Sense of Soul - Awaken With the Enneagram

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

Today on Sense of Soul we have Nhien Vuong. A Stanford Lawyer turned Unity minister, I am passionate about nurturing sacred spaces for Enneagram-informed contemplation and transformation. For the past 22 years, she’s been studying and teaching the Enneagram in private and public, secular and spiritual contexts around the globe. A church minister for 5 years, she then left church to found Evolving Enneagram, so I could offer transformational Enneagram teachings beyond church walls. She’s now a Certified Somatic Enneagram facilitator as well as a certified Enneagram professional through the ATA Enneagram. As an IEA Accredited Professional with Distinction, she’s had the honor of presenting at international conferences and offering contemplative Enneagram retreats around the globe. Her new book, The Enneagram of the Soul, A 40-Day Spiritual Companion for the 9 Types, is a guide to your spiritual journey of transformation using the Enneagram, it was inspired by her over two decades of inner and outer work with the Enneagram. Nhien provides a path to wholeness for the self, enabling the reader to be steered gently yet firmly away from the trap of solely identifying with their personality type, so they can live more fully and more from their divine nature. http://evolvingenneagram.com www.senseofsoulpodcast.com

Hey Soulseekers, it's Shanna. Journey with me to discover how people around the world awaken to their true sense of soul. Now go grab your coffee and open your mind, heart and soul. It's time to awaken. And today on Sons of Soul, I have Reverend Nian Wong. Nian went from being the Stanford lawyer turned unity minister and now a certified somatic enneagram facilitator, teacher and founder of Evolving Enneagram facilitator, teacher, and founder of Evolving Enneagram. She's been studying the enneagram for the past 22 years. She has had the honor of presenting at international conferences and

offering contemplative enneagram retreats globally. And she's here to tell us about her new book, The Enneagram of the Soul, a 40-day spiritual companion for the nine types. So please welcome Nian. Thank you so very much, Nian, for coming on Sense of Soul. I appreciate your book and your wisdom that you're going to bring our listeners today and learn more about the Enneagram. Yes, I'm so excited to be here and to share. I live and breathe this stuff. Well, I'm going to be your student today. And I'd love to start off just by sharing with the listeners

how you came into this journey. So, wow, how far back do I go? So I feel like I was born asking why. I was basically born asking the question of like, why do we exist? Like, what's the purpose of life? What's the meaning of life? And my parents, I was born into a family

where nobody even talked about spirituality or religion. It was really interesting, but my parents are Buddhist, but philosophically Buddhist. I know, so very different from my own journey, but they never talked about it. But I was like that weird kid, you know, I'd go to my own journey, but they never talked about it. But I was like that weird kid, you know, I'd go to the public library and get every book I could find. I mean on astrology, on the occult, anything that would like help to explain why am I here. In my early years, like books were my closest friends, right?

Like, but it was mostly an intellectual quest because it was privately at home and after a few years, I mean After many years actually of seeking, I just couldn't find a teaching that resonated with both my heart and my mind. I spiraled into a different path. I called myself a devout existentialist, like, oh, we invented God, right, the divine, like, and then though, I hit a bottom in my early 30s and started a 12 step program. And that was the beginning of my

journey of like, experiential awakening. And it was basically someone asked me, like, what is your higher power? I'm like, oh, when I was a kid, I had some sense. But then it's almost like all the teachings that I read didn't like resonate with a sense of love that I thought God was. Right. And so that began my journey of meditating. And through meditation, I found what I couldn't find in any book, you know, even though I'm about to publish a book, I'm like, I'm hoping this book is something that points you toward your inner world, right? It's not about finding the information out there. But that awakening to the sense of wholeness and

of reevaluating my lifelong belief that I was broken, which is something I had believed most of my life that I was looking for a book that would tell me how to fix myself, because I thought it was flawed. Yeah. And so that journey of going into the silence started to shift like almost like my own beingness. And I remember one day when inside after many days of meditating, and I was like, Oh, why do people meditate all I do is cry when I meditate like that was happening for a while. And then one day, it was like this experience of light. really what to change the course of then my outer life and my career. You know, I changed from being a lawyer to having a call to being a minister. So yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the short version.

Wow, that's amazing. You know, and similar, my journey started beginning with mindfulness, My journey started beginning with mindfulness, which led to meditation. And I too, at the very beginning, did a lot of crying. And I had a hard time shutting off the thoughts. And in fact, I couldn't shut them off. And those thoughts end up becoming kind of the catalyst of my journey and questioning who is that voice? Like, what is this? Like, who's talking all this

crap in my head when I'm just trying to seek this inner peace, right? Like you said, or that's actually you said sense of wholeness, but that's when I found my sense of soul. And that's how this podcast became that name. That's so beautiful. Yeah. And I so resonate, obviously, my book is called The Enneagram of the Soul. And that word is so meaningful to me. Like to me, it is this, it's not just spirit, like, which is this amorphous oneness, but spirit expressing uniquely through you or me as you or as me. And there's like that richness to it, a juiciness to this life of soul. Yeah. I just heard Neil Donald Walsh in my head. He had come on a few times. He wrote the book Conversations with God.

