Sense of Soul - Junkie to Judge Overcoming Addiction

Episode Date: September 2, 2024

Today in Sense of Soul we have author and recovery advocate Mary Beth O’Connor, former Federal Judge who shares her story of overcoming addiction to methamphetamine and becoming a recovery advocate. Clean and sober today for nearly three decades, she is proof that anyone can find their sober self, their best self, no matter how far they have fallen.  She is the author of the memoir, From Junkie to Judge: One Woman’s Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction, former federal judge Mary Beth O’Connor shares her three-phase journey to recovery. The riveting memoir details the abuse and trauma that drove Mary Beth to shoot methamphetamine at 17, the chaos from her addiction, and how she developed a personalized recovery plan, without a higher power, that led to twenty-nine years of sobriety thus far.   Mary Beth is a Board Member, Secretary, and Founding Investor for She Recovers Foundation. She is also a Director for LifeRing Secular Recovery and frequently develops relationships with other organizations, such as Women for Sobriety.    For more information, visit: https://junkietojudge.com, and follow her on Twitter at @MaryBethO_.  www.senseofsoulpodcast.com

Hello, my soul-seeking friends. It's Shanna. Thank you so much for listening to Sense of Soul podcast. Enlightening conversations with like-minded souls from around the world, sharing their journey of finding their light within, turning pain into purpose, and awakening to their true sense of soul. If you like what you hear, show me some love and rate, like, and subscribe. And consider becoming a Sense of Soul Patreon member, where you will get ad-free episodes, monthly circles, and much more. Now go grab your coffee, open your mind, heart, and soul. It's time to awaken. Today on Sense of Soul, we have a former federal judge, author, and recovery advocate, Mary Beth O'Connor. She's joining me today to share with us her inspiring story of overcoming addiction to methamphetamine and her journey to sobriety and becoming the author of the new memoir,

From Junkie to Judge, One Woman's Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction. And in her book, she shares the abuse and trauma that drove Mary Beth to become addicted to methamphetamine at 17 and the chaos from her addiction to recovery. She is proof that anyone can find their sober self, their best self, no matter how far they have fallen. Mary Beth is also the board member, secretary, and founder investor for SheRecovers Foundation. She is also the director for LifeRings Secular Recovery and frequently develops relationships with other organizations such as Women for Sobriety. She is both inspiring and very passionate, and it is my honor to have her with us today to share her story. So please welcome Ms. Mary Beth O'Connor. Nice to meet you. I'm

Shanna. Good to meet you as well. You know, on Sons of Soul, we have a lot of stories of pain to purpose because we grow through our struggles and the many lessons that, you know, we're hit with in life. It's true. I mean, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't want anyone to go through what I went through. But if it happens to you, you know, I mean, the pain took me down for a long time. But eventually, you know, I found my way out of it. And I try to use my story and what happened to me to be, you know, of service and use at this point.

So you do really, in the end, hopefully find a way to manage the pain in such a way that you're able to grow your way out of it. I mean, heal your way out of it is probably a better way of saying it. But yeah, and that's why the subtitle to the book is one woman's triumph, right over trauma and addiction, because I really wanted to emphasize that the triumph part of it. But yeah, for me, things started, my mother got pregnant with me in 1961. She was 19. And my biological father would not marry her. And this was a really big deal, a really big deal. And so the Catholic Church had this system set up where they pretended she was in Boston, but she was really at this unwed mother's home in Philadelphia that the church ran.

And so like they would route her mail through Boston so that everybody thought she was visiting an aunt or something. I forget what the story exactly was. So it was this whole system. And in fact, after I was born, my grandparents wouldn't let my mother bring me to the house. And so I lived at a convent with the nuns for the first six months of my life until my mother married a guy who became my sister's father and adopted me. So it was a very, as I say, it was, my story was challenging from the from from the womb, right? I was already, it was already trouble from consent. I felt so bad for your mom. And when I think about that, for women, especially back then,

that's just, it just hits my heart and just makes me sad you know so much shame and guilt yes yes and only on her right I'm sure like he walked away from it like with no consequences you know and so it's it was very different for the women very different for the women you're absolutely right wow I mean and even probably for your grandmother even probably she felt the shame and got that from you know know, the community, which is so sad. Yes. And I mean, they were generally frustrated with my mother in any way. Yeah.

She had some bad, she made some bad choices in general. But yeah, so and it's also interesting because that was left at this at the convent. And even under my mother's version she visited me maybe once or twice a week right which if that's what she says it might have actually been less um and so when my husband first met me he said that I reminded him of the monkeys who didn't get touched enough when they were babies so like I'm sure the nuns fed me and clothed me and changed me but I there was um I think there was a lack of physical touch and definitely a lack of bonding with my mother, including once I moved in with her, she just wasn't, she wasn't focused

on me, like I wasn't a priority. She didn't ask how my day went or what happened at school. And if you're trying to tell her most of the time, she would brush you off. So even though I can talk, I will talk about the abuse. But really really there's a core that started before that. There's sort of a core hole, you know, that started from when I was born and I wasn't with my family. And even when I was with my mom, I didn't get that sort of motherly connection. Which they've proved to be so important. Yeah. That is so sad.

