Sense of Soul - Exploring Bibical and Ancient Mesopotamian Narratives with Paul Wallis

Episode Date: April 25, 2025

Today on Sense of Soul we have back to the third time the host and founder of the 5th Paul Wallis! He is the international best selling author of The Eden Series, and he’s back to tell us about his recent book THE EDEN ENIGMA Do ancient carvings in the mountains of Türkiye carry memories of E.T. contact from the dawn of civilization? This book will take you on a mind-altering journey in Türkiye and Armenia, back to the silent spring which followed the most recent ice age, back to a lost civilization to unearth vital information concerning the emergence of humanity. Paul is not only a fabulous author but a  researcher, speaker and author on spirituality and mysticism. He is a healing practitioner and has worked as a theological educator and as an Archdeacon for the Anglican Church in Australia. Paul researches the world's mythologies for how they speak to our origins as a species and our potential today as human beings.  He’s joining us from Australia to share more of his amazing knowledge, years of research of the Bible, creation, ancient scripture and translations. Learn more at his websites: https://paulanthonywallis.com  https://www.youtube.com/c/PaulWallis https://5thkind.tv/  https://youtube.com/@the5thkind Don’t forget to rate, follow and leave a comment! www.senseofsoupodcast.com https://www.patreon.com/senseofsoul

Hey Soulseekers, it's Shanna. Journey with me to discover how people around the world awaken to their true sense of soul. Now go grab your coffee, open your mind, heart and soul. Today on Sense of Soul, I have one of my favorite guests joining us for the third time, international bestselling author Paul Wallace. He is the host and the founder of the Fifth Kind, where you can find content exploring ancient aliens, UFOs, human origins and more. Paul is a researcher, a speaker and author on spirituality and mysticism. He is a healing practitioner and has worked as a theological educator and as an archdeacon.

Paul researches the world's mythologies for how they speak to our origins as a species and our potential today as human beings. Paul joined us years ago to tell us about his first book in the Eden series and since then he has wrote many and in today's episode he's joining us to tell us about his recent book in the Eden series called the Eden Enigma. Do ancient carvings in the mountains of Turkey carry memories of ET contact and the dawn of civilization. It's my honor to have him with us again today. Joining us from Australia, Paul Wallace. How are you going? Good, great to see you again. Have you been busy since we last spoke? Probably not as busy as you have. I certainly have been busy. Yes, you have.

I'm super excited to have you back. I actually grabbed my coffee as well. Ah, yes. Is that time of day here in Queensland, Australia? And I saw that you have visited Colorado. Is that where you are, Shannon? Yeah, that's where I'm at. What part of Colorado are you in?

I'm in Aurora, so I'm just like 15 minutes away from like DIA. Oh, okay. All right. Yes. So I was out in Boulder, recording at Gaia, and hopefully I'll be out again before the year's over to do another recording with George Norrie. But I must say, I love Boulder. And if I had a second home somewhere, I think I would probably have it in Boulder.

I just feel very at home there. Yeah, it's got a great vibe. Yeah. Well, I'm super excited to talk to you. I want to hear all about your turkey trip with Matthew LaCoury. Right. It came out of a scouting trip for Matt's new movie. So Matt and I are recording there in October with a wonderful team he's pulled together, team of researchers. And then Matt and I are leading a tour there in September together. We were out there last year scouting for that movie, and while I was there, I found there

was a whole lot more story that had been left behind by the Bronze Age Uratian people who lived there than I knew about. And I thought, oh my goodness, I'm going to have to drill down into this because I know there's something here and it turns out yes there's something there and it's something very specific and very detailed relating to contact after the last ice age and so it was a great discovery for me personally. And I think there may be some dots I've connected that have not been connected before. So I'm excited. I've got a bit of a scoop in the new book. That is exciting. Are we talking about a box that maybe was found somewhere in there? Yeah, that's right. That was the joining the joining piece between the invasion of Eden and the Eden enigma. Invasion ends with me

saying I've got to go back and look at that box. And that box was one of four plinths to some enormous altar like structure in what had been an enormous megalithic structure on the top of a mountain in in Turkey, which has now been completely obliterated. And that box is probably the only detailed piece we have at the moment from that ancient site. And it tells an amazing story in itself. So I get into that artifact in the invasion, and then I get into all the other symbology and artifacts left behind in the Eden enigma. So much history has been destroyed.

Yeah, well, it has. And one of the questions is how were these sites destroyed and when and there's a bit of a mystery around that. I mean, certainly Turkey is known for seismic activity. They certainly do have a lot of earthquakes, but it's not clear how old some of these sites are. And it's possible that some megalithic building was in the region before the Younger Dryas. And when you go over the border into

modern Armenia there is at least one site that straddles the Younger Dryas where it was originally built before or during and then it was rebuilt after and so I'm beginning to ask or how far does that pattern extend from Karakunj, where that is, into Turkey, into Iran, is this part of a bigger pattern? You know, a lot of people don't realize that Christianity pretty much originated in Turkey. Oh, Christianity originated in Turkey. Say a little bit more. Well, I mean, in the fact that that is where Constantine was.

Oh, okay. Yes, I see where you're coming from. Yes. Yes, that's right. Institutional Christianity, as we know it, was shaped from that part of the world. That's very true. So in the Eden enigma, I talk about that moment, because it's so interesting. There are so many things that we think are absolutely essential to Christianity that actually don't go right back to the beginning

of Christianity. So even forms of religious thought, I mean, a lot of people conceive of Christianity as the religion of worship and obedience, but it wasn't really perceived that way for the first 300 years. And then we think of the cross as the central symbol of Christianity, but it wasn't for the first 300 years. And the reason it came in wasn't anything to do

with the crucifixion of Jesus, it was to do with other pre-existing religions and the need for Constantine to get his armies onside. So that story is told in the Eden Enigma as well. So yes, you put that very succinctly. Well, and you know, I was led that direction through my study of the Gnostic Gospels, which I think I had sent you a message a few years ago because it was all new to me, of course. It was so random, but one time I was watching at the beginning of the war of Ukraine and someone says, I'm standing outside of the St. Sophia Cathedral. And I'm like, wait, they knew about a Sophia? Hold up, wait a minute. You know, there was no real proof of a Saint Sophia. In fact, even I think a pope at one point had tried to investigate if there was,

you know, her and her three children, charity, hope and faith or something like that. Yeah. You know, did you get to go see the Hagia Sophia in Turkey when you were there? Yes, I have been there. I have been there. And yes, what took me a long time to discover was that in Eastern Orthodoxy, that is really where Gnosticism and ascension teachings went in Christianity. And the Eastern Orthodox wisdom writers found a way to keep that tradition alive, but to tell the stories in Christian language. And I think, yes, Saint Sophia, Holy Wisdom, sort of represents a bit of a crossover in the Christian story there. Yeah, I actually ran into a few people from Ukraine, from Turkey, and I'd ask them,

So who is Sophia? And they're like, I don't know. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, they don't even know. But isn't that the truth? We just kind of been told one story and we just ran with it and believed it, didn't question it, but you did, didn't you? Yes, I did. I think the way I came into my Christian faith was very helpful really. I began my life as a skeptic and as an atheist really.