I love that book. I love him. I love him. He is so amazing. And he said we are all, you know, different, like fingers on the hands of God. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Actually, I will have to say that his book is, you know, there's some pivotal, like moments in my life and teachers that have deeply informed the way I hold spirituality and that book and that teaching is one of them. So I actually teach that all the time, which is like, you were the universe expressing through that. You were the hands and feet

of the divine, like, like that. So shout out to Neil Donald Walsh. He's wonderful. But yeah, there are a lot of people that stuck out in my journey at the beginning as well, because I was seeking, right? I became very, very curious. It was a mystery what was on the other side, because I really had never experienced it for myself. So I really love that. How did you get into the Enneagram then? Because I was just showing you, I had a book from Shai Tabali, who wrote about the different chakra personality types. I was seeking like this, right? That was one of my first books. I was seeking through the Tarot or, you know, in the Gnostic Gospels I've been reading over the past five years. So we land in like these different spaces,

you know, when we're curious. Yeah. So I hit a bottom in my life. And in the same weekend, I asked my husband for a divorce and left my law job. Basically, there I was in San Francisco, I got my own one bedroom studio apartment. And I was like, what am I going to do with my life? It was like this early life crisis. And I, of course, true to my nature, I got a stack of books. So there I was alone. And one of the books was an Enneagram book. And I saw there was like an online test to take.

And so I took this test. And granted, I need to say that I first mistyped myself, but it was close enough, there were some common enough issues between these two numbers that basically I scored highest in type one and type three. But it turns out I'm a three, for those who know, not a one, but I thought I was a one for many years. The core of the issue that I read in the type one was a sense that you believe that something is like wrong with you, like, you know, and I resonated so deeply with this idea that I was like, broken or not whole or not good, which was a message I heard. I heard in my family or I translated how they showed up as that. And so the first thing I did, and it sounds like I'm crying all the time, because I've talked about crying, but I was an attorney in San Francisco. I didn't cry at all at this point in time.

And I just bawled for like hours. And because it felt so resonant to something deep within me of like, you just named something that on the surface, no one really knows about me. On the surface, I was excelling in every area of outer life. I was a straight A student in school. I had gone to Stanford Law School. I was an attorney in San Francisco in a prestigious law firm.

At the time, I was married to another Stanford lawyer. Like all the outer stuff, no one would be like, oh, you're broken, right? But inside, I was trying to fix this thing that I chronically felt. And so when this book named that, it just, it led me to this idea that, Oh, this belief according to the Enneagram is only a limiting belief based on your type, based on a certain framework as you and I were kind of talking about like an archetypal framework.

And what if it's not true? I mean it was a basic assumption about myself that I'm like, yes, this is true. And I just have to fix it as opposed to what if you are fundamentally whole and perfect as you are? That was the beginning of wow. And so the Enneagram captured my attention and then I began journeying with it at first because I had not yet had my spiritual awakening at that time. I first journeyed with it just psychologically so it was like an understanding and that was already helpful, right? Of like oh I think

differently from you. You have a different framework. We know this intellectually, but it really gave me a sense of like, foundationally. It's not just that we have a different opinion, it's that the lens to which we see the world is different. And that's one of the many things that the Enneagram names for us. This like, what is the lens to which I see the world that is a

limiting lens that actually keeps me from seeing reality with a capital R as it truly is. I love stuff like that as well like I think about the book The Five Love Languages right that helps you see from other people's perspective that we see the world differently. I think that was the first book that kind of made me really truly understand that. And which is important because of course we do. Right. Like, yeah.

Growing up, no one tells you that, you know, we all think we see. Actually, it's kind of funny just yesterday. Remember that thing that was going on on social media years ago. And she goes, look, mom, it was a white dress. She goes, but look in the corner where there's shadow, it looks like a white dress. And she goes, look, mom, it was a white dress. And she goes, look, mom, it was a white dress. And she goes, look, mom, it was a white dress. And she goes, look, mom, it was a white dress.

And she goes, look, mom, it was a white dress. And she goes, look, mom, it was a white dress. And she goes, look, mom, it was a white dress. And she goes, look, mom, it was a white dress. She goes, but look in the corner where there's shadow, it looks blue. And I said, don't you wonder how we are looking around the world and how we might see things totally differently. Right. Right.

I mean, there's the classic story of the blind men and the elephant. Where? Oh, okay. We'll share the story. I'll change the story a bit for blind men and the elephant. Where? Oh, okay. We'll share the story. I love my elephant. I'll change the story a bit for the nine enneagram times. Like, nine blind men. So, I'm sorry, I'm editing the story.

