Sense of Soul - Pregnancy, Infant, and Child Loss Remeberence

Episode Date: October 14, 2022

This week is Baby Loss Awareness Week, October 15th is Pregnancy, Infant, and Child Loss Remeberence Day, and today on Sense of Soul podcast we will be remembering Dylan Taylor. His parents, our dear friends Angelica and Billy Taylor joined us for a hard and very heartfelt conversation. In 1997 the newly married couple were preparing for their first child. They had learned through an ultrasound that they were having a boy. Billy and Angelica were so excited to begin their lives as parents. Everything was going well until Angelica begun to have concerning symptoms that lead her to the hospital, in her second trimester.  Angelica was diagnosed with “HELLP Syndrome” a rare pregnancy complication. It is a type of preeclampsia that causes elevated liver enzymes and low platelet count. Many women who have HELLP syndrome need to give birth early to prevent health complications.  Angelica and Billy were faced with having to make decisions that nobody should ever have to make. However this was an emergency and the urgency was a matter of life and death. The risks were great, inducing labor would mean that their baby would be very premature, but if they didn’t, there would be a chance Billy would lose them both.  Angelica and Billy take us back to the day they had their firstborn, to the moments they lost their firstborn. Hear from a fathers prespective as Billy so genuinely shares his story, learn how they struggled in grief, yet managed to survive this traumatic loss and find their happy once again.  If you or someone you care about has lost a child to stillbirth, miscarriage, SIDS, or any other cause at any point during pregnancy or infancy. 1 in 4 women will lose a baby during pregnancy, delivery or infancy, Please join us in raising awareness this October for Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month and share this episode. YOU ARE NOT ALONE! If you’d like to contact Angelica and Billy you can email them at [e-mail] https://starlegacyfoundation.org/awareness-month https://babyloss-awareness.org  Visit Sense of Soul at www.mysenseofsoul.com Do you want Ad Free episodes? Join our Sense of Soul Patreon, our community of seekers and lightworkers. Also recieve 50% off of Shanna’s Soul Immersion experience as a Patreon member, monthly Sacred circles, Shanna and Mande’s personal mini series, Sense of Soul merch and more. https://www.patreon.com/senseofsoul Thanks to our Sponsors! KACHAVA: www.kachava.com/senseofsoul ATHLETIC GREENS: www.athleticgreens.com/senseofsoul

Welcome to the Sense of Soul podcast. We are your hosts, Shanna and Mandy. Grab your coffee, open your mind, heart, and soul. It's time to awaken. Hey friends, if you're looking for ad-free Sense of Soul episodes, you can find them at Sense of Soul Patreon. Become a monthly member at any level. You will also have access to our monthly SOS Sacred Circles, our mini-series, merch, and MuchBorn. And it's a great way to help support our podcast so that we can continue to bring you inspiring episodes twice a week with our enlightened guests from all around the world.

Check out our Patreon. Today we have on Angelica and Billy Taylor. We are so grateful that they are joining us on Sense of Soul. Shanna and I have known them for many years and consider them good friends. Today, we are going to talk about how they lost their sweet son, Dylan. We will talk about the event itself and how they've turned their pain into purpose. Angelica and I actually recorded before, and I was going to release it on Patreon, but it just was lost. I believe as all of our listeners know that everything happens for a reason. And I think that that was the divine

letting us know that her husband, Billy needed to be part of this interview. And I'm so grateful that Billy is here to join us today. I really believe it's important that we hear from a man and what it felt like for him to lose his son, because I have never heard a man speak on this topic. I see many women, but I think more men need to speak out about it. And again, we are just grateful that you guys are here to join us. And I know that this is a painful topic, but I thank you for joining us today on Sense of Soul podcast. Well, thanks for having us. I feel honored and privileged to be part of it.

You know, I want to jump back really fast because I don't even know if I know the real story. Like, tell me about the day that you guys met and decided that you were going to date one another. So why don't you tell your side? Because it's so funny. Well, Angelica and I went to high school together. And there was a party that I really did not want to go to.

And my best friend, Chris, and a couple other buddies talked me into going to it. But I drank very heavily. He was going to a girl's house that he was kind of hooking up with. It was like a friends with benefits. She don't care. This is how we roll, right? So anyway, it wasn't serious at all, but it was her birthday party at somebody's house. So anyway, this was 1993. So we go to the party. I go through the door. And Angelica, when she tells the story, she's like, oh, hearts for eyes. And I was like, oh, my God, hearts for eyes. When I walked in, we had a friend, a mutual friend that was there, Tisha.

