Sense of Soul - Ancient Divination The I Ching Oracle

Episode Date: February 25, 2022

Today on Sense of Soul Podcast we have Timothy and Johanna Dowdle, author of The I Ching Oracle - A guide through the human maze. Their book is designed to help the reader find a way through the complexities of and challenges of everyday life. This husband and wife team is an Anglo-Dutch couple who have lived and worked in many different countries and are currently living in the Netherlands. Over the years they have studied and practised the art of divination, using divination as a tool for making important decisions. Their aim is to share the knowledge and wisdom of the I Ching and make it accessible to everyone. Their book is an introduction to the mysteries of the ancient Chinese divination tool known as the I Ching. It's a 4,000-year-old template of 64 hexagrams, each consisting of six solid or broken lines that can be consulted for wisdom and guidance on situations faced in everyday life. You can order The I Ching Oracle here Follow their journey on Fb  Please rate this episode 5 stars and leave us a comment and review! Visit our website to learn more about us www.mysenseofsoul.com On Sense of Soul Patreon is a community of seekers and lightworkers who want exclusive workshops, live events for example, sacred circles and ad free episodes. Exclusive episodes only on Patreon,  Shanna’s mini-series about her ancestral journey, “Untangled Roots” and Mande’s mini series about her two NDE’s,  Sign up now! https://www.patreon.com/senseofsoul NEW!! SENSE OF SOUL’S NETWORK OF LIGHTWORKERS! Go check out our Affliates page, adding new amazing programs each month. Check it out! https://www.mysenseofsoul.com/sense-of-soul-affiliates-page    

Welcome to the Sense of Soul podcast. We are your hosts, Shanna and Mandy. Grab your coffee, open your mind, heart and soul. It's time to awaken. Today we have with us Timothy and Joanna Dowdle. They are a husband and wife team who co-authored the book, The I Ching Oracle. This book is a guide through the human maze and is designed to help the reader find their way through complexities and challenges of everyday life. Timothy and Joanna show the reader how to consult The I Ching Oracle and receive clear answers to important questions. We are super excited to talk to them and to learn more about the I Ching. Thank you so much for joining us, you guys. Welcome. Hello. Hi, I'm Shanna. Nice to meet you. Hello. Hello. How does the picture look?

Oh, y'all look wonderful. Okay, the lighting's okay then. Yeah, it looks like you guys have the sun behind you. That's the light in the cellar. Oh, in the basement. Oh, in the cellar. Yeah. Nice. What's a cellar? That is the quietest place. It's also the best place because it's the wine cellar.

So you don't lack anything to drink here. It really does look like you have the sun behind you and this morning i woke up with the song here comes the sun by the beatles here comes the sun and i was singing it all morning to my kids well that's great well well you're you're all far away in colorado well we're in a kind of different world here because we're living in the far north of the Netherlands. It's kind of a different world from where you are. As far as I understand, in Colorado, you have this amazing landscape of mountains. Yeah. Do you live close to the mountains of or further east or further west we live in the

plains but we see the full mountain range and so it takes like maybe 30 minutes to get to the mountains but you're living on the eastern Colorado yes yeah the mountains are far enough away so you can still see the sunset. There's a certain point behind the mountain range. Every night, yes. You did some social work over in the U.S. for a long time. Where were you guys at? Well, we were in a few different places.

Most of the time we were in North Carolina. And that was a great experience there. But we also spent some time in Ohio and briefly in Maryland and also briefly in Texas. So we traveled around and we, it was a great experience. We were also in Oregon for three weeks. That was the start. You know, I just wanted to say that I have an overwhelming, like, sense of gratitude for having you guys on today for many reasons. Number one, I feel like I know I'm going to be a student today.

I can't wait to hear about your book and about the I Ching. And so I just, I feel so grateful. So thank you for taking the time to talk to us today. Well, I can only say thanks very much for having us. We appreciate it very much. And you guys are adorable. You're like the cutest couple in your cellar ever. How long have you guys been together?

We've been together now for this year. It will be 35 years that we work together and 33 years that we have been officially married congratulations thank you did the I Ching help you guys in your marriage that's a great question but actually we never consulted the I Ching about our relationship. Somehow the relationship was given. If we consulted the I Ching, it was really to find our way through the world, to find a pathway. That was how we did it. Well, let's talk about the I Ching Oracle.