So, nine blind men approach an elephant, right? And so, one comes up to the tail and says, oh, you know what? Elephants are like furry and kind of wiggly. Oh, and he's like, yes, that's what elephants are. And then one of wiggly oh and he's like yes that's what elephants are and then one comes up to one of the toenails it was like no elephants like are are like hard and smooth to texture and one comes up you know to the body touches the skin oh my god elephants are like leathery and and so all of them think they're right, but they are only touching one facet of the elephant. And if we translate it spiritually,

it's like we're only touching one facet of the divine or of reality. And we're like, this is it. This is the way the world is. And inner spiritual work with the Enneagram begins to open us. It's almost like it broadens our lens to understand that that was a limiting paradigm

where we can open up our vision to hold not only our own wholeness, but there's a way of holding the unity and oneness of all life when our perspective begins to expand. You know what? A few months ago, I was studying a Gnostic text called the Trimorphic Protonoia. And at the very end of this text, it says, they are in the manner of the triad of three,

which are quadrangles, secretly in the silence of the inevitable one. I was, you know, I should have stayed in math longer because this was like, I was like, what? The manner of the triad of three, which are quadrangles. So then I put in AI, I want AI, maybe AI knows, maybe somebody already knows, nobody knows. No one's ever questioned this for some reason. But I did find one shape and it was the Enneagram shape. I'm shivering.

I was so confused though. I was like, what? And I still don't know. I don't, I don't know. But isn't that amazing? Yes. Yes. So powerful. And I don't know either.

I know. Yes. Yes. But I can tell you something about triads, because the Enneagram loves triads, right? I just read an article for Spiritual Directors International on the inner triangle of the Enneagram and this idea of the triangle and the law of three. I mean, this is not an original idea to me, you know, but being the foundation for creation itself, I mean, the the Trinitarian aspect to many worlds spiritual and religious traditions. And related to that, I want to say

that this idea of in this time of immense global challenge, that looking triadically, rather than in this polarizing binary way, is essential for creating, co-creating together is essential for creating, co-creating together like a fourth, so a different world. So when you think about that quad, like that fourth, as a result of bringing what we call the reconciling force in when we have an affirming and it's an denying force, yes, together so that we're not this versus this, but bringing presence, compassionate presence in a way that holds them both.

This is part of, for me, the teaching of the Enneagram. Father Richard Rohr talks about everything belongs. And I know people have diverse views here. I happen to believe in a non-dual reality in oneness. And so that means it's not like here's good and there's the bad evil force fighting the good, but rather this holding. But so going back to the Enneagram, this is why it's so brilliant to me. Every Enneagram type also has a notion of like the idealized self.

This is the self that is enlightened. This is the self that we prefer, right? As a type three, I prefer my competent self. I do not prefer, you know, it's sort of like what gets put in the shadow is like laziness or like looking bad, you know, all these things. And the rejection of that actually keeps the ego structure in place, not allowing for spiritual wholeness. And so instead of

fighting like those parts of me, they're just freaking human. So it's not like rejecting the parts of me that feel broken or less than, but somehow the holding and the embrace of that while still holding the ways I am competent, the ways I excel, all that together. It is that third force to me grounded in like a contemplative presence that allows for the holding in a way that then transforms. So it's not like they stay like that. A third, the integration happens. And I'll just add really quickly that I'm a somatic enneagram practitioner, which is when we recognize somatically, like, let's say I'm resisting a part of me that feels like it doesn't fit with my

egoic identity, that I drop into my body to see what is the sensation of this thing, you know, maybe it is like literally a brick wall that resists this part of me. I don't try to force my way in. Instead, what I do is I look at this area of constriction, I mean, somatically sense and feel it. And while I'm also sensing into another part that has well-being, it is not constricted, that is free, that feels, you know, that feels more positive, right. And then eventually, the holding of both when they come into contact, a third happens, right? Something new emerges from that not from rejecting one, but somatically,

and then the constriction as held in my energetic body is freed. So there's more space to more freedom to be whatever my soul calls me to be in this moment and not have those aspects rejected by my ego or idealized self, if you will. So yeah, I'm going to just compare it to like, I've heard that tourists can be stubborn. Well, I happen to be a tourist. I call that stubbornness persistence. I could be very persistent. I'm a little bit.

But it is true. So. But you know, I never saw it as like a negative. Really truly haven't, but some people have. You know, my best friend's a tourist and she's always like, oh, why does everyone always say we're stubborn? I mean, this girl is stubborn. But I said, why can't we look at these qualities that are challenging, you know, as something

positive? So I like that you said that because I do try to hold space for chaos too. Yes, yes. I love that. I mean, I have to. I'm a mom of four. Yeah, I can imagine that's a lot of chaos. So I am not a mom of four, but I am one of five kids. And so I have four siblings. Can you please tell me, because I know this has been around, I've actually think I've heard about the Enneagram much longer than any of the practices that I came into. So how long and where did this come from?

Oh, I thought you were gonna have an easy question. Okay. The truth is actually that nobody really knows. And there's a lot of arguments about whether it's ancient, whether it's not ancient. It's almost as much as like the arguments about the Bible and its origins. But we do know the origins are unknown. And I think this is true of anything that is of another era, because there was a time before books

when there was just verbal, it was oral tradition of handing down information. So the symbolism of the enneagram arguably dates all the way back then. And so the idea is that, just as we were talking about the triangle, so you can see if you look at the image of the enneagram, that there's an inner triangle. There's a triangle inside. There's a circle. So I speak only briefly about that in my book, but this idea that there is like sacred geometry within the symbolism.

