Sense of Soul - The Other Side of the Gun

Episode Date: March 3, 2023

Today on Sense of Soul Podcast is Susan Snow she is a Realtor, author, speaker and coach. She’s joining us to share how she turned her pain into purpose. Her message of healing and resilience  gives hope to those suffering with trauma and grief. Susan is the daughter of slain LAPD Detective Thomas C Williams, who was killed in the line of duty October 31, 1985 when she was 17 years old. On Halloween night 1985, Susan Williams’ life changed forever when her father, LAPD Detective Thomas C. Williams, was ambushed and killed. This compelling story of Susan’s (and her family’s) loss and the road to recovery from trauma provides hope and practical guidance for others whose lives have been touched by violence and loss.  Years passed and a second loss impacted Susan before she reclaimed her life, learned how to manage PTSD, and found a path to vulnerability with courage, loss without victimhood, and love with forgiveness. After years of working through this trauma, sometimes more successful than others, Susan strives to help others and today she joins us to tell us about her new book. "The Other Side of the Gun,” from trauma to resiliency, which tells her story from anguish and upheaval to peace and understanding. Visit her website to order her book and learn more: Website: susansnowspeaks.com Visit Sense of Soul at www.mysenseofsoul.com Do you want Ad Free episodes? Join our Sense of Soul Patreon, our community of seekers and lightworkers. Also recieve 50% off of Shanna’s Soul Immersion experience as a Patreon member, monthly Sacred circles, Shanna mini series, Sense of Soul merch and more. https://www.patreon.com/senseofsoul Thank you to our Sponsor KACHAVA, Use this link for 10% off! www.kachava.com/senseofsoul

Hello, my soul-seeking friends. It's Shanna. Thanks so much for listening to Sense of Soul Podcast. Did you know that as a member of Sense of Soul Patreon, you get ad-free episodes? You will also be able to join me in our monthly live circles, listen to my mini-series, and much more. And you will also be helping support this podcast so that I can continue to bring you inspiring episodes twice a week with amazing guests from around the world. You can also show me some love and rate, review, and subscribe from wherever you're listening. Now go grab your coffee. Open your mind, heart, and soul. It's time to awaken. Today we have with us Susan Snow. Susan is a realtor, an author, a speaker, and coach.

She is the daughter of the slain LAPD detective Thomas C. Williams, who was killed in line of duty October 31st, 1985. This high-profile murder put her family in the spotlight no one asked for, traumatizing Susan and her family. And after years of working through this trauma and turning her pain into purpose, Susan wrote a book, The Other Side of the Gun, which tells the story from anguish and upheaval to peace and understanding. And today, Susan is joining me to tell us about her new book. Susan, thank you so much for being with us. Hi, how are you? Good. How are you? I'm good. Nice to meet you finally, Susan. I know. Nice to meet you too.

I always believe that much of our pain turns into our purpose and that vulnerability and sharing your story is like what helps us all connect. Yeah. Well, and that's why I wrote the book too. It was something that was bigger than me. Yeah. Yeah. What was your life like as a child? What did it look like before this tragedy happened? Well, I grew up in Southern California. My life was pretty normal. I mean, my dad was a cop. There was things that come with that, being the child of a cop. I dealt with a lot of negativity around police officers and disrespect even back then.

But my dad was always the one that was just really positive. I spent a lot more time with my dad than I did with my mother. And they were married, but just because, you know, he worked at night, so he was available during the day. And my mom worked in the day and was available at night. So for the most part, even into my teens, I had a normal, you know, life, a little bit of teenage angst. Yeah. So you had a little brother as well. You guys were pretty far apart in age.

Yeah. 10 years and 10 days. So did you almost feel like you mothered him a little bit? Later on. Yeah, for sure. You know, as I got into my teens, and you know, I was 15. And he was five, you know, it was just, he was just the annoying, you know, in my business all the time. Yeah, kind of kid. Yeah, exactly. So yeah. Did I also get this right that your high school sweetheart actually became your husband? Is that right? So it's so funny because my husband was actually in college. Oh, okay. Yeah, we Yeah, he was three years older than me. So he was 19. And I was 16. When we met, you know, we kind of

