Senses Working Overtime with David Cross - Michael R. Jackson

Episode Date: June 26, 2025

Michael R. Jackson (A Strange Loop) joins David to talk about AI, opening other peoples’ mail, and more. Catch all new episodes every Thursday. Watch video episodes here.Guest: Michael R. JacksonSubscribe and Rate Senses Working Overtime on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and leave us a review to read on a future episode!Follow David on Instagram and Twitter.Follow the show:Instagram: @sensesworkingovertimepodTikTok: @swopodEditor: Kati SkeltonEngineer: Chris OsbornExecutive Producer: Emma FoleySee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a HeadGum Podcast. I'm here, I'm here. Also Michael, this is Jake. Hey Jake, how's it going? Anybody ever look like a Jake? It's this gentleman right here. You look so Jake-ish to me. Thank you for coming. Where are you coming in from? Just from home.

Where's home? Washington. Oh, okay. This is going to sound like it's a joke, but it's not. Are you friendly with or are you neighbors with Lynn, Manuel, Miranda? He lives right around the corner from me. Does he really? That's awesome. And did you grow up there like he did? No, no, no. I've lived there for 17 years, but no.

I don't know. Don't ask me. I'm not familiar. Yeah, 17 years I think it's been. But you know, he's literally right around the corner in this building called Castle Village. I think that's so awesome of him that he lives in the same exact place where he grew up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spent his whole life. And his family's there and all that. He's like a real, like a neighborhood, like, watch heights. Yeah, yeah. Like, dude. Like, he's like a neighborhood like watch heights like dude like he's like a like a

cheerleader I think that's cool and he's a really good guy he's like one of the kindest people I've ever met I'd never met him before I did this this thing on Broadway with him wait yeah. Oh, I saw the first wave of people. I had Anna Lee Ashford on here. She was here two days ago. And we'll talk about that in a second. But who was also in it? And man, what a treat.

And man, the guy could not be nicer. Yeah, he's like super sweet. Oh, well, if who decided to join us. He's like, well, well, well. And he's like, helped me personally on stuff. Like it's, like I owe him quite a lot. Yeah, he's a good guy. All right, enjoy.

All right, thank you Emma. And like yourself, a bit of a comedy nerd. Really? Yeah. Wait, am I a comedy nerd? That's of a comedy nerd. Really? Yeah. Wait, am I a comedy nerd? That's not a bad thing. It's not. What do you mean by that? Well, you like.

Comedy, you like comedy that nerds like. Wait, what such as Mr. Show? Yes, yes. Done. End of sentence. OK. All right. When I I don't mean nerd in a bad way. Okay. All right. At all. Well, no, I'm not like, I wouldn't call-

I'm a nerd. I'm a comedy nerd. I mean, I like the comedy I like, but I never thought of myself as like a real connoisseur of it. I didn't say you were a connoisseur. Which means that I associate with the comedy nerd. Okay. Dumb. An appreciation for it.

I do appreciate good comedy. And I only know this because you told me as much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I also like hate a lot of comedy. Oh, me too. Or feel complicated about it. Or like don't understand the current era of it. Well, that's because you're getting old.

Because I'm getting old, but also- And you're in the arts. I'm in the arts, but also the switch from linear to digital is very confusing for me. A lot of stand-ups certainly have that same view. A lot of older stand-ups. Not even older. I mean, I'm older. I'm talking about like stand-ups that are in their like

late 30s, early 40s are, in fact, they're more vocal. I'm at the point where I'm like, yeah, whatever. I mean, it's, you know. I mean, I just, to me, I'm not even like, it's not even about like or don't like. It's just like, I'm trying to understand it. Cause sometimes I look at, cause now my algorithm is always sending me these people

who I don't know. And I'm sort of like, wait, so you're digesting everything on Twitter and then repurpose and then you, so like when we talk about AI and chat, you've seen shit. I'm like, you're, you're doing it. Like when I think about AI, we were doing it first. How were we doing it first?

Meaning like, I feel like it's a snake chasing its tail. Like there's, I feel like there's human AI and there's like digital AI. And the digital AI is just mimicking us, mimicking it, mimicking us, mimicking it. It goes around in a circle. And so like these people who just gobble everything up on the internet to then go do their sets, I see what you're saying.

They're AI. I see what you're saying. So like if you're mad at AI, you are doing it. Figuratively, not literally. Yeah, I get you. I get you. Like AI is just filling, it's just like filling, it's like, oh, there's a market for this. Well, the A in AI is artificial. So that will just like filling, it's like, oh, there's a market for this. Well, the A in AI is artificial.

