Sense of Soul - Jungian Life Coach

Episode Date: June 18, 2021

We had with us Jungian Life Coach Debra Maldonado, she is the Co-Founder of CreativeMind - Jungian Life Coach Training for Elevated Personal Development and co host of Soul Sessions podcast. She is the author of “Let Love In: Open Your Heart & Mind to Attract Your Ideal Partner” CreativeMind is based on Jungian Psychology and Eastern Philosophies, a system used over the past ten years to help individuals create lasting love, live their purpose, become more abundant and healthy as well as attain spiritual wisdom and true spiritual fulfillment in life. They call the CreativeMind Method - developed by Debraand her husband Robert Maldonado.  Jungian Life Coach Training with CreativeMind University is for aspiring Life Coaches seeking a superior coaching model, a dynamic community, a transformational personal experience, and the tools for making positive impact on others. https://creativemindmethod.com Visit www.mysenseofsoul.com to see the latest we going on! USE SOSCIRCLE, to check out free to join our Sense of Soul Sacred Circle.    

Welcome to the Sense of Soul podcast. We are your hosts, Shanna and Mandy. Grab your coffee, open your mind, heart and soul. It's time to awaken. Today we have with us Deborah Maldonado, a master trainer, Jungian life coach. She is the CEO of Creative Mind Media and the co-founder of Creative Mind Coaching and co-chair of the International Jungian Coaches Association. She is the author of the best-selling book, Let Love In, Open Your Heart and Mind to Attract Your Ideal Partner. Deborah's passion is to inspire people to do what they love, helping others to become entrepreneurs as life coaches, authors, and trainers. She and her husband are the founders of the Creative

Mind University, where they have their amazing Jungian Life Coach Certification Program. Debra and her husband, Robert, also are the host of the Creative Mind Soul Sessions podcast. And today we welcome Deborah. It is such a pleasure. Thank you so much for being with us. It's great to be here. And I love Colorado. So I feel like I'm there today. Colorado is just gorgeous. Well, let's talk about Colorado. You used to live in Colorado. So that was special and hit Shanna and I's hearts. It's really where I found myself. Young talks about individuation and it's about like leaving the herd. For some reason, I have no idea. I am afraid of change. I'm very introverted.

I'm not like the type of person to go out and like do anything drastic. I just had this urge to just get away from New Jersey, move to Colorado. My cousin lived there. And I just, I don't know, it just felt like home to me. And I didn't know why. It didn't make any logical sense because I love the beach and I never hiked before. I'm not an outdoorsy girl. So I'm like, what is going on? But when I moved there, I realized that there was something about the people I met, the women that I was meeting. I was 29, at that age where you're just like, all your friends got married back home and kind of in that mode of trying to figure our lives out. And most of my friends were entrepreneurs.

And so I secretly thought, I want to have my own, like, this is another way to live. You know, I don't have to work a nine to five job actually to do what I love and be happy. And so it was just opened up my mind and I tried everything, you know, Colorado, they have like every new age trick in the book. And I mean, I did a lot of exploration and Rob says, I put it in my shadow sometimes, like I just want to get, but you know, you have to integrate all the things that you learn. And what was really special, I think, is that took me out of my normal everyday average, what I've been conditioned to be and stretched me so much just to be in a new place and try new things and meet a different level of people that didn't grow up with you.

And so I always say it's where I found my soul. Oh, I love that. You know, my son's doing that right now. He just decided to leave Colorado and go to Louisiana. And because that's where I'm from. So our family's there. But he said that same thing. He's like, I just feel like I have to get out of this, you know, scenery, I need some new, you know, things to look at some new people that don't know me just a place for me to discover myself. You know, I'll tell you, so Mandy and I on our journey, it seems like every time everything we are studying or interested in, we look around the corner and there's Carl Young. And we're like, Oh, okay. Who is this dude? Every time popping up,

we became big fans. What's a young Ian? Let's talk about that. Who is Carl Jung? Here's my easy armchair definition of whether you're Jungian or not. Freud and Jung were basically really at the forefront of modern psychology. And where they diverged were two things, the sexual theory. Jung didn't believe that our only urge is to recreate. He felt like there was a spiritual sense to us. And then also Freud believed that there was only a personal unconscious and that we were kind of just this little ego, just trying to basically survive. And Jung is like, wait a minute, I think there's this other collective unconscious and there's this other part of ourselves. And like Freud's goal was basically to build up the ego and to make it positive. And you see a lot of that in personal growth.

Be positive and say affirmations and all those things. But Jung said, well, what are we shining up the ego for? Let's see what else that's transpersonal. So I would say a Jungian person or someone who's doing Jungian work is someone who's going beyond the personal, beyond their personal history. And they're basically tapping into their soul, their spiritual self that's transpersonal, that doesn't have a kind of the definitions that your personality gives you and the limitations that your personality can give you. So that's it. That's what I say in a nutshell of Jung. And you know, what's so weird is that how

I found him was in my early parts of my journey years ago, I kept seeing things like twos and then that would lead to this. And there was all these things and I was calling him just, wow, these are so many amazing coincidences in a row. And then looking into that synchronicity and of course, Jung wrote about synchronicity. Then it was like, oh, you know, I'm having these weird dreams and they're actually synchronicities. And this, oh, you wrote a book about dreams. Like he really tapped into the world's wonders, like almost, right? Everything that we sat and pondered on and said, hmm, what is that about?

