Senses Working Overtime with David Cross - Jon Lovett

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

Jon Lovett (Pod Save America) joins David to discuss Trump, back tattoos, and more. Please note that this episode was recorded on 6/26, before the first presidential debate. Catch all new episodes every Thursday. Watch video episodes here.Guest: Jon LovettSubscribe and Rate Senses Working Overtime on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and leave us a review to read on a future episode!Follow David on Instagram and Twitter.Follow the show:Instagram: @sensesworkingovertimepodTikTok: @swopodEditor: Kati SkeltonEngineer: Nicole LyonsExecutive Producer: Emma FoleyAdvertise on Senses Working Overtime via Gumball.fm.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a HeadGum Podcast. I'm gonna go count. I'm gonna go couch. I'm gonna go chair. I'm gonna go chair. Alright. Um... I didn't realize that affected your position. Well, I can sit on top of you or underneath you. Right. Well, I thought you were sitting there and it was where I was going. No, no, no.

No, no. I see. That's fair. Um... Alright, how are you? Oh, Jesus. Ow. You alright? Yeah. Right here. Right there. All right, how are you? Oh, Jesus. Ow. You all right? Yeah.

Right here. Right there. It's a tough corner. I think those should be set down. Yeah. We should child proof it. Here. Is this okay?

Yeah, totally okay. Nice shoes. Thanks. Do you want to use these? Are we using these? Not using these? No, no hands. I mean, you can if you want.

We can if you want. I don't need them. Yeah, I don't understand. We don't have anything playing. Thanks. Do you want to use these? Are we using these? Not using these? No, no can. I mean you can if you want. What do you mean if you want? I don't even... Yeah, I don't understand. We don't have anything plain or anything like that. So John, love it.

You are only the second guest ever that I don't know, I don't have a personal relationship with okay never met all right so that's that it's not a I'm not asking you to expand on that just know that who's the other Robbie Hoffman a couple days ago like I'm out on do you know Robbie Hoffman yeah Yeah, yeah. Stand-up, yeah, very funny. Bit chewy, but. Yeah, no, I know, it's very Kasha. It's a lot of Kasha. It comes out.

From Kasha comes out. The Kasha jumped out, as the kids say. But she was great, you know. And I knew of her stand-up. I had seen the, whatever the thing is on Netflix where they have all the up-and-comers or whatever they call it. Yeah, whatever that Stand-ups to watch stand-ups to watch were you ever stand-up to watch?

Um, I was where you stand up people keep we're keeping an eye on this guy I was a guy to watch I kind of before they had that thing. There was the first time I did the Just for laughs festival in Montreal. Are you familiar with it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's huge, right? And apparently is going to be no more. Perhaps. That's it. Yeah. After four years. I don't know. I didn't know that. But yeah, I did a, you know, one of those, Yeah, I did a, you know, one of those, you know, danger zone, late night, you know, but, you know, saucy, the saucy hour or whatever the fuck it was. But and I got really it for whatever reason, everything clicked and I made kind of a name for myself there and I became a comic and then I got a HBO half hour and

and then when did the show happen mr. show or what show yeah mr. show that was 90 oh that was right around the same time that was like I think it was it was either 90 I think was 95 to 98 is when we did that or 94 to 97 I think it was, it was either 90, I think it was 95 to 98 is when we did that or 94 to 97. I think it was 95, 98. I probably did just for laughs in like 90, the year before or the year we were starting to do it. Um, that was fun.

It was, uh, I, oh, you know what? It was before Mr. Show because Bob came up with me because I was Well, this is wow, I forgot all about this I was I got a job to write for Brett Butler, do you remember her? Oh my yes Brett Butler and she had a She had a sitcom grace under fire grace under fire exactly. I watched I think I watched every episode of great at Under Fire. I think I watched every episode of Grace Under Fire. I think I watched nearly none of them. But I knew her as a standup, and I think she did a bunch of time in Atlanta too,

where I started. And I got a job to write for her. She was hosting the gala, and I got a job. And I had no money and I was like, yeah, sure. And then Bob came up with me and that's where we came up with a bunch of stuff that eventually was on Mr. Show or we did in other places.

We did the farting Gary was because there was the big, huge act that year was a guy named Lepidomaine who was a French fart, he called himself a fartist and he would, he farted and he blew like he, you know, like he'd get a birthday cake with candles on it and then he'd fart him out and people fucking loved it and it was really depressing, it was really like this internationally known, the biggest comedy festival in the world. And the star of the whole month long festival

was a guy who farted things, he farted on things. And he farted out a tune, you know? He'd do the French national anthem. And it was like, it was really depressing and so Bob and I came up with a couple things and then we did naked phrase guess There we came up with that bit there, but I was hired to write for Brett Butler, but then I don't know exactly how it all went down, but she kind of went a little nuts.

And I think that was the start of it or the apex, the or nadir, if you will. But it was pretty bad. And then I still got paid, but I didn't really have a purpose to be there as it were. That's a great gig. That's a it were. That's a great gig. That's a great gig. That's a great gig.

No, I couldn't speak for a second. Are we in? Is this happening? Are we in the pod? Yep. Great, great. I love that for us. Yep.

Are you happy? I feel great. Okay, good. All right, we're officially going. Okay. Okay. Let's get this out of the way. Do you have anything to plug?

I do have something to plug. All right, do it. I am here to talk about Democracy or Else, a book that's on your shelf right there. Okay. I wrote it with John Favreau and Tommy Vitor, 10 Steps to Save America. It is a, I think that there's a lot of,

one of the reasons I'm proudest of the book is I think there's a lot of... One of the reasons I'm proudest of the book is I think there's a lot of incredibly funny, very cynical people talking about politics. And then there's a lot of very serious, very smart, very earnest people who think they need to talk about politics like they're crossing the Delaware, like they're writing the Federalist Papers.

And I think it's hard to figure out a way to be genuinely funny while also being kind of earnest and optimistic. And that's what we tried to do with the book because we feel like there's a lot of people out there that are about to watch a debate with Donald Trump and Joe Biden. And it's this complicated feeling

of part of you wanting to roll your eyes, but part of you knowing how unbelievably fucking serious it is. And this like conflict between feeling like you want to do the responsible, practical thing, but also you can't believe this is the world we live in. And I think this is a book for people that feel that way. All right, cool. So what's step number seven? I'd have to, I'd have to look, I'd have to go through.

Let's look at step number seven. Let me get it. You get it. You get it. You want to, you can look. I'd have to go through. Let's look at step number seven. Let me get it. You get it, you get it. You can look through. You can, it's not that long. And who's Josh Holloway? Josh Holloway. Well, why does he get a tiny little print?

Well, it's with him. Yeah. He's with us. Why, how much, Josh? He did a lot. Josh did a lot. Okay, that's what I was about to ask. He did a lot. He did a lot. So why is his name tinier and underneath everybody?

Well, because it's with him. Well, why don't you just get rid of the word with? Well, that's a contractual thing, I think. Well, why didn't you have it part of the contract? Why didn't you be democratic, as it were, equitable, fair, just, and give the guy credit where credit's due. Well, we didn't want to,

because we wanted to be more about me, John, and Tommy, and less about Josh. Well, I appreciate your honesty. Why didn't you just say that in the beginning instead of dancing around it? Well, because I didn't know what kind of fucking hardball Jake Tapper shit I was gonna get from you. That's hardball?

