Sense of Soul - Healing the Past, Present and Future

Episode Date: October 1, 2021

We had a very special guest join us on Sense of Soul Podcast, Anisa Fascine Watts author of the book that started Shanna down the most unexpected path, Casborn Creoles; Legally Divided in Black and White. This book was divinely placed at the right time for Shanna at the beginning of her ancestry journey.  She discovers that  Anisa was a long lost cousin and in this episode learn how she became a vital part of Shanna’s journey and the unpacking of the truth of her Creole ancestors.  Anisa was born and raised in Slidell, Louisiana. She attended Marygrove College obtaining a bachelor's degree in 2007. Moreover; she attended Wayne State University achieving her dream to become a librarian in 2010. Anisa loves to read, write, history, to research and to learn. You can find this book on Amazon Casborn Creoles of Louisiana: Legally Divided In Black and White and Anisa can be contacted at: [e-mail] You can listen to the full extended version of this episode along with Shanna’s ancestry healing journey mini-series “Untangled Roots” on Sense of Soul Patreon! www.mysenseofsoul.com

Welcome to the Sense of Soul podcast. We are your hosts, Shanna and Mandy. Grab your coffee, open your mind, heart and soul. It's time to awaken. I'd like to welcome a special guest, Anissa Fajan-Watts. Anissa is the author of the Casborne Creoles of Louisiana, Legally Divided in Black and White. She is also my long lost cousin. And I am so excited to be able to finally share this story. How you doing? I'm doing well. How are you? I am doing good. I'm trying to get my camera together. Anissa, this is Mandy. Pleased to meet you, Anissa. You too. You know, and I just kind of want to go back and just lay this out how I even know Anissa. It was divinely guided. I took my DNA test,

Mandy and I, for a night. We were actually out with the girls on the highway when I got my test back. I wasn't really that surprised that I had African blood in me. I mean, I'm from Louisiana. I mean, in my generation, that seemed to be definitely possible. We have dark people in my family, we have light, we have curly hair. I mean, it's like, you know, we've got characteristics that if I was going to tell anybody my results and share this with the family that it kind of needed to have some more information. I was like a six month old sitting in front of a computer at the family that I kind of needed to have some more information. I was like a six month old sitting in front of a computer at the time. I had no idea how to access or really do ancestry at the time.

I decided to build my tree to find out, you know, which side it was. I absolutely assumed it was my copo side. I mean, my mom grew up in the French Quarter. Her mom did and supposedly her mother did. And that is what we knew. My papa, though, being a trawler, he was always, quote unquote, down the road. So we assumed it was him right away, which his family too, but not as much. Not the consent. And he pretty much owned his life being down there. You know, the denial really came with my great grandma and that side of the family. Just never look back.

Never even tell you were anywhere near that road down the road. Exactly. So I can't put together my tree. I can't get past my mom. You know, I'm kind of seeing some things like, it's like, oh, well, that, that looks like that might be my mom's family, but that's not my grandma, my great grandma's name. You know, I don't know who that lady is. So I Google search and I'm also reaching out to some of my DNA matches, which I had over 900 matches of DNA

of people never heard of. And a lot of them have the same last name. Right. Which can be a little different. And none of them were mine. And so I did call my cousin. I said, who are these people? And she's like, they're French Creoles.

So I'm Google searching and up pops the Casborne Creoles of Louisiana, legally divided in black and white by Anissa. And wow, I said, why would she have my grandparents' name in this? I'm just going to go ahead and email her. And actually, I did find the email, Anissa. I still have it. She had just released this book two weeks prior to me finding out this information. Had I discovered this four weeks prior, I may have never even found her book.

It's amazing. It is. And you helped me build this tree. You had me sit down and you told me some things about my family. I was thinking, what? How? What? I think you have the wrong people. She knew about things that really have not been told. And that's interesting because coming from where I come from, it was always the buzz. We knew. We didn't know how. We didn't know why. We didn't know what the real deal was, but we always knew. psychological level, denial, like how the brain can deny what they see, what it brings in,

what it processes, like denial is so deep, weird and awkward and crazy. So denial in a good facet versus denial in a negative or a bad facet. What these people were doing was what they thought was good. It was not a good thing to be Black in those times. And America has reduced itself to Black and white still today, in this day and time, on applications they ask. You know, what should it matter? I'm like, there's not enough boxes. There's not enough boxes know what should it matter the color of a person's skin and they say for statistical purposes so whose statistics I'm still wondering whose statistics

because it's the identity of who you feel you are. You know, the ancestry DNA thing has definitely changed things. I mean, I wasn't just the Creole that I discovered. I also discovered I was 11% Jewish, you know, which also was never told. Right. So there's lots of denials in different cultures. I feel like for myself, I remember people telling me along this journey at the beginning, like, it doesn't change who you are. You're still Shanna. All those things don't matter. It doesn't change who you are. And I wanted to think that at first, but it did change who I was because I realized that everything they had gone through for me to be who I am today, it does matter.

