Sense of Soul - Bullying; Make Love not Hate

Episode Date: September 10, 2021

Today we have with us on Sense of Soul Podcast, author and co-active coach Jenny Dalton. She has a B.A. in English Literature and History, is a entrepreneur, she facilitates groups and coaches individuals towards powerful change. Jenny teaches and practices yoga; mentors young women and helps support the education of girls in Haiti. She travels the world. And, she loves her life, and promises you it gets better every year. Jenny has always loved writing and has published articles and poetry in numerous venues. She joined us to talk about her beautiful book, Of Butterflies and Bullies, her first novel, which took her 10 years to finish. Then, it sat in a hard drive for a decade more. It's based on her real-life experience being bullied by other girls who she thoughtwere her closest friends and how she used journal writing to connect to her own power, deep inside, to feel better.  You can learn more about Jenny at: kitchentableconsulting.com ofbutterfliesbullies.com or loveinactioncoaching.com This episode was recorded in July on the day that Haiti’s President was assassinated, since a devastating earthquake killed over 2000 people. Check out and donate to those in need in Haiti at www.hearthstone-village.org Check out Sense of Soul at www.mysenseofsoul.com Join our Patreon today to access exclusive episodes and more!

So this episode was recorded in July on the day that the president of Haiti was assassinated and since then the devastating earthquake that killed over 2,000 people. That poor country has had so many troubles. Mandy and I are sending them many prayers. And if you'd like to donate to Haiti, please leave the show notes. Welcome to the Sense of Soul podcast. We are your hosts, Shanna and Mandy. Grab your coffee open your mind heart and soul it's time to awaken today we have with us jenny dalton she is a co-active coach a love warrior alchemist way

yoga teacher and joy agent she is also an author of many published articles, and she's here to talk about her book of Butterflies and Bullies, her first novel that is based on her real life experiences with bullying, how her own experiences and awakening to the impact of being bullied as a child led to supporting and helping others on how they can release judgments, comparisons, and grow spiritually and be on the path of empathy, compassion, and self-love and how important that is in people's lives and courage to be ourselves and to become the light. It is such a pleasure to have Jen on with us today. We're so excited to talk about this beautiful book of butterflies and bullies.

Your card and book that you mailed to us was so flippant and sweet. Thank you. Oh, you're welcome. Well, thanks for reading it. Seeing the different references, I'm like, well, she must be about our age. Yeah, I just turned 50. Okay, so we're 45. Yeah. Dang, you look great for being 50. But then again, I don't know what 50 is supposed to look like. I don't, I don't know, but you look fabulous. Thanks. Well,

I feel like it's shifting, you know, we're all looking younger anyway. And just, you know, it's not our parents 50. We're not our grandparents 50. So true. And I have to say, you know, reading your book, it brought up so many memories. I was having to stop like in between each paragraph. And I was reflecting on my life as a child, my parents and me as a mother and my children and just so many different scenarios and situations, both good and bad. I was emotional at times. Yeah. It was pretty interesting. Thank you very much. It was beautiful book. Thanks for saying that. I mean, I think that that's, it's been the most interesting response is that really women our age are getting kind of like an experience of reliving their childhood a little bit and getting some closure on some stuff and having those moments of connection to the past

so that they can kind of move through them yeah I thought about you know Lardass really triggered um Stand By Me which was one of my favorite movies, of course, partly because, you know, all of the cute Shons that were in it. And, and then, you know, then I thought about like 13 going on 30, how they tried to remake Our Childhood, which I thought they did a really good job. I loved that movie. I still do. And my kids love it, but yeah, it just, you know, a lot of reflecting, it just triggered a lot in me. Super like shocked in addition to this book, all the way you do. Oh yeah. I'm kind of polymath as they say, I do, I do too many things. I'm working on limiting them. Could you tell our listeners what all you have your hands in right now?

Well, right now I'm actually slowly limiting some things, but I'm really focusing on my book things. And then I work in food systems. So my job is I'm a facilitator and sometimes researcher. And I do a lot of work to help communities collaborate around local food systems programs and projects. And so, you know, I'm often like right now I'm working on a proposal to work with a team in New Orleans. That's like a whole group of a bunch of different food systems related organizations that are learning how to collaborate and kind of, you know, take everything to the next level. So my husband and I work together and we do that. And then I'm also the vice president and former president of a board that runs a

nonprofit organization. And we raise money to help girls in Haiti go to high school or go to, you know, just school in general, we send them to private schools. And so that takes up a lot of my time, which I love, but it's all volunteer. And I mean, part of it is I don't have kids. And so my projects are my kids, you know? And so I remember I saw a psychic when I was in my twenties and I'm like, so am I going to be a mom? And she's like, I see you in front of a huge desk covered in lots of papers and books. And, and she's like, I think you're going to have a lot of projects, you know? And then I also coach a lot of women and I've lately been coaching a lot of women on sobriety issues and, and just like a lot of like getting clarity from the pandemic around like, who am I?

What's, you know, who am I becoming? What do I really want? And, you know, so I love having conversations. Really a lot of my work is around, you know, so I love having conversations. Really a lot of my work is around, you know, conversations, whether it's. Oh my gosh, that's so me. I love, I love talking and I love sharing and I love listening and I love hearing. I'll be honest with you. Speaking of reflecting, I mean, when I only, when I had a year and a half sobriety under my belt, cause I'll have 11 years this November, I remember someone saying to me, you take like your start date of what age you started drinking. And then you add on how much sobriety you have. And that's how much I like the age you are mentally. And I was like, wait, what? Then that makes me, I started drinking

when I was 15. Okay. Then you add on like the, the, so then you add on the 10 years that I have, that means that mentally I'm 25. I'm like, no, I don't think so. But it actually works for me because I was saying, I feel like a 15 year old a lot of the time. But then I realized how dormant my feelings and my evolution was for so long because it was just being, you know, pushed deep down and numbed out with the, with the alcohol. So I got what they were saying, but I mean, kudos to you for a year and a half and like sitting there, you know, with boundaries already learning to limit yourself, learning, learning how to handle and juggle all these things in your life. Cause at a year and a half, I think my brain was still mush.