laugh about it. Now my dad told me and you know, forbid me to date anyone that was not of my same age. But then when I met my husband, he had such a baby face that my dad just assumed he was the same age. And he didn't ask. So we didn't tell. You know, guys mature so much slower than girls do. It's taken me many years to train him. So take us back to the day that everything changed for you. Yeah. So my dad was an LAPD detective. You know, he wasn't a street cop. He was going to court that day to testify in a case that he was working on. But that morning, he was really nervous, like more than normal. It was Halloween day in the morning and, you know, I was trying to help him. He was a wee bit colorblind with browns and blues and stuff. So we were trying to put together his suit. And my mom had already left

for work. She had to get to work early because they were having a costume thing and all that. And I helped him get ready. But I just I was also arguing a little bit with him that morning, just because I wanted to go to a party that night with my boyfriend and some of my friends. And my dad was like, it's a school night. I don't want you out. So it was kind of frustrating. Well, and this is like back in 1985. I mean, they have like that night stalker killing stuff going on at that time too. Yep. Yeah, exactly. But like, I just, you know, I was a typical 17 year old kid and I just wanted to hang out with my boyfriend. You know, he was going to protect me. He dropped me off at school and I was irritated, obviously,

just because I really wanted to go to that party. So, yeah. So I sent him on his way, you know, he said goodbye to me. And so it was just a normal day during the day. I actually ran, I ran home after after school, and I started cleaning the house, doing all the things, you know, because I thought maybe, yeah, yeah, like, if I just schmooze them enough, they'll let me go to this party. And my had come home and she was dressed up in her costume still and I was getting into my costume what were you going to be before you're just it was Madonna guess what I was Madonna too who are you nice yes so I was Madonna that year and um in the phone ring and I picked it up and it was a lady from my brother's school. And all she said was that there was a drive by shooting and my dad was involved.

So I yelled for my mom. She came in, I handed her the phone and I could just see from the look on her face and just her body language and everything that it was not good. So we got into the car as quick as we could and headed to the school. And we had no idea what we were going to see. We had no idea. All we knew that there was a drive-by shooting and my dad was involved. Was he picking up your little brother? Yeah, he was picking up my brother after he had testified. So we got to the school and there were police officers walking around in tears. And we came around the corner and we saw my dad's truck and it had been shot up. And my dad's body,

we saw him and my mom ran towards the truck. We saw the aftermath basically. Oh my God. Forever burned, probably, in your eyes. Absolutely. Where was your little brother? They had taken him away because my dad actually saved his life and told him to duck down in our truck. As he saw it coming, he knew it was going to happen.

So they took my brother away immediately. I'm sure once the police showed up, you know, they were with him. Did you guys live fairly close to the school? Yeah, we were about 10 minutes away. Did the case or that court appearance that he had prior to that? Did that have anything to do with it? Yes. So the guy who he was testifying against was on bail during his trial. And he's the one that drove by with a Mac 10. He was dressed up like a clown. Wow. That is terrifying.

So there's a, my brother has a problem with clowns. Oh my God. It didn't come out until later in the trial that he was dressed like a clown. But after I knew that, then it, you know, my perception of clowns changed a little bit. Right. Was your brother like the only witness? No, there were other witnesses. It was considered a school shooting. It was the first one in Southern California. It was the first time

that a police officer had been ambushed in that way. Yes, kids were in danger. Absolutely. With a MAC-10, the way that the automatic bullets come out, they go everywhere. And so there were kids that could have been killed, but teachers and people around parents shuffled the kids into the school farther into the school because this was on a side street that this happened where parents would come pull up and pick up their kids. And at the time, my brother was in first grade. So there were witnesses to what happened. Yeah. It was a conspiracy of multiple people. So five men were involved.

Three were convicted. And the guy that actually killed my father is sitting on death row right now. Okay. Yeah. How do you feel about that? You know, it's really interesting because until we figured out that he's never going to be put to death, just because there's a moratorium in California about the death penalty. So he will die in prison. And when I found that out, I was really upset about it because my mindset around everything that happened is a lot different than my mother and my brother. When my mother and my brother, there's still a lot of anger especially with my mom just a lot of anger there even 37 years later so she wanted to go see him be executed for her reasons and I wanted

to see him again because I had faced him in court I wanted to see him again and let him know that he didn't win with me. Yeah. It was important to me for him to know that. Like, he didn't win. He didn't destroy my life. I didn't give him that power. Yeah. But, you know, that's not going to happen.

And I'm okay with that, too. I mean, court case that he went to as well? Yes. The initial court case, he was the head of a robbery ring. So he had a whole crew, you know, of guys and stuff. So yeah, he was the main case that my dad was investigating. So you weren't even an adult yet? Just barely? I was 17.