Yeah, it shocked me that Shanna, you know, I had been sitting in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous for, you know, nine years and Shanna discovered, I don't even know how I missed this, that he even had a part in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. Yeah. Bill Smith actually was his patient and taught him that it's a spiritual solution you're looking for. So you see the divergence with modern psychology decided to go with the medical model of the healing, pathologizing, you know, people being depressed. And yes, there is some mental illness in psychology, but we shouldn't lump everyone in that model. You know, not everyone has a disorder. Most people are really ready for something bigger. Alcoholism, I think they initially thought of it as a disorder and Jung, I think brought this idea that it as a disorder. And Jung, I think,

brought this idea that it's not. It's a spiritual crisis. And he's also responsible for the archetypes, which we actually just got off with Shai Tivali, who created the seven chakra personality types. Seems like everyone has an archetype for explaining different people, you know, have different personalities. What is your favorite Jungian work? Well, well, I love dream work. That's my favorite. Dream work. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've gotten so much out. I feel like my dream life is just always that mirror of what's going on underneath that you can't see. And there's only so much consciously that you can take it in the world and make assessments of where you are, what your goals are, what you want to do with your life, what do you need to develop yourself. But the dream will give you that raw, unfiltered answers

to what you need. I look at dreams as more like, what do I need to develop in myself versus what's going to happen tomorrow or that kind of thing. It's kind of showing me where I'm off base or I need to rebalance or my conscious attitude is going one way or another. And one thing I love about Jung is he talks about balance and really the psyche is alive. It's not like a Freudian subconscious where it's just programming. It's actually more alive than we're conscious of. And there's this other part of us that wants to live through us. This active force and dreams give us access to that every night. One thing I want to say, people that want to look at Jungian work, they need to do their shadow work first. You can't go to the archetypes and the animus and all the other fun things unless you do the

shadow work or else you're going to inflate your ego with the archetypal work. And that's not a good, good thing to do. You're going to have to face the shadow eventually. So that's one of the things I recommend is you have to do shadow work. So I just listened to your podcast with your husband this morning, and you guys were talking a lot about how you can dip into like the tarot cards and the breaking and the energy work and all these fun retreats. But you said exactly what you just said in the podcast that you should start with that shadow work. Because shadow work helps you realize that you're not the ego. And the ego is that surface personality. And we're so conditioned to be externalized and to see ourselves as this like kind of

shell personality. And then we end up thinking we just need to fix up here. And the shadow work is all the parts that we're not conscious of that we're actually pushing away. Shadow work gets a bad name because everyone thinks it's negative beliefs or that it's something like dark or bad. And yeah, there's some people that have darkness in their shadow, but most people don't.

Most were just normal people. And it's all based on a social conditioning. So how we relate to others in the world and the things that aren't adaptable go in the shadow. And we're all conditioned to be this kind of herd mentality to conform. You can't really go into the collective if you're still haven't dealt with your own, what you pushed away on a personal level, because what will happen is you'll just be projecting

the kind of things that you haven't dealt with yet onto the archetypes. So if you think about the beauty of shadow work is basically becoming whole with yourself on a individual, like a personal level. So then that whole personality on a conscious level has the power to relate to the powers of the collective. If you have a weak ego, you'll see people like, look at celebrities, they borrow archetypes for their persona and then it becomes inflated and then they get depressed or they can't hold the projection that people put on them. I see this happening in the coaching industry, women, you know, they, they make a lot of money and they become this famous coach and then everyone's

projecting on them and they haven't done their shadow work. And they're so attached to being famous or being, you know, that success. And then it's going to come back. We do that in relationships. We talked about this not too long ago, you know, kind of like selling yourself as this put together person that can cook and, you know, sweet and all this stuff. But all of a sudden, a year later, you're like, who the hell are you? And the sad part is that we don't even know we're doing it. And we're thinking I'm being this person and this is who I am. And then your shadow, your partner is always going to reflect your shadow.

And so if you don't recognize it, you're just going to not be happy with each other, but recognizing each other's shadow will help you. If both parties do it, it turns into a beautiful relationship because then you're kind of, you're really connecting on a soul level, not an ego level. You're always connecting on an ego level in the, until midlife, until we start that process of individuation. No wonder why you show with your husband. You guys are probably like, oh, I see your shadow. I remember when we first started doing this work together and we would get in an argument and be like, now, is that my shadow or are you really doing that? And we would just talk about it.

And we've been together 17 years. We work together. We live together. We don't have any kids. I mean, he has a son, he's all grown and we don't have fights. I mean, we just get along and it's just, there's no ego. I mean, we're normal people. We're not like floating around, but it's like a relationship on that soul level. It's like the feeling that they're never going to leave. You're seeing yourself in them. You're seeing your soul in them. And that's really a beautiful thing. And that's how we should see, all of us should see this, our soul in everyone else. But we end up just the people that trigger us, show us our shadow. And we don't realize that

we think those are the bad people. Let's stay away from those toxic people. But then they keep showing up and you're just like, wow, this world is full of terrible people or the world can be full of beautiful people. It depends on how much aware you are of your own self. Okay. So I'm going to use myself as an example. I tend to attract men that are aggressive,

high achievers, narcissistic personality traits, very corporate money-driven. I always choose the quarterback, the big man on campus. Yeah. That's my guy. So if I were to look at those traits and that shadow part of myself, whoa. Well, what part do you, What part triggers you the most? I think what triggers me the most is... Is it the money? Is it the success? Is it the power? I'm going to sit with this for a moment. What triggers me the most would be their aggressive gaslighting, the need for them to always be the best and be right and be that. Okay. Whatever we push away, whatever we judge is what's in our own shadow.