And so once I learned the stories and once I understood and went through it all, it absolutely changed me. And really, it changed me for the better. And it usually does. It usually does. It usually does. If you're searching for answers to something that is really not truly a negative thing, again, perception, some people may take what you found out extremely hard. It may be a negative impact on them or their life or what they consider their life to be. You know, it's just all been a lie or whatnot. But truth of the matter is, is that we're all human.

And if you're a good person and you have a spiritual side, or if you have your identity together for the most, and you go in just to have certain little answers, it can do you a whole world of good. And it really can bring people a lot closer together instead of pushing them further apart. I think it'll bring a lot more people together. I mean, I gained a whole big family, including you. Yes. Can you explain how it is that you came to write this book? So we were told as children that my great-grandfather came from France, Spain, Italy, somewhere. The story changes over time. And he came on this

ship and he got involved with this Black woman and he somehow was able to marry her or, you know, be with her, marry her. And that's where that sign of my family came from. It fit. It fit for years. It fit generationally for years. It described why they were biracial to an extent or somewhat mixed or considered mulattoes for a long time. It also fit with the definition of Creole, you know, a descendant of a French or Spanish settler in Louisiana or in America. I mean, the story fit. And I just thought that, like my dad's side, we could trace his ancestor that entered from Spain, and he married a white woman first, and then when she died, he married a Black woman,

or had a relationship with a Black woman, because the marriage is tricky as well. His place with her, you know, was after his wife's death. So you hear in school and in Louisiana and in America, blacks and whites get mixed in. It was illegal and different negative things. And you grow up thinking about all of this negativity that has been placed on being biracial in America. It makes you think, it makes you wonder, do I come from all of this negativity? It doesn't always come from negativity.

I don't want to take away from anyone else's story because negativity is in the eye of the beholder. But what I mean is that every biracial person that walks in America doesn't come from a story of rape. Every person who is biracial in America doesn't come from a story of slavery. My father has no slavery in his American ancestry, and he does not identify as Black in America. He just, he doesn't. And identifying after you grow up and you become who you are and what do you identify as or what told you were and who you feel you are really isn't a sense of who that person is. And I just wanted to know who I was. Who am I?

How does any of this fit in in my life? And then you said, correct me if I'm wrong, but growing up, you were the darkest in your family. I am. I am. Put some hold on the black sheep. Yes. You wondered that too. I mean, and you also experienced probably different than your sister. I did. My life was different than my sister's. My life is different than my brother's. I married someone Black. My children are the darkest of the grandchildren. My grandchildren are the darkest of the great-grandchildren.

And it's different. And I'm not saying that they don't love them or they don't love us. I mean, I got a call from my father not long after I released my book as well and he was like well you know these people emailed my wife from um ancestry dna and you're my daughter they said you're my daughter and I'm like well yeah I've been your daughter for 40 years now so wow was it really in the back of his mind that because I was the darkest, I really wasn't his. And I told you, he doesn't identify. He doesn't identify as definitely not African-American, but he does not identify as black. How did that make you feel when he said that? I actually laughed because I knew and I know from my research and from just experience throughout life that he felt that way.

I knew. I'm not going to say he ever told me anything like that or that he ever really did anything that made me feel. I mean, I just knew. Like deep down in your gut, you just know, you know. And I look a lot like my father in my older age. As a kid, I think I looked a lot more like my mom and having the browner skin. My mom and Shanna's mama, they look a lot alike. So it's weird. It it just it skips generations.

It goes it comes in and out. Some are darker, some are lighter. I have two granddaughters that same mom, same dad. One is light complected with, you know, like the softer hair and one it's darker complected with not so soft the hair. It's, you know, it's a little, a little more unruly. I think you mentioned it earlier. Some come out darker, some come out more curly hair, some come out straighter and it skips generations. It's really interesting. It is very interesting. So going back to your story, you started to dig, but if you could share the story about like what your great-grandfather went through and why he decided to make the decision that he did. Okay. His grandmother made decisions for, which was their matriarch, for them.

Okay. She had married at 16, per my research, roundabout. Dates are tricky too. But roundabout 16, she married her first cousin. And he was also Black. And they had one child together. Per my research, he died. It's tricky.

We don't have a death certificate. A lot of people say he was still alive, but just knowing the time, it would make more sense that he had died. And she wound up with a recent widow in the area. And the recent widow in that area that she wound up with, we're talking about the 1800s, by the way, was a white man. And he was a SEAL. Which is my mom's maiden name. I am a SEAL. Correct. Which was a SEAL.

So Francois, SEAL, Frank. Yes, okay. They were together. In those times, Blacks and whites could not be married. However, they had a system in place and placage, a passage, if you want to say it more in a French tongue. But the placage of this woman with this man is honored as a marriage in that area. In that time, they bore several children, which was my great-grandfather's mother was born to them. And her name is Victorine. So they carried their father's surname. They were baptized, as in my book, shown he went to a Catholic church in America and had his daughter baptized with his spouse, who was Black.