What is it? Let's just start there. Well, the I Ching is a Chinese classic. It was compiled and written about a thousand years BC. It's one of the oldest books in the world. It is an oracle. You can ask it a question. You can consult the oracle and the oracle will give you information and guide you through whatever situation you're in. That is the essence of it, I suppose. Do we know who wrote the A Ching? Well, according to traditional scholars, King Wen and his son, the Duke of Chu, really compiled the 64 hexagrams and came with a written text. The 64 hexagrams each have a text that King Wen and his son put to the hexagram. So everything

that they wrote is actually an explanation of what is happening in a hexagram. So it is actually a collection of archetypal situations. So all of these situations are situations that everybody experiences. It's a little bit similar to tarot in that sense. So in your book offers a method to interpret this, these hexagrams, is that right? Yeah, with our book, you can consult the Oracle, you can ask the Oracle a question. The whole idea is that you can find a pathway through life. You might be in a situation where you're confused, or you can't see the way forward.

And you ask the oracle, how do I get through this? What kind of solution can I find? And the oracle will give you information about the situation you're in and also give you information about the situation it will transform into. So you can see into your future, your personal future, and find a way forward. That is the whole principle of consulting in Oracle. I really loved the word maze. A guide through the human maze is designed to help the reader find a way through the complexities and challenges of everyday life. Because when I was looking in your book, I did, I felt like it was like this maze. And I think that's a perfect way to describe life. I mean, we all know life can be tough. It is tough. It's not

easy. It's not a picnic. So the whole point of the art of divination is kind of a golden tool you can use to see into your future, find a way to overcome whatever difficulties you're in. How did the I Ching land in your hands? I know it was like this common thread that brought the two of you together. How did the I Ching end? In fact, that was via me. I got it from a friend. Hoe de e-cheque kwam, dat was via mij. Ik kreeg het van een vriend. Word of mouth is soms heel belangrijk met deze oracles.

Mijn vriend had een kopie van de versie die Richard Bilhelm van de e-cheque maakte. Vertraald in het Nederlands. En ze zette dat aan mij. Richard Wilhelm made of the I Ching, translated in Dutch, and she showed that to me and she demonstrated to me how the oracle worked. At that point I had hardly heard of oracles and I was of course immediately fascinated because I asked a question and the answer to that question was surprisingly on the dot. And when I was back at home, at a certain point I found the book. I bought the book and then I started doing it for myself. And when Tim and I met, I consulted together with Tim about a number of issues. And that's how we started with the I Ching together.

So I brought the I Ching into our relationship. And then we teamed up. And thanks to the fact that I could find an English translation, that is the same Richard Wilhelm, but translated into English by Carrie Baines, I got hold of that. Tim could also participate. And that really brought it alive because then we started using it as a guide. Yeah and that's a really interesting point because I remember that when we started consulting Yi Qing we were living in a situation that we weren't exactly happy with the kind of life we had. We consulted the Oracle and we got the indication from the Oracle that

best thing we can do is leave it. So what we did is we got hold of the van and put a few things in it and just took to the road. We just headed out and gave up the place we were living in and went traveling from then on we just use the Oracle. Yeah you can put it like that, it was some sort of quest, you can say and then we arrived somewhere, did some things and then set out again and that continued for a number of years and that is how we came to live in a number of countries in the Netherlands we traveled and stayed for a while in Greece not settled but in the van and then we came back to the Netherlands and went to the UK, lived there for a while, came back to the Netherlands.

All kind of started to realize we were kind of sent on a journey and that journey led through these several countries and several homes because it was all a journey in order to learn and to learn to use this oracle. Because it was clearly the idea is by living it, you could make it more clear for other people, especially people here in the West, because all these Chinese metaphors, that's all very fine, but it is fairly cryptic. And what we have done in this book is combine the Chinese wisdom and then run it through our own experience with the various hexagrams, the various situations as described in the I Ching. And the result of that after all these years is this book, the descriptions that we have in this book. Along with the Oracle,, did this expand this

divination? Because I know a lot of times when I am very connected to things and say I do go to like the tarot or something for divination, for answers, I even like rock readings. I feel like that's just the beginning. Then I start seeing signs and synchronicity, have these little hints and validations from the universe. Yeah, synchronicity. Yeah, there's so many examples. In the I Ching, you have hexagram 49, the revolution. Now, that is a situation where you really want a change of lifestyle, maybe a change of location, when you're ready for it, when you really want it, and you're prepared to give things up, move on, change, then that's where the synchronicity comes in.