So that will, you know, that says everything. But the leap from like what I came up on to this new thing, I'm just like, oh, that happened. Well, that's again, that's part of the, I want to say frustration and I guess, what's the right word? Some of these comics, I'm going to say in between the ages of 38 and 47, let's say that, I think there's a bit of jealousy because of the shortcuts that people are allowed to take. Yep, 100%. I mean, the people who have become like these multimillionaires overnight on YouTube is enraging.

Yes, I agree. But at the same time that it's enraging, I don't want to do that because then I would have to be that. Right. Well, the frustration comes in, I think, in part. I don't feel as strongly about it as some of these other guys and women, guys just general, who get really it's sort of it's akin to my generation of stand ups feelings towards. Back in the day when people would get into stand up so they could get on a sitcom right there's a lot of that you don't really see that anymore. And also sitcoms don't hold the weight that they used to. And the ones that exist are terrible. Well, they were back then too, for the most part, per capita.

Yes, but the great ones were great. Yeah, for sure. But there were, you know, there was a lot of garbage and a lot of apples, a lot of shitty apples in the garbage filled with the garbage is apples and some of them are okay. So there's shitty apples in the garbage, Filled with the garbage is apples and some of them are okay. So there's shitty apples in the garbage, but the garbage itself is all apples. So why even mention the garbage? Because we know that's okay. That's on me. Let's use another fruit clementines. Clementines. Who doesn't? Well, there are some people and the acid doesn't they don't react well to the acidic nature of it. But um,

All right, fuck it. We'll use a different fruit pear a Bosch pear. I'm indifferent to pears Grapes everybody loves no, I don't like grapes. You don't like I don't dislike great. I don't dislike grapes I'm just not that into grapes. Okay. What's your favorite? I'm sorry. What's your least favorite artificial fruit flavor when you have it in like cake or candy or whatever? Artificial will probably be cherry. Okay. Mine's banana. I like a good banana, but I don't like artificial banana. I don't think I've ever had artificial banana. You have. You have. Michael, you have have. What would I have artificial banana in? May I remind you of the special weekend we spent in Reno in August of 2018? We went to the convention. The artificial banana convention. Okay.

All right, you took me. I was how I was Struggling with addiction at that time. So this is why I may not remember that you do so you don't okay Actually, can I say you weren't struggling you were like full on in it? You had just you were doing okay with the dig. I was in the throes of a day. Yeah. Yeah Yes going back to the so the thing, you know And you were doing okay with addiction. I was in the throes of addiction. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, going back to the... So the thing, you know, the dismissive contempt that my generation of comics had for people like I'm going to get into standup and I'm going to get my seven minutes and I'm going

to go on the improv and I'm going to kind of affect this character and then I'm going to get famous and I'll go on a sitcom or do whatever. That was, I feel the same sense from these younger standups who are, you know, I think part of it is just being on the road and the grind of being on the road and paying your dues, quote unquote. And then some of these folks are coming up and they're getting Netflix specials and they're multi-multi-multi-millionaires and they have not, you know, quote unquote, paid their dues, which is relative. You know, and I think that's what's angering a lot of these standups. So, you know, finding that that takes away from their idea of the purity of standup comedy. Yeah, but I guess my take on it is I'd like to think that my take on it is a little bit different

in that I understand people have always gotten in through backwards doors and unfairness and nepotism and all those things. So like, I get that. I'm literally talking about the actual jokes and the actual comedy. Yes, that's a, that's- That for me is the thing where I'm like, I'm trying to figure it out and I'm like, wait,

have people become, this is to me is where like the human AI of it is the mystery and the X that I've been trying to solve for myself because it seems like people will be like, gah, gah, gah, gah, gah, gah, gah, gah, gah, gah, gah, gah, over something that I think, like I'm like, where's the joke? Like, where is it?

Michael, I think that's generational. I think every, and that applies to literature and drama and all kinds of, I think older people have a little bit more difficulty in seeing the thing, music, of like, you like that? That's garbage. In my day, we listen to this, you know. But I think the difference is that it's not like I have like highfalutin comedic sensibility or highfalutin musical sensibility. Certainly there's like, I do have some of those. Well, where is your trash?

I also like trash. But even when even the trash sort of becomes not even trashy, like it's just bland. I know, but that's- And the blandness is the part where I'm like, wait, isn't it supposed to be like hilarious? Dude, I'm agreeing with you, but I'm saying that that is something that- But you think that's generational? I do. I do. All right.

And so where is your level offalutin? If you're not highfalutin, are you, when it comes to comedy, are you midfalutin? I mean, to me, I take each thing as it comes. Like, it either is funny or it's not to me. Your falutin-ness is all over the place, depending on- Yeah. Like, some stuff I think is great, and some of it I think is bad, and some of it I think is bad and some of it I just don't get. And I know that some of it I'm not going to get because I'm not 27. But I also know that like when I was 27, like there were older people who I related to. And now I relate neither to the older to the young. And so part of what I'm even responding to is that one thing that used to be more true, and I say this in music and arts in general, is that there was actual a kind of cross-generational,

there were people who had cross-generational appeal or that the idea that you could appeal not just to your demographic seemed to be more of a thing and that feels to be less of the case. Now, that being said, there's a lot of people out there that I don't know. Some of this is just a function of the fact that we have a more individualized, personalized, algorithmized environment. So there's also going to be a lot of standups or musicians or artists or whoever who I don't know who do what I'm describing. Same.

