Sense of Soul - It’s Not You, It’s Your Trauma

Episode Date: June 7, 2021

Today we welcomed Joe Ryan, he has been on a lifelong journey of overcoming trauma, shame, and demons that plagued him from his childhood. He has turned his pain into purpose and his mission outward, helping others to conquer their traumatic pasts. Through his podcast ‘It’s Not You; It’s Your Trauma’ and one on one coaching.  Join us for a raw conversation with Joe! Make sure to check out Joe’s podcast and website. It’s Not You, It’s Your Trauma Podcast Thank you Ellyn Shamalov for being our guest host today!  Check out our website www.mysenseofsoul.com    

Welcome to the Sense of Soul podcast. We are your hosts, Shanna and Mandy. Grab your coffee, open your mind, heart and soul. It's time to awaken. Today, Mandy wasn't able to be with us. And so our friend, Ellen Shamala from Blue Blood Wisdom podcast, a gifted healer and friend and coach is joining me today to welcome our guest, Joe Ryan, who has been on a lifelong journey of overcoming trauma, shame, and the demons that plagued his childhood. He has turned his mission outward, helping others to conquer their traumatic past. Through his podcast, It's Not You, It's Your Trauma, and one-on-one coaching, Joe is paving the way for people to heal. He's bearing his soul publicly to extend his hand

to people who might feel stuck or frozen in their healing journeys. Thank you so much, Joe, for being with us. Oh, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. So Joe, can you please share with our listeners how you got to where you are today? Well, I grew up with just the false self. You adapt to be loved. And when you would do things that weren't loved, you kind of cut them off. You buried them, you push them down. And the things that did give you affection, attention, love, you kind of gravitated more towards that. And my entire life was this shift from burying things that weren't okay to embracing the things that were. So I'm not complete. I lived just this false reality that, you know, I could have passed

a lie detector test. I would have sworn that was me. And it got to a point where year after year, living that false self wasn't giving back what it used to. And you start questioning, who am I? Is this really me? Is this the life I want to live? Are these the things that I want to be chasing? Why am I chasing them? What do I get that get out of them? And, you know, I was good up until a point, I felt like I, you know, resolved where I really didn't, you know, and I just accepted that this is who I was, this is the life I was going to live, I kind of fulfilled that picture that was painted for me that I adopted in my head, you know, the house, the picket fence, you know, the job, the business, the kids, the wife, the whole thing. And then it slowly started to fall apart. And I couldn't figure out who I was without all of those things. That was my whole life's goal was to get to that picture that was painted. the fan and everything started to crumble.

And I was in this, I call it a shame spiral. I didn't know who I was. I had no more identity. I had to live up to a certain standard within myself. And that's what I realized later on, that it was within myself that I adopted the standards of the people around me. And I couldn't live up to it anymore. You know, I was midlife, I lost everything. And, you know, I walked out of the house with a laptop and a pillow and had to start over. And it was like, well, where do I go from here? And how do I get those, you know, those needs met now, because I didn't know how to meet them myself. I didn't know how to validate myself. I didn't know how to feel good about myself. I just was living in self-hate and without all of the decorations around me of the house, the family, the job, the money, you know, I felt worthless. And that's why I had accumulated all of this over the years was to not feel myself hate, my shame, my worthlessness. And then it was this big, like ripping off of a bandaid and going, ouch, I just never felt good inside. And I've been running from it since pretty much day one. And that was the start of the journey.

I'm curious to know what happened from there. Did you, did your marriage fall apart or did you just lose your job? Like, was there like a massive thing that might've just caused that to, to make you realize? Life was fine. The business was doing good. I was making money. I thought the marriage was going good, but you know, it wasn't on our end. Like I didn't realize it. So I'd lost a multimillion dollar business. I lost my house, my life savings, my marriage, my kids half the time. And I felt like I was left with nothing. And then I met this woman after I moved out and we were going to move in together. She got hit by a car, didn't know who I was, spent months in the hospital with her and trying to get her back.

And then she had traumatic brain injury and everything from her life before the accident was a harsh reminder of, you know, how much work she had to do. So that ended that relationship and all that was in 18 months. And I the way I reacted was the way I used to react. I threw away 17 years of sobriety and just went out hardcore. Like I had did years ago and, you know, was starting out in one borough, waking up in another and not knowing where I was. And I had to reel it in because I have my kids half the time. So when I had them, I was a model citizen. When I didn't have them, I was back to blackout drinking and just a really hard life that I did not want to live anymore.

But I have one coping mechanism and that's addiction. So when all of it fell apart, I just went back to what speaks to me so well. So then what was it that pulled you out of it? But was there, you know, like, did you sign up for like a yoga class or something? Well, I, you know, I couldn't really function. I was like, spending, you know, 14 hours a day in bed and then drinking the rest and partying. And when I kind of bottomed out with that, you know, I was sick, I had mercury poisoning. I couldn't walk downstairs. My income had kind of slowly dried up. I had to move into a friend's house in his room. I mean, I just really went from top of the heap to the bottom. And the thing that changed it all

was I was kind of sitting there for a while. And when I mean a while, probably almost two years, I just couldn't function. And I really, truly did not think there was a way out. And, you know, so I'm like dating, dating, that'll get me out of this, you know, something to feed my ego, you know, make me feel good for an hour in that relationship. I couldn't give her what she needed. I was very broken at that point, but she had kept pushing and kind of pushed me into a corner. And it was, I had no place to run. I was in the middle of the mountains on a lake and there was like, you know, no paved roads for miles, like in the middle of nowhere, it's just the two of us. So I had one, two choices.