My brain is a little mushy, but I also have spent a lot of time taking really long fasts from alcohol. So I would do like sober summer. I did that twice. You know, I did 90 days with, you know, I would lead groups of women through these, you know, kind of short bursts of being alcohol free. And so I had like some training behind it. And then I'm like, wait, why why am I why do I go back to it having a glass of wine this is stupid so that's how I felt yeah and part of it too it's really

about feeling your feelings right which you know is what what I really wanted my book to be about too it's just about like what is this like true feeling of you know the experience of being bullied, what, so how do, how can I really feel my feelings in my life? That to me is honoring essentially my sole purpose, you know, allowing the feelings to come and go and learning how to not attach myself to the, what I think the meaning of them are. And it's just, that's a huge practice. And I think that, you know, obviously like getting sober is a huge step in like giving yourself permission to have that. Yeah. And the clarity and space, because I know for myself, that's one of the reasons why I quit drinking. It wasn't because I was an alcoholic. It was just because I didn't like that something

could just slip into my body and steal my mind, steal my emotions and my, you know, awareness and everything that I had control over. And so as I was gaining control of myself, that was one of the things where I was like, no, because I felt out of control when I would drink. So yeah. And everybody around me also was alcoholic. So I decided to be the sober friend. I know there's something rebellious about it. And, you know, I mean, I live up in Mendocino County too. It's like wine country and weed country, et cetera. There's just something, I love the rebellious nature of being like nope I'm not participating yeah yeah everyone's like why never and I'm like no I'm good I'm totally good someone's gotta try it exactly Bandy has a friend and she wrote a book called Miracles on Voodoo

Mountain is that what's called Bandy the Miracle on Voodoo Mountain yeah yeah that what it's called, Thandie? The Miracle on Voodoo Mountain. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a good book. Oh, I love that book. Have you heard of it? No, I haven't. I'll write it down. Read it. Yes. So yeah, she opened, you know, a school on the top of the mountain in Haiti and it's a public school and the kids walk up the mountain with no shoes half the time to this school. And she's from Colorado and she was inspired one time while she was visiting with her boyfriend, she was sitting there and she saw a little girl grab rocks and was trying to kill a bird. And then as soon as she finally got the bird to die, she grabbed it and started eating it. And in that moment, she said, she just had this wake up

call of like, this is where I'm supposed to be. I have got to help the children of Haiti. I know that over the years I was supposed to go on a mission there with my daughter for all of the, the fighting. And then of course with COVID they've been kind of, you know, there's been a setback over there apparently. Yeah. Well, and today, I don't know if you know, you know, there's been a setback over there apparently. Yeah. Well, and today, I don't know if you know, I mean, it's pretty auspicious, but the president and his wife were assassinated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, there's a lot of uncertainty there and, you know, and our, the girls that we support, we support about 33 girls. They are in Port-au-Prince and they're in a pretty safe neighborhood. It's pretty quiet.

They're kind of like in this sort of, I don't know if you could have a suburb of Port-au-Prince there, they're there, but they've closed the airports and everything's really unclear right now. And throughout the whole situation with the pandemic, they have kind of on and off been going to school. But we over the last few years have helped create a library in their home. And it's been really great because all of the girls are so into school, like they really, really want to succeed. I mean, not all of them. Some of them are like, school sucks. I'm not into this or it's not their thing. Starting to inspire each other to read and do extra work and to get ahead of themselves so that when they have to take these

huge government tests to move into the next grade, when they're, you know, kind of like at a transition period from like junior high to high school, and then like it's different points in high school, they have really rigorous testing. And so they've all been like preparing themselves for that because they, they just, they're really committed to breaking the cycles of poverty really is what we talk about. Yeah. You know, a lot of them go to school to eat. I mean, that's like a big part of the reason why a lot of them, you know, even go to school. Yeah. Well, and all the schools in Haiti are private. And so unless like, so orphanages typically will have, they'll create a school in their orphanage. What we do is we raise money to send them to private schools so that they're going to the with, you know, they have dances and swim teams and computer lab. And, you know, they're, they're having a pretty modern experience because they live in the city. And so I imagine Mandy, that your friend is more connected with maybe,

you know, a small village or a countryside, which again, their schools also will probably cost a little bit of money because you can't run it on nothing. And, you know, there's just, there's a great need for, you know, educating, especially the girls so that they're, you know, they're not getting pregnant. They're not feeling the need to become prostitutes. They're not, you know, getting sold into slavery. You know, there's just so many things that kind of keep them down. But if, you know, they can learn French and a little bit of English, they are way ahead of the curve. Wow.

You know, it's so interesting. When Mandy had approached me with the school and the book and all that, I happened to be going through my ancestral journey. I'd just been diving into it. It was the exact same time. And I was like, like well that's very interesting because I'm I'm right now trying to understand where Saint Domaine was and where it is and so as I'm looking I'm like holy shit it was Haiti you know they changed names you know

when there was the slave revolt which then in Louisiana followed. They tried to do that. And so one of the plantation owners that we hit first was one of my grandfathers. And, you know, just learning through all of that and learning about the history of St. Domingue, now Haiti, and how, you know, the French, they actually overcame France. I mean, which is pretty amazing, but yet there's still today struggling. And that's so sad about their leaders being killed. I mean, I don't know what their leaders were like, you know, that's always sometimes part of the problem for the people, but still, nevertheless, I'm sure it's going to shake up that country. Yeah. There's it's a, it's such a complicated history, you know? And I mean, I think part of it for me, you know, I got really interested in it because I read Go Tell It to the Mountain.

I think that's the name of the book by Tracy Kidder. It's about Dr. Farmer, who was doing AIDS work in the countryside. And for some reason, again, it was just deep connection. I was like, I need to be in Haiti. I don't know what it is, but again, looking at my ancestry, um, and being really connected to it, I was like, oh, I come from like a really long line of doctors and preachers. And when I learned to about, um, so my, my family was, came from like upstate New York and they used to, they were abolitionists and they would like host Frederick Douglas at their

house and like host lectures and give people, you know, and host all of these abolitionists. Yeah. And so I was like, it was interesting to be connected, to be attracted to Haiti because I feel like they are sort of like this, you know, story of freedom that got derailed. I'm pissed off about this all the time, Jen. So much untold history that just gets swept under the rug. That's powerful stories.