Is that hardball? No, no. With Chris Matthews? No. Do you miss him? I do a little bit. I do. Do you miss him? So, let me see. Step... Oh, here we go. Wait.

Step four. There's step four. So let me find step... Oh, this does look fun. Okay. Step fun. OK. Mm hmm. Step nine. All right. So step seven, give yourself a break.

Oh, that's nice. That's a nice one. Squat for a beat, kids. Elder millennials are speaking. Let me redo that. Pop a squat for a beat, kids. Elder millennials are speaking. You've made it this far, which means you've done a lot,

but it doesn't feel like enough. And you're wondering if it ever will and that means it's time ellipsis to do nothing look politics Politics is a slog Okay, let's talk about All right work on a campaign, okay that makes sense Oh, I know Ben Wickler. Okay, that makes sense.

Oh, I know Ben Wickler. Yeah. I did some work for him. Good guy. Yeah, he's in Wisconsin. We'd be in better shape if all state party chairs were like Ben Wickler. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he single-handedly lost the Clinton presidency. Yeah, I'm willing to go there.

I don't think that that's true. I don't think you can put it. I don't want anybody to mistake me. I don't think you can put it. You're very dry. I don't think, you know what I'm saying? You're very dry. You're absolutely right.

Look, there are 10 steps. They start from as simple as just getting informed. They take you all the way through being a disgraced one-term president. And along the way, there's sort of helpful ways in which I think sometimes in the noise and chaos of paying attention to politics right now, you feel cynical and hopeless because so much feels out of your control. And you can answer that by kind of turning away and not paying attention,

which is a completely reasonable reaction. But what we're trying to tell people is the way to feel better about participating right now is being smart about the places where you have agency and to remember that even when politics itself feels like a morass, whether it's at the local level or the state level or in your own community or a school board, being involved is a virtuous circle

because obviously it's good for the world. Like you're a righteous and moral person if you participate in democracy, but it also is good for you. Like you feel good. Well, well. Well, you know, and you're gonna be out first ever. But also this, we don't live in a true democracy. You're not even close really.

Right. That's the other thing to, I mean, it's a nice idea. It's a, but I mean, an antiquated notion. I don't think we've ever really lived in a true democracy. No. notion. I don't think we've ever really lived in a true democracy. I do truly believe it's over for a couple generations if Trump gets reelected, I believe that. Over as we knew it, I should say. over as we know it, as we knew it, I should say. And...

Because also, Trump's not going anywhere. If he wins, he's not getting out of there after this term. So I don't think the word... I think doom exists on a spectrum, on a continuum. The doom spectrum. The doom spectrum, if you will. It's part of the Marvel universe. Yeah, exactly. Right. You know, and there's just sort of a...

There's a hot guy on one end and a monster on the other. But they're not two separate things. They can both be the same thing. You can have a hot monster. That's true. You know? And I'm not kink shaming whatever you're into.

I don't care. No. And how hot can be whatever you define it? Yeah, exactly. You know? Yeah. And that's important. Emma, Google hot monster images.

Okay, go ahead. So, but like if Trump wins, and it is very possible as we're recording this, Trump can win, right? He's leading every poll. He's won already, yeah. Yeah, he's won once, he can win again. Well, I'm sorry to interrupt,

but to go back to your point about the debate and specifically this debate that's coming up for us tomorrow, there is unlike any debate except for maybe the last round, everybody's on Tinder hooks because of the car crash quality, the car crash-ness of what could happen

for either person. And unlike in any other debate in my memory, that there's a lot of the watching is going to be, for some people it's gonna be, you know, ah, boy, I can't wait to see him fuck up. You know, I can't wait to see what crazy shit happens. And for other people, it's holding their breath going, please don't say anything crazy, for both sides.

Yeah, sure. I think like just cutting through it, everybody's worried because Joe Biden's so old and everybody feels worried that the country is gonna see that and if he has a great night, we'll be okay and if he doesn't, everyone will have their bias or expectation confirmed and there are millions and millions of people out there

who the die is cast on Donald Trump. They know who Donald Trump is, they can't fucking stand him confirmed and there are millions and millions of people out there who, the die is cast on Donald Trump. They know who Donald Trump is. They can't fucking stand him, but they have concerns about the state of the economy, about inflation. They connect those to Joe Biden's age and energy. And they worry that because Joe Biden is old, he can't solve these problems. And he can't solve these problems because he's old. And well he has, I mean, in a sense of, I mean, no problem's ever gonna be solved forever

and there will always be new problems, but he has done a pretty effective job with some of those things, it's just the messaging is not there. It's not, yes. So here, that's important to say. It's totally, like Joe Biden, certainly on domestic policy, I think you can go further than that.

I think you can say he has been an extraordinary president. I think you can look back on the last four years and say, did he get everything done? He wanted to get done? Of course not. There were obstacles in the Senate. There were obstacles with the Supreme Court. But as far as somebody who played the hand

that they were dealt as well as possible, no one could have done it better. And so- Well, I'm not sure about that. I do believe that actually. I do believe that because I do think one of the advantages Joe Biden has is that his persona as an old moderate

gave him permission to push further on some progressive policies. And by dint of them coming from him, made them look more moderate and palatable. It gave him an ability to pass things through the Senate, to get Joe Manchin on board for certain things. Like that was a power that I don't know that anybody else possessed.

And whether it's on executive actions or the infrastructure bill or the climate bill like I look sure there's some you can imagine someone performing better but all else being equal I think he did an extraordinary job the problem is he seems too fucking old and a lot of people have not felt the benefits of what he was able to get done and don't know where to properly place the blame for what he couldn't get done. I disagree.

I think they've felt the benefits, but they can't attribute them to him because there's two, there's just the message, the shit that they hear constantly doesn't apply and hasn't stuck, hasn't been applicable. But to say that most people aren't better off than they were four years ago is I think most people would disagree. That's why I'd never understood the... It's mostly on the right, sometimes on the left. But the thing about, you know, and this goes back to

when I was a started becoming aware of politics when I was, you know, 10, 11, 12, whatever. But the idea that Jimmy Carter's in office, everything sucks. Reagan's in office, everything is great for eight years. And then Clinton's in office, everything sucks. Reagan's in office, everything is great for eight years. And then Clinton's in office, everything sucks for eight years. And then George Bush is in office, everything's great for, you know, whatever. It's the idea that people are like, you know,

Joe Biden is a treasonous fascist authoritarian. Like, what are you talking about? Like on a Wednesday, the country's never been worse, but by Monday, the country's never been better. So there's always been, in economic polls, there's always been a partisan bias. When a Democrat is president, Democrats want to say things are going better.

When a Republican is president, Republicans want to say things are going better, but that bias is just bigger for Republicans. Republicans are better team players, that's the first thing. The second piece of this is. for Republicans, Republicans are better team players. That's the first thing. The second piece of this is.

Well, you have to be so, the disconnect to COVID and the two years, you know, pre, during and post COVID to say that somehow we were better off then than we are now is insane. Yes, look, I agree with you. People are complicated. They view COVID. Oh, people aren't complicated.

They're just dumb. They're, no, sorry. Sorry. People- What's the complication? People do not attribute, people do not attribute the harms of the pandemic to Donald Trump.

