Sense of Soul - Know Thyself using the Enneagram

Episode Date: January 7, 2025

Today on Sense of Soul today we have Dr Tamra Sattler, MFT she is a therapist, professor, and entrepreneur who started her career in marketing and technology with managerial positions at companies like Salesforce, Excite and Monster.  She the author of Too Much and Not Enough Healing for the Enneagram Four or Borderline-Style Personality, a therapeutic memoir and an explorative narrative about a particular type of personality structure known as Enneagram 4 and its borderline characteristics and emotional dis-regulation. This population has been known to be difficult for therapists to treat and families to tolerate and, most importantly, to accept and embody. Often asked to consult and work with these clients, Dr. Sattler knows this personality from the inside. She then pivoted to being a therapist and learning about how people change more deeply and permanently through psycho-spiritual theories, namely the Enneagram. She has taught at Naropa for the past few years and received her PhD at CIIs in East-West Psychology. Her passion is to bring her two paths together to develop technology platforms to help humanity and the planet awaken.   Order her book here Visit her website www.tamrasattler.com  www.awakenly.com Visit SOS at www.senseofsoulpodcast.com Please consider donating to Shanna’s coffeee fund https://www.mysenseofsoul.com/sos-our-podcast Check out  https://newrealitytv.com/

Hey Soul Seekers, it's Shanna. Journey with me to discover how people around the world awaken to their true sense of soul. Now go grab your coffee, open your mind, heart and soul. It's time to awaken. today on sense of soul i have dr tamra sattler she's a therapist professor and entrepreneur camera has been learning about how people change more deeply and permanently through psycho-spiritual theories namely the enneagram and she is also the author of Too Much and Not Enough, a therapeutic memoir and an explorative narrative about a particular type of personality structure known as Enneagram 4, or borderline style personality, a population that has been known

to be difficult for therapists to treat and families to tolerate, and most importantly, to accept and embody. And Dr. Sattler knows this personality from the inside out. Her passion is to bring her two paths together to develop technology platforms to help humanity and awaken the planet. Please welcome Dr. Tamara Sattler. Tamara, thank you so much for joining me today. I feel like right now our mental health is being challenged more than ever. No matter if you've been diagnosed or not, I feel like it's a battle to stay present and away from all of the chaos that's in the world. I so agree. Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like it's a time where we need to

really truly keep our tools close. We do. Yeah. To really know ourselves. I think that's the crux of my, probably my book, my work, my everything is to know thyself. So if you know yourself, like you just said, you know your tools, then the tools are more accessible. You have different tools. Agreed. Yeah. Can you share a little bit about yourself for the listeners, just to give a little background about who you are and how you came into this work? Yeah. So I was in the business world in Silicon Valley for a while. So fast pace, you know, what was happening in technology and spirituality. And then I had kind of a pivot moment. My formula didn't work anymore of what I was kind of setting out to do kind of the success American formula, individualized.

And so I got a master's in counseling psychology, a PhD in more theoretical East-West, basically awakening psycho-spiritual. And then I became a therapist. I have done, gosh, quite a bit. I've done a lot of groups in Boulder, supervision process. Also did an app actually called Awakenly, which is live on iOS. And I let my business partner just take that, wrote a book, too much and not enough. And I continue to play with vehicles of growth and went really into the Enneagram. So the app is powered by the Enneagram. So the Enneagram, I've been studying since 2010, is basically an awakening tool. So we have this personality, this conditioning, the defense, the wounding and all.

And how do we wake up out of that? And that's essentially what the Enneagram is. And that's why I'm so passionate because there's not another map or tool that does this so efficiently and effectively. Where does that come from? I'm just curious, do you know? So I think it's still unknown, but apparently like 2000 years ago from Egypt and then this, let's see, whatever they call it, the Sarman Brotherhood were traipsing across the East. And then Gurdjieff got a hold of it, Claudio Naranjo, some of these names, and then they brought it to the West. And so my business partner, teacher, Enneagram kind of transmission holder, Russ Hudson, who's probably wrote some of

the bigger books, he is really trying to, before he leaves the planet, pass on the transmission. So it's had some iterations, but it definitely has an Eastern start to it. And then the West added on sort of the personality piece. But I think it's still kind of unknown. And I think it's gained in popularity. So I think there's a million searches a day where I don't know up until now, and I don't know if you would agree with this, I don't think we were ready to really know ourselves. And I think we're ready now. Yeah, I think we were like intentionally kept from knowing ourselves that it was heresy