Okay. So it's a part of the psyche that we reject and every person, we have all the personalities within us. And then we choose the persona that fits that we like is pleasant or pleasing. What's your personality like persona? Well, so I'm very much an empath and a caretaker and a caregiver. I love people. I love authenticity. I love genuine heartfelt connection. I love helping others. I love being a sponsor for people that are struggling with addiction. And I love people's stories. I love stories. And so how does that limit you? If you can't be the aggressor ever in your life? How does that limit your expression of yourself?

If you have to always be the kind, empathetic person, how does that limit you? What area of your life does that limit you? It's not that you want to be that person, but you fear being judged that way. Speaking my truth sometimes and putting up boundaries. Yeah, that's it. I know so many people that do this kind of work or do any kind of personal development work. They're more empathetic. They're sensitive.

They're kind. They're do-gooders. And the problem is, on a surface, it seems very nice. But what happens is that you can only be that if you identify with who you are is what you do. Like if I act this way, then that's who I am. So you're in a cage still. You're in the cage of empathy. And it doesn't feel like a cage because you think it's a good quality.

But in a way, it is if you have to be that way. And it's not that you don't, but you want it to be a choice. You don't want it to be something that you're afraid of not being, of wrecking that perfect, this nice you that feels authentic. And it probably is mostly more your authentic self, but to be more authentic would be keeping boundaries. I would guess that at some point in your life, you probably pushed away some family member who had power and you have a kind of a rejection to power. And you've kind of, your ego has seen it. Power is bad. Power hurts people. But if you kind of open it up and look at it, you know, power is being assertive and asking for what you want.

And, you know, maybe you might hurt someone's feelings when you say no, or you might hurt someone's feelings when you ask for something. And so to allow that power to arise. So these people show up in your life because you're not playing the role. So that energy has to go somewhere. So the ego will find someone else to play that role, to be that container for that aspect of your personality. Okay. Holy crap. How much do I owe you? So your judgment of his power is your judgment of your own.

Right. Well, and you know, it's interesting. As Mandy began to own her own power, and when one person has always been the fuel of the fire, they don't want to share that. Yeah, they'll fall away. But I would invite you to keep going with that. Like keep building that. For me, I'm the pleaser. That's my persona. The pleaser.

We actually have these four archetypes. They're really more persona types. Archetypes are more non-personal. So we have these four persona types based on Tony Wolfe. And there's the mother, which is the nurturer, the lover who she's like kind of the wild, untamed, non-committal, passionate. We all have a friend like that. The professional who's kind of very corporate, very successful, but doesn't really tap into our emotions. And then the mystic who's kind of very corporate, very successful, but doesn't really tap into our emotions. And then the mystic who's just rejects material, rejects money, is like all about escaping material, the material world, not just money, but just the physical world.

I want to kind of be in the other place. And so we are all kind of picked that as a woman, we pick kind of one of those as our kind of pattern. And I find a lot of mothers, like a mother type, and it's kind of like that we want to take care of people and we want to nurture people and we want to make sure people feel safe. And a lot of times because we didn't feel that way when we were kids and we want to make up for it, or we had a parent that did that to us and we were like, we wanted to emulate it. But then that becomes a trap because we can't be irresponsible.

We can't hurt people's feelings. We don't like drama. We don't like people like getting all upset. We're like the calming force, which is not a bad thing. But then again, it's all about choice. It's all about, we can be that, but we can also not be afraid of being perceived in other ways. And that's really the whole personality. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. I don't know if you heard me earlier, but I'm like, how much do I owe you? Sometimes, you know, it takes someone like you just to ask those few questions.

It blows my mind how that simple little conversation got me to a place where now I understand that shadow. Yeah. And it's really, that's what our coaching method does. It's not about healing. It's not about like, let's go visit all your childhood wounds and traumas. It's like, you know what? Maybe you have, but let's deal with what's going on right now.

And these questions get right to the root of it. You don't need to regress and go back. You can kind of put the dots together and that's fine. But when you have that understanding, it's like, it's so freeing. You know, it's like, it can be so simple and we just don't see it. It's not conscious. So that's what. Yeah, because, you know, as humans, we like to make everything that much harder than it really needs to be.

So let me ask you a question. When I walked into the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous, was I broken? Cause I felt broken. Was I broken? Nope. You were, you were, you were craving spiritual, something spiritual and your body didn't know how to get there. I mean, your mind, your body didn't know how to get there. I mean, your ego didn't know how to get there. You were craving something, any kind of addiction, people searching for love, people even searching for money and success, whatever that craving is.