Right, that's not- Because it happened to the whole world, and so they don't attribute the consequences for the pandemic to Donald Trump. Because it happened to the whole world. And so they don't attribute the consequences for the economy to Donald Trump. But Joe Biden promised to get us out of, look, I'm not, I'm just, this is just the world. I'm just saying it's not complicated and those people are not complicated.

It's simple, they're not, these are facts. And I know there's a lot of fuck your facts and fuck your feelings. This is not a fuck your facts, look. No, I- People attribute your facts. Look, people attribute, I'm just, people attribute the harms of the pandemic and the pandemic economy, not to Trump, but to the pandemic.

Joe Biden said, I will get us out of the pandemic and I will restore the economy. As the pandemic is ending and inflation is ramping up, people do not give Joe Biden the same break on the consequences for the economy that happened after the pandemic that they gave to Trump during the pandemic. Now you can call that dumb, that's just the reality.

I think it's a little bit complicated, right? It is a little bit complicated. I mean, I understand the- It's not Joe Biden's economic policies that's causing this inflation. I understand the factors that are involved and those factors are, you could make a case that they're complicated,

but it's not that complicated. Okay. Look, I just- I win. You won, great. But the point though is, okay, I wish we lived in a world where everybody understood that. We don't.

And Joe Biden's argument, right, that inflation was worse elsewhere, economies were worse elsewhere, our policies had a better effect on the domestic economy than other policies did around the world. And by the way, we were able to get inflation down when a lot of people said we would cause a recession by trying to pump money into the economy.

It actually did the opposite. It helped us stay out of one. That is all well and good, but what people feel and what they tell pollsters, I'm just making this up, what they tell pollsters, and I'm just making this up, what they tell pollsters is, yes, prices may not be continuing to rise, but they stayed high. And people remember that things were cheaper before the pandemic, and they laid that at the feet

of Joe Biden. Also housing is a big part of this. And so those are huge issues for people, and they don't feel like Joe Biden is solving them. Now, yes, we, as people who pay very close attention to the news, understand that first of all, there's a generational mistake in failing to build housing, right? That the whole world dealt with inflation after the pandemic. These are important points we can make to people, but if you're going to, we can't spend the next

four months trying to convince people that their feelings about the state of the world are wrong. We have to accept or maybe try to nudge those feelings while knowing where they're at and helping people understand the choice. I wish we could help everyone understand why Joe Biden deserves a second term based on his policy. That's just not the world. Yeah, I mean, it's difficult when you are battling

against four plus years of, you know, the main source of information and emotions for these folks is, oh, he's a fuck up, he's a socialist, you know, Nazi, Democrat, Satan worshiping, whatever the thing is that they paint Biden. And now it's incompetent and old and, you know, whatever nickname people come up with. You know, what is it?

What's Trump's nickname for him? Sleepy Joe at times. Sleepy Joe, yeah. And, you know, that's what you're battling. So when he does say these things, it just falls on deaf ears and they don't believe him. Well, I mean, I actually think it's even worse than that, which is that kind of news and

whatever politics like it, that's a kind of, I don't know, vaccine against thought and against reflection and against thinking about a different kind of politics, fine, those people are not gettable. I think the bigger problem is there's, so if you look at polls right now, the more engaged with politics and the news you are, the bigger the margin Joe Biden has. So people that are reading the news, watching the news, consuming the news you are, the bigger the margin Joe Biden has. So people that are reading the news,

watching the news, consuming the news on their phones, they are, Biden is ahead. Those are people also that are more likely to vote. But as you go down the engagement ladder, you find more and more people that are undecided or willing to vote for Trump. And the big chunk of people we have to get, yeah, sure, they're seeing on TikTok videos,

doctored or not, of Joe Biden looking very old and of people saying misleading things, but mostly they're not getting any news at all, none. Just zero news content. They're not paying attention to it. They don't care about it. I'm gonna take my shoes off. I hope that's okay.

Yeah, it's your studio. Well, I mean, I- It's okay. Temporary, thank you. I'm gonna put my feet up here, too. I like that there I This foot has a couple broken bones so that's longer this foot is now It's a little misshapen because they fuse I didn't do anything I mean, what are you gonna do about broken foot bones? So now your foot's a little bigger. It's a little bigger and

You're successful that I can't just get two pairs of shoes and get one bigger shoe you know what that I can't just get two pairs of shoes and get one bigger shoe um you know what that is a that's an interesting idea like if one of your feet is always hurting because one of your shoes is too small well these are also fairly new and um but your other foot doesn't hurt no it doesn't and you think that's because it's not broken or you think it's because your shoe is too small on your right foot uh have you thought about buying two pairs of shoes no no right foot. Have you thought about buying two pairs of shoes? No, no. I'm not that kind of guy.

Is that because you're afraid to admit you've been successful? No. Because it's strange to go into a store and say I need to buy two pairs of shoes for my feet. Are you embarrassed? No, it's just wasteful. I don't, I'm not.

It's wasteful. I don't. Right, because what are you supposed to do with those other two shoes? Yeah, give them to me. Find another guy. Maybe there's somebody out there. There's somebody out there. Yeah, who has a similar thing,

but on the left side, on the left foot. And- You can make a deal with yourself to buy shoes half as often. And then you can just be comfortable all the time. Oh, what if I buy them half off? Right. Well, that just saves you money,

but it doesn't stop the waste problem. Oh. I just think you want to be comfortable. I know what I can do. What can you do? I know what I can do. I can ask to try on a couple pairs of shoes, right? Same, they look the same, one slightly, you know,

this one's 11, this one's 11 and a half. Let me try these two. And then when the guy's not looking, switch them up, put them in the box, go, I'll take these. So that's, I thought you were talking about being wasteful about the supplies, but you're just talking about being wasteful about money. Cause you're- No, both, both.

Right, but in that case, yes, you've saved money by stealing from a store, but they're gonna have a pair of shoes- I didn't steal, I'm paying for the shoes. I didn't steal. Okay, you're right. You've committed a kind of fraud. Well, somebody will get the shoes,

and then they'll go, oh, these are too small. This one's too small. This one feels a little small. They'll measure it and they'll go, oh, this should be in this box, and this should be, then they'll find they have one extra shoe, right? They have two extra shoes. go, oh, this should be in this box. And this should be then they'll have find they have one extra shoe. Right. We'll have two extra shoes.

Two extra shoes. Yes. And then they'll donate those shoes because it's a big, massive corporation. They'll get it right off. They donate stuff anyway. And now somebody who the shoeless don't. So you're saying that. It's OK, because at some point down the line, somebody who who would either go without shoes at all just has two different size shoes

and that they'll deal with the problem. No, they get an extra shoe. There's no extra shoe, there's two shoes. There's one that's smaller and one that's bigger. They will get, so they're not gonna give the pair of shoes that's one's 11, one's an 11 and a half. They're gonna take the 11 and a half, go, I got nowhere to put this.

At some point. And then they were gonna take the 11, they go, I got nowhere to put this. At some point. And then they were going to take the 11, I got nowhere to put this one. They'll give those shoes to a either a Goodwill or a church or somebody. And they'll say, who needs a shoe size 11 and a half, right foot. And then somebody will hobble in there, right? Because he's got an old peg leg, right? Doesn't have the money for prosthetics, right? Doesn't need the other shoe because it's, it's wood an old peg leg, right? Doesn't have the money for prosthetics, right? Doesn't need the other shoe because it's wood,

his peg leg, you know, he's a, he's a, he's a renfair pirate, right? And then he goes, I do, I, and he's at the back of the room and he stands up because they're about to sacrifice. It's an option. No, they're about to sacrifice the shoe and burn it, you know, to their God. And he's like, I'll take the shoe. And then burn it, you know, to their god. Oh, I see.

