Sense of Soul - Awaken to Experience

Episode Date: September 18, 2020

Mande and Shanna welcomed Christiane Michelberger , she is a retired physician and psychoanalyst.     Today Christiane mentors those who are seeking awakening through  dialogues and groups. She uses the teachings of the Buddhist model of the Ten Fetters, which she says are the ten assumptions about experience which cover up what truly is. “Imagine, you saw the true nature of everything. There is no sense of personal identity left whatsoever, not even a trace”.  Check out her free introductory course ‘The Key to Awakening’, you’ll see that you already have everything you need to awaken. www.findawakening.com Also check out our website www.mysenseofsoul.com  

Welcome to the Sense of Soul podcast. We are your hosts, Shanna and Mandy. Grab your coffee, open your mind, heart, and soul. It's time to awaken. Today on Sense of Soul, we are so excited about our guest, Christiana Meshelberger. She is a retired physician and psychoanalyst who through her journey of seeking the truth and breast cancer was catapulted into her own awakening. She now helps spiritual seekers discover the awakened state. And we appreciate you taking time out of your evening to be with us. Thank you so much for the warm welcome.

I'm so happy to be here with you two sassy girls. Yeah, a little sassy. And you join us from Germany, and that's why we said evening, so it's seven o'clock in Germany right now. And Mandy and I are enjoying our coffee, so time difference. But Christiana, could you please tell us a little bit about your journey and about the suffering that you went through, which led you to where you are today? So I was on a spiritual journey from my mid-20s on, and a dead motorcyclist was brought in after an accident. I found out on his identity card that he was just as old as I was at that time. I thought, I'm no different to him. I drive this road every single day to work where he had this accident.

I thought, and I don't even know who I am. And that just sparked the quest. I didn't know what to do. I wasn't spiritual at that point. I was just off the university enjoying myself, newlywed. And it was like, no, this wasn't in my realm of thinking, really. So it really hit me already there. In the newspaper, there was an ad for Zen introduction.

So I did Zen meditation for many many years I really liked it with that came some deep insights of like everything being one or there being no separate self but it always passed and then everything unfortunately was back to normal because this insight felt really beautiful. And I thought I'd like to have that always. But I just didn't. I couldn't hold on to it. And then they always say, throw it away like your old pair of shoes because it won't come back. Then I went on to different teachers, tried different things, ended in Theravada Buddhism, which is a very early form,

but also very traditional and dogmatic. I studied the scriptures of the Buddha, but I didn't really understand them. I think nobody does, actually, because it's really hard to understand because he said everything to be taken literally and everybody thinks, oh, this must have a deep meaning. Right. So I kind of tried to get ahead, but basically I'd given up on awakening. I thought this ain't going to happen. I don't know how. I did everything I could think of. And then one day, I was just one year retired. I was diagnosed with breast cancer. That threw me into a loop.

I freaked out. I was so afraid. And panic arose all the time. I was basically continuously in a state of panic. I learned to imbibe the very first moments in the morning when I just had woken up. Eyes still closed and everything felt fine. Still in the hospital.

Nothing bad had ever happened. And everything was okay. I had no pain. And then all of a sudden, the knowledge downloaded from the cloud i have breast cancer and then i was again in this state of freak out this journey didn't bring me anywhere i'm spiritually sleepwalking i, and I said, this has to come to an end. I need to see this now.

I ended my very exotic identity as a spiritual seeker. It really ended in the hospital. I felt like I was turning my back to it. And okay, I didn't know what to do. I had really exhausted my means. At that time, I was translating a book, Life on Purpose, by Brad Swift, a very good book. I can highly recommend it if people are looking for their life's purpose. I translated it because I found this has to be available for Germans too. It's too good to not be here. I had another translator. She had translated it into Italian and one day on my Facebook thread

she had liked a blog post by somebody the awakened dreamers the blog that said the body is not ready for awakening and I thought oh that sounds kind of interesting I might like it so I clicked on it and in this blog post was a link to a platform which is called Liberation Unleashed, where they guide seekers to seeing that there is no self in dialogues. And I thought, oh, okay. So I read dialogues. They are public. Everybody can read them.

And there was always this point where all of a sudden something had happened and the dialogue would change. I couldn't follow. It was like a Zen poem. It was very beautiful, but I didn't understand any longer what they were talking about. And I thought, something is definitely happening here. And so I thought, well, I might try this. I researched the background of the founders and thought, I don't want to get into some stuff that's somewhat weird. I've had enough of that. I had an Indian guru and everything.

