Sense of Soul - It’s Not Over Begin Again

Episode Date: February 15, 2021

We had an amazing conversation with Pastor Joshua Gagnon, he is the founding and lead pastor of Next Level Church, regularly recognized as one of the fastest growing churches in America.  He is the host of "Joshua Gagnon Leadership Podcast" and "Outspoken Podcast".  He recently wrote his first book titled "It's Not Over", Leaving Behind Disappointment And Learning To Dream Again, where Joshua reminds us that we were born to with a purpose and to follow our passion, by asking “What breaks your heart?” Thanks @PastorJoshGagnon for the inspiration to hope again through this incredible book.  Grab your copy at itsnotoverbook.com  #ItsNotOver Visit mysenseofsoul.com

Welcome to the Sense of Soul podcast. We are your hosts, Shanna and Mandy. Grab your coffee, open your mind, heart, and soul. It's time to awaken. Today with us, we have Joshua Gagnon. He is the founding and lead pastor of the Next Level Church, regularly recognized as one of the fastest growing churches in America. He is known for his uniquely authentic communication style that makes the hope found in Jesus relevant to people of every background. He is here today to talk about his amazing book, It's Not Over, leaving behind disappointment and learning to dream again. He is also the podcast host of the Joshua Gagnon Leadership Podcast, as well as the Outspoken Podcast. He is a busy guy with a great message and we're honored to have him today. Thank you, Joshua, for being with us.

Good to be here. So do you do podcasting all week as well? It feels like it. I've already done a few of them today. It's kind of the hot thing right now, isn't it? Everybody's doing podcasts. It's a good opportunity to have conversations. People are spending more time in their vehicles than ever before. So I think it's a good opportunity to have conversations.

And now we can even see each other while we have conversations. And so, yeah, I do a lot of podcasts. You not only do a lot, but you have a lot of episodes. I mean, you are a busy man. I was listening to the one this morning with Dr. Gary Chapman, of course, because we all love the five love languages. I also listened to the danger of secret sin changes constant and you have a lot of episodes and as fellow podcasters, we know how much work that is. Yeah, I have a great team. So basically, often, they'll just tell me to sit down, they'll put a mic in front of my face and ask me questions. And I just talk for a little bit. And they're like,

okay, all right, we'll use that as a podcast. And so I have a great team that I'm honored to be surrounded by. But I enjoy podcasting. Like I don't enjoy the fake podcast. Like, you know how you can kind of polish podcasting and kind of make it exactly what it was never supposed to be. Like you can almost professionalize it in a way. Yeah. I like just having raw conversations and just being who we are. Cause I think it's in those moments, people relate to those and like, you know, I think you guys do a great job of that. And so, you know, just us talking now, I think that's where people, they want to enter into conversations that are normal, that are not produced. So we try to do that. So it's not too hard for me to,

you know, my wife says I'm, I'm all right at talking. And so I was always told I had the gift to gab too. So, you know, here I am, but I agree. You know, a lot of people want to really plan ahead of time and kind of come up with an outline. And we're like, you know, we just let God lead the conversation and just make it as natural as possible and always trust that what is supposed to be heard and said will be exactly that. Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree.

When you were little, did you always have dreams of being a pastor? No, I had dreams of being a professional athlete, which I was able to play on some professional level athletics. And so that was my- You were a hoopster, right? Yeah, I did a little bit of hooping and the hula hoop, of course. So yeah, that was my dream. And so I played sports, sports, sports, sports, sports. And my parents went to church and I would go with them when I didn't have a game. Always had an understanding of God and always believed that there is a God. And I just couldn't wrap my mind around the fact that we just somehow just got here like

ta-da. And that's just me. I don't put down people who feel different. Like, you know, I think the term pastor has gotten a lot of judgment, rightfully so. I think a lot of times people with my title or my quote unquote profession don't have a fair understanding that like, I don't have to be right. And I don't have to convince you that I'm right. And you don't have to be wrong. We can just kind of do life together. But my belief has always been that, yeah, there is a God. Growing up, I kind of held that loosely, went off to college. I certainly wasn't a pastor in college and then got out of college and played some

basketball. And it's when I came home from school, my dad had gotten sick. He got in the tumor and they said that they weren't sure if he would make it by God's grace. He he's still with us. When I came home to help run his drywall company. And my mom said, there's a, there's a real pretty girl playing the piano at church. You want to go to church? And I was like, sounds like, sounds like God's there. So I hadn't been to church in years. Oh my God. That is brilliant. There's so many parents out there that she knew that. Yes. That's my mom. She's ghetto. I'm telling you, she knew exactly what to do in that moment. So I walked in and I ended up dating that girl for a

few years. Didn't work out, but I did meet my now wife, Jennifer, at that same church. But while I was there, God used that relationship to really capture my heart. And I started kind of bouncing this question off my own heart. It was like, how could we start a church where people who didn't know if they believed in God and weren't sure about faith and even didn't believe in God, how can I start a church where people like that can come sit down and not feel judged, feel loved, feel cared for? How could we start a church? How could we do church in a way where everybody from every background with every thought could just come together and we didn't have to hate, we didn't have to convince, we could just be and figure out and each person could figure. And so we started church 12 years ago with that in mind.