But it used to be that it was easier to see all of it in one place. Well, there was less to see. And there was less to see. In some ways, I personally think it's better, but that is a generational thing. I agree I think it's generational but I agree with you I Think the younger generation would disagree. Mm-hmm. I Mean at some point somebody I'm sure has said in the last couple years like oh my god

Can you imagine if there were only like 500 channels on TV? What I mean, that would be fucked up, you know, or can you imagine what, what was, what did people do before Tik Tok? Yeah. And as Joni Mitchell has this lyric in one of her songs, uh, that goes to kind of crazy, you get from too much choice. And I like resonate with that. It's like too much. Yeah.

I, it's like, it's, it's's so it makes it hard to even appreciate one thing. I've learned that. I've watched, you know, with raising my daughter, like one of the red, you know, one of the things that I've learned I shouldn't do is offer her too many choices. You give her, it's a, everything goes better for everybody if you go, hey, what do you want me to make you for lunch? Do you want tuna fish or do you want the blah blah? And she'll say something. If I give her five choices, she doesn't want any of them.

She wants something else and what, you know, it's just an easier thing. But I think it's time did you just burp? I did. Should we enhance that in post? I don't know what the rules of the road are but if that works then you can enhance that. Okay so what I'd like to do is like a really echoey, guttural belch. But then at the end, at the very end, just so you don't, you sort of hear it, it's subtle and you have to go back and rewind it. Rewind it. What? How old am I?

I still have a TVVCR combo in my house and it works. I still have a TVVCR combo in my house and it works. It's just a, it's like a child's voice going, help, if we can put that in there. Okay. I wanna introduce you to everybody. All right. We've been talking here for over, I don't know, good over one minute.

We'll probably cut out like 10 minutes of it. Okay. So I'm here with Michael R. Jackson and you mentioned nepotism before. He is the adopted son of Michael Jackson who and with the R stands for? Rebi. Rebi Riccardo. What? Rebi. Rebi. And why did he?

Why did he give you the art because you were just Michael Jackson. He wanted me to stay in my place Some Rebi was what Is how he was a humble it was a humbler right Rebi will humble you when when you misbehaved did he go Rebi? Yes, goodness so Michael R. Jackson, no relation to... The Dead One. The Dead One, The Fiddler, and... The Diddler.

The Diddler. The Fiddler, Fiddler Diddler. I had so much trouble with the Michael Jackson fans. And no relation because he adopted you. I got in so much trouble with the Michael Jackson fans. And no relation because he adopted you. So you're not like, there's no blood line. He just allegedly. Allegedly.

Oh, interesting. Now it's getting juicy. But you did see his penis. I mean, who hasn't? Who hasn't? Do you even have to ask? So pale and threatening. I didn't know you or your work until my wife, Amber Tamblyn, who we're going to we got to get back on the show because yeah,

we'll figure that out. Yeah, we'll figure that out. She's introduced me to so much theater and musical theater and productions that I would not have availed myself of. 90% of them I wouldn't have gone to or I wouldn't have even been in that orbit. But she is and she's turned me on with much stuff and then in particular, and she nails it pretty much, nine out of 10 times. She told me about this show, it wasn't on Broadway yet. The show, the show. This is a tongue twister. The show she had seen. Yes. Called A Strange Loop. And the whole thing was presented with that like, no.

OK, now just listen to me. Listen to me, because it's going to sound like something you're not going to like. But you're going to love this. It's trust me on this i'm gonna describe it you're gonna go what the fuck and trust me it's amazing and. And i and she described it and i was like i'm not sure she's just go and i went and it. I say when the top five shows I've ever seen anywhere. It was just stunning and I couldn't shut up about it to my friends trying to get everybody to go see it called A Strange Loop. And you won the Pulitzer and the Tony and a Clio. I'm not sure about that one. And Cleo.

I'm not sure about that one. Okay, and what about... Try anything. People's Choice. People's Choice. Okay. For Best Seam Stealer. Soap Opera Digest.

And you also that year or the the musical won the National League's Rookie of the Year in baseball MLB. Like that's how good it was. We were in a league of our own you could say. I wouldn't say that. That's kind of that's a bad joke. I said you could say it. I could say it.

