the state medical board who sent somebody from a group called the PRN, the Physicians Recovery Network. And I knew, I just knew that what was going to happen was the next morning when I came in, the medical police would be there and they'd take me away with handcuffs and everything I'd worked for all of my adult life was absolutely going down the drain. That wasn't what happened though. Some guy showed up and I remember his face and I remember his name and his name was Paul. He was from the PRN. And they're a group that's job is to try to recover impaired physicians and put them back on a track where they can return to relatively normal careers and so that all of their work that they put in to get there won't be wasted and thrown away. They're pretty successful, actually. So Paul was from the PRN. He was sitting there and he had this really shitty grin on his face. And he tried to give me a hug. I thought,

what's the matter with this guy? Give me a hug. What's with you? And then he said, do you have a problem? And in a moment of clarity, I simply said, yes. He said, do you want to do something about it? Well, the funny thing is, is that in medical school in the late 70s and early 80s, they taught you nothing about the disease of addiction. They taught you about cirrhosis and other alcoholic problems like cardiomyopathy and thrombocyte pain, all that kind of stuff. They didn't teach you anything about how you got it or how to treat it. So I had no idea what he was talking about, but I said, yes. Can I go home and get a pack of suitcases? He says, no, get in the car. And the next thing I knew, the great big iron metal doors clank shut behind me and locked at the detox center. That's sort of where I'm coming from. Not that I'm selling a book, but that I have a book to sell. Not that I want you to love my blog, but I have a blog that

explains things. Not that I expect to set the world on fire or, you know, but that I can spread the message to as many people as I can. But I did a podcast, the guy who goes by the name of Truthseeker, and we did the podcast, and then you could put comments because it's live on YouTube, and a comment came in, thank you. I and my daughter are homeless. We are trying to take care of ourselves out here. I find myself just drinking all the time. Part of the message is that prayer actually works. And there is a prayer that I was given that over, I've probably done it thousands of times and it's never failed me. I don't know anything else in my life that has absolutely never failed me. That's really simple. God, I thank you for taking away my fear and replacing it with the faith that no matter what happens,

everything will be all right. And she tried that and she says, it works, it works, it works. I'm very intrigued with what you've shared so far. So I'm in recovery. I just celebrated 10 years. I too went down to the pit of darkness. I didn't even want to survive. I didn't want to live. AA saved my life

on top of a 30 day program, which as we know, rehab is where you get the education and the knowledge, but the recovery starts in the rooms for me, at least. I've had a lot of people that I've referred to the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous that jetted out the door the second they heard the word spirituality. And when we did the Lord's prayer, because these people are thinking, holy shit, what kind of religious cults did I just walk into? And when they read that part of the big book that you talked about, it is not explained what those spiritual principles are. And your mind is already fogged up because you're just newly sober. And you're like, what the hell are they talking about? Now, of course there's

sponsors there to guide you, but I love the idea of your book because that is truly the message. And Shanna and I are huge fans of young, and he was a big part in the big book. And we didn't even know that. I didn't know that until Shanna told me. And that's exactly what he said to Bill and Bob. He said, I can't help you. I can't help you unless you find some spirituality. I mean, there you go. Exactly what you just said.

That is the message. But people get confused on what those spiritual principles mean. If you go back to the idea of being in that pit you were talking about, that's the blackness of that pit is indescribable. There are two reasons that somebody comes to a physician, either they're afraid or they're in pain. And it's really the same reasons why somebody goes through the doors to get to AA or rehab or something. They're either in pain or they're frightened to death. And it takes reaching a point, either quit or die. You know, I was living in this wonderfully huge fancy house, driving a brand new car with lots of money in the bank. And I knew for absolute

certain that I was going to die chasing the dope man down a dark alley. And you know, I didn't care. You know, I accepted that completely. Some days I wanted to quit, but see, I couldn't do it by myself. There was no way I tried everything I could think of and nothing worked. That quit or die, I think that's what most people would call the bottom. In the big book, I'd have called it a turning point, but it's either quit or die. And if it hadn't been for Paul intervening on me, I probably would be dead. At a point of quit or die, you have to be willing to make a commitment to change your life. And the commitment has to be as strong as the need to get high. I can remember one night I went for some cocaine

and I needed 1,500 bucks. So I had to go to three different ATMs in three different counties to get $500 each. I had to drive to another county to hook up with the dope guy. And he and I drove to another county to meet the guy that actually had the big chunks of cocaine to sell. And I got home at 4.30 in the morning having left at 5. Well, that's how badly I was, how much I was willing to do to get high. And I have to be willing to put that same amount of energy and effort into changing my life. Fortunately, you don't have to do it all at once. I had a lot of pain, but I was mostly frightened to death because one night I was really

coked and drunk and stoned and everything else. And this monster, and he grew and grew until he was about nine feet tall. He went after my wife and he picked her up and he threw her to the ground and he smashed her and he took his wedding ring off and threw it in her face and he cursed at her. In the meantime, I'm over in the corner, the smallest fetal ball that I can just to get away from him. And I knew that if he turned to me, he would kill me. If not now, this time, another time. And he turned to me and he was smirking. And that's the most frightened I've ever been in my life. Right? Now, some people will say, oh, there's no monster inside of me. I

couldn't possibly do that. But in recovery, they say that's a yet. Because there is within each of us, this terrible monster that will kill. This young man who was about half blind that I met detox told me, he says, Lynn, you don't understand how bad this disease is. It is so bad that you will give your old lady to the dope man for a bag of dope, and you will kill him for half a bag. And all the people that I know that are real hardcore AA types will tell me that, yes, there was that point where I was willing to kill and I wouldn't have thought twice about it. And there are those who have not seen that, don't know what's actually inside ourselves.