And so all of that, of course, dates back early on, right? But the Enneagram as we know it today, that it's been popularized as a personality typing system is only a few decades old. It's happening. It's in the air. The time is now. We're all waking up.

We're waking up. We're all waking up. It's waking up. We're all waking up. It's all shifting. New vibrations. It's you. It's me. It's all of us. A new time.

A new day. A new energy. A new reality. Awaken with us. Awaken with us. NewRealityTV.com. I'm actually pulling it up because I wanted to look at it and it is so strange that I just put an enneagram symbol. The first thing that popped up in my phone anyway is that I'm sure that AI knows everything I do. It says Gnostic Circle. Wow. Isn't that weird? Yeah, that is fascinating. Yeah, and technology is so smart now in a way these connections almost like it's coming to us. It knows us. Yes. Sometimes you don't even have to say anything and you're like, how, how did this

happen? It reached out for all of us who have been on this journey of awakening you know this like synchronicity and this like this unfoldment of a path that as you said is uniquely yours right if i googled the enneagram i would probably not get gnostic like in my circle in my you know so so yeah and what's for you, right? Yeah, yes, yes. It's so divine, isn't it? And so I do lean into synchronicities. They've led me throughout my whole journey, partly because I didn't really have a teacher guiding me.

I didn't have that preacher at the front of the church to tell me this is what this scripture means. And actually, I'm great, very grateful that I didn't in many ways so that I could learn it for myself. Yeah, especially given your background, right? When you come from a background where it's like the gospel, right? Like the preacher is the authority on wisdom and you're used to that. It makes sense that not having that

aboveness allows you the freedom to explore and question, right? That that's so. And then even, you know, when we talk about spiritual direction or like mentoring as a minister now, many of us talk about it like spiritual companioning, you know, and I very specifically wrote that. I mean, the book is titled the 40 day spiritual companion, which one who walks beside one who right so different from this old idea of like, from the top, you right? Like, authority? Yes, yes. To understand you have your own inner authority and there can be support alongside you in helping you to wake up. Yeah, so different from top down. I would say that my connection to a higher source

is stronger now that I know thyself. Before it was just here's outside of me, right? This great divine God, you know, dude sitting on a throne up in heaven judging everyone. And, you know, it was hard to you're right, it was hard to rewire that. She's up there too. Yes. So just holding space where like we have diverse ways of relating to this divine, but so happens in my background, unity teaches that the divine or spirit is both imminent and transcendent. You know, this idea that it mean if it's like everywhere present, but we're most used to seeing it as transcendent outside, you know, and then some people I think can overly like it's insolent.

I'm God, you know, yet. Yeah. And but there's like this humility. I think that this notion of still got and yet something is bigger than my at least present consciousness. So that balance of where are we like affirming ourselves and having humility on this journey of like this ongoing quest for truth, even that idea like say not you have found the truth, but a truth along the way, you know, yeah. So there are nine. Yes. And nine usually is like that in numerology, like that number of completion. Yes.

Within the enneagram of personality, which is one of many, how far do I want to go with this? Like, enneagons is how they originally described it. So most people were like, oh, I know the enneagram. And they only know the enneagram of personality. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'll say that. But it's the entry point.

So my book talks about that, how like, oh, why learn about personality? It's the entry point into our wholeness, because we present with this over identification with our personality as an ego, right? Like that's okay, that's normal. But yes, so nine different personality types represented. And again, this is only a few decades old, this teaching. So the Enneagram can be seen as a map of consciousness, but personality, as I'm sure you already know, is only one aspect of consciousness. So there are nine frameworks or archetypes for showing up in the world, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. What are they? Can you just say that? So so the original only had numbers, not names. So when I list names, take it lightly, because these are just

mnemonics to help you generally kind of get a sense of them. So I'll start with type one. So type one is sometimes called the perfectionist or the reformer. And it's kind of built based on this fake lens, limited lens of saying there's something wrong. So there's a belief in the lack of perfection of things. So the three's personality is designed to find out, like look for what's wrong in any room so that they can better it, improve it, make the world good or better. And so the personality then, what happens? The personality of the one can sometimes be a bit critical,

self-critical, perfectionistic, and tends to notice what's wrong before it notices what's good or right. So just based on that false belief that there is not inherent perfection in life, right? Yeah. So the type two is called the giver or the helper. It's a heart type.