Well, it's because they're, you know, a huge nation of, you know, Black people, essentially, who were winning. And no one can have that. It's just such a shame. It is a shame. So have you actually been over there? Oh yeah. I've been three or four times. It's hard to remember. Cause we have, we just keep planning to go again and again and they keep saying, Nope, you can't come. It's just, there's too much civil unrest right now it's just yeah yeah so I love it and when I get off the plane I just I feel just so happy there and I just feel like you know it's it's hard to be a white person going into that environment and I think that that's something

that's been really great about what we do is like we've created a community there that we're just deeply a part of and I'm sure a lot of folks that are connected with communities there feel the same way but it's like we're working together and we're collaborating and we're providing resources so that you know they can live the lives that they truly want to live you know as opposed to in you know imposing any kind of ideas on them we're just like yeah what are your interests what do you want to do here let's, as opposed to, you know, imposing any kind of ideas on them or just like, yeah, what are your interests? What do you want to do here? Let's raise some money so you can go make that happen. Well, I think it's so beautiful that you just said when you land there, you're happy because I have not heard that very often, especially from, from someone that's not from there or lives there, because quite frankly, a lot of people that I've, I've run, run into that

have been there and say the opposite, that it's very depressing and that they leave their feeling so heavy hearted because it's just, there's so many children. I mean, what is it like statistically like 70% children, like running the streets without homes. And I mean, without parents and I mean, it's so sad, but I, but I get what you're saying. It's because you're over there with a purpose. You're trying to help turn that pain into purpose and to help. So that's beautiful that you're able to, to feel that way. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. It's very love focused when we're there. So I feel like we're, we're all just like, we're bringing love like we're bringing love they're bringing love we're sharing love and you just leave I feel leave feeling very full um you know and they're you know it might be

a little bit different because we you know have stabilized our community there we've helped them you know have like a safe house to live in they have enough food they're you know we pay the staff a living wage. Like we're, we're giving them opportunities that especially like in the countryside and stuff, people just don't have access to that, you know, infrastructure that, you know, creates a little bit more of a sense of safety maybe where they, you know, but then again, you know, these are just really joyful people. And so we're just being joyful together. And I can see how a lot of people feel that way.

And I do have experiences talking with people on the plane and in the airport, et cetera. You always gravitate toward one another and you're like, oh, what are you here for? What are you doing? And, you know, a lot of people do express a lot of sadness and pain. But I feel like I have an opportunity to transcend that together. And so that's what I try to focus on when we're there. It's a whole nother world growing up here in America. And, you know, then there, and so I think about like, when I was younger, I had a lot of privilege. I had, we had a lot of privilege. We really didn't and totally unknown. Like, I was younger, I had a lot of privilege. We had a lot of privilege. We really did.

And totally unknown. Like I wish I would have known these things as a child. You know, I wish that I wasn't protected from all of the pain from the world. You know, but I think I just didn't know. You know, they really protect us from all of the the bad the you know the truth they only want us to know about the good stuff yeah I mean obviously it depends on what kind of childhood you had I feel like I had access to pain pretty early did you oh lucky you I'm like okay the world can be very painful, at least in my milieu, my little space. Yeah. I mean,

I think that that is something that, you know, in this culture, we, we shield kids from so much, and we don't want them to experience things. We don't want them to eat dirt, but they need to have germs that we don't want them to, you know. But I also want them to know that there are starving, you know, children across the world. So you should really appreciate your fruity bubbles. Yeah. You know, you know, that's, you know, a privilege. You know, I just think that we grew up not understanding how much privilege we have here

as a free country, you know, and especially as white people. Totally. You know, that was a big part of my journey you know understanding that I that I truly am a result of white privilege but I love to talk about butterflies and bullies how long did it take you to write this book well I it took me about 10 years to write it and you know it started with just journaling and, you know, getting my own feelings and ideas out there around my own experience being bullied in fifth grade. And then, you know, eventually I'm like, I think I need to write a book about this, you know. And I felt that at the time.

And I wrote this book a long time ago. And there's kind of a bit of a story about how it emerged just now. I wrote it because at the time, I just didn't see a lot of resources out there for girls who were being bullied. And I felt like I had an opportunity to just share my own feelings around it so that other people didn't feel so alone. And that was really my purpose behind it. It's like, I just want to get all the pain on the page so that another little girl who's going through the experience can be like,

oh, okay, I'm not bad and wrong because I'm feeling this. Someone else has felt this feeling too. I'm not alone. How many of us wrote to Dear Diary and told this to? Did you have your old diaries? No, I didn't have my old diaries. A lot of the book has, you know, it's creative nonfiction, you know, and all the stories are based on true things and real people, but there's a lot of, you know, creative narrative in there that is not my own experience. But I was processing all of my experience while I was writing this. And

especially, I wrote a lot of it during my 20s and 30s. I was feeling very, very heavy, exploring during therapy and other things. You know, like, why did this happen to me? And how is why is it I'm carrying it around still? And that's something that I've learned through the years is that when, you know, women especially are bullied when they're young, it impacts so much of their adult life if they don't heal through it. And I didn't know that at the time, but I was just sort of intuitively doing my own healing process around my story. Yeah. And then I wrote my book. I submitted it actually to some agents and I got representation. At the time, I guess, I can't even tell you when this was, I guess it was the early 2000s. My agent just had a really hard time selling it because she's like, it's for adults,

but it's also for kids. And just like you had the experience of having this very nostalgic read where it gave you a sense of like, oh, okay, like I need to pause and think about my own upbringing. This wasn't a time when, you know, adults were reading young, young adult literature the way that we do now. And so anyway, she had a hard time selling it. We worked together for a while. It didn't sell. And so I just kind of put it in a drawer and I felt really, really complete with it. I was like, this is great. I'm really proud of myself. Just move on to the next project. And literally two years ago, a year and a half ago, my husband was like, wait, you said you wrote a book. What is this book that you wrote?

Let me read it. And so I printed it out and I gave it to him and he's really well-read and he's like, this is really great. You should do something with it. And at the time I was working on getting sober and you know how that is. It gives you a lot of free time. You're like, what am I going to do with all this time I have? And so I, you know, worked on sprucing it up and worked with the designer and then I self-published it. And then I've been on this journey of getting it out there into the world over the last year and a half. And it's been a really fun project for the pandemic times and been getting a lot of really great feedback. And also a lot of women, I've had asked a lot of women who are experts in bullying to read it and to give me their feedback.

And they're like, yeah, this is great. had asked a lot of women who are experts in bullying to read it and to give me their feedback. And they're like, yeah, this is great. This is a really great story about a girl finding her own inner voice and her own resilience as she's dealing with something really trying. And that was really the essence of it for me. I'm like, oh, people are getting it. It is about finding how do you listen to yourself so that you can search within as opposed to trying to find some security. You know, like you have to like yourself, right? You don't have to worry so much about what other people are thinking about you, but how

do you learn to do that? And I feel like journaling has been a big part of that process. It just gives you some objectivity around what's happening in your life and a sense of like, okay, like, okay, so I'm writing this, is this true? Like, you know, and learning to like, tell new stories about yourself. And that was really, you know, the kind of the long and short of it, I suppose. But yeah, I guess in my own journey, journaling and self-reflection has just been such a huge part of the healing process.

