Sense of Soul - The Art of Retelling History

Episode Date: October 8, 2021

We had pleasure of talking with  Matthew Schultz on Sense of Soul Podcast, he is the Director of the Writing Center, Adjunct Associate Professor of English at Vassar College and author of the novel; We The Wanted, beautifully illustrated by  Jordan Lepore. This book is a creative tell of history, a gothic tale of isolation, the consequences of disbelief, and the monsters that lurk beyond the pale of civilization hoping to lure us into their darkness. Shining a light on the mysterious and tragic history of the American Northeast.  His other books mentioned are On Coventry and Joycean Arcana: Ulysses and the Tarot de Marseille. Get We, The Wanted here! Follow on IG @Matthew_A_Schultz Visit us at www.mysenseofsoul.com Join our Patreon to learn more about Shanna’s ancestral journey in her exclusive mini series, join our Sense of Soul Scared Circles, live readings, Mande’s RAW, earn merch and much more! 

Welcome to the Sense of Soul podcast. We are your hosts, Shanna and Mandy. Grab your coffee, open your mind, heart, and soul. It's time to awaken. Today we have with us Matthew Schultz. He is the director of the Writing Center at Vassar College, where he teaches courses on literature and writing. He is also an author, and one of his books really caught my interest because of my ancestral roots. It's called We the Wanted. It's a beautiful, fully illustrated, creative gothic tale of isolation, the consequences of disbelief in the monsters that lurk beyond the pale of civilization, hoping to lure us into the darkness, shining a light on the mysterious and tragic history of

the American Northwest. And we are super excited to have Matthew with us today. Hi, Matthew. How are you? It's so nice to meet you. I'm well. Nice to meet you, Shanna. Thanks for having me. Oh, thank you so much for coming on. So I'm originally from New Orleans. Okay. And when I did my ancestry DNA test almost four years ago, discovered I had Marie LeBeau in my tree. I know. Gavin with J.B. Hunt Publishing had posted on their Facebook, the book We The Wanted. And I was like, holy cow, this is much like what I've been going through and discovering in my ancestry. So Gavin, we have to have him on. Great. I'm excited to talk about it. And the illustration of We The Wanted is beautiful. Who is the illustrator? Jordan Lepore.

Jordan Lepore. Yeah. Very interested to hear, you know, why you chose this story to tell. Let's jump into it. What was your inspiration behind this book? Sure, so by trade, I'm an Irish studies scholar. I write about Irish literature sort of in the late 19th century, early 20th century, and the thing that interests me about that work is the way in which Irish artists are using the recent history and their mythological history to essentially rewrite modern history. And so I was kind of interested in thinking about this character who becomes Patrick Gallagher in the novel We That Wanted escaping from the famine and kind of coming over as an emigrant on these coffin ships. This is all in the literary history that I'm well versed in as a scholar. And so essentially what happened

was I got him to this side of the pond and my writing process is very, well, let's come up with a character and see what happens. So I got him onto this side of the pond and I needed some plot, right? My first novel, just to give you some background information, which will sort of give you a sense of how I do the research for this novel. So my first novel on Coventry is also a historical novel set in Cleveland, Ohio, using my own family lineage to kind of uncover this multi-generational story. And so I'm very much, when I'm writing creatively, very much a historical fiction writer. And so I began kind of thinking, well, what else is going on in the world about the time of the Great Irish Famine, when all these folks are coming over to North America, and, you know, dug a little bit into

the history and just started reading about Marie Laveau, sort of looking at her family tree and seeing where that went. And I noticed in the historical record that, you know, she had a bunch of children, she had one daughter. The historical record says this daughter died, maybe went missing. And so I just kind of thought, well, what if she didn't die? How can we spin out a historical narrative around this character in a really rich time period in terms of storytelling? And so this is how my character, Angèle, came to be. I just imagined, well, okay, so Marie Laveau's daughter didn't die. Here's what happened to her. And eventually I need her to meet up with Patrick Gallagher in upstate New York in this lighthouse. And because another thing that sort of drew me to this story or to this place is I knew the quarantine station at Grosse Isle in Canada very well through my research.

