Sense of Soul - Stop People Pleasing

Episode Date: November 16, 2020

We had so much fun having Amy E. Smith on Sense of Soul Podcast. No rules, just rawness and full of wisdom!  Amy E. Smith is life coach, speaker, (whiskey- drinker), self love expert, fellow podcaster of The Joy Junkie Show an all-around badass who specializes in teaching peeps how to love yourself!  Join us as we chat about how to embrace who you are, stop people pleasing and do this without being a Dick!!  She’s the author of the amazing workbook that every one needs “ Stand up for Yourself without Being a Dick” get your copy for FREE at her awesome website! www.thejoyjunkie.com If you want to support our Sense of soul Podcast you can do so by giving us a 5 star rating, leaving us a comment and follow it subscribing! Thank you so much!!  Also check out our new Ancestral Workshop CLEAR, and the brand new Empath Workshop both includes 1 hour of personal (via Zoom)coaching! Sign up we would love to meet you! www.mysenseofsoul.com

Welcome to the Sense of Soul podcast. We are your hosts, Shanna and Mandy. Grab your coffee, open your mind, heart, and soul. It's time to awaken. So today on Sense of Soul, we are so excited. We have Amy Smith. She is a certified confidence coach, a masterful speaker, and a personal empowerment expert. She is the founder of thejoyjunkie.com. Amy uses her roles as a coach, a writer, a podcaster, and a speaker to move individuals to a place of radical personal empowerment and self-love, which you know Shanna and I love. She has a e-workbook called Stand Up For Yourself Without Being A Dick that's about how to radically improve yourself and your self-confidence. She's badass. She's freaking hilarious. I'm almost scared what you

might hear between the three of us today. So disclaimer, you might not want to listen to this episode with your kids in the car. Welcome, Amy. I feel like I should have that disclaimer around me pretty much all the time. Oh my gosh. That's funny. And we share the same birthday, Amy. Oh really? We do. Cool. I love that. We've had, it seems like a lot of the women that we connect with as guests, we're all Tauruses. You attract what you are. Apparently. Good night. Oh my gosh.

I love it. That's great. We're a bunch of sassies on here. I'm pumped to be here. I already just adore the two of you so much. Thank you. Thanks for being with us. We're so excited.

It's a pleasure to have you with us to talk about all of Mandy and I's favorite topics. Awesome. Let's do it. Yeah. So what led you on your path to helping others discover their joy? Yeah. Like many of us, our story really shapes what we end up being able to teach about and share about. And I know like with near-death experiences, like that ends up becoming, you know, stuff that you're able to really teach on and speak to. And so my situation is, is very similar. I grew up in a extremely conservative born again, Christian family, very dogmatic. And my father had a master's in divinity and a doctorate in ministry. So he was clearly not fucking around.

Just for a little bit of context, I had two younger brothers and I was by all accounts, the good kid. My brothers were the opposite and both of them ended up having trouble with the law and all sorts of crazy stuff. I think everything kind of came to a crescendo for me in 07 when my father had passed away. And prior to that, I had always kind of twisted and contorted myself in order to make sure that I still came across like I was a part of the faith and all of those things. So what that looked like is when my husband and I would visit my family, I would kind of say, okay, no, no liberal agenda. Okay. No John Stewart, no South Park, no Howard Stern, whatever it was. It was like, okay, no drinking, no smoking,

no cussing, no doing any of that. And so I was kind of having this facade all of the time. So the day of my father's service, this was in 07, my background was in makeup artistry. So I knew that I for sure wanted to do the makeup for his viewing. Like dead dad makeup. Yes. I felt like it was a dick move to be like, oh dad, get your own makeup artist. When I totally had that skillset, I found, and I also felt like it was a very spiritual process and connection to do that. So I do the makeup for the service. I speak to the crowd of like hundreds because he was incredibly impactful in his life and dealing with all of the laying on of hands and speaking about stuff that I didn't

subscribe to any longer. Needless to say, I felt like I was winning at daughter, right? Like I was winning at daughter that day. We get home to my mom's house and she finds it incredibly opportune to tell me it feels as though your father and I have failed as parents because the three of you are not quote walking with the Lord. And so it was incredibly hurtful for me because I was like, okay, please stop lumping me in with my siblings who are clearly not showing up in a powerful way, but ultimately it didn't matter because if that was kind of the only piece of criterion that really, really mattered to her. So that was sort of a breaking point for me. And I remember the only thing I could kind of muster to say to her was, you probably shouldn't say that to a child. And she said, well, that's just how I feel. And that became

this huge realization to me that if I was constantly putting everybody in front of me, that that meant complete and utter self-sacrifice. And that it's not always an ultimatum. It's not always I either choose you or I choose me. But in those situations where push does come to shove, I'm going to choose me. And that's when I kind of had that epiphany. But then, oh my God, ladies, it was a shit show. Then I became incredibly combative and adversarial. I wanted to talk about everything that we were in opposition about. I wanted to fight.