Because then things in the outside world start to develop in such a way that you can link up to them. So an opportunity comes up from the outside world, very surprisingly, but just when you're ready to grab it. So that's the synchronicity aspect. So when you're consoling these oracles, it's really alive. It's your life.

If you get a hexagram like 55, which is abundance, then you experience some abundance in your life. It's real. So you can see when you consult the Oracle what you're going to experience. And the great thing about it is it increases your self-awareness because you become more aware of what kind of person you are and what kind of world you're in, what kind of situations you're in. So it's really an amazing yeah guide really I love that um you had mentioned that it had 64 is it still 64 in your book or have you guys channeled any other no it's it's absolutely 64 because it's a it's a perfect mathematical model

okay because uh what happens is to be a little bit technical about this uh eight trigrams a trigram consists of three horizontal lines okay eight trigrams combine to form 64 hexagrams it's it's it's absolutely. There's no other way it can be done. So what we've done with our book is we've simply taken the 64 hexagrams and all the lines of the hexagrams, and we describe what each hexagram means in terms of being a real life situation. So it's an archetypal situation. If you take a tarot card, a tarot card is often some kind of situation, archetypal situation. Well, a hexagram is very similar. It's also an archetypal situation. All of these hexagrams are scenes from real life what we've done with our book is we've written descriptions of the hexagrams based on the experience we had when we received the hexagrams i don't know if

that makes sense to you we had on kim kranz who is an author and the artist of the wild unknown decks and here in america it's like a bestseller yeah we listen to that do you hear her talk about her deck that she's coming out with a hexagon deck and because she visioned a honeycomb and what another thing that's very interesting is she also compared this younger generations as a hexagon been seeing've been seeing this a lot, that so many people are receiving things and they don't even know where they come from. And they're actually, you know, ancient knowledge or something. And you're like, wow, I can't believe they wrote about this, you know, in BC and I'm receiving this and I'm just a suburban mother.

Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. But I did listen to the podcast and I was very interested in what she was saying when she was in church and she was putting the pictures together for a deck and the kind of life she's had when she went to the concentration camp where Anne Frank was. And I listened to that and I thought, well, this is a really special person. I really enjoyed that. Yeah she's coming out with that hexagon deck in the spring. That is a deck the cards of the deck I grasp that

for in the shape of hexagrams because that is the idea of the shape of the honey the honeycarts in a beehive. The I Ching hexagrams don't have that. They are called hexagrams because they are patterns of six horizontal lines. And that is what Tim talked about before. There are combinations of trigrams of three lines.

Well, that's interesting because a hexagram, if you say the word, you know, a hexagram sounds very geometrical, very abstract, but actually once you get into it and you really look at these hexagrams, they actually have a visual quality. It's not as amazingly visual as say a tarot card, but they are visual. So if you look at a hexagram, you can see the hexagram is a combination of two trigrams. But when you look further into it, it also has an inner hexagram of two more trigrams. And each trigram is an energy that's characteristic of a certain situation. So you have the trigram flowing water. The energy in the situation is a situation that's really moving, that has a certain power. And then you have another hexagram that's called Ken, keeping still, it's in the shape of a mountain. That's a situation that's really static, that on the face of the world,

there's nothing happening. So in other words, if you really look at hexagrams in depth, they do have a visual quality that is similar to tarot. Sacred geometry period just fascinates me in any way. I mean, and I hate mathematics. In fact, I made a new word. So it's not mathematical, it's mathematical. Okay. Yeah. And that is the magic in in mathematics because i mean i mean i'm lousy in mathematics but if you read if you read the greeks i mean the the old greeks pythagoras plato for For the Greeks, the mathematics had magic because numbers are timeless.

Speaking of numbers, I was looking up the numerology behind 64 and wow, it's so beautiful because, you know, six, six is the perfect balance between material aspects and the spiritual. Four is stability and balance. And then if you add six and four together you get ten which breaks down to one and guess what one is it's the sun yeah and unity of course yeah yeah i have i've never looked at it that way so it is a result of a certain mathematic reasoning. Of course, one with the sun, because that takes us back to the beginning of our conversation,

that it looks like the sun is right behind you. Yeah, right. Now, and also hexagram one in the I Ching is the symbol of heaven, the timeless place, what is what they call

the old golden land. It's the great beyond. You want to know what's interesting about that is when I had my near-death experience and felt like I had, well, and I crossed over, I was seeing gold flakes all around my brother who had passed away, all around him in his aura. Wow. That's the gold, yeah. Yeah.