And so how did that affect your life? I can't even imagine. Well, trauma is very interesting. You know, what I know now, as opposed to what I knew then, when something to that magnitude happens and you're a teenager, the unfortunate part was that my mom sent me away that night. Okay. She stayed with my brother and she sent me away. And that was hard. You know, that was really hard because I needed an adult to help me kind of navigate all of these feelings that were happening. Where'd she send you?

She sent me to a neighbor's house. And so the neighbor was the one that consoled me that night. Not my mom. Probably wanted your mom. Did you want your mom? I did. Oh yeah, absolutely.

And, and I was terrified. I didn't know what happened to my brother. I didn't know if he was safe. I didn't know if he was hurt. I didn't know what he saw. Like it killed me. Even though part of me when I was there wanted to run, like I just, I wanted to run away. It's almost like having a split personality because part of you wants to run. Like I just, I wanted to run away. It's almost like having a split personality because part of you wants to run away and like keep running, you know? And the other part of

you is like, okay, I'm a kid and I don't know how to handle all this. And like, I need an adult to come alongside me and support me somehow. Give me reassurance. Let me know that we're going to be okay. And we're going to get through this together. Like I needed that and it didn't happen. And with that though, you know, my mom just lost the love of her life and there was so much chaos going on that night.

And she was probably in the same foggy perspective that I was. Not thinking rationally. After that, it was very foggy. It was very surreal because they didn't catch the people right away. So for an entire week, we had 20 police officers in our front yard and 20 in our backyard. And we had helicopters, bodyguards. I mean, you name it. My life went from a normal teenage family life to this. And I didn't know how to navigate it where was your little brother that night did she keep him home she kept him with her yeah and they went home together

what do you think her thoughts were I mean you're a mother now have you ever thought about that because I mean you know me from the outside looking in and I was just trying to put myself in her shoes of course there'd be no rational thinking I'm sure I'm not judging her however yeah I don't know it's funny that you would say that because we just had this conversation you just had it for the first time in my life, I asked her that question. Oh, my God. Why did you leave me? Why did you send me away? And she really didn't have an answer other than maybe thought she was protecting me. And I left it at that. But it started this process of feeling emotionally abandoned. Yeah, right. And the story was so huge. And we were thrust into the media almost immediately.

It took them two days in the media to even acknowledge that I existed. And I understand because it happened in front of six year old son, right? Yeah. So all of the attention and all of the stuff went to him. And so be it. I mean, he witnessed my dad's killing. But I was like, I had 17 years with this man. Like he was my best friend. And my mom and I did not have a really close relationship at that time. It had been strained for years. And when this happened, I just lost the one person that is my mediator, you know, between her and I. Yeah. Wow.

So, yeah, I mean, it was just a, it was a total flip of my life. Like from going from the normal stuff to all of this and not having the tools or the adults to help me figure things out. Yeah. You know, this is my senior year in high school and all the things that are supposed to be exciting and, you know, all of that. And just navigating that too, without having my dad there, I just took on the persona that I'm just going to have to figure that out myself. I lived with a lot of guilt of, I should have been a better daughter. I should have been a better sister on top of all of the other stuff that I was trying to navigate just being a teenager. You can see it now that, you know, you were a child yourself who wasn't supported. Yeah, that's my book, From Trauma to Resiliency. I don't live with the guilt anymore because I understand that I was a child myself

and I had no idea what PTSD was until I got a little bit older. And when it first happened, LAPD said, we need this family to go into therapy. And so my brother went to therapy. My mother went to therapy and I went to therapy. I can tell you, I was a hot mess express. Like, I was suicidal. My depression was horrific. I walked around pretending that I was holding it together and I was a mess. And I was just yearning for somebody to like, ask me a question so that I can spill it, you know, and it didn't happen for an entire year with my therapist. All he talked about was my relationship with my mother, my boyfriend and school. Now, part of that is my fault too, because I didn't offer up anything either. And he told me, oh, you know, you're a well-rounded young lady, and you're doing well, and I don't need to see you anymore. You're going to be fine for the rest of your life. Like, you're good. And I walked out of the session going, but I'm not okay. Like, I have all these

thoughts and fleeting stuff and days where I don't want to get out of bed and I cry all the time but when I'm with my friends I put on a happy face like it was not healthy was not healthy how I lived and you know and everybody just kept oh Susan you're so strong you're so strong you're so strong I was a so strong. You're so strong. I was a mess. And even my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time, we've been together this long. He went through trauma from day one. You know, he may not have seen what I saw,

but he went through trauma too. So he was 20 at the time and he was trying to navigate. And he was the only one that kind of knew a little bit about what was going on with me and didn't know how to handle it either. We're in the same generation where there was no space for, you know, how are you feeling? You know, what's this anger? What does it mean? Get over it. You're going to be fine. That kind of thing. Yep. Put a happy face on, put some makeup on, do your hair look good and everything is great. I see that so much, you know, and it's like now we're all, you know, in our forties and fifties, like finally processing emotions for the first time. Right. Yeah. It definitely affected my relationship with my mother with my brother.