I've gone through everything. And then I got frightened. I thought, whoosh, if this really works, do I want it? Do I really want this? Seeing that there is no self, how do I function then? What happens? Will I go mad or can I still mind my daily business? What about my partner? I have to think this over. And in the end, I thought, I always landed on my feet, no matter how weird the stuff was I did. And so I decided to do it. Now, when you enter a dialogue on this platform, you have to reply daily. And this is really important because the momentum is very important. I thought, I'm facing radiation, so I don't know.

In any case, no matter how far the cancer had grown, I downloaded a book with dialogues on Kindle. You can buy it on Amazon. It's called The Gateless Gate Crashers. Gateless gate, this is an expression for one stage of awakening. I just read the dialogues, mostly in waiting areas, because before you have radiation, you have to have checkups of all kinds that you're all right.

And they measure everything so the dose is right. And it was the most amazing time in medical waiting rooms I've ever had. I was so fascinated by these questions. And they were from the very early time of this platform. They were very basic without much experiments. They were really just looking for the I. What is it? What does it? The questions were really good and then I thought, it looks like the eye is just something like a computer virus. Like seeing you, the eye is added. I am seeing you or hearing your voice or my neighbor clapping the door. I am hearing my neighbor clapping the door.

I am speaking. I thought this is really a computer virus. It's a Trojan that gets attached to everything. Then the next question was, I was then at home sitting on my couch here on a Sunday after lunch. And the question asked, is there any you in a physical form or shape? And I thought, what a silly question, of course not. And while I was thinking that, a shift happened, a very noticeable shift. it felt like I was moved to the side I'm still not sure whether I moved or not and everything just stopped the whole world stopped

everything was still completely still I saw or I saw you can't say that but it became very clear that there is no self and also why I hadn't seen it because it's just in front of everybody's nose it's not hidden well it's hidden in plain sight that's the trick and so I thought yeah got it and then I went out because everything felt so vast I couldn't stay in the apartment we have a park just next door and I went there and the colors were really psychedelic and very intense and everything seemed to be super 3d with depth and shades and quite amazing to watch I had to cross the road and a motorcyclist passed by and he had, yes, greetings from heaven. And he had removed his mufflers and it was really noisy. And usually I'm annoyed with that, but I wasn't annoyed. It was just a short noise and it was gone. And I was very surprised that I wasn't annoyed. That was so amazing. And then I

just had a long walk along the river. Then I came home and said to my partner, hey, I don't exist. And she said, sure you do. What are you talking about? Right. And then I realized I cannot talk to anybody about this. Anybody I know, at least. We've been there before. Mandy and I would tell each other things, other people, and they're like, oh, she's cuckoo. We considered ourselves very lucky to have one another during this awakening. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And that's why we started our Sense of Soul podcast for people that don't have someone else to talk to. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and vulnerability around your story with breast cancer. And are you cancer free today? I'm cancer free., yes, and just out of the regular aftercare.

I'm so glad that you're doing well and that you're healthy. Thank you. If you don't mind, today we want to just start out really simple. What is self? Self lives on the Selmery-Almer Center. It's just an assumption we have that it exists. The thing is, we have so many words for all kinds of things and non-things. All words are concepts, right? This is a lipstick. But the word lipstick isn't a lipstick.

You can call it anything. It just happens to have the word lipstick and every woman knows what it is and I hope every man too. We tend to believe that every word we use is a name for something that is actually there, that exists, that can be heard or seen or touched or smelled or tasted,

that can be experienced with our senses. But we have tons of words that don't, like Santa, and even words like town. Town is a concept. You can't see a town. First of all, you wouldn't know where the town starts without the sign. Town consists of houses, roads, people living there, cars, shops, churches, whatever. These things can be seen, but the town itself, the word is a concept. And the self is the same. We can't just say I or me.

It's a concept. And that fact lies clearly in front of us. And that's why we are so much struggling of trying to create a good self. Because the self, all illusions, keep falling apart continuously. And they need enormous maintenance to be kept up all the time. So then, who are you? Right. That's a very good question question i wouldn't be able to answer it i don't experience that i'm a buddhist teacher which would be the closest description of what i do i don't experience being a woman or living all these experiences are no longer there. It's very hard to describe it.