I mean sure I have the capabilities of saying it. I did. Yeah. You did say it. So mean, sure. I have the capabilities of saying it. I did. Yeah. You did say it. So therefore it's true. Fine. Do you see how that works? Um. With a $5 meal deal with new McValue, you pick a McDouble or a McChicken, then get a small fry, a small drink, and a four piece McNuggets. That's a lot of McDonald's for not a lot of money. Prices and participation may vary. but double meal, six dollars in some markets for limited time only. I loved it. It was such an amazing show. And it just like a very brief summation and tell me if this is, you know, this doesn't touch upon.

I always like to hear how other people describe it. Well, I'm going to describe it almost in like a logline technical way, you know, without any of the cool shit about it. So it's a musical about a early 20s? Early 20s. The Black Gay Usher at the Lion King who is writing a musical about a Black Gay Usher at the Lion King. The musical, you see his life and it's already too long, this explanation. But all – there's the supporting cast play various people in his family. There's multiple people who play his dad. And it's really poignant and

really fucking funny. And it's also trippy. And the supporting cast was so fucking good too. Holy shit. They were amazing. I mean, it was so cool and I know that really doesn't give you even halfway complete idea. But it was a super cool musical and I'm not a musical guy either. And then Amber would put on the soundtrack when we'd go upstate and you know there are songs that we really gravitated toward the the the song that is the in with daddy like that was your favorite song you play that every time in with daddy no my no my favorite song was the was the happy birthday message the mom the mom leaves on the phone and it's just a message

She's leaving a message it becomes a song It's if it's it's about happy birthday and she loves her son but then it's all gets all Christian II and it's really funny and Can I tell you the funniest thing to me which which is not the funniest haha moment at all, but the thing that made me go, oh man, this guy's got an ear, this is perfect. I don't know if I told you this. I don't think so. It's one of the characters, he goes home and the family's there and one of the characters

is talking about another character's house in Atlanta and refers to it as a chateau, which I grew up in Atlanta, had a lot of black friends. That is the most like middle-class black Atlanta word for a house that they would call it. Chateau was like, oh my god, nailed it. So I wish I could take full credit for that. That is literally a specific reference to the Real Housewives of Atlanta.

Ah, is it? Because there's a character, a woman who used to be on there named Sheree Wetfield. And there's this whole storyline where she was building a house She called Chateau Chateau Sheree and It was the most absurd and yes the most black middle-class thing of all time and Atlanta specifically So I had to like because the show has a lot of references in it.

And there were certain things as I was writing over the years that like this became important like pop cultural markers, but also like charactery kind of things. Right. Well, there's a ton of that in there. I mean, and it just all like, I'd never heard that before. I was like, man, you nailed it. To this guy in row four, seat 112, I was like, oh, that is the absolute perfect thing for that character to say. I'm a cultural custodian.

Well, I appreciate it. Thanks for cleaning up. We had a spill in aisle four. I'm right there. And unfortunately, and I wouldn't even say surprisingly, I'll say shockingly, it closed like shortly after all these accolades and it couldn't have been that expensive a production amount. Well, I mean. It didn't have like Aladdin shit in it. Yeah, it was a longer run than most, but like by Broadway standards, it was definitely a short run. We ran for like nine months.

Oh, that's, but I mean, that is a long run. But it's, it closed so- We didn't recoup our investment investment but like but it was even after Pulitzers and yeah, but I mean, but that's sort of like honies and but I think that those The the times are changing like those things don't mean as much as they used to especially to the box office, right? It's just a different era. Those sort of things like a Tony win, all used to like, you could like, and it could give you like a lot more, a longer run and it just doesn't mean as much. Just like the critics don't mean as much.

Right. Well, that's a good thing. Which is good, but it's also hard because you also use that to advertise it. But then it's just, it's more word of mouth than anything. The review for, and I haven't seen it so I'm not passing any judgment on it, but one of the current hot shows, Operation Mincemeat, came over from England. On the poster on the subway, it's there there on the seat right now so this morning. The of the reviews the first review above it is. I'm paraphrasing this but it's new york times it says the reviews have been extraordinary.

So not even. So, not even, they're not even giving you a, they're just saying it's been well reviewed. It's not even like the old days. I used to usher The Lion King and they used to have this famous Well, well, well. They used to have this famous quote. I think it was from, it might have been Newsday or something like that. It said, it's like being in a dream awake. Was like one of their big pull quotes and people used to like make fun of it, but I heard the marketing people got mad because that really helps sell them tickets. It's like being in a dream awake.

How the fuck did they know? I don't know. That's bullshit. I don't believe any of that marketing shit. They have metrics. I don't know. I find it fascinating and I'm being facet, that people can have so much power over a project from its inception to being completely finished who are in the marketing department.