Yeah. You know, I've said this many, many episodes before, but one of my favorite things is the peas. And I always change it like from five to six to seven peas, depending on the day, because sometimes I forget and sometimes I come up with new cool ones, but it's taking, you know, the pen to paper takes away the power, it gives you perspective. And then, you know, you can pick up the phone if need be for support and then pray on it if you need to. And I always thought that was so cute.

And I loved my peas, but what was really, really inspiring was when we had on Dr. Chris Lee, who explained the science behind what journaling does for the brain. It's so important to do. So yeah, I love that you journaled and then your journal turned into this book. I mean, it's so amazing. Dear diary. Well, dear diary is just basically like dear Shanna, dear Jen. Totally. It's like your supportive self that you get to trust fully. Well, hoping that no one else will read it, but still you're trusting that paper and you may not be able to trust your parents at the time or your best friends or boyfriends or whoever. And so it's so important, but we don't realize no one tells us

that that's actually ourself. What do you think about that? Because I wish someone would have kind of explained that to me. I think I would have had a little bit more self-trust. Yeah. I really feel like you just hit the nail on the head. It's like, why aren't we training kids to hold a pen and a piece of paper or a pencil? You're holding a pencil right now, Shanna. It's so great. But it's like, you know, just put that on the paper and then just say, yeah, dear Jen, dear Jenny, dear, you know, my wildest self, dear, my most loving self, dear, you know,

dear God, dear, you know, whomever. It's like, I need help. You know, this is what I think is happening. You know, what is, what does this mean? You know, what can I make it mean? What, what would be a more powerful, you know, response to this? Again, it's just like listening. I love just writing and not having any, you know, just free writing, like morning pages. There's, you know, automatic writing, essentially where you're just like, just writing whatever comes out, and then just rereading it. And it's just that's a beautiful

form of listening. And essentially, like you just said, you're just listening to yourself. Yeah. And it is, it's a form of communication. And it's something that I always thought that I really sucked at, because I always had a hard time like talking to people. So Kinsley's dad, my youngest daughter, her dad and I, we've been together for like 15 years this time. But he was like my first kiss and I was like 12. You know, I've known him since second grade. I thought a lot about him when I was reading your book. You know, I licked his blood.

He was a dare, you know I licked his blood he was a dare you know stuff like that I remember you know always I always wrote him letters but that was my way of communicating it was stuff I couldn't say to him because I'd get you know he'd end up making me forget everything I was going to say or my throat would all clog up and throat chakra would close. And so, but I used to feel like it wasn't his way of like hearing me, but it was my way of speaking. It was just like such a clusterfuck when it was, but I just finally just told him like, if I take the time to write you, you must take the time to listen because it means it's important, but it comes from being a child, like always journaling, always had a diary always. Yeah. I used to write a lot to

boyfriends too. I've felt the exact same way. I'm like, I don't know how to say this, but I, but also I feel like writing it's very, you can do away with the ego and you can really just kind of center in your heart and also it just it gives us a moment of pause you know you're like I need to write on this blank piece of paper I'm not typing on a keyboard I'm not typing on my phone I'm you know I'm I'm just connecting with this other like material thing and it, I feel like it is this channel, right. You know, that we're opening ourselves up to. And, you know, if you want to be really intentional about it, yeah, you can be like, this is why I'm doing this. I'm doing this so I can really hear my inner voice, you know, or you can just like write down a bunch of like, why did this happen? And I learned very

quickly over the course of, you know, very quickly over the course of decades, not to ask why so much, because the why was just giving me answers of like me trying to like logistic, like use my logic or justify what was happening or, or be mean to myself, you know, like, oh, it's happening because I suck or I did something wrong or whatever. Like, just don't ask why. Just, you know, maybe ask a little bit more of a powerful question like, you know, what can I do now? Or, you know, where do I go from here? You know, or what would be the best advice I'd give myself or just different powerful questions to ask yourself instead of like, why is this happening to me? Because it's a really disempowering because there is no why necessarily.

It's just what your, your, your soul had planned for you or whatever. It's your journey that you need to work through right now and learn something from. Like, I love the Rumi quote. Rumi says, life is rigged in your favor. You know, it's happening for you, not to you. Yeah. The why is like the ego trying to figure out the ego. Yeah. And it's just like a big puzzle. There's no answer. True. You know, the, the quote that you just said, I read that recently and I really liked that, you know, it's happening for you,

but when you're in the shit storm, it sure does not feel like it's happening for you. You know, I always tell Shannon, it's so hard to see like that big picture when you're, when you're sitting in it. And when someone has been bullied at such a young age, does that ever actually like leave you? I mean, I, I feel like, first of all, I was my own biggest bully. I've been bullied by a lot of men, but I've definitely of all the people that have bullied me, I have bullied myself 100% the most, but I get triggered. Like last night at work, this girl was kind of bullying me. He was like half my age and was just very disrespectful to me. And it triggered so much in me about the pattern of allowing people to trigger me for so long. You know, what do you do in moments like

that? How do you stay away from triggers? Does the triggers for you actually mean that you need more work, more healing? Does it ever end? I, you know, I can't answer that. It does. I mean, it hasn't yet. Recently, I've had some pretty big triggers myself and I find like, it's like, it puts me right into trauma and I've found myself like just hiding, you know, like just running away from it, which is what I always did anyway. Right.

I would just go run away, hide in the bathroom, hide in my closet. I hid in our van. We have like a West Valley. I like hid in there for like an hour to get away from my house. And I'm just like in there, I'm like rocking back and forth. I'm crying. I'm, I'm trying to breathe, But I feel like over the years, I've learned to deal with trauma, like step by step, where it's just like, okay, got to breathe. What just happened? I'm just feeling really triggered by, you know, X, Y, and Z. You know, I'm feeling bullied, like, like, I just have to calm myself down first. And then figure out how I'm going to, you know, confront the situation or not, you know, and some situations need to be confronted by you just like standing up for yourself and speaking your own truth.

And other times you can just let them go. Sometimes I'll have to say, oh, yep, that was the bully girl in me getting triggered, you know, and well, there she is, you know, and like, just be like, it's okay. And I too have had a huge past of bullying myself and beating myself up. And I can't tell you how many of my girlfriends are like, Jen, you just have to stop beating yourself up. I'm like, I don't know how, you know, cause it's just like, these are the stories I tell myself. So, so much of it is just about getting calm and then just saying, okay, well, what do I need in this situation? What is going to help me right now?