And he's like, I'll take the shoe! And then he hobbles up, it's very dramatic. Everybody hushes, and then he... No, it's... Then he gets the shoe. Then he gets the shoe. Right. And then when he walks back, it's...

And then they just hope it happens twice. Right. Yeah. Well, right, the second time there wouldn't be the click Right. No, the click is the peg like oh, I see you're right. I'm being stupid. Yeah No, I get it so it's cool. I've said I was being stupid. I'm sorry. All right. Well, we're not stupid Just I'm painting a picture and you're not you're looking at it through rose colored glasses, right? You're right. You're right

And they're affecting your be your vision of the color field. Yeah, I was I was hearing you but I wasn't listening Well right on man. I'm sorry. That's okay expect I accept your apology What if in 2024 you got a little bit better every day? When you're learning a new language with Babbel, that's exactly what you're doing. And if Babbel can help you start speaking a new language in just three weeks, imagine what you can do in a full year. Be a better you in 2024 with Babbel, the science-backed language learning app that actually works. Don't pay hundreds of dollars for private tutors or waste hours on apps that don't

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Get up to 60% off at Babbel.com slash senses, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash census. Rules and restrictions may apply. This is probably a good time to plug. John, are you coming to see my show at Central Park? Yeah, sure I am. Of course I am. Okay, on August 8th? Yeah, I'll be there.

At the summer stage? At the summer stage? I love the summer stage. Is it the summer stage year round? Or is it only the summer stage in August? That's a great question. They legally, it's summer stage just during summer, but there is a

Group of folks who are trying to the same people who got the highline together to to make it Summer stage all year round. That's that's cool. So it'll be like so maybe domed or something. Do you call it autumn or fall? If I'm in the UK, I'll call it autumn and if I'm here in the United States of America I'll call it fall. Wow, so it's like code switching. But I won't say, I'll say autumnal and not fall-nal. Right, right. That's just where I thought about it. Do you say autumnal a lot?

Do you find yourself? I do, yeah. Like in color palettes and design aesthetics and so forth? I do, I say autumnal quite a bit. I come up with paint names for a living. That's a side gig I have. I say autumnal quite a bit. You know, I come up with paint names for a living. That's a side gig I have. And so autumnal plays in quite a bit. Mousy, Field Mouse Brown.

Right. And an autumnal ochre. An autumnal ochre is exactly what you're talking about. It's like a piece of driftwood that was initially It's sandalwood and then it became driftwood and it was part of it was sitting next to a bonfire didn't quite make it in there Yeah, that's it. Yep. I know I'm telling you job. I'm telling guys I'm not guessing I feel like I feel like an asshole again because I'm explaining I feel like an asshole again, because I'm explaining paint to the fucking guy. His fucking job is, this guy names the paints.

I'm saying great name, of course he knows. That's what I do. He does it for a living. That's what I do. He does it for a, that's how he makes his money. That's how he buys all the shoes. Yeah, so August 8th, Central Park, Summer Stage, David Cross and SuperPals got some special guests

coming down. And yeah, you can go to officialdavidcross.com. But you know. I already did. You did? I already have the tickets. You got them. From officialdavidcross.com.

Sweet. I actually, I tried, I almost got scammed. What? Because I went to unofficialdavidcross.com. Uh-oh. And it was just cocks and balls over there. Yeah. And I loved that.

I stayed there for a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For a couple of months. And I clicked over to what I remembered I was trying to do. What do you like better, cocks or balls? For me, it's sort of like- Or is it a depending on? No, it's not even a depending on,

it's actually the same every time, which is you have to have the cock. Right. You know, you have to have it. I guess just the balls would be. Well, what are we doing here? What are we doing here? Unless we're painting.

Have you ever said that? Have you ever said that? Yeah, what are we doing here? To do a partner. A A few times more than once. More than once, I have to tell you, it comes up surprisingly often. What are we doing here? What?

So here's the thing that's interesting. And I'm really glad you brought this up because this is why I was here. I love picturing it. No. Hey, you look. Oh, wait, I'm sorry. Wait, what? Exactly. I'm sorry.

What are we doing here? I'm Enflegrante Delicto and you're picturing it. Right now, are you picturing me having sex right now? No, because you would have to stop by going, what are we doing? Maybe how you do it. But see, there's two ways you can say,

what are we doing here, right? And one is- One is with a mouth full of cock and the other- So there's four ways. But it's- There's more than- It's four ways. But it's more than. It's four ways of saying it, but I'm saying it's. Seven if you're playing your cards right.

Remember how to do, look at my Pascal's Triangle to figure out how many combinations. But what are we doing here? Yeah. What are we doing here? Yeah. What are we doing here? That's so many different ways you can wonder. Yeah, sure. What are we doing here?

What are we doing here? Yeah, yeah, sure. It's interesting about language. Yeah, that was, what was that? That was in a, there was a scene in a movie where somebody is, he He's what is it? It's where they're where they're playing. They've learned about inflection.

Is this ringing a bell? I wish it were and then they keep repeating it. No, I I'm I'm sure I don't know. I think it's not nothing's going off for me. Emma would know, you know, if you were here. What? No, I said if only she were here, I don't know. You know what? If only she were here. What? No, I said if only she were here. I don't know.

What happened? Just the way that you said it. I'm pondering, if only Emma was here, she would know, is what it sounded like. Yeah, it sounded like she was. Oh, I see. It sounds like you were saying she's not here. Yeah, you can't tell at home,

but I looked at Emma when I said that. Right, so it sounded like she wasn't here, but what people didn't realize is that was a kind of passive aggressive way of asking her to chime in. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I think aggressive is a bit strong of a, I don't think it was aggressive.

No, passive aggressive. That's what mediates the aggressiveness. Not really, not, I don't think so. I don't think that's how people take it when, it's still a derogatory kind of. No, it's a hundred percent derogatory. So I'm not saying it's enough. So it doesn't mitigate aggressive.

Well, something can be derogatory and not as derogatory. Sure, yeah, by degrees. Yeah, it's not as derogatory. That's the point I was making. Okay, so then we have to qualify the mitigation of how effective was the mitigation. Well, that's a different point. Not effective at all.

Well, I think it would, no, no, not as effective as you wanted it to be. Oh, true, yeah, I can't say it all. But if I had said like, you're being aggressive, that's I think a bit worse than saying, you're being passive aggressive. I disagree. Okay, you think passive?

Because then I can completely refute it going, what are you talking about? I'm not being aggressive. But if you say passive aggressive, you go, yeah, but then you have to qualify passive aggressive, which we've been doing for the last, I don't know, two minutes. Yeah, and people are loving it. I am not sure that this will ever air.

Oh, that's great. This is like a practice run to see if I do okay in this interview. And if I do, and we'll run this through the lab, and if I do, then we'll invite you back. Get some quants on it. Yeah. Get some of those, get some of the Bear Stearns people on it.

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That's BlueChu.com promo code SENSES to receive your first month free. Visit BlueChu.com for more details and important safety information. And we thank Bluechu for sponsoring the podcast. Um, I can I tell you something funny? My, uh, yeah, I hope, uh, yeah. Uh, my daughter, uh, said the other day we were, it's completely unprompted.

