Sense of Soul - Grief to Hope

Episode Date: January 7, 2022

Today on Sense of Soul Podcast we have an inspiring and heartfelt conversation with Elizabeth Catignani, she is a Certified Creative Grief Coach, Health Coach and author of “Creative Grieving: A Hip Chick’s Path from Loss to Hope.”  Grief is often perceived as a dark and lonely journey; as a result, it is a topic we avoid in today's society. Within a 20-month period, Elizabeth Catignani endured the loss of her stillborn son and the subsequent death of her husband on active duty in Afghanistan.  After her tragic  unexpected losses at the age of 27, she has passionately dedicated her life to helping others experience healing, joy, and purpose after loss. She established Her Creative Wellness, a blog and online platform as a supportive space for women to become empowered on their journey in healing and wellness, from grief to hope. She believes in the transformative power of the human journey and our sacred stories. Through sharing her own story, she hopes to light the way for others seeking a healthy, heart-centered, and fulfilling life.  Through her journey, she came to appreciate the value of grieving, and turned her pain into purpose, she founded the web-based support organization Soul Widows and later a non-profit, called The Respite: A Centre for Grief & Hope. She is now celebrating the 8th anniversary of her book being published by releasing an updated version, as well as an upcoming audio book version. You can get her book wherever books are sold, read her blog and learn more about Elizabeth at her website, www.hercreativewellness.com. Don’t forget to rate, follow and leave us a comment! Please go check out our Sense of Soul’s merch and workshops including Shanna’s CLEAR ancestry workshop and learn more about us @ www.mysenseofsoul.com! Exclusively NOW on Sense of Soul Patreon  is the 777 Chakra Journey, 7 weeks 7 Chakras, Shanna’s mini-series about her ancestral journey, “Untangled Roots” and Mande’s mini series about her two NDE’s and much more. https://www.patreon.com/senseofsoul NEW!! SENSE OF SOUL’S NETWORK OF LIGHTWORKERS! https://www.mysenseofsoul.com/sense-of-soul-affiliates-page

Welcome to the Sense of Soul podcast. We are your hosts, Shanna and Mandy. Grab your coffee, open your mind, heart and soul. It's time to awaken. Today we have with us Elizabeth Catagnani. She is a certified creative grief coach, a health coach and the author of Creative Grieving, a Hip Chick's Path from Loss to Hope. After several unexpected losses at the age of 27, she has passionately dedicated her life to helping others experience healing, joy, and purpose after loss.

She established her creative wellness, a blog and online platform as a supportive space for women to become empowered on their journey in healing and wellness from grief to hope. And we are super excited to have her on today. Thank you so much for joining us. And I want to also shout out Cindy Bolero for introducing you to us. And what is her podcast called? Finding Hope. Yeah. You were on her podcast, correct? I was. Yeah. Yes. Her and Mandy. We were all former business partners together at a nonprofit. So we're continuing the bond and as we create new

things, which is fun. Is Mandy her co-host? She is. Yes. Okay. Right. Yes. Mandy does a lot of the interviewing part of it. Okay. She's a licensed therapist and she's also incredible with grief and loss. So I'm curious, what was the nonprofit you guys did? We founded, it was called the Respite Center for Grief and Hope. And it just filled up my heart so much. We really helped so many women. We were around for about four years and we had an incredible building where we had support groups. We had one-on-one counseling. We had all sorts of events and like butterfly releases that were honoring loved ones that were lost. And it was a very special period of my life. So I was lucky enough

to come across these two incredible women in my hometown of Charlotte. And we all had the same vision and we brought it to life. So I'm trying, I'm continuing that work in other ways because my passion is really around helping women through their grief. So if you could tell us who you are, where you grew up a little bit about yourself and kind of where life took you and got you to where you are today. Okay, well, I was born and raised in Michigan. I had a pretty easy going childhood for the most part, nothing drastic happened in my life. I have always been passionate about the arts and the humanities. So I went to school for originally anthropology and

dance and just absolutely loved every minute of it. I went to college down here in North Carolina in Asheville, up in the mountains, which is like my second home still. And I eventually, after college, I met my husband who was in the special forces. And I had never been in a military community before. I had never really been around that. So it was really like entering another world. Here I was coming from this artsy community. And it was just kind of funny.

He'd joke how I was a hippie and he was like this military guy. But we just kind of funny. He'd joke how I was a hippie and he was like this military guy. But we just we just hit it off. And he was in the process of becoming a Green Beret when I met him. And we got married and we just started this life together. And I started readjusting where he went. I would figure out, OK, what am I going to do in this city or this place? So I was teaching for a little bit after college and then my passion switched over to community counseling. So I went to grad school one year for community counseling. That sort of came to an abrupt end though, because I at the time was pregnant with our first born and we were up in Missouri and St. Louis at the time. And I went through a completely healthy

full-term pregnancy, no issues the whole time. And our son was actually born on his due date. And I joked, he was just so much like my husband because he was always on time for everything. So I'm like, well, no surprise here. So I went into the labor process. And after about 14 hours, we had some issues at the end. And sadly, he was stillborn. And he died of a court accident. He was a beautiful nine pound baby boy. Everything was just perfect about him. That was my initiation into grief and loss right there. I just remember holding him and just absolutely the shock that washed over me. I mean, it's interesting. I can look back and some of it's so vivid and some of it is also just like complete dream, you know? So, so that was very hard for both of us to get through. We both were grieving in our own way.