Because I'm no good to anyone else when I'm freaking out, which I definitely have a tendency to do. And I get really defensive about things too. So my, you know, it's just like, I'm constantly like negotiating these walls that I'm putting up and then trying to figure out, well, is this a healthy wall? Is this a good boundary that I'm putting up? Or is this just me trying to run away from something or feeling angry at someone and like working on my passive aggressive behaviors? The situation with your little brother, I have a little brother. So I saw my little brother. It was so annoying when I, I mean, it might be still annoying. Sorry, Mikey, if you're listening, but the time where you kind

of blew up on him because of your bad day, you know, and I think that that happens, bully people, bully people, not that you were bullying your brother, but you know, it is kind of a thing, you know, when a a person is under stressed that's kind of what happens they start to need a place to put it and they put it on the wrong people or the people have nothing to do with it and I saw I saw that I appreciated I you know you kind of showing that because that's true yeah and I think that that you know just kind of getting back to like the whole conversation around like spirituality and you know know, soul purpose, et cetera, is like the more that we learn about ourselves and the more we learn about where, you know, like what is our journey

and like it's been getting more clear over the years that my journey is about love and joy. And like many of, I mean, I feel like that's why we're here, you know, and it's like the messages just keep on coming. And so I had this really amazing therapist who he comes from kind of more of a Native American tradition. And he's like, Jen, you're a rock, you're a deer, you're a stream, you know, you're, you're the wind, you know, he's like, you're of everything. He's like, so does this path have a heart? And I have to, you just have to, I just have to come back to that all the time. Like, is this a loving action?

Is this a loving path? If it doesn't have a heart, how can I just either create a path with a heart or turn around and just, or stop and just wait for the next path to emerge, you know, and especially in relationships with other people. And I still do this to this day. I mean, I definitely can blow up at people. It's just can feel like this rage just emerges out of nowhere, you know, it's the pain body. Right. Yeah. And like, you know, I've done, wow, at this point, 30 years of yoga, I've done, you know, like, you know, so much soul healing. I've talked

to so many experts. I've, you know, it's just know, so much soul healing. I've talked to so many experts. I've, you know, it's just like, and it's still there. And then if you're like me, when you do lose your shit, then you'd beat yourself up for it because you're like, I've had all these years, I've had all these resources, I've done all this work. And then just now I allowed, I allowed myself to let my emotions get the best of me. Yeah. I have a couple of suggestions if you're interested. I mean, I totally get it.

You have to feel it, right? So for one, just like, and not judge your feelings. And I spent a lot of time either a journaling things, right. And just getting it on the paper, burning paper, you know, getting it out, et cetera, and not putting it on someone else. And they also have a magic box and it's just a pretty box. It's actually a Tiffany's box that someone put like a non Tiffany's gift in for me, but I'm like, you know, it's one of those beautiful, it's a really big Tiffany's box. So I'm like, Ooh, something expensive was in this box. I don't know what it was, but she put like a scarf in it for me. And I put on it what's in this box is. And I don't remember where I learned this, but someone it's, it's kind of, you know, magical. And I put inside

the box, all the things that I want, you know, these are the things I want to be. So, and, you know, whether it's pieces of paper that have just things on it, like I want, you know, these are the things I want to be so. And, you know, whether it's pieces of paper that have just things on it, like I want, you know, peace in my life and in my relations, you know, I, I want a comfortable home that makes me feel secure and safe and happy. Oh, that's what I really want right now. So I put them in the magic box and I gave the box these, you know, I just said, please, you know, help me, you know, spirits, ancestor is, you know, whomever my most benevolent highest guides. These are my desires. Please make them so because what's in here is so anyway, I, I swear it works.

I don't know what it is. But I highly recommend just making some time for yourself to just create a magic space for you to get what you want. I love that. So it's like manifesting it in the magic box and turning in your intentions and your desires into magic. Yeah. It's such a complex thing when you think about like trauma and, you know, the experiential trauma that we have when our circumstances aren't like aligning with what we want. And just the trauma that like, as you're saying, like white supremacy is put on our lives and capitalism and all of those things that like are, you know, creating discomfort and dis-ease for all of us. Right. And then to say like, well, just write it down and manifest it. You know, it's, it's kind of ridiculous, but I just, I feel like there is power in giving yourself a moment of pause and just getting some clarity about like what it is that you want. And then just even if it's five seconds and just then being like, okay, so then what's

the next best action to take? You know, it's easier said than done. And I know that like a lot of people struggle with just having that five seconds of quiet to even just sit down and do that. I mean, I struggle with it too. I'll be like, oh, I should have like written it down. Why did I write these things? Or how come I'm not, you know, how come I don't have more clarity about what I want or, you know, whatever it is, but it's just time and time again, at least in my life. And I feel like I started off with some pretty shitty circumstances,

you know, and that, you know, shitty circumstances still arise pretty shitty day on Sunday, actually. And I was just like, okay, what, you know, this is happening, you know, what can I do to, you know, turn it around a little bit, you know, even if it's just a minute amount, you know, how can I change my perspective on what's happening so that it's happening for me instead of to me? Yeah. Jen, now I, anytime something bad comes at me, like some days, you know, just having those days for like, are you kidding me? Like what is happening? I'm just like, okay, I know there's a lesson coming out of this man. He always talks about the lesson and the lesson. I'm looking for it. Talk about things coming full circle. The other day I was,

I was getting ready to do my blog on raw, which is real authentic words. I do it with my heart pouring open. And I started writing this story. And here we go back to writing about this time I was standing with a tray of drinks and I had to wobble over to set them down. And I remember feeling like so embarrassed and so disrespected, but I protected him. I told the people, the bouncers, no, it's okay. It's okay. And I protected him. Well, then to talk about it going into a further healing process and what the writing did for me is as I was writing it, I had this memory that I had forgotten about where me and some girls played a trick on this girl on our basketball team. And they all, we all planned like they had deep pants her. And I went and I found her on Facebook and I sent her like an apology because I realized I, that was bullying and that she might've felt the same exact thing I felt that day.