The golden land. One is also the number for creation, for the creator. And interestingly enough, number one is also the number of the card in tarot, the magician, who is also capable of creating who can channeling and be channeling the creative in his power of influence and in his power of creating things i always find that

everything is so connected did you see things very similar to say other cultures and their belief systems because i have found that throughout everything that we have learned that there's always some sort of like meshing of course like there's so much separation because that's done by man but i think originally you'll find so many similarities i think that's great i, that takes us back to the whole notion of archetypal situations, because you're looking at situations that we all share an experience. So you have in the I Ching, you have a hexagram about exhaustion, you have a hexagram about joy, you have a hexagram about conflict, you have a hexagram about endurance. So all of these hexagrams are all archetypal situations that we all experience. So it's impossible to

to really divide mankind. It's impossible to divide mankind because human experience is all the same we all share the same human experience and that is why these oracles work because it doesn't matter whether you live in Hong Kong or London or Vancouver if you consult the oracle you will have the same experience because you're all human people and that's the way it

works. The only trouble is that when you start codifying an oracle that you do that through the filter of your own culture. So of course the I Ching was codified by Chinese and therefore through the filter of their culture. And Richard Wilhelm tried to make a blend of it, with due respect to what it was and without diverting from that nevertheless took the whole world through the Western filter. The same archetype could be understood by Westerners. But it is the same archetype and we all experience it. You have a choice that you'll come to in life where you can move forward and shed the conditions that the world have put on you, like religion. You know, there's all kinds of them, like as a

female, what you're supposed to be. I know for me personally, I got a lot of people telling me that using the Oracle in any way whatsoever would bring in negative energy and that it's of the dark spirit. It seems to be that I was faced with the choice of, okay, I'm going to shed some friends and some people in my life because according to them, me using these guides is dark. And I've chose to stand courageous in the fact that I do not believe that, nor have I ever received any darkness from any sort of oracle. What are your thoughts on that? I think that's really interesting what you're saying, because what we understand from the I Ching Oracle, you have the whole panorama of 64 hexagrams. All of these are different real life situations. And what happens is that you go through these situations during your lifetime, because through doing so so you develop as an individual.

So the whole point is it's about being an authentic individual. An authentic individual is a free thinker. An authentic individual hasn't signed up to a particular authority. So what happens is that when you choose to be free, when you choose to be a free human being, to think for yourself, to think individually, then inevitably you will leave some people behind who don't share that awareness. And I think that's what happens. But that's okay.

The evolution. That's what I'm getting when you were talking, Joanna, is that for the times, you know, so many people may even read some old scripture and not get it. And I understand. I'm one of them. Right now I'm reading the Pistis Sophia and I don't know if you're familiar with the Pistis Sophia, but it's an

old scripture. And I'm like, huh, what, what the heck is she talking about? Sometimes it is better to reach people today by, you know, cause we have evolved. And that's what I've been saying forever. I mean, we amend, you know, things in our constitution here in America to fit the times like somebody needs to amend some of these old scriptures so that we understand them or they're more for today yeah yeah that that's right so I think that yeah once again here we are we're born into this world we're born into a society into a culture but it's up to us to develop as individuals and that means that you need to be free of the collective consciousness really kind of the any hive mentality you have to be free of that and just stand on your own and find your way forward and check things out and don't believe what anybody says to you. Just check it out for yourself.

I agree with Mandy that if you come from a background where oracles and things like that are seen as coming from the devil, from the dark side, then you have to really stand up and walk away from it. While there are other things in that culture that could be very worthwhile. I myself, I come from a fairly down-to-earth background,

where they go to church, but they have trouble really believing in what is said in the church. Do I believe in God? believing in what is said in the church. Do I believe in God? Yes, Jesus is a historical figure, etc. But if you then come on board with oracles, which is something that is based on a random process but could tell you the truth, then they say, look, that's simply a heap of rubbish and although it is easier to walk away from than it is to walk away from a tradition

you also have to stand up and say okay you think it's rubbish i want to investigate it and so from that point of view i've said i will spend my life testing out what is rubbish and what is not yes in fact i don't know if you know the term sleuth it's like an investigator you know oh yeah yeah so yeah just yesterday because i'm doing, I'm like deep diving into this old scripture from like Nagamati and stuff. And this girl on this text said, we're like the spiritual sleuths. I was like, we are.