Completely. We were walking down the street and they were filming a, they're filming something like cross street. And I was like, oh, I wonder what that is. I wonder if I know anybody there or whatever, and whatever they're shooting. And I asked a cop and I said, excuse me, what are they shooting over there?

And she said, a commercial. And then my daughter, impromptu, just seven, goes, oh, I hope it's not a Raymore Flanagan commercial. And I laughed and she, that upset her because she was serious. And I'm like, I've never seen a Raymore and Flanagan commercial with her. I've never I've never seen I don't even how does she know about Raymore and Flanagan she watches like kids shit on Netflix and Amazon. I don't even know that she watches TV. Right

like how where are you? Where are you seeing a furniture commercial enough to know? And why didn't you like it? I don't know. I was laughing and then she got upset. So I couldn't bring it up. I meant to later, but then I forgot, but it was just such a strange thing for a seven year old to go.

Oh, I hope it's not a Raymore and Flanagan commercial. That's funny because, so I grew up on Long Island and Raymore and Flanagan commercial. That's funny because, so I grew up on Long Island and Raymore and Flanagan always advertising as a kid and there were all these local companies, the ads are kind of etched into my brain, Empire carpets and a few others. And you do, they do- Five, eight, eight, two, three hundred, Empire.

Bling. And they do sear into your brain. They loom large in the child's mind. I don't know why that- I can't make the, I can't pick up the phone. You got to call Apex, remember Apex? I can't make the call. It was for like, what do you call it?

Like kind of jobs that are, you know, like skilled labor jobs. Oh yeah, yeah. And there was Apex Academy or whatever it was. And then the guy would, you know, tout Apex and they would always end with like, now I can't call you, you gotta pick up the phone and, It's PC Richards, a bunch of those ads.

And the one I really can't stand, I'm not even gonna bring it up because it's awful and it'll bum everybody out if I do. So I'm not even gonna mention that one. But another one is the the whistles at the end of the, what is it, W.B. Mason? Oh yeah. I don't like that. Get cash now. Those ones. Yeah, and then, but growing up in Georgia, we had some doozies. We had, there was a guy, there was a guy named the Wolfman

because he looked like Wolfman Jack, but he couldn't, he was just like big mush mouth. But you know, one of those guys in the 70s who wanted to be, do his own commercials. And then he would always turn. I actually did it in a Mr. Show sketch sketch just for an audience of one person my friend Mark but it cuts to another can't really he'd be telling this thing you know cuz the furniture and we got front we got a lot of and then would turn to the other

camera they go X for the wolf man and and then we had Bill Spring Toyota, I remember that one. Bill Spring, wait. We deliver more than just a car. Bill Spring Toyota, we deliver. Nice, that's beautiful. Remember that one? That's beautiful, thank you for sharing that. Unclaimed Freight in Hapeville.

Do you think, yeah. Unclaimed Freight in Hapeville. Yeah, are there any more, or do you think, yeah. Unclaimed freight in Hapeville. Yeah. Are there any more or do you think? Let me think of one that when you start going, I'll interrupt you with it. I think Joe Biden's doing a really great job and I love- Knock, knock.

Who's there? Interrupting cow. Interrupting cow. Interrupting cow. No! Do you like talking to me? Like, is this, are you enjoying this conversation? Do you think, do we have a rapport? Because I naturally match, I naturally match

the person I'm sitting across, their energy. I just, that's sort of like instinctively, that's what I do. So I'm trying to, I just match your energy. I feel like I'm sitting across, their energy, that's sort of instinctively, that's what I do, so I'm trying to, I just match your energy, I feel like I'm doing it. Very kind of chameleon-esque? Yes, there's a, there's a, there's a,

there's a, word? Dryness to it, it's sophisticated, it is, Do you think I'm cute? Do I think you're cute? Yeah, I do think you're cute. I think you're cute. Thank you, uh. Do you think I'm cute? Do I think you're cute? Yeah, I do think you're cute. I think you're cute. Thank you, Emma.

See? We have more time, but the name of the book is Democracy or Else. And, uh. I liked when you were reading from it. What? I liked when you were reading from it. Democracy or Else, How to Save America in what? I liked when you were reading from it, democracy or else, how to save America in 10 steps. How to save America in 10 steps.

I'm just gonna give you the steps and then you can pick up a copy yourself. I also would like to note that Josh Holloway, the Senator from Missouri, is that right? Yeah, we wrote it with Josh Holloway, the Senator from Missouri, is that right? Yeah, we wrote it with Josh Holloway, the Senator from Missouri. He was famously put his fist up at the insurrection. Yes.

And then we saw him and we were like, that's the energy we want for this book. Right, right, right. I bet he can write some pretty good jokes about canvassing. And so we went to him. And he's self-deprecating and doesn't take things too, doesn't take himself too seriously. That's what I love about Missouri's Josh Hawley.

He is so self-effacing. He is in on the joke. That's what you say about Josh Hawley, in on the joke. In on the joke, yeah. So no, this is Josh Holloway. Who is a fantastic writer for Kimmel. Great, you'll see this, but if you're watching this on YouTube,

you'll see there's John Favreau, John Lovett, Tommy Vitor? Vitor, yeah. Vitor, and then teeny little letters underneath with, and that's how you have to say it. So it's democracy or else, how to save America, and 10 easy steps from the host of Pod Save America. That's us.

John Favreau, John Lovett, Tommy Vieter, with Josh Holloway. That's perfect. That's great. That's exactly how you say it. And. Well, because we host the show, right? So it's a book from the show.

Whatever, dude. I don't need to explain myself to you. Yeah. I don't need to explain fucking shit to you. I'm not, I'm not. You just were, you're not because I stopped you. Step one, be prepared. Yeah, that's right.

Step two, get informed. Step three, vote early and often. Yeah, that's a little joke. Now, come on. That's a little joke. Step four, the early and often. Now, come on. That's a little joke. That's a little joke. All right. Step four, the buck starts here.

Do you like me? Yeah. Okay. That's why I just, great, keep going. Yeah. Like on a scale of one to 10? No, I don't wanna get specific. I don't wanna get granular with it.

It was a yes or no, cause I won't pass, fail here. This is pass, fail for me. Okay. Step five, volunteer. Step six. I like you by the way, you didn't ask, but I do like you. Well, I don't care. Step six, organize. You don't care at all?

No. Why am I interrupting you while you're doing such a nice thing of taking people through the book? I don't know. I mean, that's a question for you to ask yourself and think about. Why are you subverting your, are you afraid of success? Do you have a fear of it?

No, I love it. All right, so then why? Why? Yeah, why are you? I think I'm trying to add levity to it because I'm uncomfortable with the direct engagement with the material. I think that's what it is. Okay.

This material or my material? The material of you doing a nice thing of walking people through the book. Okay. The earnest generosity that you're putting on display. You're at Get In informed, I believe. Oh no, yeah. Organize.

Step seven, give yourself a break. Read from that earlier. Step eight, make politics your job. Step nine, the most important election of our lifetime. Yours. That's right. That's in parentheses with an exclamation mark. Step 10, a race with no finish line.

I like that idea. Let's go to about the authors on page 180. Oh, there they are. Oh, you really cleaned up nice for this photo here. Yeah. You don't think I look the same? No. About the author.