One of the quotes that I've run across about addiction is something that Dylan Thomas said. Of course, he was the Welsh poet and he was also one of the worst drunks that ever picked up a pen and wrote poetry. And he said that within me, there is a beast, an angel, and a madman. So he recognized that. The beast is what we were talking about. This thing buried inside that will come out and kill you. The madman is the insanity of the addiction, which comes from several places. First of all, you get high and then you come down.

But when you get high and come down, you always come down a little lower than where you started. And over time, pretty much everyone reaches a state of clinical depression. Everyone walks through the door of AA or a detox is clinically depressed. Now they don't treat that because it's entirely likely that by the time you get into some kind of recovery, that will have passed. Obviously, there's the toxicity that from the drugs themselves get into some kind of recovery, that will have passed. Obviously, there's the toxicity that from the drugs themselves, every get high you can think of is a neurotoxin, and it damages the brain. And that takes a lot longer to heal, but it will heal with time. Fortunately, there is an angel in there. And that angel is our saving grace,

because there are many characteristics of an addict or an alcoholic. And one of them is we have some kind of overactive degree of spirituality. Well, my first sponsor actually was in the seminary until he got kicked out for playing his piano at jazz bars and getting drunk every night. Any number of people, maybe Mandy, you know about this, have thought about joining the church or becoming a missionary or something like that. There is this deep spirituality there. That's what saves us because all we have to do is figure out a way to tap into that and our whole lives change. So once you can make the commitment, then it's easy. You can pound somebody in the head. Two Sikhs told me he knew a guy who'd gone to 37 rehabs and it never took. Well, it never took because he wasn't ready.

You know, you have to be ready. I can't tell you that you're an alcoholic. The judge can tell you you're an addict. Your wife can tell you that she's going to leave if you don't quit drinking. But until I realize it, I won't do anything positive. You know, Shanna said something to me recently. She said, I think spirituality and awakening is self-love. And I thought about that. Now you're talking about these spiritual principles. You listed off things like

honesty, just being a good person. What do you feel about her comment? Because I feel like the two of those really align. I think that's absolutely true. I would add some depth to that and finding a higher power. And my best definition for, I don't know what spirituality is, but my best definition for spirituality is how I relate to the universe and then how I behave in this world based in that relationship. And when they said, they said, you have to find a higher power. And I came from a real strong Southern Baptist tradition. And as soon as I was able, I shook those ideas off.

And when I started working on what is your higher power, two words popped in my head. And they're not words that I routinely had any knowledge or use on. In fact, I'd only heard them once before in my life. The words were unconditional love. And I thought, well, that's an interesting idea. If the universe is based on unconditional love, a lot of whole neat things come out. Now, I'm not talking about flowers and candy and all that kind of stuff, about the way that you love your kids or you love your mom. I'm talking about what's been called agape love, which means that I wish you and yours all the best that life has to offer, and I want nothing

in return, and I want you to have that even if I never see you again. So if the universe is based on love, then a lot of stuff kind of comes out of that. First of all, it's beyond my comprehension. In the opening lines of the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tse says that which is called the Tao is not the Tao, because simply putting a name on this whatever it is lowers it to my way of looking at the world and my wife ann is fond of saying i'm nothing more than an earthworm who under the ground thinks that everything that he senses is the whole universe beyond naming it's beyond understanding but c being a human being i have to do it anyway i can't help what characteristics would this underlying field of love have and obviously it would be energy,

intelligence beyond my wildest imaginings. The universe is so unbelievable. You study biochemistry, even just a muscle cell. It's so complicated and so fascinating. So unconditional love then would include stuff like compassion, kindness, honesty. It reigns upon the good and the evil alike. It doesn't care. It loves everybody and everything. It is perfect good. And just as an elephant doesn't give birth to frogs, and frogs don't give rise to unicorns, goodness can only replicate itself. And so the universe itself has to be good. Now, why don't I see that? Well, the answer to that is it's wrapped up in the belief in dualities. As John Paul Starter said, hell can be defined as a belief in dualities, up and down, good and bad. Take a prism and you shine light to it and you get all the different colors of the rainbow. Well, if I took the spiritual love and shined it to a spiritual prism, I would get honesty, kindness, compassion, every virtue you can think

of. This field encompasses everything. Nothing can have an existence outside of this field, whatever it is. So what I think is that this comes into me and then out into the world. Love is just like a cycle, like electricity. There's no limit to the amount of love that I can receive. There's no limit to the amount of love that I can hold. There is no limit to the amount of love that I can receive. There's no limit to the amount of love that I can hold. There is no limit to the amount of love I can put out into the universe. Well, if there's no limit to the amount of love that I can hold, then I am contiguous with all of existence. And my little ego becomes a little tedious, tedious bump. And that love comes through me. And the ego is the enemy of this love. Addicts and alcoholics have hearts that are far too tender.