We're all human beings and we just use something because we're chasing that pleasure, which we thank Freud for, the pleasure principle. We're always moving away from pain toward pleasure. And we think that the pleasures are in the world. And actually, people with addictions, they're really ready. And even depressed people, they're checking out of the world. They're like, I know it's not here. I got to go somewhere else. And so we kind of find what's available. People that use drugs even, you know, they get to these states and then just like, how do I keep that state? How do I feel at peace with myself? How do I escape this ego?

And it's just, you were just using that as a tool. And now you found a better tool. For me, my search for love, there was nothing wrong with me. I had issues with my dad and stuff, but it wasn't like I was broken. But that led me to individuation. It led me to my spiritual path. So was I broken? No. Anyone who seeks help for some human problem is always seeking the divine in them. The soul is like calling them. Right. And I love Jung's quote in theory on, it's not what has happened to you in your life it's not all those things it's

what you choose to now do with it and for mandy and i we chose to do since it's old basically for many reasons but for one a way to let people know that they're not alone and to share our stories of in return like we feel like we're sitting with teachers every day learning like from people like you and so like the journey continues you have to do something though you can't just sit on these beautiful thoughts that you have in your head that you've figured it out but yet you don't do anything you have to be yeah i think you definitely need a coach or a guide to go through the process you don't necessarily need a young analyst unless you want to do therapy. You can actually go and that's what we do as trained coaches, but it's having someone who can be there for you outside of your own mind because it's so powerful. I mean, even just the therapeutic effect of having someone doing a coaching session, there's a

transmission that happens. So your wisdom is passed to your clients, kind of unconsciously raising them into higher consciousness just by them engaging with you. Thousands and thousands of years, there's always been a guru and a student. And I always find that my clients are my best gurus. I mean, every time I do a session and even interviews like this, I always feel like I get another piece of the work and grow myself. So it's like, there's not an end to it. It's, you know, Jung talks about the mandala and he says, it's like a circumambulation. It's not like growth isn't like a stepping, you know, linear process. It's actually what you're doing is the

soul is in the center and we're just trying to find different ways to get there. And so maybe in the beginning, when we're out here, we're doing all the, you know, kind of spiritual, you know, fads that are out there, the quick fixes, and we're just starting, or maybe it's AA and we're doing something. And then it's kind of this soul is kind of calling us in. So we're kind of coming from different places and we're making ourselves whole again into the center. So I find that a lot of people feel like it's, they fell backwards or they have a setback and they're so worried that they're going to lose their enlightenment. And it's like, it's always kind of moving toward the center and there's always these other pieces that come around

and isn't that beautiful? Yeah. Instead of it being like a spiritual staircase, which makes you higher than something below you, there's none of that. It's you're coming back to that core. Yes. And he, Young also said that if you are doing a session with someone, he did a lot of sessions. Like I would say he was like the first coach because he really didn't do therapy. He was really talking about individuation. And he said, when you do a session with someone, the person that is the coachee or the therapist, the analyst, he said, has to be open to their own transformation as well as the client. You can't just go in and think, I know it all. You have to have that vulnerability of, let me see what's here and be open to what this client can teach me too about my psyche. Cause

they're all projections of your own psyche too. Like everyone's part of you. And I think that's what really bridges that kind of coaching and that kind of apprenticeship and guruship to have that go both ways. And just like self-inquiry, but not like severe self-inquiry. Like some people go that far, but- Severe self-inquiry. What is going on? Well, we've had like, nothing is nothing is nothing is nothing. And it's like, oh my God, what are we talking about? Nothing. And that was the difference between how Jung and Freud analyzed dreams. I like how it's not like you're going to tell me and figure it out for me. I have to explore this within myself to be able to have

that awakening. You have to trigger me to have that aha moment like you did with those questions. Yeah. It's kind of like how I entered this podcast today. I wasn't thinking, okay, I'm going to say this, this, and this. Being in that welcoming, learning conversation place is just very beautiful and deeper wisdom within us will emerge. And that's what we want. We want to get the ego out of the way and we want to allow the process to happen within ourselves.

And I think a lot of times for me, I was really hard on myself with personal development because I was like, I'm doing all this work on myself and I'm still single or I'm doing all this work on myself and this isn't happening. And we tend to be so hard on ourselves and we need to like give ourselves a break and allow the process to happen in a more gentle way. Love ourselves more as we go through it. This is being so hard on ourselves and discipline us into submission. So true. Shannon and I are huge on teaching self-love and giving ourselves grace. It's like, where did we lose that?

We're always trying to figure out ways to forgive everyone else, but never take time to learn to do that for ourselves. You know, there was something that you- Yeah, it's a self-compassion that we need. There was something you said that just, I loved so much. I wrote it down. You said the only thing that can make us suffer is ignorance of who we are. Most of us believe we're this ego where this, just this, our body, we end with the body, the brain, you know, a lot of people talk about neuroplasticity and rewiring the brain, but you're still working on this ego level. And those things are great, but there's so much more to us.