Well, he was much older than her, and of course he died. And she remarried again, or was placed again. Well, at this point, her children come out looking white. They can now go passe, passe blanc, passing for white. So she's placed again with her new, which last name was Lafitte. And they leave down the road and cross over and they move to St. Tammany Parish, Louisiana. So that trip was not from France or Spain or some foreign country. It was from another part of Louisiana and they moved and they created an entire new identity. And their identity was that they were white she left her oldest child who would definitely show that

she was black in that town now his age at that point he was old enough he was probably already married or close to marriage at that point and And they had land and whatever Blacks had land there. They were not of slavery descendants. They were slavery maybe in another country, but not slavery in America. They were not slaves in America. They were from another country that went through their own slavery situations. But in America, they were free people of color. And he stayed there.

So when she left with Francois' children and her new husband's children and moved to St. Tammany Parish, they were a white family. So that's how they did their transition of being white. So they get there and Jarville, which is my great-grandfather, was a young boy at that time. He was taken with his mother and his grandmother over to St. Tammany Parish

and his mother remarried. And she married someone who was also passe blanc. All right. So when she married a passe blanc also passe blanc. All right. So when she married a passe blanc, she didn't marry a full white man, which is usually the point is to marry fully white. But he was white enough. Okay. And she married him. That line was created when she married him.

So Victorine was remarried to an ordon. But they all were not as white content. And the contents are explained in my book, Mulatto 50-50. And then you can move up into being basically fully white. And this is caught in How Much You Dilute by marrying white over and over again. So Darville fell in love with one of her new husband's nieces. So of course they were not related. He fell in love with her, but she was obviously black because her father married a former slave. Most of Augustine's children chose to marry white people.

Not everybody could. You have to look more white. You have to date in the white realm. So a lot of them owned it and went white. And the ones that owned it and went white, they wound up going all the way to the Supreme Court to get their feelings heard. That's also in the book, that they were not pure white, that she was Black and she did the change. And, you know, to this day, I go to Louisiana and I see these people and they still, even with my book written, they won't speak to me. They will not. They will not look at me.

They will not acknowledge it, play bingo in the bingo hall with them. And they stay away. They won't even hold eye contact at all. You know, so it is still a secret to them. It is still the denial. It's set in so deep. They don't want to hear it. It's blasphemy to them it is wrong why would she print something like that I mean it went to the supreme court people this is not I mean it's not a secret it's just you know living your world and I'll live in mine but we share the same earth so anywho he he married someone who you could tell was Black, and she had a slave ancestor, which was really not accepted. And I'm quite sure from the paperwork I've read, Augustine totally did not want that marriage to take place. She had provided him with a white life. Some of her sons just never got married because the men don't change. I mean, it's very, it was very dangerous if he would have married white. So he needed to marry as light as possible. If that makes sense, he was supposed to marry as

light as possible. Meaning not dark skin, not showing African ancestry probably like me right yes oh yeah you were born when the change had already been placed there was no way you were going to marry black you were going to marry white and they were going to ensure that you were going to marry white that I can guarantee to you. So he really was the black sheep of the family then? He became, he became, he became, yes. And how did they accept that around St. Tammany at the time? Burning of houses. They thought he was a white man being with a black woman. And the truth be told, he wasn't even white himself. He looks white. He died a white man. He died, you know, they felt like he was white. As the time changed

throughout history, that time span, my grandfather was born in 1909. So by the time my mom came along, my grandfather's children, my mom, she knew she was mulatto to an extent. She knew she was mixed. How? She didn't know. A lot of secrets were kept. They were next door to children that were their cousins and they wasn't even allowed to play with them. I've heard that same story from my family. Not at all allowed to associate. They were white and they stuck to their white ground. And especially if the woman married a white man, you couldn't associate with your Black family. Anyone who showed the obviousness of color, I'll put it that way. Italian is used quite often. Spanish

is used quite often. But these are historical mulatto people. Italians are mulattos, everybody. Listen today. If you're Italian, you have African ancestry. The Moors crossed the Strait of Gibraltar. The Moors were Black. They were from Africa. Egypt is an Africa people. Morocco is an Africa people. I know we've redone the whole world to state that they're Middle Eastern. Get the globe pointed out on there. I mean, I had that argument with my sister. So it's like, Egypt is not Africa. And you went, you actually went to some of these places in your journey. I have. I went to Africa, definitely.

Definitely. I haven't been to North Africa. I'm headed. I'm headed. I'm headed to North Africa. I went to South Africa. In my journey, I went there because they had three levels of race there. And that was so interesting to me. The three caste system.

Yes. So they had white, colored, and black. And colored would be equal to being a mulatto. So let's talk about that, mulatto. Some people see that term as very, very derogatory. I mean, they don't like it. I've heard that. I think that a lot of people don't realize that at one point there was more of mixed race in Louisiana than there was of not. Black or white. Everybody wants it to be black or white. The three-tier system

doesn't work for them because where do you place the middle tier? That's where the one-drop rule came in and they created this rule. If you have one drop of Black blood in you, you're Black. We're not taking any chances. We don't want our good white kids to wind up marrying someone who has African ancestry. If you just put them all in this category, if they have one drop of Black blood, put them over here. They're black now. They've been stained. It's a problem. You know, America, it's just easier for them to put everybody in a box. So while you're still checking a box on your job applications, and you're checking a box on your children's school application, and you're checking a box at your doctor's office to state what you are, who you are. And it doesn't work that way.