And my earliest thinking about faith was not positive because I'll tell the story of what happened when I was five years old and I went to a school which wasn't a church school, but back in the day, there was a lot of Christianity even in the public schools and the state schools. And so we would sing hymns and we would pray Christian prayers. And one Monday morning at assembly, Mrs. Clark's class came in and the headmistress told us we were going to learn a new hymn. Mrs. Clark was the one

teacher who knew how to play the piano. So her class had learned this hymn, they sang it to us, and it began with the words, When Jesus sang it to us. And it began with the words, when Jesus was a little boy. And it went on to say that when Jesus was a little boy, he was good as gold. He never gave his parents any trouble. He always did what his teachers told him. He was perfectly behaved and so children should you be. And I listened to that hymn, even at the age of five, and I thought, this is so transparent, this is pathetic. They are using Jesus to try and control us to get us to behave. You're a smart five year old. would you have to be to buy this? And so that really remained my default belief about Christianity and religion

from the age of five onwards, that you would have to be a bit dim to buy into that. And I wanted to see myself as intelligent. And I remember going home and saying to my dad, dad, the teachers at school, they keep saying things about God like this, but they've never seen God. They don't know what God is for all they know, God could be a giant green dragon. My dad, just reading a newspaper at the time just

said, Oh, yes, son, you're probably right. But that that was sort of where I started off. And the only way I was able to make a positive move towards the figure of Jesus and the teachings of Jesus later on when I was about 17, was by seeing clear blue water between the Jesus figure in the gospels and the tradition that had emerged in his name. It was only by realizing the question

of the credibility of Jesus and the credibility of Christian institutions were two totally different questions, or the credibility of my Christian friends, completely different questions. And so when I came into the faith, it was always with this critical eye of seeing the difference.

And so when I became a Christian had a powerful spiritual experience, I joined the youth group and the church of my friends where people were having powerful spiritual experiences, I knew they were tapping into something there. And so I wanted to find out how, how they were getting this connection with the divine going. And so I was full of questions. But one of my questions was, why in our church here do we invest so much energy

into worshiping Jesus when that isn't one of the gospel teachings? You didn't come to be served, didn't come to be worshiped. So why are we doing this? And when do we do all the other stuff that he taught about? And I found I never got a satisfactory answer to that. And so from then on, all through my 33 years in church-based ministry,

I always had this critical eye of going back to the texts and saying, here are the texts, here's the emerged tradition, and I can see where they don't line up. So there are, I mean, there are lots of dogmas that a lot of people take as gospel, if I can put it that way. Doctrines of the universal sinfulness of human beings would be one, total depravity, these are great Calvinist doctrines, the doctrine of hell as eternal conscious torment for the non-believer. Apocalypse.

All the teachings around the apocalypse. It's actually very difficult to get to those conclusions if you've just got the New Testament in front of you. Again, there's clear blue water, and I was able to see that. So I didn't buy into all that. And that's not so unusual. So I didn't buy into all that. And that's not so unusual. You know, as a teacher in the churches, many pastors find their job is really in developing the thought life of their congregation. And they can see where the shortcomings are

in perhaps the mainstream narrative or in the 12 fundamental truths of their movement and their job is to move the congregation forward, get them thinking more carefully, keep them returning to the texts. So I'm not so unusual in having this critical eye. It's really the gold of the reformed tradition within the church to always go back to the text and say have we read that right? Are we doing this right and that was really my experience all through my years in ministry? Thank you for saying that you know sometimes I get angry and I just think that we're being so deceived in so many ways But I mean, I think they would have to I mean not everyone can be so blind to some of the things that are so obvious

No, and I think a problem within the churches is that pastors often don't feel free to teach their congregations all the wonderful things they learned at seminary or a theological college, because in a lot of churches, the congregation sits in judgment over the pastors teaching and if he strays from the script, well perhaps you can't teach us anymore because you don't believe what we believe. And so this is why pastors have to dance a subtle dance sometimes of how far can I lead these people in my teaching ministry before that relationship snaps and I become totally irrelevant. It would

actually be selfish for a pastor to stand up and say let me tell you everything I believe about everything knowing that would be his last sermon. Unfortunately it's a very conservatizing energy and this is often felt by young men and women when they're fresh out of seminary, they've learned, oh my goodness, the Bible has a history, now I know how the Bible came together, oh my goodness, not all the stories in the Old Testament need to be taken at face value, they're not all God's stories, they get back all excited to their congregation and find, oh we don't go there, don't preach that, if you want to work here, here's the script that we're teaching. And you can you can

have these ideas privately. But for goodness sake, don't give them from the pulpit. And I do get a lot of correspondence from men and women who are going through seminary or have just gone to their their first calling their first church, and are struggling with this and saying, well, on Earth, where is, how do I find my integrity if these are the rules of the game? And that conservatizing dynamic means that discoveries that were made in the 1800s about the Bible's dependence on ET narratives in the Mesopotamian traditions,

that information can be discussed at an academic level. It's been known all this time, but it has not filtered down into the rank and file of the churches, which is why I get so much pushback from Christians as they react to my books. Well, I do have to say that the Pope definitely has, you know, come out with some stuff that Pope Pryor has. And I did hear him say, someone asked him, so what happens if there is an alien and the alien comes here and he said, oh, I'd be happy to baptize him in the name of Jesus. And I just laughed. Yeah, the Pope's, current Pope's predecessor said exactly the same. It sounds ridiculous when it's expressed that way. The idea that an advanced species would travel, first of all, develop the technology