And so it's a little deceptive when we call it the giver. Everybody wants to be that way. So, you know, like, but this idea that the type two has lost sight with this holy idea that basically all of the needs of life are being met. And the two is like, Oh, my needs are not valuable. So the two strategy is if I focus on other people's needs, codependence, it can be at the unhealthy, there's some

healthy twos, right really is like that if I focus on other people's needs, and giving it to them, then I will get what I want. But of course that strategy doesn't work. Just like the one strategy of trying to fix the world, if your radar is always for what's wrong, even if things get improved, you're not gonna enjoy the improvement. You're gonna continue to focus on what else is wrong

and needs improvement, right? So we're talking about egoic frameworks. I'll take a step back to say one of my favorite quotes in describing this is that it's like the from A Course in Miracles, the ego's mantra is seek, but do not find. Right. So we seek outside the ones trying to fix the world, the twos trying to like give enough so that they can actually like feel okay, right. And it's like never

enough. The three which I identify with has to do with this notion of doing enough. It's like we are the human doers, rather the human beers, you know, like it's not a human being, right? And so this idea that my I'm not inherently valuable. That's what the three believes. I'm only valuable for the value I give to you. I'm only valuable for what I accomplish is the limiting belief. It's not true. These are the limiting stories of each type. So the three is called the achiever. And so the type

four is sometimes called the tragic romantic. Basically, the type four is rooted in this, like, that I am separate from the source. And I have to be special or unique in order to be okay, in order to be loved, really. And so you'll find that fours really can often dress or try to look or act very differently from others. They're not always conscious that they're trying. They just think, oh, I'm so different, and usually tragically different.

And so cultivating that uniqueness can actually result in fours feeling even more separate. Right. But so, again, every type actually revert like the three. It's like however much I accomplish or do, if I'm not rooted in wholeness as the ground of my being, it doesn't matter how much I accomplish. I'll still feel like that's not enough. right? Again, all the numbers are like that. The type five generally believes I need to know enough to be okay in the world. And so they've lost sense of the holy omniscience, the all-knowingness of their own being. And so there's a desire to seek out enough

knowledge or that special knowledge that will give me the capacity to just show up for life. But a lot of fives will just end up researching and researching. I need to know more before I can show up. Down the rabbit hole. Yes. Down the rabbit hole. Exactly the term many of us use to describe the fives, right?

And so they're, and they can be very withheld in their energy. So the enneagram is not about behavior. It's about motivation. So like, let's say because people be like, you might be like, well, I read a lot in the end, must I be a five? Well, I'm looking at you. I'm like, you're you what your type is, but like, it's a world like there's a relationality to you, usually until five, so then a lot of in a work, like you could feel their energy is being withheld, they're observing the world more the insecurity of life, they're sort of rooted in fear. It's like, I want to make things more secure. So depending on the subtype, which is a nuance of this, you know, the six might look for security in their home and their finances, or they might look for it in their partnership. And so sixes have this, if I make things secure enough, then I will feel safe, but it's never enough. It's like it doesn't matter how much you have in your bank account, it doesn't matter how

many times your partner has like said, I love you, right, if you're rooted in a framework that is, is itself insecure. So this is where the spiritual practice comes in. Because it's like, no amount of outer security will give you a sense of inner security and stability you a sense of inner security and stability that ground of being right. So the type seven is rooted in this idea. It's a fear based type as well as the six, but it doesn't always know that it's basically running from pain into pleasure. So seven scan for future possibilities, they're often seen as, oh, yeah,

let's, we're here for the next opportunity and adventure. And so sevens compulsively avoid any sense of pain or limitation. Yeah. So that's, again, just another strategy. But imagine if you're compulsively, you're designed to look toward the future, look at options and opportunities.

The problem is you land into the moment, present moment and where are you? You're not in the present moment You're looking at the future opportunities chasing after Yes Yes, and especially in this idea of constantly thinking about ideas and opportunities So again, this is a very superficial, you know, all these numbers, it's been years on. But yeah, so the type eight is within this belief that the world is a dangerous place. But instead of like the six, which believes in this fearful space, the eight is like, well,

I will be powerful. So I can't show my vulnerability. But it's called the protector, the challenger, often called the boss. Eights really have this sense, at least from a egoic place, of like, I'm powerful in the world, but I can't show my vulnerability because it's a dog-eat-dog world out there. So eights can build this persona of like constantly being strong. And where they lose out is, you know, that they're like, when is it my turn like to receive?

Like there aren't those spaces. And so when I work with eights one-on-one, we cultivate vulnerability. And then the last number is the nine. And the nine is sometimes called the peacemaker or the mediator. And so their framework is really, well, if you go deeper into it, it's this idea, the sun is shining, life

is filled with positivity, but the sun doesn't shine on me, like I don't matter. And so the nine strategy to not face this belief that it doesn't matter is, I'll just merge with what does matter. Like there's something about like, not dealing with with literally figuratively falling asleep to the self so that the nine doesn't assert what are my personal needs? What are my personal views? Oh, there's a little, it doesn't matter anyway, it's like going to sleep to your personal aspects and then merging. Sometimes it's with the couch, sometimes it's merging with a strong partner or like a strong parent where it's like, I'll just go with your flow. Like I don't have to have my own like desires. So, so that's in a nutshell. Yes, I've noticed that you've had extra reactions to certain numbers. So I'm very curious about that. Yeah, this is very interesting, especially since like I said, I just had Shai Tabalian,