The marketing department has, and I learned this the hard way with the run, runny run. The marketing department has all the power and they will take credit for the things that are successful that may not have a fucking thing to do with marketing. And they won't acknowledge their role in shitty marketing or meaningless marketing that had nothing to do with a success or a failure. Oh, I also just remembered another one. I think this was Mamma Mia. I think it was Mamma Mia. You already know you're going to like it.

That was like one of the reviews said that and I just always think that was hilarious. That's, there's a very smart cynicism kind of manipulative, that's like one of those like Darren Brown mind trick things. They can grow rich. Oh, I guess I wasn't going to see it, but I know I'm going to like it already. But my favorite marketing is there was this musical that I think was in the 90s maybe, maybe the 80s, called Grand Hotel. And there was this commercial you can watch on YouTube, and there's this woman who's like, I loved it!

The music, the dancing, it was fabulous! And then later on, the counter, she goes, I'm gonna see it again, two more times, if my husband works in the area. Yeah. It's the greatest commercial ever. And like I heard- He left that in.

Yes, but like I think that that commercial when it was on TV, like in that era, people like got very excited because they did this. It was like that man on the street, like lots of people. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about. They play in the hotel. Yeah, yeah. My husband works in the area.

And it's so good. And they people excited to go see Granite Hotel. I think they wanted Tony or some Tony. For best commercial. For best commercial. They want a Clio Award. There was a, there was a, in Vegas, I'm going way back to 90s. There was a, one of those in room thing, you know, it's just on a loop.

And there was a guy, whatever the show was, I don't know, it was like, you know, who were the gay lion tamer guys? The two, the two. Siegfried and Roy. Siegfried and Roy. They worked out. Rumor has it. And it was one of those big spectacular things. Siegfried and Roy. Siegfried and Roy. They worked out. Rumor has it. It was one of those big spectacular things.

You get the cameras placed way the fuck in the back and you've seen a flash plot or whatever and some things. Then there's cuts to a guy. They're coming out in the lobby. For those of you listening, not watching, he squeezes his eyes. He's describing the show, he goes, it was phasmatastical!

Right? It was like, he made up a word, and he was so moved by the lion moving, it went like it was in a box, and then it wasn't in a box. moved by the lion moving. It went like it was in a box and then it wasn't in a box. And then it was like, it was fast, metastasical. There was a commercial, I think it was for the Lion King, where they had a bunch of other people speaking and this guy goes,

and I bought the mug. Yeah, you were waiting for that. You're watching the whole time going, yeah, but did he get the mug? All right, you know, cut. Don't bury the lead, my friend. Ah, he did. He did buy the mug. What was the mug for? I think it said like Ryan K. It might have been Aladdin.

Was it one of those shows, like, you know, I bought the mug, like was part of the, they cut to this guy. It was just so funny. I used to love those commercials, like, you know, I bought the mug, like, was part of the big cut to this guy. It was just so funny. I used to love those commercials. Oh, I still do. Those are great. And some of them used to play in little monitors outside of the... Or like this in the cab, when you get in the cab.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, Sandy Kenyon here. Oh, man. Was it not Sandy Kenyon? Or who's the guy who who he might still be around. When you get in the taxis in New York, they immediately start this little monitor will play commercials and stuff after like the please buckle up thing. And you can mute it, you can turn it off. And I urge everybody who's going to be visiting the New York City area if you get in a cab

Turn that thing off. It'll be super annoying if you don't you're and you can feel free to turn off or mute it But There's a guy it might it's not I don't think it's Sandy Kenyon. It's he does the you know review the movie review. He's got he's got kind of like a oval shaped head. I'm gonna guess he's around 50 kind of not Sandy Kenyon? Maybe it is Sandy Kenyon. But it's I feel like I know that name from something else.

But he's a guy he just does the review. He doesn't, I don't think he does it for like Channel. Like New York one. Yeah, he doesn't do it for New York one. I don't think it's just like the and he goes, but he will tell you whether to see the movie or not, whether whether you liked it or not. And regardless of whatever movie it is, regardless. So it could be, you know, big and they're mostly like the big tent pole things. My recommendation, see it.

Oh, I know who you're talking about. He's got the beard, the like the goatee. And he does this with this finger. Oh gosh, I can see his face. I know who you're talking about. I can't name his name And because of the nature of whatever they're doing Howard something yeah could be Howard. Yeah

My recommendation. Yeah, Jean. No Jean. No, no, no Jean. I know God I can't do his name. Okay, he Always gives it a positive review. There's no reason. It's just bought and paid for, not necessary. People are going to go see fucking Deadpool and Wolverine anyway, whether the stranger in the back of the cab goes, my recommendation, see it. Minecraft. Yeah. See this movie. What an exciting, you know, there's no real thing.