And they've done studies and the one study that how when they put it was with I think gorillas where they put a, you know, that they put one with a fake gorilla. Yeah, and then one with a real one. And that just that's so sad, too. Yes, that's right. There's that picture on mine. It's like a stick with clothes a fur on it for the for the poor little baby to hang on to and yes yes yeah yeah yeah and nowadays I mean they wanted the touch they want the skin to skin like at the hospital it was important for them to like put skin to skin like right away and I don't remember that with my first one, maybe not. Well, my second one was taken away really quick. So definitely wasn't so but I do remember that, you know how things change. Right. And I mean, you know, for me, my mother also could be violent. And so you add that into

the mix. And it just made things, you know, even worse, it was just the sense of being alone. And I'll tell you when it really showed the when the consequences of that really showed up, it was when we moved in with my stepfather when I was nine, because he was really violent with my mother, and he was physically and sexually violent with me. And part of it was that I knew my mother wasn't there for me, you know, so when it got worse, I knew that I was on my own and that I really had nowhere to turn. And I also, as the oldest, because I had a sister two years younger, and then my mother, my stepfather had my brother who was nine years younger, because my mother wasn't doing the role, I felt that I

needed to sort of watch out for them and do what I could to protect them. And I think that was partly just, you know, the older child tends to do that. But also, I felt like there was no parent who was doing it. And so it sort of put extra pressure on me to try to care for young ones when I was also very young myself. Oh, nine, you know, and they also say that you can experience PTSD, even from the womb, right? I mean, when I got sober, I was correctly diagnosed with PTSD. I didn't know you could have PTSD if you weren't a war vet. Like I didn't even know that was an option. And for me, it was severe anxiety. But I will say even as a child, I had some OCD like tendencies, even before my stepfather. And I think it was because that sense of being alone, like I used to have counting behaviors. And if things didn't come out with odd numbers, it would create stress for me, I needed everything to come out odd. And then when my when

my brother was a baby, and we were living with my, you know, crazy stepfather, I got behaviors like I had a hairbrush set a brush, a comb and a mirror. And I and if I was using them, I had to lay them down in a certain order. Or I felt like something bad was going to happen to my brother. Like I would panic. Oh my God, I made a mistake. I didn't put them in the right order. You were trying to control everything. Yes. It was a need to control and I was developing. Luckily it didn't go further than that, but what it turned into mostly was anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. Which, how do you know what anxiety is? You know what I mean? I had anxiety pretty much my whole life. But at 18, I remember calling and telling someone, it was a good friend of mine.

I said, sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and I can't breathe. I feel like I'm going to have a heart attack. Do you mind if I call you? Because we started talking late at night. There was no word for it though, for me yet. And no one had ever asked me how I felt. So you see, that's part of it is that we don't really understand it when we're young until we find someone usually until we find someone who can help us process it correctly. Yeah, someone else who has it. Or a professional, right? Or so. And for me, how it showed up was that I was always afraid that I mean, terrified that like one little mistake and everything was going to blow up in my face. So even when I got sober from my, you know, 20 year basically meth addiction, even when I was doing the right thing, I would always be afraid that if I made one little mistake, I was going to lose it all.

And I would just I would just spin and spin and spin with these like really often imagined mistakes. I used to sometimes when I got home from work between work and driving home, I would be going through the day and think of all the things that in my mind I had done wrong. And I was trying to, you know, figure out what I was going to say the next day when I when my boss was ready to fire me for it. And so I would leave myself voicemails with these explanations. And so I would leave myself voicemails with these explanations. And sometimes I would go to work, and I would check my voicemail, and there would be like eight voicemails from me. I mean, and it was crazy. And in the light of day, I could see, okay, this is disproportionate, right? This is not based on reality. But in the moment that

anxiety built up so much that I couldn't see it. I just got sucked down into the deep emotional fear of it. I remember for the longest time, I just wanted to numb and not feel this. I didn't care how it went away. I just wanted to go away. Right. And that's why substance use disorder, which is the modern term for addiction, that's why the odds of developing a son are much higher for people with trauma histories and or people with mental health disorders. Because we have that need to try to self medicate, we're not able to ask for what we need, or the adults around us don't see it, or they ignore it. And so we do what we can. And for many of us that is covering things up with substances. And that's, that's what led me to it.

I mean, the first drug I had, I was 12. And it was alcohol, Boone's Farm Strawberry Hill Wine. Oh, me too. I love that. Yes, I remember that. Yes. And what I noticed was that the weight, it felt like a weight was off my shoulder, like I could take a deep breath, Like I was lighter and giggling with my girlfriend and considering the high anxiety and clenched state I had lived in for so long, that was like a miracle to me. Like, oh my gosh, this is great. I need more, more, more. And that's how it started. And that's just a common combination. You know, the trauma, the anxiety or depression and stress, and then finding a substance. And in the beginning, in the beginning, it works.

Right. It's really just temporary. Like even if you take a prescription for it, unless you're actually working through the trauma to really get to the root of why it's still going to be there. Right. It was temporary, but at the moment, temporary was better than never. But you're right. Later I was on mental health meds, but I was also in therapy. And so I was on the anti-anxiety meds for about three years. And then I was able to taper off. But, and then for me, you know, the alcohol was sort of just that first step, right? I mean, I added in weed, I did pills. I did a lot of acid my sophomore year of high school. And when I was 16, I found methamphetamine. And that became my drug of choice. And I was shooting up in six months at 17, full bore addiction in high school.