And I said, Tisha, you got to go put in a good board for me. You know, you got to go talk me up, go make me look good and all that stuff. She's beautiful, right? But I told everybody literally right before that party that I was not going to date anybody seriously. And a little friendly bet that I'd be the last one to get married. He walked in and it was like instant. I knew what I wanted and I was like, that's it. It worked out well i tried to keep

some distance early on and not commit overly commit probably played a little hard to get but fell harder and then i remember the little one-off stuff like going to apartment and waiting for her to show uh lunch dates and all that but I remember we came in from being out and around my mom and dad and she went to set I think next to my dad I was sitting next to my mom and I watched her engage them just back and forth and the banter and all that stuff and at that point I knew I was like I love her and that's when I told her that's the first time I told well he is the youngest of seven he was a mama's boy like very loved his mom she passed away but he walked on water to his mom and so I think he has told me that since his mom loved me if my mom approved then yeah definitely deep

in the attachment that's for sure made it easier I guess so. And then it moved really, really fast. It was like, his friends were like, what? You just met her and now what? A year later, you're engaged and now you're getting married. I mean, it was fast. It was really fast. And here we are. I love it. 28 years later. Oh my gosh. You're all the ups and the downs. Yeah. And I was lucky enough to stand in your wedding.

Yes, you were. You were. Yes. I didn't realize it was that fast. Then how long after you got married did you get pregnant, Angelica? So we got married in 95 and he was born in 97. Not even two years. She came home and said, I think we're ready to have a baby.

And I was like, yep, I think we are. I'll try all we can. And Mandy was cool because we started planning out for her in advance and saying, okay, we know we want to have a kid. We know she's going to get pregnant. The anticipation of, you know, you want a healthy baby and what that looks like. But we were all in.

So she would go to the store and come back with a little outfit. I remember even before we knew what the sex was, you know, we were picking up little odds and ends. She'd pick up diapers saying that, oh, you know, we can't buy them all at once, but if you stock up a little bit here and there, then we'll have plenty. So we were preparing long before. You know, when they tell you don't set up things too soon, you don't realize why they say that. We found out we were having a boy, you know, we were all in before, but like the little stuff football.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For our listeners, so you guys know, Angelica is, she does, she's amazing at interior design. When they talk about being organized and anticipating and planning, that's so Angelica. I can only imagine how cute the nursery, had you started it, Angelica? It wasn't complete, but we definitely did lots of stuff and then yeah tore it all down and the little blankets the little knickknacks yeah football gonna have my boy and it was exciting I mean very very exciting let's talk about the doctor's appointments. Did they say everything was healthy?

Did you do all the tests? Everything came back normal? No, actually not, but it doesn't have, I don't know if it has anything to do with each other, but you know, the blood test you do at 16 weeks, it was 16 weeks then. I don't know what it is now, but the blood test to see if it has like downs or whatever. I came back abnormal. And so we actually went in and had an amnio and then it came back fine. So I don't know if it had anything to do with that. You know, I'm not really sure if that played into it, but everything was normal at that point. Yeah. Her gynecologist was actually really great phenomenal did a good job by going to the appointments explaining stuff and even on that stuff she's like don't worry you know we'll do some confirmatory testing we'll monitor throughout

but from all outward appearances it was a very healthy pregnancy. It felt great. Yeah. I was excited. I was really happy. I felt good. Then I started going in after that and my proteins would be a little elevated. But right before that, I had swollen up really bad. And I went in and they said, yeah, your proteins are elevated. Just go home and put your feet up, compression stockings and stuff. And I still feel guilty because I would do it, but I wasn't, but I was concerned because you never think anything bad is going to happen.

And we didn't know anybody that had gone through this. So it was like, oh, we're young, everything's fine. And then it was our anniversary and we go to Brooks. And of course, you know, I ate all the salty food. I ate everything they told me not to do. And so that plays into a lot of guilt too. But you don't think anything's going to happen. Even before the anniversary, she'd complain of stomach pains. Oh yeah, heartburn. I thought it was heartburn. Hindsight being 20-20, you know, were they indicators?

What happens on a normal pregnancy? And obviously we were kids. So you don't know. You just assume that that's part of the process. And then it was Bronco Sunday. And we traditionally just always watched football. I had been complaining also of pains between my rib cage, like indigestion. But it wasn't indigestion.

It was my liver was starting to enlarge. And we didn't know that until we knew what I got really sick and found out what I had. But that day I had already taken a bath. I was, I'm a bath person to this day. And then I took another bath. I think in the afternoon we ate, I went to the bath again and Bill's like, this isn't right. This is not right.

I said, I don't feel good. My stomach is hurting you know i said no i'm not going he's from taking you we go in and she gets checked blood pressure's super high i'm in a lot of pain and the doctors are concerned so i got admitted not at my normal hospital we were living in westminster the time. So I got admitted and they knew I was pregnant. And so to have blood pressure that high, it was not good. So then they did a full, they did x-rays and I was like, I'm pregnant. And so they made me wear one of those big apron things and I'm freaking out and I'm like, is the baby okay? What's happening?