Can you imagine if that was your job? It's got chills. It's got thrills. And other things that end in ills. I would, I don't know what I would do if that was what I found myself in life as the guy who likes every movie. I don't know what he's paid, what kind of swag he gets. I mean, maybe that's like, you know how to say ignorance is bliss? Maybe like joy is liking every movie. I don't think he true. You're looking at this in another way. You're looking at it as if he really does love every fucking movie he sees.

I think perception is reality. I like that idea, Michael, because I saw I was being more cynical and thinking... Well, I'm actually being really cynical, meaning if ignorance is bliss, then joy is liking every movie. If you just like every movie uncritically with no thought, maybe that's every movie. Like if you just like every movie uncritically with no thought, maybe that's like the most joyful you could be. Like in a kind of, they live, I'm wearing an shirt that says they live, based on that John Carpenter. I'm a nerd in that regard. I'm definitely a whore in that regard. But like, it's kind of zombie, pod people way. You love everything. Right. So it's not unlike when you see a clearly mentally ill person and they're cackling, laughing and you're like, I mean, they're laughing. I'm not laughing. I'm kind of bummed

out right now just thinking about all this crazy shit. Should I change places and become mentally ill? Even though I smell like like piss they are laughing and they're happy Yes, although the funny thing I always want to write either a song or write a joke into something about crazy people Always know when to get off the train They could be like literally like in a full-blown moment, but it's like 125th street. Oh, there's my stop. And they get off every time.

So there's some positives. Yeah. I see what you're saying. There used to be a guy, I lived in Dubbo for a couple of years, and there was a guy who would be on the corner of of front and whatever it was, Washington or something, and he would ask for money and had a cane and not aggressive at all and just like, hey brother, what's up?

I see him and sometimes I give him money, most of the time it's not. I see him and sometimes I give him money, most of the time it's not. And then one day, seven, eight months into this whole thing, I just assumed he lived in the area. I see him getting off of the C train at High Street and holding his cane and just walking down. It was like, oh, this is your job. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I see. I used to notice that year.

I don't see as much of that anymore. That in the early days of my New York, I used to see that. He's coming, he's bringing his cane. Yeah. And it's a downhill walk from the, from high street down to Dumbo from Brooklyn Heights. And he would, you know, walk and have his cane, get off the subway High Street down to to Dumbo from from Brooklyn Heights and he and he would

Yeah, you know walk and have his cane get off the subway come down That's uh, yeah, I was like, oh I see I see now I didn't realize you were clocking in for this and then George Jetson I I see now. I didn't realize you were clocking in for this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then- Me and George Judson? I don't get it. He's, never mind. Because he'd clock in? Yes.

Jane, his wife. Yeah, no, I'm- his son, Elroy. His son, Elroy. Yeah. Daughter, Cutie. You're such a nerd. I am. In a good way.

A nerd for some things. I would honestly guess that 50%, if not more, of the people, the guests on this podcast are nerds. All right. In a good way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a nerd. Yeah, you know, I wear it with pride, on my They Live t-shirt.

Yeah, there you go. What are you working on now? I am sort of after three, like many years of like back-to-back shows, I'm sort of like back in my little laboratory. I don't have anything immediately coming up except I have an opera that I wrote the libretto to that'll be in Philadelphia next year Holy shit an opera Philadelphia called complications in sue I'm working with

Is it complications in? Ien sue sue like the ladies name correct. Is it really? Shit, I'm good with the puns. Yes. I'm good with the Broadway puns. Yeah, but that'll be in Philadelphia next year. So that's sort of the only thing that's sort of. Michael, is that for real? Is it Complications in Suit? Yeah.

Oh, the puns. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So working on that with a bunch of different, it's a piece that has a bunch of composers. It's not just one composer. Not just doing the libretto. And other than that, I'm just like, I have some old commissions I'm working on. So I'm kind of just like in the trenches. When, when, uh, when A Strange Loop, like took off, did you find, did you almost like in a, in the perception,

Like in the perception, the outsider's perception way, did you kind of overnight like have all this work that was, were you approached for all this stuff? It was kind of, the process was interesting because I sort of truly came out of nowhere, professionally speaking, with that piece. And so the word sort of got out and then people started to come and like people were flying from LA or whatever. And then like shortly after that, suddenly I started doing these general meetings. And then that sort of has continued to this day. And then like, there have been lots of like, the tricky thing is

like there've been lots of people who come to me for things. But the problem is they see a strange loop, they love a strange loop. But then I then it's like, okay, well now here in Hollywood, do this other thing. Yeah. And so then that's her and then it's like, oh, he's that black guy who wrote that thing. Wait, we have this great thing about World War II black buyer pilots who – can you do that? I'm like, have you met me? Oh, my God. I love that. Is that a real thing? Yes, I was gonna say. And there's other cool things.

We have a thing about World War II pilots, but the thing is they're black. You can write that. Yeah. And I've taken quite a lot of those kinds of meanings where it's like, where's our black lotus? Yeah. Of course.