And so it was a really fast escalation for me. Oh, my God, that's so scary. It can happen to anybody. And you know, most of the people I have so many addicts in my life and, you know, I've seen them struggle. My best friend, Mandy, who used to be a co-host of Sense of Soul podcast has been very vulnerable about her story. need help to and need to realize that you actually can still be in a relationship with these people. You just have to learn how to be healthy yourself. You're right. If the person with the substance use disorder has loving and supportive friends and family, their odds of success are higher. Yeah. And the other thing out, Al-Anon is helpful for some people, but for others, it's too tough love focused, which really isn't the best evidence approach right now. And so there are other alternatives, just so your listeners, your viewers know for friends and family, there's Al-Anon, of course,

that's the 12 step version. Life Ring has friends and family, Smart Recovery has friends and family, Hazelden has friends and family, and they approach it differently. And the other thing to know is, you know, today, there's the new technique, which is craft community reinforcement and family training. That's a positive reinforcement technique for friends and family. And there's a really good book that goes into this in a lot of detail. It's called beyond addiction. And I always recommend that for friends and family. It's a book and there's also a workbook. And one of the good things that it does is it does explain some of the science of substance use disorder, including why it's difficult to change. It talks about the challenges of all changing of habits, right? How

we all struggle with getting more exercise or losing weight or whatever. And it uses those kind of explanations for the family to understand why the person can't usually can't just stop. But it also goes through what the friends and family can do on the positive reinforcement side. But at the same time, it explains how it's actually not their responsibility, which is twofold. One is to help them release some of their own emotional stress. But the other is also not try to force the person with the substance use disorder to do the treatment program that the family or friend thinks is best. In other words, I needed to be in charge of my recovery. And sometimes friends and family gets so understandably so high energy that they want to force like you got to do it this way, because I you know, I read about this, or I heard this was best. And it's really the person with the substance use disorder needs to be the decision maker. But friends and family can have a positive impact. And Beyond Addiction is a really excellent book, right? Because otherwise, they have probably a higher chance of relapsing if it's not their decision. Or it won't succeed, it won't be successful. And it can create an alienation,

because you're trying to shove something down their throat that they don't think is right for them. You know, and so there's a lot I mean, when I went into rehab, I was told that the only option was the 12 step way. And you know, 12 steps, of course, alcoholics, anonymous narcotics, and those that those programs fit many, but they also don't fit many others. And the problem wasn't that they were offering it to me as an option. The problem is when you tell people it's the only way, which isn't true. And actually 12 Steps isn't even better. The other peer support programs are equally effective. And so for me, what I actually ended up doing was taking control of my recovery and making

decisions about what was going to be in my plan. But I had to sort of do it on the download, because all the experts were telling me I was doing it wrong. I mean, they literally told me you will fail if you don't do 12 steps, you will fail. And I said, but it's not gonna work for me. And I gave him like five reasons. But in the end, the good news is there are other peer support groups, Life Ring, Secular Recovery, Women for Sobriety, She Recovers, others. There is more than one pathway forward. And for me, all I ever care about is making sure people know they have choices so they can find the right fit. Because if they find the right fit, they're going to be more likely to succeed.

Oh, I love that. You know, I've had on people who are using some pretty advanced things like, wow, you know, some of the treatment, you know, we're evolving as a species. And sometimes these things that were created back in, you know, early 1900s or before or after, you know, sometimes they don't understand where we are today and what challenges that we have, like social media and the accessibility and all of the things that they didn't have to deal with. So of course we have to evolve a little bit. Yeah, that's true. I mean, and the other thing is that, you know, at one point there wasn't any other option, but now there is. And I just had 30 years of sobriety, like a week and a half ago. Thank you. But even in 1994, there were other options.

And so sometimes we get locked into thinking that things are one way when they're really not. But yeah, I mean, for example, a lot of people today are more interested into like meditation as part of their recovery or yoga. That's for everyone. Yeah. Yeah. like meditation as part of their recovery or yoga for everyone. Yeah, yeah. I mean, new ideas that really weren't around in the 1930s in America, you know, and for a lot of people that that can that can really bolster their recovery, just like faith can give them a stronger, you know, can help. But so can that mindfulness techniques, you know, being in touch and quieting your mind and all of those things can help with sobriety. I love that.

I don't want to go political, but I must say that I am very inspired by like Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s story, how he was an addict and he's very vulnerable about his story. I feel like that's what the world needs because I think that oftentimes you think you're in it alone. And so when you hear other people sharing their story like you are and like he is, I think it really is. But, you know, you're a judge. He's, you know, a Kennedy, whatever. You know, you're like, oh, man, you know him, too. He's not carrying around shame. He's overcome this.

Well, I mean, it's interesting, because the substance use disorder is characterized as a mental health disorder, right? It's in them, right? Just like anxiety disorders are in the DSM and depressive disorders. And the government, our federal government, and pretty much every state defines it as a disease. And yet, there's still a lot of stigma around it. It's the most stigmatized medical condition that there is. We, we expect that that shows up in bad ways, not just the judgment, which can make it make it harder for people to admit they have a problem when it's a stigmatized condition. But it can also impact things like we the way they're treated in the medical community. I mean, for example, even there's a lot of studies showing even medical doctors stigmatize people with a substance use disorder, and they're doctors,

right? And they can be an impact how they're treated in the emergency room if they're having problems. And it can, it also has different sort of bars expectations, like, if you are not 100% abstinent from day one, right? if you're not perfect in your recovery, then you're judged and blamed in a way that people who aren't perfect in managing their diabetes, or who aren't perfect in managing their high blood pressure, they're not judged in the same way. And so yeah, that stigma plays out in a lot of different ways. My best friend Mandy can totally contest to this. I mean, she had 11 years of sobriety, almost 12 or something like that. And she falls the wagon.