who has is only seven and is basically, you know, on the chakras. And they're, you know, which are very similar actually to many, you know, archetypes. And I bet you anything if I got into the Enneagram, they're going to match up with that because so two, six and nine were the three that were sounding like me. I would say pretty much all the rest of them were definitely not. Yeah. And you know what? Only just thinking about in my life, what I have struggled with, what have been my challenges. I've always been a codependent. You know, it's something that I'm always working on even still today, you know, to fill my cup up first. And I'm not the leader, right? I have to make my voice be strong to be heard,

you know, to my children. And even like, hmm. And so I do I love to have my friends who are strong leaders and stuff so I can support their their voices. And even though I have a podcast and all that, this was a huge challenge for me to find my voice, which I did, and to share, you know, and be vulnerable so that I can connect with people. So there is part of that. But it's interesting. I never thought I would be like a nine. And I never thought like in Shaid Diwali that I would be the top of his the yogi. Not at all. I wouldn't see

myself as that. But when I have done the work, I actually do fall into that archetype strongly. Yeah, yeah, that's what about the nine? Do you connect with? I connect with definitely I'm the peacemaker. I mean, this everyone knows this, but which also can go for the two as well, right? Because I don't like conflict at all. In fact, I pause a lot before I engage. I have also been in Al-Anon for many, many years. So I too know the big book and the 12 steps very well, which just helps me a lot with boundaries and with not carrying the weight of the world, not enabling because those things have often been easy for me to fall into most of my life.

Not the second half, not when I awakened. In fact, when I awakened, I was like, wait a minute. I have a self. Like, what is this? Which is why I was like, who is this voice telling me I'm not good enough? I'm not worthy. Now I hear those things sometimes, but then I can say, that is not true. I am worthy. But this is something I have to consciously do.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. It really is amazing. And I think some of the most powerfully compassionate voices out there are the product of journeys like yours, right? That like from the place of knowing when voices aren't heard, right? To give voice, to be a force in giving voice to others and not just the other people, but to ideas that help, you know? Yeah, yeah. Definitely see that in your work, yeah. Just normalize it, right?

Like I don't have to be a guru or a yogi or someone who is always in meditation. I can just be present throughout my day, even I'm busy. Yes, yes. And I do try to be present with everyone, but I also have ADHD, so there you go. Oh. So, yeah.

And so much of this journey for me, I mean, with the Enneagram, for instance, learning your type is learning compassion for the ways that we do things, like defaults, like, you know, and so when you brought that up, I was like, yeah, and how can we hold that in that field of love and belonging like that deeply paradoxically actually transforms it like,

you know, it would probably be different if you're continually rejecting the part of you that's like, Oh, my God, I'm so scattered, that versus like, I embrace this. And that enables me to show up in a different way, right? Yeah, yeah. And it's taught me a lot. I've had to learn how to watch people's mouths move so that I can listen to them, right?

I've had to really make a conscious move in my life to be present with people because I have ADHD. You know, my kids would say, you know, you didn't hear me. I told you 500 times. I'm like, yeah, but you're telling me I'm doing the dishes and I'm dealing with a baby. And I, you know, and my brain's like freaking out, you know? And so I had, we had to learn to stop and get eye contact if you want me to hear you. And so it was a blessing. like most of our challenges end up being, right? Yes. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, you have to work with them.

And I love that you didn't just focus on like, this is the achiever. This is the giver and the most amazing or whatever. I love that you really explained the challenges because we all can think that we're one way, but really inside that inner journey connects with, you know, the qualities that you were sharing. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, for sure, for sure.

That's really my hope for people. You know, again, it's like learning about, yes, learning which type is yours is important. So talking about, well, what do those types tend to do the most? What's their way of thinking? It's helpful to help you identify it and identify things that maybe we don't do as skillfully

in our everyday lives. But to me, the deeper idea is, do we see that this identification with this particular egoic structure causes suffering? Right? Causes us suffering. And it loops again, it's like, seek but do not find, you know, it's like the type six is like, I'm going to get security, I'm going to strive more for security, you know, and build it. And it's like, I never feel secure. It's like, to not have that access to this path of finding it within ourselves, to know that it can never be found in the world if we do not cultivate the capacity for almost like, holding it or believing in

it or embodying it within our own beings. Right? I mean, we could talk all we want about I am whole, I am whole. And I definitely love the affirmations, right? But if like, but I also need to open my system up in a way that allows me to receive that statement. Right? And that requires obliterating, you know, like some of these storylines that say, No, no, no, I'm only whole I'm only worthy if I did that well or this well, right? storylines that we get to like break free from when we learn the enneagram tells us, sure, everybody has like everybody gives so that doesn't make you a two everybody's has fear that doesn't make you a six year but there's something about like the repeat

of that pattern in your life that the enneagram can help you to identify so that you're gonna like, oh, and then it's like less personal, like sixes, you know, who have been anxious all their lives are like, like, I'm not crazy, or at least like a bunch of other people have the same brand of crazy as me, you know, like, so there's a normalization of of your type structure as well to not just be like, oh, my gosh, you know,

I'm out here like on a limb versus, oh, this is an archetype. This is a pattern of our humanity, you know, if you will. And I was actually going to ask you that because I was thinking about that. And I always think about this when we're talking archetypes is there's like this nature and nurture. And for me with the two, I think I'm both, you know, because this is generation after generation after generation. We're martyrs.