He also still had deployments coming up overseas. At the time, this was 2008. So we knew that he had these deployments coming up and we relocated to Virginia. He got a new job down there and I was like, okay, we're going to figure this out. We're going to establish ourselves. You know, I found a support group because I knew like, just, I was like, I need somebody to talk to. I need some connection around this. I had not known anyone that had personally been through baby loss before. So I immediately was looking for support. And so I joined a group of women that had also gone through something similar and started to pick myself back up. And fortunately, we gave birth to a beautiful, healthy girl the following year. And when she was about six months old, he had to go on his last deployment

over to Afghanistan. He owed them a six month deployment over there. So, uh, I was determined to, you know, get through it. And we had been mentally prepared, uh, just about six weeks into him being over there. We were fortunately able to Skype a lot. We could see each other, which has been a beautiful thing these days with technology. I mean, it was insane how you can get a phone call in the middle of a desert and be able to talk. And just, so it was, I was very grateful for that. But we had one last Skype call and the next day he was going out on a mission.

And the next day I got a phone call from a number I didn't recognize. And like something in my gut told me something was wrong because he usually would call me at the same time every day. And this was, this is very out of the blue And I can remember where I was standing. I can remember the light coming in the window a certain way as I got a call that he had been shot. And it was pretty clear to me that he was not going to recover. So I just remember feeling like my knees were buckling under me. And I quickly, I was actually in Asheville at the time visiting with some family

and I just threw everything in a bag. They, the military flew me over to Germany, which is where they transported him. And I got to be with him while he was on life support. And I just remember sitting there holding his hand. And it was only 18 months later after we had lost our son. I just, I was like, how am I going to do this? How on earth can life continue after this? So those were, obviously those are two massive losses that upturned my life. And I needed to find a way forward. I moved to Charlotte where my sister took me in.

And I literally, I think I was just blob for a good couple months. I could barely function. I had my six-month-old daughter that needed me too. So that was just, I could not have done it without help. So as I worked through that early grief, I was working with a therapist regularly. I was going to support groups for widows. And I was still processing the loss of my son too. So I'm like, okay, I can't do these both at the same time. I have to pace myself here. And it was a very challenging couple of years. And eventually, as I started figuring out creative ways to move through my grief, I just felt this deep calling that I wanted to connect with other women that had gone through something traumatic.

Like, gosh, you know, this, I cannot be the only one. There has to be, you know, because people just don't talk about this all the gosh, you know, this, I cannot be the only one there has to be, you know, because people just don't talk about this all the time, you know, and it's very uncomfortable, especially for a lot of society. And thankfully in the last 10 years, I've seen some movement around it. I've definitely seen some more resources coming up around grief, which just makes me so excited. Cause I'm like, this is so, so needed. So I think that's been a huge blessing. There are steps coming with grief, I think, but I just, I wanted to find other people that were, you know, quote unquote, like me.

And I got connected with former coworkers, Mandy and Cindy, through my sister, actually, my older sister. And we shared this vision of having a space where people could come and feel safe and supported and acknowledged in their grief journey. So that's sort of where I, all that passion and that energy and that grief to be of service. So that's sort of what brought me to where I am today. I just continue to try to bring hope. And I've just been working on the second edition of my book. And yeah, hope that kind of covers a lot of stuff there. But yeah, definitely so much to talk about.

Man, I just got to breathe for a minute after that. That's, that's a lot for, for just made a process, let alone, you know, I can't even imagine how you got through that. And you know, what kept running through my mind was your body had already gone through so much. And those hormones, I mean, that talk, you went from being pregnant to losing a child, to being pregnant, to giving birth, to losing a husband. I mean, so to not only get through that with your normal balance of hormones, but then what your body was going through. Oh my God. Your first time mother actually at the time that you have to bond with and take care of. Yes. I felt a lot of grief and guilt around how can I be there for her? I could barely take care

of myself. I had to allow help to come in because I wanted her to feel that she had all her needs met. And so I, you know, I just loved on her as much as I could while at the same time trying to take care of myself and just take care of basic necessities. Like, okay, I got to eat, got to take a shower, you know, got to hydrate. Cause even those simple tasks in the early days were so difficult. Like I'd have to force myself to eat something. Yeah. You know, I did an interview with my sweet friend, Angelica, who lost her baby when she was five, five months pregnant. I lost the interview and I cried for weeks because she was just so raw around the experience. And she kept telling me that it's just not talked about enough. You mentioned that you feel like in the last 10 years that has shifted. I can't even

imagine the pain of holding a perfectly healthy nine pounds baby. I mean, Angelica's baby was, was a lot smaller. Not that that takes away from it, but I mean, did you, were you angry? Were you questioning the doctors? Were people showing up for you and saying the wrong things or the right things? Like how, how are you handling all of those emotions? Yeah, it can be very hard to drown out other people's opinions or thoughts when they should really should probably just stay quiet a lot of time, you know, they don't realize how to help. So I do recall just a lot of anger, a lot of does the universe hate me? What did I do in my

past to deserve this? You know, I remember just feeling almost like I was being attacked, you know, by some force or something, you know, I just felt completely confused. Like, why me? Why me? And I did feel some anger toward the doctor, just everything, you know, I could have pointed the finger at anybody at that point. So it took me a long time to just, just be with the reality that things happen. And it's not because you're a bad person or somebody else did something wrong, just crappy, crappy, awful things. And I can remember memorial service, one of the families speaking a little too loudly saying, oh, she should really have a C-section next time. So that was upsetting to hear that in the process of like, okay, I'm here with

my son right now. I'm present with this moment. This is where everybody's heart and mind need to be right now. Not having an opinion about my next child down the line. You could hear people saying, you know, you should be quiet to this person, but people will just say stuff and not even realize how much it can sting and cause hurt. And because there's no replacing that child be lost. There's nothing that will ever take the place of that. And there's not even any perfect right or wrong thing to say. It's really just about the best thing for me at the time was having someone silently sit next to me, being a rock for me, you know, saying, you know, I'm here, tell me what you need, or I will do this for you, you know, just, I will listen. And I think that's

where a lot of people, cause you know, everyone wants to just like fix it and help somehow. And they, it's hard sometimes to just sit with the pain with the person that is grieving. Cause that's, that can be a scary place to be in and people feel awkward and uncomfortable. So I tried to give some people some grace, you know, around that, knowing that, okay, they've never experienced this. We're all just kind of stumbling through this because there's really no handbook that's like, okay, this is what you do on day three, you know? So. It's a lot. I I've actually gone through a pregnancy with someone else where our kids were going to be at the same, you know,

and theirs didn't make it. I never felt more guilty for having a baby. And when we would have family gatherings and stuff, oh my God, it just was so sad.. And you know, you get to this place within yourself where you're like, I don't even know what to say. I have no words, but that happens. And I think that that happens for a reason because there is no words and, and it is just silence and I'm just allowing someone just to be without saying something. Exactly. Or you can just say, I don't know the words, so forgive me for not having them, you know, but I'm here for you.