You know, I just kept telling her, dude, you still have 11 years of sobriety. You don't lose that. But I think that certain programs on all of them, but yeah. Right. You're back to day one. And I will say a couple of things. You're right. You are never back to day one because you have learned things. Even if you only had 10 days sober, you learn something in those 10 days. Certainly if you have a year sober or 11 years sober, you have a lot of skills and a lot of knowledge and a lot of understanding and experience being sober that you didn't have on day one. So it's to me, it's ridiculous to say you're at day one. Do you have if you want to count continuous sobriety? Okay, maybe you're on day one,

I like that you is sobriety, but not nothing else. It can create a struggle for people, it can make it harder for them to admit that they had a slip and they need sort of to double down on their efforts and refocus right so that that gets under control quickly. I mean, because there's certainly a difference between a five year relapse and a five day relapse, right? I mean, you know, just because you had a slip doesn't mean you can't, you shouldn't make it as short as possible. But also even tracking time, like in life ring, we don't, we don't really require our members to track time. And one of the reasons is that for some people, it's helpful. It's like a success. Yeah, you know, I just had 90 days, and that's great. It builds them they're counting it that way I have to, you know, and that can get demoralizing. And so for us, and what I always talk about is, whatever tools or techniques you're using, or other people use, I think it's important to

view them as suggestions. And you have to look at is that tool or that techniques helping me, and if it's not helping you don't do it. And if it helped you at one point, but it's no longer helping you stop doing it. You know, it's not. I mean, for the for example, when I first got sober, I was taught that I was to introduce myself at a meeting. I'm Mary Beth, and I'm an addict. And in the beginning, I thought it was important. I thought I sort of needed to beat it in my brain. You know, I said it over and over and over again. By about six months, I was really not comfortable anymore because I felt like I was saying it as if it was the essence of who I was, as if it's the most important thing about me.

And it isn't. And it wasn't. Not even then. And so at six months, I found my first option to 12 steps, which was women for sobriety, which still exists. And you know, WFS meeting, the introduction, it's I'm Mary Beth, and I'm a competent woman. Oh, I can't wait till Mandy hears this. And I always said that, like, wait, why don't you just tell people you're in recovery? Like, why does it have to be that you're an addict right now when you haven't in 30 years or whatever it would be?

Right. And there's a big discussion about that, right? So the competent woman thing just made me feel like I could stand tall. You know what I mean? Like, it was empowering. But you're right. There is a discussion about, like, for example, I have 30 years. Am I just in recovery or am I recovered?

I mean, in the good news that I don't think a lot of people realize is once you hit five years of continuous sobriety, your odds of ever picking up again are only 15 percent. And so for most of us that after five years, we don't ever pick up. I mean, 15 percent is still real people that we need to be concerned about, but it's nowhere near the majority. And I feel myself not recovered in the sense that I could use again. I mean, I think that some people, the data shows some people on the more mild level of substance use disorder actually can after a break, moderate, but I was at the very severe end. I mean, I used meth basically for 20 years, and I shot meth pretty much, you know, most of that time and almost daily. So I don't

view it as safe for me to ever use substances, including alcohol. I don't think I think that's a risky slope for me. And also, it's not important. Like, why would I risk everything I've I've built, you know, for that? But am I recovered? I'm recovered in the sense that I find it highly unlikely that I will ever have an active substance use disorder again. But I also don't view myself as being able to safely consume mood altering substances, except for like medical treatment in very small doses for very short periods of time.

I haven't drank. And I did this because of my best friend, Mandy. And I did this also for my partner and other people around me who are addicts. And so I haven't drank anything since 2011. Just have no desire to. But you know, it does remove you from certain people. I don't want to hang out with some people sometimes because that's all they do. I really did make that decision, not just for them, but for me and for my children that I could show them that you can still have fun, still be social and all these things and not be trashed. See, that's really, I mean, it's really good because it's as many more people today

are choosing not to drink or to drink very rarely by choice, not because they have a problem with it, but by for their healthy lifestyle to be their best self. And the other thing is that the data shows that even moderate alcohol consumption has health consequences. So for women is one drink a day. And for men, it's two. But even at moderate consumption, there's an increased cancer risk, especially breast cancer for women has a significantly increased risk, even with moderate drinking, you have increased liver problems, one drink a day raises your blood pressure, as well as a higher risk of heart problems. And so on top of which when people if they're drinking regularly, one of the things I always recommend is that they notice if there's any kind of a pattern, like are you drinking, or feel compelled to drink when

you're upset, or when you're stressed? Or are you using it as short term relief, when you really actually need to address the longer term problem, you know, and that can create sort of a bad cycle. Every time you come home from work, and you're, you're feeling anxious about work you drink? Well, that's the short term solution, but it's not addressing, is this the right job for me? Are there things that I can do to make my work life better or any of the other things? And similarly, if it's like every time you fight with your husband, look, if that's once every three months, no problem. But if it's on a regular basis, there's a bigger issue that needs to be addressed that the alcohol is not going to. Right. There's something underlying, but you know what else is funny? You know, what kind of drunk I was that I would, every time I drank, it'd be fun and all that. And all of a sudden, by the end of the night, I'm crying, right? Something wants to come out because something needs that space for healing. But I mean, I didn't even realize that until just now. But that's definitely the kind of drunk I was.

Well, I will say that everyone thinks they're much more interesting drunk than they actually are. You know, like when other people are drunk, it's like, oh, man, this is boring. Yeah, it is boring. It's just true. It's actually kind of fun sober sitting back and watching everybody drunk too. It's like, oh Lord, this is crazy. It makes me want to stay sober. But living in San Francisco, I've seen some of the videos of the city, which is so sad. This fentanyl is a real issue. And, you know, I've had so many friends that have lost their children. So sad. Yeah, I mean, looks what's shown on some news stations

of San Francisco is actually like a four block part of San Francisco. It's not. Okay, thank God. Thank God. But don't get me wrong. I mean, like all major cities, and really all communities, there is a significant problem and it has gotten worse because of the fentanyl. I mean, it used to be that almost everyone who died of an overdose was a long term substance person using the drug, usually heroin long term. And that's still the majority, but a much higher percentage of the people who are dying are casual users. And they don't even know they're taking fentanyl. They kids who are college people who bought, you know, Oxy or Percocet, they thought over the internet or from the guy down the street, and it's really not, it's fentanyl.