I kind of took on the second parent role immediately. It was a given. It was not, it was expected, put it that way. You know, there was some alcoholism. After before and after. He had had another loss prior to my dad that was pretty significant. I had a foster sister that was also murdered. Oh, my God. Two and a half years prior to my dad.

That's when the drinking started with her. You know, the behavior that comes with drinking was very abusive. You know, there's no way to say it nicely. I mean, it was it was emotional abuse, physical abuse. And when I lost my foster sister, like my dad was the go between, you know, he was the one that would go between us and arguments would start and you know, and she'd been that would go between us and arguments would start and, you know, and she'd been drinking and whatnot. But when my dad died, she turtled, like she went into herself. She lost her identity. I mean, I tell people like I lost my dad that night, I lost my mom that night. She lost her identity, just turtled and dove into the bottle. And she's well aware of it. Had that conversation recently.

Because I'm very raw and I'm very open about what was truly going on in that time. Because that was important. And it was a part of my trauma, not only losing my father, but also losing my mother in this way and not understanding alcoholism and not understanding the behaviors that happened with it. How did you understand that? I mean, I've done Al-Anon. I've been on that road before. Were you able to, you know, understand that? Did you come to a place where you can see it as the sickness that it is? Recently, literally recently. Yeah. And with my brother, you know, he was just small. So, like I said, I took on like a second parent. And when he started taking a turn as he got older, I think the difference was that I watched my mom drink and be abusive. And I watched my brother

as a teenager start getting into drug use and got into some pretty self-destructive behavior. He probably didn't get what he needed either then. And I honestly thought for years and years and years that their relationship was different than mine and hers. And it was not that at all. You know, my mom would always come to me and be like, you need to talk to your brother and you need to do this and you need. And I'm like, I talked to him and he doesn't listen. So I don't know what you want from me. And he's great now, like, you know, working through his trauma and he's had a lot. How did you end up in Colorado? So I just recently retired also from being a hairdresser for 31 years. Initially, I came here, I was headhunted in Southern California for a company to come and educate here in Colorado. And then my husband

was in construction at the time. So he came out here and brother in California? I did. They're here now. Yeah. Oh, that's good. My mom wanted to be near the grandchildren. But our relationship is definitely not healed over the years, unfortunately. And I think a lot of it has to do with my mindset being completely different. I mean, in the very beginning, of course, I was a victim, right? And I lived in victimhood. And as I got older, and I realized like, that's not the road I want to take, you know, and I've got to figure out how to come out of that and become the survivor. And I did it, you know, I did it, not knowing anything about PTSD, and all the different psychological things that it can morph into. Because, you know, again, my first therapist

was like, you're fine, you're well rounded. It wasn't until Columbine happened that I had a deep understanding of PTSD. I was totally triggered and I couldn't understand it because I'm like, I don't have any kids that go there. We're not even in that neighborhood. And so watching things on TV and having a visceral response to it and then just diving. I just went downhill. Suicidal ideation came back. The fogginess came back. And now I'm married with two children. And I didn't know what to do.

I would go to work at the salon every day and put a happy face on like nothing was bothering me. And then the minute I left the salon driving, my fleeting thoughts would start. Like maybe I just turn the wheel and crash into it. You know, I had plans and I didn't understand why. And it wasn't until my husband, I came home one day and he stopped me at the door and he said, you have two choices. You either go get yourself some help or I'm putting you in a hospital today. And he saved my life. Like he literally did multiple times through my life. But that time he did because I did go to the doctor. I did find a therapist who looked me in

the face and said, you have PTSD. And I was like, but I don't understand. I'm just a normal person. I'm not a police officer. I'm not EMT. I'm not, you know, anything like that. And she said, you absolutely have PTSD. And all the things that you have dealt with your whole life is normal. You mean I'm not crazy? You under, like I thought it was nuts. Like I thought it was crazy for so many years. And it kept me from enjoying a lot of things that I should have been able to enjoy. Yeah.