Isn't that interesting though, when loss happens, like you're at a loss of words and you like to be there for someone, you know, your condolences really have no words. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's hard to find them within your mind, you know, but you feel so much within your soul, but yet there's no words to describe your emotion, you know, which is why we end up so wordless. I find that to be so amazing, but I think often that is what love is and love is grief. Yeah. Because if we never loved, we would never experience grief. Yes. And it's just like one of those things that there's no language for it. Exactly. Yeah. And it's such, it's such a energetic bodily thing too, you know, even the strength that comes from a person I've seen it, you know, from outside and I've been that person, people have said, I can't believe how strong you are.

And it's like, where does that strength come from? It's a supernatural strength that comes through. Cause I always think I could never, ever handle that, or I could never do what they're doing or be so strong. And then when you're faced with it, the strength comes over you. That is supernatural. It's, it is, it's very, very powerful. It's like the core of your being suddenly is just survival. You know, I've got to do this because I can remember thinking, you know, well, I either take a step forward or I lay down and give up, you know? And so it's almost to a point where strength is your only choice or you can't function. It's like, I didn't really want to choose this strength. I didn't choose this.

It's like every ounce forward is, is a piece of strength that you didn't know you had until you absolutely need it to survive. Yeah. So, uh, I was just going to give you a little background. My brother was killed in Iraq. He was in the service. He was shot by a Al Qaeda sniper. My niece was born 11 days after he died. I heard it was with you for that. Yeah, thank you. My sister-in-law made a horrific airplane ride as well, just like you did. Hers was not to see him, but hers was to get off the base in Alaska and to go home to her parents to give birth.

I've been really emotional lately with the news and what's going on over in Afghanistan. And I had to shut off my TV because it literally took over my emotions and was affecting who I was being in our society and under my roof. I had a lot of opinions, a lot of anger. I'm sure you felt that way. Oh yeah. So you're a gold star wife. I'm a gold star sister. I feel your pain.

Going to a country that you've never probably been to. Had you ever been to Germany? Once before when I was 18. And yeah, it was very, it was like a one or two day visit on a tour of, um, Western Europe. It was a great visit then. Yeah. So you go back, you're sitting next to your husband who's on life support and you have

a child at this time. Yeah. I would love to just give a shout out to your, your husband, his name. Um, first class William Brian Woods, Jr. Well, thank you to him and his family. And my heart goes out to you guys and your, and your, your sweet son. What was his name? His name was Tookie.

Tookie Brian. Tookie Brian. That's so cute. And I just want to take a moment, like just to honor them. Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And what is your sweet daughter's name?

I have two now. My daughter is named Ella May Sky. That was, she was the one that was six months old when, when Brian died. And what's your other daughter's name now? And my other one is Gabriella. Beautiful. When did, when did Brian die? 2009, August of 2009. So he was killed in action. Yes. Yeah. They were chasing down the Taliban. So that day when you sat with your husband and you had to get back on a plane to come home, what got you through that? Like, where did that strength come from?

Like Shanna said, that superhuman power, like how did you do it? Well, I did have a military escort that was there to help guide me around. Cause I was completely, obviously just oblivious to life. And I was there. I can't even remember the number of days that I was with his sister. Only a certain number of family, they would let come over there. I think one of the most difficult things at that time was that my family was across the ocean and just having to call them for support. I would just, and I know they felt so helpless. I was just breaking down on the phone. They just wanted to be there so bad. And at the time I was still getting to know his sister. And so I didn't have like a really super close, my immediate family that I needed so badly. So I just recall breaking down at a table with all these military men that were very stoic. And I just felt like I was going

to pass out. And I had someone help me to a room, just like, is she okay? Does she need to be admitted somewhere? And I just remember thinking, no, you crazy person, I'm grieving. Like this is grief. Like I am allowed to show these emotions and not be crazy. And that made me so angry. But I remember very little of the plane ride back. I think they gave me some, something to help me sleep. And I was gripping my, my late husband's shirt and my arms. And, uh and the lady next to me obviously was very concerned and confused about so she I think she went to talk to a flight attendant being like what's up with this lady I'm sitting next to she's sobbing and she's you know acting you know so they explained

to her what what had happened but so that was the whole ride back was a blur and then I recall when I got to the airport, um, my closest group of friends and my family were all there and they just literally caught me in their arms and they were just, I still get emotional thinking about that. Recall feeling like I need someone to hold me up, you know? And so they, they literally just like scooped me up and took me to my sister's house and they just surrounded me and didn't leave my side for a couple days but yeah I just felt like a shell I really just felt like a shell of myself at that point

you know I I don't know if you can relate, but I hate those videos. I like have a love hate towards them. The videos of the soldier in the airport and the child comes running into their arms. Yeah, that's, those are not helpful for, for me either. Yeah. And so we, we have all these reminders all the time, right. Standing for the national anthem at the Bronco game yesterday and honoring soldiers every day when you are in a restaurant and a soldier walks in in uniform, all of those videos you see on Facebook of the soldier, you know, coming off

the plane and the family hugging up and the news, the news is just nonstop reminder. So what do you do in your grief to handle all of these triggers? For me, what I've found that works is limiting my news and media intake. Honestly, I've really had to set up some boundaries for, you know, what news sources I follow, I watch on television. Over the years, I've realized what my triggers are, because it really does. It brings up the trauma when you see those things. Suddenly your day is like, okay, that just threw me off. Especially certain times of the year, if it's around an anniversary or a birthday or something that you're already kind of feeling a little more raw. I've found that I really have to limit on my phone. I'll have a certain app where I'm like,