It was like all of that stuff that I had stifled and hidden and pushed down just came out like, yeah, let's talk about abortion. Let's talk about gay rights. Let's talk, you know, and had to battle with a lot of that. So there was a very long period of time where I was speaking up for myself. I was establishing boundaries, but I was doing it in a very vitriolic way. So it wasn't until many, many years of cleaning up messes saying, I really should not have spoken to you in that way. I still feel very strongly about what I said, about my opinion, but I should not have said it in that way. After many, many cleanups with that, I kind of realized, oh, there is a way to actually be assertive and speak up for yourself and to say,

I actually find that offensive, or I don't share that opinion, or ask an adult child to move out of the house, or ask for a divorce, or have these really uncomfortable conversations and do that with the utmost grace and kindness. And that has now filtered into the work that I do. And it's kind of twofold. It's the internal piece of just genuinely believing that you matter, that your voice matters, that you're enough. It's your worthiness.

And then the external component of, okay, now if I believe that, how does that now inform all of my relationships? How does that inform boundaries, speaking up, saying no, all of the relational elements that we find so sticky? Amazing. Yeah. I have a question about your dad. I mean, like, was that an impactful moment for you spiritually?

His actual passing was far more spiritual for me. So I don't have children. I know that the two of you do. And I, I, this is my personal speculation is that exactly what people are explaining when they talk about birth and witnessing a soul come into this plane of existence. It's so magical and euphoric and on one end of the emotional spectrum, it's on the ecstasy, euphoria spectrum. But I think the intimacy that you feel with the childbirth is the same intimacy that you feel watching somebody's soul leave this plane of existence. It's the opposite end of the emotional spectrum. It's sorrow and sadness and equally as

intimate and spiritual. Yeah. I was with my dad when he passed as well. So I understand that. And I absolutely a hundred percent agree. Were you on your spiritual path? Like, were you already at an awakened point where you could? Yeah, I was. And I was able to walk him through to the end to where I believed. But it's funny because my dad had to have certain things before he passed because he knew he was passing that day. So he called in the Catholic priest so he could confess and he asked us to leave and i'm just like are you kidding me so okay so he was in there a long time so you know we come back in and the priest holds all of her hands and we pray over my dad

and i can't even understand the priest because he speaks, you know, he's very, he doesn't speak English very well. And I almost seriously, I almost busted out laughing. We were like in prayer and I'm like, and I'm looking at my brother going, I mean, I'm surprised my dad wasn't laughing to be honest with you. Cause he had a great sense of humor. When I look back at it, I'm just like, he thought he had to save his soul because of these rules that he believed in. Yeah. It's really interesting. This is quite the dovetail, but I had multiple experiences with connecting with him after he had passed. And there were messages, in fact, right after that happened with his service, when my mom

had kind of basically said, you're a disappointment and a failure. I mean, that was the inference I took. I had this dream where it was like he was between two planes and he was trying to get to me and grabbing at me. And he had grabbed my leg and it was with like desperation. He was saying, I have always been so proud of you. So like, he didn't want me to carry any of that. Yeah. He didn't agree with what your mom said. I'm not, I'm not disappointed. And you know, and what I also took from that is that he was experiencing the afterlife in a way that was very different than the dogma he had subscribed to. And it, it felt to me almost like you're okay with your spiritual journey. You're okay. experiencing the afterlife in a way that was very different than the dogma he had subscribed to. And it felt to me almost like you're okay with your spiritual journey. You're okay. Don't worry about everything we taught you. Thank you for sharing such a personal story.

You are so welcome. One of your more recent episodes I was listening to when y'all were talking about the journey that our souls go on and what we choose. And I think in my youth, I spent a lot of time going, why the hell did I get born into this family? What the fuck is this? Everyone was into sports. I was the girly girl. I think we can contest gender norms these days, but I felt very alienated and my intuition was very strong and that really butted up against a lot of the dogma I was raised with. But I now know, oh, of course I had to be born into that family. Of course I did. I needed to learn that ability to speak up for myself, to find, to excavate for what my own truth was outside of these stoic versions of right and wrong.