Former Obama White House aides. Oh, no kidding. You didn't do read a fucking thing before I came here. You don't know anything about me. I don't know anything about you. I know of the podcast. I haven't listened to it, but I know Pod Save America. Yeah, yeah.

I think, did you guys, was I gonna do that one time, your podcast? That sounds about right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What happened? I'm not sure. You were busy. Something came, I believe. And it's very popular, right? It's very- Pretty popular, yeah. Yeah, it, yeah. What happened? I'm not sure. You were busy. Something came, I believe.

It's very popular, right? It's pretty popular, yeah. Yeah, it's very, and you guys tour. We do. You guys do it live. We're doing a show tonight in Brooklyn. Oh no kidding, where? The Paramount Theater.

Oh shit, dude, that's a brand new one on. Yeah, it's brand new. Oh, it's beautiful. Yeah, we'll be there. Oh, nice, nice. It's sold out. Okay. If you were gonna, I just.

No, no, tonight's my trivia. Oh, what kind of, you do trivia? Yep. It's sold out. Okay. If you were gonna, I just. No, no, tonight's my trivia. Oh, what kind of, you do trivia? Yep. That's fun. I do it at a Bilt Bar in Vanderbilt. Oh, nice. Is that a gay, I go to gay trivia, gay bar trivia. You go to a straight bar, I bet.

It's, well, it's right down the street from a branded saloon, which is, you know. So it's near a gay bar. It's near a gay bar adjacent. So it's a straight, but it is, you can just say it's not a gay bar. It's near it's like a straight but it is you were you know, It's not a gay bar. It's a it's a You won't say that. It's not a gay bar. You'd like it's near a gay bar. No, no, no, it's it's pro It's you you can see it's no one says fag there anything. It's like a good no. No, it's not and that's okay Then they can have one of the gayest people I know is a bartender there. Oh, that's cool. It has the

You know Nathan No, but he is has Quite literally the gayest tattoo I've ever seen Wow, what is it? What is it? I? Don't want to blow up his spot, but he has on his back, he has all the kind of realistic. It's a whole bunch of people. So it's like, it's all the gay icons, Marilyn Monroe and who's the anti-mame lady? The, nah, Carol Channing.

Carol Channing, a tattoo of Carol Channing? Yeah, Liza Minnelli. Wow. Oh, it's awesome. His back is, it's the gayest back I've ever seen. So here's the question. What is gayer? Having every gay icon, Judy Garland, all of them, just in a row on your back,

or just a tattoo of an arrow pointing at your asshole? Oh, the icon's a gay icon. You mean it's gay? Yeah. Okay, that's actually a nice sentiment, right? Because it argues in a nice way that being gay is about more than just sex. Of course. It's a set of qualities, maybe not shared by all,

but collectively we recognize, sort of belong in this category of being gay, which is sweet. Yeah, I like that. It's a celebration and a love of mediocrity. I think a lot of the- Interesting. Yeah, I think a lot of- What do you mean by that? A lot of the... Interesting. Yeah, I think a lot of... What do you mean by that?

A lot of the gay, I don't find Judy Garland particularly great actress or great singer, she's okay. But I think most of the people beloved, not all of them, but there's a lot of like, huh, well, they're not that. That's interesting. I don't think that's, so Judy Garland-

Madonna's like, all right. That is fucking insane. Did that hurt your feelings? No, my feelings, no, you're hurting my feelings. I don't get any esteem from Madonna's reputation. That's not how I walk around. It's like, boy, I feel good today. People really like Madonna.

But no, I think- You're just shocked that I could have that. Whitney Houston. This is so easy. That's so funny. This is so easy. So I think with Judy Garland, just to focus on Judy Garland for a moment.

Marilyn Monroe, Overrated. Well, gunned down in her prime, but, but. Gunned down by medicine? By barbiturates? Yeah. Lady Di. Princess Diana. Overrated.

Yeah, I don't think she was a very good singer either, but that's not what so sort of her reputation was in, right? She wasn't known for being a great singer. No, she was the queen of singer either, but that's not what sort of her reputation was in, right? She wasn't known for being a great singer. No, she was the queen of the people. Sure, right. Yeah, but the, like I think some of, I think someone like- Luther Vandross.

Right, famous queer icon Luther Vandross. Also on the back, I assume, right there. Luther wasn't there. Between Judy and Madonna, but no, like I think that some of these people be kind of. Carrot Top. Carrot Top, obviously. Yeah, well, there's that bar by the Stonewall now, the Carrot Top that's named after him just in celebration.

Are you serious? No. Okay. That was well done. That was all right. I got him, yeah. I saw. How many, see that? So I'm gonna, you know, I'm warming up.

I'm moving up that scale. Don't wanna know what the number is. Don't wanna know where I'm at, but I? So I'm warming up, I'm moving up that scale. Don't wanna know what the number is. Don't wanna know where I'm at, but I feel like I'm moving up. So I think some of these people, I think Judy Garland has these beautiful performances. Maybe, I don't know technically how she's a singer, but they're so emotional.

And I do think some of these people become gay icons. Yes, I think people really love how they perform, but there's a quality of seeing in the way they have to be a public figure where they're putting on a show that's sort of big, almost drag-like. But despite that, you can see how hard it is, how much pain they're in, right? I think that's true of Diana, that's true of Judy Garland, that's true of Madonna, that's true of Britney Spears. And actually, you wonder like, well, why isn't someone like,

you know, like Lady Gaga, I think you see that. Like there's a quality in which they're putting on this big, big show, but you can see that like, they're struggling with something internal, that they're putting on this big, big show, but you can see that, like, they're struggling with something internal, that they're putting on a mask. And I think that I think gay people really connect to that. That makes sense. Yeah. I don't so I don't think it's because it's celebration of mediocrity.

Wait, are you gay? All right. I I got you for a second, right? No, not at all? All right. Emma, how many gay people have we had on this show? I'd have to check the spreadsheet. Get out the spreadsheet. It's gotta be.

Check that pink column and see how many exes there are. It's gotta be like, We've got a few. Seven or eight at this point. So how many more do I have to have on? It is pride month. It is pride month. And you said you had Robbie Hoffman on.

Yep, yep. All right, so that's a second. Who's your favorite closeted, gay politician? So that's a great question But I will thank you John But I will tell you something that was that my how I experienced DC which is When I was I so I moved down to DC after college and I was where'd you go to college? I went to Williams College, okay, Massachusetts and I ended up at this shows here Oh, yeah. Yeah, very liberal arts. Yeah. Yeah, it's like a small. Yeah mountain town always had fun there. It's great town great sandwiches. So

Great sandwiches great sandwiches. Anyway moving on. I look I think there's good pokeballs No, I'm not Sorry, I just wanna I want pokeballs. No, I'm not Sorry, I just wanna I want to come back to what I'm saying, but I want to talk about pokeballs for a second Cuz I think it's also important. So My whole life we go to the index here pokeballs. Oh, yeah 1752 102. All right, so pokeballs Yeah, if you go to a sushi restaurant, there's something exquisite, no matter where you are,

no matter where you are in the country, in the world, if you're at a sushi restaurant, there is someone taking great care, because there's a bargain, and the bargain is, we're about to serve you raw fish. And because of that, we take it really seriously, and we slice it very carefully, and you know that we took great, paid attention

to its quality to make sure that it was safe. And the fact that there is sushi is a testament to incredible care and protection of this exquisite fish. So we slice it and we serve it on a plate and you eat it. That same fish is scooped from a fucking bowl with a literal ice cream scoop into a bowl. And I don't understand how in one setting the fish must be treated with great respect and care and in the other the same raw salmon is scooped.