She hasn't seen the message and she hasn't replied, but I was like, even though we were young children, that is no excuse. And she could have carried that pain of what I did to her for all of these years. It's really hard for me to look in the mirror and face that and go, oh my God, you did to her what he did to you. And then to be able to forgive myself and to find a place of forgiveness for him and then see this crazy pattern. But it was all in the writing that put me into that place. That is so cool. First of all, I just love that you write your raw, real words. That's like so huge. I love that. And guess what? I also got pants, but I was in my thirties and it was the after party of a wedding

and by a guy who just thought he was being so funny. And I was just so hurt and humiliated. You know, I kind of can't even remember what happened. But I know that I was just so angry. And I just, again, I hid in the bedroom. I'm remembering it now. And then everyone's like, where did she go? How come she's not out here? It's like partying with us or whatever.

And I'm like, excuse me, you know? And I think I went out there and I was like, I need you to apologize to me. Like this was so wrong what you just did. But the apology piece is just so healing when you, as someone who, you know, bullied someone in some way can just say, I'm sorry. And, you know, I didn't know what I was doing. It's healing on both sides. And so, you know, whether or not she gets that message or not, and hopefully she will, it's out there and maybe energetically she's feeling it. Maybe it's bringing something up for her. I think it was released in divine timing. I was doing the work on myself and had to take a

look in the mirror at the fact that I inflicted that same sort of embarrassment and pain onto someone else. And I hope she's feeling it energetically because I mean, truly, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I can't even imagine how horrible, like, how do you find forgiveness for those people that bullied you? Well, I feel like, you know, the lesson has been that there's shame on every side of the story. Right. And that we're all feeling the shame. I confronted one of the girls that bullied me when I was in college. I like ran into her at like a bar. I hadn't seen her in a really long time. And I'm like, do you remember this? You know, it was, it's just, it's still with me and

it really hurts. And she's like, I don't know what you're talking about. And I got like, okay, she doesn't remember this. Like, it is so real for me. It is so huge. It is such a huge part of my like identity about my pain, like what I'm going, it impacts all my relationships. It makes me feel, you know, like, I don't know if I want to live, you know, all these things because it kept perpetuating in itself. Like I would get into like, you know, kind of bullying relationships with boyfriends or with other friends, et cetera. And it felt like that was like a root cause was this experience with her and that she didn't remember it was just such a wake up call. Yeah. Some of us are just oblivious

because we're going through our own shit. I had someone tell me, I mean, I had no idea even who he was, but I guess I had told him that he, that he smelled or something. And then he was worried about it forever. And I didn't even remember it. I didn't even know what happened. Like literally, I was like, you sure it was me? Like, I didn't even know, but he really did know it was me. And I absolutely was not a mean person. I probably just was like, what is that smell? You know, or who knows? And boys do smell. I have sons, they smell. I tell them they smell too. And well, what's crazy is in your situation, Shanna, if your intention was in like this place of, of just stating a fact, like something smells, but you know, then that's not yours to carry. I know,

it could have very well been. I just don't remember. Yeah, no, for sure. And you're right. There's shame on all ends. So, so what, what are tools that you do for that? Well, I think that getting understanding about why people bully in general is really important. Like, so a lot of the reasons why girls bully in particular is that like they're jealous or, you know, they're trying to assert their power. They feel a loss of power and they want to like reassert it. And then obviously there's just kind of like a random ego responses to things that, that we don't even know we're doing that we're doing. Right. And so a lot of the time when girls are bullies, they're, they're not being necessarily intentionally mean,

they're just reacting to something that they want that they don't have. But when there is malicious intent behind the bullying, like that's like a whole, you know, other realm, right? Where like a girl is being like purposefully evil, etc. So for me, I guess what's really been helpful is like getting that they've got a lot of pain over there too. And their pain is what's causing them to act the way they're acting. And so it's like, it's not just like there's shame on both sides, because I feel like embarrassed that this happened to me. They feel shameful because they did it. It's like, I'm feeling so much pain over here, because it happened. And they're feeling pain because of something else that's going on in their life. And then they're just like you were

saying earlier, Shanna, we just put our pain on other people. And so, so much of it is, is so unconscious is the way I look at it that later on we can begin to be more conscious about who we're being in our relationships with one another. And again, it kind of goes back to that loving intent, at least for me, it's like, I can't tell you how many times I've had people tell me, oh my God, Jen, you said this thing and it just made such a difference and this and this. And I'm like, I said something that made a difference to you. Like, when was this? You were just talking. And so like really being clear about what we're putting out there. I always say to people, our words create our worlds, you know, how people say like your thoughts create your reality, et cetera. It's like, well, our words are creating things. And so, and that's, you know,

it's like that whole thing. Oh, it's spelling, it's making spells, it's magic, you know, or whatever. But it's like, yeah, it's kind of real, you know? So who, who are we going to be? And I guess like forgiveness is, it's one thing, right? It's like an act. It's a, it's a, you know, it's just like, it's sometimes it doesn't have so much meaning behind it. Cause you're like, well, okay, I forgive you. But like, there's all this feeling that's associated with it. There's all this like reality or something that's going on inside of you that you just can't reconcile with that forgiveness. And then there's like our soul journeys, right? It's like, well, what am I learning from this? You know, like, how can I transcend this? How can

I get what I need from this experience and move on to something else? You know, they're having their experience, they're having their life. And it doesn't really actually have anything to do with me, except for I'm getting triggered, and I have to deal with that. You know, and now people are having their bullying, you know, behind the screen, you know, it's not even to the face, you know, it could be strangers bullying you. Right. I mean, Mandy and I have, you know, experienced that from, you know, people about, you know, the stuff we talk about in our podcast, I see my daughter and she's been doing it from, you know, gosh, probably even, you know, seven, you know, I see her sticking up for people who

are bullying on social media and stuff like that, you know, or on her games and stuff. You're bullying, you're bullying. It seems like there's more awareness of bullying. I didn't even know what the hell a bully was at seven years old, but they do. That's really good. So people are talking about it. People with special needs are more accepted. And I have a son who's autistic. So it made my children a little bit more empathic. They really are. You know, they would never, you know, allow bullying around because they had a little brother.

So they always were conscious to that. But you're right. It's the awareness. It's the awareness piece. And I think as, you know, the generations shift, we're bringing things out from the shadows, right? Like there's just so many things that now it's like, I mean, the kids today, the things they talk about, I'm like, you guys are so involved.

I, you know, you never would have talked about this stuff, you know, and you're like, you guys are so accepting of one another. I mean, I have lots of young people in my life and like, I'm just constantly amazed by like how mature they are, how loving they are to one another. They love the earth. Yeah.