to travel light years through the cosmos in order to join the Roman Catholic Church. It is funny, but it's actually quite a pithy way of putting on the table some really serious questions about what happens to our doctrines of salvation if all of a sudden we're in a populated cosmos. It really does throw a question mark over our conventional understanding of who Jesus was, what the cross was about. And I think that was actually quite a clever

and subtle way that the last two popes put these questions on the table, inviting not just Roman Catholics, but seekers and believers all around the world to consider what are the implications of contact with another civilization. And they have been one of the most curious people for the longest I believe they had the telescope back in I want to say the 1800s so they were obviously

interested and maybe from some of the secrets that they have down in those archives. those archives? Well, it's intriguing, isn't it? Because in between 1600, when they burnt Giordano Bruno to death for merely suggesting we might be in a populated cosmos and the construction of those telescopes, something happened to suddenly make that curiosity important enough to spend a heap of money on it. And I didn't realize until 2009 they had so many people, senior Roman Catholic academics,

working for the Vatican's observatory. So I'd never heard of Reverend Dr. Guy Consolmagno, and all of a sudden I find out not only is he the senior astronomer at the Vatican Observatory, but a senior theological advisor within the Curia. Same with Father José Gabriel Funes, same with Monsignor Corrado Balducci. And to realize there was actually a long background of senior conversation about what's happening in space

and what contact is going to mean when it becomes public is one of the things that caught my attention more than a decade ago and made me realize, I've got to do some work on this because people are going to be blindsided. If all of a sudden it becomes obvious that we've got company or that we're in contact. I think a lot of believers are going to be at sea at sixes and sevens as to what this means. And this is something we should be thinking about now. And that was one

of the things that propelled me into writing Escaping from Eden in the first place. You know, I definitely for myself when I read the Bible with awakened eyes, right? I did not get past those first few chapters without questioning. Wait a second. Did Adam's daughters like hook up with angels? And they have these nephalims? Like what is this? No one ever taught that in Sunday school. Well, yes, it's funny.

It was that story that came to mind when I first heard Reverend Dr. Guy Consolmagno say we shouldn't be surprised to be experiencing contact because there are ETs in the Bible, they're in the Old Testament and the New Testament. And when he said that I thought, oh, he must be talking about the Genesis six story. So when about a decade ago, I got into my research in this field, that was what I was expecting to find. I was thinking, okay, if there are ETs in the Old Testament, it'll be Genesis six. But I approached these questions as a student of Bible translation,

going to the root meanings of the keywords in these texts, applying all the principles of hermeneutics, that's the principles of interpretation, that I've been teaching to pastors for 15 years. As I did that to anomalies in the text, I realized the ET aspect of the Bible story begins chapter one, verse one of the book of Genesis and continues throughout the whole book.

And it's not been preached on, a light has not been shone on it. So that a lot of believers, if they're reading their way through the Bible, they get to Genesis six and it doesn't make any sense at all. It leaps out of nowhere. Who are these beings who were similar enough to us that they can hybridize with human females, but different enough that it produces a type of being that never stops growing and it becomes a giant. And then we've got reference to giant races all through the Hebrew canon. Where does that come from? It seems to come from out of the blue until you do the work of getting back to the root meanings and realizing that these plural Elohim, these plural powerful beings are there from the

get go. They're involved in a recovery of the environment post a cataclysm. And the telling of that story is what we've understood as a creation story. They're involved in the reestablishment of life on earth and the development of Homo sapiens sapiens. And from that moment on, they're involved. So I'd never read it that way. It was only through the work of Bible translation that I got to it. And as I repluralized the word Elahim and

re-read the stories in that light, I realized these stories are just a retelling of the more ancient stories from out of Sumer, Babylonia, Arcadia, and Assyria. I'd remembered enough from my theological training to recognize the stories. Then when I read them alongside each other it blew me away because it becomes very clear which is dependent on which, that the Bible is a retelling. So my question then was well what are the implications of our God's stories being based on someone else's stories of sky people, our religious texts being based on non-religious texts, because the Mesopotamian stories are not there to tell

you to worship a particular being or to do a particular thing or believe a particular thing. They just seem to be curations of memory from the deep past. And I started seeing them that way, the moment I took the Bible and the Mesopotamian out of their bubble and read them alongside other ancient texts from around the world and started listening to the oral tradition of cultures from all around the world. And I realized that there are stories that repeat from culture to culture, but not in

a Chinese whispers kind of way, each culture has found its own names, its own metaphors, its own images, its own language, that seem to be repeating the same visual memory of the same traumas in our deep past. And it was that that got me onto the track for the Eden series. I also feel like you could do the same with myths all over. Right. And I actually even found I don't know where I even found it, but like the Yamenia people who were kind of in the area of like Ukraine and Turkey and that, they I heard, maybe you'll know that, you know, they had, they're the root of like where Roman mythology and Greek mythology came from. They had similar stories. And so,

I mean, yes, the names changed and all this, but yet the characters were still kind of archetypes were the same. And I've kind of looked at much of Jesus's story in that way now, as almost mythology passed down and used. Not that I don't doubt, I do believe he was an actual real person. I do. I do believe he was an actual real person. I do. I think. But the stories that were in this Mesopotamian text, I mean it's undeniable. I mean I don't know how people can even argue it. I mean you literally have like the story of the dove, you know, in a flood. But there's also, correct me if I'm wrong, there was like,

the first woman spoke of her name meant like rib of life or something like that, the story of Adam and Eve and how, you know, they take the rib from Adam to make Eve. I mean, these stories are very specific. Yes, I want to go back to what you were just saying, because it's so interesting about the place of mythology. Because on the one hand, when I'm looking at the stories that are in the Hebrew canon, I can see that they are echoing the Mesopotamian stories and are really illuminated. Once you take the Bible out of its bubble, read it alongside the Mesopotamian stories and are really illuminated. Once you take the Bible out of its bubble, read it alongside the Mesopotamian, read it alongside other ancestral narrative

from around the world. Well, you can say the same about the New Testament because the New Testament was written by Greek writers for Greek readers. People would come to those documents through the world of Greek readers. People would come to those documents through the world of Greek thought. And so they would have been very familiar with Greek mythology and Roman mythology.

And they would have to be to understand some of the points and themes and motifs in the gospels in New Testament. So for instance, in the Gospel of Mark, in its earliest form, it ends with the empty tomb. And it sounds like a real petering out of the story to the modern ear. Except if you're familiar with Greek and Roman mythology, you know that's a punchline. When we're told the tomb is empty, that is a trope. That is a way of saying, he is no longer here, he is now to be found among the gods, he has become divine.