And yeah, so, and I think we'll continue to go through that and pick a new body that gives another new lesson that we need to learn. How's your relationship with your mom today? You know, it's really has evolved. It's interesting that you ask that because she, she most recently came out here just a few weeks ago and stayed for about a week. And it was, it was hugely humbling for me because the things that we are convicted about at our core are completely opposite from one another, where my work is offensive to her and her work is offensive to me. You know what I mean? So, and the things that we would literally die for are in direct opposition of each other. So that's, it leaves, it has in the past has left only

surface conversations to, you know, gardening or food or shit like that. As she's gotten older and when she came out, I just felt so convicted with the things that are happening in our nation that I was like, we've got to talk some politics stuff here. And so we did. And I think it was really enlightening for me because I, even in the work that I do and the anecdotes that I share about my journey and things, I had started to really label her and pigeonhole her that she's only this way and wasn't giving enough compassion and breadth to who she really was.

And so there was a lot of kind of humbling moments where I kind of went, okay, you need to give her a little bit more credit, you know, instead of this narrative. Yeah, exactly. I would say it's really a good relationship now, but the same lack of intimacy that you feel when you're not fully aligned with somebody, you know, that's still definitely present. Yeah. Which I wish everyone was aligned with what I believed in because I would have a lot of people to talk to because I'm very limited actually in my real life. So I understand that. Well, I'm really curious, like actually for both of you does that end up manifesting with feeling like you have to hide or not advocate for what you truly believe in front like you know oh anybody who's catholic

is gonna just freak the fuck out if i say something like this or i'm curious for me um i've actually been examining that lately so absolutely i. I mean, I have a couple, you know, amazing friends that truly believe that like gays and lesbians are going to go to hell. And I don't align with that. It feels icky. I just, I look past that. And I remember that she was raised different and that I have to respect her place where she's at on her spiritual staircase. And that it's actually pretty selfish to expect other people to think how you do. So just finding that place of respect and empathy for them and knowing that their journey is their journey. That's right.

I'd say the respect has to go both ways, though. Most people that listen to this podcast or have ever looked at any of my social media I promote self-love and I have been attacked by people from you know who have religious backgrounds saying that I'm promoting self-destruction because I'm promoting self-love and I just don't align with it and I ignore it, but then they kept coming at me, coming at me, coming at me and attacking me for it. And it was like, how? Like, I'm trying to just teach people love, really. You know, there's no, there's nothing evil about loving yourself. That's a problem in America. Yeah. I completely agree. A real freaking problem. And I just, I always tell Amanda, I swear, I have this vision of Jesus just hitting people

upside their freaking head, going over to the other side, going, you're not getting it. You didn't get it. You know, let's talk about that for a minute. So a lot of times people think self-love is selfish because you're saying no to people and you're putting up boundaries to take time to take care of yourself and love yourself. So Shanna and I talk a lot about self-confidence, self-esteem and soul versus ego. What would you say about that topic? And do you think self-love and saying no is selfish? Well, I think that when it comes to love, this is my, my personal belief is that in any realm besides self-love, we would never say that love is wrong in any way. Like love for your children, love for a partner, love for family, love for a community, love for your heritage, love for your passions and the work that you do. So why on earth would love for self be a negative thing? And I personally feel that that is rooted in a lot of

the patriarchal norms that have flowed through as a massive current in most religions. And so, and I also think disproportionately as women, we are taught that, especially, I mean, it's a little bit different now with millennials and Gen Z, which I'm so grateful for, but X and older, it's like, oh no, no, you, you don't rock the boat. You don't cause a storm. You don't, you know, as you just make sure you don't hurt anybody else's feelings. We have a bunch of idioms for it, but I think more than anything, it's this notion that I need to be the guardian and the caretaker of everyone else's emotions. I'm responsible for how people feel. And that's a fallacy. It's just

simply not true. We can't, we can always be mindful of our impact and the energy that we are sharing. And we can also feel energy in return, but all we can do is take responsibility for that. I also did, I did a podcast ages ago called why selfish is the New Black, because I think that what we need more is people genuinely tapping into self instead of being so concerned about what everybody else thinks. Now, are there a bunch of people who are self-serving? Sure, of course. But the people that I engage with, and I'm assuming the community that you're a part of, the epidemic is far more people not loving who they are, not believing that they matter, not believing that their voice matters or that they're intrinsically worthy. I think we need more of a shift into taking care of self because

genuinely we are better mothers, sisters, friends, colleagues, entrepreneurs, investors, whatever role you have in your life, you are far better at that role if you are taking care of self. And I also feel, on a spiritual plane, that this body is the only vehicle that I have to move this spirit around this planet. So I need to take care of this body. I need to take care of this spirit that I have to move this spirit around this planet. So I need to take care of this body. I need to take care of this spirit. I need to take care of this mind in order to do the best work that I can do. And to me, that's not a self-serving piece, but I think it can be both, right? Because that's fulfilling for me as well. I feel very strongly that women in particular need to stop apologizing

for anything that brings us pleasure, including loving ourselves. Yeah. I loved that. How in your workbook, you talk about stop apologizing and over-explaining. Yes. Yeah. That's a way in which we undermine ourselves and we do it in a litany of different ways. But that is one of the places where we go into over explanations for things like if you can't make it to somebody's event that they invited you to, or your kid's class wants you to bake a bunch of cookies for some event and you don't, you can't do it or don't want to do it even. And then we think we have to come up with this massively noble excuse why. And so we over-explain like, oh, well, and I've just been under the gun and I've had this and