You know, it's the joy out of my life. So I had to figure out how to put the joy back in my life. And so, you know, that was a big turning point in my life. So I had to figure out how to put the joy back in my life. And so, you know, that was a big turning point in my healing. I was triggered by Columbine as well. When I was 17, I worked at Chuck E. Cheese here in Aurora and my friend Nathan killed several people. And one of them was my good friend, Sylvia, who I just got goosebumps all over and I'm like buzzing all over. Yeah. It takes a different kind of feel. And as I was watching

the teenagers lining up and moving out the doors, I kept thinking about how I felt at that time. And there was such a deep sadness, because I never got to grieve privately, most of the time, because there was always cameras in my face, at the funeral, you know, anytime I walked out the door, like, it's like being a celebrity without wanting to be a celebrity, right? And it's a different world. And I watched these kids go through the same thing. Their world just got ripped apart. And their innocence was taken from them. And they had cameras in their face, and reporters in their face asking them how they were feeling. Well, how do you think they're feeling? They're reeling. Like, give them a minute, right? Just give them a minute. I just watched everything and I thought, all I kept thinking is nobody's life is the same anymore.

This was not something to Columbine. It was what happened to Colorado. It was what happened to children seeing this, even watching it on the news. Like now all of a sudden the world doesn't feel safe anymore. It made it even more sad for me personally, because I knew what those kids were feeling. Yeah. So years later, I was asked to come speak at CU Boulder.

I had a hair client who was a journalism professor there, and I had never told her my story. And we were talking one time about the media and I said I have about 40 students in my class. Would you want to come speak to them? And I said, sure, absolutely. So I went and I spoke to them on October 30th that year in speaking to the students and letting them know what happened and kind of talking to them about the media and how absolutely hard it is when you are processing or trying to process things that are going on and they're in your face and the cameras and the flashes and the whatever. And it's almost being violated again, you know, because you're, you're dealing with something so personal, right? And they are outside world. And I spoke about Columbine, as an example, and four of the students in there graduated from Columbine. And it hit them on the face. They totally connected with what I was saying to them. And after the talk, I probably spoke for an hour.

And then I had a half an hour of questions. About two weeks later, I got a postcard, a thank you from all of them, which was lovely, you know, and one of them said, thank you for your talk, because it really made me realize that I need to change my major. I am not capable of compartmentalizing in that way to the point where I am in someone's face after a tragic event. And I was like, wow, now her parents probably want to kill me. But I was like, wow. Now her parents probably want to kill me. But I was like, wow. I mean, that was amazing that I was able to give them a glimpse of what it's like to be on the other side and be the subject. Right. So yeah, which is another reason why I wrote the book,

because I felt like through my experiences that people can connect with me in different ways. And maybe it can help them. It what's really interesting is through the years, I've realized that this was my purpose. And I tell people, some people can handle what I say and some people can't. But what I say is that my purpose was in my dad's death and things happen for you and not to you. Now, some people take that as, oh my gosh, how can she say that? Like bad things shouldn't happen like that and everything. Well, unfortunately, bad things are a part of life, right? And bad things happen to good people. And my understanding is that when we're given these things and we're able to move through them, our next step is to teach, is to help and guide and shepherd people through their own journeys. I feel like I give them some extra steps so that they don't have to go through all the things, right?

It's like I'm giving you kind of a cheat sheet of this is how I got through this. And it was easy. And I tell my kids this and I tell everyone else who has gone through any kind of trauma, that as human beings, we don't want to bulldoze through fear, and we don't want to go into pain, right? Our human condition is we're just going to stay over here in pleasure land, right? And we can ignore the pain and we'll just stay in pleasure. But what people need to understand is the only way that I've gotten onto the resiliency side is I did have to motor through all of the trauma, all of the hurt, all of the fear, all of the pain. And there is such a freedom in it. So I tell my kids, my own children who deal with their own stuff, like, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Bulldoze that sucker.

Like, here's fear. Bulldoze through it. Right. Yes. Is it going to suck? Is it going to be a not easy thing to do through therapy or modalities or I did EMDR, you know, all the things you choose what works for you and you just bulldoze through that fear. And yes, there might be repressive memories that come up. There might be whatever. But when you are able to move through it, the freedom on the other side from all that fear and pain is incredible. I have done the work in writing this book was super cathartic for me. However, I'm utilizing this book to help others in their journey somehow. That's beautiful. You know, and I too lost my dad and I've always said, and I, I knew that it sounded terrible saying it, but he gave me birth twice, once in my life and once in his death. Yep. You know, it's interesting that the indigenous people, when I was doing some

ancestry work, I found out that if there's trauma of any kind or injury, mental, physically, emotional, whatever, they deal with it within three days. They don't let it get past three days. It was a tradition and they would all come together as the community to support this person in what they needed. And it had to be done in three days. They knew that if you carried that around for your whole life, that, you know, you were going to end up 50 years later, whatever, dealing with that demon, monster, dragon, whatever people want to call it.