to do so. I think so. Yeah. And I think not fully do we have permission, but we have more permission with podcasts like yours or the Enneagram or now therapy, thank God, is on the rise. And all these ways, self-help is a huge industry, addiction groups, the AA model. Yes. All this stuff is becoming mainstream yoga is mainstream meditation is pretty mainstream mindfulness so all this ways and to me you may agree it's all to embody and know ourselves

yeah absolutely when I was a young mother I was on Paxil for like seven years. And the only thing it did was keep me from knowing myself, right? It just numbed the part of me that I should have been listening to. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's turning you off. It did. Then it turned into pain. Then it turned into physical pain. Then I got another diagnosis with some more meds because now it was called fibromyalgia, right? We're just putting different names on different symptoms and treating each one where it was just another place in my body. Now I numb the pain, which also was screaming at me. So, you know, pain physically, mentally, and instead of caring for it, we're just shutting it up. I like that caring. Yeah. Tending to it, being with it, right? Which is really the way through. That is how I begin to know myself, right? I needed to know, you know, why I was triggered with certain things that put me into it. I used to call it a spiral. Right. There was I felt like I was like spiraling out of control or avoidance. I'm still good at avoidance. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, you have to know these things about yourself. I'm still good at avoidance nice yeah

you know you have to know these things about yourself yeah it's essential yeah and that's the way that you can shed a lot of the conditioning defenses heal the wounds

and to be in relationship to other the planet. So if you know yourself deeply, I have more of a mystical view, Hinduism, Buddhism, then most likely you're not going to treat the planet poorly because our essence is goodness, contentedness, all is well, serving. And so why would you hurt the planet, hurt another? So yeah, I just love this whole concept of waking up. Yeah. Waking up to understand that you're part of all of it. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And so my view, and I'm not sure how many Christian listeners or other, but my view is we're all divine. So how do we wake up to our, you know, divinehood, divineness? Yeah. How do I see the divine in you? How do I, yeah, how do we serve each other? Yeah, we run away from life. You know, we run away from this out of fear, I guess.

Two episodes recently that were previously recorded, and this word keeps coming up constantly, safe, feeling safe. Yeah, and then when you said before the tools, so each Enneagram, that word safe will mean something different to me than possibly to you. So for me, safety, I'm a type four. Of course, I wrote the book on type four, borderline style. Safety does not mean not having danger, not having fires, hurricanes, all that. Not at all. That just doesn't come into my attention. Safety for me is emotional safety. To be seen, to be understood, to not be overrided. But some people are freaked out, like literally about, obviously, our politics, fires. I mean, freaked out. So, yeah, so what does safety mean to all of us? You know, Colorado all of a sudden has a lot of homeless people,

and many of them have mental illness. They do. I know. It's awful. Yeah, I came from California, so I'm not really sure of what's happening here. But Boulder has a pretty good program. I know when I was in San Francisco, they had enough beds and people chose to sleep on the street. But that's part of the whole system, too.

Yeah, it's a problem. Yeah, we have a big issue going on, for sure. Yeah, it breaks my heart because you see a lot of people who are veterans out there. It seems like there's an age group that's more common. Yeah, in Boulder right now, I work with a different population than borderline now, but when I'm just roaming around, there are so many young kids that have tried drugs too early, have left their homes, trying to make it on their own with no tribe. It's not like our society has a tribe built in. I'm seeing a lot of that. I also am a teacher at Naropa. And so I see a lot of the students just lost, bewildered. And Naropa is an expensive school, but come from all parts of the country, world, and just, yeah. But wanting, but I love the spirit of wanting to serve,

you know, that, so that's the difference. Can you tell me about the title of wanting to serve, you know, so that's the difference. Can you tell me about the title of your book, Too Much and Not Enough? I find that, you know, a lot of us can. Yeah. So I worked with a population for about 15 years that's called borderline personality disorder. They're known, and not to label, but labels are good if they can find help. This population kept me up at night because they were suicidal. They needed a lot of care. And so after that, after 15 years, I was no longer able to sustain this population. So anyway, I realized with a study that came out from Stanford that each Enneagram type has a personality disorder. So BPD, I never thought