And then boom, I'm on podcasts. Wow. I love that. You know what? You want to hear a funny story? I'm not sure I've ever shared with anybody. Or well, I've shared with people, but maybe not our listeners. You know, in high school, when they make you pick your career for like your senior project

and you have to you know write down what colleges you're going to go to and all these things I actually did mine on being a pastor wow really yeah and this was in the 90s so it's not interesting I did not know that about you Shanna Banana yeah I still have the paper and everything I should read why did you do it on that like what was the driving force behind that? I knew I wanted to be a mother. That was one thing I always knew I wanted to be. And I just, I really enjoyed church at the time a lot.

I was always trying to bring people to church. So I'd like that whole Holy Spirit feeling that would come over me. And so when other people would have that experience, I'm like, did you feel that? Like, it's not amazing, right? Isn't that so cool? And I guarantee there's a lot of people, maybe even who are listening that were friends of mine then who would totally remember that I was all about, let's go to church group together, you guys. And my parents, well, they were Catholic. And I liked to go to like the fellowship church because I digged the music. And so I would ask my dad to bring me and drop me off at these random churches throughout high school. Josh went for the hot chick on the piano. You went for the cool music. And I went for the coffee bar.

But guess what? God, our ass is there, right? We were right. You could have been asking your dad to drop you off a lot of places than churches around town. Oh, don't worry. I was asking him to drop me off at the library a few times where I had a friend ready to pick me up and I wasn't at the library, but I did believe that God was forgiving so there you go oh my gosh that's a great story Shanna I never knew that I know

don't don't tell too many people we'll keep it quiet just between us yeah I was completely shocked at the fact that a few years ago, when you thought about putting a book out, there was a publisher that told you you couldn't write. I mean, talk about a dream crusher. You know, what kept you going to fulfill this dream that you had? Yeah. I had an, you're talking, I had an agent reach out to me and the agent was like, listen, you're pastoring this big church. You communicate all the time. Why don't you write a book? Have you ever thought about it?

I was like, yeah, of course I've thought about writing a book, you know, because as somebody who teaches all the time, nobody remembers what I say by lunchtime on Sunday. And so, you know, what I'll do is I'll put it on a book and my kids will at least remember it. And so we went out to every major publisher and every major publisher said, no, they said it was because I lived in New England and we had most of our locations in the Northeast and it's the least church region of the country. And they said, listen, nobody buys Christian books there. And so I was like, okay.

Yeah, that felt pretty shattering. I remember I was in the, I got in the shower. I was very emotional. My wife, I didn't even tell Jennifer for like a week or two because I didn't want to feel like a failure. Cause she kept asking me like, how's it coming with the book? And I'd kind of like, just pretend I didn't hear it, but anyways, the kids go, you know, like, you know, just kind of change the subject. Cause I just didn't want to say,

honey, like nobody wants me. And, and so a year later, I got an email from a guy named Alex fields. He's actually in Colorado, a book agent and Alex. And he's like, Hey, have you ever thought about writing a book? And when I got an email from a guy named Alex Fields. He's actually in Colorado, a book agent and Alex. And he's like, Hey, have you ever thought about writing a book? And when I saw that email, I was like, what? I was like, never. I don't even ever email me again. I was like, and I didn't get back to the email for a year because I didn't want to face that rejection and that pain. Yeah. I don't want to have to deal with that. You ever had, you get your hopes up, actually feel like something is from God. And like, you feel like God's opening up doors in your life, whether that's a relationship or a career or you name it. And you get your

hopes up. You're like, this has to be God. This is going to, and all of a sudden every door shuts in your face and you're left standing there feeling naked. You're like, what just happened? So I was super mad at God. I was like, like, I was super mad just thinking like, I didn't even go after a book deal. What in the world just happened? How did I get all these no's? You know, I already didn't feel good enough to write a book. Number one, I can't spell to save my life. Punctuation. I don't even know where to put it. Right. And so here I am stepping out on a limb and everybody denies me, rejects me. And so now I got to tell my wife. And then a year later, someone else says, do you want to go back out on that limb again?

And I was like, hell no, I am not going out on that limb again. No way. That's when I got that email and I ignored it for a year. But like that Holy Spirit thing you talked about, I kept just feeling this desire, these small whispers to step back out on that branch again. And so I emailed Alex back and I was like, hey, let's try it. And we did get six of the largest publishers in the country to take on this book, you know, if I can just keep rambling just for a second longer, one of the things that I learned in that moment is something that I wouldn't be able to even say this had I not gone through the no first, is we have to remember that God's delays are not God's denials. That so often in life, we feel like if it doesn't happen right now, it's never going to happen. And what I learned in that season was there's some times

in life where God is just doing more in me than he's doing through me so that someday he can do more through me than I could ever imagine. And, and sometimes in that Valley, it's in that season of no, it's in that season of maybe even a divorce or that season of struggling in that addiction and not being able to overcome it at season where where your marriage is just brutal and there's just negative words or you've been let go from a dream job or that business you tried starting is failing or as a mom, right? You're like, I don't even know how to raise these kids

or as a dad, you're like, it's in those like valleys in life that we feel like God is most distant because we don't see a lot of good happening. But it's in those valleys where I think we're shaped the most for the mountaintops. And so I really do try to live with that perspective. I'm not like pie in the sky, like, oh, great. You know, I just lost my leg. This is awesome. What can I learn? Right? I feel

pain and I understand that. However, I truly do believe that mountaintop experiences, like those moments we dream of, like getting six large book offers, those mountaintop experiences, like those moments we dream of, like getting six large book offers, those mountaintop experiences, you're defined for them in the valley experiences because that's where we're shaped. I don't know about you guys, but the worst relationships in my life have shaped me for the best ones that I have.