It's a space of unknowing and at the same time, a very quiet and full space and a very sweet space to be in. I always say it's filled with joy, love. It's one atom of joy and one atom of love that makes the molecule that vibrates in there. On the journey to awakening, seeing that there is no me doing all the things and thinking and deciding and acting, it's just the first step. In the fifth step, it is clearly seen that there is no world outside of ourselves which we experience. That is easily accessible to logic. When we look at something, we don't see a tree. I have a tree opposite of me or a lamp.

The light, the eye can only see light waves. It can only pick up light waves, not trees. The light waves are then transformed into very little electrical currents, small electrical currents in the retina, which then runs to the brain. And there the picture of a tree lamp or whatever is created. So whatever we experience is always only what is created in our brains. We do not experience something outside. We cannot. By the way, we are built.

And we can never stick our head out of our own experience to see, like, what's out there? What am I experiencing what gets translated into a tree house an elevator it's interesting when you described the feeling of the love the molecule and how you were explaining that feeling it was how I felt when I died because I had a near-death experience. Oh, right. Yes. Yes. That's how I felt. There was no self. This felt love. Now my question is, I've always thought of that as losing my ego because when I died, I was just soul. I was clearly just my soul. I was energy. I was just me. I had no ego. I had no consciousness. Would you say that ego had to have died within you to accept that there was no self?

I would like to ask a question about the death experience. For me, the ego and the self are synonymous. You can say the ego has to die. All religions say this, die before you die. Christianity has this literally in the Bible. In your near-death experience, did you experience a separate identity as a soul, or was it more an energy state? An energy state. Mm- yeah yeah why do you think i still could see things in color right and that yeah my brother also had a near-death experience and he was always wondering about the seeing most as well and that is why i'm not sure that we are actually experiencing through our senses

i didn't hear anything with my ears it was telepathic but i could see things but but i wasn't seeing them with my eyes i was just energy that's very interesting yes father really watched he was it was after energy. That's very interesting, yes. My brother really watched, it was after surgery, and he got resuscitated and the doctor said, fuck, he's dying. He heard them all said, and he told them afterwards. He saw them, he had an out-of-body experience? Yes, right. He was above and he heard everything. Really yeah, really, really angry that they brought him back. Because it felt so beautiful. He said, oh, why did they get me back?

So I feel like you have been able to do what so many people in the world would long to do. And that is you're able to be here on earth and experience the spiritual world and what I experienced here. Yes, I wouldn't even say the spiritual world. There is nothing substantial to hold on to. There's nothing like I don't experience the spiritual world. It's just being. In my mind, I've always wanted to separate the two right and it's always there it's it's only covered up by the layers of thought by all these assumptions we read into experience basically and when the crucial assumptions which are not so many it's just seven when they are seen through when you see that sometimes doesn't exist,

then this energy state is there. It's always there. Then it's uncovered. And then it's what's left. Could the interpretation also be right about your near-death experiences that these layers fell away and this always present state was uncovered. Could that be right? That could be right. From your experience? Absolutely.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. You know, I have the feeling now that I cannot die. For me, there is no death because what can die died already. In fact, it's very interesting because two years ago I had uterine cancer. I had another cancer. And that was such a different experience because my gynecologist just told me

it was very unexpected to me because the surgeon who had done the sample excision had said, no, there is nothing. I'm experienced at this. There's surely nothing. And when I came a week later to check whether everything had healed, she said, we have to talk. And I thought, what? I was ready for fear to come up again because emotions, you can only feel emotions. There's no other way to deal with them.

But nothing came up. It was just, oh, okay. I'm a slow track changer we were just about to pack our travel trailer because we live in a travel trailer half of the year and so it was like okay that's off now now something else but I didn't know what to do so I just asked okay so what do I do now where do I go and then we just talked it through and the whole surgery and everything was like that. It was very smooth, very swift. And afterwards, I thought I hadn't suffered a scratch. It was so amazing. Is that what you mean by stress can come to an end? Yes, absolutely.

And it's not something I did. It just didn't happen. I wasn't affected. Just, oh, how inconvenient right now. Yeah, you're like, this is not good timing. That's all. Do people have to go through trauma to yearn for spiritual awakening? Do people have to have these tough times in order to seek it?