why it works so well with this clientele. So type four, at our worst, most identified, most ego identified are BPD, cyclothymic bipolar. So I knew it from the inside. So the book really is my experience as a clinician, as a person, it's a little memoir as a human. And so just getting to the core of the four slash borderline style, I'm calling it because I didn't want to keep saying borderline personality disorder because that's extreme. How is this type who sees the world, me, as glass is half empty, as feeling a deep, kind of a deep, a bit intimate wound, feeling like we need to be unique and special in every situation. How do we come to know ourself and our walk when there's only 4% of the US population

that are type four? So how do we really understand who we are so that we can transcend who we are? And so I wrote the book and I was telling you earlier, I wasn't sure who it was for. It was one of those books that I just had to write. And one of my clients was very sheepish. She said, I found something and I don't know what it's going to do to our relationship. She's my longest client in Boulder. And she was like, I read your book. So these people, these clients find things. It wasn't for my clients because it had a memoir in it and I'm a therapist and I don't disclose. So she said, I've never felt so seen. I now know that I can be helped. And she had one other thing to say. And I was just like, I wrote the book for her. And she was just

like, thank you. Like, damn. And so that's who I wrote the book for. And hopefully it gets in the right hands because I'm no longer seeing this population, but I still consult on people who have loved ones, partners, and there's still a bunch of fours out there who feel like unicorns in the business world or in the political world or wherever they are, they feel like unicorns. So how can we embrace them, right? They're so creative.

They're so sensitive. They have so much emotion. So how can we make room and say, you're welcome here? So that was the book. How often are we misdiagnosed or underdiagnosed when it comes to certain things that had we been, and had we been able to understand ourselves, you know, how that would have made a difference? All the time and still. All the time. So certain circles like Naropa, Buddhist University, wouldn't dare go near a diagnosis. Well, you know what?

They're helpful. And you don't have to say to a client, you are this. But hey, check this out. Or the Enneagram. You're not just your personality, but check this out. See if you get something out of it. And then insurance goes the other way. You have to diagnose people to get them money or for us to get paid.

So we're running both ways. What about using these things to get people help, holding them lightly? No one is their diagnosis, But can we use these things? I mean, psychiatrists surely diagnose. And they're throwing meds all over the place to try to figure out, you know, symptoms. So I do think there's a place. And if we have a good relationship with our clients, we can say, because they know we care, hey, read this book.

Do what you think. Or to this, you know, I do couples therapy. Why don't you all read this together? Or I think sometimes it's like watch this podcast or listen to this YouTuber who talks about it, who has it, who shares their own personal stories where you don't feel so alone. Exactly. And I don't know why I'm talking about reading this book. I guess I'm just talking, I'm just looking at my book, but a lot of people don't read anymore. So there's podcasts, there's videos, there's documentaries, there's groups. You know, I really wish we had more AA groups just for us regular folks.

I say that all the time. Yeah, like what if you're going through a breakup or your kid's empty nesters and you go down to this meeting and it's the empty nester group. It's happening. It's in the air. The time is now. We're all waking up. We're waking up. We're all waking up. We're waking up.

We're all waking up. It's all shifting. New vibrations. It's you. It's you. It's me. It's all of us. Together.

A new time. A new day. A new energy. A new energy. A new reality. Awaken with us. Awaken with us. Awaken with us. NewRe with us. Awaken with us.

NewRealityTV.com I say that all the time. They should take off Alcohol Anonymous and just have it for all. I know. Because the big book is brilliant. Yeah. We don't have that. I've been in Al-Anon for like over a decade.

Yeah. Awesome. This community is boy, I think we used to have it maybe in churches or who knows where. So how, yeah, how can we keep together in all this? I love these groups for that reason. I go to a Buddhist group just because it's so nourishing.

Why not? Because there's no shame there. Because that's kind of like the idea. It's like, we're all here together. And you'll see different walks of life, which I also always find so amazing. We're all human. We're all experiencing this life. And yeah, I'll need to eat. You know, we all need to feel, you know, safe and whatever that word means to you. We all need to grow, hopefully. And so, yes, we're human. We need shelter.