I've had that going on. And all you have to say is, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm not available for that. You know, or thank you so much for thinking of me. Unfortunately, it's not something that I'm able to do and to decline with grace and kindness. So yeah, I think those are those small little places that you can start noticing, when do I over explain? Where and with whom do I chronically apologize? And it's one thing to say, I'm sorry to hear that, or to say, I'm sorry out of a sense of empathy or concern. But I highly, highly suggest that we start changing the semantics around what we're claiming. I hear this a lot, and tell me if you all do it as well, but where if you have to say no to somebody, if you have to decline, whatever the case may be, that we then take on, like I said, take on that responsibility for other people's emotions. And

we go, I feel bad. I feel guilty when you've done nothing wrong. So in those situations, I highly encourage people to change the descriptor. So instead of saying, I feel guilty for needing to say no, or I feel so bad that I'm not able to be there for that person, to say, I feel concern. I feel empathy. I feel love. I feel uncomfortable. Sometimes it's just, I straight up feel uncomfortable.

But if we can start heightening that emotional intelligence, it's less of us carrying the weight for shit that is not our responsibility to carry. with some people I'm telling no to that they've never been told no from me. Yeah. She's not doing well with it. I'm just, you know, and my kids went through this, my partner went through this, where it was like, I had just been that yes mom forever. And then when I stopped, they were like, wait, what? You're selfish. And that was crazy. I've never been called selfish in my life. I've always been just so giving to everyone. But, you know, I, but you know, it's, they get used to it. They do. Yeah. And you know, if anything, I ended up teaching my daughter how to be that and to do that. And now she's one of the first people that'll say, you should go do this mom for yourself. Yes. Which is amazing because had I not shifted that, had I not started having self-love for myself and worth. And, and also I think another big one is self-regulation, start regulating my own life. That was a huge one that I think is so important to demonstrate, not just to your children, to your parents, to your spouse, and to the world. I think you're spot on here. And this is something that I talk to people a

lot about is that it's not all shit and glitter when you start speaking up for yourself and having boundaries and stuff. There are a lot of people who prefer the people-pleasing version of you. They prefer the doormat version of you. And they're used to that. In fact, there's an amazing quote by a woman named Irma Kurtz, and it says, givers have to set limits because takers rarely do. And something that you are pinpointing here is actually a form of gaslighting is, oh no, you're wrong. You're selfish. And my favorite response to that is I really don't appreciate you dismissing my emotions. I really don't appreciate you dismissing me standing up for myself or saying things like, I'm not going to apologize for taking care of myself. You don't have to like it. You don't have to understand it, but I do need you to respect it.

Period. That's strong. I love it. I really liked how you said decline with grace. Since I've started to love myself more and put up boundaries, sometimes they might come off too strong, more like a stone wall. So maybe I need to practice saying I'm more with grace. I always look at it being sort of this

hybrid. On one side, there is sort of my governing principles, which are grace and kindness. And then the other side is assertiveness. And so all three of those things can coexist. And that took me many, many years, as I mentioned, to figure that out. And I also think we get skewed with the messaging too of if you are vocal, if you do speak up, you have to be abrasive or bitchy or in your masculine or whatever. And that's just not true. I'll give you an example. I had a situation where my mom had invited me to a church function that I definitely didn't want to go to. And I can have the sympathy for her in recognizing how painful and how hurtful that must actually be to have all three of your children not believe what you raised them to

believe. Kind of voyeuristically stand outside of it and go, oh man, that must be really challenging for her. And also recognizing that what she was doing in asking me was not coming from a place of malice or ill intent. She wasn't like, oh, let me hurt Amy's feelings. So I said to her, I said, I really appreciate you thinking of me because that's true. However, I've expressed that that's not something that I align with. And I've expressed that multiple times and you continue to invite me to things of this nature. I don't share with you winter solstice stuff. I don't ask you to do tarot card readings with me. I don't, you know, all of the things that she would find just of the devil. I don't talk to