It just doesn't. I deal with identity now. What is your identity? Who do you identify as? Because for me, I identify as other. I have always identified as other. I will continue to identify as other, period. I'm other. I'm not black or white. It's not that simple. I am not that person. I'm just not. Growing up here in Colorado, people used to always ask me, like, what are you mixed with? And I was like, what? I'm not mixed with anything I might what are you talking about you know you look like you're mixed with something and my kids

went through the same thing but then after this whole you know all these years when someone asks me now like what what are you mixed with they still ask me I'm like that is a long story and I'm gonna need like a few hours to explain that but you know what's really interesting is that I'm more German than anything and I was very foolish to believe and think that that German had only come from my father now knowing you know coming from Ambrose Haydell and some of the Germans who were on those same boats as the French and who knew there were German Creoles. And that's what my new journey is. It's my German Creole side. Well, I'm going to definitely like that one because I'm not sure if we have that same line,

but I do have Manuel Andri in my tree and, know and I'm not proud of that and some of those things were really hard to swallow I you know how did you deal with that that wasn't a direct of mine it was not a direct ancestor of mine I think I went through it with you I just never really I didn't have to deal with slavery in that portion of my direct line. That book totally does not touch on the fact that he married someone with a slave history. It's where the slavery came into that line. But it was after slavery was over. It was, you know, something totally different.

And that's a whole nother book that they want me to write. But I need to do one for my dad's side first. But when I went through that with you, literally, I did the research and I did it with you. And I was like, you know, Shane, you're going to find some very tough things. And I remember us having this conversation. You're going to be able to accept them and pray on them and, and understand that times were a lot different back then than they are now. And things that our ancestors have done, whether it had been good or bad or whatever, it's just about knowing the truth and about how to prevent it from happening again and how to protect yourself as a human being and your soul, your mind moving forward and dealing with the public

and dealing with some of the things that we're seeing in today's time. I mean, it just, it breaks my heart. Some of the things I see, and that's on the white side, the black side, the mixed side, the people, the essence of really, honestly, everything that makes up this country is not all bad. And some of it is, and we have to accept that some of it is, and we have to know how to move forward. You can't bear his sins. This work is not easy. I was open to really knowing the truth of it. Right.

And yes, sure. First of all, Anissa helped me with like my first 20, you know, sure. She helped me with like a large chunk of my tree. And she said, get to know all of them, learn their stories. You know, I could tell you some of them, but it's not my journey. It's yours. And Anissa, it was the most beautiful gift you had given me. Truly, truly, I can't thank you enough. It's been, I'm going to cry. It's been the biggest healing of my life. Awesome.

And that's what I wanted it to be for you. Sitting there telling you the stories and it's almost like a brainwashing if I would have did it that way it's like oh I met her you know this is what she told me and yeah it was pretty cool you know and you keep it moving but what I told you was because I knew you wanted a deeper relationship. We have relationships with our ancestors, people. We do. We have relationships with our ancestors, just like we have relationships with our living relatives. And those relationships could be good. Those relationships could be bad.

You want a lot more of the good relationships to have an understanding than you want the bad. You want a lot more of the good relationships to have an understanding than you want. Yeah, you do. The bad. I've gone through shameful periods knowing what some of my ancestors did. They're not the ones that I connected with. The ones that I connected with are slaves. And even though you may see one as weak or strong, let me tell you, it is the lineages of the worst stories I've ever heard that these people went through. That I've gathered my strength because I am a result of them. And I am so proud and thankful that I even exist because of them. Exactly. And to own it, to be proud of it, is what they would have wanted.

They prayed for that. You know they did. Yes. Yes. They would have wanted for you to be proud no matter what. You know, we live on as a result of our ancestors. We could not be here if it was not for the ones before us. I agree. My Black ancestors, my white ancestors, I have gathered a lot from all of them. My identity in its entirety is based on all of them, not just one.

Some of them, that's why they changed over to be white. They were running from the Jim Crow laws. These people would have never decided to be anything other than who they were and what they were if it were not for Jim Crow laws. I would have to be a second class citizen and I have the chance to go be white and I'm going to go and own my piece of America sooner than later. They did not see that ending. Please note, they did not see an end to that. That was their grim reality at that point in life. And it was like, run and go be white or live here as a second

class citizen for the rest of my life and my children's lives and children's children's lives and whatever. We have to do something about it. So they were courageous in their own right. I do not. And I told you that. And I said, each person's journey and the reason why they made the decisions they made they made them for the greater good I don't think they did it for negativity they had to leave a lot behind people listen to me many of them could not speak to their own brothers and sisters anymore we didn't even know they existed we didn't even know she had brothers because the brothers would have carried the last name that would have absolutely pointed to where she was from.

I was so angry. Yeah. And you were really there for me, you know, saying much like you just said. But it was something that I really, truly had to go through to experience for myself to even find that forgiveness and understanding. Exactly. Exactly. So I told you, I'll walk with you. I'll hold your hand to a certain point, but at one point or another, you, if you really want to know, you have to move forward yourself and you have to keep digging and don't let

it get past you. Keep digging, keep digging. Call me every now and then. Let me know what's going on with your research. Because this right now I mean my great grandma's name is completely different the first name and the last name when Anissa helped me discover this I mean it blew my head off my body do you remember when I told you go digging those papers I said go dig go dig you have to go to those papers and you have to dig. But I had to pick my jaw off the ground first. It just was so shocking to me. But I really needed to know what it was that someone would go to those lengths. 85-year-old secret, huge family.