And so there's a couple things about that. One is that, I mean, first of all, realize the number one cause of death in America in the 18 to 35 age group is overdose. I mean, that's a really shocking statistic. When I talk with especially with people who have children who are teens or 20 somethings, I highly recommend that they have Narcan in the house. Narcan is an opiate overdose reversal drug, you spray up their nose, and it sort of kicks the opiates off the opiate receptor and revives them. And if you make a mistake, and they're not actually having an opiate overdose, it doesn't hurt them. Okay. So the because, you know, it is often the teens and 20s. And it's, and if they're not using on a regular basis, the parents may not have any clues, right? It's not like when their child has a problem, they will eventually see signs.

But if it's the fifth time your child uses, you may be completely unaware. Absolutely. Also, it might not be your child. It could be their friend who comes over, right? And is under the influence. And so Narcan is often community organizations give it away free. But also about six months ago, it was taken off the influence. And so Narcan is often community organizations give it away free, but also about six months ago, it was taken off the list, you don't have to have a prescription anymore. So you can go to your local pharmacy for about $50, you can get Narcan and some even cover it. And so I mean, we don't use drugs, and we have Narcan in the house. And

just in case people have it in their car. There was a woman once hung over from me. She saved a 17-year-old boy who was overdosing in the park because she had Narcan in her car. Oh, my God. Okay. So I'm writing that down. This is such great advice. And it's so sad that we need to have Narcan in our house. But that's just what we're faced with.

We can't just pretend it's not happening. And you're right. It could happen one time. Your kid for the first time tries it. You never know. And like you said, it was, you know, kids taking what they thought ask you about was how did you become a judge? So, you know, you're all this time, you know, on drugs. And how did you get sober and move into, you know, that? I mean, I was 32 when I got sober. So, you know, I started at 12. It was a long haul.

I had gone graduated from Berkeley for college because I did better for the first three and a half years of college. And I always say better and good are two different words. But I did better. But I had a really, a really life threatening kidnapping by three men and raped for six hours. And then I moved in with a violent boyfriend. And so I sort of lost what little grip I had. And in January of my senior year of college, I started using meth again, on a pretty much daily basis. And I didn't get sober for 10 more years. I mean, it was a long haul. But when I got sober, for talking about the professional side, I mean, I had to deal with my I went to therapy for my trauma and all that. And I, you know, did a lot of things for my sobriety.

But professionally, I say I had worked my way down the corporate ladder down. Because I couldn't hold a job, I had a burka degree and good grades, but I couldn't get there. And so every job was like less money for less responsibility. And so when I got sober, I had this embarrassing resume. I mean, it was horrible. And I was also really raw from, you know, trying to be sober and all my emotions and my pain was coming up. And so my first job when I got home from rehab was a part time temporary low level admin job, because it's all I was really ready for, for me to get up and go to work on time, every day and stay all the hours that I was supposed to be there and do a good job and do it the next day. And the next I was 32. And I had never done it in my life. Like

I needed to get that habit underneath me, I needed to get practice. My second job was a full time permanent mid level administrative job. And then my third job was a supervisory job at a larger company where I got a promotion. And then at six and a half years sober, I went to Berkeley Law School. And then I worked at a big law firm. Then I worked for the federal government doing class action work. Mostly I led big class action cases. And then in 2014, when I was 20 years sober, I was appointed a federal administrative law judge. And I retired from that now. But that I mean, I like to use that as an example, including for friends and families about, you know, you have to really start where you are, and move forward from there,

right? Like, what's sort of the right next step? What am I actually able to accomplish today, sometimes people get in trouble when they try to leap ahead too fast. And so it was a progression. I did not get sober thinking I'll be a judge one day. I got sober. I thought maybe I won't get fired again. Yeah, that's more reasonable. I mean, what were you like as a judge? Because I tell you, you know, you have, for instance, a doctor who had this symptom before, and so they understand and they treat it differently. Yeah, I mean, I definitely understood what addiction is. I understood it as a as a brain disorder, understood it as a meta. And I understood

how hard it can be to break. And also a lot of the people I could see in their record, because I mostly did disability cases, I could see from like their mental health treatment records, they usually were similar to me in other ways to child abuse history, sexual assault history, domestic violence history, right, that was usually there as well as their addiction. And so I could see all that now, I had to apply the law, I wasn't a lawmaker, right? I mean, I was a judge who's supposed to follow the law. So I did. But at the same time, I wasn't making unfair negative inferences because they had this mental health condition. And I wasn't berating them or those kind of things. I got in, I got the information that I needed. And I applied the law that I needed to apply. But I definitely saw people with very similar histories to mine.