Jana, I sent that to you like two months ago, remember? I know, and I told her that, yeah. I love that name. Spiritual sleuths. Yeah, you really go down a lot of rabbit holes. Do you guys use any other tools for your guidance or do you always go to the I Ching? We also use the tarot. I'd like to use I Ching and Thoreau parallel because they each have their own qualities. And for the rest, there is a way of reading omens, simply things that you see outside. I have a very strong example from that. When we lived in France at a certain point, we wanted to move to the UK, back to the UK. We found that we were more at home there than in

France. And actually in the year that we would be moving there, that we would be able, that we didn't know yet, but that we would be able to move to the UK. And there was a flock of cranes, a kind of bird, and they were first circling over our house. They made about three circles above our house. And then they flew off from where we lived, the north-westerly direction. And that was the UK. And that was for me a sign, yes, this year we'll move. And that happened.

Wow, a flock of cranes oh that must have been beautiful too. And what we see with the combination of I Ching and Tarot together is that I Ching comes generally with a general outline and if we want to have a very detailed roadmap short term or sometimes longer term then the tarot can sometimes give you the smaller steps but the I Ching gives you the

general outline although when you want to make a decision about something like should I take this job then I find the I Ching very useful the I Ching simply gives

an answer and the I Ching I find more straightforward because with tarot cards there are so many possible interpretations and you have to learn to deal with that you have certain books

that give them all sorts of possible interpretations, sometimes even contradictory and I find that very difficult and the I Ching is much more from original onwards

like this is what it means I like that and that is why personally I say if you want to start these oracles the I Ching is more direct it's more like this is what it means.

But tarot is very worthwhile. But I find that I could only get into that when my intuition was developed a bit further. Are there certain questions the readers have to ask the questions, or can you ask the I Ching anything you want? You can certainly ask anything you want that you feel is really important. It has to be important, obviously. So intention. Yeah, certainly it has to have.

You have to have a clear desire or hope or deep wish that is very sincere and very important to you. Let me think of an example. You might be in a situation that you're not totally happy with. You might feel unfulfilled. You might feel lost. You need to find your way out of it, you come with a sincere question of how can I come through this, what can I do to change this situation, all fundamental questions you can ask and you will receive an answer that will give you the necessary information to understand what's happening.

The I Ching, does it mean the Book of Change? Yeah, sure. The I Ching or Book of Change, it's because the whole series of hexagrams, which are, as we said, archetypal real-life situations, they're all in a process of change so one hexagram is changing into another so that's why it's called the book of changes i love that i mean so many people get so stuck you know and don't want to change and it's like the seasons change we change we grow we never don't that impermanence which is is probably much of King Wen and his son's practice. Well, yeah, that's right. It's amazing.

If you look at the I Ching, if you look through some of the hexagrams, you often find that situations where people are faced with change and they don't want it or they find difficulty coping with the prospect of change maybe they have a lifestyle that is coming to an end that can't continue so they have to move on they have to develop into something new so this So this is the whole point of changes, because change is kind of almost the engine of development, because through change we grow, we evolve as people, and therefore the book of changes illustrates how we can do that.

So if you consult it, you can follow the possibility of changes that will actually help you to develop as an individual. That's kind of the point of it. I'm going to ask you, and please feel free to say no. Can you give us a demonstration? Like Shanna could maybe ask a question. Oh, wow. That's difficult to do because we don't give consultations because what we always say is it's much, it's really important for the individual to consult the oracle him or herself. Okay. Good to know. The whole point is if you have the oracle, you can consult it independently of anybody else.

That's the whole meaning of it. So it's not like a rating? No, we don't give ratings. But what we do do, and we have had contact with readers who've actually bought their book and consulted it. And we had very nice contact with somebody who had consulted the oracle, but actually had not quite managed to consult it correctly. And so this person got an incorrect answer. So what we did is we pointed out where the person had made a mistake,

and as a result, we helped him out. So we told him exactly what hexagrams and lines he'd actually received. Fortunately, this person had written down what he went off and simply give him the diagrams of how the message worked. And then it worked for him. So we have said on our Facebook that we are quite happy to help readers on their way that way. So in your case, if you wanted to do something, you would have to roll the coins

and then you can determine what the algorithm is. It brings me to another subject where it really becomes difficult to do it for somebody else. You can ask a question. Say, for instance, I want to move on.

Should I move on from this place? And then the I Ching comes with an answer that you say, what does this have to do with it? And what that means is, and that is very difficult. The best thing is to say, okay, I put it on the shelf. I sleep on it. And at a certain point it becomes clear that each thing is telling you where it's really at. But that is what you where it's really at.