I could run on foot back to New York city or what ended up happening was, you know, she kept speaking and I started to go back to places of abuse that I wasn't previously aware of. And I had this trauma recall that I sat in for four hours. And the picture became extremely clear at that point that I wasn't broken. I wasn't defective. I had things that had happened that I wasn't aware of that unconsciously I had been running from mood altering and chasing other things just not to feel the excruciating pain of things that I did not remember. And I ended up walking around like a shell for a while.

I did not know what I wanted to do with this information. I said it many times, if it wasn't for my kids, I probably wouldn't be sitting here talking because it was just too much to deal with. And I went through three therapists that I fired almost immediately because every time I tried to tell the experience, they obviously hadn't done the work. They hadn't gone to those places. So every time I tried to go there, they pulled me out of my pain and they took me in another direction because they couldn't handle it. And then I walked into this woman's office. I started talking and I'm waiting for her to take me out of it. And she just sat there the entire time and rode this wave with me. And I went through the entire story. And I looked at her when I was finished speaking. And I was like, All right, now what? And she was like, Well, I'm taking you on personally. And she, she was this oasis of space that I needed to just be able to tell somebody the worst shit possible that I wasn't even ready to tell myself. And the mirror I got back from her was invaluable.

And I will never minimize that experience. I'm about to cry. I'm a big crybaby. So I really am. I am fighting that conditioned ideal human being that we all try to be and then feeling so lost. But in that space, in that emptiness is actually a good place. And I know it doesn't feel good at the time oh it feels like shit it's horrible but I can't imagine had I never found that emptiness that I would have never heard kind of like the cry of my soul or like had been that stripped from the conditions and from everything that the only thing that I was able to connect with the only thing that was left in me

was my soul did you feel that you had zero layers of protection left zero raw just raw naked sensitive it is kind of a scary place because I believe in that space, a person can either fill that space with drugs and alcohol and something else, or they can fill that space with love, which we're not taught to fill ourselves with. We're taught to seek it outside of us, but not actually fill it in into our being. Hearing your story, I think about so many people that I know that have gone through something so similar. And to be able to, like, you were so lucky that someone finally listened to you and you kept going back. I mean, the fourth therapist, a lot of people would have just thrown in a can. There was no place for me to go. And, you know, I've always been good at looking at myself, at least I like to think, you know, except for the blind spots until they show up, know, you're strong, you're capable, you're competent, you can handle this, you can take this on, you can work through the feelings. Because I mean,

I've hit bottoms. You know, I hope I've hit the last one. But you know, the weakness that you feel and the exposed raw is the best word. You're just a complete open wound and defenseless. And my tendency is to hide. I don't want, you know, you're only allowed happy, smiley feelings and emotions. Nobody's allowed to see you sad or whatever. I didn't go into hiding. And it was interesting because a couple of months after, you know, working with this woman, they had this public talk that they were doing she asked me to do it and I was like there's no fucking way I am telling this story it's too soon it was way too soon and the crazy part was I'm in this parking

lot on Long Island sitting there in the back of this place. And I watched this group of bikers pull up on their bikes and I'm freaking out in my car. I am like, I'm not going in. I'm not doing this. There's no way. And then these bikers pull up and I go, God, I hope they don't go into where I'm going. And they walked in and it was bikers against childhood abuse. And it was the hardest thing I think I've ever had to do do but it was the most healing and the most growth because seeing the faces of the people mirroring back I could tell who had what abuse based on what I was talking about on their reactions and soon as I finished the first person that came over to me was this big brawny biker and he just looks at me he goes can i give you a hug

held me so tight and he goes man i wish i knew you when you were going through all of that and that was such i still remember that was such a healing moment that you know especially guys you got a man up and neanderthal and all that shit that just leads you into more shame this guy just went completely vulnerable on me. And this is a guy I would have been terrified of, you know, being so sensitive and seeing this, you know, tough macho guy. And he went more sensitive than I did.

I was like, all right, cool. So this is where the healing is. We just get honest and we put all that crap aside and we be real. I don't know how spiritual you are, but it seems to me like you had that scenario bring you into that idea of, well, love will help you. You know, this guy who showed you this love, who you never thought would come and give you that type of reaction. To me, it's all about everything happens for a reason. And it happens at the perfect time. And when you take opportunities to do things like you did, you were, you know, you said, I'm not ready,

but you went in and you did it. And you you let yourself be seen and heard by so many other people at that time, it was like, you push yourself out of that fear. And it was because of that moment that you allowed yourself to get out of that space, and to be real and raw for other people to see that the universe said he's on his path. is different than others because you show love and compassion because I feel like that's really what you learned is going to help you bring more of the vulnerability out of others who may feel like they're stuck in their shell. Definitely. I think about him often when I'm coaching. I definitely do. It's allowing people to have that space to express themselves. So I grew up in a place where it'd be like, you know, I feel sad, shut up. What do you feel sad about? You know, not being able to express yourselves. And then I go

into a room and do it. And then people were like loving you for it and, and thanking you. And I was like, wait, this is every rule that I've ever grown up. Nothing. I shared an episode, you and somebody else, it was like 46 minutes and you told your story and I loved that episode by the way your vulnerability your honesty and your rawness it made me think of my son because my son was definitely living just like that all you know just trying to be that perfect human everything that mom and dad and everybody wanted you to be and then he got really lost when it just wasn't aligning with a soul. And in that space, he, he did not feel any love and acceptance of the world.