And that's just one example where Greek thought tells you how to read the story. And I remember somebody asking me, how is it that a more fundamentalist way of seeing Christianity has really come so strongly to the fore in traditional churches that in the past, kind of held a more open theology. And I think the answer to that question in some instances is that they took classics out

of the schools. So that now when people go to seminary to study for the ministry, they don't see the Gospels and New Testament in the context of Greek and Roman mythology. They see it in a bubble. And they are more likely to take it as a unique story and series of historical claims instead of thinking, oh, I recognize this theme from the story of Dionysius, so I recognize this theme from the story of Romulus. Or- How many virgins can we have? Or here we have another virgin birth that's right so when you've read the classics and then you go to theological college that's gonna take you to

a far more open view of the gospel and New Testament which was more mainstream a generation ago a couple of generations ago so now as a grown up, I'm rapidly consuming everything I can about Greek and Roman mythology so that I can have a fuller understanding of the Gospels in New Testament. But that's something that I would have been taught in school a couple of generations ago. So that's a really significant shift. I think once we're able to get the Bible out of its box,

out of its bubble, read it alongside the international canon of stories to which it belongs, that's when some of these other themes emerge, themes to do with ascension and themes to do with our deep past. Wow. Okay, so I have been reading a lot of the Gnostic text, and I've pondered on some

of those allegorical stories like Sophia and like Yaldabaoth, right, and him being the God of the Bible, right? Who the heck is the God of the Bible? And I guess it depends on which culture we're talking about, who would argue who is the God of the Bible? That's a great question. I mean, today, if I use the word God, probably it evokes a fairly cosmic idea. I personally, I love the definition of God that the Apostle Paul gives in Act 17 when he's preaching at the Areopagus. And he says to concertina it together by and he's using the Greek word seos by seos I mean the source of the cosmos and everything in it that in which we all live and

move and have our being of which we are all offspring and I think that's a lovely definition of God there is no word for that in the Hebrew language so when the Hebrew scribes want to evoke that kind of concept of God, which in some of the Psalms, you'll find that in the minor prophets, you'll find that they don't have a word for it. Instead, they reach for this word Yahweh. But you read the entire Bible and you realize in the beginning Yahweh didn't mean that at all. Yahweh was one of the powerful ones. Yahweh was an entity. Yahweh was one of the powerful ones. Yahweh was an entity. Yahweh was one of the junior Elohim who got given a people group with no land,

while his seniors got land and the people on it and the resources under it. And until you frame the story of Yahweh that way, and you'll find that framing in Psalm 82, Deuteronomy 32, you can't understand why he's continually warring with the others. Why Yahweh is a jealous God is because he wants some land and the people on it and the resources under it. That's why he has to go to war with his competitors in order to get on a level footing. So until you've got that framing of who Yahweh is, you can't understand any of the battles, but then get towards the end of the Hebrew canon,

and it becomes confusing because that same name is being used for this ineffable concept of God. And it's a deliberate confusion. It's not accidental. The Bible itself tells us this, because if you read Ezekiel, Jeremiah, 1 and 2 Kings and Ezra, in that you will hear the Bible itself telling you how its narrative was changed from a canon of memory of payday or contact memory of all these diverse advanced beings who came in the past, some helpfully, some exploitatively, how that was stamped out and the narrative was shifted over to a religion of monotheism, beginning with the reforms under King Hezekiah. That's why Hezekiah's God, Yahweh, becomes Almighty God by the end of the Bible. That's why all the other gods are now false gods or idols,

because the narrative has been shifted. So we regard our past differently, and we're now all gathering around the new religion. And that's really a template for what has been done all around the world when monotheistic religion has been exported along with military power. We see the prototype in the story of Hezekiah

and all the reforms that followed. That's a story I tell in the Eden conspiracy. Kind of, it just does feel like a conspiracy. Well, it was, it is a great case study in narrative control. This is one of the reasons the Bible is such a precious document. And it's a very honest document because the writers show us how narrative control was achieved. It was done through redefining the scriptures and redacting the scriptures. And it was done through violence as well. When you have to establish theology through military power,

that ought to be a little red flag that there's another layer to this story. And it's part of the Christian story every bit as much as the story of Judaism. You know, I asked you years back which Bible I should get in under your advice. I did get I got the revised New Jerusalem Bible, I believe, where it has, you know, text of the Hebrew right next to the English or translations.

I love the New Jerusalem. The footnotes and the editorial notes are so honest and scholarly. Those notes don't shy away from the Bible's dependence on the Mesopotamian sources. And I think one of my favorite moments, I'll have to dig it out, find where it is, is where we have the Almighty cropping up in the text. And of course, Christians are very familiar with this language, the Almighty. Well, that's God, isn't it? Except the footnote in the New Jerusalem says this translation is probably inaccurate. They've left it in power of tradition, power of entrainment. But the footnote tells you actually that's not what that means and for that transparency I really applaud it.

Absolutely I appreciate that going back to those giants and like Gilgamesh's bed was found in my wrong in saying that? No, I think you're quite correct. That was in 2003, the Allied incursion into Iraq. Within about 10 days of getting into Iraq, there were Allied units who had gone to retrieve what was believed to be the sarcophagus of Gilgamesh. Now, we had a heads up that this was actually going to be a priority when the leader of that operation as an archaeologist, Jörg Fassbinder, had briefed the