The pain of the world, the hypocrisy of the world really just doesn't sit. We can't stand that. And then as we start to drink and use, we bomb out that consciousness. And then the drinking and using takes over. Because for some reason, we have some hereditary feature about us that makes it makes us far more likely than anybody we are 10 times more likely than anybody else if 10 people go to drinking heavy as a young person only one of us won't be able to stop and that's me and my my buddy's an addiction i think that this love comes through us the ego blocks it

because of our oversensitivity, we shut the heart down. Yeah. Right? I can remember my brother died of leukemia when I was 15. It was like somebody was ripping my heart. Almost a year later, my father died of a heart attack. And I thought, well, I've done this funeral stuff before. I know all about it.

I didn't feel anything. I was completely numb. When you shut down the heart, the heart and the ego being in balance, when you shut down the heart, the heart and the ego being in balance, when you shut down the heart, the ego takes off. Unfortunately, the ego is driven by fear. Fear and that ego block the flow of this light through me, removes the ego, let the light shine through. When we're in the pit, when we're in the blackness of the pit, we have turned completely around and completely away from the light. And you hear people talk about the sin for which there is no forgiveness. That's the sin for which there is no forgiveness. They say it's blasphemy against

the Holy Ghost. What the hell do you blaspheme against the Holy Ghost? Completely away from the light, completely and absolutely away in total darkness, and the light can't get to you. The spirit is completely blocked out. That's why there's no forgiveness until somehow help somebody else begin to turn toward the light. And once that happens, once the light begins to float, then I can work on all the things that I have to work with. Do you see now that it was that ego that was smirking at you when you were able to see that other man, which is a very pivotal point for somebody when they're able to see that, yes, I am not that person. He is outside of me. And it is not my soul because I think that's huge to be

able to see yourself as a multidimensional being in this, on this earth, on this plane and this 3d body, that man that was smirking at you, you knew was not you. You didn't come into this earth with that man. The body will never be perfect. It's made out of clay. The brain rather is made out of clay as well. So it's never going to be perfect in any sense. The spirit that flows through me is in fact perfectly good, just as I am a child of God. And when they told me that, I suddenly realized that it was true. And if I'm a child of God, then I am a good person with a bad disease, and I can treat the disease. If I were inherently a bad person, there would be no hope. I remember coming in, and there were these other doctors in the apartment, and they were happy, and they would

laugh and joke and cut in the floor. And I thought, these guys are at the very depth and nadir of their medical careers. And yet they seem to be enjoying life. And I thought, I want that. I want that so bad I could scream. I went to a meeting and I heard some guy get up and tell a story. And when he told his story, what happened was that it was like he was telling my story. As if I had written down all the words and on a piece of paper and had him read them out loud how did you know that about me yeah how did you know it

so I knew then that I could trust this guy because I wasn't determined anymore this guy knew what I had been through and I could trust what he had to say and then what follows after that was the idea that I had hope again. I have hope. I can in fact change and I can get what these guys have. Those were the first two things that really got me going. Hope, the idea that I'm a child of God. When hope and trust return, I got a shot at making it work. That's awesome. Another thing I'd like to point out from my point of view is that I am not an alcoholic or an addict. However, I've always been surrounded by them and love them. But I had to learn through Al-Anon and through a lot of work and reading and researching and being persistent in my journey.

I was thinking about some of the loved ones in my life and the times that I saw the grinning man that you spoke of and knowing now that that is separate from the person who his soul and who I love. I wanted to ask you about not just love, but the physical, the physical aspects of love and what it does to our body. You being a physician, I have recently just been amazed witnessing people who are depressed, having these many experiences with unconditional love from either a child or family. And all of a sudden, their entire chemistry changing, and it was healing. And what that does to the body when you're able to experience the love inside. Of course. My wife is fond of saying that you are what you eat, that what you put into your body comes out. It's like my garbage can. Whatever I put into it, it's going to come out. And the same

is true for my thinking and my feeling, right? If I fill my mind with negativity of any form, depression, fear, bigotry, any of the negativities, then negativity is all that's going to come out. We have an organic garden out behind the house, and I don't go out there and plant weeds. I go out there and remove the weeds. So there's nothing left but goodness to come out. Cast your bread on the waters, and it will come back to you after many days. If I put negative thoughts out into the universe, that's all that's going to

come back to me. If I put positive thoughts out into the universe, then that will come back to me. In many ways, I think that's the secret to prayer, is that the thoughts that I hold and the thoughts that I send out come back to me. And that is a physical law, just like gravity or anything else. When I get better at how to do that, whatever I put out there will, in fact, come back to me. My mother was afraid of tuberculosis, leukemia, and heart attacks. And Billy had leukemia, and dad had a heart attack, so somehow he missed the TV. My son would go into a parking lot when he was a younger man. He would start cursing as soon as he got in there. One of the things that you mentioned about physicality, one of the first things I had to realize that I am not my body is the vehicle.