And one day we went to my nephew's birthday party. He was turning four and like loves my son. And he just kept running up to him and he was introducing his friends to him. And he's like, this is my, my friend Drew. And Drew's like, I'm your cousin. And he goes, you are? And he just hugged him. He goes, I love you. He got in my car that day, cried. So that was the first time I felt love like that in so long, mom.

He's like, he don't care if I have a job or what I did with my life. He just loved me. And he made me feel it. My God, what unconditional love. Loving with no conditions, just like that man did for you. How it can change someone's entire trajectory. It's amazing. Love is the most powerful energy ever. It is.

And it's hard. That self-love is hard because we, you know, so I just live in complete self hate and, you know, the four-year-old who lives in vulnerability and they don't know it because it's just, they're not protecting it because they haven't had a reason to. He was just being him and look at the gift that he gave. I mean, it was so beautiful. I just think that my son grew up thinking, I love you as long as you're getting A's. I love you as long as you're getting that home run. I love you as long as you're following the rules. And of course I still loved him, right? But I definitely was putting more focus on celebrating his triumphs and, you

know, putting his picture up on Facebook when you did good. And then when he didn't have any more of those, there was no more pictures, right? I see it a lot. We all do it. Put your kids' picture every time they, you know, lose a tooth and you're celebrating it. But then when they're in trouble, or not lined with the world, they're no longer getting, you know, rewarded, and they feel it. And that's how unconditional love is just, I mean, just destroyed. It is of you, you know, the image is more important than reality, shame will always exist. And, you know, I mean, we're all guilty of it. I did as a single parent, I would put stuff on Facebook of my kids, just because when they would do

something, I'd look around and go, Hey, did you see that? And I'm like, wait, I'm alone. I'm a single parent. So for me, it would put it up and it would be like other people could celebrate it. But we don't realize it even as hard as we try not to shame or condition our kids in a certain way, I always think like I coach sports and my kid was playing soccer and everybody was like, Oh no, no. You know, let Sally have a turn, let Johnny have a turn. And then you hit a certain age and it's like, go kill Johnny. Like, so we, you score that goal no matter what. So we go from playing nice and then we teach them you know to start protecting

themselves at some point because it's a it's a very dangerous world and it's a scary world and that's why family systems are so powerful because you live in this closed off system and the safety is in us staying together and having this belief system when you try to break out of a family system and leave and do your own thing, it's so powerfully uncomfortable because you're going against that whole system, but you've internalized that system. So for your son, he has a certain way of looking at things. And when they don't speak to him anymore, we don't feel like we have any choices. This is what we have. Like I've built an identity that I can't seem to get out of without pain. And I don't want to live that

identity anymore because the person that I want to be in the life I want to live based on society's standards is completely shameful. I am an absolute loser in the business world for the way I want to live. It's true. Like the way society has painted the picture for us of what we should be doing and what we would want. You know what? The other day, I just got myself a new car and I got one that I never thought I would ever get. It was a Kia.

And I'm always like, I want the top notch. I want the best cars, blah, blah, blah. Here I am looking at a freaking Kia. And I'm thinking, wow, what society did to us. Like they entrapped us in wanting to get this nice house and this crazy expensive car, $600 for a car, a lease. Like that's insane. A month. I'm thinking people really have to work their ass off to pay this. This is how society wants to keep us enslaved to this consumerism, just constantly working so hard just to make ends meet and just to pay off

this nice, beautiful thing. So that if someone sees we have this nice, beautiful thing, and we work so hard for it, we'll be accepted and we'll be seen. And, and maybe like someone will acknowledge something that we do, but you know, what's amazing is that like, we are the leaders now we're setting the stage and our kids are watching us lead. And they're going to want to take that because they admire what we do and they're coming in strong because these souls that are really embodying these human vessels right now, we are really paving the way for, number one,, from the toxic emotions that we've been harboring for all these years through the ancestral lineage in our DNA, through the trauma that we've really molded our DNA to kind of create this reality of being trapped.

As we are learning and implementing this new way and this leadership, our children are watching us. I know, Shannana, for your kids, they do Reiki as they see you continue to do. And as they see that you're becoming something, you're helping people be better people. It's the same thing with you, Joe. Your children will see the same thing, even as a single parent. Yeah, I think the most powerful thing we can do for our children is heal ourselves. Exactly.

And regardless of what people say about what we do, whether it's pitiful to them or not, as long as they see you as the parent, you are their hero because you are going against all odds, regardless of what people are saying and doing. Yeah, true. Right. To be that different person, to stand out and to actually make a huge difference in your life their life in other people's lives well yeah and it's you know well my kids are teenagers so they don't believe anything i say the job as a parent is to model

right so i'm i'm right now i'm in self-hate and shame because financially I was at one point and now I'm at another. And they look at their friends that have more. And as a man, I didn't feel like I provided enough financially. I let them see how that affected me more than I should have. And I always try to put on a better front for them. But looking at how the life had turned around for me, where we went from having money to not having it and having to struggle, there's definitely lessons in there. The goal would be that if I become okay

with the choices that I made, because I would rather help people than punch numbers. I would rather help people than write code. And there's more money in writing code than there is in helping people. But I'm trying to model that I may not look like everything that's around you, but I feel good about how I'm living. You're more authentic. That's my argument. Those other people that look like they're,

you know, having it together, those are the most fucked up people, Joe. And, you know, I have come to this place where through my ancestry, I'd watch that women in my family tried to put that front up, right? To show that we're fine, right? I don't do that anymore. If I'm stressed, I let my child know whether they're two or if they're 23, because that's real. And what's not real is me pretending that I can just hold this house together with fucking smiles and singing, you know, songs all day long, which I do, but they're like rap songs or whatever. Cause you know what your kids may think they're pissed off