okay, I'll go here for my news. I'll look at it for maybe 10 minutes. That's my daily check-in. And then I turn it off because you need to be able to still function in your daily life without constantly, you know, I mean, it's going to happen here and there, but, you know, turning the image off, if you have the opportunity, if you have the option, if you're like, okay, this is triggering, I'm going to shut this off right now and focus on something else. Cause it is, it's always going to be popping up somewhere and it can be intense. Yeah. Yeah. So your daughter now is what is she 12? She's 12. Yeah. She's going to be 13 in January. So my niece just started her freshman year and I see a lot of my brother in here all the time. Sometimes that's hard for me. And then when I don't see enough of him and

her, I want to see more. Do you ever feel that way when you look at your daughter? Oh yeah. She has a lot of her dad in her. He was very charismatic, very outgoing, quick thinker. Like she's, she exhibits all of that more and just, it's pretty cool to see. And I do enjoy that. I'm like, Oh, that's sounds like your dad right there. Very defiant. So yeah. Is Ella's relationship with her dad's family, grandma, the aunt that you mentioned? We do have a relationship with her aunt and the grandma. They live far from us in another state. So we don't get to see each other as often as we'd like. And she also has a half sister from my late husband's former marriage too. So we make sure that

they stay in touch too. Her half sister is about years older. And that's a really sweet bond. And we try to do like yearly visits because I want her to know, you know, her whole story and the people that love her. And, you know, cause as she ages, cause she was so young, you know, she has to rely on pictures and stories and videos. And so I really try to share those with her through the years as she gets older and realizes more, you know, cause I'm years as she gets older and realizes more, you know, cause I'm sure as she ages, it'll hit her differently, you know, how her life

started out. And yeah, I had my niece out here for like six weeks and one day we were laying there and she was just having a rough day and we were just crying together in my bed. And she said something to me that never dawned on me. She said, sometimes you guys all talk about my dad, like you expect me to have emotions and I don't have any. And it's not because I don't care. It's because I didn't know him.

Right. Yeah. I never got to meet him. And I sat there and thought, oh my God. Wow. I never thought of that. I mean, I'm showing her pictures. I have his uniform framed on my wall. I'm going through letters that he wrote to her before she was born. And like, she's just stoic and awkward. And I realized, wow, first of all, maybe it just wasn't time for all that. And second of all, how sad that she felt so uncomfortable in it. And she said, even at school and she's

part of taps and she's in all of these summer camps for children of soldiers and they've lost parents. And she said, even then they'll be in groups with a counselor and all the kids are crying and talking about their dad. And she's just sitting there awkward. Like, I don't feel anything. I didn't know my dad. Yeah. I think that it's kind of similar with Ella because she gets older. She'll be able to tell me more about how it makes her feel, but I do sense there is a separation for her there because, you know, sort of like this story that she's heard, you know, growing up and she's read my book and she's like, mom, your book is really sad. You know, I appreciate learning about, you know, your relationship with my dad. And, you know, it's, I don't know, it's interesting, hard to know sometimes how much to

share with her. You know, I just try to stay as open as I can. I always let her know if you have questions about anything, you know, I'm an open book. You know, this is such a huge thing to happen and it's going to impact your life. And I just, I want her to feel like it's not, you know, Oh, we can't talk about that. That was a long time ago. You don't remember. She does hear about her dad sometimes through stories, other people tell and things like that. So, so yeah, I feel like I'm learning every day with her and how to support her, how to talk about things with her. You know, people have these different things that they do to honor loved ones that have passed away. And I think sometimes we're quick to judge or I have felt judged sometimes like, why do you still have a birthday party for your brother?

You know, or why do you let balloons up in the sky? Or some grief counselors had expressed just not attaching to those dates. And it's interesting because we all handle it different. In your experience, what kind of things have you found that help you with your grief to honor your son and your husband? And what experience do you have to offer our listeners that might be going through grief around how to do that? It's interesting because every year I feel it's a little different and I've learned that I try not to place a lot of pressure around how to

honor them on those days. Cause at the end of the day, it's really like, I need to go with how I'm feeling and not place extra pressure and guilt on top of what that day already represents. So there's times when on my social media, that's maybe a, like my dad wrote a poem for my son. And so sometimes I'll share that poem or there's the image of an owl. My sister, the day that my son died, she saw an owl come and sit outside her window before she had received the news. And so she said, you know, I see him in that owl. That image of an owl has sort of come as a representation of my son. And I might just

share a photo of an owl that day, maybe share something on grief that I'm feeling. Or if I don't feel up to sharing, I might take a walk out in nature and just have an hour to myself where I can just be with my thoughts and my feelings. With my husband, it's a little more public because there's such a large community around him and his teammates and family and military families. Like on my Facebook every year, there's a lot of images of him. There's a lot of posts about him. There's a lot of memories sharing. And sometimes that's hard. You know, sometimes it can be intense for me because it's suddenly like, whoa, there's him everywhere. And it's just a lot. And sometimes I've even felt pressure of like exactly what to say. Cause I'll be like, okay, I'm nine, 10 years in.

What do I say? That's maybe a little different from last year. Or, you know, it started to feel a little overwhelming because sometimes I'm like, I really just want to privately grieve. I don't really want to have to put myself or my thoughts out there on those days. So I've learned that it's okay to take that time for myself. You don't have to like put on a show for other people with your grief. You know, I think it's important to honor it, how, what feels authentic to you.

I really love like quotes and poetry. And so a lot of times I'll try to find passages or, because I don't always, you know, like we were talking about earlier, we just don't always have the words. And so sometimes I'll find the words in some literature that really moved me and I might post that. Sometimes I'll bring out some pictures and show my daughter on the anniversary of his death. Like, you know, just share these with you. Maybe you didn't see these yet. You want to talk about daddy today.