I wasn't shaped in great moments. I'm often shaped in bad moments and they shape me into a better person for the greater moments that are to come. And so would say maybe two out of the 75 guests we've had didn't have to get shaped through some sort of really horrific or challenging time in their life. I always have to remember when I am in that storm to throw my hands up and just say, I'm your student. What are you trying to teach me? Yeah. Yeah. And that was a struggle for me. I remember when I first got sober and went into the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous and they told me I had to surrender. I was like, what in the heck does that even mean? Because that word has been twisted into something that it's truly not that people think of it as like, for some reason,

Braveheart movie always comes to my mind where the opposer is holding up the flag and surrendering and saying, we're defeated, we're giving in, we surrender, we, you know, we're laying down our weapons. What does surrender mean to you? I think the word surrender and sacrifice are probably tied together, right? And the word sacrifice for me is giving up something you love for something you love even more. And so, you know, we're giving up control. So like when you talk about, you know, an addiction per se, I'm giving up control when it comes to that area of my life for something I love more. I'm giving up something I love for something I love more. I'm giving up something I love for something I love more. So that could be for somebody that's giving up a certain relationship that may be damaging a relationship they desire more or love more, or giving up a substance for the health and the

wholeness that they love more, that hope that they love more. And so, you know, the truth is, is, is it hasn't this year taught us all how to give up and surrender. If we've learned anything this year, it's, it's, it's that we don't have any control. I mean, this pandemic stole all of our false sense of control, all of our false sense of security. And it taught us the reality is we're not in control, that we're all really needing to be in a position of complete surrender. Because the moment you feel like you have control, you're quickly reminded that can go away in a moment, in an instant. I think that this year taught us that. And so I knew it taught that to me. Like I know if you were to ask me, like, what's the one thing you learned this year? It was that

I'm not in control. I'm not as important as I think I am. I'm not in control. Like I think I am. And at the end of the day, in my opinion, the only thing that's going to remain is my faith and my, my hope in God, because ultimately if God knows the end before the beginning, I can live in this season and still live with hope and faith. Yeah, absolutely. Your book is a lot about dreaming and not giving up on those dreams and trying to discover your purpose, which is totally something that I align with. I believe that a lot of times the world has like other expectations for us. And sometimes we follow those instead of our passions and dreams. I feel like we're always brought back to that path in some way, whether or not it's the exact title. I mean, I'm not a pastor, but I do speak and I do help people

and bring them to their purpose and path and all that stuff. I support that. So it's interesting. I didn't become like something totally opposite of what I wanted to be when I was young. Yeah. So is that kind of like what your book is about is, is, you know, how to support the dreams and the passions that you have within to stay on that purpose? Yeah, I think when it comes to dreams, I think it's kind of twofold. I think the first thing we often think about when it comes to dreams, and really, I tried to find a way to change the tagline. The tagline is leaving behind disappointment and learning to dream again. And I tried to convince the publishers to take the word dream out of it, but they didn't want to.

Yeah, and I respect them because the word dream is a lot like the word love in today's culture. Like we love ice cream and then we love our kids. Right. It's like, how do those, how does that live in the same lane? Right. So the word dream, the way the word dreams the same, like when you hear the word dream, it's kind of like, Oh boy. Right. And so like, I wanted to make sure that this book was twofold where we understand dreams can be like that career you're chasing after, or a dream could simply be to overcome insecurity because you struggle deeply with it. Right. So like there's some people, social media, right. And this hyped insecurity, right. You look at everybody else's highlight reel all day long and you can't help feel horrible about yourself. And so for me, like, what about the dream in our

heart to look in the mirror and actually love who God like, what about the dream in our heart to look in the mirror and actually love who God created? What about the dream in our heart to actually find confidence and not compare ourselves to everybody else's highlight reel. And so I wanted to try to make this book about dreaming, but two different ways, like helping people understand dreams and hopes they align with one another. But when it comes to, you know, coming back to that plan, I do think that God gives us special gifts and special talents and whispers things into our heart. And, you know, I listened to your story, right? And you talk about how you had, like you had written a paper to be a pastor. I was already thinking when you were saying that, I was smiling because really the word pastor, I mean, that's kind of like, so, you know,

just cultural. The reality is you had a heart to help people. That was really the heart there, right? The heart was to love people and help people. And so that's what you're doing with this work that you're doing now, right? You want to help people and love people. Well, then shit, call me Pastor Shanna for now. All right. But I think that that's just so God wired you. Yeah, God wired you. Exactly. God wired you in a certain way. I can remember in school, I was, you know, I was an athlete. So, you know, with the little kids, you know, you sit at a certain table, right? And then you had kids that would sometimes have to sit alone, unfortunately, because kids are just cruel. And I can remember, I had a little bit of influence back in school. And I can remember, I would be the guy who I got

like most athletic in the yearbook, blah, blah, blah, I would be the guy getting my lunch. And I would always go over and sit with the person or the people who got made fun. I never bullied. And I know I'm not boasting. I'm just telling my story. Like I never, I wasn't in my heart. Like I always, well, now I look at what I'm doing and it aligned with who God created me. And so you said like, you kind of find yourself back there. You know, I believe not everybody does, but I, I, I live by the words of, of the Bible and the Bible tells me tells me that God will direct my path. He'll make my path straight.