because they, these people have more. And I see my dad struggle. That's a fucking good thing because I'm telling you when they get older, they won't think, oh my God, is something wrong with me? My mom could do this, but I can't do this. They'll see that. Yeah. Everyone struggles. My dad struggled and he was, he's a great guy. The beauty about it is you've actually gone through rock bottom to the point where you've had the experience it's not just you saying well I wasn't happy and I switched things around you you had everything and you hated it because it wasn't authentic there was something missing you still felt that something was missing so just wanted to to mention that like if your kids are against it all yeah let them be against it it's the part of it eventually yeah it's

dealing with your own shame right becoming comfortable with who you are and where you're at and yeah you know and not comparing and it's really difficult women have the female stigma men have the male stigmas and you know if we could somehow meet in the middle and just try to understand that, you know, it's all bullshit in the end. You know, me not making $250,000 a year doesn't make me a worthless piece of shit. Although in my mind, and the way I grew up and the way I looked at things around me, I have to get rid of that image. So there's a starting point of self and being okay with nothing. I've stripped myself down to zero and I get to add things now that have value internally. I'm not going to buy the $7,000 watch so I can walk around and look like I have something.

I'm not even going to wear a watch because I don't even like watches. The only reason I was wearing watches is because I thought women liked them. It would make me more attractive. So it was a whole stupid thing that I was doing. Just try to get validation. Right. And you know that the kids now are wearing watches just for that shit because none of them have been taught until time.

So I got the phone. Here's my watch. Yeah. It's hard to become okay. Especially, you know, with the work that we're doing, we're going against everything that society tells us to be, you know, it was always tried to fit in where I really should have just tried to belong to self. And there's not many people doing this kind of work. So for a guy that always felt disconnected, isolated, you know, not fitting in land, the misfit toys, all that shit, it kind of work. So for a guy that always felt disconnected, isolated, you know, not fitting in, land of misfit toys, all that shit, it kind of makes it worse in some respect. But what had

helped was after that speaking engagement I had, you know, it was about nine months later, I started recording my thoughts. And then eventually, you know, I put them out there and I've never felt more connected when I went into my absolute vulnerability and pain and shared it and had people, you know, come back at me with, oh my God, I felt the same thing. And, you know, all of these decades, I just thought it was my own internal crazy that nobody would get. And the way that people relate in the conversations I have with people now, it's so healing having that mirror. I know because when people are honest with themselves, they all experience stuff like this on some level who doesn't have stress in their life. I think that most pain is just subdom. We shouldn't live with any of that forever. We shouldn't see it as a permanent diagnosis. Anxiety, I believe is a symptom and it's fear and not good enough, not competent

enough, not being able to take care of yourself. The way I grew up, it was the family system. So I took care of these three things. That person took care of those six. This person took care of these four. So I was incomplete. Like I was not prepared to be out in the world. And when my whole world had come in crumbling down and I started to realize the truth of me, where I'm not as smart as I thought I was, I'm not as competent as I thought I was. I'm not as fun as they, all those things that you pretended you were, and then you have to face them. So the anxiety went off the charts because I felt like I couldn't survive alone in this world. But for me to heal, that's the way I had to do it. So the symptom of anxiety, that fear came from a place that I grew up and I experienced when my nervous system was on high alert 24-7, 365, and it's learning to manage those situations and walk into that fear

and sit with that fear. Not in self-pity, but don't attach to it with your thoughts, but just let that pain and fear and all that anxiety take you over so that you can learn that you're stronger than it and you don't have to run from it. I will never say that I am recovered from any of this because I never will be. I am affected the rest of my life. It's the degree that I let it affect my life moving forward. It's that degree. So every day that goes by, it affects me less and less. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm not agoraphobic. I'm leaving the house. You know, I'm learning how to socialize again as me without booze, without trauma, without defenses. And that's, that's fucking scary. And that's why,

and that's why you probably filled yourself with that because raw is so uncomfortable. When you're in that space of emptiness, you gotta be feel where i think we're just wired we gotta fill that with something it's gotta be love from somebody else there's gotta be drugs or alcohol or antidepressants or whatever it is but we have to feel something we can't just feel ourselves because in that space a lot of times you're gonna have to reflect on things that are not so pretty no you people don't want to. I don't want to face the truth of me. I'm humiliated by the things that I've done. Our brains are wired that way, you know, Joe? I mean, so what you did,

and I think that what we all need to do is know that we can create these brighter paths in our brains. The other one doesn't go away, right? Because that is part of you, but you create a new brighter one. It gets quieter. It doesn't go away.

You learn better tools, better skills for coping. When I start to get into an anxious moment or I start to fall into self-hate or a shame spiral, I don't let it go to the point where I can't get off the couch for three days anymore. I start to recognize and be like, okay, there's actually no threat where I'm sitting right now. Ellen knows, I called her not too long ago. I had a moment where I remembered that person, a person who absolutely would defend the fact that, no, I don't love myself. I am here to love my children and to love everyone else.