Would you like one? Fish by the fucking scoop? Scoops of fish. What are we doing? What are we doing here? What are we doing here? What are we doing here? What are we doing here? What are we doing here? You don't, you don't relate to that. That didn't, that didn't, that didn't vibrate. Well, I just, I know the answer. That's all.

What's the answer? I mean, it's a cheaper grade fish. Right. And it's mixed with so much stuff that you don't, you're not getting any subtlety or nuance in the flavor. And so it doesn't need to be, you know, if you did that kind of, you know, you're not getting any subtlety or nuance in the flavor. And so it doesn't need to be, you know, if you did that kind of, you know, you're not

getting any subtlety or nuance in the flavor. And so it doesn't need to be, you know, if you did that kind of, you know, you're not getting any subtlety or nuance in the flavor. And so it doesn't need to be, you know, if you did that kind of, you know, you're not getting any subtlety or nuance in the flavor. And so it doesn't need to be, you know, if you did that kind of, you know, you're not getting any subtlety or nuance in the flavor. And so it doesn't need to be, you know, if you did that kind of, you know, you're

not getting any subtlety or nuance in the flavor. And so it doesn't need to be, you know, if you did that kind of, you know, you're not getting any subtlety or nuance in the flavor. And so it doesn't need to be, you know, if you did that kind of, don't, you're not getting any subtlety or nuance in the flavor. And so it doesn't need to be, you know, if you did that kind of attach that precious quality to it of preparation, it wouldn't, because you're putting it in a bowl. So if I'm going- But I just mean like the healthy, like the like. No, it's what, 14, 15 bucks, you get the hygiene.

But it's raw fish by the scoop. Yeah Is it is the the cutlery your issue is something about the scooping and the scooping you don't like so what if they had like a slotted spoon like a Like a better something you might stir a stew with so when I was in DC I Was I was 22 23 just started working in politics. Oh, this is pre-Poke bowls. This is, yeah, Poke bowls not even on our fucking radar.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No iPhones, no Poke bowls. You remember where you were when you first had your first Poke bowl? I remember hearing about Poke bowls, and then they were everywhere. Yeah. And then they went away. Do you notice that? They're still around.

But not as much. It was a moment where there was a poke restaurant in every corner. You know why they went out to some of them. There's not enough scoops. Not enough physical scoopers. Yeah, well a lot of tennis elbow. And a lot, just about every Cold Stone Creamery

is now a poke bowl and they didn't have to change much. Right, right, just unplug the place where the eyes and the frozen platter thing. And then plug the scoop back in. You guys edit this down, right? You edit this, you sort of find the best bits. Nope. Just goes out like this.

Yep. And I love that. And that's the rawness that people assume come. We're talking about sushi and poke bowls, so yeah, rawness applies. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So I had a-

Knock, knock. Who's there my My poo My poo so so I So I... Pfft. Ha ha! Ha ha! Ha ha! I'm the one knocking. I'm the one who was knocking, right? Yeah, it's like...

And then it's like... What do you want, sir? You had your laughs, you're at my fucking door. I was just... I was gardening. Am I opening the door or not? That's up to you, man That's up to you poo and I had a way of I think figuring out when I was dealing with an older closeted guy

because when you're 22 23 in DC I Would notice that I would meet some I don't know an older politician or official or high ranking aide or something, and they don't remember you because you're not useful, you're nothing. And every once in a while, there'd be some older guy and he'd be like, John, we met. And I just would clock it and be like,

that must be an older gay guy. That's a closeted gay guy. That's interesting. And one of them was Ken Melman, who was the head of the Republican National Committee. I didn't meet him then. I don't know how I met him and what circumstances I met him. But he was a Bush guy.

He was a Bush guy. And he was the architect or one of the architects of putting marriage equality bans, gay marriage bans on state ballots. In 2004, as part of Bush's victory, constitutional amendments banning gay marriage got onto a ton of state constitutions. People were really anti and it worked.

It was a great part of their strategy to turn out evangelicals. And Ken Melman is one of the architects, but he remembered my name. And I was like, I have a feeling. I have a feeling. And then years later he came out. Yeah.

And I said, well, that's why I remember me. There was, cause I was a gay kid. But is that theory? I had a multiple year relationship with Ken Melman. Right. A multiple, a multiple year, very romantic, intimate relationship. So that- Did you get to kiss her?

We didn't do that. That wasn't how it worked. Right. This sucks, talking about this sucks. But no, but he remembered me and I thought, oh, that's interesting. And then years later he came out. But have you been able to apply that theory to other examples?

Yeah, there were other people. Yeah, there were like, yeah, no one of that. Enough to go, oh, if he knows my name, then. It was like three or four. I was like, there was a few, there were a few moments where, oh, right, like that's a kind of, it was still, there were still those guys that were of a generation where it was like a secret,

but not a well-kept secret. Right, well there's still plenty of those. Still plenty of those, yeah. So I think it's been a while and I haven't asked this question yet. Israel versus Palestine. Right. Big, big topic for sure. Definitely. Where do you stand? Where do you fall in this?

Where do I fall on that topic? Yeah. Israel v Palestine. Right. I don't want to say versus. I think that's not the right way to. I think framing it as a versus is probably not. That's not where you want it to be. That's why I just say V, which I know is short for versus, but it sounds, it's more visa V. And it is very difficult to reconcile

the conflicting feelings of being someone who wants to support a Jewish state and a democratic. We'll edit out all the pauses in between. For sure. Oh, you think I should speak without care on this topic? You think I should just fucking spout off on this? You think there's not enough of that? You think there's too many people being careful about how they speak about this and not enough

people just saying whatever the fuck comes to their head? That's your view on this topic. Your view on this topic is not enough people are taking their time. You're asking me a question and then not answering for me. No, I feel like I'm taking my power back. No, no. I'm sorry, you're right. I mean, I'm being crazy.

No, I would like more people to not be so careful, yes. I am not being careful because I'm afraid to say what I think. I think there's plenty of people who are careful because they're afraid to say what they think. I am being careful because I want to articulate clearly what I think. And so if I am pausing, that is why I'm pausing.

If that's okay with you. Or you can keep pointing it out. You got a little touchy with that one. Oh yeah, you think Israel's a sensitive topic for some people? Yeah, but I want you to say what you were going to say. Yeah, yeah. No, so, and I feel that tension between believing, wanting to believe in the project of Israel

and being absolutely horrified and disgusted by the conduct of the war and the unimaginable human suffering being inflicted by Benjamin Netanyahu and the hopeless feeling of also believing that not only is it morally, ethically indefensible, not only has it killed an untold number of innocents and children, but that it has done nothing to bring hostages back, which would be one of the stated goals, or make Israel safer in the long term. And with every day this goes on,

a peace and a kind of free Palestine in which the millions of Palestinians who do not have human rights because they are bestowed by Israel or anyone else, but because they belong to them, because they are their human rights, the longer we go where they don't have the rights that belong to them and the freedom that belongs to them, and the longer in which Israel is not safe

and Israel is not a place... Are you fucking kidding me? Are you fucking kidding me? Are you fucking kidding me? Go ahead, that's my phone. That noise plays in the middle of that fucking answer. And I know you didn't plan that. It couldn't have been. No, I did not plan that. My phone has its own sense of timing.