And there's so many different ways you can go about it. I have a friend that they go to, like my husband is buried in another state, so I can't go to his grave site, but she will take her daughters to the grave site and they'll release balloons and have a little service every year. And that's, that's their thing, you know? And so I think it's really about finding what works for you and to not feel like, okay, you have to honor them in a specific way. Cause that's going to look differently for everybody. And we should all be able to honor that. Do you feel like it's molded? Your daughter is, I didn't experience my children losing a father, but during the first, like four years of my daughter's life, my youngest, I lost my mama. I lost my best, one of my best friends. I lost my dad. I lost my kids. And all of it was so, I mean, I had done three eulogies

in like two years at one point, but it was happening so often. Like she literally said to me, I'm going to really miss you when you leave. Like she just, people were dropping like flies, like all of her life, pretty much I was grieving. And so she became so open to the spiritual side because of that. Like she would say stuff like, I'll always be with you, mommy. You know, I mean, at a very young age, because she, she learned empathy very quickly. Yeah, because of my grieving. Yes. Yeah, I do feel that thing that my daughter is more aware of than a lot of kids her age, especially when I was running the grief center, you know, I'd have her come stay there with me sometimes when I was working and, you know, she was for and why people were there, why people might be struggling or

looking sad. And so we, I feel like we did have a lot of conversations that I have to have with such a young child, you know, and that, and I, and that brought me some sadness because I was like, you know, I don't want her to have to think about death right now. I don't want her to have to think about pain like that, you know, and, but it's also, it's part of our lives and I've tried to introduce it in a way that, you know, life is life and death and it has both sides and we can look at it in a, not as necessarily a scary way, but we can find ways to hold space for it. We can comfort each other. We can do positive things out of the grief. And I think she's gotten to witness the beauty that's come out of facing grief. So I think she has some wisdom beyond her years there. Yeah. I have a hard question for you. Okay. I don't hold back.

No, that's I'm not into holding back. We had a guest on the other day who was like, wow, you guys don't mess around. You just come straight out with these questions. My friend Angelica shared that she had a little bit of guilt around that second child that she had after she lost her first one. Almost like it was like this replacement. And even my sister-in-law had some attachment issues with my niece at first because she was so, she was grieving so much. She could barely get out of bed, but she also, she wanted my brother back. And she started dating shortly after my brother had passed away and people judged her for that. You know, how could you, and it's not that you, she was trying to fill his void or replace him or that you didn't love him.

There's all these judgments that happen around these things. How did you feel with that, with your daughter being born so quickly after you lost your son? And do you feel judged that you're remarried and like how people look at that as well? Yeah. I mean, I definitely moved through guilt for sure. Cause you know, we always, we just want to do the best we can make everybody happy and it's not possible, especially when you're trying to figure your life out when it's crumbled to pieces. I mean, I can remember feeling guilt even when I was pregnant with my second, you know, I would still cry at night for my son. And because it's hard to hold,

like you have this hope and excitement about a new child, but that definitely does not take away from this loss that you've had. And so I still grieve my son every day, you know, it's a part of my life. And I will always miss like, who he would have been today you know what kind of relationship would we have so I did feel some guilt around that and I didn't really have a hard time bonding with my daughter when she was born I can remember just really letting the joy in when she came and holding on to that but every day my heart would still ache for my son despite the joy and I think that's something that we often aren't really taught that it's okay to hold both like, Oh, well, you should feel all

one or the other. And that's just so unrealistic. So I navigate, okay, like I need to be okay and allow those feelings for my son and also allow the joy of throughout my daughter who's right in front of me right now. So it took a while to become okay with that. And yeah, moving back into the dating world after my late husband passed, I think I did start dating a little too soon. I really needed more time, but I was just feeling so lost and lonely. And so looking back, I wish I would have taken more time for myself because I feel like, you know, it's so hard to move from a relationship where you didn't choose to separate from that person and you had this beautiful love story. And then to go when you're raw and hurting into a connection with someone new, it can be very painful. And you're not trying to replace that

other person, but you just can't recreate that connection that you lost that easily. But I know many widows, many young widows that, you know, they jumped back out there because they were just needing that connection and everyone should be allowed to do things at their own pace. You know, there's no like, okay, you have to wait a year before you do something. I know other women that waited years, and it's just, it's a personal choice. And I don't think anyone should ever be judged around those decisions. No one is in your shoes but yourself. And no one else should have an opinion about those kinds of things that you decide.

You're just trying to cope the best you can. I did feel like guilt. Well, when is it okay? When can I do this or that? And I had to finally just realize, okay, I need to make these choices for myself and kind of shut out other people for a while. And then, you know, there were people that were supportive and those are the ones you want close because there are people that are going to be there that no matter what choices

you make, or maybe you make some mistakes or you fall down and pick yourself up a million times and they're still going to be there that no matter what choices you make, or maybe you make some mistakes or fall down and pick yourself up a million times, and they're still going to be there. Those are the people that are your circle. And I definitely lost a few along the way and that'll happen. That'll happen too. Does it comfort you at all to know that your husband and son are together? Has that ever been a thought that comforted you? It does. When my late husband died, I received his things that had been overseas. And there was a letter that he had written in case he were to die. And it was about four or five pages. He thought of everything, everything. And he reassured me, you know, I'm with our son

and I, he's like, I can take comfort in that. And I know that you're with our daughter and I can take comfort in that. I mean, not everybody gets those words. I hated that day when my brother's cases came home to my mom. I still have them it took her a long time to you know open them up but yeah yeah there were things in there that we didn't expect you know my brother had his the ultrasound picture of my niece in his pocket when he was killed I mean man heavy stuff. Oh yeah. So it almost seems as if guilt is just naturally part of grief. Do you find that? Because like we always, I wish I would have said this. I wish I would have done this. Maybe guilt's just part of grief.