No, it is selfish to love yourself. I mean, I used to defend that. Oh God, I remember that used to defend that oh god I remember see that was yeah I was crying when I when I remembered her because I thought how sad I feel so sad for her but then I realized wait that's me I like totally broke that shit I accept love now I really do well so I guess for me here, Joe. I don't know if you've gone there. I wanted to know why, why was I like this? So yeah, my parents are, you know, didn't instill self-love in me, but it went beyond that. Like generation after generation after generation, this is something in my, you know, genetics, this is in my genetic makeup in my DNA to not love

myself. What? I feel like the only hope for the world is to change this. And so that's what we're doing. That's why you have to talk about it. You have to stop self-hating and then start self-loving. It's never taught. You look at every TV show, every freaking location on Instagram, whatever. Religion. All beautiful, right. All beautiful people with all of this acquired wealth and material and looking good and hair and muscles and abs and all that shit. That is where we put all of our value. It is not the human wearing that or portraying that because they are irrelevant. We become a fucking billboard for other corporations to sell their products because if you're not wearing Prada,

if you're not driving the Lexus, you ain't shit. And we are going to shame you and make you work and work and work just to acquire those things so that you think you're going to get there. I had very successful business. I came home one Christmas with more cash than I've ever seen in my life. And I dumped it out on the floor with my wife at the time. And I looked at it and I was so proud for about 30 seconds. And the first thing that popped into my head after that 30 seconds of pride was, oh shit, we're going to have to do more than this next year or else I'm a failure. And I was like, holy shit. And that sticks with me to the point where I told the close people in my life that I have to learn how to be happy, poor, and then add

money, worth, and value in as I see it being fit for me, not how everybody else is looking at me. And that's fucking hard. Yeah. Cause I, cause I want the Land Rover. I want the Lexus. I want the Tesla. I want the big house. I want the apartment that overlooks central park. But I know if I acquired that, what I would have to give up and sell my soul. And when I got there, it was not going to give me the feeling I thought it was going to give me. And then I am empty and we're starting over. With your coaching that you do with your clients, you mentioned that self-love is important, right?

And that's like, and we're talking about unconditional love. We're talking about love. And in this case, we're talking about also giving ourselves unconditional love. We don't need all these things to fill the void. But how do you get there with your clients? What type of client comes to you? Is it the same person that says like, oh, shit, I have everything, but I don't like it? Or is it someone who's like really rock bottom?

How do you get them? And how do you get them out of their heart to actually love themselves? Well, I get a full spectrum, complete denial where it's just like something just doesn't feel right. I don't know. And it's not purpose denial. They haven't uncovered it. Then I have people that have hit bottom that know that they've been abused and they know it's their trauma and they don't know how to work through it. So it's uncovering one layer at a time. So if somebody comes in that has a heavy alcohol addiction, that's the top layer. We got to address that first. If somebody comes to me,

who's been in sobriety for six years, I don't have to go through those top layers. They've already done some work. The way of self-love, they're actually doing the self-love. They don't know it. I'm just telling them that they're doing it. The fact that they fucking show up and tell somebody that they don't really know their worst shit. You just being there is an act of self-love. But I feel like shit all day and I'm writing this stuff out and I'm sitting with this feelings and I'm like, yeah, it's going to take a couple of years. Are you feeling like horrible? And my job is to acknowledge what had happened, validate it, mirror it, let you know how strong you are and how you are loving yourself until you believe it. Like they don't believe me. I'm like that right there is self

love. And they're like, no, it's not. And eventually, you know, three months, 18 months, however long it is, they start to realize that what they're doing is self-care and self-love. It just goes against society and family. It's like, get out of your own way. You've already got this. And, you know, I think that for me, the best thing I can do when I find that they're not able to see that is to really have them become that witness in listening to these negative thought patterns that, you know, oh, I'm going to do this for myself. I'm going to, you know, go see Joe for some coaching. And then you have this negative thought pattern. Yeah. But you've sucked. Like you've never been able to, you know,

finish a program. You're probably quit this one. You know, why are you spending your money there? Go buy a Prada bag. Right. So you, you know, and so becoming the witness of that eco and just putting it in a timeout, that was like the hugest realization of my life that I had. I mean, I can't believe how I talk to myself. And I still, like you said, it still tries to come in my head sometimes. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? It's amazing. It's amazing. The self-doubt mirroring is very important. The positive mirroring, because, you know, I don't know, I'm like 30, 40, 50 episodes. I don't even know where I'm at yet. And there's a part of me that still sees no worth and no value in what I do. And, you know, that's, that's all me. So you could mirror all you

want. And you could try to lead me there until I get to the point where I actually fully believe it, it's not going to matter. So all the flash and all the stuff you dress yourself up with, to get the attention to get the validation. That's part of it. Like when I these people that are coaching have to go and do the work. They have to go process what we discussed. They have to go into the feelings of why they feel like guilt, why they feel the shame,

why they feel like shit, why they can't believe that they have worth and value. And that's important that it's not like, you know, you go to regular therapy and you show up, you talk for now, and then you're on your week and you forget about it. You have to do the work. And the ones that do the most work are the ones that continue to come back because they just keep peeling away layers.

And there's that excitement when that light bulb goes on that, that moment where it clicks and you feel like a thousand pounds emotionally lighter, it's kind of addictive. And you want to get to that next layer. The only problem is it's, you can't force the layers. They're going to come when they choose to come. You just need to be paying attention for them. Do you work with divine guidance? Are you? No. Okay. Like for me and my end, my thing is more on the spiritual side where I invite higher self or the God force energy I like to call to be able to guide us. And when you embody more of that, it helps you to kind of be more of the observer, like Shanna said,

so that when you're the observer, you can hear that ego because it's still very much present. And as its presence is making its way to you, you are able to be more aware of, I hear the love, but then I hear the negativity and I am working towards love and this one feels better. So I'm just going to go and listen to this one, but that does take so much effort and work. You just said it, Ellen, this one feels better. You have to go and you have to trust the discernment because your body and soul will never lie to you. It's never going to agree with your piece of shit. It's going to feel good when you're telling about how you've got to believe it and put it into action because I had so much knowledge on this, right?