But I thought, well, what happens once folks leave this place, right? What are the avenues they take to get out into the world, whether it's sort of Western Canada or the United States? Lots of folks went down to Galveston, Texas, Louisiana, New York City, of course. And one of the paths sort of took characters through the Hudson Valley, which is where I'm currently living. I teach at Vassar and live in Poughkeepsie. And so I'm really interested kind of in the local history. And what I found is that in the 1700s or 1600s, there was sort of in the area, King Philip's War, right? And the Abenaki Indians cursed the land during this war. And so I put Patrick into this lighthouse in this chunk of cursed land, kind of in the Hudson Valley, really just north of here, more up towards

St. George. And I thought, okay, well, now I need to get Angèle up to Patrick and this cursed piece of land. So how do we get her there? Well, we do it on the Underground Railroad, right, which is sort of conducted at this time. And so I just sort of followed one of those paths, north and east, and was just amazed by the synchronicities along the way in my research. Every time I needed a piece to sort of fit into place to put it all together, it was just there in the history already. Oh, I love that. And that's much how my ancestry journey went, the synchronicities. It was like I was following this little trail of goodies and just kept going, kept going.

And it was so interesting, the history. And I don't know about you, but it was a lot of history that has gone untold. But I was like, wow, people really should know this. As somebody interested kind of in 19th and 20th century history, as it filters to us through literature. You know, I knew some of the stories and some of the narratives and certainly two of the bigger sort of plot lines in the New Orleans section of the book have been told and retold across media. You know, most recently we look at something like American Horror Story and we've seen those stories kind of in there as well. But what I think I didn't recognize

was one, how interconnected everything is, right? So again, like I said, every time I went to a plot point or I needed a narrative turn, it was there in the history for me and it was already kind of woven together. It's as if I was looking at a map and just sort of charting my way through the history rather than really creating new plot points to make everything work. One example of that is about halfway through the book, our characters are working their way up the Mississippi River and they end up in Cairo, Illinois, right? And there's a fairly, you use the term interesting, and I think you're right, but also heartbreaking and infuriating at the same time. And we get to this particular scene, and I think just the absolute brutality that was happening everywhere along that journey, not just in the big city, not just in those really well-worn stories, but, you know, the stories that hadn't

been told, that same level of brutality is showing up over and over again. And so I put a lot of that on display, not to, you know, revel in it, not for shock factor, but just to show that like this entire journey was just steeped in horror. And I didn't set out to write a horror novel per se. I wanted to write a graphic or a gothic novel. I made a slip there and said graphic. The initial plan was also to create a graphic novel. So the initial iteration of this was going to be a gothic graphic novel. But what I found is that my strengths really lied in more of a traditional novelistic retelling. But yes, I'm super happy we got Jordan on board to do some illustrations and some plate illustrations. So that visual aspect of the story is still there and is just terribly haunting.

So I'm sure if you had a moment to peek at some of our previous episodes, you know that we can go like super woohoo. I mean, we talk about angels and aliens, all the way down to people pleasing, like we're all over the charts. And a lot of guests that we've had on would probably say that they believed you were channeling something and a story that needed to be told,

which is why all those synchronicities happened. And you were chosen to get the story out there. And we believe that the imagination is not this space that we have been conditioned to believe is not real, that we believe that it's a space where actually like our higher selves is giving us information or messages. What are your thoughts on that? I don't disagree. This book is interesting in terms of my magical journey. Like I said, you know, I'm an academic and I write literary criticism through sort of a post-colonial criticism sort of lens. I've written a novel on Coventry, which again is really steeped in my own family's

journey from then Yugoslavia to the United States, but still has this historical sort of realism to it. And then I wrote this book. I'm not entirely sure where it came from, right? It's just one of those things. I was like, I kind of want to write a Gothic novel because I enjoy reading them. And the one that I really want to read doesn't exist yet. So I'm going to go out and write it. And this is what came out. I mean, I didn't have a plan sort of beyond that. I sort of started with the first scene. And actually that's kind of interesting because there's a prologue and then an epilogue. And actually, that was a short story.