you about Wiccan stuff. And I said, because I respect you. So here's what I can promise you is that if I ever change my mind, you will absolutely be the first to know. But my request going forward is that you let me come to you and that you don't share that stuff with me. I truly hope that you can respect that. And so all of that is incredibly kind, but it's also assertive. It's, I'm not going to carry that, you know? And she has said stuff to me, like, you know, that just breaks my heart. And I'm like, likewise, likewise, mom. And so to really let her know, it also breaks my heart to think of the path that you've chosen. And I respect that it's yours. I respect that it's yours. If I want that respect in return, then I need to embody that. Yeah. That was a good example. It helped me because recently my husband's been hounding me about watching four hours of Sunday football with him. And I would rather be like researching history and other topics. And so I've explained to him that I just don't have interest in that. And so then he twisted it to, well, it's family

time. And the noise bothers my ears. I have a crazy high vibration. And it's been an ongoing argument. He takes it personal when I'm assertive about it. So how does she not be a dick? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is a great one. This is a great one. Okay. So when it's in a relationship like this, most of the time when it is about something like football or the dishes or, you know, picking up the kids or whatever, that's the surface issue. It's not really about football. There's also going to be a root issue. There's a bigger, deeper root issue. But most of the time, especially if you're a Taurus like us, there's some other signs that would also do this, but they want to nitpick how we are right about football, right? Like we want to go on and

on and on about why we are right. But that's not the actual issue. What I'm hearing from you is that he wants time with you. So it's probably what he is requesting. It's either something like that, or it could be something around, I want connection with you in a way that I don't know how to get. And if maybe it's by us having this common interest, he is requesting something else. It's not really just about the football situation. So when you start to examine that, you can do that on your side too, that it's not about football for me. What the root issue is, I don't feel like you're hearing me about how I would prefer to spend my time. And I feel dismissed about, and I'm just fabricating shit here for the example, but I feel as though you might be making me wrong for not having the same

interests that you do. And so having a conversation about that root issue is always far more vulnerable. And so we avoid it. We want to talk about the dishwasher or the, you know, the schedule or whatever it is that we're fighting about, because it's a lot harder to say, I feel a lack of connection with you, or I feel dismissed, or I feel disrespected in this relationship, or I feel made wrong. That's a lot harder to converse about. So let me throw it to you, Maddie. Does any of that hit home? Yeah, absolutely.

You know, his love language is quality time. Yeah. Yeah. I used to be very codependent and needy of him. And, you know And during this awakening, I've found my purpose and I'm in love with my purpose and I can't get enough of it. I've always had a voice, but my voice now is very assertive and could probably come off a little selfish to him. He's craving my time, but he won't sit and do tarot cards with me for four hours either. Yes. Right. And it sounds to me like he may feel like he's not as relevant for you and that he's

afraid of you outgrowing him, but you won't know unless you actually have a really thoughtful conversation about it. And you can't just keep arguing about if it's smart or not to watch four hours of football. You know what I'm saying? It has to be a much deeper thing. So what that might look like to answer your question, Shanna, of like, how do I go about this without being an asshole? Instead of we need to talk, don't say that. Just say, hey, I've been thinking about something and I'd really like to get your thoughts, giving that mutual respect. And then say, so here's my request. that's one of my favorite things to say so that it's very clear about what you are asking I really want to just get this out

it might sound like kind of like a mind dump so my request is you just hear me out first and then I would love to hear your thoughts because people love to interject interrupt and you might have to gently say like hear me out real quick or let me just finish real quick. But then to say whatever's true for you based off of all of that. And that when you express that it's not a way in which you want to spend your time to be made wrong about that is hurtful. And then to make it seem like I'm doing something wrong or not acceptable simply because we don't share that same interest. Here's what I'm making up, right? So that's one of my favorite things to do around communication with people is to say, so here's what I'm making up in my head. I wonder if there could be something where you genuinely want to spend time with me and I'm preoccupied with other stuff that's going on

that may come across hurtful. Am I onto anything with that? And just throw it over there to him, you know, instead of going, you do this and you do this and that's, well, I would want to do that if you wouldn't make me do the, you know, and that nonsense. Well, you know what the defiant asshole in me wants to do? The defiant asshole in me wants to go, bro, I didn't get your attention for 20 years while you were being CEO. You wouldn't get off your phone. You wouldn't connect with me at all. And then I get like this defiant asshole in me where I'm like, stop, stop, Mandy. That's, that's just all ego. Yes. And ego is still a part of us. Ego is still very relevant and very much a part of our process. So if there is any of that

lingering shit, you're allowed to feel that. You're allowed to feel that. I would encourage you to write a letter to that version of him, or I'm sure you've done a litany of exercises, but things like that where you let yourself get that out because it's an emotional residue that's still hanging out there. Someone's taking their power back or just discovering their own strengths and their own purpose. When people start to evolve, I think everyone will go through these hiccups. Without question. But there's also, with what you're saying, Mandy, there is a very real life that you lived for two decades. And there's probably a version of you, a part of you that is vindictive. Like, yeah, you're going to sit there and watch fucking football without me for four hours and see how you feel.