And why would someone deny their culture the memories their their story the pictures that I've received and the stories that I've now learned about her through her brother's families who didn't pass and I mean of course like Anissa said I mean our my family has grown so much through this yes and I wish I would have known those stories growing up I mean, my family has grown so much through this. Yes. And I wish I would have known those stories growing up. I mean, no regrets. I do believe that everything, you know, happens in its time. But I think it's time. Yeah.

That's just kind of why. It's overdue. Well overdue. But, you know, there's a lot of history that hasn't been told. You won't find a bunch of books on Creoles in a library. How many? And most of them will be cookbooks. Exactly. They think we're a dinner choice. It's really sad because being as though it's coming out, there are more people of color choose to identify. We've got to use that word again. Choose to identify as Creole. A lot of the white, per se, will not.

Now they'll say they're Cajun. Cajun. Yep. They'll say they're Cajun. So it's an interesting spin on words. And, you know, I've learned so much through Shanna's journey because I had no idea what either one meant. I had no clue. Like, there's a lot of this history that I was so clueless to. But I will tell you when I did my ancestry, I felt so much shame and sadness that I was as white as white gets because I didn't want to be.

I didn't. I'm serious. I called Shannon. I was just like, oh, my God. Like I'm as white as white gets because I felt shame. I do. I carry that especially after hearing stories like, like what I've learned through Shanna's journey. Don't be ashamed on it and just be a better white person.

Because if this was so life-changing for me and because I am going through it and because of all the history that I learned that hasn't been taught to anybody definitely not in your American history books I feel like I want to share it with people because I feel like it would make a difference if they knew the truth or at least if they were able to expand even their knowledge of their own ancestors and learning that we all have, you know, these roots behind us. It changed me as a human being, not just as Shanna, you know, as just a human. My son had said, mom, you are a white woman. Nobody wants to hear about racial issues from a white woman. I said, well, I understand that. But a grandma who wasn't really a white woman had absolutely denied who she was. And people don't even know that was actually

a real thing that happened. So when I share it with people and they're like, wow, my God, I didn't realize that. I'm like, yeah, did you realize that? No, no, no. I don't think it, I never make it about me. I'm just trying to stick to the history and the fact that did you even realize that Louisiana was more than just one fucking state? And it was 16, it touched on 16 places up and down the Mississippi.

I had to first point out that. I know. Just almost giving them those breadcrumbs to go and discover the real truth about how this country started people to this day when I spoke to the DNA cousin and I'm working on our story he is a very very high content of German I'm a lot lower content of German and more French and Spanish, but I knew the German was there and I never knew how. And I'm working on how now. You kind of put it together. It was Germans on the boats with the French and the Spanish that were coming over at that time.

It gets to be really tricky. And then you have to look at the way it opens up when you look. You start off with a mom and a dad and then you have 10,000 people that are related to you in a tree and you you know you're trying to get to know every last one of them so can you imagine how much how much my brain suffers oh my god and what was so funny and he says i said well i found all about this one and then you said you just wait they're gonna keep knocking on the door and oh my god I was wrapped up in that shit for years it was like I had miles of ancestors waiting for me they just keep knocking and knocking it's like I want to be heard I need to be seen I need you to

know my story too this is important listen to me listen to me. And I'm like, and I told you sometime, I just have to shut off my phone, shut off my computer. You were interested and you were ready to dig. I was ready. And you know what? I realized that healing needed to be done. But guess what? In January, my cousin and I took a road trip to Dave Ann. Oh, wow. I had been in contact with my mom was first cousin. They actually lived in the home that my great grandmother's father lived in. And so we show up to this little, I mean, I think it's a store. I mean, it was kind of like an in between a gas station with no gas. And they had few people in there and they're on the back of the wall. There was all these black and white pictures. So I'm, I'm looking at the pictures

on the wall and all of a sudden I sense this lady next to me and she's looking at the pictures now too. Yeah. And I'm like, um, I think my family lived here then. And she was like, who's your people? We're all, there was six people in that store and every one of them were related to. Yeah. My grandparents' last names. And so, and of course they knew who had sent us to the cemetery. Well, the constable walks in and says, let me take you on a tour. And there we follow him and he tells me all this right here was your land.

And, and then he said, this is where the first french creole school was this is where i went where you know he's saying my grandparents went and your your great-grandparents went we went to the cemetery which is one of the oldest there i was standing literally on my family's tree. Wow. And it was, it was amazing. All of them, their last names and all the people, my tree and, and I'm sure some of yours and because there was even films and it was one of the most beautiful experiences of my life. of all these people are relentless they have not only have they gone through racism i mean some of the worst racism comes from placaments with having leander perez in office for over 50 years one of the most racist segregated can you imagine no i would like that history i would love to do history you know but

you know my papa did not like that man he my everyone will tell you my family that he hated him but so they've also gone through so many hurricanes and when you hear that hurricanes took out new orleans let me tell you about what happened to you know yeah the mouth of the mississippi and then bp oil spill these people have gone through so much so that house that they lived in is no longer there because katrina took it out and they no longer have a business there because bp oil still took it out and but yet they stay some of them stayed for for all these generations i don't know maybe Some of them stayed for all these generations. I don't know. Maybe some of them are suffering from what their ancestors did. They still hide it. They still don't want to admit a lot of it. In the fact that we know what took place.