That was sort of the first idea for the book. And I was going to end it there. And I thought, well, I think there's a lot more here to this sort of contemporary frame that I've put around it. So how did we get to this point? And that's where I use some of my training to go back into the history and unwind this larger story. So without talking too much about the plot of the book, what's interesting about this is I finished the book in the summer of 2018,

I think, and I was walking through campus. And I think a lot of us feel like this when we finish a larger project, just kind of lost, like what's next, right? What am I going to do next? I need a new project to start working on. And I sort of felt like I really exhausted my imagination. And I had used up what I had. And I was walking through campus. And I ran into an acquaintance who has since become a very good friend who said, you know, I've got a podcast that I want you to listen to.

And here, think about some of these things, X, Y, you know, I've got a podcast that I want you to listen to. And here, think about some of these things, X, Y, and Z, to help reinvigorate the imagination. And he was coming from a sort of chaos magic perspective. I didn't have the language to describe it like that. I didn't really know where he was going with it. So, okay, I listened to some of the materials he gave me. And then maybe a week later, we got together just to have a drink and a chat. And he had some tarot cards with him. He had started his path on the tarot. I thought, well, these look really interesting. And as a poet, like I'm really sort of interested in how they work as a poetic device. Oh, but then it starts, right? The cards will start speaking.

And so I started working with the tarot pretty closely. I studied with Camilia Elias, with Enrique Enriquez, and ended up writing a book about the tarot, which is out now through Aradia Academy. And things started to click in place, right? And then I started doing saint work. And now I work very closely with Saint Hildegard, who I think is the one that made this happen, this book happen, right? Wow. Oh my gosh. That was amazing. But it took me two years to reach the place where Saint Hildegard sort of said, right, by the way, you have this book because of me. So let's keep this writing partnership going. Oh, wow. You are so much cooler than we ever thought.

Oh my gosh. As Shanna's best friend that I've known since I was 15 years old, that as she was being led through her ancestral journey, she started speaking and understanding French. It's gone now. I mean, but it was almost like these ancestors were coming through her. Sure. And so I'm going to back up for a moment. What was your personal experience with feelings that you experienced when you did your first book that had to do with your own family ancestry, because it brought me a lot of compassion. And also, it put a lot of patterns in front of my face that I wanted to change. What was that like for you? So writing on Coventry was interesting. My grandmother gave me a notebook that her father had recorded his journey from Yugoslavia to Minnesota.

He worked in coal mines in Minnesota and then sort of moved to Cleveland, Ohio after getting married because he was actually taking his wife to visit Yugoslavia. And they stopped in Cleveland, Ohio, and she had an aunt and uncle who were really struggling economically. So they stayed on there a little bit to help them and kind of that's where the family just kind of put roots down. So I sort of learned kind of why my family was in that part of the world, how they got there, our sort of connection to that place. But in all honesty, I wrote that novel as a scholar, right, that it was intellectualized for me. You know, so much of my training as a reader was, you know, through this postcolonial lens, thinking about structures of power, thinking about kind of, you know, the downtrodden, and I really hyper intellectualized that story. And when I wrote We the Wanted, it was a similar task, right? I was very interested in the history and how these pieces went together and why people believe what they believe and what stories live on and how those get sort of passed from culture to culture and generation to generation.