BBC and said we've used soil magnetization technology to identify what we're 99% certain is a sarcophagus of Gilgamesh. We're going to go in, we're going to retrieve it. Well this was the find of the age because if you can find that you can verify or falsify the Mesopotamian narratives around Gilgamesh who was a hybrid of human plus sky people which is why he was a giant if you get the sarcophagus and you test it you can either determine that this was pure fiction or that it was something else and I think the logic is they found it retrieved it and found

a controversial answer to that question because the whole story was buried. We never heard any more about it, or certainly not for a number of years. And after about five years, I think it was to a French archeological magazine that Jörg Fassbinder said, "'Oh, we decided not to investigate any further. We thought it'd be safer to bury the site

for its protection.'" Well, that doesn't make any sense at all. No. You can't prioritize it to that degree and then just change your mind. I think the logic is they retrieved artifacts from there and they wanted to test them privately. If the findings were not controversial,

they would publish them. If they were controversial, they would bury them. If they were controversial, they would bury them. So since the story was buried, I have to conclude that what they found was controversial. I have to conclude it confirms the hybridization story told by the Mesopotamians. You know, I also found a connection between Gilgamesh story and the myth of Lilith, Adam's first wife. That whole story about how I think it's the story where Gilgamesh faces her out of this tree that she lives in. Do you know that story? No, these are stories I haven't probed. So yes, it's a cool story. So there's a dragon actually that protects this tree. It's called the, uh, the Hulupu tree was

the tree and there's a specific bird. I can't remember the bird, but during that time I was kind of studying Lilith a little bit and as rabbi, he says, I see you redeeming Lilith's story. And I'm seeing Lilith from different eyes. I wanted to read about her and I found that story about her in Gilgamesh. It sounds cool. Yeah. Are you writing about this Shanna? I am. So I'm writing. It's called Desperately Seeking Sophia. My whole story of how I came to know who Sophia was and like this divine feminine energy

that has been buried and hidden in plain sight. That's a great title. Thank you. Desperately Seeking Sophia. And so I imagine this is where you get into the story of Hagia Sophia in Constance and asking people who's this and they're not quite sure your book's going to tell them everything. Well I don't know about everything but you know like yourself I feel I feel like

you're like this uh Paul you share the journey that you've been on without the dogma, right? Without anything I've learned through all of this over the years is that I don't really grasp onto any belief tightly because next week I might learn something completely different that may take me down a different path. Yes, that's right. Yeah, I's right. Yeah, I love that. I think it's a really good way to process your own journey,

but I think it's also a great way to teach others what you've learned because I think in a way it would be dishonest to write a book that says, this is how it is. Because we are all on a learning journey. And certainly I know I've been on a rapid journey of unlearning and relearning and fresh discoveries. So I have to be honest and say here's a journey, let me share it with you. But I also find it's helpful because if you're coming out of a world view that you've lived in for decades, it's difficult to do that in a single hit.

And how can I expect someone to get to what I'm writing in the Eden enigma in a single hit if they're coming from secular humanism or orthodox Christianity? It's taken me years. I can't expect them to do it within a single book. So of course, I'm going to have to share the journey if I want to hand hold people who are doing their own work of reframing and investigation. And I try and write in a way that wets people's appetite to go and do their own exploration, their own reading, their own investigations, and it is one of my favorite themes when I go through my correspondence from morning to morning to hear people saying, I have such a curiosity on me now, I have such an appetite on me to find out what's what. And I hear that from people of every age,

right up into their 90s, I get correspondence from people saying that. And I think that's wonderful. I think that's something new about this period that we're in right now. Yeah. Oh my God, I love that. And I'm so grateful that I found this out before I was 90. I could tell you that much.

Yes. I know everyone says that I found this out before I was 90. I could tell you that much. Yes, I know everyone says that whatever their age they say why didn't I find this out before but actually the the appetite I think is something precious in itself because human beings are supposed to be curious. It is the magic that has enabled us to become intelligent, technological, advanced species. I think without curiosity, you're in some kind of a funk or a depression. So if you and I can sort of stoke that in people and kindle it in people, I think that's a really wonderful thing to be doing. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's like this idea that mystery is scary. The mysteries.

Well, I think I understand for some people why it is because if you've come from and you don't have to be a believer, but if you've come from a culture that has been strongly shaped by Orthodox Christianity, it's very possible you're coming out of a world where if you believe the wrong things, you go to hell. Yeah. And if that's been the psychological world in which you and your ancestors have lived for centuries, then to say, actually, I don't know what I believe about this can feel very scary, because you can feel like your whole life depends upon it. And it's one of the reasons why in my book, the Eden conspiracy, I go to some lengths to deconstruct the doctrine of hell on a biblical basis, because

once you've done that, you're free to explore. And you're free to do investigations, not feeling that your life or death depend upon these conclusions or your eternal fate, your eternal destiny depends on what you think about these things. If you've got that hanging over you, you've got no freedom to be curious at all. So once you've part that, now you can have fun.

Now exploring can be playful. And I think if you're not in that playful, creative, curious mindset, you're not going to be able to escape an old programming and put new thinking together. We have to be in that space where we've got permission to think different things and not know and embrace the mystery and be excited by it. Yeah, I could tell in many of the Gnostic texts,

specifically Pistasophia, which is not, wasn't a Nagamati find, it was prior, but Mary Magdalene was so curious, just like me. I think that's why it's one of my favorite texts, because, I mean, she was so enamored by the mysteries that Jesus was teaching. Right. And I think it's something that if you start with the canonical text of Christianity and then go to the Gnostic, one of the differences that you'll pick up is if you're going with sort of questions about,

yes, but what really happened, or if you're going wanting to nail down your systematic theology, you're going to find the Gnostic text mess you up. They just confuse you because really they are designed to put you on a journey of discovery. And then once you sort of accept that and think, oh, all right, this hasn't been written to answer all my questions. If you then go back to the canonical text, you'll see exactly the same is true there. If you just go to Jesus's sayings in the gospels, they are not systematic theology. Many of them are sayings that are meant to leave you

wondering and pondering and send you on a journey. I love the fact that in John's gospel, Jesus says, there's so much more. I would like to tell you, but you're not ready for it. Don't worry, the Holy Spirit will lead you into that. There is the permission to explore right there. There's the expectation to learn stuff

not in these texts right there. It frames all the other teaching as, this is a start point, this is jumping off point. This is a way in to this journey of discovery and ascension. And this is why I think we've distorted Christianity somewhat if we think we can boil it down to a doctrinal basis. And there are churches where they equate salvation with being able to recite the doctrinal basis. And there are churches where they equate salvation with being able to recite the doctrinal basis. So I'm thinking of Thomas Darby, Plymouth Brethren, where the moment

a young person can articulate the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement theory, that's the moment you can declare them saved. This is so totally different because that's a story of great, they've arrived, end of story, just keep believing that and don't believe anything else. That's totally different to welcome to the journey, now go and explore, which is what I hear in the teachings of Jesus himself.