And then they thought I had gallstones or something was wrong with my gallbladder. So then they send the test to my doctor who's at Rose and she calls and says, get her down here right now. I mean, I was in and out of consciousness, like because I was in so much pain and they gave me the medicine. I was like, oh, everything's fine. Baby's fine. You know? And then they sent me to Rose in an ambulance and I was still like in and out and Bill couldn't ride with me and show up at Rose. He's there. He's called some friends. They're there. And I'm like, what's happening? I still don't know how those guys found out, but they were at the hospital when we arrived. His buddies, because they were, they all worked together we're there and they

opened up the doors and i was like what's that who's what's who's here like what's going on so billy when kurt had to ride behind the ambulance the night of my asthma attack he said he literally doesn't even remember driving he was like crying driving and like in a blackout do you remember anything that you like experienced or like can you talk about that for a moment that must have been fucking terrifying uh surreal numb you don't know you know it's bad i'm probably more optimistic so i'm like okay her gynecologist really good. Like I said, she was great throughout the process. So it's going to be all right. It's just, it's complicated, you know? And so scared. But at that point, and I think this is a guy side of things

that you try to be strong. So you don't panic. You're like, oh, we'll work it out. It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. So even getting into the hospital when your friends are there, you're like, oh, it's going to be good. We're going to be fine. You know, we're going to get her checked out. They'll get her taken care of. And at that juncture, I remember she's going to have to be on bed rest. You know, I'm going to even have to take care of her even more. It was one of those things that it was going to be okay. And then they brought in the specialist. And when they brought it back, that part was terrible. Because machines.

Well, it's this time of year, too. You know, October, it's approaching october the christmas the crisp air the leaves turning all that kind of triggers too but they said to bill your wife is really sick yeah i think after she saw me got all this stuff information more tests than she said to him. There's, sorry. Don't be sorry and take a moment if you need to, and can just sit in silence for a moment because Shanna and I, you know, stress to our listeners that, you know, to cry and release these feelings is healthy. This is why I think it was important to have you on Billy, because it's important to let men know that it's okay, even after all these years to have emotions like

this and feel the way you are. So please don't apologize. Well, I appreciate that. And until you go through it, you can't put words to it but you go back there and like i said i'm pretty light-hearted like joking around and the doctors get in there and they're like you know what there's a good possibility that you're going to lose them both holy shit that's literally what they said to you? Yeah. Then just how fast it was like, hey, we need to induce. The only way to save Angelica is for her to deliver.

Yeah, we've got to induce and I'm like, no, it's too soon. Can't we just keep her in the hospital? Can't we just keep her in the bed? Can't you guys monitor her? Can we get it a little bit farther bed? Can't you guys monitor? You know, can we get it a little bit farther out? And they said, you've got to make some tough decisions. And at this juncture, Angelica is not able to, she was just unaware, so drugged up. And you got to make

decisions. And here's the consequences of the decisions. At that juncture, you're like, what do you do? You know? Of course the doctors want to save me because they had said the baby is, they use the term, maybe not viable, shit like that. Like, you know, what do you mean the baby's not viable? You know, because it's so young. Because I just turned 25 weeks. and 27 weeks is the week or 28 27 28 weeks is what you're hoping for

again because I was on such good pain meds I didn't feel the pain anymore so I didn't feel sick I just knew I was groggy every time I woke up he's crying I still don't feel the urgency and everything. And so my doctor, Dr. Russell said, you're really sick. We have to induce because you won't, you won't make it. I had Pelt syndrome, a very severe and rare case of preeclampsia. It is the severest. It's called H-E-L-L-P-M-E. So the H stands for hemolysis and it's your red blood cells are starting to break down. Then you have elevated liver enzymes. So you're going to have liver failure. Then you have low platelets. So that's where the H-E-L-L-P comes from. And so you can't clot. So I was already so elevated that my blood platelets were so low. They thought I was going to like bleed out or I was going to have seizures.

My organs were going to start to fail. So to go from feeling really good to just having a stomach ache to now being almost that far gone, it was very surreal. Like Bill said, like, and so I'm like, you're going to induce what? I just remember my doctor standing over me i'm like i had ivs everywhere but they were getting ready to push the medicine right into the carotid i mean yes yes and so they did that and i just remember her looking over me she's like it's gonna be okay because she was so soothing that it made me feel it was everything going to be okay and they brought me in and said all right you got to make some choices here's what's going on and then I said

when Dylan's born you know what what are those chances and they gave you there's a chance it it doesn't look good but you know that there's always a chance. And this gives both of them the best possible option. And then you worry about that. Okay, if I make this decision and he does pass away, would Angelica ever forgive me? Aw, baby. Sorry, I didn't think it would be that hard. But you just weighed the options out and said, let's induce and pray and hope for the best. And we prayed a lot.