Yeah. And that's why I started to write the book at 50. Because, and my husband and I talk about it all the time. He said, you know, could you have written this book prior to 50? And I said, no, because my work wasn't done yet. I wasn't at a place in my healing where I could really make a difference yet. I needed to heal wholeheartedly in every aspect in order to move forward with this book.

So at 50 years old, and it's taken me four years, but at 50 years old, I said, I've got to get this sucker done. And I think it was my dad, like kicking me in the rear end. Like you got to do this. This, this is your purpose. You got to do this. And so that's when I sat down and I started writing I didn't know anything about writing a book nothing about writing a book and it has been journey in itself I mean because you're having to go back and replay everything I mean it's just a deeper healing and then that freedom at the end and now, you know, connecting with people. I'm sure, you know, there's grief is one thing that we have in common. You know, I get really angry when I hear people say things like, you know, oh, it's been such

and such a time. Get over it. You don't know what that person's journey is. You know, you don't know what's holding them back. And for you to put that on somebody or put that responsibility on somebody is not fair. Or the opposite, right? They got over it so fast. You don't know.

Everybody thought I got over it. And I didn't. You were well-rounded. You were fine. I was well-rounded. Yes. So for me, you know, writing this book is more of like my legacy is what happened to my dad. Right.

That's my legacy. But my legacy for my children is I want them to see the resiliency side. I want them to learn. I mean, my kids are all adult children now. They're adults. And they are all going through various things in their own life. And I'm just hoping that, you know, in reading my own book, that they will understand a little bit more about mom, for one, but also understand that there is a reason why when people go into victimhood, I just want to shake them. I just want to shake them and say, no, don't go there. Don't go down that road, you know, because you're more than that. You're more than your trauma. You've got so much potential in life. You're giving that thing power over you. I watched my mother go through it.

My brother go through it. And I started healing our relationship four years ago. When I started to write the book, we started having some in-depth conversations and it was very eye opening for me. So I really hope in so far from the people that have read it, they have been able to connect. A young lady read it the other day. It's my son's girlfriend, and she deals with a lot of things, and she said there was something that told her that she needed to stop giving her trauma the power. And for her, that piece was powerful. For that piece changed her mindset in that day.

She picked up my book and read it in two hours. She said it just like a light bulb came on in her head. And it means the world to me when she says that, because that's exactly why I wrote the book. Like it's that fear of going into the darkness. I mean, even writing the book, there were days that were dark because I had to be, if you're going to feel what I went through in my experience, I have to dive in order to do that. You know, there were times where I was like, how do I come out of this mindset? I need to get out of this. Right. And there were days where I was like, I'm going to give myself grace and I'm not going to work today. I worked on my book.

I'm not in a good place. I need to get myself in a good place. And so I gave myself grace and I meditated and I journaled and I did all the things. I need to get myself in a good place. And so I gave myself grace and I meditated and I journaled and I did all the things that I needed to do to get to the other side of it. But I spoke about it earlier. Most people do not want to run head first into that darkness. With all of the police brutality that we're seeing, You know, they want to reform police. You have people for police, against police. You know, there's this division. I have a brother-in-law and he's a police officer.

It scares me to death for him, for his family. And I'm always, you know, praying for him. There's a lot of good fucking police officers putting their lives on the line on a daily basis. And they're not all bad they're not and I have thoughts around that too I do get frustrated because I feel like a lot of it has to do with their training a lot right I will tell you so I had some deep feelings around that because after my dad was killed because it was a situation that had never happened before, they started utilizing what happened to my dad as a training tool for upcoming

police officers. Here's the negative part of that. The men that were involved in my dad's murder were men of color. They were black. And so even back then, the black and the white thing came into play. Whoa. Then Rodney King. Right. So all of those things came into play and they were utilizing what happened to train. So now you're putting out the mindset that black men killed my dad. So you're putting in fear into new trainees and you're talking about the fact that these black men took out a white cop while picking up his little son.