You are so right. I never thought of this ever. But like Jesus said, for those who have ears, let them hear for those who have eyes. I have new eyes when I read the Bible. And much of this is because I've read the Gnostic Gospels. And I you're right that none of it made sense at first. In fact, the first time I read half of them, I'm like, what? Yes, that's right. And you said you are supposed to have that reaction. And the Gospel of Thomas is similar, which I believe is possibly the earliest written testament to Jesus's teaching. And it's just a series of teachings. Your reaction to most of those is going to be, what? Yeah. And it's supposed to be, it's supposed to puzzle you, intrigue you, whet your appetite and get you thinking. Yeah, the kingdom is inside of you and it's outside of you. When you come to know yourself,

then you will be known. That to me is everything. I never got it until I experienced it. This is about knowing yourself. This is about... And there's other things that I've also come across that I've heard you speak on. Many of my experiences just with nature, like the sun and the moon, I had these moments where this one time in my backyard, I mean, it was totally random.

I could see the sun and the moon, they were equal in my backyard and I didn't have to move. I said, this is just really weird. I'm like, what time is it? It was like noon. It was, it was cold. It was in February. And I just sat there and it was like I had the moon in my left eye, sun in my right eye, and I'm not even joking, Paul, above me came a white dove,

one white dove. I even took a picture because I was like no one's gonna believe this but later on I read this old text that just randomly popped up somewhere and it was a Rosicrucian alchemical marriage story and it literally described exactly what I wrote I wrote that day as well because I mean it just all made sense. I was like the feminine and the masculine, the dark and the light, right? The night and the day and none can be without each other and it was at that moment the dove came and I just thought this is like the most divine moment. Yes, that's right. That's like a gnostic enlightenment moment right there. Yes, that's right. That's like a Gnostic Enlightenment moment. I know, but I would have missed it had it not been present either. You know, how many moments like that happen where we don't even

receive that wisdom. But yeah, and then I thought, oh my gosh, people have already wrote about this. Like this is already a thing. Yes, I had the same experience a number of times of realizing, oh my goodness, I'm not the first person to think this. And in the coaching space, I hear that so many times from people who reach out to me and they say, I'm really excited by what I've just seen

on the fifth kind or just read in one of your Eden books, because now I realize I'm not the first person to think this. And they feel so energized to continue their journey of discovery because, oh, I'm not alone. This is part of the human experience. Yeah, it's fun to be curious and to go on this journey. One thing that definitely happens is you do become to know yourself a lot deeper than you ever expected. Much of this journey it sounds like for you, when

you went to Turkey, you were seeing these things that you knew in the Bible. You were seeing there's history here. Like the rabbi says, there's many different levels. There's like the spiritual part, there's the actual literal part, there's the hidden meaning. There's so much symbolism with everything. But you were finding that the Bible was credible, just yet we weren't reading it with this curiosity. Yes, that's right. I do get pushback from some Christians saying, you're debunking the Bible. No, I'm not.

What I'm doing is questioning how we've translated it and how we've interpreted it. My belief is still that the Bible is full of vital information. It's one of the most precious repositories of ancient knowledge that there is certainly in the field of paleo contact. And when I went to Turkey, it was very interesting because there are things there that certainly give weight to the idea that there is history in the ancient stories of the Bible, that when Genesis talks about a cataclysm and a reboot of humanity and a recovery of agriculture in what we now call ancient Armenia, there is a lot of data to support

that, that that is a reference to something that actually happened. And then when I got into that actually happened. And then when I got into the sacred sites left behind by the Urartian people who lived in Turkey in the Bronze Age, 3000 years ago, I started recognizing symbols that I had in my youth thought were the preserve of Christianity. The sun cross, the circle with a cross inside it, held above what looks like a chalice,

where that might look like an advert for come to mass in institutional Christianity, but those symbols already existed. And the associations of the cross already existed. So within Christianity, or I'll go the other way, the cross already had the meaning of someone who's come from the heavens to the earth. It already meant one to whom we defer, one whom we serve, one to whom we pay our tithes. It already represented a heavenly body. Before Christianity started using the cross, all those meanings were already there, and then Christianity

ran with them and added some other layers to the story of the cross as well. In the artistic canon of Christianity, we've always had winged beings coming to assist. And that's curious because that's not in the Bible. So where's that come from? Go to the Bronze Age in Turkey. You can see those symbols right there. Winged people who've come to assist in a very particular way, which I hope we'll get into in a few moments. And then you travel into what's now Iran, there are winged people there helping human beings with exactly the same technological fine point. And so here are two symbols that came into Christianity that began somewhere else. And so I had to begin thinking, all right, what's going on here? Why did Christianity take these symbols on? And did any of the more ancient meanings survive or did they get obliterated by the Christian story? And that's some of the territory I explore

in the Eden enigma. What about the lion connection? Seems like there's, well, you know, in the Gnostic text, you know, Yaldabaoth has like the body of a serpent and the face of a lion. And then there's always seems to be with a lot of the Sumerian and Anakki, like they're always standing on lions, it seems like. Yes, that's right.

In Turkey, you've got the leader of the Tingir, these advanced beings, his name is Haldi, and he's shown standing on the top of lions. Asherah, known within the Hebrew tradition as the bringer of agriculture to the ancestors of the tribes of Israel. She's shown holding two lions by the ears. Gilgamesh, the Sumerian king, the hybrid king we mentioned before, is shown holding a lion and by scale the lion looks the size of a lap cat. And I think there are many layers to that. But

certainly in Turkey, when I look at the place of the lion there, it's essentially a statement about power. So we've got two animals that are really symbols of supremacy. So the lion is the king of the beasts. He's the top of the food chain, but Haldi is more powerful than the lion. The eagle flies higher than any bird, the most powerful, the most oversight. And so again, there is the eagle as a symbol

for royal intelligence, royal power, royal authority. These two symbols go side by side in ancient Turkey to say that the kings, Argisti, Rusa, Sarduri, they're at the top of the food chain. They've got this great oversight. They are the wise ones. They're the conquering ones. And you can understand the story at that level.