Oh, totally. So you have to address that and feel that in whatever way that you want, whether it's, you know's a massive temper tantrum or journaling or primal screams or beating the fuck out of your bed or a punching bag or whatever, so that you can then have a conversation with him where you can be graceful and kind. But it's when we don't address that emotional residue that we have, that's when we are snarky and a little passive aggressive and like, oh, it must be nice to have a spouse that wants to spend time. You know, that's when that shit comes out because we haven't addressed the emotional

current that's still within us. It's like we've consciously evolved, you know, consciously we know how to handle ourselves and how to have a thoughtful conversation, but emotional trauma lives in ourselves, right? And so there's always going to be something for us to learn and grow. I still notice it in my anger around certain religions and things like that, where I go, okay, there's still more there for me to unpack and trauma for me to heal. There's a difference between not giving a shit about what other people think and then

still allowing yourself to feel the emotions of disappointment, sadness, rejection, criticism. So just because you speak up to somebody, it's usually what I like to call dichotomous emotion, where you will feel equally proud of yourself for speaking up and so sad that you're at odds with somebody or that they rejected you or that they criticized you. So I think we misunderstand sometimes that personal power is not always sitting in the feel good emotions. It's not always ecstasy and bliss and happiness and joy. Sometimes it's, I'm proud of myself and I'm also so sad or embarrassed or grief stricken about how my parents choose to view me now or how my child feels right now,

even though I recognize that's not mine to carry, it's still a shitty thing to experience. And that's why I feel so strongly that emotional intelligence is so imperative to the personal growth experience. Because so often we think, let's say if I get rejected from a dating scenario or in a marriage or a job, I get passed over for a job that I really wanted. A lot of times we take that emotion that we feel, that sadness, that disappointment, and we collapse it with our self-worth. We go, that shitty emotion that I feel must mean that I'm not valuable. I'm not worthy, I'm not lovable. Instead of going, this situation sucks, I don't suck. I'm allowed to feel sadness and feel grief without making it equate my worth. And we do it the flip side. We go, if I'm loved, if I'm successful,

if I have all these accolades, if people tell me I'm beautiful, if they tell me I'm smart, then I must be valuable. Instead of going, no, then that just feels good. Then you just get to experience the emotions that are around those things. You just get to feel happy. It does not mean like, oh, okay, now I am for sure worthy. You just are. Yeah.

And then everything outside of that is a human experience. God, what a difference between those two. Yeah. We're not really taught that. We're taught, check off all these boxes and then you'll be happy and then you'll be fulfilled, which I think for many of us, happiness is synonymous with enoughness, right? Like we're saying, I'll attain these things and then I'll be happy. But what we're really saying is, then I'll be viable.

I'll be a valuable human. It's changing the constant hunt of external validation and changing it to an internal fuel. So I used to be a big time people pleaser. I have to give a shout out to AA when they taught me that, you know, what other people think of me is none of my business. And they also taught me that no one can make me feel anything. I choose how I feel. And that was huge for me. They can't make me feel a damn thing. I choose to how I feel. And that was such a different perspective for me.

So you talk about people pleasing and being highly invested in the opinions of others. Can you just talk about that? Sure. I think one of the things, first of all, is to look at what a people pleaser actually is. Because I have found that there are a lot of people who kind of pigeonhole that definition and they go, okay, that's somebody who has no backbone, who gets walked all over, who's really shy and quiet and soft-spoken and demure and just gets walked all over. And I don't define it that

way. I look at people-pleasing as any time you alter or tweak your own behavior in order to make somebody else happy or to garner approval in some way, and oftentimes at a cost to self, at a cost to your own authenticity or what you really believe or what you really think. I think it's people pleasing to be freaked out about what you're wearing when you go outside to walk your dogs because you're so concerned about what somebody might think about you. That is making sure somebody else sees you in a different way. That's pleasing other people at the cost of your own comfort or your own authenticity. So I think we have to kind of expand that definition a little bit.