But that is what you know best yourself, because you know your entire life. And if you ask somebody else to interpret it, then that person only knows what you tell him. But if it is about a relationship that the so-called reader doesn't know anything about, then he can't make sense of it. But you can do that yourself. That can be a difficulty of doing each thing for somebody else.

And one thing I am absolutely certain of, and that is that the person who wants't ask the question has to go do the procedure, toss the coins or split the sticks. You can't do that, you have just like in tarot, querent has to draw the cards. You can shuffle them and lay them out, but the querent has to select the cards. Because the querent is the one who wants

the answer. So has to make the contact with the oracle and then the reader can be helpful. That is actually more like a counselor than anything else. Sounds like it's a very intimate individual experience. Yeah, absolutely.

You know, I've done some readings with some tarot cards before, was picking up like four people's energy in one reading. Oh, yeah. And so it got confusing because there were, you know, so many different messages that the person that was sitting in front of me getting the reading were thought were for her, but they weren't. They were for the people that were sitting next to her. Oh, yeah.

That gets confusing. Yeah. I think generally, when you consult the I Ching Oracle, you do it in a very quiet place. You relax, you have the question you want to ask very clear in your mind. And you consult it. And you can do that completely independently of anybody else. It's totally individual that was my question if you had to do anything to prepare you know some people go way over the top they're like oh we gotta save to the cards gotta knock them we gotta do all these things i do do some sort of though you know i do because like mandy said i mean i i feel like if you don't separate the energy between people it just keeps showing up the same stuff i'm like oh my gosh this is just mine and actually i have some decks that i'm trying to read for someone else i'm like shoot it just keeps

my cards keep showing up over and over and and i and i've actually even had to understand that about that deck like that deck is just for me i guess because it won't change for another person. And I've tried everything. I've researched it. I've tried putting crystals on top of it, putting it out in the moon, you know, whatever. It just wants to be mine. And the reason for that is

that as long as you're doing it, you're drawing the cards, it's you. The persoon moet het doen. De persoon moet de kaarten draaien, zodat je kan zitten zoals wij een videoconferentie, maar als die persoon de kaarten niet draait en dan je vertelt wat ze heeft gedraaid, dan zijn het niet haar kaarten, het zal jou zijn als je het moet doen, the cards and then tell you what she's drawn. It won't be her cards, it will be yours. If you have to do it, it will be yours. Well that's an interesting thing because you know the whole thing whether it's I Ching or Tarot, you're using what is called a random method to consult the

Oracle. So with the Tarot you're picking up blind a card from here and there, and with the I Ching you're tossing coins. And the reason for that is because the conscious mind, the conscious rational mind cannot access the oracle. It can't get into the oracle because the conscious mind can't directly access the subconscious. So the oracle is something that facilitates the communication between the conscious mind and the subconscious. So when you consult the oracle, the oracle gives you information about the future that is locked away in your subconscious. So the oracle is kind of a facilitator to give you knowledge about your personal future, kind of in a chronological sequence that's that's how we understand how how the

itching works and why you have to have a random method because you you just can't you can't see it yeah has the itching ever told you anything where you're like no this is a bad idea oh many many times many times you trusted and surrendered and followed it? Or how did you deal with that? Well, sometimes we were stubborn. And we said, well, should we go for this job? And the I Ching said, don't do it. It's not going to work.

But we said, okay, we're going to try anyway. And it didn't work. That kind of thing. And also, we've had many situations when we've been going through this world where the eating has told us look you've made a stupid mistake you've done the wrong thing folks you have to realize that so when you consult the oracle the oracle tells you what you're doing wrong what what you've done wrong, and then you start to learn from your mistakes and it takes a long time. In that sense, it's a kind of

friend. I always have seen it as a bit of a wise uncle who isn't there to criticize you, but is there to guide you and will always tell you the truth if you like it or not but from somebody that you start to really trust you will appreciate it sooner or later but in the beginning of course also because you don't always understand how it works. You go down many rabbit's holes. In hindsight, you say, yeah, but

Li Qing warned me that wouldn't work, but I didn't want to know, because the problem with doing the oracle for yourself is always that you have to get past your desires, your subjective desires.

You want it so much, and then the jig tells you, oh, no, that's nothing. And then you try it anyway, and yeah, nevertheless. You know, this reminds me of The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. Have you read The Alchemist? I haven't read it, actually, no. I never did. I should read it.