Okay. And then the big thing I got of it was that I wrote on Boots Riley's show, I'm a Virgo. Oh, cool. I know Boots from way back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, because he had come and seen A Strange Loop when it was off Broadway. Yeah. And just to let people know the history, the gestation of A Strange Loop took, was like a decade, right? Yeah, it was longer than that. So I started working on a monologue called Why I Can't

Get Work right after I graduated from college. And that became the seed of the piece. And then I started writing music when I went to grad school. And so from then 2003 to Strangeloop was 2019. So 16 years to off Broadway and then 18 years to Broadway. I mean, that is dedication that a lot of people don't have. Yeah, and it's something I say, you know, whenever I talk to students, like art students, whatever writing students, as I'm like, it wasn't consistently like I work on other things during that time. But like, I just, for whatever reason, just decided to stay working on that

piece. Like there was something about it that I wanted to keep working on. And it was also because I was ushering on Broadway and seeing what was there. And I was like, oh, I don't do that at all. So I might as well just do what I want to do. And maybe, maybe I'll get, I could get a nice off-Broadway production somewhere. So then when I got that, that for me was what I thought was the ceiling. And it wasn't until like it got such a positive response that my producer approached me about seeing if we wanted to try for Broadway and I decided to sort of try to be more ambitious.

Have you seen its influence anywhere on any shows? Oh, yes. I mean, I won't say that its influence is on any shows I've seen, but there's certainly lots of young writers who I hear their blog lines for their musicals that all are these like meta musical, like so many things. And like, and it's funny, I actually talked to Lin-Manuel about this as he said he experienced a similar thing

with like Hamilton where, and listen, I don't have the Hamilton cloud or money or anything, but like he- None of us do. None of us do. None of us do. But he was like, oh yeah, he could see all these people trying to do these historical, revisionist things after that show. It was a real uptick. But I don't personally see the influence anywhere on Broadway or anything like that. Right. No, you probably will at some point.

It's bound to happen. Well, then I'll just call my lawyer. All right. Right after that. What's the last, or not the last, but what shows have you seen that really impressed you that you loved? Oh, Mary. Oh, Mary. Oh, Mary.

I fucking loved that. Oh, Mary. Number one. I loved it. Loved it. I've seen it six, seven times. Bob. Like it is my favorite thing. Cole is my favorite thing. Yeah, I-

All the old cast, Bianca Lee, Jane Schoen, Connor Rickamora, like all of them. Like I love it so much. It's like one of, like it, that to me, Oh Mary is like the thing that blends the old and the new with me. And so that's where I'm like, when I'm trying to throw out this comedy thing, I'm like, that does it. It's like, it's not, it's like, quote unquote, stupid, but it's not stupid, stupid. It's like, smart, stupid, but like actually kind of sophisticated. And then you add the performances and the sensibility.

And it's just the greatest thing ever. It's really, yeah. Bob Bodenkirk and his wife, Naomi, who are not theater folks at all, really, were like, you have to go see this. It's amazing. It's great. They had seen it. So they took Amber and I

and they were seeing it for their second or third time. It's so impressive. But one of the things I liked about it is it is taking the piss out of camp. And I do not like camp, I don't like that stuff. It takes the piss out of camp, and I do not like camp, I don't like that stuff. It takes the piss out of camp while also being camp. Yes. In a really smart, cool, and not in a meta way really,

but it just is. It's fully observing that character's It's so funny. And also probably the most laughs per capita at a show, at a theatrical show than I've ever had. Mary likes ice cream on her pussy. No. Yeah, I really, really enjoyed it. Every time I've seen it, I laugh in all the same places and more.

And so I just am such a huge admirer of it. It's the kind of thing I would love there to be a tradition of. Yeah. And I told Cole, I was like, I want a 22 season, 22 episode order of it right now. Like I want to see Mary Todd Lincoln in different situations. And what a crazy idea. Like all across time. Like I want to see Mary Todd Lincoln in World War II. I want to see Mary Todd Lincoln in Vietnam. I want to see Mary Todd Lincoln in space, like on Star Trek. Yeah, but you also need the character and the grounded character of Abraham Lincoln to make-

Yeah. He should also be there with her. They all should just go from era to era as themselves. I don't know about that. But yeah, I really, it's pretty great. So that's like my favorite thing. I also really liked maybe Happy Ending, Jeff was really beautiful show. Oh, I heard good things about that.

It's a really beautiful show. About the robots. The robots, yeah. What else, what else, What else? What else? I mean those are a lot of things. I mean those those are two big ones for me. Yeah, Oh Mary, I'm with you. That was and I'm so psyched it got to move to Broadway. Oh and Purpose. My friend Brandon Jacob Jenkins. His play is like really awesome. It just won the Pulitzer.