The sole function of the body is to carry the brain around in the world. Every system in the body, from the GI to the lung, everything is designed to move the muscles and the bones and the joints of the world. That's so that the brain can collect all sorts of useful information, experiences, and everything else to feed back to that ultimate reality that I think I am, and I call it the I am. After I realized that I am not my body, I had to realize that I am not this. Thoughts are just that. They're little things that pop up on the view screen of my mind,

and I get to determine what I want to do with it. I can hold on to them, being obsessive-compulsive. I can really hold on to it and begin obsessing on something until it's in my mind. And I get to determine what I want to do. I can hold on to them being obsessive compulsive. I can really hold on it and begin obsessing on something until it's in my hand. You know, boy, I sure would like to do some coke. Boy, I sure would like to do some coke. There it is. I get to decide what to do with it. I can throw it away or I can keep it. And that's, I think, is what free will is. I have to realize that thoughts are just things. They're not commands. They're necessarily not commandments. I'm not my body and I am not the thoughts in my head.

Then who am I? We had a session in rehab one day and the pastor was really all over me. He says, who are you? Who are you? And I said, well, I'm an oncologist. He says, no, that's what you used to be. And then I said, well, I'm a husband and a father.

And he says, no, those are your relationship. A friend of mine pulled, the guy I was telling you about earlier, pulled me aside and he said, you shut up, I'll tell husband and a father. And so this is, no, those are your relationship. A friend of mine pulled, the guy I was telling you about earlier, pulled me aside and said, shut up, I'll tell you what you are. He says, you are a child of God and your job is to bring God's love into the universe. There's really several.

Might sound a little like a Hallmark greeting card, but if we're talking about let go and let God, if we're talking about removing the ego and letting this love flow through me into the world, that's saying the same thing, isn't it? Is that how you would define surrendering? Yes. I hate the word surrender. I hate that word. I mean, people think it means giving up, throwing up your hands, throwing in the towel, defeat. I hated that word because like you said, it was like, and I spent most of my life trying to acquire power and be in charge and surrender. And then they said, well, you're already actually pretty good at surrendering.

You surrendered everything about you to your drugs and alcohol. Medicine whom I had surrendered to was replaced by lady cocaine and John barleycorn. I worshiped at their altar. I did what they said. And I gave my entire life to them. I worshiped at their altar. I did what they said and I gave my entire life to them. I had already surrendered. But it's not like I'm surrendering to God and I'm going to do his will. I went through a long period trying to figure out what God's will was. And I finally took a line out of the big book and realized that God's will is not what. There was a guy at an AA

meeting one day who said, I don't know if it's God's will, or I should get a blue pickup truck or a red pickup truck. And I thought, no, that's not what it is. Be a purple. Yeah. If I was supposed to be an airline pilot instead of a doctor, then I was going to hell for not following God's will. God's will, for me at least, is not what, but how. It's to live without fear. But that's how the world is set up, though, is to instill fear in every which direction.

Fear of you not being enough. Fear of you not doing enough. Fear of you not believing the right way or doing. Going to the right colleges and being this studious, perfect human being. That's how we can be controlled spirits. The Buddhists use the word samskara. And the idea is something like my dad told me, going down an old country road, he said, pick your rut carefully

or you'll be in it for the next 40 miles, right? And what happens in my mind is if I see beauty as some playboy bunny and some hot girl on a beer commercial, and that becomes my idea of beauty, whenever the idea of beauty comes up, I fall into that rut and I can't get out of it. If I have a terrible resentment against somebody, every time somebody mentions their name, I fall into that rut and I can't get out of it for 40 miles. That's a preconditioned thought pattern, right? And once I realized that those are, I can recognize the thought, I can recognize what it is, I don't have to look by it anymore.

So I don't have to respond reflexively. Once I recognize the nature of thought, and who I really am, about 12 or 13, I had this sudden epiphany of that word. And suddenly, there was this guy over here and a guy over here this one was telling me to do something this was telling me to do something else and whether that was a devil or an angel i don't know suddenly realized that way in the back there was somebody else it was much bigger and more profound than either of these guys and just sat there and went you guys you just don't get it do you all right jesus i mean in the old testament they asked what god's name was and like i said you can't name god so he says aren't you stupid i am who i am that's that's yahweh right when jesus came along he changed it from i am who i am to just simply

i am not that i think therefore i am but i therefore I think. And the I am is that whatever that is, whatever that universal love that comes through me, that's my connection. That's where inspiration comes from. If I'm writing something and it kind of gets like I just close my eyes and meditate for a second, open my eyes and I'm off and running again. In terms of writing, I don't write. It flows through me. I write, I transcribe as fast as I can. And then my job later is to go back and edit the mistakes I made in my transcription. And that's how I write. I think that's how inspiration works. Mozart, he never edited any of his musical compositions. He got it right the first time. Musical genius. You have to have presence to be able to sit with

this. It takes some huge overwhelming event to make me want to stop and say, no, this isn't right. This doesn't sit right with me. And I have to figure out what it is. And I'm willing to do anything to change the way I am. They told me when I came in into rehab, everything you think you know is wrong. And you've got to start from scratch. And the first question is, who are you? And one of the joys of starting recovery is you get to redefine who you are. I don't have to be that old person anymore. Who do I want to be?

What do I want to do in life? You know, it's a wonderful, wonderful freedom. I kept going through the doors and going back out, coming back through the doors, going back out, went to rehab, you know, thought I could kick the alcohol, but keep the cocaine, you know, all those games we play. And I went to physician after physician after physician and manipulated them into believing that I was all these other things, because that way I didn't have to give up the bottle. And so they were giving me anxiety pills

and all kinds of shit. Long story short, I'll never forget. I had to just shut up and I had to put my ego aside. The second I put my ego aside, I've been sober since, but no one told me that's what I had to do. I realized it myself because I kept going in and trying to rearrange the steps and, and outsmart the program and twist what people were saying to fit what I thought was right. And just like you said, I had to unlearn everything, put my ego aside, and just sit and listen. My first second act was a really quite amazing person. I learned a lot from her. And one day she said, I can teach you nothing.