We know that racism broke up literal families back then. But the living have to own their own ancestry. Each person is responsible for knowing their own or for learning about their own and for understanding it. You know, I know for a fact that I have traits from my ancestors. I know for a fact. I'm not I'm not confused on that. That's right. That's. I know for a fact. I'm not confused on that. That's right. That's something I know for a fact. I can look them up and I can read about them.

And I have wrote about them because I carry them with me. You are what you're made of. And you have to identify it and know about it in order to either keep the movement going or to to know about it to be strong about it I do want to touch on the fact of what what your son said to you in a child's mind and whether they're an adult child or a child child your identity is that of a white woman it's not gonna affect you or him but he feels it though it will when I say affect I mean in an honor yeah he fears for that I'll be correct that's I'm trying to say that. That's exactly it. He doesn't want you to get hurt behind what you found, you know, and that means destroying relationships that you have or that you could gain or would gain or, you know, learning about it, sharing it. And you have.

You've come a long way. Also knowing the struggles and the limitations that are set, even with learning about it and sharing it. But Anissa, the one thing I've learned probably the most is that white privilege is a real fucking thing. And I need you to say that. And that, to me, is one of the reasons why I want to speak out. Because if you ever fucking thought that maybe that wasn't a thing, I am proof.

Your experience and my experience, and I have this conversation with people when they still tell me, yeah, you know, I don't know why Black people really think that that's a thing. I don't think Black people think it's a thing. In America, it is a thing. It's the darndest thing. It has to affect white America in that facet in order for change to come. And I say that because there's a story of a young white woman from Michigan who went down south to fight during the Martin Luther King era, the civil rights movement. Her name was Viola. But Viola was killed during that time. She was killed. And she is historically famous. She is a white woman from Michigan, where I actually currently live. I learned about her years before I ever did this book, just on a whole civil rights movement research project

that I was working on, trying to learn about it. But if it wasn't for young, white, American women and men that just knew that it was something wrong going on, that stood up, that helped out, the civil rights movement would have never been successful. White people controlled this country at that time. And although some of them still believe that they are more privileged than Blacks and that they deserve more or that they've done more for this country than Black people have done in in their way of thought if it wasn't for

the white americans that stood up for black people we would not be anywhere today and that and that's just the truth whether it's a real white person or a half white person or a passe white person or whatever. This woman was a white woman from America that stood up for Black people and wound up being killed for it. She paid the ultimate price. She was sacrificed in that era and is known for being sacrificed. And then she was a young college student. She jumped on a bus.

Yeah, but why don't all of us know that story? I don't know that story. It's there. It's there. It's in the history. It's the innuendos in all of the movies you're watching and all of the books you read. And it's there. And just like your ancestors, in order to find out about it, you have to seek it.

You have to research it. You order to find out about it you have to seek it you have to research it have to find it and that's just the librarian in me before I was even a librarian the reader in me the researcher in me the the person that dug and went beyond what I was told and what I was taught and I need to know more and I need to find it and I'm going to dig for it because all white people are not bad all black people are not bad and definitely all others are not bad people we all can make mistakes we all can do something that's not always perfect per se but to say that the color of someone's skin makes them more perfect or are better than another is the most ignorant and derogatory thing that could ever be spoken or say

it you know and it's hurtful it's it's really hurtful you know it's ridiculous viola greg luzo l-i-u-z-Z-O. Yes. She was murdered by members of the Ku Klux Klan. She was an activist in the civil rights movement in the 1960s. Wow. Thank you for bringing her up. I'm going to thank you.

Read about her. She's one of the people I idolize in American history. Well, there's also another one, a young white priest, for lack of better name, Reverend, who was murdered in Alabama because he came down to support the efforts of the civil rights movement. The control and the sickness of a racist is satanic. What would you like to see changed in the history books and the education in the schools? What would I like to see changed? I would like the truth to be told. That would be amazing. You mean not just a little paragraph? I didn't start learning a lot of the truth.

Exactly. I didn't start learning a lot of the truth exactly I didn't start learning a lot of the truth until I started finding my own truth I had wonderful professors I went to a catholic college here in Michigan yeah we keep talking about that all day yeah I went to a catholic college here in Michigan I don't practice catholic. I was born and raised Catholic. But come on, you got to tell the story about how you went to the archdiocese. You went up in that church.

How did you get those documents? Not today. She's an investigator. Put it that way. And she did a lot of freaking work. And I know that that has impacted so many. I still need them. I need them for a few more documents work. And I know that that has impacted so many. I need them for a few more documents.

And after I get those documents, we'll talk about that one, okay? I promise. We'll talk about it. I love you. You will. But you know what, Anissa? What I told my son was this. Not talking about it, son, is the problem.