The ego is really in this world. It's not even real. It's actually an arising from the consciousness. We have this sense of individuality because we have a body, because we have a name, because we have a memory of past experiences being in this body. So we think we're this thing that's here, but there's also behind us, with us every moment is our pure awareness. And it's the part of us that's aware that we're having these conversations, that's aware that's listening to these conversations, and that awareness is who we are. And that part of us can

never be harmed, can never be damaged, can never be broken. And every problem that we have in our life is because we believe we're this body, this ego. We're always defending our reputation. We're always keeping our body safe. We're defining on ourselves on how much we weigh, especially women, what we look like. There's so much for women about their looks and their age and their bodies, defining their worth through that. And then men, it's all about how much money do we have and how successful I am and how manly I am in the world. And so there's a lot of that kind of suffering that's happening and chasing, building up this ego that leads us to all the pain, leads us to drink, leads us to have sex with people, cheat, be mean to people, mean to others.

I find it so amazing how a lot of the limitations, these negative thought patterns, really are things that don't even apply really to 2021. You know, we're talking like generational, like maybe that applied in 1800 that a woman wasn't allowed to do this, but honey, you don't have to live like that no more. For myself, when I was able to even realize that, like, oh my gosh, I was still living from this place where you just please everybody,

you know, almost like the submissive woman. I was putting limitations on what I was really truly here to connect with and be with and do. What do you think about that? Like, do you see that women are starting to overcome these generational patterns? Well, we talk a lot about this in, um, there there's this kind of, uh, of the parent shadow. We get a lot from our parents. I mean, there's personality genes that we inherit that are kind of our natural personality. Some of us are naturally external. Some people are more quiet. But one of the things that we look at is that the mother for the woman, the mother is very key to how she tells you what a woman is. And one of the main things

for women is you need to come to terms with your mother. You need to deal with your issues with your mother, the things you love and hate about her, because you are a woman on a conscious level and you have to deal with that. Or you'll never fully be able to accept all that you are as a woman. For men, it's not the same. They have to kind of break away from the mother because they need to become men. It's kind of ritualized in ancient and indigenous cultures, but not here. But there's a lot of people, and then even emulating the mother and being just like the mother, that's not good either. So you reject everything that's in your mother's shadow. So you basically take on her persona. So the mother has a shadow. And, and then I see a lot of women, they take on their mother's shadow and they become

their personas, the mother's shadow. So if the mother was really critical, the persona of the daughter becomes very, very giving, and then that goes in the shadow. So we need to kind of come to terms with that. And something that you might find fascinating, this idea of the mother archetype is a very powerful force that we all share. It's a universal theme and symbol of this mother. And we project onto our mothers that she needs to be this divine being. So it's our projection that we give our mother that she needs to be perfect, that she needs to be there for us all the time. And, and so all that, can you imagine that weight? I'm not saying the mother wasn't bad, but that kind of weight the mother has. And so we have to come to terms with our part in that and our expectations and really having

compassion for maybe, I mean, I deal with some people overseas, you know, in India and their mothers come from the old world, you know, like you just, you don't marry for love, you know? And so the culture gap, especially right now is getting bigger and bigger. We need to be fully woman and love ourselves. We need to love all aspects of the feminine. So it's important to show your children that you don't always have to be strong and put together. And it's okay to express your weaknesses and your sadness and your boundaries and needing your own space and to create self-care and to say, no, that's the shift that I've made for my girls is that, no, I don't, you don't have to be perfect as a mother

and it's okay to show that, but gosh, people really look down on you for being that vulnerable. Yeah. It's an expectation. And then the man, the father has to be the strong man that has to like protect the family and make the money. And if he's out of work, you know, it's like, oh, and again, that projection of the father. And then again, whatever we project on our father, we're bringing into our romantic relationships. If we're straight, we're going to project all that expectation onto the man of you're going to take care of my security, my response, sense of responsibility, and you need to be this way. And, and anytime we're telling other people how they should be, we're off the rails already. And then because we're doing, people are doing that to us all the time. And I think the best way to change the world is really

accept all of ourself, all parts of ourself. And then it really does have a ripple effect. The women that I've worked with over the years and some men, their families, their relationships change, their relationship with their parents change. It's just incredible. You start to kind of shift the whole dynamic of the family by you individuating, by you letting go of your own projections. You know, the healing comes first. If you want to help your kids, you got to heal first. And, you know, we had someone on that, that really blew my mind when they talked about this. And it reminded me of what we're just saying.

Like I, I, as a mother growing up, you know, in a Southern family, you know, the women took care of the children. Like we don't, we don't, the men don't have to do that. Okay. In fact, we'd rather you not. I grew up in that family too. I'm from New Jersey. But like, you know, like Mandy, for instance, she did not grow up that way completely.

Well, actually she kind of did, but she had a husband who didn't grow up that way. Okay. So he wanted to be very involved where mine was okay with me being the sole person of caretaking, but I was fine with that. Like there was no argument there, but the thing is, is that I robbed him from coming into that space and also take care of the child. You know, I kind of kept that going rather than breaking that strong generational pattern, which I think that when you talk about feminine and masculine energy, like you have to allow them to come into your space, just like they have to allow you to come into your space, just like they have to allow you to come within that energy as well. So that way you have more of a balanced relationship.

Well, man has, he suppresses the anima, which is the feminine principle of his soul. And so when he's caretaking a baby, you're actually help gendering him to bring out this his own soul and connect with his own soul. And that's why us women are so important to men because they can't get their soul without us. I mean, we are the bridge. They can't find that. So like women can tap into masculine will because we can do both, but men, they need us. We're there.