We need the basics. And we're not getting the basics in our culture. We're not. Right. No. So how do we get the basics for people? But also how, you know, how does everything else grow and serve? You just saying that just made me think of how much nature has taught me and how, you know,

we've lost that. One of the reasons I moved to Boulder, because I'm looking right now, I'm looking at the, you know, front range flat irons, and I can be on a hike in five minutes. That's pretty amazing. I can be at a ski hill in 20 minutes. I need that nature. Like if we just are in it, it's just so nourishing. And if we watch it, we have nature in us if we could just slow down it's amazing how you know you can walk past a tree and never notice like all of its beauty until you become still and mindful with it and all of a sudden it's like holy cow this thing is magical glistening and it's waving and it's doing all its stuff yes we have a lot to learn in our culture. Yeah.

Just slow down. I agree with you on that. Yeah. I just recently have been just kind of looking at everything from a different perspective, I guess, because maybe my daughter moved out and they're both very successful. But just like you work to have to work to have more that you were in like, is this life? You know, I mean, is this truly what humans are for? Or did that system actually contribute to damaging Earth and us?

And so I admire that you moved up to sounds like you like more of that simple right life um to be able to just take a hike in five minutes I'm really desiring that that seems to be like my goal from here on out and I'm still unwinding so I came from heavy conditioning on success and still started at 35 and then started unraveling. So however many years later, I still have little pieces of like, oh, I need this. No, I don't. No, I need to eat, have shelter, have friends, have love. No, I don't need this. I've unwound a lot and my doer nature in me I'm still working on how can I feel valuable just as me and I think for a lot of us it's hard

to just sit with ourselves not create something not do a task? You know, I mean, honestly, my youngest being in seventh grade, this is the first time I've ever really been able to do anything for myself that didn't revolve all my children. Just yesterday I was talking with my daughter. I was like, I used to bring three kids to three different schools and run around with the newborn. Yeah, wow. But prior to this, I mean,

it worked for my dad. My dad had a family business and I did that with him until he passed in 2016. And I really don't desire any kind of life that has me working nine to five. And I don't want that for my children. I don't want them to think that that is a successful life. I think that it almost steals our life from us. It sure does. Yes. I know people, my dad included, I mean, he died at 64 years old because he worked himself to death, right? I know people who, they never take a vacation. They can't even tell you the last time, you know, they just went and walked and just, you know, sat with nature. Like, we have this really, really distorted view on what I see personally now as a successful, rich life.

We do. I know. And I don't know if the boomers gave that to us. The millennials are seeming to do it differently. Yeah. My parents both, it was almost like pull yourself up by your bootstraps. They work themselves, you know, to death. One of them to death also like yours. Yes. So I think we're getting, you know, a little bit of a different, like we get to craft this. Like, how do I want this to look? And then it's fortunately not very cheap to live in this country, especially with inflation and the cost and everything. But how can you live in a co-op housing? Your kids live with you, you know, long term. Can you have a garden? Could you be more self-sufficient? Right. You know, what can we do so that we get peace of mind and leisure?

It's unheard of to hang back, relax, take a a month off I took my first sabbatical at salesforce.com which is a huge company now and my parents were just like what do you mean you're doing what I was like I'm taking a sabbatical they fake had no idea what that meant yeah and set it off this whole trend that people at Salesforce are still taking sabbaticals. Oh, wow. Yeah. And you know what? You're right.

There's a huge difference between like the boomers and Gen Z. And there's going to be even more with Gen Alpha. Yeah. I have kids from three different generations. Wow. So my oldest is like barely millennial, right? He was born in the 90s, you know, and then all the way to 2012. So even their conversations are so interesting because you have one that's like we you guys need to unify and get together and she's like I don't have to do anything that anyone thinks I should do I just it's so amazing or you know or he'll say where are you crying come on suck it up and and she's like because I'm allowed to express my feelings. It's so interesting to see how, you know, they all look. And then you get any, you know,

any grandparent over and they're like, what is wrong with these children these days? Right? What is wrong with them? I don't think anything's wrong with them, actually. I think they're less conditioned. They are the first of their kind. So of course they don't have a strong foundation. Yeah. And they've seen so much in their short lifetimes. They've seen a lot. Yeah. They have information at their fingertips. You know, they don't have to go and experience as much. But I think that I know for myself, that was one of the things I asked myself early on in my journey, Tamara, was that, you know, how much of what I believed in had I been told to believe? And of that, how much had I truly experienced to be my truth for myself?