It is. I said that is the problem. It is. I said, that is the problem. Pretending it doesn't happen or that I didn't just find out all this history and me not talking about it. That's the problem. You're exactly right. Getting out of the history book.

So when she brought up, what would I like to see changed? If you don't tell the truth, if you don't express it, if you don't tell the truth, if you don't express it, if you don't teach the future generations, we're going to go right back into, we were close. I think we were so close to civil war, literally.

I mean, you know, a lot of people think I'm just- No, I thought the same. I mean, right here in this country, in this day and time, from the time that we met, shocking. It wasn't like that. Now we've been knowing each other and we've been through that. And then it seems like through that whole time, we couldn't even connect. It was just life. But we didn't.

And now that it's over, all of a sudden, here we come again and we can meet up and sit and talk. That was exhausting for a lot of Americans. It was exhausting. It was a lot. It was a lot. You know what I'm having a problem with lately? And one of my struggles is, is I don't trust what people call facts. Like it's a fact. What are the facts?

How do we know that anything's a fact anymore when we have people higher up that control everything we can see, get access to? I don't trust fucking any of it. In this actual research, you bring up an excellent point because

Shana and I, in her document search, were literally able to pinpoint the documents we saw used to change black to white now this is interesting because a lot of times you don't find the actual documents but for some reason in her case i I was like, Shana, I think you can do this. I think you can do this. I really, matter of fact, we were led. We were led. We were, honestly. I said, you and I held hands. Somebody held our hand through that. Shocking. I mean, literally you could actually see a line through one last name

and replaced with another last name i mean and it was not even her maiden name it was her mother's maiden name i mean it just the proof was so black and white that was my son was living with my mom there for six months and he moved back he did not move back because he doesn't love New Orleans or he doesn't love his family, but he just, he hasn't grown up in that culture. He doesn't understand that, you know, David Duke lives in, you know, the same city as my mom. He has never witnessed that before. And, you know, I'm glad that he did. Witnessed what before?

Like racism at its finest. Yeah. dead witnessed what before like racism at its finest yeah it racism at its finest honey y'all want to hear a funny story about david duke oh yes when i was a kid there's a white family that moved in and guess where they were from placamans parish their ancestors were the neighbors of my ancestors the tourniquets i moved in next door to my mom's house when we were kids. My mom was a divorced single mother at the time and a white family, a husband, wife, and three children moved in next door to our home. We lived in a small town in Louisiana, nice brick houses, middle-class neighborhood. We walked to school every day. The people come out to post David Duke signs.

So whenever he was running for that election in history, I don't know what year it happened. They came to put out the signs, you know. And the people next door was like, yeah, you can put a sign. And I'm sitting out on the porch and I'm like, I know they're not going to put this damn David Duke sign out here on this street. You got Black neighbors on this side, Black people on this side, another white family right here, white family across the street, Black family across.

We don't want a David Duke sign on our street, okay? But it's their lawn. You do what you want to do. So they come to tap it into the ground. Same thing they do today in America. They tap the little lawn signs. And it's David Duke and it was blue and white signs. I'll never forget it.

So the guy comes down a little further and he's like, can we put that? I said, man, you put a David Duke sign out. I said, my mama gonna come home and kill me. I said, you need to pick up that one you put over there. I'm like, no, we don't want to take it. We don't need those problems on this street, son. Please, you and your little signs.

Just go away, go away, go away. So that evening, the wife came home and she gets out of her car and she snatches the sign out the ground and throws it in the garbage and they removed their own sign. But the husband and the wife's view was totally, obviously different. But in a political aspect, you can live in the same household. These people's ancestors was the neighbors of my ancestors, guys.

Listen, what's going on in your life, in your household, in your world, it can come back around. Oh, come back around. you want to hear the craziest story about mandy and her ancestors okay so the putman sisters accused my ancestor okay and putiator of being a witch and she was 70 years old when she was hung as a witch. Salem area? She was one of the 20 that were hung in the Salem. Okay, go ahead. I'm a historian.

I'm sorry. I know a lot. Oh, no, no, it's all good. Okay. Then Shanna and I did a retreat here in Colorado and there was two girls who joined our retreat, the Putnam sisters. And Shanna found that the Putnams were in their ancestry.

So us three are sitting around doing like work in Colorado in the mountains. Like what are the odds? What are the odds? It happens. So you see what I'm saying? A lot of people think I'm like crazy when I say these things. Historically, it comes back around. It's going to touch somewhere. If you can find it, that was one of your biblical moments. You found it. You found your cross. You found that cross to bear. You actually knew.

You understood. You knew the story behind it. You knew. Do you know how many people are walking around lost in this day and time who has no sense of who they are, where they came from, what it really is, what has happened, what has been done. It's crazy. Because then you, once you know, then you get to choose to change. You can look back and say, this has been happening for generations. And this shit stops with with me right here with me right now at this moment yes and acceptance of differences is what america needs to focus on but the the

greed of the whole money is what we are still living under a curse from now. Slaves have never got reparations slaves, you know, and we took in a whole nother country's issues and gave their, their people reparations at times. And it didn't even happen here on this soil. It had nothing to do with this country and something that you did to a whole race of people that live here in your country today you won't even acknowledge you never gave reparation

you know it's just it's kind of sad do you know that i read something and you said that by the year 2055 i think they predict that everyone will be another in America. And I agree. I think I've always seen that as the turnout of what would happen. Let's talk about that. It happened in France for the most part at one point in history. It's happened in Spain one point in history. It's happened in Greece and places like that. They are others, guys. The majority of those people are others. Why would you only want to be one thing?