I'm like, I know everything about it. I can quote it, but I wasn't using it. But I could tell you all about it. In fact, I mean, maybe you would even use it and be successful, but I wasn't. But I was pretending that I was like, you know, very knowledgeable in this. But then once I, it clicked for me and I started using it now that that action turned into wisdom, like true wisdom. And that's where I thought you have to put it into action. I tried to read through it. I tried to think through it. I tried to act through it. I tried to acquire through it. I tried to think through it. I tried to act through it. I tried to acquire through it. I tried

to drug through it, work through it, sex through it, nothing. It didn't take me anywhere. It was sitting with those feelings alone, quiet, the depths of the pain in my soul, touching it and just letting me sob sometimes felt like days and getting it out because we weren't allowed to express it. We weren't allowed to show it and we weren't allowed to feel it. So we pushed it down so far that we cut off from it. It's reconnecting to that dark place inside of you, the hate, the rage, the fear, the hurt, the abuse, all of this stuff that we were taught to put away, it's incorporating it back in. See, if I'm pretending to be nice and happy all the time, I'm denying a whole other part of me that is screaming. It's like a child that doesn't get attention. It's going to become obnoxious

until you pay attention to it. And there's the anxiety, there's the fear, there's the panic. It wants to be seen, felt, heard, grieved, and then released. But it is the hardest. It's hard. Just tell me where it is and I'll go there at this point. I just don't know where it is until that layer comes. And it's like, okay, now you're either going to sit here miserable or you're going to go into it and deal with it. And that's when the change happens is when you start to feel as bad as you really truly feel. So you don't have to feel bad about it anymore. You've got a hard job, man. I love it though. I have to be honest. When I see people, when that moment comes and I can see it on their face, when they go to those places and they're sobbing hysterically in front of me, and I hold that space for them, and then they feel that all of that has left. And then they talk about it because it clicked in their head.

They realize, I'm feeling bad over here because of this happening over there and that dot gets connected and then they incorporate that back in to see that and watch people's progress is is phenomenal like i can't even tell you the joy seeing other i mean they're crying and they're upset but there's a joy that comes after it that's the place that i love freedom there is a freedom and knowing how and when to bring something to their attention. Like you can feel resistance, you can feel walls. And it's like, I see this so clear right now. And I just want to tell you this, but I know if I do, it's going to take you off track. So you drop the breadcrumbs and they start to follow it. And when, for me in therapy or when I'm being coached, when I process it and I get to it

on my own, it is 10 times more powerful, a hundred times more powerful than when somebody tells me what it is. Absolutely. And that's why your job is hard because for me, I can't do that. If I see something, it's just like my mouth will go for me, I can't do that. If I see something just like my mouth will go and I'll just have to tell them. But I know deep inside that the person needs to come to their conclusion on their own in order for it to make sense because you can tell them whatever, but if they didn't come up with it and it didn't come through them, it doesn't mean anything. So

that's why your job is like so awesome because you have that patience, that love, that compassion to be able to hold that. That's a massive amount of space to hold that massive amount. That's what you need though. That's really what you need though. You know, I had this girl, she texted me this morning. She's one of my students and she said, Oh, Tina, I'm so stressed right now. I'm having a hard time doing what I know I need to do. And this, this and that. I'm so busy and I have a lot going on. And my breadcrumbs were just like a few sentences. I hope you have a good day.

You know, remember, you know, what is yours and what's not yours and what you can control and what you can't. That's all I threw at her. But I mean, really, if it's not yours, then you can't control it. And most of the things we can't control, can't control the weather, worried about what's not here yet, being present in the present moment. For me, that was my savior. It's hard to be in the present moment when you're constantly reliving trauma that you haven't processed. So my job is to get you back to that trauma,

to that event. So the being present is actually forgetting that we're talking, forgetting that I'm in the room. When you go within yourself and you can feel the air from that day, the temperature, the smells, the sights, the sounds, when you actually put yourself back to that moment and relive it, when you come out of that, that's when you're in present.

Right. Like you're being present with the trauma, right? Instead of letting the trauma be your present, you are in control of it and you are being present. You know, you're, that's the difference. You're the one in the driver's seat. Our human brains can hide shit. I've been working for years and years and years working with other people, having many healings throughout my life. And since I've been on my journey and whenever I would hear stories like yours, I'd be like, Oh, that's so sad. That happened to me too, but it didn't affect me. I wouldn't tell you that, but that's what I'm thinking.

Maybe about a month ago, I wake up in the middle of the night and everything I thought never affected me, I realized had been affecting me forever. And maybe I couldn't remember what it felt like, but my body remembered the fear. Everything hit me like a fucking ton of bricks. I never even knew it existed in me that fear at that moment. I had no idea that it was there.