Now, I love that thought because that doesn't mean God's standing there with three doors for me to pick. And if I get it wrong, I'm screwed for life. No, if you read it and you understand the Bible, you can even walk down the wrong door and go down the wrong path. But a heart that desires to seek after God,

God will align that path. And that's, and that's what we're saying, right? We're saying like, we're not, we're not little kids with three doors. And if we get it wrong, we're screwed. We're not in our thirties and forties and fifties, you name it. And we get it wrong. We're screwed. No, we have a God who can direct our path. He can make our path straight, even when we mess it up. And, and, and so I think that we've been given certain characteristics certain passions certain hopes certain things that that that break our heart I always ask I always ask people what breaks your heart like when you hear about maybe adoption like what breaks your heart and when you answer

that question when you think of humanity and you answer the question maybe it's racism right what breaks your heart and when you answer that question it really tells a lot about who you are. And I think that we should all be doing something in the lane that helps with whatever it is that breaks our heart, because that's where God has wired our passion. And I don't think that that means it's a full-time job always,

but if you like students and you're a lawyer, but the idea of students not having safe homes breaks your heart, maybe you become a coach. So you speak some actual truth into lives that aren't always hearing truth, right? Like you can put it in any arena, but I think we always have to be wise and know that God has wired us. And out of all this world, you and I have individual fingerprints. Like there's nobody with your fingerprints in the entire universe and there's nobody with your heart. And so the answer to your question is yes, I think from a young age all the way through life, there are spokes that make up who we are. And I think it drives our passion. And I think a lot of people give up on that because it didn't become what they hoped it would soon enough. However, I think it'd be wise for us to continue to chase down what it is we're passionate about. I love that. Me too. I freaking love that.

I feel like sometimes we attach labels to ourselves so much, these worldly labels. So I always ask, if you were to describe your soul, what would you say? I think the soul is my soul would be the unseen makeup of who I am. And so you can't see my soul per se, but my character, my values, my integrity, my fears, my faith, my security, insecurity. I think that makes up my soul, the unseen person of who I am. The interesting thing about our soul is nobody in the universe, not even our spouses, truly understand the complexity of each of our souls, only we truly knew that know the health of it only we truly know the values the convictions only we truly know what our soul has placed our faith in and so that would be my answer speaking off the cuff yeah that, that was beautiful. And I also like when you said we all have our own

fingerprint. I see our souls the same way. Yeah, I completely agree. And I think I think we have to make sure that we manage our soul. We manage that unseen makeup of who we are. I think it's important that we manage it in that we we care for it. Well, I think in today's culture, our souls go so uncared for. Yes, yes, yes. That's what sense of soul is all about is getting a sense for your soul because we forget to teach our children that self-love and to get to know themselves. We're always looking for, you know, that happiness and that love outside of us when I believe God is in each one of us. So if you go within, then you're loving not only yourself, but God. Yeah, and I agree.

And I think teaching people what damages the soul is as important to teaching them how to feed the soul, right? And so I'm a firm believer that social media and this clickbait world and this everybody holding a phone at all times is brutal for the soul. When you never take an opportunity to truly know who you are, how can you care for who you are? And I'm not sure we are raising up a culture of people that have any idea who they are because they don't break away from the image or the idolatry of following everybody else's life. You know, we don't, when's the last

time we've sat in silence for a minute, two minutes, three minutes and done nothing, but just thought, just thought about who we were, how to, how to, how to become more healthy, how to trust, you know, how to trust God more, how to become more of the person that we believe God desires us to be, how to love our neighbor, you know, better. Like when is, we don't, we, we take no time to separate from the busyness of this Western culture. And we wonder why our souls are just desperate for an identity. It's because we, frankly, we give it no, we don't give our souls an opportunity to find its identity. I love that you, that you represent

someone who loves all. I definitely gathered that that. You were inspired to write this book while you were sitting in a prison visiting a friend. That's amazing. It's not like you thought of it while you were sitting in church. You thought of it while you were sitting in a pretty dark, unhappy place. Can you talk about that? Yeah, my friend was actually, had the other label of pastor. He had pastored a church for 20 years, and he made a horrible decision. Certainly a horrible decision. I think a lot of times in the church world, and the church is so bad at this, you know, screams that it's all about love, and it screams the name of Jesus. And we pride ourselves, which, you know which we should, or we find

our identity in the fact that we believe that God came to earth. I'm not saying every denomination, but largely the evangelical church believes that God came to earth and gave his life for us. And it was all an act of love. And yet when you look at the church and you would ask 10 people on the street today, is the church a beacon of love? People would say, no, absolutely not. It's a beacon of hypocrites and judgment. And that must so break the heart of God that the very thing on earth that was supposed to represent him is the very thing on earth opposite of who he is. I was sitting in this prison. Everybody in this man's life swam downstream because of what he did. I was sitting in this prison. Everybody in this man's life swam downstream because of what he did. I swam upstream in love because I don't believe, even though some people

make really stupid decisions and I can't understand them, I don't believe that makes them no longer worthy of love. And so I swam upstream and I was sitting in this room. And I usually make, I don't usually, I often ask my staff to do prison visits because I don't want to go to prison. And I was sitting in this room and I'm watching these prisoners come in one after the other.