But that's when they went ahead and did the induction. Started giving me all the meds. Had the Pitocin. I mean, I had everything. They wouldn't put a monitor on my belly to monitor the baby. So they stopped monitoring him because they were all focused on me. They didn't at that point do anything for him other than the medicine they give you to induce you to help his lungs. That was really it.

That was really it yeah that was really hard i do remember right before all that though they did do the quick little ultrasound to make sure the heartbeat and all that stuff was good so that's and was it good yeah it was fine you're strong inside me he was fine billy that is a lot of fucking pressure on a husband's shoulders to have to make that sort of decision. And I'll never forget when I found out that was a decision that you had to make. I literally like was sick to my stomach because no husband should ever have to be put in that position. And so my heart just went out to you because it was like, of course you want your wife to live, but this is your first son. Did you have support in making that decision?

I know you said you prayed. Were your parents there? Were your friends there? Or was this just you and the doctors? Well, my dad had come in and I had friends in the lobby, but as far as making the decision, I didn't go back out to the lobby until after Dylan was born. So it was between me and God.

You know, and you always wonder that you do the right thing. But I will tell you that going through that, you count your blessings. You know, things aren't that bad. How do I articulate this? I've never felt more alone. Your mind races like, you you know will she forgive me you know what what does this look like and so you you compartmentalize you're like okay let's just get through this have the baby let's get her healthy let's get him healthy i really tried to break it down just step by step like let's get through this okay this is good let's get through this and i didn't think too far in advance other than that

like how it looks two weeks from now or three weeks from now two months from now we'll deal with that later let's just the next hour you know is she okay and i will tell you when dylan came out you feel the same as you feel with page and mitchell the excitement the joy the you didn't get to do the the little things because he had to go into the incubator real fast and all that but after checking on angelica and this is what made me that sense of calm is I got to go in and they had a little hole in the incubator that you could put your hand in and he would grab your fingers and he would hold on

and stuff. I remember that. Bill was so strong for me he never left my side never and so after dylan was born i didn't get to hold him nothing and so they took him and bill got to spend quite a bit of time with him which i'm so thankful for they didn't bring me in until I was stable. I think 12 hours or so. And I still have that thing in my neck and my, my hair was, they didn't even, they just bandaged it all up. And so I couldn't even straighten out my neck. And so I go to see him. We couldn't hold him. You know, he's there. He's tiny, so tiny so tiny I mean his fingers were I mean I can't even explain he's

so tiny and he was perfect other than he was just small he just wasn't couldn't live he just couldn't um he lived for 24 hours you know he fought and they told us that um creamy boys aren't as strong as creamy girls and i don't know what it is the xxxy chromosome but we were still so hopeful he was born alive we were like he's alive he's alive that we just thought he was going to be fine and i didn't get to spend as much time as possible and that part was it was no different than Paige, no different from Mitchell. My dad got to come in. Yeah, everybody got to visit.

He wanted to come visit. And the same thing. And that means a lot. Just hold his hand. And at that juncture, I'm like, okay, we're going to be okay. I don't know what it looks like. You know, there could be complications. Is he handicapped?

All that stuff and then they came in and said well he had a brain hemorrhage that was the second wave of decisions they they came in is they said okay do you want a dnr on dylan and at that juncture, they explained about the hemorrhage and what that would look like and the complications. So you're making choices that nobody should ever have to make, right? You should never be the one to. oh they asked if when he said if he was born if he was not alive or struggling when he was born would we want to or do everything we could to keep him alive and we said absolutely yes and then they tried to explain he can have handicaps he could be blind he could be this he could be that and we were like we don't care we don't care we just want our son we just want our son and so he was born alive and that's when I said oh my gosh he's alive and so then they take him

Dylan was a vaginal birth correct yes yes and so you went through the normal contractions and birth yeah I was on an epidural so I didn't feel you know all that yes, I had all of that. I had everything, everything. And how much did Dylan weigh when he was born? Less than two pounds, less than two pounds, less than 12 inches. You know, I remember seeing Dylan and visiting and I remember, oh my gosh, he was so tiny. Like you could hold him in your hand, but he had every part that a baby would have the fingernails. I mean, little lashes. He was like so angelic and perfect.