What do you think? I think it's one of our responses to grief because of how kind of, I feel like inadequate our culture is around it. You know, I don't think it should have to be that way, but I think guilt and shame creep up so often around it because I think, you know, we don't want to look at the darkness, you know, and look at the times where we think we're failing or not doing well with something. And grief is such a minefield of trying to figure your way through it. So there's no doubt you're going to just be stumbling through it and feelings of guilt that will naturally tend to crop up. And, and I think

that's so shitty. I mean, I still have guilt over stuff about my dad. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's so crazy how that is. It's so ego too. It is very, I mean, there's absolutely nothing any of us could have done, you know, right or wrong. Right. Exactly. It is. And I think, you know, the more we conversations about it and the more we all put it out there that this is such a human experience, you know, hopefully over time, that amount of grief and shame will start to lessen, you know. Well, that and death as well. You know, I remember this is a huge part of my, do you guys hear that beautiful bird? Yeah. Super close. yeah super close okay i went to the shaman circle i talked about it several times because it just

was a profound moment where i realized that not everybody saw death as final as something that's over and that they much look at it in many indigenous cultures and many cultures as just a transition you know nothing more than a transition and I see that now and I've raised my youngest to believe that as well and she truly does wow yeah you know you should I don't know if you should actually I know Mandy's triggered about watching and listening to other people's um soldier stories um but we had on mandy's brother's master sergeant master for veterans day when i'm and i was i had like snot bubbles coming out my nose i had to be off camera for the majority of the time because um uh he he got to meet and see leah um mandy's brother's daughter for the first time oh wow and it was all on the podcast and it was like god one of the most emotional moments i've ever

experienced but the guilt as their brothers out there that are fighting right alongside each other yeah it's so deep I mean I've had one of my clients he had come in he was a young air force and I had done some reiki on him and this man cried like I've never seen anyone in my entire life cry yeah in fact he tried to leave and had to come back because he literally he he said, I've never let this out before. And it just, once it started, it was like a faucet that wouldn't stop. Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, with like, you know, the military, they're so about being hardcore and just, you know, keep it together.

And it's, I think it's, it's definitely grief can be a very huge, huge challenge for military members. And when I was doing my nonprofit, we worked with some military projects in the community and they were working on providing places where veterans could speak openly, you know, about their grief and their loss and feel supported and safe in it. And cause it's such an issue. And so getting to see that there is that type of work happening really gave me hope. The one thing that Sergeant Tom Campbell said was the more he shared his story, the easier it got, the more he healed by sharing his story with others. Well, and he also shared, it was very powerful. There's this stigma that if you let any of it out, then they might, you know, demote you or not put

you back into your position. And he said that was abs, he's proof that's not true. He kept getting voted and promoted and promoted that it was okay that he wasn't okay. And he was still offered help and able to continue his job and what he loves to do. That's powerful. I have this very interesting thought right now that I've never really put into a sentence and I'm going to share with you and see if you've heard something similar, if you have any words for me, considering this is what you do, you're what you do. Yeah. When my brother died, I knew he was gone from earth. Yeah. But my pain and my anger became more around. My grief was harder around my parents and how they changed because I didn't just lose my brother. I

lost my parents that I knew I lost that five table settings at Christmas that now became four. I lost my mom's very free-spirited laugh is gone. I lost my father who used to giggle and do projects with my brother in the backyard. The grief was so overwhelming for my mom that she became very hardened by this to the point where a lot of isolation, just, she had a hard time even going back out into society. So I really would get angry. Like I'm still here. Jason, my

brothers were still here. Our grandkids are still here. Like I knew my brother was gone and I grieved him of course, but I grieved my parents more because that was so hard that I knew I could never get that old them back. That makes perfect sense. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think that, you know, we don't talk a lot about the other losses that occur around, I guess the big loss, quote unquote, you know, just the main, the loss of a loved one, because we experience so many other losses, we lose maybe our sense of self in a way or somehow we related to the world, we lose, unfortunately, connections with certain people in our lives, because they are handling it in a different way that makes connection very hard. That can take years to figure out or rebuild. And I can understand,

you know, feeling just that anger because it's like, it's easy to just feel like so much is out of your control. You know, you're like, you can process with grief and how you're moving through it. And it's like, you want to be able to help others figure it out too, you know, and I don't know if they were getting support around that. It's, that's a challenge too, because in my life, as I've moved forward to people in my life, you know, it's hard to not want to be able to fix it. Oh, if you would just, you know, get help or reach out or especially if you've done a lot of the work, it's, it's very hard, want to help others do the work and get to a better place. You know, sadly, all we can do just try to figure out for ourselves and be like a, almost like a role model for, okay, this is how I'm moving through it. These

are the things I'm doing to take care of myself. And hopefully that might impact someone else that's suffering, but absolutely extra losses, additional losses. You know, like when I lost my husband, I lost my home. I lost a group of friends that I had that we lived around. I lost my sense of community there. I lost who I was, like, where do I start now? It was just a complete starting over. And that was starting over after also having to start over from losing our son. So it was just constantly a process of, okay, starting at square one again, and just trying to figure out how to navigate relationships.

And my husband and I, we had a very hard time sometimes connecting after our son died because he dealt with it one way and I wanted to really talk about it. And so it was hard to like meet eye to eye sometimes with that and that could be very lonely feeling. And that's why I started going to support groups and counseling. Cause I, I just like, I have to, to put words to this. I have to let this out somehow and find connection.