And I felt so sad. I was like, oh my gosh. And I don't know what they did. I'm sure it was stupid, right? I get it. But I'm just watching them walk in so hopeless like empty you want to talk about soul just while looking in their eyes like and they'd go over to like these their family members where it's a grandparent or they'd hug them and and I I would just watch that

and I'd be like sick to my stomach and so my friend comes walking in and we talk for an hour and a half two hours whatever it is and when I get, I looked him in the eyes and I said, I just want you to know it's not over. And he looked back at me and goes, I don't know your book. Yeah. He goes, I don't know if I believe that. And I said, uh, and his eyes watered up and I, and he knows he can't cry in prison. I mean, you can't show that weakness, his eyes water up and he turns and I'll tell you,

I got in my car and I was driving home. And this is where this book really the heart of it came from was as I'm driving home, I'm looking at people pumping gas. I'm looking at people riding their bikes. I'm looking at people mowing lawns. And I just felt God was whispering to me, these people don't live inside the walls of a prison, but they do live life imprisoned by their past, imprisoned by the lie that their past determines their future. Their past marriage will now determine their future. Their past relationships will now, like it's almost as if we walk through life with a shadow over our heads.

And that shadow is everything that's happened in the past that condemns us to nothing great happening in the future. And as soon as you buy into that lie, as soon as you live in that place, you're forfeiting greater days. You're forfeiting those opportunities to live a life. And I believe personally that God desires for us to live a life and to live a life of abundance. And so as I'm driving home, my, my heart was just breaking. Cause I was man like get up brush your teeth go to work come home go to bed get up brush your teeth go to work and do it all depressed and do it all discouraged do it do it feeling empty now i get there's bad days yeah i have bad days there are

days where i'm like i would like to do a sit an ocean, look at the water and not talk to a soul for what feels like forevermore. However, I do try to live not allowing my past to determine my future. And so that's where this book came from was that moment driving home. And I thought, what if I could write a book that spoke to how to fight against resistance, that spoke to how to get through these hard times, how to pray when you're feeling like God's not listening. How do we live this life underneath the shadow or that cloud of our worst moments? And yeah, so that's the prison story.

That's kind of where the book came from. You talk about resistance a lot. I love that word. Shannon and I talk about that word a lot. What do you talk about in your book about resistance? Yeah. Resistance is the recipe that a part of the recipe that comes along with every single dream. Resistance is something we have to be willing to face. I always say, don't be afraid when you're facing resistance, be afraid when there's no resistance, because if you're not facing resistance, it means

you're going the same way as the opposition, right? And so resistance is part of what it is that we're going to face in this journey called life. It's funny, we look at relationships and we look at successful marriages and we like to pretend that they just arrived there on accident. But there's been tons of resistance that they had to fight through and face in order to get to where it is they are today. And it's understanding that resistance is 100% going to be a part of your journey. So don't

enter into any relationship. Don't enter into any hope for a career. Don't enter into anything outside of understanding that we're going to face resistance. That's just part of it. However, we can overcome that resistance. It's like I go running, and when I hit a certain mile, I want to quit. And if I fight through that mile, they call it like the runner's block. You can get to the other side side and you run a couple more miles or whatever. And you wanted to quit two miles ago. And you ask yourself, you're like, well,

how in the world did I even do that? It's because you're willing to fight through that moment when you wanted to quit. You were willing to get to the other side of that. And so, you know, it's just being confident in the direction you're going and not being shocked when you're facing resistance, but understanding resistance is part. And here's the thing too, like resistance is what makes the story great. Like a story out, your story is great. Cause you just shared your, the resistance, but a story outside of even this book be like the way we started this conversation conversation the resistance of getting all the no's like like we love the comeback story you know resistance resistance can also also make the story

much greater i i i was hiking there's a i talk about this in the book there's a mountain called mount washington in new england and um it's it's the highest mountain on the eastern coast. And I hiked it for the first time a few years ago. And I was going up to the top of it. I'm breathing like heavy. I'm like complaining. I'm upset. I'm frustrated, you know, climbing up this mountain. And I get to the, I finally get to the top and you can drive up to the top of this mountain. And so when I finally get to the top and you can drive up to the top of this mountain. And so when I finally get to the top, everybody's getting out of their car, they're walking, they're getting in front of the sign with their family, like hugging them. Like I hate it, you know? And, and I, I looked at them and I was so bitter. I was like, yeah,

lazy. You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? They were all like Jack more than me, but I was like, whatever, look at me, I'm sweating, you know? And I mean like you know I mean they were all like jack more than me but I was like whatever look at me I'm sweating you know and I felt like that it wasn't it wasn't it was I didn't feel proud to be up there because I drove I felt proud to be up there because I fought through the resistance I fought through all of the excuses I fought through all of the times I could have quit all the times I could have called it a called an out. And I think that that's, that's the understanding. It's, it's similar to that hike where every decision, every dream we chase, it's going to come with the resistance of climbing a mountain. But when you get to the top, you're going to have that sense of accomplishment, not because you didn't face resistance, but because you didn't let resistance talk you

out of what it was you really believed God wanted you to do or the direction you felt like God wanted you to lead. That's right. Gosh, no. You know what? There's this beautiful. So this is like hilarious. And I'm actually trying to find it, but I can't find it. I'll have to, if I ever find it.

You can find everything, Shannon. I know, but not on the fly right now. And I'm sick. So, okay. There was, I was like, I got this bubble bath one time. Okay. Like, seriously, this is the bubble bath. And it's by Philosophy.