Yep. I was the same. I had a false self running. That did pretty well in this culture, but very far away than my truer self. Absolutely. But if you don't start diving in, then you live out your false self and then you leave the planet. And we get our spark from our true self. Like when you meet someone, you can kind of tell the openness, the spark, the are they really themselves? Are they shedding, conditioning other past relationship? Like who is this person? And I, that's kind of like one of my, well, not so much my favorite, but yeah, how do I discern who people are, where they are, what they are? But there's not a lot of psychological theories that talk about adult development, the awakening

process. Where are we? People hate words like enlightenment, awakening, but that's fine. Don't like the word, but where are we in our openness, in our non-egoic place, in our deepest self? Where are we? And those are the people I like to be around because if we're around a bunch of true selves, it feels different. Yeah. Authentic relationships are definitely few though.

Yeah. How do we find our tribe and then keep serving, you know, get the spark in everyone? You know, because everyone wants a spark. No one doesn't want a spark. So how do we get contagious about it? You know, I have to ask you, I'm not so familiar with some of the characteristics of border personality. Okay. Because I've not, you know, had anybody, you know, I usually become an expert in whatever, you know, I'm dealing with. Your children. Right. Or my mother or, yeah yeah the people around me a lot of times border personality

is one that is common in addicts and alcohol and bipolar too and sometimes those can go together so just but it just give you just a flavor of it so in the d, which is our psychological manual, you need seven out of the nine symptoms. So basically stuff like unstable relationships, suicide ideation, substance abuse is in there, sometimes cutting, self-sabotage. It's been a while since I looked at the symptoms. Yeah. But that's the flavor. They take up 10% of the psych wards. I would think it's more. So when you're in relationship, thank God when I was a therapist, I had a container

boundaries, but now I have a few at a distance that have this diagnosis and you feel constantly pushed and pulled as their other. So the premier book is Walking on Eggshells. You feel like, oh God, what did I say? And then you get slapped. And the thing that I say is no one tried to be this way. These were people that came through the womb and had a culture developed around them that brought out these really hard characteristics. So let's not like shame people. Let's just get them help. Yep. So yeah, so they can be really difficult to treat. Most therapists will not go near them. So where are they? They're in jails. They're at site boards. They're being misdiagnosed. They're

creating havoc all around. Medicated probably heavily. Yep. Or non, running around. Yeah, so very charismatic. It's no doubt that they attract a lot of people because they've got

fire in them. I didn't know that, really. Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, they're going to be, you know, dynamic. But once you get, you know, them, the, you know, the anxious ambivalence starts, the fear, the abandonment wound starts to stir. You know, what's interesting is I've had both, you know, close to me, alcoholics as well as people

who have some mental illness and I have to deal I learned over time and I guess probably with the help of Al-Anon that I pretty much have to treat them the same in many ways you know I have to have my boundaries I have to understand the three c's. I didn't create it. I didn't cause it. And I can't cure it. Because you do as a person like me, I definitely was a fix it person, like I'm going to fix you. And I think this comes from being little and being around that, always thinking, I'm going to be the good one so that way you know you either go one way or the other I'm going to make noise and be heard or I'm going to blend in and just try to make everybody and please everybody right yeah yeah yeah you know all those

things I still have relationships with all those people I I still love them very much. They're the best people I know, right? It was me that had to work on how to be healthy in my relationships with anybody, but especially with those who were struggling on their own. I always say I am absolute proof that you can still be in a relationship with an alcoholic and still be healthy. Yeah. And as well as mental illness. It's not about changing them. It's about you changing you. So awesome.

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Everyone's worth loving. I agree. Everyone. You know, them knowing that I think helps their journey too. Absolutely. Like you're loved, Anna, and you can't call me every five seconds.

And I still love you. I'm not going to answer. I still love you, but I'm not going to answer your call every five seconds. Just can't. Oh, and after a while, they don't even try. And so it's not even a thing. Right. They get the boundaries. Like, boundaries are for real. We educate people how to treat us. Like you were saying, I did a similar dance with people. And it's like, no.