And then you'll note, of course, those two animals crop up in royal crests all around the world, because all royal families want to say we're at the top of the food chain here. And so those are the animals that are chosen to communicate that fact. But I'm sure you're right, Shanna. There are other layers to that story as well. I haven't probed those quite as yet. Maybe that will be for a future Eden book. Okay. Also, is it the seraphim that is described with the face of an eagle, face

of a lion, face of an ox, and the human face? But I think that you're onto something. You know, I had one time thought, because you know, I have people on here sometimes talking about star people, you know, in these different star seeds, and you know, I've often heard of the lyrons, which have a connection with the lions. And so I have proposed, I am Czech, Slovakian, French, Italian and a million other things you know these are my lineages right could it be that when they said that this seraphim was had the face of this and this maybe it was

calling its lineages well that's a that's a really good point. I mean I I hold the view that all life in the cosmos is ultimately related and I think one of the clues to this is all the so-called junk DNA, human DNA, which there are thankfully DNA researchers, serious credentialed scientists around the world who say no, that doesn't make any sense to call it junk DNA. That's probably the DNA of other life forms that is not active in the human genome. And I think it's entirely possible that this explains why many of our visitors look so much like us with the same shape as us, because we share a lineage, because the genetic coding for biological conscious life is as much

property of the cosmos as are the properties of light and gravity, that whenever this genetic coding lands in an hospitable environment, it generates forms of life similar to the ones that we have here. And so we should also not be surprised to encounter people, creatures from other planets that, hmm, that looks a little bit reptilian or that looks like us or that looks a little bit like a cat or that looks a little bit like a bird because they have a different cocktail within the genetic coding that's been activated to create that species. And the more we learn about how DNA works and generates different species on earth,

the more I find that credible when we start looking at the cosmos. And I love the idea of a being that is calling out its heritage that can say, well, that's my cat heritage. That's my primate heritage. That's my reptilian heritage. And I think as human beings, we feel that within ourselves, don't we? We feel a certain affinity with some animals and less affinity with others. And I think it has to do with how much of that genetic coding we have activated from species to species. And I also think about just the different gifts and traits that we have from our own ancestors, you know, that we can absolutely call out in ourselves. You know, I always say, you know, I think it's remarkable how like my because they say and I've read this but

they did so much sailing and would hold ropes and and this is how they were for generation after generation that it still comes out. Isn't that amazing? Now that is very interesting indeed because there there you're getting into epigenetics which is a fascinating field where the hypothesis is that things outside of our genetic coding can imprint upon us in such a way that it does get passed on genetically from generation to generation. And I was introduced to this concept by a pharmacist a few years ago. Really? by a pharmacist a few years ago. Really? Yeah, I went to get my meds

and my usual pharmacist was not there. And in his place was this young fellow who's very slim. And I said, can I ask what your secret is to remaining so slim because it's an interest of mine, if I can put it that way. I didn't say I'm asking for a friend. I'm interested in staying slim, what's your secret? And he said, oh, well, this is a very interesting story.

And I thought, oh, all right, good, okay. I wasn't expecting this. He said, our family was not slim before the second world war. We were always quite heavy people. And then my, I think he said my great grandfather was in, and I can't remember if it was Auschwitz or Dachau. And when he came out, he was rake thin.

His body had had to learn how to survive rake thin. And then he had children who were rake thin. And then they had children who were rake thin and they had children who were rake thin. So that experience of having to survive super thin had been transmitted genetically from generation to generation from a line that previously had been quite heavy. And so that was right in front of me, a case study, an object lesson in epigenetics. And that changes then how we look at these stories, because I think, you know, a generation ago,

a couple of generations ago, people would have listened to that story about that contracture of the hand and the story about it being, well, our ancestors were rowers and then have thought, I don't think so. Now we've got some science to support that. Yes, that can happen. You know, that's really funny, Paul, I love that you got wisdom from a pharmacist. I just got wisdom like that from a dentist a few days ago. My oldest son, I brought him to tooth extracted. And I was talking to the dentist and the nurse and we were talking about wisdom teeth and they said literally they're finding some kids aren't getting them they've been taking them out for now for a few generations

and it's not happening a lot but they are seeing more and more people are not even developing them so I thought in what a relief. What a relief after all this time. Right? Yeah, for sure. Amazing. That's interesting. I did not know that. Yeah. Yeah. They were like, I would have never bought into the whole thing until we started experiencing it ourselves. And I guess that's kind of what's happening collectively. You know how they say the new earth, but it does seem like as we become less conditioned, as we heal these ancestral lineages and we learn to break free from some of the things that have kept us in that box, it's a new earth. It's, you know, with new eyes,

you can never see things differently. I know you can't. You know, and I'll ask you that, you know, what does your faith look like today? Well, my understanding of God has really expanded. I think for a long time, I was 33 years in church-based ministry, and I was a theological educator and in all those years I was preaching from the Bible and I think if someone had asked me to define God I might have given you know pretty good go at defining God much like the Apostle Paul's quote that we referred to earlier. But I think if you'd observed me closely from day to day, week to week, month to month, you'd realize that my idea of God was much cruder

than that. Christians always say they don't believe in an old man in the sky or a sort of cosmic Santa Claus. But I think I did. I think my prayer life would have given me a way that that was really how I conceived of God. And it took a bit of work to come to terms that my thinking had been that immature, that infantile. But as soon as you start really engaging, I think with questions of suffering in the world, you cannot square that with a puppet master image of God. And that was one thing I was

wrestling with, which a lot of people wrestle with. And it's usually finally coming to terms with the fact you cannot explain away the problem of suffering that forces people to say, all right, I must be conceiving of God incorrectly. I need to think about that again. That's a very common story. But another part of my story was phenomena that I thought were the preserve of spirit-filled Bible-believing Christians, life had confronted me with the fact that these phenomena

belong to humanity in general, that the ability to tap healing in ways beyond our understanding, that's part of the human experience, that the experience of downloading information and you have no idea how you did that, that's part of the human experience. Glimpses of far sight, again, part of the human experience. And it was towards the end of my 33 years that my experiences of guidance of that kind began going ballistic. I

was experiencing it far more frequently than I'd ever experienced it before. And it just broke me out of this old paradigm of here's God, then the church are his agents in the world. And so he'll feed information to his workers. This didn't fit that paradigm at all. And I had to start asking, what does it mean that the Spirit of God is poured out on all flesh? What does it mean to be a human being? What does God mean in relation to the cosmos? So I was on that journey as well. But once I got into my work of root meaning translations

and getting into the patio contact aspect of the Bible, I suddenly had to realize, all right, God is not just the God of the church. He's not just the God of the planet. God is God of the cosmos. And I need to start thinking through what it means if we've got a cosmos full of sentient life. Of course course that reframes how I conceive of God. So all those were things that were sort of in the blender for me. But it's taken me to a point where I can go back to the Apostle Paul's definition of God and say, I love that definition because it says we're all emanations of God. It says essentially that says essentially that my intelligence is a participation in