Okay. I'm not, I'm not, we don't work for Philosophy. I would definitely recommend it. Smells amazing. Or you can get that for your wife for a present. Like you can't go wrong, but there's this one and it's called begin again. Okay. And on the front of this bubble bath is the most beautiful thing I have ever, ever in my life read. And I actually could not find it physically online so I took word for word put it on my Facebook it's on our website somewhere so maybe you need to go get some philosophy bubble bath

I was gonna say like I don't guess like you went in for a bubble bath and you found this moment in heaven I don't know what happened like I know okay so you gotta set that you I that. I can't move on unless I can understand what's going on. I feel like you had a moment. I feel like you went to heaven for a minute and got a bubble bath. Am I right? Hold on. Hold on. You want to know what else is funny, Shanna, is that when you said philosophy, I totally forgot about that brand. And I'm like, wait, what philosophy are you talking about? Philosophy is a brand. and on the front of each one of their products they they write something it could be a recipe even but this specific one and it smells this is my favorite one it even smells good i don't even know if they still make it because

i don't work at i don't ever go shopping anymore really but it says it's called begin again and they have this whole like poem under like written out on the front of the label of the bubble bath okay philosophy bubble bath okay but begin again i think she she had a spiritual moment in her bubble bath thanks to philosophy you never know well you're where you'll find god right yeah and what and i don't if you are you guys all right with them sponsoring this podcast they have great products they really do you've always loved their products oh no but the thing is is that i'm gonna tell you this much so i like you um if i have an emotional connection to something or what makes me sad or actually

triggers emotion do you know that i can never ever actually get through that reading it out loud without crying never that's how touching it is to me i mean we're talking about a bubble bath y'all i mean i'm hey you like you should probably be back there the next day for another bubble bath oh my god i love you shanna banana all right i'm gonna have to get some i wrote it down yeah for real oh and it smells so good there's one thing that I felt like we kind of disagreed on and I wanted to talk to you about it. I love disagreeing. Let's do this. Bring it. Okay, I'm going to bring it. In AA, I'm taught that expectations equal future you think it's okay to have expectations and you should have them, but they should be what's called unsurrender expectations. Can you talk about that? Yes. So unsurrendered expectations are expectations that we are unwilling to surrender to God. I think when it comes to expectations, well, for instance, in my opinion, expectations are the very essence of how we're

going to get to wherever it is we're starting to go. And so if I start a run out and I say, I have no expectations of going anywhere, well, it's going to be hard for me to get anywhere. If I start a marriage out without the expectation of loving my wife and us caring for one another, then we're not going to expectations, in my opinion, kind of create the box. They kind of create the guardrail per se to which we live by. However, it's the unsurrendered expectations that create a lot of problems in our life. The expectations when we say something like, I'm going to have, I'm going to, I expect to get this job. Well, I think that that's a pretty, pretty, a pretty tough place to live. But saying, God, I surrender my future to you, and I hope to get this job, but I'm going to surrender my expectations and understand that only I'm going to desire for your will. I'm going to desire for your strength but I'm going to surrender my expectations and understand that only I'm going

to desire for your will. I'm a desire for your strength. I'm going to surrender my expectations, meaning you can call an audible at any time. Here's where I'm heading, but I'm going to surrender my expectations to you. I think for me that that's, that's a healthy level of expectation when I'm not in control of my expectations. Now, when you said AA said that, explain what they meant by that. Just that if you have an expectation and it's not met, then you're going to be disappointed in yourself. So just not setting expectations at all. So for example, like if I have an expectation that everyone's going to come over on Christmas and that we're all going to sit down and the table's going to be pretty and everyone's going to come over on Christmas and that we're all going to, you know, sit down and the table's going to be pretty and everyone's going to just bow their heads. And then we're going to have this beautiful dinner. And then that's my expectation. Well, what if, you

know, at the beginning, my six-year-old decides to take a handful of mashed potatoes and throw it at my son and the whole dinner gets ruined and my dad and my mom start fighting. Well, then I'm going to be pissed because I had this expectation that everything was going to go this certain way. So just not having an expectation, just being present in the moment, letting it be. And then I won't feel that disappointment. Yeah, I think that's one way of doing it. I will say that it kind of always confused me. So I had to compartmentalize expectation versus a goal. Because having a goal is one thing and having an expectation is another. Yeah. Do you think it's healthy to

have expectations? So like in a relationship with a spouse, do you have an expectation that they would be faithful? Yes, I do. Okay. Now you can't control that though, right? No. So my theory is expectations are okay. It's when we don't surrender them that we become owned by them. So I expect my wife to be faithful. However, I surrender that expectation to God. And I say like at the end of the day, God, that's my, I expect that from her. However, no matter what I face, I'm not going to live in that disappointment because I've surrendered that expectation to you. And so I think it's, I think we're saying the same. I sincerely do think we're saying the same exact thing. I think it's just a little bit of wording. One of my biggest things I do with marriage

counseling when I do it is literally a talk on expectations. And I'm like, okay, get together. Let's talk about what expectations are because everybody says money is what causes divorce or this. I'll tell you the number one reason for divorce is unmet expectations. You get married and you literally have no idea what the other person expects of you. And that's what creates tension. When I got married, I had all these expect expectations for Jennifer and I never talked about what I expected in my expectations came from what my mom did for my dad. Right. I just was, I was born, I was, I grew up in culture and I had this idea of what I expected my wife would be. And I just thought that's just what it

looked like. And then I married Jennifer and she's like, I ain't your mama. Right. And so it's like, okay, fair enough. Right now we've got to reestablish our expectations. What you guys are talking about. I'm thinking the whole time about impermanence because I do believe that if you have expectations on someone you are actually putting a limit a limit on something right and so and how can you because we should all be growing so if you have an expectation of somebody or something then you're expecting it not to change. You talk about that in your book, that change is inevitable, correct? Absolutely. Yeah, I think change is, I say change is always constant.