Yeah, yeah, that's so interesting. You know, to be on the flip side, I mean, well, I don't know, you didn't mention that you ever got in trouble with the law. But you know, I imagine that you're running from the law often, hoping to not get pulled over by the law. Well, I mean, I did get arrested once right out of high school when I was 18, the summer between high school and college, and actually to put put college off a year I was arrested with meth and hypodermic. But you know, it was a small town. And they knew that I didn't have like a juvenile record. I mean, it probably would have been sealed, but it's a small town, they would have known, right? They knew it was the first time I was arrested. I was a top student, I've been in the paper for like

having the highest SAT score in my class, I was accepted to go to college, you know, a very good school. So they treated me very lightly. And I was allowed to go to college a year later, even though I was still in probation. And I was and I they told I was allowed to expunge my record a couple years later. All right. So obviously, you had no brain damage from all the math you did. Well, I will say when I was in rehab, we took these like vocational assessments. And one of them was an IQ test. And my IQ is basically the same as it had been in high school. And I was like, phew. Wow. Okay. I was relieved because you do worry about that. You know, you do worry. I was studying recently that MKUltra, you know, the CIA classified files on the experiments they did, you know, with giving, you know, your generation really asset. And it just breaks me because

there are so many people who are homeless right now. And I don't think that all of them are immigrants here in Colorado. They're starting to be, but but you know, I mean, there's a lot of them who have both mental and substance abuse. It's so sad. Yeah. I mean, you know, in San Francisco, for example, one of the reasons we have the homeless population that we do is because the cost of living is ridiculously high. Oh, sure. So that's exactly when it went up. I mean, but you're right. A lot of the people have a mental health disorder. It's actually about 40% of the people that are homeless that have a substance use disorder today didn't have one when they got homeless, they developed it later. The other group in the homelessness camp that we underestimate is there are a lot of domestic violence victims in the

homeless camp, because that can really set you on a slippery financial slope when you leave your abuser. And so one of the problems I have with the way we approach substance use disorder, including the judgment is we in America, we act like everybody who wants treatment can get it. And it's just not true. I mean, if you don't have money, in a large part of the country, you cannot access treatment, it doesn't exist for you, Or you got to get on a waitlist and wait, like, you know, I when I got several, I had, I was on a waitlist for 10 weeks, I had to call every month because I didn't have any money. And I didn't have insurance,

I had to call every Monday between nine and noon to keep my name moving up the waitlist. And if I would have missed a Monday, I would drop back to the bottom again, make it so hard and make it really hard when we act like there's treatment on demand, and there isn't treatment on demand for many people. And so on one hand, we're judging them as if well, you could just get sober anytime you want. And then we don't provide the resources for that to happen. Even San Francisco, they actually passed a proposition, I think five years ago, for treatment on demand, and we still don't they still don't have it. And so it's just true in a lot of the country. And that's part of the reason that harm reduction is important,

because we don't have treatment for everyone. But also some people aren't ready. I mean, the reality is not everyone's ready. But even when they're ready, we don't we don't have it, and we need to and so things like Narcan and syringe services programs where you you know, can get clean needles, which by the way, I used the needle exchange my last few years of shooting math, those kind of things are to help people stay alive, but also to help them not like get HIV or hep C or things that are going to have long term health consequences. And so that when they're ready, when I got sober, in part, because I use the needle exchange, I didn't have HIV, I didn't have hep C, I didn't have any of the bloodborne diseases, all those things are like additional obstacles to getting your life under control, even when you do get sober.

Man, maybe those prayers those nuns were giving you and your baby worked. You are right, it was partly luck. I mean, it was partly luck. But it was also that the last three years I was able to get clean needles. And, and that really does make a difference. So when you hear about somewhere that they have no law against drugs. So if you're talking about so there's no where that has no law against all drug, but there's decriminalization. And that's different. portugal is the is the main example of decriminalization portugal decriminalized all drugs personal use in the 90s um and what they did was they took the money that was being used to incarcerate people and they actually put it

into treatment and they also put it into services like like to help people get a job when they got sober to help them, you know, mental health treatment, in addition to their substance use, they did it as a sort of what we would call wraparound services. Okay. And when Portugal did that, their rate of drug use actually dropped, their crime rate dropped, the, you know, using drugs in the street, basically, you know, almost went away. And so and then even now with the like Europe hasn't been hit with fentanyl quite as bad as the US yet. But their, their rate of their overdose death rate is going up. But even though portugals has gone up, it's gone up a lot less

than the rest of Europe. And so it was all a positive package. But here in Colorado, of course, you know, it's all weed mushrooms and I actually do microdose. I find it to be very helpful because I have ADHD. It actually helps me. But I mean, we're talking like such a small amount. You would never know. Well, a couple of things. One is yes. They, I mean, the good news now is that they're actually doing more research on things like what does cannabis help with and hurt with and what to do psychedelics. What are the possible uses like PTSD and some other mental health conditions, it looks like they might help in a controlled environment, you know, with the right dosage and guided by a therapist and all that positive things. But I will say on

the criminalization side, that criminalizing never helps, because the person with a substance use disorder isn't getting help by getting thrown in jail or having criminal charges on their record, right? It hurts. And so what happens is in America, well, first of all, here's why I support decriminalization for personal use. Number one, we admit that substance use disorder is a disease, and yet we're criminalizing it. Well, that's a contradiction. Okay, true. We have about a half a million people in jail today in the US just for possession, not for any other related crimes, just for possession. And part of what that does is it destroys their employment opportunities, it makes them not eligible for certain housing benefits, other public health. Exactly. And on top of that, we have a very large racial disparity in the US and how we enforce our drug laws. So

whites and people of color use drugs at very similar rates. But if you're an African American, for example, your odds of getting arrested and convicted for the same drug offense is three to four times as high as if you're white. And so it's got so for all of those reasons, I do support to criminalization. And the other thing is, it costs three to four times as much to incarcerate one person as to treat them. You could treat three or four people for the same money. No way. Yes. Yes. Oh, that blows my mind. That's terrible. So it's lose, lose. I mean, society loses, the individual loses this, this is a functional system. And so families lose this. Everybody

loses everybody. Oh yeah. It makes no sense. No, it doesn't make any sense. It's just damaging on every level, including its poor use of your tax dollars. Dang, so bad. I remember hearing that there was a man in Louisiana. I remember listening to a story or reading it. He was in jail for life over marijuana. Yeah. And it was not even a lot. Yeah. Well, you know, three strikes laws were catching a lot of people with possession, right? Because a lot of times those three strikes laws where you get 25 to life or something similar to that, they didn't care what the what the strike was. It wasn't it. those were often sold as if we're going to get these repeat violent criminals but for a lot of them it was any crime so people were

getting third strikes for marijuana possession they were getting third strikes for stealing 25 worth of video from walmart i mean so yeah and then they had tents outside right of the prison because they can't even put all of the criminals in, you know, and house them. There's no, absolutely insane. Our system is so broken. And so you being a judge, I'm sure you saw this more than anyone, which no one ever wants to talk about that.