It was very much a study in a way. And it wasn't until I finished this book that again, right, the magical community began to sort of kick in and push and say, you know, open up a little bit, feel a little bit, let the mood strike you, get in touch with some of that, with some of the emotional work that is behind this. But what's interesting about it, right, in your question is that that all happened when the project was already finished. It wasn't until I was sort of looking back at it, kind of through the lens of the tarot, that I came to the saint work and ultimately started writing some more poetry poetry and then started digging into the sort of emotive side of this. Wow, that's amazing because I understand that for myself,

I've always been more of an art person. I mean, history, forget it. I could care less, care less. But now I've learned so much history. It's like become a part of my like normal conversations because everything kind of leads back in some way. And a lot of the problems that we have today are because we never addressed, you know, these open wounds in history. And, and just even within myself, you know, even within myself and in my family, you know, being a woman from Louisiana, who is now that I know I'm from Creole women, there's a lot there that still lives in me today that I was acting upon that I didn't recognize. So once I recognized that, I was like, oh, well, I don't have to do that anymore you know and neither do my daughters

and so I feel like I really not only learned about history but I actually was able to actually make a real shift in like epigenetics future lineages there's so much healing like I am so in love with Outlander and like any of those shows that I have learned so much history from those, right? Like the Vikings, you know, and then living with someone who's very Norwegian. I'm like, oh, well that makes a lot of sense, but it does. But you're learning history through entertainment or art in some way. And it's amazing. People have never known about some of these things and now it makes them curious. And then they start kind of going down a rocker hole to figure out, know more about society, the more we can connect ourselves with that narrative, I think the more forgiving we become as individuals. You know, we could use a little

bit more of that. So in sharing this story, were you hoping that in today's world, people would learn a little bit about their challenges? Yeah, I mean, I wasn't trying to fictionalize history, right? I'm sort of using the historical record as a motor for the fiction. One of the things that I like reading are those really surprising ways that history sort of weaves into our personal narratives, even when we don't recognize it. And so, you know, for instance, you're talking about yourself as an artist. But when we look at history, there's a way in which we can take an artistic stance towards it, right? That if we think of history as this tapestry and us weaving our threads in and out of it, we're changing the picture of history as we do that.

So for me, history is a fiction. And the way in which it's presented, and maybe this was sort of what I was trying to do with the story on a more sort of meta or intellectual level is present the history in such a way that readers can begin to question for themselves what is real, what isn't real, you know, what has agency, what doesn't have agency. I'm very much interested in ecological fiction right now. So there's a way in which this curse that is put on the land in the Hudson Valley isn't a sort of supernatural curse, but it brings the land alive. Right. And the land becomes its own agent, which I think is something that's really important for us to think about today as the Gulf of Mexico is on fire. Right. Like, how do we begin? You know, if we want to talk about relationships, how do we begin mending our relationship with the planet and one another? And so it seems like a weird book to start that particular kind of conversation. But I think on a larger level, if we start looking at our history in a more

complex and nuanced and interconnected way, then the next step is those sorts of conversations. Mm-hmm. Mandy always says to me, why the hell would anyone want to live on the Gulf where my family is from? So actually that question really had me thinking. I had just visited there with another cousin of mine who also is on, I brought her along with me on this journey. So we go to this little fishing community in Plaquemines, like right at the end of, they call it the end of the world.

1690, there was actually a settlement, a fort there. Fort Jackson was there. You know, very historical place at one point, and many hurricanes taking them out. Many ancestors, I found, died in hurricanes. And then they had some rumors of curses right because curses were actually you know real thing back then especially with you know voodoo then they had katrina which really took them out but then they had bp oil

spill many people believe it was cursed the land was cursed and there was many reasons why you know that it could have been because there's a lot of bad energy right there yeah it's a super interesting question you know why would anyone want to live at this place right not not just that particular place but but any place i read an article in the times that was titled a gloomy day day in New York City is better than a sunny day in Cleveland. And of course, this picks my interest because I'm from Cleveland. Yeah, for you. But I think that we have hardened ourselves as a society into these dichotomies, into these binaries, right? Where this place is better than that place, swipe left, swipe right, you know, black versus white, male and female.