Rob always says you, you women are angels. You are the one who brings out our creativity or soulfulness, our heart. And so we have to remember that that's our power. We can't shun them from coming into that. It's like, you have problems. Oh, you're part of the problem. That's for sure. Because remember people saying to me like, well, that's messed up that, you know, he doesn't help you with that. And then I was like, really, is that messed up? Oh my God. Oh my God. That's so messed up. Why doesn't he help me?

But I would never allowed him to that. I didn't even give him the option, right? You know, I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it. Well, that's the conditioning. We just, we just don't, we think it's just the way it is. You know, we have to remember that everything has a little good and a little bad in it. Being the empathetic person and caring, sometimes you're hurting people when you're pleasing too much. You're not letting them kind of, especially kids, if you're always watching out for them and putting like little bubbles around them, they're never really going to know strength and power. They're always going to feel scared in the world. And so it's like everything needs to be in balance when there's

no one quality that's purely good and no one quality that's purely bad. It's the context we put around it that creates it. Let's talk about this school that you have put together. It's very intriguing to me. I want to know more. Tell our listeners about Creative Mind University. Well, we know there's a lot of places people can study young in psychology, get degrees and master's degrees and PhDs in young in analysis. And Rob is a psychologist. He has a PhD. And one of the things early on he realized was that people don't have access. Most people don't have access to all the beautiful research that we've done in psychology because everything's so dumbed down for the main public. They're not giving away all the great stuff. And then also young in psychology, there's a little snobbery with the young. Sometimes they're like, oh no, a young in coach,

we get a lot of people saying, what are you doing? You're going to let people go into their unconscious, you know? And it's like individuation was meant for, actually William Murray, who was a young psychologist said that everyone should go undergo individuation. It's a natural process. And it's actually more suited to people that don't need therapy than people that do. So individuation is actually perfect for coaches and life coaches. So we thought, you know, there's a lot of people teaching motivation and, you know, rewiring your brain and thinking positive and doing vision boards. And it's like, you know what? I loved wanting something deeper. And so Rob and I just got together and just started coaching our clients that came to us for love. They were like, I want to be a coach now.

2012 was our first year. So it's been almost 10 years, 11 years. We've been, or 10 years, we've been doing this and training people, lay people in how to do work with the shadow and in a coaching model. We underscore this is not therapy. You're not doing trauma work. I don't think anyone should do trauma work unless you're a licensed therapist. You should leave that to the experts. And why do you want to? Work with people that are ready to reach their potential. So we teach shadow work. We teach dream interpretation just in level one. We teach the anima animus, masculine, feminine visualization because I'm a hypnotherapist. So of course, I'm going to add that piece in how to write your own scripts.

Some people have PhDs. Some people have trained in Jungian analysis. And they said, wait a minute, I'm getting like really practical tools that I can use where it's not just theory. And so it's very experiential. Every student goes through the process themselves. We work with emotions. I mean, so many things.

And it's really, really a journey of individuation. And then we have like a master's level where we go deep into dreams and archetypes and more advanced work. I think it's for us a great opportunity for everyone to have more access to this Jungian work and not necessarily needing to go to an analyst and go to therapy to get this work and really have someone that can help them through it. Because you can read, there's so many people that I know that read Jungian books and study it, and they're trying to do it on their own. And to have someone to help be your guide

is really special and will make the process go faster and you won't get stuck in your little ego trying to convince you you this is enough. I'm not going to go there. Individuation doesn't have to be this like dreamy, like, let me just think about my archetypes and like, ooh, the way of the world. It can be very theoretical after a while. You want to have like that kind of on the ground practice with yourself and with other people and more deep spiritual experiences in the dream world. So there's so much there that you can use that's practical. Yeah.

Well, and if people need proof, I mean, walk into a room of Alcoholics Anonymous, which there's millions of meetings all around the world. We call ourselves truly miracles. We walk in there with no belief in a higher power whatsoever. And if we stay that way, we cannot get sober. I could not get sober until I believed in the spiritual realm and something outside of myself that was bigger in me. I have been sober since, along with hundreds of people I know. I mean, right there's your proof. Yeah. And I've been in this industry for a long time. I've met many, many, many people who've

gone through that, and friends even that have gone through the AA process. And one of my first roommates when I was younger was in a rehab, and the guy said that alcoholics are the most spiritual people on the planet because they're seeking God. They're seeking, they just don't know it. They're seeking God. And I think anytime we feel that there's something wrong with us or that, you know, we don't, things in life aren't working out, I feel like it's a gift because we don't get attached to the material world. And we start looking inward where the real gold is, and then we can have the outside world, but we really appreciate it versus using it as a place to feel secure. And we can find our security within. It's a beautiful thing.