Change is the one thing that remains constant. I think we have to always be willing to change. And I think we fear change. I know we fear change. We fear anything that's uncomfortable. I'm hoping that this year helped me deal with this pandemic, that change is okay and being uncomfortable is okay. Yeah, absolutely. You didn't expect that bubble bath to rock your world like it did?

No, absolutely. And it changed me. It changed me. It made me smell better. It brought tears to my eyes and warmed my heart. And I'm sharing it with you years later. I don't even know if it's still, they make it. I couldn't find it.

But you know, honestly, if you don't have attachments to things, which I see as the same thing as expectations. What does the word expectation mean to you? So it's almost like put you in a box in a way it feels. Yeah, well, I feel like it's my judgment. I feel like if you're saying it for yourself, like I have expectations of myself to do this. And then I think it might be a little bit different, but if you're saying,

I expect this of you, who am I? I'm not God. Like I wish there were expectations that we could have in our culture that were met. Like we should be able to expect there to be love. We should expect there to be great. We should be able to expect that our neighbor is. We should expect there to be great. We should, we should be able to expect that our neighbor is not going to judge us based on our religion or our race or, or our background. Like I fully agree with you. I think that unfair expectations or those unrealistic expectations. What if expectations get out of line when I'm trying to make you into the person I want

you to be? Yeah. Right. Instead of acceptance, acceptance, not expectations. You know what, what does God expect from us? I think there's, there's certain things that God definitely, you know, we could say the greatest commandment of all is to love God. Right. And that's the, and then he says, the second is equal, love your neighbor as yourself. Like, so if we just go off the golden rule there, right? And just say, hey, listen, love God and love others. It really can boil down to really that sentence that God expects us to love God and love others.

How do you love God and love others if you haven't connected with that love inside too? And I think that that's the key for myself. When I connected with my soul, I connected directly with God because I was like, oh my gosh, I'm not just a body. I am this divine soul created by this loving energy. And I have a purpose in this life. This life is absolutely purposeful, but I just felt that direct connection with God. And it wasn't that someone told me, you know, at church to believe this, you know, it wasn't someone said, you know, it was something that I had to experience with it

and feel it for myself. Yeah. I can't, couldn't agree more. I think, I think a lot of people go to church hoping to leave changed by what somebody says, but God has to do the work, in my opinion. You know, God has to do the work. We have to be willing that God does the work in us, something that we can't explain, something internal happens. Our soul is met with the presence of God. And I think for me, we start seeing our value through the eyes of God. And that's why we start seeing ourselves different than the eyes of God. And, and that's why we start seeing ourselves different than we once did. Right. So, so when you, you find your purpose, because you recognize the God of the universe created you with a purpose. And so loving God, really, in my opinion, loving God deeply will often and always, I should say, result in loving yourself deeply. Because when truly love God, you understand his love for you.

And how in the world could you not love a you when the God of the universe so desperately does? There's kind of a marriage there between loving God and loving yourself. Yeah. And not loving who someone else has told you God is, but loving who God says he is, right? So when you understand the character of God, well, then you can love God differently than we're often taught in church, because we're often feared into loving God, right? So the typical message to get someone to love God, and I'm using the quote hands, the typical message is, right, you're going to go to hell and burn for eternity so you need to love god right and it's like so we fear people into love that's been the common that's been the common

theme is fear people into love and i'm not sure fear and love right love cast out all fear matter of fact the bible says and so i don't think fear and love really work together and so how in the world has the church for centuries tried to fear people through burning in hell forever to love god fully and truly for me that's not the approach i think the heart of god would have i think the heart of god is know my character know my love for you know my plans for you know my purpose for you know that i will forgive you, know my purpose for you, know that I will forgive you, know that I care for you, know that I have a purpose for you, know that even if you've gone so far off course that there's nothing, you've never gone too far off course for God to pull you back to where he wants you to be, or you've never gone too far. And so for my heart, like for

me, it's when you understand that character of God. Like we often take God for a lot of people, men and women. And what we do is we give God the personality traits of our father on earth because God typically is seen as a he culturally seen. And so we typically give God the attributes of an abusive guy or a distant father. And I think a lot of times we're told to now love that God. And it's like we see God so different, I believe, than who God is that we don't really love God. We're just kind of feared into loving him just enough so we don't get the punishment we're told we're going to get. And so I think the goal is like, I think you're saying that too is is like loving God in a way that's pure loving God in a way that allows you to love yourself it's just I'm just spitballing I wish we could clone you and stick you in like every state and church I mean I think it's only fair

to tell you that I mean our listeners know that I've gone through almost like this morning of my religion. I have my own relationship with God. It can't be defined by a church or, and I feel closer to God and my beliefs and even to Jesus. What I experience and know to be true in my heart. Yeah, it's been hard and it's been, it's emotional. Yeah. I think the church unfortunately

is made up of a lot of imperfect people like me. And unfortunately, I think over time, the message of Jesus was turned into a message of judgment, a good person's club, a message of do more, act different. When I truly, when you really look at the message of, let's just really look at the message of God through my lens. Now I know all the listeners don't believe the same thing I believe, but through my belief, my belief is that God loved us so much that he came to earth. That's my belief. And when he came to earth, it was a demonstration of love. And while he was on earth, he went after the least of these, the broken, the addicts, the tax collectors, people who were seen as evil, people who are laughed at. He didn't go chill with the,

with the people who thought they had it all together. Matter of fact, he even, yeah, he even, yeah, he went, he said, he said, I've come for the, I've come for the least of these. I've come for those who, who, who are hurting, right? And so that's my belief system is that God came to earth to show us his love and invited us into a relationship captured by that love, captured by that forgiveness, captured by that hope. And so I don't know if we need to call it a religion, denominations. I don't care a we need to call it a rule I don't I mean religion denominations I don't care a rip about all that at the end of the day for me it's just sharing I believe the truth that God

came to earth to show us his forgiveness to show us his love and to give us an opportunity at a life full of grace and hope and truth and an opportunity to to now love others through the same love that we've received like when you experience that type of love, you want to give it away. And so I would say that that's not typically the message that is heard, unfortunately. When are you going to build a church over here in my neighborhood?