a property of the cosmos that's come from the source. My consciousness is a participation in something endemic to the cosmos that's come from the source. It's a definition that says there's no separation between me and the source. I'm an expression of it. And without separation, then there's no separation anxiety. And I think a lot of negative aspects of religion have traded on separation anxiety. You know, you're separated from God and you need the priests or the pastors or the teachers to tell you how to claw your way back into his presence. None of that is there. It's more a matter of discovering, so what does this connectedness mean? What is therefore possible? And that's

the journey I've been on. A woman. Instead of a man, a woman. Oh I see, yeah, well absolutely, that's right. And again, it's funny. I suppose because Jesus refers to his father and that's his language for talking about theos, talking about the source. I think that's one reason that we've tended to masculinize our concept of God. It's not the only reason. I mean, what you said earlier, Shanna, is quite right

that the tradition of feminine wisdom, of God. It's not the only reason. I mean, what you said earlier, Shana, is quite right that the tradition of feminine wisdom, divine femininity, has been quite deliberately stamped out of cultures and religions. Then the adoption of Yahweh as the senior God, the war God, who therefore justifies any violence by the state, you know, the Christian state. any violence by the state, you know, the Christian state. That's another reason. And so it has been very interesting for me to recognize this has happened and begin to demasculinize my image of God and the cosmos. But I'm still in process, which is why I missed your joke. No, actually, I also found the divinity in Amen as well. And that was part of my journey. I was so like, the divine feminine is rising. And then I was like, oh, wait, and the divine masculine is rising as well. That's right, exactly. That's the Gnostic marriage that you talked about earlier. And there's something I do love about the word amen, because it's one of four Aramaic words that the Greek writers of the Gospels have retained from Jesus's teaching ministry. These

were clearly phrases very important to the ministry and teaching of Jesus. So important they've kept it in the Aramaic. So while there's no mention of Yahweh, and he only uses the Greek language for theos, for God, here are four words that did make it through. Amen, amen. Which means I'm about to tell you something important F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F the source of the cosmos as to a parent. Abba means daddy or sir. And I think if you put those four words together that's that's almost a summary of the Gnostic

way isn't it? I'm about to tell you something important. Listen carefully you might not get it first time. Deaf ears open. Here's something. Little one, wake up, arise, rise up, arise and now begin relating to the cosmos in this intimate way. That's the core of Jesus's message, according to the synoptic writers, because they've retained it in the Aramaic. And it's a little flag, I think, pointing us to the original Jesus tradition before it got hijacked before it got distorted It just

You are the only one who can make me Want to read the Bible again, you know just to keep on reading the text So for all those Christian apologetics and people who say reading the text. So for all those Christian apologetics and people who say opposite about what you're doing, it is so wrong because you make me hungry to read it with new eyes. Well, Shanna, thank you so much for saying that. And I love hearing this from my correspondence. So many people say what you said. I have not been into God, I've not been into the Bible, now you've given me an appetite for that book. Which Bible should I get? How should I pray? And these are all the questions that any pastor, you know, would give their right arm to have the

world asking them. These are the questions that come to me from day to day because of my Eden series. There you go. So good on you. Thank you. Thank you so much for that. Because it is hard. I grieved my religion. It wasn't easy. Yes. You know, and I of course fell into the Gnostic text because I felt, I think unconsciously, I felt that they were safe because they were still Christian. And I'm glad that I did regardless, you know, because I've learned so much. But there was many times where, you know, I don't want anything to do with that Bible. It's all fake and terrible, but it's not. There's a lot of wisdom, there's a lot of history, and you can explore it from your own perspective too. Yes.

I think there is a bereavement process. If you're coming out of a faith world and rethinking your worldview, there is a grief that you go through for the safe and cozy world that you've known. I mean, for me, there was as well. I remember a moment of, I think the moment when I realized that our ancestors had been altered by another species. That's the conclusion I came to.

Yeah, through reading, firstly through reading the Bible, then the Sumerian and Babylonian stories, and then the Mayan stories. And I remember the moment when the penny dropped, and it was a moment of sadness, because I realized that God, as I had conceived of God, was an illusion. But the illusion had given me a feeling of safety, and security and significance in the world. And all of a sudden, I didn't have that. And that was that was a sense of loss. And it took me a while to find my way to Paul's definition of God, and begin

seeing evidences of that, that close connection with source that we all have, we really are all emanations of the source, we, we are the cosmos experiencing itself. But there was a gap before reaching there, from the moment I let go of the old concept of God, where it was a bereavement, and there was a sadness. And then of course, there is an anger when you realize, we've been deprived of this knowledge. And at times we've been deprived of this knowledge and at times we've been taught distortions and rubbish and you can become quite angry but you have to get beyond that

saying all right okay I just have to accept this is the world this is what has happened what am I going to do now where Where am I gonna go from here? And that's where the curiosity and the excitement comes in. Absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on again. I so enjoy our conversations. You know, let's not wait years again. Shanna, it's always a pleasure.

Let's schedule it before another year goes by. Yeah. Thank you. Tell everybody where they could find you, where they could find your amazing books. How many is this number? Six. So this is number six in the Eden series. The the Eden enigma. There's the cover. Now you can see it. The Eden enigma. Do ancient carvings in the mountains of Turkey carry memories of ET

contact from the dawn of civilization? You can get that. Yes, yes, you need to catch up. Go to Amazon, you'll find it in paperback. Unfortunately, because of massive piracy of previous titles, this one's going to be in paperback only. Really? It's disappointing because I know that excludes a lot of people who like to listen or who read digitally but until they change the copyright laws to protect us Eden Enigma will be paperback only. But head to Amazon get your copy and if you want to get into conversation with me about it you can go to the fifth kind on YouTube or the Paul Wallace channel on YouTube

I'm in the comments every day talking to people and if you want to send me a longer message Come to poor Anthony Wallace comm and you can send me a message through the website and I'll get back to you Awesome. And so then are you also going to be in this movie with Matthew LaCroix? Yes, there's a whole whole stellar team that Matt's pulled together for this movie with Matthew LaCroix? Yes, there's a whole stellar team that Matt's pulled together for this movie and will be filming next month and again in October, investigating human timelines and what ancient archaeological sites in Turkey, Peru, Bolivia, and Spain have to say about that. That is going to be so exciting. I really look forward to that so I'll be looking out. Well thank you so much Paul for all of

your time and your wisdom that you've shared today. I really appreciate you. Thanks Shannon, it's been a pleasure. Bye!