It has affected every relationship that I've ever been in. I was just blown away. But so then once I realized it, I was like, holy shit, that's been living in me, this fear. But that's all it really takes. It takes sitting with it, acknowledging it, giving it some care and some love. You know, I sat with myself just crying, sitting with the fear, my body, how it feels so tense and tight, and just really connecting all the dots, like you said. And then I was like, I'm letting that shit go, you know, but I had to be present with it. That's it. I mean, you know, intellectually, you know, I'm just, you know, I just hit another

layer that's been coming up and I know it's coming and I haven't felt on top of my game and intellectually, I kind of know what it is and I'm starting to move that way, but I can't think, I can't think my way to it. I have to, I have to stop thinking about it and lay down and let the feelings come up. The feelings will lead you to freedom. Your thoughts will lead you to shame. Like it's just, I got to get out of my head and into my body. I have completely cut my body off my entire life. And I'm learning how to integrate my mind and my body back together. What is your hope with sharing your story? Man, you know, I mean, there's a personal hope. And then there's like a universe hope,

you know, personal hope would be not to feel frightened to feel more free within myself to let go to love myself more to allow myself to feel joy and not shame myself every time I try to give to myself that would be phenomenal um not struggling through you know misery to get to joy just just allowing it to be. And for the universe, it's, you know, I didn't really plan this path and I did not plan the podcast or the coaching. You know, I just think of it as a ripple effect. You know, I am not going to change the world. I'm just going to change the people's world that I come in contact with, however that is, and it's attraction, not promotion, and just healing. If I can help somebody, I was alone in it. I suffered alone in it. It was,

you know, I'm getting emotional thinking about it. I think that's probably the biggest catalyst for me taking the time to do all this is I never want any other human to get to the point where you want to leave this planet and feel like you have nobody else that you matter to that's why we do it too yeah and that's you know that's everything it's getting out of fear and into love and sharing it and being vulnerable especially as a man and yeah I had like 20 people popping up in my head just like every five seconds when you're talking like I've got to share your podcast with this one that one I just think that it's beautiful I think you're rare soul and I just kind of appreciate you so much that you are just being so vulnerable and putting your

shit out there just to help other people and to heal yourself too. In return, it's a beautiful thing. Isn't it crazy? Like whoever thought that, you know, like as a teenager, if someone would have said, you know what, what you really have to do, you have to lose everything. And then you will eventually find, you know, where you're supposed to be and heal yourself. I'm going to tell you what's the point.

Yeah, you get to build yourself up the way you want. And we don't know what that is, because we were told how to build ourselves up. So it's a very lonely, difficult, painful process, but the rewards are fantastic. And the people that I've met along the way, including myself, like I'm meeting me every day. It's like, holy shit. I didn't know. I like that. When did I miss the meeting?

When was the fucking memo on that? Okay. I guess we're going to do this for a while now. So it's, it's, it's when you get through the worst of it, there's joys that you wouldn't have known any other way. Yeah. Yeah. What is your coaching like in terms of timeframes? You know, I'm pretty flexible. Like I don't like to feel pressured and I need space and to decide things and everything, you know, it takes me about an hour to process before I do it. So I keep it kind of open. You can buy one session, four sessions, eight sessions, schedule it whenever you want.

I have some that are once a month, some that are twice a week, once a week, some whenever the hell they just can't cope with life, they'll schedule a session. I want people to feel comfortable in their recovery. And it's not about me. It's about them. I just feel lucky enough to have gone through what I've gone through to get to a place where I can hold space for others. And hopefully they'll pass it on to the people in their lives.

And there's the ripple effect. And hopefully it keeps spreading out. And I absolutely love your podcast. Speaking of, what is it? in their lives and there's the ripple effect and hopefully it keeps spreading out and i i absolutely love your podcast speaking of what is it it's called it's not you it's your trauma go to joe ryan.com i have links to uh all of it there at spotify apple you know places yeah i'm glad thank you it's uh and that's you know it's another thing. It's just raw. It's genuine. It's vulnerable. There's zero production value at all to it. Like I just, if I can get somebody to write my show notes and post it to social media,

I'd probably do an episode a week. But the fact that I have to do all that shit that comes with it, like I just, I lose interest. I just want to speak and move on. I don't want to have to post and interact that way. We put out two a week, Joe. Oh my God. You know how I started my podcast? I was literally jumping on the trampoline. And prior to that, I was depressed for weeks. I was crying. I was going through, I guess, the layer that was just being, you know, ripped off. And while I was jumping on

the trampoline to help me get my emotions in balance, I just kept hearing, people need to hear this. People need to hear this. Record now, record now. And I'm like, damn it. I have to do this because I've been hearing this for months.

And now I just gotta get it out there. And I also said, I don't care about the production. I don't care about having this stuff. I did a little bit of hearing that, but honestly, it's just raw. That's what, that's the way I record. It's like, I never think about what I'm going to, I think once or twice I thought about it beforehand, but it's the same way for you. I'll just be walking along. This thing just starts gnawing the shit out of me and I can't get it out

of my head. And it's like, all right, I can write it out or I just turn the mic on. And you know, it takes a while. I takes a while I mean I'm so far down the road with so much of this that the layers don't come every hour anymore they're spread out over the weeks a month it's not as often and I'm not recording as often because it's to get to that raw place it's not easy to get to like it has it takes you there and when it takes you there you know when you're ready to speak and that keeps it so much more authentic you are like that Ellen yeah I mean our podcast has become its own growth that actually is a side of Mandy and I now but yes you both have like that similar purpose

with your podcast yeah and I was beating myself up because I was doing seasons I'm like you know what I can't record right now I have other things going on I'm not myself up because I was doing seasons I'm like you know what I can't record right now I have other things going on I'm not even feeling that I need to record so I put it on side and sometimes I have this thought like what if people think I'm not professional I said you know what the fuck with that I don't care yeah tell me your last podcast though I thought it was so great oh I was doing a spiritually fat series I thought it was great. I did two, two episodes on that, but in general, it just made me go down this path of, you know, figuring out why we have so much weight. And I, part of my, my healing modality is what I use for this. I use Gematria. It's basically the