I would say it differs. Some people have had enormous trauma and wanted suffering. That doesn't always go well because I now insist that people have trauma therapy. If they have had trauma, they remember because with the thinning of the assumption of the self, defense mechanisms also weaken. They are somehow attached to these assumptions and all the stuff that was suppressed successfully to survive and to have a kind of decent life comes up. And we had several people who had such a hard time because then it's really hard to manage. Fortunately, at that point everybody is very experienced in dealing with their emotions that's part of the

work. They can deal with it but they have to be psychologically, mentally stable for that. Where does awareness come from? Yeah that's the kind of pet word in the spiritual scene. Awareness, yes it's another concept it's just like consciousness just look for it what is awareness what is it made of is it something that can be actually experienced or is it something that exists only in thoughts basically i do not teach anything everybody has to look for themselves. Does this exist? Or is it only something I'm thinking of? And if they're only thinking of it, it's just a word. Could you maybe do like experience like a quick, maybe one of your things that you did in

your workbook? Something to look whether there is a me, right? Yes. Okay okay so lift your palm up in front of you your hand up with the palm up and then turn it down and turn it up again and down and up again and I'll keep the palm turning and watch like a hawk what is doing this what is turning the hand you don't engage thinking but you actually look for proof like a detective looks for proof somebody is there or not and he just looks is there a trace of the me doing this? Where is it? Outside of any concept,

the concept wouldn't be presented in front of the court. You can't say, I think it's the brain sending signals. No. They say, what signals? Show them. Right? It's really about watching directly what is happening there what is going on what is actually experienced apart from everything what i think about the experience that is always the central question what is actually experienced feeling of my wrist movement. Right. The feeling of the air between my fingers when I

move it. Okay. You've got me thinking very deeply in the moment. This is a very deep exercise as simple as it is. Absolutely. So in your key to awakening you do what's called a solution. So can you explain this? So the solution is it's not possible to see what moves the hand, to experience that. Yes, there can be mental images like an animation. Aha, there must be what I learned that there are electrical impulses moving the hand but what is actually experienced is just the sense as you said of the wrist turning the little tension that comes when you turn the hand maybe the air between the fingers and that's it yeah right and you know um when you do that daily and gather more evidence, it's like at one point the scale just tips over and then it's clearly seen in this kind of shift. Shifts are always different for

every single person. It's quite amazing. So they will be very clear. It will be just in front of them that there is no me. So everyone's awakening is different, different timing. What is an awakening to you? How would you describe an awakening? I would describe awakening as returning to what is actually experienced and leaving the thoughts aside, but you don't leave them actually aside. When it is seen that there is no me, it just doesn't get added any longer oh i like that yes only like two days later i couldn't even remember how it had felt to experience in me that was so weird it was like how did i feel before that i couldn't remember it was gone is that the death that you talked about

when you said that you felt that you had already experienced death? No, that's not yet the full death. The self has several aspects and five aspects. Some will still be left, like wanting and not wanting. That's something that the self seems to have. We want this and we don't want that, and we keep pushing and pulling at experience all the time to feel better or at least less worse less bad that is the next step which is the very emotional step where people learn to deal with their emotions where all reactivity ceases. We respond to things, and usually more bravely than before,

because now there is no emotional involvement any longer. But we don't react. All this emotional upheaval around something just goes. Okay, like you did when you received the information from the doctor. Right. Then there is just no reaction so it sounds like and please correct me if i'm wrong it sounds like the ultimate mindfulness and being present in just an experience without labeling it without putting our thoughts into it. It's just being and experiencing. Right.

It's just being and experiencing and being now. In the beginning, I felt like I was caught in the arc of trust of now. I couldn't move anywhere any longer. I couldn't go in the past. And I can't go in the future. I still can't do that. It hasn't come back. It's like, oh, no, I can't do that. It hasn't come back. It's like, oh no, I can't do anything. I

can't will anything. What do I do? So let me ask you a question. I was having a conversation with my husband about this the other day, and he has to plan a lot of things. He really has to forward think into the future for his job. He said, I don't understand how I can be present in this moment right here and still be successful in my life as a self because I have to plan ahead. Sure. I plan ahead too. I have to do that. I work with OKRs, objective key results. And when I plan my OKRs for the next three months, I sit down and plan them now. We always do everything now. We cannot do anything at any future, but it's not that I have to. We cannot be anywhere else than now. It's not possible. It's not humanly possible. There are some people who do time travel, I heard, but otherwise, it's not possible.

Who know who those people are? Let us know. I'd love to have time travelers on our podcast. Actually, I only heard of them. I haven't met one yet. Well, you do. Send them our way. Yeah, I will. So what are the keys to awakening?