And we're not poised to have sort of the nuanced understanding that those binaries that have been set up culturally can be deconstructed, right? Not just reversed, but completely exploded. I think one thing that we're seeing in, you know, in popular culture right now that's fantastic is the exploded notion of what gender is, right? With it, we're not just looking at things through a masculine or a feminine lens anymore. And I think that that is a model for how we can view some of these other dichotomies as well. Matthew, my question for you is, how does someone that's so intellectual and thinks on that level, get to a place where they can kind of merge and cross over with like the tarot and the mystical and the spiritual, because we've had on a lot of guests that talk about how the two are slowly becoming married. What are your thoughts

on that? And how did you get there? I don't know, right? I think it happens very slowly. And I think that I was just guided to talk to the people that I needed to talk to at the right time. The materials that I needed at that particular moment sort of fell into my lap. And certainly there's a certain amount of openness, right? So yeah, like I've introduced myself as an intellectual, somebody who's questioning everything, who's trained in the hermeneutics of suspicion. But also, like, I was willing to remind myself that the reason I got into this is because I love stories. And, you know, being in academia, my job is to pull those stories apart, explain how they work, so that other people can understand them, can study

culture and society and politics that are connected to them so that other people, if I'm teaching a creative writing class, can reproduce those stories and make them their own. So that's certainly still part of what I'm doing and what my mission is. But also more and more, just reminding myself that like story is a powerful way to commune with the unknown, right? To recognize that there are things that are bigger than us and in a very poetic way to play with that. And so I think this is why the tarot was such an amazing object or entity for me to encounter. Because I could read it like a book, can, I could read it like a book, right? I could read it like a poem, but I could also see how it had its own agency, how it could communicate with me. And if you play with it enough, if you, if you play with anything enough, right? Sooner or later, think if if you're an open-minded

individual you're going to begin to enter into a dialogue with it and then believe what it has to tell you so i think that's that's kind of how it came along plus like i mean i i read exclusively the uh the marseille tarot and for me the the images are just so strikingly beautiful. And they have survived for such a long time in an unadulterated way, right? They've come to us across centuries. And one wonders, like, why? Who is the steward of these pieces of paper? And it's got to be something that's beyond humanity's touch, I think. Yeah. And you know, what's so interesting is that coming from a Catholic background,

okay, this was like, no, like, you know, I mean, I thought Marie Laveau was the boogeyman, for sure. You know, I remember one time saying that I went to the House of voodoo and them like praying on me and putting holy water all over me. And so when my journey kind of went towards embracing my spiritual gifts and kind of connecting with angels and guides and saints as well. And I started to do tarot cards, my very first deck, I was scared to death of it.'d be like what am i doing should i not be doing this why am i doing this what do but as you said you kind of form a relationship with with your deck over time and i have several decks i mean really they all have their own like personality i feel like different guides are coming through to these unique decks as well do you find that

because i have an ancestral deck that i use yeah it's totally different energy than my true deck i don't think so but again for me it's because i read exclusively the marseille deck and so what is that ah so yeah so the marseille deck it's the deck that is not illustrated like the pip cards are not illustrated the trump cards are not overly illustrated so you've got so is it still rider weight kind of like base no no no okay um so rider weight came to us through the golden dawn in the early 20th century and the deck that i'm using um jondo dolls tarot's from leon is coming from 1700 so oh yes i want to see i can this is just the case of it but i'm gonna hold up the i'm gonna hold up the fool just so that you can i think well here's the magician that's

here here's the phone okay so like for instance this is the fool card and it looks like this in every single deck so so different card makers will make this deck with very slight alterations um maybe colors are a little different positions are very different but for the most part if you're talking about the fool in a marseille deck it looks like this if you're talking about the magician in a marseille deck, it looks like this. Oh, okay. The very interesting thing about this particular deck is how well the images rhyme with one another through movement, through color. Oh, so they tell a story.