He was just tiny. He was tiny. Billy, I love that you told our listeners that you experienced that same joy that you did for your two children that you have now when Dylan was born because at the same time it had to have been very terrifying to see such a small little baby but he was perfect every way that you expect a child to be Dylan was that way he was just he was small he was so tiny and maybe when you say you hold him in the palm of your hand absolutely i mean he he was little but even then this is some of the things that uh we brought the little football and i don't know who brought it from the house but we put it in the incubator they let us put it off in the incubator off to the side and it was your boy

and then you knew it was going to be difficult and you knew there's going to be challenges but like i said you compartmentalized so for me it was like okay let's do this and then you know when he passed away then it was the how do you say goodbye to that? And when you talk about loss, it's not just the loss of him, but it was loss of potential. Like you wonder what he would have been like three, five,

homecoming call. Yeah. So how did you guys say goodbye to him? Leaving the hospital without a baby must have been just the hardest thing to do. Well, when they came in and said he'd had a brain hemorrhage, what do you want to do? We were like, okay.

If we try to keep him alive right now it's for us not for him and that guilt you know could they have could have would have you know but we didn't want him to suffer because of what we wanted and so they brought him in and um um, to be with us. And I was holding him when he passed away. And that was very hard holding your child when they passed away, you know, and we were so young and still trying to grasp what was happening. But it is very lonely leaving the hospital. Do you guys feel like this horrible experience made you guys closer in any way? Yes, it did. And the doctors have warned us that it tears a lot of couples apart, more so than keeps them together. And I owe that to Bill because he is just very

optimistic. He's a caretaker and kind and generous in every way. And whereas I'm more pessimistic and, you know, sometimes I can play the victim a lot and he just was there for me and he, we lifted each other up when this happens, people don't really talk about it. Nobody knows really what to say. People say things that can be so hurtful, but they don't mean it. And Bill is the type of person and it rubs off on me that we didn't want to make anybody feel uncomfortable. You know, like we were trying to be strong for everybody else because we didn't want anybody to worry about us and so you know people would say things that you just so well at least you

don't have a lifetime of memories or you can save his name for your next baby or you can try again and we're still we don't have our we don't have our son and we're just like we just grieve and so when you're leaving the hospital and my body is going through there's a baby that was awful that was that was a constant reminder i couldn't my body was yearning for my baby again i mean mind body spirit everything still producing breast milk still the same thing that every mother goes through she experiences without the baby which is difficult and i'll tell you maybe the tough like when we're together it was good when worried the most was when we weren't together because of the depression, the second guessing.

And Angelica, she went through that for a long time. I still feel a lot of guilt. Like, should have I done something different? Could have I done something different? It wasn't my fault. Yeah, a lot of blame. And then the same thing is, God, if we caught it sooner, could they have done something?

I mean, you do a lot of self-reflection. And to be fair, people are trying to be supportive, but they don't know what to say because it's something, like I said, until you go through it, you just don't know. So the little one-off comments that were meant to be comforting were extremely hurtful. Like, oh, you can use that name again. And the... You can adopt if you can't have children.

Because we didn't know what was wrong. You can have another, you know. And getting through that. It's lonely. It's lonely. You feel alone. Completely alone. Nobody understands.

I couldn't help. She's been gracious saying that I was there. And I think I was there. Physically and in spirit. But she has a bond. You have a bond. Shanna has a bond with your kids that a guy's never going to know. No guy's ever going to know because they didn't grow inside their body.

They didn't experience all that stuff. You just don't know. For me, it was how can I relate? It's a problem I can't solve, which is very difficult for guys. Guys are task oriented. Like, you give me a problem, I want to solve it. But you learn to, okay, this is a problem I can't solve. You just got to listen a little bit.

And group therapy. And this is one thing that me and Angelica were different on is she would go to, I think it was Rose, where the mothers who lost children would talk. And maybe I had zero desire to go through that. For me, it was like, I don't want to relive it. I just can't relive it. You know, hand hurtleizes things. And I was like, no, I need to be around people that have been through this. Because like I said, it's very lonely. And when you're trying not to talk to people about it or protect other people's feelings, you have to be around people that, um, have been through it. It's just like you with your asthma. I don't know what it's like to have asthma or have your

near death experience and go through coma. You can explain it as best you can. And I, people can visualize it, but until you have gone through it, it's so it's just, it's hard to explain, right? You can explain it and you can empathize, but until you feel that loss, whether it's an infant or a child, or, you know, it, it doesn't matter what stage it's just, it's the same loss is loss and people grieve so differently. And he was trying to be so strong for me. We jumped right back in to try to normalize our lives. He had to work. His mother had died two years before. And so he was holding all this in being strong for me. But at night we cried together a lot together yelled and screamed why why why but for everybody else we were very strong and stoic and some people have said you know it didn't even look like you

were really sad and i'm like fuck you that you don't even understand what it's like to grieve you don't know everybody grieves their own way yeah well in the repercussions the ripple effect so start a question my faith yeah i might not be a perfect christian but you know i believe in god and jesus and why you know so many people have kids that don't want kids or I was angry. Questioning everything. Why? How could this happen? My brothers and sisters, I remember what Angela said,