I may be a pastor of it. Hey, I mean, my goodness, bring a bubble bath in there and we'll be unbelievable. Yeah, for real, my goodness, bring a bubble bath in there and we'll be unbelievable. Yeah. For real, Shanna. We'll be drinking from philosophy bottles. Hey. You're great. Hey, guess what?

I'll just make it all up. I'll just make it all up right on the moment. Oh, it's great. You know, at least it's coming from you and not a philosophy bottle. However, guess what? I did find it. Yes. I found it.

I actually looked up on my Facebook. I wrote it out. And this was in like 2012. But it says, well, first of all, I'll just say, can I actually read this without crying? You reached the top of the mountain only to find yourself at the bottom of a new one. Begin again. You dotted every I and forgot to cross your T's. Begin again. You were at the wrong place at the wrong time and your life changed forever. Begin again. You loved hard and lost big. Begin again. You won the race. See see i can never do it you won the race but they

gave first to someone else speaking again you followed the north star and ended up at the south pole begin again wow isn't that good it's amazing i'll put that in my next book and say i wrote it i could never find who wrote it i can never find like it like quoted like i think i've actually wrote it out on google trying to find it never could i love it yeah it's a good one yeah began again your books the name of your book it's not over it's not over i shouldn't need to begin again started with that quote if there's breath in your lungs god still has a purpose for you right isn't that what you say yeah that's what i say there's breath in your lungs god has a purpose for your life you know we're never we're never too far gone you know life's never too hopeless well and guess what

i'm gonna take that up a level i didn't have breath in my lungs and i actually died from an asthma attack and i my life still had purpose and then i came back and had to begin again big time i had to begin again. I think if the writer of that begin again thing we just read could write it, they would actually add that in there. If you don't have breath in your lungs, begin again.

Begin again. So Josh, at the end of every episode, we do what is called break that shit down. And now it's time for break that shit down. And now it's time for break that shit down. I would say going back to what we were talking about, I would kind of echo it again on God's not through that. Uh, it's not over, even though I wrote the book, I would, I would say that God's not through that that God has a plan, that you may be living in the most desperate and darkest moment. You may be living in a moment where you feel like

you've tried to do all the right things, and yet you've landed in all the wrong places. Relationships don't look like you wish they would look. Life doesn't look like you wished it would look. Parenting doesn't feel like you wished it would feel. That addiction is still screaming and it feels like you can't defeat it. And when you look in the mirror, you're just a skeleton of who it was you wished you were. I really believe with everything in me that tomorrow can look different. Today can look different. That God does adore you. God does love you. God has created you on purpose. You're not a mistake. Your fingerprints are special. And that God wants to give you hope and breathe it into your lungs. And even if your lungs are not alive, like some lungs go out once in a while, but God wants to breathe it into your lungs

and give you a better tomorrow. And I think that first step is trusting God to do that and getting in his presence and creating space to let him love you. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, Josh. Yeah. Where can our listeners find you? Tell them the name of your podcast. Give yourself a big shout out. You can find me. My name's Joshua Gagnon. So if you go on Instagram, that's where I kind of hang out most of the time. I've kind of forsaken any other platform. The Outspoken Podcast. You can hang out with me on the Outspoken Podcast, Joshua Gagnon Leadership Podcast. Yeah. My pastor church called Next Level Church. So nextlevel.church. You can watch online there whenever you want and listen to me talk for a little bit. Talk about an amazing dream. You can watch online there whenever you want and listen to me talk for a little bit. Talk about an amazing dream. You started out with what, 12 people in your living room,

and now you've got 10 different churches and 10 different locations. A lot of people need to experience the love of God in a way that brings life and not death. Agree. Thank you so much. Yeah, you've been so fun and just you're a very special person. Thank you for sharing your soul with us today. Thank you so much. I was just going to say really fast that What Breaks Your Heart is very, very powerful. I feel like maybe you have another book coming out that's going to be called What Breaks

Your Heart because I loved that. Yeah. Powerful. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, Josh. Yeah. Where can our listeners find you? Tell them the name of your podcast. Give yourself a big shout out. They can find me. My name's Joshua Gagnon. So if you go on Instagram, that's where I kind of hang out most of the time. I've kind of forsaken any other platform. The Outspoken Podcast. You can hang out with me on the Outspoken Podcast, Joshua Gagnon Leadership Podcast. Yeah. My pastor church called Next Level Church. So nextlevel.church. You can watch online there whenever you want and listen to me talk for a little bit. Talk about an amazing dream. You started out with what, 12 people in your living room, and now you've got 10 different churches in 10 different locations. A lot of people need to experience the love of God in a way that brings life and not death. Agree. Thank you so much. Yeah, you've been so fun and just you're a very special person.

Thank you for sharing your soul with us today. Thank you so much.