I don't know. When you do your ancestry and you realize how many, I mean, my ancestors are long. And I've done a lot of, I've helped a lot of people do their trees and I never see anything so colorful but you know what I'm connected to all of those people all over the world that's beautiful you have a really interesting mix with your with your father and especially and I know I got some trauma girl I know I know it's so amazing. It's amazingly you. It's amazingly you. It is what it is.

It is. We're human beings. That's right. All of us. We're all human beings. We're part of one race. I need for people to understand this. We're all part of one race.

We're part of the human race. That is really, truly the only race there is no difference in any of that that makes anybody any different all those studies that were performed and all of the stuff in the cranium and this and the whatever and ridiculousness ridiculousness okay ridiculousness interesting but i i wrote about that i do a thing called raw. And I wrote about the time I sat with my brother's master sergeant. Okay. My brother was killed in 2007 in Iraq and was right next to him when it happened. And I'll never forget his sergeant telling me he wanted to go live in Afghanistan. And this was after he'd done eight tours. And I thought to myself, why in the hell

would you want to go live in Afghanistan? I thought he would want to never leave American soil again after what he had seen and the things that he'd done. And he said, Mandy, those people are so kind and they're so hospitable and they're so grateful. So in my writing, I talked about how his stories made me realize that those people, those are our aunts and uncles right now over there that are afraid to come out of their home, that are falling off the airplanes. Those people are our aunts, our cousins,

our neighbors, our friends, our uncles, our mothers, our daughters. Humans are human. People are people. Yes, they are. Yes are yes period it is and it's that thought process that if america could get there and realize that we're all of one race we're a human race and if you could just love one another for your likes any differences you know what i mean and just keep it moving the world would be such a better place it would just be a better place my dream entirely and mine

too too i think it will if the thing is is that people don't realize that this is still new the racism in america america is new people don't think about all of this they think it's so old and it doesn't you know oh god get over it so long ago it wasn't it's still happening it's so old and it doesn't, you know, oh God, get over it. So long ago, it wasn't, it's still happening. It's going to take time to heal. You cannot just put a bandaid on shit. I agree. And America bases a lot on what that 12 step program always hear that the first step is admitting that there is a problem. Always.

There is a problem. America needs a 12-step program designed. Yes. To get us out of this mess we're in with understanding, not understanding and each person that walks into that 12-step program and admits that there's a problem would be able to walk through the other steps to heal and to understand and to move forward takes about a 12-step program I don't know the other steps so step one is that I admit that I am powerless over alcohol and that my life has become unmanageable. So I admit that I am a racist and, and I am ignorant to the fact that we are all of the human race and it has taken a power over me. Amen. And you know what I mean? Just work out a 12 step program for them and get them on

their way to being better human beings. Because that creates change. I'm on it. It does. Look at how race and racism is just affecting the world today. What about the Meghan Markle and Prince Harry marriage? It was just supposed to be this beautiful thing.

It was not going to be any racism over it. It was going to be, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever. And then you find out that, of course, they're worrying about how dark the baby might come out. Future children may come out.

Guys, these are the untold true stories. Listen, people worry about this stuff. 2021. 2021, they're worried about it. I predict that 100 years from now, when we're going to look down and watch a podcast going on, it'll be an alien from another planet on there talking about you know what i mean it's talking the same shit it'd be interested in

here but i thought it was hilarious the pope said well if they're real i will baptize them yeah why not huh you're baptizing everybody else fool yes i guess you say we'll take them too they yeah yeah jesus in their life oh my god and now it's time for break that shit down if you take one thing from this episode and you learn something new today, talking with me, that right there will make me happy. That's my last thought. If you learned one new thing today through this episode, that will make me really happy. Well, I mean, Nancy says it all the time. We're students for life.

Yes, always, always always we should always be willing to expand definitely expand knowledge learn something new every day and if you learn something new then you know i learned something new that your ancestor was one of the 20 in that uh salem which is always interested very interesting to me. I don't just research my own ancestry. I research history, period. God, thank you so much. Felt like I just wanted to thank you too for guiding Shanna. And it's been beautiful to see and hear how you have helped Shanna on her journey. thank you thank you so much thank you and you are very welcome and shana is a better person for it she is uh wiser because of it

and i'm so proud of it let me tell you i'm proud i'm so proud of where i come from but i have to laugh it was like summertime mandy came over and I was watering my grass and she walks up and she goes, you could have never passed in the summer. She gets dark. She does. It is. You have a beautiful entertain that no one could ever take from you. Love you, Anissa. I appreciate you so much. Many blessings.

You too. Join me on my ancestral journey as I untangle my roots and set out to uncover the stories of a forgotten culture and discover true history never told. You can find my special mini series on my ancestral journey

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