And they just, they're feeling with their hearts. And I don't know. I just feel like we're on a trajectory towards shifting that. And that's why I think so many women our age have been attracted to my book because it's like, I think we're the generation that needs to be laying around it. Not them, you know? True. I wanted to give it to all my middle school friends that I still talk to. I swear. I just really do. Yeah. You know, I have to agree. Definitely our age group, there was so much bullying. You know, my daughter was bullied

for a short period of time at a new school that she went to in Washington. And as a mother, I felt so hopeless. I would cry myself to sleep at night. There were so many questions around it. Like, do I keep her there and let her keep learning and how to handle it? Or do I move her or do like how it's so hard as a parent to watch a child be bullied. And like I said, I only went through it for a short period of time. Like I can't even imagine like parents that see their children go through that for like a super long time or their whole life. Oh my gosh, that would hurt. Yeah. Give them space to talk about it and not try to fix it or change it or like, just give them the space to do that and have their authentic experience. But,

you know, a lot of times, you know, families do move their kids out of the school out of, you know, the neighborhood, etc. Because it is that extreme, just what you've experienced. I'm a part of this group called the kind campaign, the women who started it, and they're like, 20 years younger than me, I guess. And in their early 20s, they did this documentary. And I mean, it's definitely still rampant in the United States. It's not like it's gone or anything like that. And girls are experiencing the exact same things that you're talking about and parents are dealing with this. But I think that we're talking about it in ways that we haven't talked about it in the past. And there's so many more resources, like what you were saying, Shanna, about your daughter, like standing up for people. There's the bystander revolution it's this whole idea around you know stand up don't you know

say something don't just sit by and allow it to happen and you know what as a country we should be doing this as well because i have to say i just had this conversation with my son two nights ago i said i'm finally finished with my ancestry i made a little side series and he's like I really think this that you should think about this mom it's very controversial you're a white woman and no buddy must hear a white woman talk about race and I was like and the problem is that no one talks about it that is the problem then is everyone scared to talk about it. And then what happens is, is that this wound just stays open. Well, and then, you know, Shanna, it's so true. You got to bring awareness to it. People just want to shove it under the rug. But then what I'm seeing happen, and this is totally on a different

level is look at Bill Cosby case. I saw so many women triggered by that because they finally did find their voice and they finally did stand up. And then now they're all feeling empty right now because the system failed them. So it's like, then people are afraid to speak up and bring awareness to it. And it's just this odd space. Yeah. I think we're in a transition zone. I mean, we, we need to like, you know, as a country, I feel like this is why there's so much dismantling going on. You know, there's so much that's being brought to the surface.

It's like, we're seeing all the pain points, all the areas where we're like, this doesn't work anymore. This isn't working, you know, this isn't working. And so we've got to get through this kind of like dark night of the soul as like a species essentially, so that we can start creating the worlds that we want to see. You know, I humbly went back to waitressing and I'm the oldest one and every single one around me has colored hair, blue, green, yellow tattoos all over huge holes in their ears, nose rings, they're rocking their necklaces and our

managers let them do it because weird is being embraced and it's nose rings, they're rocking their necklaces and our managers let them do it because weird is being embraced and it's being encouraged and they're expressing themselves. And I love seeing it. And of course we get in the little like 80 year old, old men that are like, Oh God, what are you wearing? That's hideous. What's hanging out of your nose? I mean, they don't get it, you know, but it's okay. I love the shift to Jen. Do you have your book by you? I don't, I don't. Okay. I was going to ask you to read it, but I'll read it just because it's so simple. And I love it. This book is dedicated to all the bullied girls out there. You are not alone. You are not broken. You are beautiful, whole, and full of possibilities. Hold your head high. Start journaling.

Speak only kind words to yourself. You are strong. You are constantly evolving and changing, just like the caterp simply and beautifully written. What was your inspiration around the title? And can you talk a little bit about this picture that's on the front? Sure. So the title of Butterflies and Bullies. So originally the book, as I was writing it in so many different iterations, like I'm remembering like even writing notes as I'm like driving in my car. I got a butterfly tattoo when I was in like 25 and it's, you know, it's kind of in your basic tramp stamp area. And for a long time I was calling the book the butterfly tattoo for me, that tattoo meant that transformation was possible for myself. I had gotten to a place at like 25, 26, where I was like, I don't have to be this bully girl anymore.

And it's like I can actually get to somewhere else. So I was just like an homage to that butterfly tattoo. That was the name of the book for a long, long time. To homage to that, you know, possibility of transformation. Because that's what I wanted the book to be about. Like there is some way that you can transcend this experience and move on to something else. So, and then just had a lot of different names. And then eventually I just kind of settled on butterflies and bullies, because it is it's like of the, you know, the people who are

transforming, and then the bullies who are, you know, kind of out there causing it, I guess, you know, and that's where it landed. And then the photo on the front. So there is a main, you know, there are two main characters, Molly and Nicole, and they're like best friends. And after they go to a new school, they, you know, end up sort of like having different experiences that sort of tear them apart. And that picture is of me and my best friend that I'd had since kindergarten. We're holding tennis rackets. And we're, you know, just kind of standing in front of like her grandpa's car, essentially thinking we're looking really cute and having a great time. And then, you know, the photo is ripped on the cover, which just to kind of show that kind of like, you know, sort of the break for me, it was the biggest heartache I'd

ever had. My biggest heartbreak of my life was losing my first best friend and thinking like, why doesn't she love me anymore? So that's what the book, you know, it's really about that first heartbreak. Like you're, you're in this space before you turn 10, essentially, you're just like living life. You're like, woohoo, life is great. Like whatever, you know, you've got things going on in your life, but you're not really noticing how you're different from other people. But as soon as we turn 10, we start in, you know, we start getting like, oh, these kids have more, these kids have less, these kids look different. This is different, you know, and it's just, you know, it's's just changed and it was really abrupt um for me at least you know I was like oh I I'm not living in this like la la land of like just like me and her being like best friends and something came and and tore it apart and so that's what that picture is

and the book too it's like oh Shanna you're so sorry i know i'm like i keep imagining kensley this is happening to her right now her little best friend they've been best friends since they're like nine months old and like other friends that they'll be hanging out with all of a sudden they're being kind of mean to each other we're not talking and it's just slowly happening yeah the story that i'd like to share with our listeners, if you were the bully, you have no idea the rippling effect you can have on a person's life. I mean, my very, very, very best friend growing up, we were at a freshman party with a bunch of seniors and one of the senior quarterback took one of her rings off and put it on his finger.

And he forgot to give it back. And his girlfriend, who was very popular, found out. And I'll never forget the day. We were walking down the hall. And they jumped her. All the girls jumped her. And they pulled out her hair. And they beat the crap out of her.