Closest friends now are now women that I met shortly after I lost my husband. And there are other widows that we could go down deep together with into the muck, you know, and, and not be afraid of it. And so I, it's definitely a different life than I ever expected for myself, you know, 13 years ago. As you know, on our podcast, we talk a lot about everything from aliens to past lives, to talk to rabbis, priests. We, I mean, you name it, we've talked about it. Love it. And we have a lot of spiritual people that believe in soul contracts. And I don't know if you're familiar with that, but they believe that we have, we have these agreements before we come to this life here on earth, where we've agreed to go through

these process of this life by choice and it's to help us evolve. So to help our soul evolve. Now for someone like you, who's been through what you've been through, or I can, I'll just use my mom as an example, cause I don't want to put words in your mouth. My mom would be like, fuck that. I did not agree to this shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what are your thoughts on that? Um, you know, it's interesting cause it's, I don't, and I don't know, maybe this is where like intuition comes in, but I had always had a feeling and I don't know how deep down when I was in my late teens, early twenties, that I was meant to go through something. And I don't know what that meant. Like it was just this weird, almost foreboding feeling like

something's going to happen. Something's going to happen in a way. I don't know. Maybe that was my soul contract saying something big's coming up and you're going to take this on and you're going to be ready for it or not ready, but you're going to figure it out. I'm open to that. I don't know, but I did have some interesting feelings that something was going to happen in my life at some point and definitely not the extent that it did, but I've learned so many different ways of looking at loss, you know, over the years. Where is your faith or your spirituality at today? I do feel that there is like a universal energy, something greater that's connecting us all. I guess it's kind of vague. I don't have a very specific set of beliefs, but I do believe that our source is love.

I really do believe that, you know, we are here to find joy and we're here to spread love. And that's really what I subscribe to. I hold in my heart that, that my son and my husband are in a beautiful, loving place. And that brings me some comfort. My friend's daughter was here the other day. She lost both of her parents by the time she was 19. They died six months apart. It was a real sad time for her. And she had younger siblings as well, but she was here just a few weeks ago. And she said, you know, I wouldn't have anything that I have right now. If my parents hadn't died, you know, I wouldn't have went here. I wouldn't have met my husband. I wouldn't have these,

my beautiful son sitting in my lap. And we talked a lot about impermanence. It's something that I feel helps people get through grief and through the loss that if we're able to really grasp impermanence, it is not grasping and holding on to others so tightly because we leave eventually in some way or change in some way that when our change is happening, whether it is to death or even growth in this life, that we are able to allow people to freely go and grow and leave and transition without losing ourselves. Like we still have ourselves. Right. But we put so much of our energy outside of us.

Like this is my whole life. My children are my whole life. If something happens, I'll die myself. Or this man is my other half. And if he dies, I'm going to lose half of me. Like you are whole, you have to seek love inside and never put your entire life and your happiness and your survival outside of you. It's inside of you. Right. Right.

And I think it's really easy to lose track of that or sense of that. Because you know what? Because it seems selfish in some way. Or it seems like I would never tell someone that who's grieving early. But it does help you just in life in general. Yeah. Yeah. Like, well, and's, it's interesting because very simply Buddha said the root to all suffering is attachment. I mean, but how do you not attach like, hello,

Buddha, could you teach me how not to attach to my child? Exactly. How much responsibility or how much you're putting on someone else that they are the source of your happiness or your identity. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it is hard to grasp. It is your survival, right? I have felt that though. I've, you know, I'm definitely an ex codependent sometimes probably still a little bit, but it's like, I have to realize that, oh my God, their happiness or everything about them does not define me. Like we're all individuals. You all have individual journeys, even your children. Yeah. And yeah. And I think that reveals itself more as we move into our healing, because I think, you know, especially in the beginning, I just remember feeling like half a person, like, okay, I'm half a person now. I'm,

I'm broken into pieces. And it takes a long time to get back to, okay, wait, I'm still me. I'm still some, it might be a more, a different version or an evolved version of myself or something shifted. We're always us. There's always the core of our being there. And I think that's part of our strength, you know, that we eventually realize once we do the work and we move forward with healing. Cause yeah, I just hear that so often with grief is like just people feeling broken, you know, in a million pieces. Some people breathe and hold on to that forever even if a relationship broke up I've seen people so heartbroken like it is a death that can be a lot

of work for some people it's just oh yeah it is I mean I literally thought without my dad I wouldn't be able to survive he was just my rock I mean I was so dependent on him but the thing was is that because of his death for the first time in my life I was able to find myself yeah and the strength to yeah yeah like I I definitely can relate to like I felt like once I went through these losses, I got to know myself in a more intimate way because when you, you really do, you have to look at, okay, who, who is this person? And what am I feeling? And you're really all of a sudden looking deeper and analyzing things about yourself that you might not have reflected on before. So you're moving into like more accepting that this is. Yeah. It's, it's more, it's coming

to a little bit more of a peace and self-compassion too. You know, I'm still a whole powerful, amazing human, and I still have so much to give and to do and a purpose. We all are so purposeful. Yeah. You know, and I want to jump into that. Let's talk about the good shit. Let's talk about that purpose. Where has your pain taken you now?

Let's talk about this book. Let's talk about what you've done and let's talk about all these shifts from pain into your purpose. Yes. So a few years after Brian died, I just had this hankering in me to like, okay, I've got to get these thoughts and things that I've been experiencing down to paper. Cause I just felt I was learning so much in my healing. And I was like, there has to be other people out there that might want to hear this or that can relate. Cause I was just so big on, you know, just creating that

connection and finding like, you know, my people. And so I been thinking about this book for months and I literally, I sat down and I think I wrote it out in about, about two to three months, wrote it. And it's really just sharing my personal journey. And it's got some creative tools and ideas for how other women can process and move through their journey, because there's no one way to do it. You know, there's no one right way to grieve or to heal. So I just really wanted to share like, look, this is things I've done. This is me falling down and giving back up. It's messy. I wanted to put it out there. You know, this is authentically a very messy process, but here I am and I'm still standing and I'm moving through this. And it was very healing for me to just be able to put it out there and to write it down. And it was very therapeutic. The book was initially published in 2013. And through the pandemic, we've all heard, you know, there's so much loss right now that everybody's, I think we're more connecting around big loss, loss of life, as well as life as we knew