But I do also think that it's really important to understand why we do it. Because even if you look at, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, one of our basic human needs is the sense of belonging. Is, you know, after we've kind of taken care of some of our basic needs or safety needs, one of our basic human needs is the sense of belonging. After we've kind of taken care of some of our basic needs or safety needs, then we need to belong. And that stems from our ancestors, where if you were not a part of a group, that meant you would die. That meant impending death. So now we feel the same way when we're not accepted by our family or we're not accepted in our workplace or by our friend circle. Our subconscious lizard brain goes, I might die. Better people please, better make sure they like me, better do all of those things to

be attractive to this specific group of people. So I think knowing that we can at least give ourselves some compassion that there's a piece of our wiring that is searching out approval. And at the same time, acknowledge that we also have developed and evolved as a species. So we don't have to have people's approval in order to live, but it still feels like that, right? It's the same reason why we experienced the same feeling of fear of being attacked by a mountain lion.

And we feel another, a very similar feeling of fear if we think by a mountain lion. And we feel another, a very similar feeling of fear if we think our house is going to be foreclosed on, right? We're not actually about to die the way we would if a mountain lion was there, but we still have a lot of that same emotional residue, you know, that response from how we used to operate. I think giving yourself that compassion that, hey, there's a reason why we do this. And then to recognize, oh, okay, I don't have to get this person's approval or make sure that they like me in order to survive. And then the emotional intelligence piece comes in and to think and feel, okay, that can also hurt

if somebody doesn't like me or doesn't approve of me or wants a divorce or wants to fire me or whatever it might be, that you can still allow that pain. You can allow that hurt and process that without collapsing it with this sense of self. So I think as far as like a tangible step of what to do about it, what I would first start to do is an inventory in your life. One of the easiest ways to figure out where are you people please is to do an inventory of what and whom do I complain about the most that I don't take any action on. So a lot of times if we are really frustrated with our partner, our best friend gets an

earful. Or if we can't stand our in-laws, our sister gets an earful. Or somebody else is hearing about your grievances and all the things that you're pissed about. But if you're doing it consistently and you're not bringing it to the party who can actually make a difference, it's likely that you are twisting your behavior and not really showing up and addressing what needs to be addressed with the parties that are involved. So just that quick little inventory, you can start going, oh, I'm always complaining about my boss, but I'm not doing anything about having a conversation. And those are usually the

situations where you're people pleasing. I've done so much work on codependency and just you saying that and you just taking just a quick look at my inventory. I thank God I am free from that because I wasted so much freaking energy. One of the things about codependency that I didn't even realize is it was such control. I was trying to control by people pleasing. I was trying to control, you know, the more I do for them and the more I get them, the more they're going to love me because this was generations of this as well. Or, you know, I sense that they're, they're hurting because I'm an empath. So I'm going to fix them. I don't know if you, if you all hear this a lot, but I hear from a lot of women in their 30s, 40 being authentic and honest and saying what's true for us,

speaking up for ourselves, having boundaries, then what the hell do you think you're going to attract? Even in friendships, even in dating scenarios, you're going to attract people who are also either fine not being totally honest or who want to take advantage of it. That's oftentimes what we manifest. But I have this colleague of mine who often says people pleasers are fucking liars, which makes me laugh so much because we have this idea. Her name is Brooke Castillo, by the way. We have this idea that people pleasing is so noble

and so honorable because we're taking care of everybody else, but we're being liars. We're being total and complete liars. And I feel that chronically and consistently placing everybody in front of yourself is poison disguised as nobility. We think it is so noble and honorable, but we're just being a bunch of liars. We're not allowing anybody to really know who we really are. And it is obviously incredibly uncomfortable. Like you were saying, Shanna, you're carrying all of these thoughts of how can I manipulate this situation? How can I tweak and alter who I am to control things? And it doesn't mean we can't want a specific result. Of course, we're always going to want somebody to see it our way or to

agree with us or to find favor with us. That's not a problem. The problem is when we do everything to tweak who we are and live in authentically to try to yield that result. That's when it becomes, you know, such a severe problem. So I will encourage people to create a new definition of success. So for example, Mandy, if you had this conversation that you're going to have with your husband, right? That's on the books. Like I'm going to have this conversation. Of course, our normal definition of success would be, I want him to agree with me. I want him to see it my way. And I want him to be super open and receptive. And I want him to do all of these things. We have zero control over that.

So if we change that barometer of success and go, okay, this will be successful as long as I speak up for myself, as long as I'm really kind, that I don't hulk out and start to yell and scream, as long as I am thoughtful and prepared and assertive, but gracious and compassionate, then I will be successful. That's very, very different than they need to do this thing in order for me to be happy. The way I was kind of looking at it was like, that's his shit, not mine. I'm not going to carry it. And then just leaving it at that. And that can feel not very graceful.