And it really was perfect. It really was very funny. And I hate it. That's my point, okay? I agree with you 100%. I don't think they're mutually exclusive ideas. I think you can feel both things. You can feel like the,

you can be a Zionist and you can also say what Israel is doing is horrific, illegal, unethical, disgusting, et cetera etc. etc. That's what that's Parkour, right-wing Netanyahu who need he can't have a two-state solution. And he was part of, you know, fucking up, not fucking up, but He was part of, you know, fucking up, not fucking up, but not dismantling because it wasn't a thing, but Oslo, you know, accords that he can't, he wouldn't be anywhere without this or, you know, and it's all about him for him. Yeah. So, and it's too bad that children have to suffer, but, no, I got heavy.

Thank you, Phony. John, thank you so much for coming down and doing the show. Thank you. Absolutely. I close, I end every show, every episode with a question from my daughter. Okay. Okay. She's seven.

Okay. John. Yes. Of Pod Save America. Which John are you? I'm John Lovett. Okay, John Lovett of Pod Save America and the new book, Democracy or Else, How to Save America in 10 Easy Steps.

The bulk of it was written by Josh Holloway. Let's give a shout out to him. Yeah, shout out to Josh. And one thing I wanna say about the book, which people, we're what? Just enjoying the back? Yes. Mid. From Joe Scarol.

See, look at this. We're getting a full laugh from David Cross, just from the blurbs on the back. This is a funny book. Okay. It's a good book. And we're donating, Crooked is donating the profits from the book

to Vote Save America, which is organizing on the ground and helping to support campaigns on the ground in 2024. So the book itself is a way to raise money for helping to protect democracy. Wanna note that. Great, great. And even more importantly,

you can go to the website, officialdavidcross.com for any of my upcoming dates. That's right. And the summer stage show on August 8th. Now, John. Read the blurb from Hillary Clinton. Vaguely amusing and a relief when it's over, much like every conversation with Lovett.

That's terrible. No, it's an awful thing to say. Well, I think her fuck her. I fucking can't stand her. What a mean. What a just. This is from my daughter. One here on here. So, John, love it.

That's right. My daughter would like to know, and you can answer in any way you see fit. Israel v. Palace, no, no, that was from last week. Is it? I'm sorry, hold on. Are they all like this? Yes.

Okay. So you've never listened to the podcast Well, see yeah, that seems hard to hard to hard to lie now Wow. Oh, so See, did you remember did I get defensive when you said that you'd heard of this show and the only really relevant any knowledge You had of it. It was canceling an appearance on it and I wasn't defensive. I said, oh, that's okay Oh, did I cancel I didn't cancel did I said, oh, that's okay. Did I cancel? I didn't cancel, did I? Well, I don't think we canceled you.

And you thought you were booked, so where'd you go? Oh, I'm just, I'm trying to remember if that was the case. I thought maybe it came up in a... Oh, that could be, you're right. When the publicist said... No, yeah, that's me. So you just didn't want to do it? No, no, no, I would have done it.

I like doing podcasts, they're fun. So you think we said no? No, I'm, no, no, I would have done it. I like doing podcasts. They're fun. So you think we said no? No, I'm saying I don't know that that was the case. I knew of... Someone maybe mentioned it as something. Yeah. And we might have mutual friends. I'm sure we do.

I bet we do. Liza Minnelli? Yeah, no, Liza Minnelli is a dear friend. Yeah. Yeah. I've worked with her. You did work with Liza Minnelli. What a life you've led.

Wow, for someone with this personality, you've done so well. It's really amazing. What a country, what a country. All right. So John, here's a question from my daughter for the podcast. How many inches is the earth?

How many inches is the earth? So let's let's game that out for a second. Let's game that out for a second. So I'm going to take that to mean circumference. OK, I guess we could you could think about radius, but I think how many inches is the earth feels like circumference? Yeah, I don't know for sure, but that's probably what she's thinking. So how far is LA from New York? Like 3,000, 4,000 miles? Something like that?

No, I actually know this. It's... If you walked or as the crow flies? Like as the crow flies like as the crow flies You said you knew and then you asked another question now you're staring at me Hmm. I will edit this part out this part. You're out of town this part. You know, you'll clean up the parts that yeah I know that that's what I would do. That's smart. That's a cool way to do Google crow fly So let's say it's 3000 miles Emma, Google, crow, fly.

So let's say it's 3000 miles. LAX, New York City. So let's say it's 3000 miles and it takes like five or six hours in a plane. Well, depending on which direction you're heading. Right. What time of year, what time of year. For sure, for sure.

And then if you go to like Japan or something, it'll take like 11 or 12, but I don't think that's a smart way to do it. I'm gonna say, how far around would the earth be? If it's, let's say it's 3000 miles, say it's like, I don't know, what would the circumference be? Like let's say-

How many inches are in a mile? Let's figure that one out. Well, I was gonna go to feet and then to mile, right? So it's about 5,000 feet in a mile. So about 60,000 inches in a mile, so about 60,000 inches in a mile. Right. So we're at 60,000 inches, 60,000, let's say it's 20,000 around,

just picking out a number out of the top of my hand. 20,000 inches? Well now you just fucked up my, that's not right. No. So let's say we 20 000 miles times 60 000 so it's 20 million times 60 Is 120 million inches right or no 100 1.2 billion inches 1.2 billion inches. I wonder if that's close

Emma I'm looking it up. I have a phone. Why are you calling out? Like we don't have fucking phones Your phone just interu... Your phone did a perfectly timed comedic interruption of a serious answer about Israel and Palestine. Oh, you're putting your shoes on. I guess we're fucking wrapped. It was getting a little long-winded, John. I mean, you were...

Honestly, you were starting to... I was trying to land on the fucking plane. It's a tough topic. You're not terribly far off. How far what's the answer? 1.575 billion Wow good really good pretty good really really good Wow, I mean In a sense, I mean obviously you're still off by billions and billions. No, I'm actually not. Oh 1.75 billion right right. I'm off by 300 million. Yeah, that's great.

But in terms of orders of magnitude, pretty good. How well would you have done? Would you have thought it through the way I did? Yeah, I mean, eventually. Right. But I wouldn't have given it that much thought. Well, what would you have done? If you were asked a question, how many inches is the Earth?

Would you have just come up with a funny little joke and then ended it? I probably would have gone, I don't know Google it. Oh, that's cool. That's a fun answer Well, no, it's not a fun answer That's why I asked you and you came up with and we got to see your whole process how it works, right? You know, you know what I should do is I'll ask that Question to another guest and see what they That'll be fun. Yeah.

And we'll compare the two. All right, John. Thank you very much. Sense is Working Over Time is a Headgum podcast created and hosted by me, David Cross. The show is edited by Katie Skelton and engineered by Nicole Lyons with supervising producer Emma Foley. Thanks to Demi Druchen for our show art and Mark Rivers for our theme song.

For more podcasts by Headgum, visit headgum.com or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Leave us a review on Apple podcasts and maybe we'll read it on a future episode. I'm not gonna do that. Thanks for listening. That was a Headgum podcast.