If they're on that side, you know, they want to defend it, you know, in many ways. It is, it is unfortunate. I will say that we were moved.

I mean, California of course is further along than some other states. Colorado is more progressive as well. But federally, we were starting to move towards more harm reduction. And they, for example, they, they, a lot of people who had just marijuana possession that federally, they got those wiped out recently and or they were released. And so we are moving in a positive direction. But one of the negatives that's happening is because fentanyl is scaring people, the sort of the tough on crime approach, they're using it as an excuse to increase penalties again. When increasing the penalties doesn't actually make anyone safer. It doesn't reduce drug use. In fact, there are studies that show that states that have the harshest possession penalties, and states who have the most liberal, the states with the harshest don't have a lower drug use rate. In fact, sometimes they have a higher one. And so but the higher one is probably for other reasons, like economic reasons, you know, things along those lines, but it doesn't help. And plus, we've tried

criminalizing drugs for the last 50 years. And look where we are, we had more overdose deaths last year than any year in our history. So it's not a successful strategy. And look, there's a difference between going after the suppliers, you know, the sort of the high end people and the people who are using drugs for personal use. I think we can distinguish those two groups. And it's the people who are being convicted. And look, and if you're high or drunk, and you beat someone up, you got to deal with the assault. Like, you know, that's a separate crime, but pure possession. To me, this is a lose lose approach. Oh, my God. And you're so right. And where are we spending most of the money to go after or to help? business. There you go. Right. You failed, you failed every year, you feel more. And so you know,

it's like, let's, let's acknowledge this. Let's do it from a public health policy. Let's say they need to go through your through the program. That's right. Figure out what's wrong. I mean, if they're going after the top, you know, the people importing it and things, that's an appropriate thing for them to do. But the reality is that we we would be better off, I believe, if we took those same monies, not just for treatment, but for wraparound services, like Portugal does getting people housed, getting people to have employment opportunities when they get sober, getting people to, they often need help with dealing with other medical issues as well, not just their substance use disorder, mental health, or physical, I mean, you know, they may need a, you know, heart surgery, or who knows what else? I mean, there's a lot

of things that need to be evaluated when somebody gets sober. So you can't just judge that they're all, you know, just in the same in this situation, all the same way. Right, right. They're not, they're not. I mean, there are some patterns, but you need to look at them. What does this individual need? Where is this person starting from? And where do I need to help them move forward? Sort of like when I got sober, I didn't, you know, I had to be realistic about where I was in order to build a plan to move forward. Right? I mean, you have to acknowledge where you, where the person is starting from in order to build an effective plan to help them move forward. Wow. You know, I have a 20-year-old who is on the spectrum. And there's not a whole lot of people coming to me telling me,

oh, here's all the resources for your child on the spectrum. Never was. These are all things that I had to, maybe one friend told me. And I'm like, oh, really? They have that thing? And then, you know, I mean, it's always word of mouth. I've never, ever had any direction with him. But like as an adult, it freaked me out because I didn't know the things that I needed to do. And as my child is now an

adult, he could go to jail. He could go to jail for stuff, you know, and he doesn't even understand that. So what's interesting is I was, there's this program here where they actually will pay me to take care of my son. And at first I was like, why would you pay me? I'm going to do the same things. You know, whether you pay me or not, they said, but if we pay you, then that means that he'll have a better chance of not ending up in, in a system on the streets, you know, having to be hospitalized for their institutionalized. And I think that that's beautiful, but not many people know the resources that are out there that can help them. And that's sad. You're right. And it's not just, you know, autism, it's all mental health conditions,

it can be really hard to get proper mental health treatment for children. And sometimes people say to me, what's the number one thing we can do to reduce the rate of substance use disorder, which by the way, in America, it's one of the highest in the world. And my answer to them, one thing is proper mental health treatment for children. Because if we got children evaluated, and they got there, if they need meds, they get meds, if they need, you know, therapy, if we're autistic kids, there are specific techniques that can help them learn better and stabilize. If all those things happen in childhood, their odds of developing a substance

use disorder later, or even of just having an uncontrolled mental health issue that's causing, as you say, maybe they're going to act out and get in a fight with a cop who tries to talk to them and they end up in jail or whatever. Okay. Elisha McLean here. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Exactly. Exactly right. And so you're right. I mean, it's a big gaping hole. And again, in the long run, it's cheaper for us to address these things early to let them go. Absolutely. And here's the thing you, as a parent, do you know my times I've had to fight for certain things? I just got my daughter on a 504. She's probably needed a 504 since she was very little, but finally, thank God, because I've already experienced, I, you know, I advocated for her, but I think that if I didn't already know, then she would have gotten just lost

in it. You know, it's would have gotten just lost in it. You know, it's so important that we do all of these things for our kids when it comes to, you know, school. But they're missing the, like, most important thing, that evaluation. Yeah. And, I mean, teachers, you know, should notice. And sometimes even when they do, it's not followed up on. But you're right. If there's any sense of a problem, or just test everybody from the beginning, you know should notice and sometimes even when they do it's not followed up on but you're right if there's any sense of a problem they or just test everybody from the beginning you know it's their stupid shit right they're making him take tests on all this state funded

fill in those little dots with your number two pencil which only stresses them out even more when they're not even really truly trying to get to know where they're at mentally. Right. You know, not just, you know, what they've learned. I mean, I think sometimes what if I would, what if my high level of anxiety would have been dealt with when I was a kid, even if, even if I wouldn't have been taken out of that abusive household, although that would have been good, you know, good, but even, you know, learning better skills for anxiety management, you know, like they teach kids mindfulness now sometimes, I mean, there are ways to help. And so very good.