It'd feel like a stone wall rather than me validating his feelings and sitting down and having an authentic, genuine conversation with him. Well, this is where I call this when self-help goes bad. When we have boundaried up so much that we forget compassion. We forget to... I'm going through that with my mom right now. Really? It was my oldest daughter that came to me last week and she was, you know what, mom?

You're not showing a lot of compassion to her. She was like, you would never treat your clients like that. I was like, damn, never treat your clients like that. I was like, damn. You're right. So I was really trying to bring down those boundaries to be a little bit more emphatic. Shanna, I call that getting a humble pie thrown in your face. For sure. For sure. I think it's kind of scary where our world is turning right now because a lot of people are just making these very strong boundaries and avoiding these authentic, genuine, deep conversations. They're like, I will not talk to politics. I will not talk Black Lives Matter. I will not talk, you know, COVID data. And so what

teaching is to shut down and not to have a voice. There's a fine line there, don't you think? I do. And it's very sticky and there's no blanket right answer. It really is a different right answer in every single scenario. And I think it also comes back to your values and what matters most to you. For me, I feel like the only way that we are going to affect change around anything that we're passionate about is to engage in thoughtful conversations that are most likely to elicit a positive response from someone else. But we also need to set ourselves up to be in a healthy environment because if at all the other person becomes combative or is yelling and it's screaming at you, then, then it's like, you know what? I'm happy to discuss this stuff with you, but only if you're willing to do it in a respectful way. I understand that you're passionate about it, but I'm not going to tolerate being spoken to in that way. I think that's really, really important. And we're also

all at our wits end. 2020 can eat a bag of dicks. It has been so hard for all of us. And I also think our emotional bandwidth has been stretched to the max. So I also think there's a piece of self-love and self-care of recognizing I can't have one more conversation like this. There's so much emotional attachment because everyone has their own experiences. Yeah. And that's why, again, I really feel like self-regulation, it's recognizing what do I have space for? What do I have room for? What are the most productive and thoughtful conversations that I can have and with whom? And what can and can I not carry? And that's different day to day. I mean, we're all in right now a collective low-grade trauma, right?

All the time. It's not acute like being in a car accident or something like that. But it's a consistent trauma that we're all feeling all the time. And that zaps our energy and what we're able to converse about. I feel a little more lenient on more stoic boundaries right now because I feel like everybody, a lot of people are at a breaking point of I'm about to erupt. I'm not sure if you all are seeing this as well, but new trauma kicks up fucking old trauma. So if you've ever been in a situation where you've had a lot of fear, you've had a lot of mistrust, you've had a lot of lack of control, if you've ever had that before in your life,

and we're dealing now with COVID or we're dealing with social unrest and injustice, it will kick all of that back up. So it's not time to learn how to bake bread, everybody. It's time to go to therapy. It's time to start dealing with that shit, right? And now it's time for break that shit down. Well, I think one of the things that we've been dancing around a lot here with the people pleasing is this notion of what's your responsibility and what's not. So I operate under this mantra that I say all the time, which is you are responsible for your intention, not your reception. And what I mean by that is you are responsible for who you are being, how you show up, how

you behave, what you do and don't say, that is all on you. But the way in which that is received, which is all across the board, some people are indifferent, some people love it, some people hate it, all of those things are not yours to carry. So starting to operate under this idea of what would it look like if I just held that responsibility for my intention instead of the reception, asking yourself, how do I need to conduct myself in order to be proud of the woman that I am, the man that I am? Ooh, damn, that was good. Yay.

Oh my God, I love it. Freaking rad. Yeah, you are a powerful woman. I think that people should definitely check out your podcast. Why don't you tell them about your podcast and your website and what you got going on right now to offer our listeners? Sure. Well, I have a wealth of freebies that I would love for you to come start stalking me out. So my little hub, my corner of the internet is thejoyjunkie.com and junkie is J-U-N-K-I-E. And you'll find that I have a free workbook. Also comes in audiobook form. My husband and I do a weekly podcast. It's called the Joy Junkie Show. It's on all major platforms. I think we're on like episode 365, something like that. So just a myriad of tips and tools and

stuff like that. So I would be honored if you came and check that out. Also, if you go to thejoyjunkie.com slash anxiety, I have a free hypnosis track that's all around anxiety and fear, which is really helpful for people who've been in that place lately, especially with quarantine and things like that. So lots of free shit. There's also a free workshop too, but everything can be found over at thejoyjunkie.com. Awesome. Thank you ladies so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. We appreciate you putting yourself out into the world and thanks for the free therapy today too. You're welcome. Thanks for being with us today. We hope you will come back next week.

If you like what you hear, don't forget to rate, like, and subscribe. Thank you. We rise to lift you up. Thanks for listening.