They're telling a synchronistic story. For sure, for sure. So I don't really feel different energies based on deck because this deck is its own entity in a way that the writer, Wade Smith sort of decks are more the product of a particular artist, right? And their energy that goes into that and the story that they're trying to tell through the images. Okay. So we talk, I've been, this has been on my mind a lot lately, symbolism. Okay or what is something behind the symbol? There's so much energy behind

its intention. So I understand what you're saying. So that particular deck, who created it? So we actually don't know who created it. Oh don't okay we have early decks jean dodal is an early um card maker here there's also a jean noblet deck which i think i'm pulling it out to get the date yeah 1650 so 50 years earlier um we don't know who created it we've just got the cards that were made so different card makers have different takes on it. I'll pull off the Noblet just to give you a sense of it here. But I think what's interesting about what you're saying is that symbolism is so important in those Rider-Waite-Smith types of decks, whereas it's not as important in the Marseille. So when we're reading the Marseille, we're really looking at

function over symbol. So I showed you, I mean, you can't see it in the podcast, but you can see how there's very little difference in the cards. It's just minor differences, mainly in color in this particular card, if we're looking at the pool card. But if you're drawing cards in the Marseille tarot, we could draw something like the emperor, the hermit, and then the fool. And essentially what I would say in this, even without a question, is that a man stands up and walks away, right? It's sort of that simplistic of a reading. So we're looking at the function of what the cards are actually doing. And then you

would take into consideration the question, what does it mean that the cards are showing me this man standing up and walking away with regard to your particular question? Wow. That's kind of a different style of reading. Yeah. Didn't cards originate from just like your regular suit cards? I mean, that's the theory, right? That, yeah. So there were card games in China that sort of, you know, traveled to us, to Europe from on the Silk Road. And then there were the suited cards that you would see. And yeah, the pip cards come from that. And the idea, I think, behind the tarot is that it was initially a game. Again, we don't know. But then it was a game and that the major arcana or the trump cards were part of that pip game as well.

So you would play, you know, an emperor which would be higher than a fool. And you would somehow take that particular round of the game. Wow, that's amazing. Because Mandy and I are trying to, like I said, we just had this idea that was placed on us to do our Sense of Soul Oracle deck. So we thought this would be so fun and in thinking about that thought about god how much love and energy and like all from all over the world that would be put into this and how it's so much more than just a book or cards it'll actually you know have you know wisdom from all of our guests from all over the world. And so that energy, I just thought is probably very unique

product. Right. Yeah. So interesting. I have a question. If you could tell our listeners a little bit about your background and where you teach, and I'm curious, have your students or your fellow teachers that you work with, have they noticed the shift within you and when you teach? Probably not. I'll step back. Sure. So I've been at Vassar College for 10 years now. I've been running the writing center there all of this time. I also teach in the English department and I teach in the media studies department. And so what that means is I'm teaching first year writing classes, creative writing classes, literary criticism. And so what that means is I'm teaching first year writing classes, creative writing classes, literary criticism. And then I also teach this course for media studies,

which sort of looks at storytelling across media and genre. But I don't teach contemporary literature very often. I teach modernist literature, which is about from 1890 to about 1939. And so the interesting thing about this is that that's sort of the time in which media is really taking off, right? We get moving pictures. So we're seeing like poetry and novels and short stories being made into the very earliest of films. You know, we have audio recordings from that time. So it's sort of interesting to see all of the different experimentation happening in storytelling at that time. So that's the teaching that I do. As far as my students seeing a difference in me, I'm not entirely sure. I don't think they probably hang with me long enough, right? Because they're

here for four years and then they're gone out into the world. And then the thing about academia, and this is nothing against, you know, my particular institution, which is a wonderful place. I have only happy and excellent things to say about it, but I think academia more generally sort of silos thinkers into their own spaces and departments. And so the truth of the matter is, I don't really talk about this very much to my colleagues, right? When we get together, we're talking about administrative stuff

to run the college. We don't really, I don't really get to talk about intellectual endeavors all that much. You know, as somebody that works in the field of creative writing, folks are like, oh, he wrote a book, great. Whether anybody reads it is another story.