So I get the motivation behind it. They want police officers to understand that this can happen and they need to be proactive to protect themselves. However, you're also putting a very volatile situation into the heads of new cops. Wow. And it wasn't just LAPD. It was nationwide. Wow. So I don't particularly agree.

Susan. With that. I have had words about things that have happened where, you know, police officers, they have not de-escalated. They've escalated to tragic. Yeah, like Elijah here. Exactly. And then on top of that, you know, then you have the situations where it's the ones that are good, the ones that follow the law, the ones that don't disrespect people, right? Those are the ones that we're losing. It saddens me. It does. But I understand too,

that we need to get to a place of mutual respect for one another. And I don't know if that's ever going to happen. We should only look at someone's character, not their skin tone. Right. However, this has been an on playing ongoing thing for so many years and the training around needs to change. Do you think that had the two people been Caucasian who had killed your dad and this was the training that the majority got, it might have maybe been received? I mean, you got the visual, you have the fear, and then you show like all the cops that created a bias. But it's a bias. Yes, it is. Absolutely. You know, I know that that wasn't their intent. However, that is the consequence.

Yeah. It's a consequence to that. You know what that impacts. That's so crazy. Yeah, it is truly sad. You know, unfortunately, I mean, I feel like lately, we live in the divided states of America. We do. We absolutely do. I agree. I think that's part of it. But you know, honestly, to get like, really deep is I feel like there's so many people walking

around with trauma, hurt, and pain that they're not dealing with. And that is causing their behaviors, their belief system, their everything. And I feel like people like myself have a responsibility in a way to say, look, you are not your pain, right? You can move out of this. You can have a better life. You can treat people equally. You can be a good person and feel love for everyone. I can tell you from experience, and this story is in my book but I worked what during the trial there were two trials because there were so many defendant during the trial it was on the news every night every night every night every night and I had just had it right my mom was going to court. Then she called me and she tell me everything. And she didn't really understand or know that she was just blurting out stuff and there was no filter.

So I went to work one day and I was working for a tile company as a secretary. And I was friends with the guys in the warehouse and everything. And when I got there that day, I had flipped on my radio and I was like, Oh, music, I just want to listen to music. And the news popped out. And it talked about the trial. I was mad. I was like, God, I can't get away from it. This is a nightmare. And I went to work and I was in a bad mood. And I started walking through the warehouse. And one of my friends who works in there, who happens to be black, tossed a box at me because he saw that I had like a scowl on my face. So he wanted to funny ha ha.

Right. And instead, I snapped at him, probably called him a name. And I went to my office. Within five minutes of being at my desk, my boss walked up to me and said, Come with me. And I had no idea what was happening. I felt like I was going to the principal's office. And he took me to this office and my coworker that I had snapped at was standing there. And he said, you guys are going to go into this office and you're going to hash out whatever it is that you're dealing with. And you're not leaving that office until you get it done. And I was totally confused.

I was like, I don't know what's happening here. He was forcing you to process your emotions yeah yeah and I was only like 19 at the time so I go in there and I'm like I don't know what this is about and he said Susan I just want you to know that I'm following your dad's trial. And I know that the reason that you flipped out on me today is because I'm a black man. You know, I don't blame you at all. And I, I was like, what? What? And he's like, Yeah, well, you know, I would feel the same way. I mean, I wouldn't like black men. And I was like, wait a minute. And I just told him, I said, did you pull the trigger?

He said, no. Did you plan it? No. Then why would I have a problem with you? Just because the color of your skin does not matter. You had nothing to do with this. And he looked at me like I was green with pink polka dots, literally. And it was a big lesson for me about perception and how people perceived that I should feel, which is another reason why I wrote the book, because I needed people to see who I really am and hear from my own mouth.

I just told him, no, I have no problem with you being a black man. And I am so sorry that I took my frustration out on you. It had nothing to do with it. I said, you need to understand that this trial is on the news constantly. And I got in my car today and I flipped on the radio and it came on and it frustrated me and it made me angry. And he was like, oh, okay. Just think about had you not had this conversation, he would have really thought that. And how many people has he thought that and carried that all that time? It just shows you the importance of actually allowing people to process and communicate.