I can only help you remember what you already know. And as a teacher, as a sponsor, that's my job is to simply help you move away from the stuff that's been drowning you and find one of the ways to think about recovery is it removes the crap and lets the good inside come out. As a physician, I'm curious, do you believe addiction is a disease? Because there's a lot of people that get pissed off when they hear that because they're like, no, you get to pick up a bottle and it's a choice. I have cancer. Cancer is a disease.

No. Using is a choice. Addiction is a disease. Like I said, if 10 of us as young people pick up drugs and alcohol, nine of us will put them down. But there is this invisible. First of all,, we inherit a tendency towards it. As you will notice, my mom and dad never used, they smoked cigarettes. And of course, nobody in our family ever had that kind of a problem. And what I got home from recovery, it's like, here's one over here, here's one over here. On both sides of the family, there's bipolars and addictions of every kind. And so the other thing that's funny is that like attracts like. My wife has no alcohol drug history at all, but her brother and her mother do. So there's

something there that attracts us to each other. Just because I have a predilection to some disease doesn't mean I'm going to get it. Just because, you know, one of my natural tendencies is to find a good looking woman, beat her over the head and drag her off into the cave. Well, at some point, we're supposed to overcome those. Yeah, evolve, right? Yes. Now, you can think of you can think of addiction like diabetes. Okay, I can have a predisposition to people in my family may have diabetes, I may never get it. And eating sugar doesn't give me diabetes. All right. But there is some invisible line that I cross one night, and my body chemistry changes. And it will never be the same. If I eat sugar, my blood sugar is going through the roof. Okay. Now I can control this disease for years and years and years. And if I go back to eating sugar, it's still gonna go through the roof.

That invisible line, I can never go back when I'm a diabetic and become a non-diabetic again. Something in my body has changed. Addiction is much like that, I believe. In that there is this invisible line that we cross and somehow in some unknown way, our body chemistry is changed.

Before where I could go to a party and drink till I was drunk and go home and be quite fine. Now I have lost the ability to chew. Okay. Once I take that, once I've crossed that line, I take that first drink and I cannot stop until either we have passed out or we have run out of Gettys. Okay. I no longer have control over, over my drinking. I can't stop anymore. And no longer have control over, over my drinking. I can't stop anymore. And then there's that terrible, that terrible craving that I get. That's part of the alcoholic insanity that I think is hard to wear.

It is that, that no matter how clean and sober and how strong our spirituality of spiritual fitness is, that that will come up and grab us by, by, by, um, um, um, um. You can say balls on our show. Well, that's a different. I have completely lost the choice of using. I can't go to a bar and have two drinks and go home.

I can't go six months without drinking. What do you do when the craving comes through? Aha. I'll tell you a story. I'm full of good stories. I was about a year sober. I was down in Jacksonville, Florida in the springtime. And it was gorgeous. I was at this noon meeting. It was a great meeting. I was feeling great. I was walking down the street, and I thought, well, I'll go down to this deli down at the end of the street, and I'll get me a couple of sandwiches, and I'll have a nice lunch.

And as I walked down the street, this voice comes over my shoulder, and it goes, you can have a glass of wine while you wait. And I went, oh, no, I can't do that. I couldn't possibly do that. And the voice says, you won't be able to smell it on your breath. And I went, that's not right. I know you can smell wine on somebody's breath, but if the voice says it, it must be true. And now I'm freaked. I'm walking down the street and I am totally freaked out. I don't have a big book to open. This was actually in the days before cell phones. So I date myself. So I couldn't call my sponsor. I just come out of the meeting. What do I do? And the voice says, you can have two. If I had two glasses of wine, I wouldn't stop until they pulled me into a cabin when I closed the place down. And I had no idea what to do.

And then it popped in my head. I could pray. Well, at that point, my prayers were very rudimentary. I couldn't think of anything to pray. And then all of a sudden, I thought of the serenity prayer. And I prayed the serenity prayer all the way through to the end. And I was so frightened, I started over again and started praying it again. And I got halfway through through and i stopped because

i couldn't remember why i was praying i walked down the street went into the went into the deli got my sandwiches and on the way out as i checked out i suddenly remembered what had happened on the street and i laughed and that's what i do that's the when when a thought comes into my head today like oh don't you remember how much fun it was to shoot up? And I go, no. But I can recognize the thought in him as opposed to just let it fall over me. And I have this marvelous prayer that always works. God, I thank you for keeping me clean and sober today. That's it.

And it's good for 24 hours. For the next 24 hours, I will not have any thought of using again. Prayer is really funny. It's only good for 24 hours. It's like daily bread. You know, you triggered a memory for me. I don't know that I believe in what would be so-called the devil, but that's the word I'm going to use.

I remember when I went into meetings, they said, be careful because the second you start asking God into your life, the devil's going to start doing pushups. And I was like, oh, what the hell does that mean? I'll never forget. I was newly sober and I hadn't experienced like what you just had. I was just at home doing my thing, working my program, being a mom. I go to walk out to my mailbox and I shit you not. There were four tiny little bottles of wine in my mailbox. Where the hell did they come from? I don't know. You don't know?