I have started teaching the tarot in my class. So I've got this media studies class and we're thinking about the way that we tell stories in different media. So what I'm doing is like the spiritual aspect of it doesn't so much get into the class, but I think the cards are okay with that because at least they're being introduced to a wider audience, right? And so

what I'm saying is like this deck, these cards, this is an art object, right? So let's look at it as this art object. Let's learn its history. Let's use it as a poetic device. Let's see how it will turn three cards over and we'll tell a story about it, right? And so I'm giving my students the mechanics to look at a piece of art, interpret it both visually and textually, and then tell a story or create a poem based on that media. And so again, even though I'm not using it for divination in my classes, what I am doing is the same sort of process by which we enter into a dialogue with that art object. I think it's cool. I'm going to go grab, you know, you want to hear something funny is that, you know, in my journey, I'm reading books I've never read before because I'm trying to figure out this history and I'm finding that some of the players in my family are in these historical books. You know I'm reading a lot of Alice Van Bar Nelson, you know, Kate Chopin, George Washington Campbell, and I also picked up a book, I think it's, I have two versions. I think it's called Less Than Now. It's a poetry book of French Creole poems.

So first I get it and it's in French. I'm like, shoot, I don't know French. But then I'm opening it and I'm like realizing that, well, I don't know why, but I can read this. And I'm asking my daughter, like, can you read this? She's like, no. And I'm like, well, that's weird because I can kind of understand what this says. But I did order an English version and you can find out so much history through poems because I mean they're putting in it's not like for educational purposes so you're really connecting with like this history that's not been told in history books yeah absolutely beautiful yeah you mean like more soul behind it, more soul connection? Yeah. Real stories, like raw, you know, and like, holy cow. Yeah. Well, those individual stories

that are interested in the perspective, right, of the artist. And so you're not getting the cultural or social level of history. You're getting the individual history, which allows us as readers to piece together our own sense of, again, that tapestry, right? Here's a piece of the fabric that's missing from the textbook, and now I can sort of put it, weave it in, and get a clearer sense of, maybe not fact, right, but definitely a feeling. Oh, there's some poems that I don't even know where they're from, but I've heard and I even have recited them before. I can't even get through them without completely, I can't, I mean, I can't even speak the words because they move me so much. And those are the moments that I think I connect with my ancestry the most when I'm reading those

really raw, personal, you know, emotional, beautiful writings, it just, yeah, my heart just pounds out of my body every time I read any of those. You've had a spell cast on you, right? Language is a spell. And this is what's happening when somebody is really, here's the process of writing, you know, it's not sit down and just bang out a story, you know, A leads to B leads to C, at least not for me, right? I'm sitting down sentence by sentence and trying to figure out, you know, what is the most impactful way to organize the language so that my reader is drawn in, excited by what's being said, surprised by what's being said, right? Not just surprised by, you know, the horrific history of it, but surprised by how it could be told in an almost beautiful way.

There's this Irish writer, Sebastian Barry, who's a contemporary playwright and novelist. And I remember reading his book, A Long, Long Way. It's about a soldier in World War I. And he's describing this mustard gassing, which is just like, you know, the most evil thing, one of the most evil things that we've come up with. And the language that he used, it was just so beautiful. You couldn't put it down, couldn't look away from it. Like there is magic in that. And so I tend to write my novels in a poetic way where each sentence is important, not just for what it said, but how it is relating that to the reader. So if you ask me sort of like what I hope folks take away from it, it's not even necessarily a philosophical or moralistic lesson as much as it is you know can

you sit and be with the language and just enjoy the way that the sentences are put together in the same way that jordan's artwork is put together right that there's beautiful images right so you're pulling them in yeah pulling you're you're trying to have them empathize with the character and with the situation story with the generation the time period and all that yeah I deeply felt that yeah I was able to read some of your book and so yeah and I can't wait to finish it yeah and I want to read your other book yeah me too thank you so much for taking the time to come on we really appreciate it can you tell our listeners where they can find your books? I think they're all over the place. I'm sure I tend to go to book depository to get my stuff. You know, this is a this is an opportunity to tell our listeners and you a funny story about Shanna. Oh, you sure? Are you scared, Shanna?