And yeah, he's affected so many people in so many ways. I mean, if you look at the hero's journey, you look at every movie. I mean, we just did a series on our podcast of all the popular movies and how Jung had his concepts have driven the characters and all those Hollywood blockbusters that are all inspired by Jung. So give us an example. Well, Inception is about the dream world and the dream within the dream and people attacking them. That's the defenses of the ego going deeper into the unconscious. What was the other one? We talked

about the crown, that series on Netflix about the archetypes. Yeah. The mother, the princess, the prince, the kind of struggle between love and duty. You think differently than most people you're watching that you're seeing archetype you're seeing. And even like TV shows like Breaking Bad and, you know, like kind of the transformation of the character where he basically, he brought out his shadow. It's like, he was this perfect teacher. I don't know if you've seen it. Some people have adversity to that show, but he was this perfect guy and nothing was working out. So he kind of brought out this other, his shadow, basically, this terrible, you know, basically this terrible, you know, ruthless person that he wasn't. And so it's just really interesting. The transformation

of a character is all about Jung. It's all about facing your shadow. The superhero movies are all about shadow and archetypes. Right. Clark Kent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The persona. And then like, they're the ordinary person and then they have the seed in the divine in them that we all do. So we think we forgot who we are. Well, and they usually have a weakness, right? They usually have some significance. But the weakness turns out to be their strength. And they don't know they come from divinity. They're the, you know, the king that has a lot. I mean, even in the Bible, there's stories of, you know, Moses didn't know he was a king and, you know, like just all these wonderful, you know, it's all around us, the myths of humanity. And it's, that's what Jung was started to see is that it's all

around us as this kind of collective story as human beings. And we have to look beyond that and see the bigger patterns in our life and see how they play out. And we can be caught up in that, just like we get caught up in our mother being, has to be the perfect mother and all these things that we think have to be a certain way. The villain always has to be a villain. Why can't the villain transform and become the hero, right? Yeah, yeah. Set and forget.

And so that's what Young is all about is letting people realize there's more to them than just this little mask that we put on. So how important is it for each one of us to individually align with our souls and do the work? Like how important is that to the collective consciousness of our world? We're not separate from it. So it's all of us. I mean, it's us. It's the most, I think it's the only, only path that we need to do. In Vedanta, they say the only goal in life is to realize the self, to self-realization, self-actualization, individuation. That's where

we're going because that's the only place we're truly free when you go to that place it's not just the self the self is everything it's it's you it's feeling that connection to everything yeah and we get to experience this life as this person only once all this one personality so we could talk about past lives and future lives, but you know what, this life, make the most of it right now. Like, what can you do that you're not doing? And then like many people at the end of their life say, you know, God, I wish I had more courage, you know, but the ego is so powerful and they never individuate. And it's really a calling. And I think what happens is if you don't,

something tragic will happen. Divorce or some lose a job or something will happen to shake your life up. So it's a calling for that individuation. So we all have it. Our soul's always going, hello, I'm down here. I'm right here. You're not paying attention. And you're looking out there for that security and safety. And it's always, it's always next to you right here in this moment. Yeah, that was another thing you said that I loved. You said taking responsibility for your mind. It takes a lot of courage because it takes a lot of courage to look at yourself morally. And it does. It does take a lot of courage. Young says there's just a lot of guilt that happens when you go through individuation.

Because when you finally wake up, you realize how much entangled you were with the ego and your conditioning, that you kind of look back and you're like, God, I wish I would have treated that person better. I would have been better in that relationship, or I could have acted differently. And we just kind of have this kind of, it's almost like we have to come to terms with all the stuff we did. And it's good to do it now versus when you die, you know, when you review your life and you're just like, ah, you can make amends for that. I'm sure they talk about that in AA about the making amends, right? Oh yeah. Well, and Shannon and I had mom guilt because we were so asleep with our oldest boys. We were so asleep, you know, and then time, time has me feeling guilty lately because I'm like,

why did it take me 45 years to wake the fuck up? Like, I lost so much time. And then I'm like, calm down, calm down. Well, for me, I was 41 and I realized my shadow about men. I was projecting on my father and I realized that I was the one who was avoiding intimacy. And I kept saying, he's the one, he's the one, he's the one. And when I realized it was me, I was like, a few weeks later, I met Rob. But I was thinking, why? I was 41. And I was like, I could have had kids.

I could have discovered this when I was 41. And I was like, I could have had kids. I could have discovered this when I was in my 20s. But I always feel like everything works out because if I didn't go have that experience, I couldn't teach and write my book that I wrote on love and understand the struggle. I think we all need to kind of wrestle with life and make mistakes because if you lived a perfect life, can you imagine the pressure to continue that perfection? You know, still okay. So I'm not afraid to mess up something in the future. You know, that's really what you have to get at with that guilt is that, you know what, I'm probably going to screw up again with my kids and that's okay. Right. Right. Yeah.

I mean, I feel like I'm still, you know, healing very deep things that are in, you know, we're in my subconscious that I didn't realize they're coming up at 45. And I'm like, wow, I didn't even know that was there. You know, you're going to be shedding things, I think, forever. So it's just a learning process. I mean, what happens when we actually figured it all out? I have no idea. We might like explode and blow up. Well, I think like after the job first is to realize how you're stuck and self-actualize, like work with your shadow. And the second part is what are you going to create now? Are you going to still, because I think a lot of, for me, I spent so much time looking in the past and trying to fix my past, trying to fix my past. I never thought of what do I want to create with my life? So I was 41 thinking, wait a minute, like, what do I want to do? And that's when I became a hypnotherapist and started living my passion. It does for me, it's just sharing that wisdom and knowledge with other people. Yeah. It's like now I want to, okay, that happened. Well, let's move forward. What do I want to create now? And so now you have a bigger okay, that happened. Well, let's move forward. What do I want to create now?