People need to be really curious about the truth and about what is actually going on. Curiosity and having this researcher spirit, you know i want to find out and i want to really find out not just think about it but find out what truly is that's the most important part do you want to talk about the fetters yeah i have to be honest i didn't even know what the heck that word meant what is a better first uh feathers like i had to google the meaning i was like i'd never heard of that i don't know why the word that brought me on the index in english internet provider because he thinks my site is about bondage those people who are with this provided i can't follow my links to my website i don't get that oh my god

the definition that comes up is chains so right well that would be an experience of course the fetters are a concept as well um with the fetters it's because they fetter our ability to see clearly you can call them basically anything basically they are just assumptions about the experience we have like the assumption that i'm experiencing that there is something that forces me to react or that i as a subject am separate from the object and we are separated through borders and everything is separate from each other this is also read into experience or that there is a world outside which i'm experiencing substantial permanent in time and space that is

another assumption after that only a very subtle sense of i am is left but a very basic sense so the subtle sense that i am that was created first that is ready to experience because it is so hard to not have anything to hold on and you can feel that all the time this grasping is so incredibly strong I have something you know to know knowing wanting to know something for sure is very strong I had that for months that I always wanted to know knowing wanting to know something for sure is very strong I had that for months that I always wanted to know something in my mind would invent problems and then try to solve them and find an explanation and it was driving

me nuts there is a certain step in the inquiry where this is very strong and the fetus are simply assumptions they're different assumptions and we address them in a certain sequence that the buddha invented because it makes the most sense and it's the easiest for people to use it that way and so these fetters are believed to kind of hold you back and they kind of shackle you to suffering is that correct right right or they are the layers on top of experience which have to be removed one after the other until there's only experiencing and being so what are the 10 fetters so i will explain them the way they develop because that's easiest to understand.

Okay. So the Buddha says you're born unfettered, but with tendencies. The tendency is that we want to feel good. That's a very basic tendency, which needs to be fulfilled for children. We want to feel safe, secure. our surrounding needs to be predictable otherwise we cannot develop healthy in a psychological way and so since there is nothing like that this that there is nothing like that has to be ignored. These are very impersonal forces, which I experienced on the path. It's very interesting.

And a very strong restlessness sets in. And that looks like a hungry ghost for something to stand on, to hold onto, something to know for sure, something to rely on. And nothing, nothing can be found. It wanders around and nothing can be found.

And in the end, out of despair, it simply invents something. And that is the first subtle sense of me. It's a very basic sense of I am, I exist. And that gives the first ground to stand on. After that, the subtle sense of I exist is equipped with the faculty, the assumed faculty of perception. Now there are experiences all the time. It is assumed that I am perceiving this, that there is a way, a thing in me that registers all this, that translates this, that the outside is well,

that it's permanent, when I'm gone, it's still there, and when I return, it's there in the same way, well, that doesn't happen always, always but and this is what happens in the next step it's the seventh letter then in the sixth these experiences that are still without borders are now experienced as being separate from each other by creating a subject. A subject is the central point of perspective. It's like when you have an image, there is always a perspective where everything is flowing to all the information. When you have a painting, for example, the perspective is always an important point. And this is the same. It's like we're at the center of the stage and everything happens around us and the information is flowing towards us.

By assuming the subject, borders are created and we feel separate from everything. That is when the separation sets in. Interesting. Yeah. And then we want these borders or we don't want them.

And that is a very strong thing. Yeah. That's actually the longest step in the inquiry because it's our likes and dislikes govern our experience and what we do to such a degree. It's unbelievable. Yeah. Totally dominated by it.

Yeah. It's really like a burning fire so we want this we don't want that but we notice that we don't succeed all the time and so we go to the next step we invent higher powers gods all kinds of stuff that we call to in a cry for help. Give me this. Don't take this away. Don't do that. I want that. No, not that. Right?

Jesus said, don't pray like this. This is not what prayer is. Don't ask for this and that. It's not a shop you buy in. This doesn't work, though, all the time, as we all know. Then doubt sets in. And in the end, the sense is created that I am in control. Now it's no longer God.

Now I am the God. I'm in control. I control what I think. I manifest. I control what I do. I decide everything. I act. I experience.