I got a big family. They just didn't know what to say. So sometimes they didn't say anything at all. And that became problematic too, is that they don't care because they weren't calling and checking and stuff like that so but when they did call we would say everything's fine we're fine we're fine remember when you were pregnant because like right around the time i was pregnant with drew

that's like a hard thing i've gone through that with other people as well because you know when you do end up having a healthy baby it you almost feel like this guilt yes subsequently we had two beautiful healthy children afterwards and so yeah you do a survivor's guilt maybe and uh yeah you do have a little bit of guilt when you know somebody desperately wants a baby and everything was fine and then the next day it's not. But it also allowed us to be there for others because nobody talks about it. And so I was able to talk to people in my family and friends of friends. People didn't even know, but they would ask, you know, what should I say? What, you know, an experience. And what I hope everybody gets from this podcast

and nothing else is this happens a lot. And one of the things that it didn't bring me comfort, but I knew we weren't alone, is how many people started sharing stories of their child that they lost and birthed or even at a young age and that impact and just it's more common than people think and back in the day you just didn't talk about it so when like Chrissy Teigen when she lost her baby and she was honest about it she was like I'm doing this just so that

people talk about it more and I'm like why we're in 2021. This was last year. Why don't people talk about it more? Why is there such a stigma and a shame? And it's not, it's just, like I said, I think it's because people are uncomfortable with the loss, other people, other people. So my advice to anybody that knows somebody that is losing or has lost is just, you don't need to fill the silence. Silence is great. Just tell that person, you know, you love them. I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm here for you. What can I do? You don't need to fill it with things that you think they want to hear because they don't want to hear it. And if they want to talk about it, let them know it's a safe place to talk about it. Because I love talking about it. We are parents of three, but we only publicly really speak about two

because what are we supposed to say? Because if we say, yeah, we have three children, they'll say, well, where's your other one? And it turns into this whole thing and nobody knows what to say, you know? So there's guilt in that all the time. But I will tell you, we are extremely proud of all three of our kids.

I never thought about that. That's gotta be so hard. Like how many children do you have? And your heart wants to say three, and then you used to only say two, and then that probably feels really lucky. It does. So being able to talk about him and share our story about him is just, it's so good. And I thank you guys for allowing us to talk about it, especially allowing him to share his perspective on some things I will say this coming out of this the the blessings everything

and I'm a firm believer of this everything happens for a reason no matter how good how bad it's the mystery of faith you don't have to understand it, but how to go through it. So my oldest nephew lost his first boy. And we were able to, well, I was able to help his wife and it was just through text messages, you know, have hope it will never go away. It never goes away, but it gets easier. I have to say, I was a little shocked. I've known Angelica and Billy, you know, for a very long time. So Shanna, you're pretty private people. You're not like me. You don't just throw all your shit on social media. So when you started posting every year, a picture of Dylan with a pretty lengthy post about what it was like to lose your child and to lose him. I was shocked because that's not typically the Angelica and Billy I know. But when I was seeing the way people were receiving it, then I knew why you were doing it. It was for that very reason, that intention to let people know that it is okay to talk about. And i felt like that was exactly what was done yeah well

still celebrate it and it lets other people know that it brings it to the forefront even for a moment where people are like okay they understand and for that post or those posts i take that's truly for everybody else a way to open our lives up a little bit and say you're going to get through it and it goes back to the blessings because if we wouldn't have gone through that stuff with dylan we would have never had page i mean page came literally right on the hills talk about rainbow baby how they say your next baby after your loss is the rainbow baby. I must've gotten pregnant with her in February because she was born in December of 98. So I was like, I'm what?

I'm pregnant. What the heck? Because this one won't leave me alone. That's the other way around. This one can't. I'm like, oh my God. I know it's hard to believe, Shanna. She can't get enough of this.

I don't know what that is. I'll tell you this. Loving your kids deeply, and I think every parent loves their kids deeply, but when you lose a child, I think you appreciate the moments a little bit more because you know they could be bleeding. When she got pregnant with Paige page that was probably the most terrifying year of my life and god bless her i mean the steroids you guys probably don't remember this remember how big angelica got we have a picture yeah because i got pregnant again as well

and i was pregnant. The three of us were pregnant at the same time. At different stages. Yeah. I literally was 200 pounds when I delivered Paige. Huge. Yeah. For our listeners, Angelica's tiny.

She's not like an Amazon like me. Me and Shanna are really short. So 10 pounds is like, what the hell is happening? Let me ask you this. Isn't this against the doctor's advice? No, we hadn't gotten there because we were doing, we were going to do some genetic testing. We were, had been doing blood tests and stuff. And they had said, if you want to do this, let's get you on steroids first.