And so now you have a bigger responsibility. And after shadow work, they talk about manifestation and your thoughts create your life. That's when the real power is. The guardrails come off and things just show up very quickly, all good and bad. So if you're worried about something, it'll show up faster. If you're desiring something, it shows up faster. Things align easier. So true. I just said, I'm a proponent. It's like, desiring something, it shows up faster. Things align easier. So true.

I just said a proponent. It's like, do it, do it, do it. Well, and you are a perfect piece of that story as far as an example goes. I mean, look at what you've created. You and Rob have this beautiful, authentic, very informative podcast and YouTube channel in this amazing school that's helping people expand. I mean, good for you. I love the hope piece. That's the important piece to share with people is where you were and where you're at. I actually just talked to a friend of mine that was there from the beginning when I first started. And she said, I remember you at the pool. We were hanging out, drinking wine. And you were saying, I'm going to be famous.

I'm going to have this. I'm going to be having a successful business. I'm going to write a book. And she goes, and look at you. She said, I thought you were crazy back then. I thought, well, look at this girl. She's just talking up a storm. And I think if you knew me back then, you would say, it's like, I don't even recognize

myself. I was so shy. I would never be able to do an interview like this and be so comfortable. I mean, I was so shy and so insecure. Yeah. It's like, if I can do it, you can do it. I say that all the time because I really, truly believe that. I look back at myself and I'm like oh my god if I

can do it anybody can do this I mean really I mean effort we all have this within us it's just right there and nothing that happens you can stop you yeah and you get to decide and that choice is And now it's time for break that shit down. There's no excuse, nothing stopping you from having anything you want in life and having a full life, nothing, no outside force. And if you believe that, it's actually not believing, but knowing it, going from your intellectual understanding to in your heart, you'll be unstoppable. All the dreams that you have is the divine wanting to wish you to live that out for the divine in you. It's almost like an insult if you don't do it. It's like you have to do it. Yeah, you're a powerful woman. Oh, thank you. I got it. If you would have known me in my 20s, you'd be like, wow, that girl.

I just sometimes see my friends on Facebook must be like, what is Debra doing? Like she was such a mess. Yeah. And now look at you and your husband, strong force. I know. It really does feel like living a dream. I feel like I'm living a dream. When I was first started doing personal development, I always said, I want to do it.

I listened to Marianne Williamson and I'd love to do what she did or Wayne Dyer. And, you know, they were the big teachers back then. I was like, this would be so great. And if I wanted to do something, I was like, I wish I could just, you know, have enough money where I can go to workshops all day long and not have to go do a real job. And now I actually do. I go to workshops all day long, but I'm teaching it. So I created, it was already within me and it's already within everyone. Wow. That's see, that's the piece I love. That's what I love to hear and share with others. I mean, that is a powerful message. We even put limitations on our dreams. You are now not just going through these workshops as a student, you're teaching them. That is amazing. Congratulations. Yes. And if you're learning, you're born to be a teacher because you have to transmit that knowledge that you learn to others. It's your duty. So if you're loving learning about yourself, that's what you should be teaching.

So the child could people sign up? Where do they go? They can go to creativemindcoach.com. That's our page. And they could have a consultation with one of our, well, we have a enrollment coach there that they could talk to on the, over the phone, get all their questions answered. There's a free three video series, intro to Jungian coaching there. They could take the archetype test. What kind of life coach are you going to be? Yeah, it's really fun. Yeah. There's a lot of free content. They can look around, look at our podcast and you know, it's really interesting. It's the people that come to our training. They said, I looked everywhere. And

then I was like, I didn't think I could find something. And then I saw your thing and I was like, this is for me. And we know it. Every student that comes says, I just felt like I found my home. And then there's people that come and go, oh, wait, you're not going to talk about like executive coaching. It's like, no, that's not what we do. So there's plenty of trainings for other people, for other things. But our people, you know, it's kind of like you feel like that affinity to this work and you're ready to go deeper.

How long is the program? It's six months and it's all virtual right now because of COVID. We can't wait to do some more live trainings, hopefully in 2022. Yeah, it's all online and they get private coaching with it. Rob and I are very involved. So it's not like, oh, here a video from us and that's it. We're very, very much involved with our students. Yeah. So tell me the name of your podcast. It's Soul Sessions with Creative Mind. Highly suggest it to our listeners. I really enjoy watching you two. You guys vibe well together. And, you know, I went out on a limb contacting you guys. I was very attracted to what you're putting out. I appreciate it. I love your work and your emails that we get.

I just appreciate it. Thank you. Oh, thank you so much. It's so nice to hear. Sometimes it's hard to, you know, hear all the feedback. You wonder, am I making a difference? Are people understanding this? And do they like it?

And it's really nice. Thank you for the work you're doing to help others too. I want to honor that for you as well. You know, you're stepping into doing very important work. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for being with us today.

We hope you will come back next week. If you like what you hear, don't forget to rate, like, and subscribe. Thank you. We rise to lift you up. Thanks for listening.