Hebrew phonetics of words you would transfer into numerology in the Hebrew phonetics. I broke down the word fat and I was just shocked with what I saw. It was just like a very powerful thing. And you know, that made me go down into my own understanding of what, what I was holding on to and stuff. So that's where I stopped because like, and I'm on my own layer right now and I gotta start feeling before I think I love that it's a similar process for me that that sounds amazing thank you that connects with other people like your vulnerability and you're willing to share your experiences of what you're going through I mean Mandy and I too that's what we do that's what we need that's what connects all of our lights together you know the more you come out of hiding with others the easier it

becomes you know I couldn't tell the story without crying for the first I don't know how long a year or so like I didn't want to do podcasts with other people because I knew I wasn't going to make it through it but when you start to own it and you start to get comfortable with it and it just becomes a part of your fabric of your core you don't think about like i would say stuff and then i will record an episode then i would hide for like 10 days because i was waiting for somebody to shame me publicly over it and now it's gotten to the point where you just own it it's like this is just a part of me and it feels really good to have that foundation and not have to hide anymore. And the stuff that comes up now, like where I'm at, there's so much I want to share, but I'm not comfortable with people

knowing it. So I'm in the process of making myself comfortable. And then when it gets there, that's like you were saying with your podcast, you feel it. It's like, okay, now I'm ready to share it. So there's a part of owning the shame and the humiliation yourself becoming okay with it, and then being able to translate it into words for others. And that's just such it's healing all around for everybody. Yeah, absolutely. I'm really glad I met somebody like this, you know, because I just thought I was the only schmucky person out there. I have to be honest with you. Nobody's ever described their podcast recording process like you did. Cause I would never describe it because I was like,

nobody's going to get it. So I appreciate that. Yeah. You shared it. Listen to an episode and see what yours is all about. I'm excited. Can't wait to share it. Bring extra tissues. You may need them. Which I love. I love that rawness and you know what i feel like you've given me a little courage today to maybe maybe start to finalize some of those episodes finally and i'm talking about but yeah my ancestry my ancestry oh that one that i have private that i send to only special people

right now but i have been sharing it i'm feeling i'm feeling inspired and encouraged and and that's because of our conversation it's going to help a lot of people i hear from a lot of people who found out they weren't where they thought they came from a lot of people who've been adopted it is you know it's going to help and it's going to heal and it's a lot more than that it's about a history that hasn't been told because we as americans especially have always focused on triumphs and i think that's one of the reasons why americans brains are very much on the reward. And that's how we've been taught history. And that's just not the fucking truth. And I'm ready to share the truth that hasn't been told. And I do feel very passionate about it. And when I started to connect with it,

at first, I was very shamed. And then I was very sad and disappointed and mad. And then I came to a point where I even actually wrote this at the end of one of my podcasts, like the whole, I wanted to shout from sea to shiny sea, right? I wanted to get on the purple mountain and, you know, just like the song, because I wanted everyone to know the truth. And like, why haven't we been told these things? You know, why are we only focusing on Yankee Doodle? It's all of the trauma that we've ran from and haven't been able to face really what's the reason why we're not loving ourselves because our ancestors went through so much just to survive that they didn't have time to think about what can i do to not be stressed you know so true so

much trauma so much we're not supposed to be living this way we're not supposed to be in cubicles and work you know selling our soul for you know nickels at the end of the week, we're supposed to be out in nature, we're supposed to be connecting. You know, the worst thing that's happened to humanity is social media, completely disconnected, all groups got in the corner, and just started hating on others. I try not to use my phone as much as possible. I mean, it's part of my business, but I just feel that we're not in a good way. And when people start to get bored and less addicted to their phones and start reconnecting again, some healing may occur, but I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.

It's so scary. That's why there's so many suicides, all that FOMO. You know, you see this great dad on the side of the soccer field, you know, you know, signs for his son. And then, you know, the dad that had to work or didn't show up because he's depressed at home looks like a dad that doesn't give a shit about his kid, which is not fucking true. That dad loves his kid. He's doing the best he can right now. We used to judge ourselves by the people we surrounded us with in school and our neighborhood and that we were limited. Now we get to like shame and judge ourselves based on the entire world. So it's like this onslaught of I'm not good enough. I'm not good looking enough. I don't

have enough money. I don't have a good card. I don't have enough talent. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just like, I got to shut it off. No more reading for a while. Yeah. Do what you have to do to get yourself, you know, back into the state of presence and what makes you feel better. But you know what else though, Joe and Ellen, when we first started this podcast not long ago, there was only a few podcasts like ours and now there's a shit ton. So that is very beautiful thing too. I remember when my therapist first said, Shanna, you need to look at the word empath. I'm thinking that you really are an empath. I was like, what? And there's maybe one or two articles back then, like almost 10 years ago. And now everybody knows, you know, that that is something. And so I feel like we are awakening and it's our job

you know right to try to help this these younger generations be more accepting of themselves to love themselves and we have to heal first so that we can show them that absolutely and now it's time for break that shit down. Oh, wow. On the spot. Just keep looking to yourself. Stop looking at the world around you. It is manufactured is fake and is phony being authentic in a real world feel shaming, you know, lean into that shame and dismantle it because you have more worth and value than you will ever know. But if you keep judging yourself by what you're seeing around you that isn't real, you're not going to get out of it. You have to question the world we're living in versus your authenticity. That's right. Thank you so much, Joe. JoeRyan.com and go listen to his podcast. It's not you. It's your drama. All right. Thanks, Joe. Nice to meet you. You too. Thank you very much. This was great. Thanks for being with us today. We hope you will come back next week.

If you like what you hear, don't forget to rate, like, and subscribe. Thank you. We rise to lift you up. Thanks for listening.