Oh, I have no idea. I posted a picture on Facebook and was like, the devil is coming for me. You probably put them in there and didn't remember. No, girl. I was sober. Just joking. Oh, God, that's horrible. I don't remember this.

Yes. And there was little tests like this that I was finding all I'm just joking. Oh God, that's horrible. I don't remember this. Yes. And there was little like tests like this that I was finding all over the place. And as you know, Lynn, it's like all of a sudden you notice every liquor store that you never noticed before. You notice every drink that someone all of a sudden is consuming. Like the craziest stuff when you first get sober, like why is all of this popping out at me right now? I'm extremely blessed because I don't

know that I've truly ever had a craving this time and this time around in the last 10 years. I can truly say, I feel like it was lifted from me through prayer and just asking God to take it from me. Think about the big book. How many times is the word God or higher power in there? How many times is the word devil in there yeah none it's not in there if the universe is based upon unconditional love then no matter what i do i have forgiveness i think that the moment you were born you were given forgiveness for everything you might do in this life yes i don't need a devil i am responsible for all my problems i am the root of all my temptations. Okay. Nobody

ever held me down, put a needle in my vein. Nobody ever held me down and put booze in my throat. So I reach a point where I can say there is no devil, there is no hell, there is no death. All right. Because that little teeny bit of consciousness in me is eternal. It partakes of everything of my father. It is eternal. It is, it can't obviously shove enough intelligence in me to make an ear of corn, but nonetheless, I partake of the entire universe. And here's the good eat. Now, if God is in you, you're in God and I am in God and God is in me, then I am in you and you are in me. as children of God we are we're not just sort of the same we are exactly the same then our heritage and our samskaras and our bodies all give us

different ways of looking at the world yeah you know what else I find is amazing that I was thinking about when you guys were talking about that is that separation and that in the difference between knowing that you have an ego and that you are a soul because your ego will tempt you, but your soul doesn't care about any of that stuff. Your soul's here for a purpose and a mission, but yet your ego does as well have a purpose and a mission and will tempt you. And so always knowing the difference between where those thoughts are coming from. If you're present enough to be able to say, hey, wait a second, my soul does not need that. My soul has everything it needs.

You can see there the power of mindfulness, of living in the moment. My goal in recovery is not just not to drink. Well, my definition is not drinking. That's a dry drug and not useful. Sobriety is when I come into the meetings and I quit drinking and I get a hold of some kind of higher power, even if it's only the group. But I haven't really embarked on the pathway of recovery.

The last page of the big book, Bill W. talks about meeting you on the road of happy destiny. Well, I translate that to be walking the spiritual path. How I relate to the universe and how I behave in the world based on that relationship is it tells me how to make the scene. Now I have a goal. My goal in recovery is serenity. And so a decision comes up and I ask myself, will this take me towards my goal or away from my goal?

My goal is serenity. I have to limit the amount of news for years now that I watch because it will try to take me out is serenity. I have to limit the amount of news for years now that I watch because it will try to take me out of serenity. I don't want that. I've worked too hard to get it. You ain't taking me out of it. I can live in the moment. I'm happy that the weight of the past doesn't hang on me.

I'm not afraid of the future. It's a place of peace and joy. My mother called it the peace, the passive understanding. I think I know what that means. The goal is to live in a state of serenity all the time. Yeah. You've got the big book of A. If you're like me, look at it as like my lifeline. It doesn't leave my bedside. What is different about your book versus that book? Are you just breaking down? Are you breaking it? There you go. For our listeners, he just showed me his big book.

Let's talk about your book. What does it consist of? What does it look like? How's it laid out? When I left rehab, my psychiatrist is the same one. They kept me there for almost eight months. I was so sick. Okay. She said, Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, I told you I was sick. In these eight months, you've had an incredible amount of wisdom and lessons and stories shoved into your head. And your job now is to take these above out into the world. I owe a debt to Paul and all the dozens of other people who reached out to help me when quite literally I was dying. I can't go out and proselytize. It doesn't work, as we've discussed.

But when someone reaches out for help, I have to be there to try to help, to give what I can give of what I've been given. So over the last 23 years, I've collected endless numbers of stories that people have told me, shared in the meeting, huge number of lessons as well. Each story then contains a lesson. The book starts out, it's a memoir, because it's me and a bunch of physicians going through rehab. It's a textbook on how to overcome addiction. So I wrap these lessons, put them in consecutive order. So you can start on day one. This is what you do on day one. You've learned about the disease. Then you move to how to treat it. Where do you begin? What do

you need to know? It includes the stories of five or six different doctors as they went through the program, men and women. Some made it, some didn't. Some survived, and some died. The stories are amazing. There is the story of a surgeon who didn't think he had a problem until he came out of a blackout, standing in the operating room, who was over the open abdomen of a patient he didn't know and had no idea what he was doing. He broke down, said, you close for me, buddy. I'm going to go into the dressing room and began to cry. And it turns out his partner took him to his first AA meeting the day after.