Yeah, we're mothers. And people often tell me, oh my gosh, you are so much like our momoa, which is we have momoas in Louisiana. So I get told that often. And it used to be like the greatest, you know, compliment and it still is. However, she never once did nothing for herself never. And I I don't know how she did it because I tried and I went crazy.

And I broke that pattern. And I'm glad that I did, but it is still something that comes up often. Yes, yes. So it sounds like your question is, is it nature or nurture? Yeah, it's nature and nurture, like where this falls in the enneagram. I mean, oftentimes, you know, we're born one way, we have like this, you know, genetic makeup, but we also have a spiritual, right? And then we come to this world, we have experience. So, you know, we're so multi-dimensional. Yes. I would say that the nature nurture argument behind like why we are the way we are, I don't know that that argument

among therapists and spiritual teachers and all the people like I don't know that we can ever prove one way or another but I have a personal view right because it's like so my personal view is that we are born with a soul level predisposition with certain Enneagram type. And my validation for this is two people will come to me and they're like, Nian, the reason I'm an eight is I came from a violent family. And so we had a fight our way through. And then a nine will come to me. Nian, the reason I'm a nine is I came from a violent family. And so I hid, I just blended in the background so no one would notice me right? Same story, they think that's the cause of that. And I tend to think we came in with a soul

level predisposition to interpret our early childhood events in a certain way. And then just reinforcing the narrative of our type already saying see, I have to hide or see, I have to be big and strong. Same facts, right? Yeah. And then depending on how traumatic it is, I think it reinforces the enneagram type. You double down on your type as a survival method, like I'm going to really stay hidden here, right?

Which locks up the ego even more from freedom. But when there's a little bit of space and healing, then the type which is a, it's almost like a strategy, it's like, oh, there's more of my identity, but I locked down into just this one type. And so breaking free from our type is really breaking free from this fixation of like, this is the only way to show up in life. Like, you know, if, if you are properly a type two, twos, learn, oh my gosh, I mean, sure, there's a overlap with codependency, but most twos are like, really, I can say no. Like, I was just about to say that. Yeah, because

that's the thing I tell I could I could validate what I just asked you about nature and nurture. What you just said happened to me when I decided to say no, I was like, I kept saying no, but yet there was something within me was like, but, but you want to, why would you say no, no, cause now I'm being the no Shanna and I'm going to choose myself, but yet naturally it didn't feel good. So trusting that discernment in my body, like, okay, you're going a little bit overboard with the no thing. I mean, cause you know, yeah, you were a yes person your whole life, you know, but still you have to be true to who you are.

And if you want to, then do it. Yes. And, and yes, no, no. So you know what I mean? Right, then do it. Yes. And yes, no, no. You know what I mean. Right, right, right. And when people start Enneagram inner work, every time we start doing the opposite of our type,

there's that discomfort. And here's the tricky part and why guidance and support can be helpful because it's like at that moment you're like, is this a real note or is this my reactive? I have notes in my phone that have excuses not necessarily excuses but phrases that I can say is so not natural for me. Right it It's so interesting. So there's the question that I would like push back and go what's natural, right? So Enneagram helps us to know that there's some things that

are habituated into your type, the patterns, but maybe what's natural for you, your true self. It's like, actually, that is a no here. So like this idea that what we thought were, because tools would be like, well, I just love to give them. Yeah, you know, like, I was like, yeah, but what is your focus on giving to others and being aware of what their needs are? What part of your wholeness, your gifts to the world don't even get to ever come out, don't get to be expressed because you're too busy thinking what they need.

In this, where you are lacking, right? Do you want to lean more and learn more about those other Enneagram types? Oh, yes, yes, yes. In fact, the path of wholeness, the way I teach the Enneagram, if you look at the image, all types are on the circumference of the circle, the center on the edge. Coming into wholeness is coming into the whole circle where you have access to the gifts of your humanity. I can't I don't even want to say it's all types. It's your gifts. It's just that you rejected them right? Like, you're like, No, I'm only this. Oh, if you're too, oh, I'm only giving I'm unselfish. There's nothing for me. I was like, well, yeah,

there will be nothing for you if that's your storyline. So you have to assert, you know, kind of. And so yes, sometimes just watching people about their types of Wow, but don't keep it outside you. It's sort of like, wow, that capacity to assert, like, like, I'm going to take that on more. But chances are, here's shadow work. There's a reason why you didn't take it on before. Most people, even if they're like impressed by it, they have judgments around it. A lot of nines actually have judgments around like their inner three, if you will, like, like this, the part that wants to shine the part that wants,

you know, to be seen that they have tons of judgment around it. Right. So that's the issue. It's not just that you want it, that inside the shadow work is about owning that there's a part of me that's very judgmental of that quality. Right. Yeah. And so really integrating that and allowing space for, you know, the gifts of being able to show up and bearing the discomfort of, of the parts of you that are like, ooh, but you don't want to be that person.