it a couple of years ago. And I was just feeling grief around feeling so much isolation and quite, and I'm pretty much an introvert. So if I need to get out and do things like that's like, wow, this is really crappy, you know? So I was like, you know, I really, I have more that I want to give to this book. I had more resources I wanted to add since I wrote it. What I'm going to do this, I'm going to put out a second edition and it just, it felt really good. Like it just felt the right time. Cause I'm like, you know, I think people, there's so much grief out there. I want to continue to put my, my voice out there and to be of support however I can. So the second edition, it just got completed and now available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. So those have been my most

recent projects. And I'm very excited to be doing that right now to help however I can. And your book is called Creative Grieving, A Hip Chick's Path from Lost to Hope. Yes. Now you also have a blog, right? You have an online platform. written as much on my blog lately but one of my other projects that I'm gonna try to get up and going and I am also in the work uh doing a companion journal to the book so uh I've got all sorts of ideas with this pandemic I'm like oh I'm gonna jotting down because because I went through periods of like really struggling with feeling creative and excited about things just so much heaviness you know

and lately I've I've just had this creative energy coming back and like okay I want to put this out there and get out there and do stuff again so awesome yeah well you know what I told Jamie the other night that if I died and he started dating some other woman and I didn't like her I would haunt his ass wait and he looked at me like and I was like I might I was like if I could if I didn't like her mainly that's hilarious well speaking of speaking of spouses I wanted to give a shout out to your current husband I mean it takes it takes a special kind of man to love a widow and I've learned that through watching how my sister-in-law's current husband loves her because he allows her to still love my brother and he allows her to honor him to hang his picture in their home,

to talk about him with their, you know, with their daughter, because my daughter calls him daddy. And he allows her to still grieve. He's he allows her to still lay in bed on day she needs to, to cry. He allows her to go off and travel the world with other widows when she needs be for her soul. And so it really takes a very special man to love and accept all that. So I love that. Yes, it really does. I've been in relationships where that was not the case. And incredible.

And he has been very supportive and open. And I am so grateful that he can honor my story the way he does Mandy remember the other day on the news you and I were watching or something that there's only like how many people in the military that have died since the beginning of this war remember it was like 2,000 or something well so there's there was only 2,000 in one area uh oh that was only 2000 in one area. Oh, that was only one area. Did you look at it? I went back and researched it, but, but still the numbers are very low.

It's I mean, as far as American soldiers, I Shannon and I were talking about that because I was watching the news and I'm like of the millions of people in the world, how did my brother end up being one of that small percentage of people? Yes, exactly. I had very similar thoughts. Absolutely. My sister-in-law was in a very hard space with, you know, pulling out of Afghanistan because she said she was going through the, then what was it for? What was it for? Absolutely. Did you have any thoughts like that? I did have those thoughts going through my head and I did have a lot of through my head. And I did have a

lot of military organizations sending out letters, you know, about stating which I think was wonderful, you know, saying, you know, this, your loss is not for nothing. We still honor we honor you so greatly during this time. And I also go back to, it was really such a passion for my husband. I supported him wholly. And that, you know, that was just his life. He put his soul into everything with that. And he knew, you know, what he was putting on the line. And he was like, this is what I'm made for. He was built for this, you know.

And so I look at it and like, you know, this was his dream. Since he was a little boy, he was like, I'm going to be a green beret and he made it. So I hold on to that knowing that, you know, that was what drove him. That was his life. Thomas Campbell had reached out to me on Facebook and he said, we offered those women and those children freedom for 20 years. We offered them schools and education and so no way was it for nothing. And I also want to tell our listeners, sometimes it's really nice

to hear how social media has been positive because a lot of times we focus on how it's been negative. I will tell you, and I don't know if you feel the same way, but I've been able to see pictures of my brother over in Iraq that I would have never been able to see. And I've been able to hear stories about what he was like over there as a medic that I would have never been able to hear if it wasn't for social media. So I don't know if you felt the same thing, but social media and Facebook was a extremely healing thing for me when it came to my brother and his legacy and his story. Oh yeah. Yeah. It could definitely be such a blessing to have that right available because we have a memorial Facebook page for him and throughout the year, especially during the

anniversaries, people will go there and post a memory or post a picture or share something that's on their mind. And it's very heartwarming and beautiful to have, to know that people are still out there thinking about that, and to just bring those, some laughter or warmhearted memories is very comforting for sure. Thank you for just sharing your heart with us. I know it's hard and we can see the emotions. And so for you to give all of you to us on this podcast means a lot to us. It's your raw, authentic story. Your vulnerability is beautiful. Your pain to purpose is beautiful. So just thank you for trusting us with your, with your story. Thank you. It's, it's really been an honor and thank you. Just thank you for everything. And you're sharing with me too. I mean, and thank you for your

brother's service. Thank you. That ultimate sacrifice to his family, to your daughter, to everyone. And now it's time for break that shit down. I just want to share love and hope and to let anyone out there know that maybe struggling that may be struggling right now or grieving that just one day at a time, one, one moment at a time, if you need to, there is no wrong way to grieve. Like you, there's no right way. There's no particular way you have to move through your own healing and to do it authentically and to be you and to do what resonates for you in your life. And I just want to share so much love with you because you are not alone and you are not on this journey by yourself. There are so many in the world that need your gifts and you are meant to be here right now and to shine and sending you all my love.

That was beautiful. Thank you so much. It was so nice to meet you. Thank you both. I had a wonderful time. Yeah. You know, I just wanted to reiterate the one thing that kept sticking out to me this entire time was community and support.

It doesn't matter where or who just find it. The other thing that I kept hearing was there's no right or wrong way. Find your way. Yes. And thank you because you do radiate love and you do radiate hope. You are hope. So thank you for sharing that. Thank you so much, ladies. Thanks for being with us today. We hope you will come back next week. If you like what you hear, don't forget to rate, like, and subscribe. Thank you. We rise to lift you up. Thanks for listening.