Let's get you on vitamins first. Let's get your body, your immune system up as best as it can be and then hope for the best so when I got pregnant I was like what the hell and so I was scared terrified but my doctors were so good I went in every two weeks for an ultrasound and anytime I felt a pain anything come on in it's okay you're not crazy it was oh my god it was the best experience I went to the emergency room twice I can't I don't know what's going on what's happening and they're like you're okay first trimester I went in every week then I went in every two weeks and then it was once and then my third trimester it was once a month so I had

the best care and everybody was making sure it was okay. I ate like a freaking, I mean, I ate all the time. The steroids make you hungry, you know? And I was like, I'm just going to get fat. I don't care. But I did not let myself bond with her until I hit the 28 weeks. And that makes me feel bad and guilt, but she's amazing. Paige is amazing. An amazing, beautiful soul. The best child to have after that. It was like God said, Dylan's not ready, but this, the soul is ready.

I'm going to give you her because he's not ready. It's not his time. So that got induced. She was healthy and she's still healthy. She's not ready. It's not his time. So that got induced. She was healthy and she's still healthy. She's never nothing. She's just beautiful. Perfect in every way. Like I said, you appreciate him more.

So literally for the first, almost probably the first year of when Paige was a baby, I had her sleep on my chest every night. He was scared to death if something would happen. Yes, it was not for her. It was 100% for us, but I knew

right here that nothing was going to go wrong. Nothing was going to happen to her. I think it changed our pairing of what I think we were probably parents. From that standpoint, we were so afraid of that loss again. Yeah.

Made us the parents that we are. Feeling that unconditional love, even though he didn't live very long. That was a gift from him. That overwhelming, just unconditional love for your child I had felt that I knew it and he gave that to me and then when Paige was born having that again it changed me I know I wouldn't be the parent I am today had it not been for Dylan because I don't take it for granted not one minute of parenthood because i know what it's like again blessings god's blessing is then we follow up with mitch i did freak out when i was pregnant with the boy

we got the boy but and so i know you guys did one on synchronicity we always say synchronicity because of that podcast i made him listen to it. But I'll tell you, the nephew who came to live with us in Colorado shares a birthday with Dylan. And Angelica treats him more like a son than a nephew. But with having Mitch, you know, you get that sense of how Dylan would be. Now, I will tell you, especially this time of year, like the smell and just time of year, the leaves falling, all that stuff that are the triggers, you still wonder what he'd be like.

We try not to say, would Dylan be like Mitchell? Would he look like Mitchell? Would he, you know, but it's really hard not to, because again, we work with another amazing child. He is just kind and loving. They're both handsome as shit. He's very handsome. When I looked at him, I'm like, would Dylan look like this? Or would he be more fair? Like his dad? I will tell you this. When I was in the hospital with Dylan, I had a dream of a baby boy running up the hill and he was naked and he was a toddler, probably like two ish. And he was just kind of running up the hill and he had nice tan skin and he had like curly light brown hair. And he would look at me, but he was like running up the hill. And that is the vision I have in my mind of what

he looked like. And I think it was his way of saying I'm okay. And when you'd give me messages that he, from him, I mean, it just means the world to me. But anyway, so we're blessed with two children, two healthy children after him. So there is hope for anybody who is, knows somebody who's going through this, that you have to have hope even in the darkest of times. Paige did restore our hope. I was really in a bad place until she was born. She restored our hope and our faith. Definitely filled a void, and a void that will never be 100% filled. But she definitely helped fill a void.

And you guys were so you guys are so amazing parents I mean Angelica we spent Paige's first years that together we did it was so fun all the classes if you and I remember you being depressed actually and you went from someone where every time I hear certain songs in my car I'm like like, I start dancing. I'm like, Angelica, you know, being devastated. And I, you know, that's just not who your soul is. Your soul is so vibrant and happy and full of light. And then to see you, you know, shine again, you and Billy, Billy doting over Paige. She is a daddy's girl.

Yeah. Yeah. I find it so intriguing and absolutely amazing that Dylan was strong enough to hold his little arm up and hold your finger. He had a little soul in his body. And like, did you feel his presence of his personality? No doubt. Yeah. No doubt.

What did you feel like his personality was spunky right that for me so so much spirit yeah it was and it's again tough putting the words or articulate but he gave me a sense that it was going to be okay it was going to be okay. It was going to be okay. Wow. That's I just got chills all over. Oh my gosh. Like maybe he, um, lived as long as he did to, you know, like everything happens for a reason. I don't know if there's a lesson, but it was like, I'm holding on for you guys because you needed me and but I've got to go and so yeah I think he would have been spunky he probably would have been my naughty child because Paige and Mitchell are so good he probably would have been the hellion you know like just and I don't care I would have it would have been good how do you guys celebrate Dylan with your two children now?