Yes, would it have been different, you know, but certainly the odds of the child exiting teenage years successfully with a strong foundation is something we should all be, you know, working for and willing to use our tax dollars for because in the long run, again, it's better for the individual, and it's better for the society, and it's going to be cheaper. Yes, and you're going to have less people lost. And you know, they say one and two children have anxiety right now, since COVID. That means one and two can get a 504. And you know what, maybe if everyone decides to go and support their kids and get a 504, then maybe instead of having to do that, they'll just

change the system and support these kids. Right. My cousin was in, at her school, they taught them mindfulness from like first grade or something. And she's, and she, and anxiety does run in our family. And she said it did help her have techniques, you know, to help manage it better. Because it was just sort of presented, it was sort of like their, you know, like, instead of like, we used to take a nap in school, I don't think they anymore. But they would teach them how to, you know, how to how to manage their emotions, you know, and that and learning how to regulate your emotions is a really important skill. And that skill alone will get you through a lot.

Wow. Even prayer, right? That's true. I mean, prayer is a meditation. It's like a meditation. It has the same, I think, you know, biological impact of meditating prayer. You're right. Prayer is effective as well.

Yeah. You know, now they go into school and the first thing they do after they do the Pledge of Allegiance is they watch the news for 10 minutes. Oh. And not only do they have to watch the news, they have to find similarities. They have to really pay attention because they have all these questions they have to answer about the news. And I'm like, I don't even watch the news. It's toxic. You know, and that's the first thing they have to do every day. Well, I hope that they're picking which news to show them. They're just not randomly turning it off. You know, that news is either one side or the other too. Right. So it's interesting.

I mean, there are stories I could see sharing with kids, but there's other stories. Yeah. We don't want, you know, it's a kid, it's a kid news, you know, I guess, you know, it's designed for school, but still. But you know, what's funny is when I first got off my meds and I started therapy, the first thing they suggested was mindfulness. And I had never even heard of it. And I was like, I have no problem with my mind being full. So I don't know if I need a class on that. But it helps me. Like I had this idea, you had to have your mind blank. They're like, nobody's mind blank. But you have to pull yourself back to your

focus, right? When when it starts to drift away. And that was helpful. Because otherwise, I would I was just spinning out. You know, me, I think I'm doing it wrong, right? So I was like, no. That's what I said. The whole first class, I suck at this. That's right. The reality is, it's a useful skill. It's a useful skill. It is. And actually, it was in that moment when I became the witness of that voice. And I was like, God, do I talk to myself really bad? Ah, yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's very important to, you know, have tools.

And you've mentioned that, you know, even after years of being sober, you had those tools that kept you sober. And I will say one of the important techniques for me in therapy was challenging my own thought process, you know, because I had to be taught how to, you know, do that. Is this actually true? Cognitive therapy? Yes, the cognitive CBT techniques, right. And so because my therapist said, Look, Mirabeth, you're really smart, you can find a good explanation for anything. It doesn't mean it's true. Really, really? And I remember I said, it's not that I think these, you know, as my mind was always going to this horrible thing was going to happen. I said, I'm not saying it will happen. I'm saying it really, really might. And so I have to be worried about it. Like this was like,

but the truth was that my emotional reaction was very disproportionate to the input. And it was disproportionate to the risk. And it took me a while to really be able to understand that. And the other important idea that I learned in therapy was really that I had to trust not that bad things wouldn't happen, because they will, but that I could handle them. It doesn't mean I would be able to handle them without pain, or without, you know, struggling or whatever, but I would be able to handle them. And that was what I needed to learn how to trust. And that was a really key concept for me in my, in my trauma recovery. And it helped with my substance recovery too. Wow. You don't know what someone's going

through and you don't know what they've been through either. That's true. You're such an inspiration. It's so beautiful that you're sharing your story. Tell everybody where they can get your book, where they can find you. Sure. So the book is From Junkie to Judge, One Woman's Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction. It's on Amazon and all the usual sites or your bookstore can get it. My website is junkietojudge.com. And I have information there. But also, anyone can message me through there and I answer all messages. And my Twitter is at MaryBethO underscore. And I actually don't get in arguments on Twitter. What I do is I provide information.

I provide like new science that comes out about recovery or substance use. I provide articles, things like that, useful information and some of my recovery thoughts. And then some of the recovery support options include Life Rings Secular Recovery, She Recovers Foundation, Women for Sobriety, Smart Recovery, Recovery Dharma. So anyone who's interested in researching what the options are, in addition to 12 steps, which is a good fit for many, those would be some of the groups that I would look at. Well, if I could, with your permission, I have a

reference page. I would love to add you. Sure. Of course. Of course. We created a page on our website and we have references. And so I love your references and I love, what was it again that you told yourself? I am married Beth and I'm a competent woman. Yes. I really love that. Well, you are such a great story. Your life is a beautiful story and you're a woman and I love to highlight powerful women. So thank you so much for coming on. Oh, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for listening to Sense of Soul Podcast and thanks to our special guests for having me. I really enjoyed it.