There was another guy named Charles who ended up in the Atlanta federal prison. The DEA got him because he had reached a point where he was taking one to 200 pain pills a day, all right? And his story was that he had back pain, and the doctor gave him narcotics for his back, and he kept taking them because he liked the way they made him feel. So after a while, the doctor wouldn't prescribe him anymore, and he started doing doctor shopping around town, and they wouldn't prescribe him anymore. So we started writing for himself and he took them to different pharmacies all over town so he wouldn't get caught. And he said, I must've been a little lazy the last time I did it because the DEA came and arrested. They were sure that I must be dealing because of the total, the huge number of drugs I was getting. And he ended up in the federal pen in Atlanta, which is where I went

to rehab. And the guy that ran the rehab center was a doctor. And he heard about him and he got him kind of paroled to rehab with the idea that if he completed the program, the DEA would go easy on him. Well, Charles was there to stay out of jail, to stay out of prison. And he would do anything to stay out of prison, except you can't go through recovery to get your truck back, to get your family back, to get your job back or get out of jail. And so he did fairly well. And then we heard some months later that he'd hatched another scheme to import drugs from overseas in Canada or something to try to beat the rats. They got him again and he's doing, as they said, eight years of hard time in the big house. So many stories like that, I think, are eight years of hard time in the big house. So many stories

like that, I think are just fascinating. Each one carries its own lesson. You can't get sober for some exterior thing. It has to come from inside. The thing about addiction is that it's a very, very democratic disease. It doesn't care how much money your daddy has, where you went to school, what kind of car you drive. It doesn't matter if you work as a doctor or a librarian. We used to call this one lady, she was like in the PTO and boy, you could always get some cocaine from her. It's 10% across the board. In any part of the world that you look at it, and the disease is so powerful, it overwhelms all of those different features. There's no room for politics.

There's no room for religion. We all share the same fear, and we've been through the same thing. So when a newcomer comes and he sits down, I said, I know everything about you already. And I tell him his life story, and he can't believe I know all about him. So it really doesn't care who you know, who you are. So speaking of fear, what do you, what do you mean that I can live a life without fear? In the opening lines of the Dhammapada,

the Buddha says the secret to life is to learn to live without fear. I don't have to live in fear anymore. Okay. I have to recognize it. I can recognize the thought. I can recognize I feel this little jittery in here, and I go, you're afraid. What are you afraid of? Why? Well, you know, but I don't have to know what I'm afraid of. Immediately, my response now is, God, I thank you for taking away this fear and replace it with the faith that no matter what happens, everything will be all right. Now, faith replaces fear. It doesn't say it in the AA big book, but it does say it in the NA big book. And in the Bible, I've been told

that over 300 times, faith and fear are linked together. Fear not, O ye of little faith, right? Faith is an interesting idea. It's not that faith that Jesus coming down from the mothership to heal me and take me away. No, it's faith that when I pray this prayer, something happens and it's answered. When I pray this other prayer about to keep me clean and sober today, then it's answered and something happens. I have faith that something somewhere is responding to this thought and I can depend on it absolutely and completely, right? And today, it doesn't matter what comes down the line. I'm not afraid of it. There's nothing that can hurt me anymore.

One day, I was out in the garden, and my wife came out, and her car had a flat tire. And she says, wait a minute, come and help me. So I put my hole down, and I walked over. And I said, well, dear, we're really lucky it's only flat on one side. So I took the air pump out and filled it up. We drove down to our mechanic. He took it off and in 20 minutes, he put a plug in. We were paying him 20 bucks and we were back out in the garden. Nothing can come down the line that I can't handle today. Nothing, not a single thing. All right. I have spiritual tools. I have

friends I can call. I have spiritual principles and I can keep in front of me. I have this faith that no matter what happens, everything's going to be all right. So facing it, like stop running. What is the fear? Where does it come from? Let's just conquer this shit right now and stand up to it. So that way we don't have this fear anymore that we've been running from all this time that's really a lie the fear is a lie anyways usually it's just a lie don't even really exist yep my wife and I was going to the grocery store and I said while you're there pick up a bag of fear it's it's right there between the potatoes and the apples I think go over to the canned drink counter and get a six

pack of stress okay it's right there next to the Fresco. And she came back and said, I can't find either one of those. They aren't real. I love that. And I can control the thoughts in my head. And it's practice. Practice makes perfect. The army advertises and they say that the price of freedom is constant vigilance.

To live without fear requires constant vigilance but i mean carrying rifles and whatever but in my head the price of freedom freedom from fear is constant vigilance of my thoughts it says the big book it says we should live happy joyous and free and the free means freedom from fear yeah tell you another story but i knew i wasn't going to go back into medicine, I did that same thing. What am I going to do? What should I do? And the next morning I woke up and there were two words sitting on my stomach and it was

live free. And I thought, what does that mean? What does that mean? Free dope, free sex, free love. I was from that generation. It never worked. And so a couple of weeks later, I did it again. What am I supposed to do when I get out of here?

And the next morning I had two words on my belly and they were live freely and it took me two years to figure out that it meant live free of fear sometimes i think of god's will as just the line right out of the big book where our inheritance as a child of God, as a life that is happy, joyous, and free from fear. Yes. And all those are possible. It's amazing how well it works. What do they say? Freedom don't come easy. We have a listener out there that's questioning if they're an alcoholic or an addict, what would you say to them? Well, the first thing is that I can't tell you if you're an alcoholic or an addict, it's something you have to decide for yourself. But there are a few clues, all right?