I haven't done a lot of reading recently because my eyesight is pretty bad listen to it the audible that's what i did but the alchemist that's this magical change isn't it or what yeah and it's a journey it's also a journey a magical journey a journey of change and following the signs there's lots of guides but it's a story about a boy and you know how he follows these signs and takes chances that he normally wouldn't and discovers much more what is important in life it's pretty amazing that's the magical journey yeah it's it's so important for people to experience that because that's when you realize that although you're living in a kind of concrete mundane world that actually the magic the magic of your life and your future is real it's something else so you're more than just being a person in this world. You're a soul passing through, you know, and you have almost an infinite future.

Thanks for recommending it. What I will do is I will get hold of the audio and listen to it. And I'll come back to you on that. That would be great. I'll let you know. Okay, so I have a quick question for you. A lot of people believe in something behind these cards. So for example, my cards, I feel like sometimes are guided by who I believe to be my God. Sometimes my brother will come in through

the cards. He passed away. His spirit will come come through do you believe that your higher self speaking it to you or is there is there god behind these cards that that's really interesting because as far as we understand it when you consult the oracle the itching oracle you are accessing your subconscious and your subconscious is an enormous repository of knowledge so it's the subconscious is a repository of knowledge particularly of the future so when you consult the oracle you access knowledge that's locked away inside your psyche but there's also another aspect to it and that is this whole notion of angels and guardian angels because the oracle gives you advice it gives you help it gives you guidance so it's almost as though it is a being a person from some other place some other. So our take is that there is a reality somewhere beyond this one

where there are angels or whatever who can reach out and help to guide you through the world. And so it's all the whole ancient idea about guardian angels really well and i also think about the layers of our lineages that live within us sometimes we don't think that deep but i mean like you're talking the subconscious mind we're tapping into that you know maybe don't you know the unknown that you don't even know but but it is there many generations before you. You know, this is living in your DNA. I mean, we don't just look like our ancestors.

We don't just carry their traits, right? And so I wonder how much that even comes to play. Well, I think that's an interesting point. Of course, you have human history, and we're all humans, and we're embedded in our present, past, and future histories. So, yeah, it must play into it. I don't really know much about that. Of course, you have the genetic aspect i think of course there it varies probably from person to person how much past ancestry influences your present life that must vary a lot from person to person

i think that it's a matter of choice i think you can choose to move on from the past or you can say no i want to keep with the past because it's good for me at this time in my life so i think it's it's an area where you can you can choose where you want to go you you can be free of the past to a certain extent honor. You know, honor even the hardships and the good. And I think if you, Joanna, being that Dutch strong woman, you have a lot of strong women in your ancestry, but then you have trauma, you have all these different things. Everything they went through, all good and bad, made us who we are today. I think it's a very interesting point you make. You can't ignore history at your peril. It's something you need to take very seriously.

What passed, not only in your present life, but in previous lives and previous ancestries, to what extent that's shaped to what you are right now. I think it's a good point. You also have points that perhaps a mistake that has been repeated through the generations, that you have to say the book stops here, I'm going to do it differently. One of the things that I myself experienced with generations, at least as far as from my parents' parents, especially on my father's side, to my parents, is that they wanted way too much influence on the marriage and in fact on whom you married also the influence went so far as the wrong partner was not being say promoted to say it gently then what you can choose to do

is say no I think this partner is good for me the work stops here I'm not playing that game anymore I'm not making that mistake I turn around to say I'm solidary with my partner that's my future and here I break with my past well that's an aspect of it but that is where you have to break with it. A lot of things are worthwhile to carry on with. That depends. And I bet all of the women before you, even though they made that choice, they are proud that you didn't because they just wish they could have. Yeah, that's great indeed. That's where the rebel comes in and overturns the apple cart and says, OK, everything's going to change now. Yeah. If our listeners, including myself, were to actually I already purchased your book. I got it on Amazon. But do they need to buy anything else? Where do they get these coins? Where do they get these sticks? My experience is that if you want to do it with sticks, before I had the kind of male foil sticks,

you can also get a packet of wooden barbecue skewers, count to 50, set them aside and say those I put in the elastic band or ribbon around them and say, those I set aside for I Ching. By setting them aside, you dedicate them. That's enough. I think that the original milfoil sticks, that there are shops that you can get them on the internet or in a new age shop, the kind of shop where you buy crystals, incense, etc. I don't think you absolutely need that.

As far as coins are concerned, you can buy Chinese oracle or Feng Shui coins that are generally coins with a hole in the middle. My Chinese oracle or Feng Shui coins, they are generally coins with a hole in the middle, and use those. But my experience, I don't use those coins. I use three clean. I use one point, but they're coins of one pound, they're all the same denomination.