And that seems to be a very stable, substantial thing that can make sure I feel good. Feeling good. Feeling good, wanting to feel good is really the Trojan in this that creates all this. With that, all the layers are created. And we start then on the top to peel them away. And the top is then first the sense of self that I'm doing, I'm in control, I'm deciding'm deciding I'm acting that's the first step then so Shanna and I have come to a place in our life where we've learned that what we trust

is what we experience only what we know is true is only what we experience. That's beautiful. It's very beautiful. Now, who is trusting? Who is trusting? Who is trusting the experience? What does that mean? Oh, my gosh. I was not like, oh, my gosh. My mind is like...

This is really something when you think about it, you just tie your mind to knots. Can I ask some really basic yes or no questions? Mm-hmm. Do you believe in soul and ego? No. Do you believe there's a God? No.

Do you believe in aliens? I'd like to meet one. Do you believe in energy? Believing in energy is maybe not the right word. Energy can be felt or there can be something felt that can have the name energy. It can be experienced. It can be experienced, right. What does the word experienced mean to you?

That's a very good question. It is anything that is not stillness. Because my main experience is stillness or peace. And when anything else comes into that, that is experience. Stillness and peace is also experience, but I would say that's like the baseline. I like that. I get that. It's so hard for our conditioned minds to be able to wrap around just experience you know our brains are there to keep us safe that's the main thing and so when something new comes along the alarm rings because it might be dangerous i had such a lot of fear on the journey to awakening because my alarm bell rings really early. It's so amazing. I have so many people when we work in desire and a will, which is about reactivity, they work with road rage.

When they no longer react, nobody cuts them off any longer. Nobody falls them close on the bumper. It's so amazing. Isn't that funny? I had somebody who reported such incidences each day and now he hasn't experienced them for a year. Because when you shift, the world shifts. Right. It's hard to function in the real world in the way it is,

busy, busy, busy, here and there, and be so present and so mindful all day. It's very difficult. Yeah, if you have to do the work all the time of being mindful, it certainly is very difficult. I don't try to be mindful or present. I just can't do anything else. It's just the default now.

Well, what's interesting is i took some mushrooms for two weeks and that's what i was like i was a guinea pig so it was my experience i did the mushrooms and i journaled for two weeks first of all hold on let's explain so people don't think you're tripping out on your mind for two weeks straight. It was micro dosing, which is very little amounts. I could not, it was impossible for me to go in the future. I could think about the past, but I couldn't stay there very long at all. I was very focused right here. There was a lot of creativity in those moments. I experienced freaking everything. I could read you out of the journal. As I'm writing, I'm feeling the breeze.

I'm hearing the dog. I hear the leaves. I mean, it was impossible almost not to, but I wasn't overwhelmed. I've never been good at multitasking successfully. I can do one thing or the other. I'm going to be successful at it. I've always been that way. On the mushrooms, I successfully was experiencing many things all at once. And at peace with it, all of my senses were involved, even my creativity so i find that interesting i was tapping into some buddhist teachings there's something well the brain simply functioned differently you let go of it better

yes i'm pretty sure that what we basically do with the inquiry which i'm doing with people is we are shifting the experience out of the dominance of the left hemispheric experience more into the right hemispheric experience. You probably have read about this woman who had the left hemispheric stroke. Her left half left brain didn't function any longer and she had the most beautiful experiences. When I worked at Children's Hospital, I had a student who had up to 100 seizures a day. Every time he had a seizure, he was left a little bit more paralyzed in his body. So they went in and took out the entire left side of his brain and put in a shunt. I was very concerned about what he was going to come back like. It was very interesting to see that when

he did join our classroom again, his right brain really made up for a lot of his left brain. I actually did my dissertation on this hemispherectomy. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's really very amazing how much one side can take over if needed. I mean, we only use so little of our brain. There's still some potential. Yeah. I'm struggling with one thing.

Did this concept, this teaching, this awakening that you went through, didn't it help you self-improve? Well, if there was something to improve, it would. But some clients say that to me, that they were struggling so much for feeling worthy and to better themselves. And that all falls away because the experience feels good and very full, though it's empty of things,

but it feels very full. There is no need to better anything. This need goes away totally. Would you say there's no need for self-love? Right. For self-love? There is love. There is no need for it.

There is love. So just being content with what is. You don't need to be more. You don't need more love. You are love. Right, right. How would your partner say this has shifted you personally? She said, you're a much nicer person, but that isn't who I married.