If you've gotten a DUI, that's really worrisome. If you've gotten two DUIs, I don't think there's any doubt about it. If a normal person gets drunk once out of 50,000 times driving his car, he's not going to get caught. The odds are against it. But if I'm drunk every other time that I'm driving my car, the odds are in favor of it, which is why I can say that. Am I having negative consequences? Have I gotten fired for showing up drunk? Have I spent my whole paycheck over the weekend on a binge? Have my wife and children told me that they're going to leave? Have I wrecked

my car three times? Those are clues that something is going wrong. If I'm consistently having negative consequences, that's a big clue. In the big book, they give you two tests. The first is simply, can you go to a bar, have two drinks and go home without having any more? And the other is, can you go for six months without drinking? My sponsor tried that six months without drinking. And he had two quarts of vodka in the freezer waiting for six months and one minute, so he could start drinking again, just the food and stuff. But it really

wasn't. Thank you for explaining that. Because I think a lot of people do teeter, you know, back and forth, like, am I am I not? And of course, we can't tell you if you are not because we're all different. You know, I had a lady once in a meeting who said she just had like a couple of glasses every night. And who am I to judge if it's affecting her life in a negative way or not? We got to wrap it up. I feel like we could talk to you forever. Of course, there is one thing because you're so good with words that I would like for you to describe this insane craving and hear what, how you describe it. Cause I I want to know because I know what it felt like for me but I've never been able to find words to describe it this insane craving that you have a hard time explaining to others what would you say it's something that comes unbidden it's a thought that comes unbidden and it overwhelms me all right I can't get the thought to lean. It's that somehow I really need to get high, that something is bothering me. I need to shut down my consciousness. I need to blast everything that's conscious in my brain.

Like the guy at the meeting who, in the big book, who suddenly had this idea that if he poured his whiskey into milk, it wouldn't get high. Like the voice I heard that said, they won't be able to smell it on your breath. It's crazy. It's insane. That is the insanity of addiction. And if you've never crossed that line into addiction, you won't understand it. All earth people, those guys out there who would tell us, why don't you just quit? Like I did. It's a choice. Why don't you just put it down? Well, they don't have it. And it's like trying to explain a sunset to a person who's been blind from birth. I can't tell you what it's like unless you've experienced it and you recognize it right away. It is insane. And now it's time for Break That Shit Down. Life is good.

I have to have the eyes to see it. I have to be willing to change the things that are giving me trouble. And when I do, life becomes so absolutely wonderful. And it's hard to describe today. After 23 years, I am the happiest and the most content I have ever been in my life. That's that hope piece, right? More than hope, it's faith too. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you for that. Your book, Spiritual Pathway to Recovery from Addiction, A Physician's Journey of Discovery. And it was published in September. Where can they find it? It's pretty much every place online. You can get it from Amazon. You can get it from Barnes and Noble. It's even for sale in Japan and the Netherlands. I have a website called theanswerisrecovery.com where I discuss the disease of addiction and its treatment.

I have another website called Spiritual Pathway to Recovery where I talk about the book and myself in a much more personal way. And that's where my blog is as well. So those are the two ways. And there's contact forms on both of those sites. Well, we have a huge following of people that are in recovery because I share my story so rawly on social media, as we all do, right? All of us in AA just have that gift of being vulnerable because we know it helps others. Shanna and I did this with intention of just helping one person, one person who was having a hard time turning their pain into purpose.

You have a gift with your words, your spiritual principles, and your recovery is evolved. It's not the typical thing you hear in meetings about the oneness and the Buddha and bringing that all together in one. And that's beautiful to hear that you're there because there are people in recovery that need to hear that side of the spirituality and how, how beautiful it is when it evolves after so many years in recovery. So that piece is beautiful. Shanna, do you want to add anything? I do. I mean, we did the very beginning.

We even said that our very first podcast thought, you know what, we were going to sit here and talk and share our story. And if someone wanted to listen, you know, they could, and we would be happy just for one person. And we, you know, over a hundred thousand downloads. So literally there are many people that are listening and that we're helping. And so anybody should continue to share their story because you don't know how far you're reaching. And like you said, Lynn, we're all connected. We're all part of each other. And so we're not alone. No one's alone. And you know what, for our listeners, if you are struggling with addiction, go to his website,

pick up his book to me and Lynn, correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like it is like a perfect combination to get the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous with yours right next to it. And the book discusses the principles behind the steps. It's not a rehash of the steps, but what are the ideas and what are the principles that you need to learn to change your life? Today, I guarantee you've helped someone. I know you've helped me. So thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for today. Thank you for spending this time with us. We're forever friends now. Yeah, I knew that. Beautiful and wonderful. And I really appreciate being able to spend this morning with you guys. Yeah, you too.

Many of our listeners have asked how they can support sense of soul podcast. You can now buy Mandy and I a cup of coffee by going to www.mysenseofsoul.com and go to the coffee fund. You can also take one of our many workshops or classes online. We love to meet our listeners and work with them. And we'd like to give a shout out to our buddy Bill Ranshaw. Thank you so much, Bill, for your donation. We appreciate you so much. Check out Bill at BillWilderman.org. Go check him out. Bill is doing great things.

Thanks for being with us today. We hope you will come back next week if you like what you hear don't forget to rate like and subscribe thank you we rise to lift you up thanks for listening