She didn't come back to school for weeks. And do you know that after that, she would never lift her head up again. She would walk down the hall. She started wearing all like black. She started doing tons of drugs and she ended up as an heroin addict all from that one day. She was never the same friend again. I couldn't even reach her. She was in such a dark place. It was heartbreaking. Yeah. And I mean, I went to a very dark place for a really long time.

So I guess from the time I was 10 until I was like 26, 25, that's what that tattoo was for me. It was like, I'm emerging from this dark, dark place. I become the butterfly, right? And I was allowing myself space to become the butterfly again and again and again, anytime I needed it. Because I had thought about suicide several times. I totally was, you know, just alcohol and marijuana. And those were my big ones. Giving myself, you know, any excuse to go into a darker, darker, darker place, because it was so comfortable there, you know, it was like, well, at least I know what's going to happen here. You know, if I emerge from this, like, I don't know what's on the other side. But that's what we have to trust is that there isn't another side. And like, we might have to go into the

darkness again, which is why the butterfly metaphor is so great. Because we are we're constantly cocooning. And we're constantly cocooning and we're constantly like in this uncomfortable place of growth and rebirth, you know? And if we can just like give ourselves that space, it's not fun. I mean, I'm a big baby today, but I knew before I even got on because it's a subject that, and your book especially, brought me to so many different places. You know, my own, but then also like my kids, my younger kids, my older kids, my, my son has special needs. I mean, I have a video that would break your fucking heart. You know, I mean, he like was pacing around the house, yelling out every bad game anyone had ever called him

you know and he doesn't communicate very well his emotions so he would never come home and say this is what people are calling me it was pretty intense slim jam french fry and he was just going off I mean it was crazy and we're just like oh my god you know because he didn't want to go to school the next day it was his first day of school yeah we have just a lot of pain you know and we deal with it in different ways right and I feel like my experience has been about okay how do I you know especially I guess for me okay, how do I, you know, especially I guess for me, it's like I dove into, you know, spirituality and philosophy and just like started seeking somebody's advice.

How do you live life? Right. Cause we're not taught necessarily like, oh, here's, these are the rules. Here's what we do. Right. And when I started to see over and over and over again, just throughout like time and everyone else's messages around just like love and joy, that it is our right to feel that I was like, okay, how do I get there? You know, like, what is it that I have to do? And I know for me, it was just like,

just tons and tons of like affirmations. and I also did a plant medicine ceremony when I was 40. Huachuma, essentially San Pedro cactus and I had a cellular experience of happiness that was so deep and I was like okay like how can I carry this forward in my life you're like can I eat this every single day it felt like it was my right to have that but when you grow up in a situation where you know I had I grew up in a home where there was a lot of like other incestual trauma going on that was being played out by my parents, not like really authentic, good communication going on, you know, and then you see it repeated at school. I went to public school for everything. You know, it's just a lot of chaos going on. Not that private schools don't have chaos. I don't know.

I didn't have that experience, but just chaos, chaos, chaos. And it's like, how do you find, you know, your own sense of calm in that, you know, and your own sense of self when it's just like, there's just chaos being perpetuated everywhere you go. Like I said, for me, it was just really the journaling and stuff that, and just getting that other people, you know, were so adamant about love being a path. It's like, okay, how do I, where, how do I do this? How do I be more loving to myself myself I have a sticky on my in my bathroom next to my mirror that just says incessant kindness like to myself to others essentially is what it's about like I don't even know what that means like I don't I'm not 100%

sure how to achieve it all the time but that's the goal the goal you know it's on a sticky note it's not a sticky note exactly and now it's time for break that shit down you know one thing that's been since like the last few minutes of our conversation my heart has just been racing. And I feel like it's because we've been getting at something really raw today. And I feel like, you know, the three of us are in kind of like similar emotional spaces right now. And it's so important to me, like one of my greatest and truest like values of life is just being real. And I feel like if we can just all be real with each other and it's okay to cry, like, you know,

while you're having a conversation with people, it's okay to like get nervous and get flustered and, you know, and just be ourselves. It's like, if we can just live in a world where we can just not judge people for having those experiences, I just feel like we would be in a better place, you know? And it's not to say it's going on all the time, but we just, you know, we live in just such a world of like, you know, perfection and, you know, we're always making ourselves wrong for doing things, like just being real, whatever that means, like that is, it's always on my heart and it's always really, really important to me.

And for me, that is like the key to freedom. And, you know, how can we all be more free? How can we all just be more ourselves? And that's, what's on my heart. The good, the bad and the ugly. It's all okay. People let it out. Let it out. This is a topic that is so needed to be taught at such a young age, right along with self-love. Cause if you loved yourself,

you wouldn't treat other people like this. And so again, Shanna and I always go back to self-love and awareness. If we could just teach that, I think it's so much more important than math and science. And I'm not saying those aren't important, but I'm saying, come on people, this, this has got to be number one to get to that real place that you're talking about. So thank you for being real. Thank you for creating a book that invites people into your pain, but helps them to do a little work on their own and reflect and I love the good old rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous we have all these cute little quotes and one of them is what other people think of you is none of your business and damn I need to I need to get

better at that Jen thank you so much for coming on where can our listeners find you? Where can they buy your book? Thank you so much, Mandy and Shanna. Well, you can go to butterfliesbullies.com. That's where all the info is and the audio book is coming out. Oh, I can't wait for that. But also tell everybody where they can actually get coaching with you. Loveandactioncoaching.com. Thank you so much. I think your book is absolutely beautiful. I just really hit my heart. Thank you. Thank you so much, you guys. I really appreciate you having me on. And I just loved this conversation. I feel like I really needed it today. Shanna, I look forward to hearing more about your journey with your ancestry as I was. Oh, well, thank you. Well, pretty soon she's going to have it on Patreon so people can go see I'm throwing it out there, Shanna.

Yeah. Okay, I edit the podcast. So thank you so much for everything you're doing. I love listening to your podcast because I feel like you're so authentically putting it out there. Just sort of like what this sense of soul journey is all about. And you're just living in it. Again again it's not like a destination right it's just it's a path that we're all following thank you hey did you know that sense of soul now has a patreon where you can get exclusive episodes mini series that mandy and i have been working on for a long time that we can't

wait to share with you monthly Monthly readings, Sense of Soul sacred circles, workshops, behind the scene clips, and much more. Hop on Sense of Soul Patreon right now and sign up. Thanks for being with us today. We hope you will come back next week. If you like what you hear, don't forget to rate, like, and subscribe. Thank you. We rise to lift you up. Thanks for listening.