You know, Mandy used to always say, assuming is an asset of you and me. Yep. Because, you know, we never know what's going on with people. And us don't know what they're carrying. And I think that's a general thing to just today, too. It's like I tell people all the time, be kind. You don't know what that other person is going through. You have no idea what their frustration is or why they're angry that day or whatever the case is or what

they're hearing from 30 40 years ago right exactly and that's the problem is that there's such a disconnect in that you know we're in a me me me environment we're in a what's what's in it for me what are you going to do to me what are are you bringing to the table? Right. I feel like as more people such as myself who have gone through some pretty tough things in our lives, if we step out and step into a role of educating people, then I always say, you know, you can change the world one person at a time. My biggest goal in life is to talk to 10,000 people. Well, you are. You're definitely talking to 10,000 people. I'm talking to 10,000 people. Yeah, at least.

Just this week. No, but really, it starts with you, though. If you really, truly want to see different in the world, you heal yourself. And that is how we get out of this. You're healing yourself. But guess who else you're healing? Because our children see how we deal with things, how we move through things, how we whatever. And that's why I talk about the legacy in my book is being able to tell my adult boys, like,

look, mom went through all of this stuff and you're going to go through stuff, right? How do you want to handle it? Are you going to bulldoze through the fear and get to the other side of it? Or are you going to let it envelop you and just make that part of who you are. Not only are you healing yourself presently, but you also are healing your ancestors, your mother, her mother. You broke free from the, I'm fine. You broke free from, you know,

turning to a bottle or not letting go you literally have healed the past present and future and whether or not you see this in your mother I guarantee that you know because when you change everybody around you changes too oh yeah I, my mom picked up my book last week and I didn't know how she felt about it. I had talked to her and I had told her some of the things that were in the book, stayed very neutral, did not allow myself to engage in anything that became emotional and unhealthy, but she picked up the book and she read my first two chapters. And she said that she felt like it was written very well, which that made me feel very good. But she was very proud of me. And that like that was huge.

And part of the reason of writing the book, even though there were things in there that she's not going to like, because she is her own person and I am my own person. So you can't attach yourself to the outcome. You have to be brave and put it out there and whatever happens, happen. And so for her to acknowledge it, to say that it was written well, and it even sparked some memory for her was important for me. This healing journey does not just end. I don't just write a book and I'm like, I'm all better now. Right. It's ever evolving, ever changing, you know, and I'm still learning from certain things and being more aware of stuff and relationships and behaviors and everything. And again, it makes me feel better because I don't feel like I'm looking at things with rose colored glasses all the time. I see clearly I've got the glasses to prove it. But yeah, I mean, I think that that was a very powerful connection that we were able to make.

Now, I haven't heard from her since, so I don't know if she picked it back up again or anything. I'm giving it some time. I just think it's so beautiful. I really appreciate you coming on. I think your story is very powerful and strong. I think you are powerful and strong. And I know your dad's so proud of you. Thank you.

I appreciate that. Can you tell everybody where they can get your book? So the book is called The Other Side of the Gun, My Journey from Trauma to Resiliency. It is available on amazon right now it is a paperback book or you can order it as an ebook for kindle what is your website also because you have a great website as well yes my website is www.susansnowspeaks.com and now it's time to break that shit down. So what I'm going to say is that one, grief is a journey and it doesn't matter if it takes you

two weeks, three weeks, four years, 40 years. You need to allow yourself to have that journey and don't listen to anyone else who is putting a timetable on it. Two, being vulnerable and brave is the first step. So owning your story, even telling your story and understanding that, you know, the work that it takes to get through it and break through your pain, it's not easy. It just isn't. And I can tell you from experience that if you're willing to do that for yourself, it is the best gift that you can ever give yourself. And the freedom from the pain and the trauma is immeasurable. It's priceless in just being brave enough and just bulldozing through that fear and understand you're not alone either. Don't push away the people. This is a big lesson I had to learn later.

Don't push people away who come to you and offer help. I did it all the time. It's not your burden. It's not your deal. I can handle this on my own. We all need it. So if someone cuts to you and you're in a bad way, allow them to support you in the way that you need to be supported. Amen, sister. Good for you. Well, you are such a beautiful person. I feel so blessed that you spent this hour with me and appreciate what you've done for the world. You putting out your light into the world through pain. So I love it. That's what I want to do. You know, that's why I want to speak. It's bigger than me. And it's a message that I am just a vehicle. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. And Dan, Dan, he recommended I get a hold of you because you had an amazing story, which you do.

So thanks so much, Dan. Thank you. I would like to thank you and our special guests for being with me today. If you like what you hear, don't forget to rate, like, and subscribe and visit my website at www.mysenseofsoul.com. That's mysenseofsoul.com. I hope that you will join me next time. Thanks for listening.