The idea is that the coins are uniform and that they have a clear head or tail. And use those. You dedicate them, you set them aside, and you don't use them for anything else anymore. And these coins, I like it to have them fresh, so newly minted, so as little circulation as possible. And that's it. You can use any coin as long as they can easily be tossed the uniform and they're clean. Reminds me of the bag of bones that the voodoo would throw out the bones and then read them and we had a guest on who had lived in africa and he went and saw this great shaman lady and she did that and i looked into the bones you can buy those bones and they're just like bones of different

animals some of them were like i was like oh my gosh, you can buy them on like Amazon and have the bones delivered. That's amazing. So just to clarify, because, you know, us humans like to make everything way more difficult than it really is. I could go out over the next couple months and collect some twigs from trees

and even use those as the sticks, correct? Absolutely. As long as you use a random method, because that's the only way you can access the oracle. They shouldn't be too thick, then they're difficult to handle. Imagine you have to have 50 twigs, one you put aside and then 49 you have to hold up in your hands and then split so they shouldn't be too thick and you cut them all the same lengths so that you have a bunch okay doesn't matter because my I Ching sticks are also not all uniform size but if they are too thick they're difficult to handle but the barbecue skewers you know the ones that are about 12 inches or so long these barbecue skewers have made of wood they also do it

okay you also have like the ruins where it was just rocks you know i mean there's all from all over the world you had all of these tools of divination, all of these ways to connect, simple too, really. It's really so ancient, isn't it? It's amazing. You have even people, I don't have much feeling for it, because you have nothing in your hands, who use it, who put something on the internet about I Ching and use a computer randomizer. The problem is, then you say, okay, you've got the randomizer ID, but you don't have the personal contact. The oracle is designed with the method with the coins or the method with the sticks. That is how from the ancient Chinese tradition, I Ching works with these two methods. But the general principles throughout all the oracles is the randomizer. In that sense astrology is something

else that works with the heavenly bodies and calculation. That's a different kind of thing. But oracles in general, there's always some kind of randomizer, some kind of random method. Because that is what bypasses the intellect, brings you to the subconscious. And in that subconscious, from that subconscious state, you receive what comes from elsewhere. What is the knowledge that is inside you and the knowledge that comes from elsewhere. But that is where you're open to it.

You guys are awesome where can we find your book where can our listeners pick up a copy of this book the book itself always say have a look at the website of our publisher that is www.joehuntpublishing.com When you then type in

the title of our book in the search box, I Ching, I Ching Oracle is already enough, but the full name is The I Ching Oracle, A Guide Through the Human Maze. Then on that website, you can see some information about the book

and a very short biography of the authors. And if you click on the buy button, you can get it, by the way, you can get a paperback or an e-book. You click on the buy button. That buy button gives you a choice to go to Amazon or to Barnes & Noble or to Indiebook.com and I think Hive.com. But you can also go to your local

bookstore. It is registered. It has an ISBN number so they will also be able to order it for you if you rather go through the bookstore we hope of course that local bookstores that have a bit of an assortment a bit more specifically mind body spirit that they will stock it and if they then are clever enough to stock coins and sticks as well and you know what speaking of your publisher he's become a dear friend of ours and we love Gavin and we've had

Gavin on as a guest and yeah we just have such a soft spot for that man and so thank you so much gavin for sending these two beautiful souls to us today yeah we appreciate you guys joining us been such a pleasure to meet you well thank you very much it's been great to be with you and i will listen to the alchemist and come back to you. And now it's time for Break That Shit Down. I would say have the courage to find your own paths and trust that however difficult the times may be, you will find your way through it. And you will find and you should trust

to find the meaning of what you're going through. We're all here on the path to learn keep learning keep going stay open and be not afraid to change

Beautiful Yeah and really I can only repeat there what has always been uppermost in our minds is that this world is an arena in which the purpose of our lives is to develop and grow as individuals, but then that is real, authentic individuals, free, free of any conditioning or societal pressure.

Oh, beautiful. Well, you guys have been absolutely wonderful. Thank you for joining us from your cellar today. And again, thank you for just sharing your knowledge, your wisdom, your authenticity, and your lives with us. Well, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to be with you both. You too. Thank you.

Bye. Bye-bye. Bye. Thanks for being with us today. We hope you will come back next week if you like what you hear don't forget to rate like and subscribe thank you we rise to lift you up thanks for listening