No, I've come to agree with that completely. Like wherever I fall uncomfortable, I lean into that. I mean, or even talking about this, it's like, I know who I am, right? I want to explore what I don't know. I feel like where I'm at right now is understanding other personality types. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So the Edding Firm of Soul, there's a very specific reason I addressed all nine types in my daily invitations, like 40 days of like journeying together. Yes, but all night types. I was noticing, there are a lot of books out there,

and great books, but they're like for type one only, or for type two only. Yeah, I had someone on who was, whatever type she was that she came on. Okay, yeah, yeah. So, but I was noticing that people were telling me, oh, Niamh, when you posted these on Instagram, I was like, I was like reading all of them. And it actually shifted my perspective, because I'm all that wants to see,

you know, the struggles of each of the numbers or the gifts of each of the numbers. And so seeing it more holistically like that can be very helpful for the journey. But again, not just seeing it outside, like other people, I can understand other people, but like, there's an inner relationship I have, like there's a quality of that within myself, how do I relate to that, that impacts like if someone's judging their own inner anger, you can bet that they're judging others, you know, I had an issue where it's like, oh, women, especially, are you allowed to be angry? Or must you be so proper? And you know, like the way that I shut it out outside of me but also inside of me, right?

And so looking at both together, I think can be very helpful. And so tell me about the 40 day challenge that you have. Oh, yes. So it's a 40 day like spiritual companion for the nine times. And so basically the idea is that, you know, when you're lonely, like me, and like having books help you along the journey, like books as friends, like this is really designed to companion you. So the first part of the book is nine principles about the Enneagram to help you learn Oh, I have an Enneagram primer, nine principles, nine practices, because you can't

just learn the information. It's like spiritual practices, and then nine prayers that I wrote for each of the types. Then, then there are 40 days worth, and you could take it as like one a week, you know, 40 weeks, if you want to, like stay with it longer. But it's like, I'll have a topic like forgiveness. And it's just a little gem. It's not like a whole book on forgiveness, it's just maybe something to look at depending on your number. And so I did it for each of the numbers. So this

idea that each day or each week, you can kind of like reflect on, oh, here's something to try on for myself in relation to forgiveness, you know, self acceptance, like maybe is one chapter, resting, you know, is maybe one section and topics like that or dealing with transition. Again, this is not meant to be like each of them could be their own book, right. But it's meant to just give you something to like work on that day to really reflect and look at that day.

Yeah, I'm excited. I want to do this. This is so fun. I know my listeners are thinking the same thing. And I love challenges. I love like those daily devotions. So it so happens. I decided to create a mini weekend training for anyone who wants to lead Contemplative Enneagram book studies. And the training happens, my book drops to the public April 7th, so the training is that following weekend for anyone who wants to lead specifically contemplative Enneagram journeys using this book. And it's only like, it's like a

six, it's like two days, three hours each. And yes, I'd love to have all the people because it really is like a special, it's meant to journey in community, ideally. But they use also the Enneagram, I hear it a lot in like businesses. But this I have never heard of and I love, to help you along your spiritual journey. So thank you very much for that.

Yeah, yeah. So especially knowing your background from a more sort of fundamental religious background. I specifically explicitly wrote in this book that this is designed for those whose spirituality is like mine, who, you know, who thrives on the sense of wonder and like mystery,

that it's not meant to be a dogmatic spirituality. And so I really wanted to be welcoming of people from any spiritual or religious background. So even people can journey together. My communities that I lead with Evolving Enneagram are inter-spiritual. We have Muslims, we have pagans, we have recovering Catholics, and we have regular

Catholics. You know, and, and, but there's something core where we meet. And so it also builds that that greater sense of unity. You know, when people were like, Oh, we don't have to believe this to be on a spiritual path with you in this book. Right? So that's really that was so important for me to be like a foundational part of my book because of my own quest because I was like I don't fit into any religious box. How am I going to do this? How am I going to find support? And I wanted to offer something that could support other people. Love it. I really do love it. So tell everybody where they could find you. Tell them your website. Shout yourself out.

Okay. Yes. EvolvingEnneagram.com is my website. All the things like the groups I lead, you can get the book there and training. And so there's a training to help those of you who are like, I love this stuff and I want my friends or my community to all get involved. All that stuff is on the website, evolvingnaogram.com. Oh, you want to see the book? I do. I love the book. And like the circles remind me of Sands of Sol because you know, I have the circles above Sands of Sol. And originally, I just did them with my fingers. Oh, just the chakra colors all the way, you know, beautiful. Yeah,

circle of our wholeness and our oneness and our unity. Thank you. I just saw one.