I thought I was so empathic and so helpful. No. No. It's actually pretty destroyed in the process. you see i did this and it worked for me so you should do this and it'll work for you but it just doesn't work that way we're you know we're all such unique souls you know here on you know having this experience it's not the same for any of us but i do like the whole enneagram and I did not know that it was connected to different mental illnesses. Like what are the other ones that it's connected to? Or is it pretty much all

of them? Yeah. So type one, if you know the Enneagram OCD, type two history on it, type three, just your typical kind of culture, type A, type four, like me borderline type five, schizoid, schizoaffective, schizotypal type six, paranoid personality disorder, which isn't quite a personality disorder, but anyway, seven narcissism, eight antisocial and nine dependent personality disorder. Okay. I feel like I want to go to my whole house. Yeah. So that's for real. I know. I know. I've, I want to go to my whole house yeah so that's for real I know I know I've I've typed all my neck and my nieces and my things and they all get a kick who doesn't want to know themselves and who doesn't want to know your friend your boyfriend it's so contagious I approached Google once to say I think you should have a self category. And they're like, what?

This is in the early days. They didn't want to know themselves. They would have like blown up, you know, their categories. They used to have categories like portals. So yeah, I just think knowing self, being self is the most interesting for all of us. Then we can understand other. Then I can have compassion for you. I don't have to fight you.

Yeah, so. Absolutely. I think it's the most important thing right now in the world. Yeah. And if you know yourself, you may see that you need some love and some care, you know, and some healing. You need to ask for something or change it up. Or say no to something.

Oh, yeah. I had to learn that one. I even have, like, fake-like scripts in my phone just in case I can't think of something. Because I'm so used to saying yes. I needed to actually make up fake no's. Not fake no's, but, like, I need to actually make up fake no's not fake no's but like I need to choose myself today you know I had to come up with something I get too pressured on the fly I'm like yes I'll do it I'll do it I know I have the opposite no is my favorite word that's what my dad when I came out of the

womb it was no yeah so I have to wake up more to a maybe and a yes. So maybe is not even in my realm. But what about a yes? You know, there's differences in people. Yeah. You have to just figure out for yourself and what works. Yeah. Thank you so much.

You're such a beautiful person. And maybe if I ever come up to Boulder, I'll have to message you and we'll go on a hike or something. Yeah, we need to. That'd be fun. And yeah, if whatever questions, concerns, I still consult with this population. If you're four, sometimes I'll run four groups, you know, just whatever you need any information tamra t-a-m-r-a sattler s-a-t-t-l-e-r.com so what is that is there a name for the four is it just type four it's a lot of people call it different things so romance individualist and then as a um heel we don't look so much like fours. Like, you know, even though ordinary gives me the creeps, like the word ordinary still is like, whoa, I can be more ordinary than I used to be able to be.

So, you know, we evolve. So I'm not going to look like as clear as a four as I used to look. But yeah, so we have this, you know, each of the types have this evolution. I love that. I see that with, you know, just like again with astrology, I used to think, gosh, I'm really not a stubborn person. It sounds so negative. But you know, stubborn, like I said, could be persistent, could be, you know, many things, like I'm going to get this done, which is a good thing. So changing that perspective sometimes and mixing it up.

Yeah. Evolving. We evolve through our types. You know, I tried to see if I could find my Enneagram type. I wouldn't want to type you just because, you know, people are supposed to type themselves. But you're between one and two numbers for me just in being with you so yeah yeah i'm a people pleasing mother well and i have you know adhd too so wherever that fits in i don't know i'm holding you in two different places but i also i have a

little bit of social anxiety and stuff like that too. So, yeah. I would have never, ever in my life thought I'd podcast. So, this is with the evolving part and the growing part. Because my best friend, who is definitely the charismatic type we talked about, yeah, she was the one that would want to do this. You know, I'm just kind of, you know, her sidekick. And then she left me. That's so cool. Yeah.

It just seems like this view. I mean, this seems so perfect for you. Well, and she's very vulnerable. And the way she's so raw in sharing her story, I think has helped so many people. Yeah. And you're raw, too. You know, you're vulnerable, too, which is nice. Yeah.

I think that's part of the whole knowing yourself. because once you know yourself, there's no shame there. Yeah, you share it and it only helps people. Exactly. All right, love. Nice to meet you. Have a good day. All right. Bye.

Bye. Sense of Soul. Thanks for listening to Sense of Soul Podcast. And thanks to our special guest. If you want more of Sense of Soul, check out my website at senseofsoulpodcast.com. It's time to awaken.