So before, were you like smashing beer cans against your forehead and picking bar fights? Not really, but it was quite temperamental oh gosh um because you know you do have a very calming contentness about you have you always been that way no not at all not at all i loved what you said at the beginning. It's all in plain sight. That's funny to me. It's hidden in plain sight. It really is. And that's why it's so hard to find. Why do I feel like Buddhist teachings are like a total, and excuse my language, but like a mindfuck.

I feel like it's like they're telling you two opposite things that mean one thing at the same time. I don't know. It's like a riddle. You know, how I became very fascinated and curious of the Buddhist teachings. I fell in love with Thich Nhat Hanh and his teachings. Mindfulness, just being able just to be. Because that was very difficult for my brain. Yes. The left hemisphere is the thinking hemisphere and it cannot be mindful that's the right hemisphere so the left

side has to step back a bit it has to be there otherwise we couldn't function we couldn't even speak because the words come from the left side but But let's step a little bit back and just allow the other side too. Do you have an example, Mandy? It's the original instruction that Buddha gave. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed. Why is that so hard for my brain to wrap around?

Well, yeah, because the wording is very complicated. Actually, the better translation is, but it's no longer available. It's no longer a translation that they consider to be right. In the seen, only the scene simply the scene and simply the hurt and simply the touched and simply the tasted and simply the smelled and that's all simply experiencing and then there is no added thoughts to it and then there is no you here there, there, or yonder. And that is the end of suffering. That's the simple version of it. Simply the seen, the heard, touched.

The experience. The experience, right. I think that humans have forgotten to just experience. We're always trying to attach things to it and edit it. I love how you say that. Shanna and I would normally hop off of this podcast and call each other like, holy crap, she was amazing. So now let's go dive into research for the next 20 hours and ignore our family because we have to figure this all out. After we get off with you

today, we should not go do that. We should just go sit and experience. And just listen to the sounds that are present. Is the hearer and the heard or just hearing? Okay. I am curious. Oh, Mandy, even though you may want to sit with it, I do. I want to read more and I want to learn more and understand. You do the left hemispheric research and Mandy does the right hemispheric research. You will find there is not much on the fetus in the internet. I do have a website, as you know about it. You will find general explanations with, you know, that after which Feta, how many lives you supposedly have or not. But there isn't much about the concrete work in it.

It's lost, unfortunately. Well, will you share your website with our listeners so that they can at least get some information in the research that you've done. Yeah, sure. It's findingawakening.com. You know, I love on your website how you say, on this journey, I will not teach you anything. I will not give you anything. I will ask you questions that help you explore your own experience. I love that. This is very enlightening to us. We have a lot

of guests on all the time where we're like, oh, we know what you're talking about. But you were like, what in the heck is she talking about? I love that you took me on nevertheless. You've been such an amazing guest. So thank you. Wonderful interview. Thank you for the experience. Thank you. It was really lovely. So what was it in your intuition that at the very beginning that made you think that we were sassy? Well, I looked at your website and I thought,

you, these ladies are really juicy. Yeah. This is the energy that comes across. I liked it. Yeah. We can't be right. Your experience on our website was right. You tell our listeners what you offer on your website. Yes. Unfortunately, I'm fully booked, but I offer them that they can write their name on a waiting list. And I will email the waiting list when a place for guidance is free. And also, I'm very fortunate now that another lady who is really very clear too, and she is starting to guide too. So there is somebody just jumping in right now to help.

Thank you so very much. It was really fun. Yes, it was. I agree. You can just call me Christiana. Christiana? Is it Meckelberger? Michelberger. Michelberger. But you can say Meckelberger. That's totally fine. I say we just jump on into this. I'm going to go ahead and introduce you. And I hope that I don't swatter your name, but I'm going to practice it for a minute. Christiana Mechlenberger. Mechlenberger. Mechlenberger. Oh, Michael. Just say Michael Berger.

Okay. All right. Mechlenberger. So right. Michelin Berger. So, yeah, quite close. Why is that so hard for us? Because our mouth and the tongue move very differently. Yeah. Michelin Berger. Say it again.

Michel Berger. Oh, like Michelle. Right, right. Right, Michel Berger. Okay. All Michelle. Right, right, right. Michelle Berger. Okay. All right. Well, here we go.

Let's give it a shot. Today on Sense of Soul, we are so excited about our guest, Christiane. Christiane. Michelle Berger. Thanks for being with us today we hope you will come back next week if you like what you hear don't forget to rate like and subscribe thank you we rise to lift you up thanks for listening