Yeah, there's so many that you could possibly tell and you're so vulnerable. God knows what you're going to say. Yeah. I'll tone it down. No, this is nothing dirty. I promise. So Shanna tends to order things online and I was laughing because she doesn't really like read the details. So it doesn't shock me that she ordered a book and she can't even read it because it's not even in English. Because Shanna has like ordered a blow dryer, full size blow dryer, and it shows up and it's like two inches big for her purse. She's ordered a coach purse before that was supposed to be like a big tote and it shows up and it's like a tiny little baby purse. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. It's so adorable.

I started to pay attention to dimensions. Literally, yeah. But don't change, Shanna. I love that about you. And now it's time for Break That Shit Down. The thing that popped in my head, being kinder to all sentient beings, right? So my, one of the goals of my life is to not do harm to animals. And so I've been living as a vegan for quite some time. I know we can get preachy about this, but animal agriculture is like bad

news for the world. So maybe just make some choices, eat some more vegetables today. I'll break that. I'll break all that shit down by saying, just eat some more vegetables today. I love it. I love it. You know, it's all about starting out with simple things. We always think we got to like today, I'm never eating meat again. No, just for today, eat some more vegetables. There you go. I love it. Well, we appreciate you so much. We know that you're a very busy, busy man.

And yeah, we are very grateful that you took the opportunity to speak with us today. This was super cool. Really quick, Matthew, what is your book on tarot called? My book on tarot is called Joycean Arcana, Ulysses and the Tarot de Marseille. That is also probably available on Book Depository, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, that kind of thing. It's from iCorner Press, which is the press run by Camillia Elias, who is, I think, the premier tarot reader in the world today. And so this book is, it's not necessarily on tarot

specifically. What I do is I walk through each of the major arcana and pair it with a character from James Joyce's Ulysses. So a sort of paragon novel of the 20th century. And it gives us a new lens through which to read that novel. So if you are new to Ulysses, but you know the tarot, it will help you read Ulysses in a deeper, complex, more interesting way. If you're new to the tarot, but you know Ulysses, it will help you kind of grasp what it is the tarot is doing. And if you're new to both of them, it's just a cool book. I had a lot of fun writing it. It was really fun. Joycian Arcana, Ulysses, and the Terror de Marseille.

And it also has in it, I was allowed by the estate of Jean-Claude Flournoy, who is a recent card maker who did this Jean Daudal deck. His estate allowed me to reproduce each of the major arcana in it. So it's also a good way to sort of get some really keen illustrations of the Tarot de Marseille if you're interested in that deck. Oh, very cool. Shout out to the illustrator of- Oh yes, Jordan Lepore.

Yeah, Jordan Lepore. Doing great work. I think you can find him on Twitter and Instagram as well. If you go to the We The Wanted page on Instagram or Twitter, you can get to Jordan's account. He does all sorts of different art styles. And I know he just started a web store. He's got some really cute illustrations and some really evil illustrations. So if you're looking for some art, his stuff is just absolutely fantastic. I've got a book of poems coming out in May of next year.

He's doing the cover for that. And I can't wait to see what he's got. Wow. Can't wait. And thank you to Gavin. Yeah. Love Gavin. Thank you so much.

It was a pleasure to meet you. Yeah. All right. Thanks very much. Hey, did you know that Sense of Soul now has a Patreon where you can get exclusive episodes, mini series that Mandy and I have been working on for a long time that we can't wait to share with you, monthly readings, Sense of Soul sacred circles, workshops, behind the scene clips, and much more. Hop on Sense of Soul Patreon right now and sign up. Thanks for being with us today.

We hope you will come back next week. If you like what you hear, don't forget to rate, like, and subscribe. Thank you. We rise to lift you up. Thanks for listening.