Like, have you talked a lot with Paige and Mitchell about him? And do you have any things that you do that help you with healing or to honor him and to talk about Dylan with them? Paige more so is in tune with him because when she was born, we were so fresh off of that, that we talked about him all the time. And so she says she feels him more than Mitchell. You know, I think he definitely shares in our stories about him, but he doesn't celebrate him like we do.

Paige will post, Mitchell won't. Mitchell doesn't post on anything. Yeah, he doesn't post anyway. But I will tell you this, there's nobody that's important to Mitchell or Paige that doesn't know Dylan's story. They know that they have a brother. I think for them it's difficult because they know how much pain it brings us. Yeah.

But we'll always be a family of five. And now it's time for Break That Shit Down. I'm going to switch it up for y'all today. I'm going to ask Angelica to leave any last words for maybe that woman out there who is struggling with her pregnancy or the loss of a child. Maybe just some words that you feel

on your heart to say to her. First and foremost, listen to your body. You know, I think deep down that there's something wrong or you need more attention and be persistent and know that if you do suffer a loss, that there is hope. Hang on to that. No matter how dark it gets, it will get better. I don't know what that means for you, but it can. And have your close circle of friends around you that you can rely on, that you trust. It could be 1%. It could be 2%. Don't worry about how you grieve. Don't worry about being judged. Grieve, grieve for God's sake, grieve in every possible way you can, because when you hold it in, it does no good for you. Let everybody know, you know, whether it's, I'm not talking to anybody,

I need two days to myself or yell and scream at everybody and they should forgive. And, and don't be embarrassed or ashamed of it because my gosh, being a mother, whether you have your child or not is a gift. It is a gift. Thank you. And, and Billy, I'm going to ask the same, just anything that's on your heart that you want to say maybe to that man out there that doesn't know the right words to say to his wife that might have just lost their child or to that man who is sitting there having to make some really shitty fucking decisions or to that man that doesn't know how to heal? What would you say to that father? Don't take it on yourself. I think this is just men. They push it all down, make it go away with time.

And something like this is for you to be strong, for you to be who you need to be for your spouse. You got to be able to discuss your feelings and not internalize it so much. And you're going to second guess every decision that you make. There's consequences to no matter what the decision is. But stand true to your values. It's tough because for men in general, you don't talk about those things.

You don't. Don't be afraid to talk. Don't be, yeah. Be open, especially if it's just with your spouse. I think that's what tears couples apart, Mandy, is that the men might not want to talk to the woman because he's trying to be strong for her. Then they hold everything inside. That's a lot of weight for a man to hold, you know, a lot.

But for your listeners, really, you're not alone. Losing a child is the worst club that anybody could be a member of and nobody should be. But you're not alone in this. It is very lonely and isolating, but you're not alone. There's so many groups out there. If you need somebody to talk to who doesn't know you, get ahold of me. I mean, I am there for anybody day or night to go to it because you're not alone. Even if it's just to listen to you cry and not judge and not say anything. You guys are awesome. I heard you both say is intuition, you know, listen to yourselves, listen to your gut, your, your truth, your morals, your values, your God, and intuition, trust yourselves. I love that you guys brought that up. You guys made it because you guys

communicated, you know, after I was in ICU and I got home, Kurt didn't talk to me a lot and he was very distant. And I built up resentment towards him for that thinking it was because he didn't care. And then years later, when we finally talked about it, he said, no, it was just, he was internalizing it all. And he didn't know what to say and that he didn't know what to do and that he was going through his own trauma. And so it put a big block between him and I for a long time until we finally communicated about it. And then it dawned on me, holy shit, he was going through trauma too. And so thank you for coming on today, Billy, so that people can get an understanding that it is just as fucking hard for the man and that you grieve just as much and so that's why i'm so glad that our episode before got lost into fucking outer space because

you're on today yeah well next episode shanna mandy it's got to be more happy. Okay, so Billy wants to be a regular on next episode. The male perspective. Wait, hold on. What is it going to be on, Billy? Tell us. Conception. Let's talk about how we made the baby. That brings smiles to my face.

Let's talk about you and me. I am so jealous of freaking Georgia. damn you guys for leaving I know we miss you guys terribly yes you guys seriously from the bottom of my heart I I knew this was going to be difficult I'm so sorry that brought tears but I'm so grateful that you were able to come on and share this story with other people and listeners. If you know anyone forward this episode to them, it's really, really an important one and means a lot to me. And I know to Billy and Shanna and Angelica too. So you guys, thank you so much for coming on Sins of Soul.

We love you so much. Love you. Thanks for being with us today. We hope you will come back next week if you like what you hear don't forget to rate like and subscribe thank you we rise to lift you up thanks for listening