It just won the Pulitzer yesterday. Yeah. Okay, cool. Very proud of him. Yeah. All right. Well, I'll check that out. I know Brendan again through well, I know everybody in this world through my wife, who's on the board of the Soho rep. And I have a T-shirt that says board

B O R E D of the Soho rep. Love it. Love it. And Amber, I knew because I watched her as a child on General Hospital. You were both children. Yeah, I think I'm a slightly older child than her, I think. But she was a child on General Hospital and I watched it every day. The, like I have people, I have fans that kind of run a gamut of types, but I've never seen the amount of people

that you would never guess, or like, oh, I used to watch you on General Hospital. And I know a guy, friend of ours, who spent time in prison for some bad things. And he's like, oh man, when he met Amber and when I was first starting to go out with her, he was like, he had just gotten out of prison. And he was like, oh my God, you're Emily Quartermate. And so this guy was a general hospital fan. And that was a surprise. Yeah, so when I was in college, I interred all my children

and I used to, before they told me I wasn't supposed to do so I would read the fan mail. And like so many of- Wait, supposed to do this, I would read the fan mail. And like so many of the- Wait, you mean open up? I would open the fan letters. Because I thought, for some reason I thought I was supposed to do that and then distributed it to the actors in their mailboxes. What did you think that? I was an idiot and they weren't monitoring me very closely. So it was their bad.

And- I'm sorry, I'm sorry. This sounds like you just- I'm breaking the law. You created a flimsy justification of like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. This sounds like you just breaking the law. I was mail Flimsy justification of like I didn't know I wasn't supposed to do it. I was a 20 year old felon, whatever Anyway, but a lot of the mail would come from prisons Yeah, and there would be people being like dear Erica or like, you know whatever like or this story I meant a lot to me or whatever,

or a lot of the family would be like, I hate Erica's hair. Erica's hair is ruining the show. If you don't change it, I'm never gonna watch all my children ever again. So these prisoners eventually got released and got access to the internet. Well, no, these were like handwritten letters. I know what I'm saying is that's the same. Oh, got it, got it, got it to the internet. Well, no, these are like handwritten letters.

I know, what I'm saying is that's the same. Oh, got it, got it, got it, got it. It wasn't that clear. Wasn't that funny or that clear? I apologize, I'll rework it. We'll fix it up in post. You should work on it on the road. I will, yeah, that'd be great.

I'll just, in the middle of the set, go, hey guys, if you give me five minutes. I'm going to catch a rising star. And then I'll be back. I'll be right back. Yes. Then what I'll do is I'll create. Ask Mitzi to share her opinion.

I'll create a tiny catch a rising star set. And I'll walk over into it. And I'll ask six people from the audience to come up and be that audience. And then I'll work on the bit. And then you'll talk to Mitzi. But Mitzi, And then I'll. Mitzi, did I murder?

Did I murder? You know, I never passed. I didn't pass at the improv in New York. I did not pass at the Comedy Store in LA. I never passed. So you came up the hard way. Well, I didn't come up through the Comedy Store or the improv in New York. You were like Nealey O'Hara. You couldn't rely. Never mind. I don't know up through the Comedy Store or the Improv in New York. You were like Nealey O'Hara.

You couldn't rely on her. Never mind. That's a very niche reference. I'm going to leave it alone. Can you just give me a hint? Valley of the Dolls. That is niche. Yeah.

Yeah. I think my father-in-law was in Valley. Oh no, Peyton Place. Am I? Those two things aren't the same. I've never seen Peyton Place, but I've always wanted to see it. Yeah, my my father-in-law, I think he got nominated for maybe even one for that. I thought it was for West Side Story. No, no. Okay, he I don't think he he might have been nominated, but he won a Golden Globe, I think, for Pate in Place.

Isn't that like soap opera-ish? Yes, it is. It is. So, of all the things he did, so who knows where that, because I haven't seen it, but I mean he did some great stuff, so it's probably one of those things where you're like, this is what you're going to get, This is what I'm getting it for. Listen, some people who came through those shows, like did some crazy performances on them. Like I will hands down look up Judith Light on One Night to Live in 1979. That bitch

like ate that up. Yeah, yeah. I'm not denigrating soap operas. I mean, it's silly. To me, it's like the difference between a glass of fresh milk, not fresh from the cow, but a really good quality dairy from a dairy and then going to key foods and getting like the semi-skimmed 1% milk from Creamo land and then adding water to it with a and then maybe just one leaf. I have a philosophical difference with you on this, but I understand what you're saying. Yeah, I don't. Were you? Were you?

You must have been of the era then that knew of what was the, oh, what was it? We used to watch it. God, it was a real soap opera that kind of was so absurd. God. Passions. What? Say it again. Passions. Passions. that kind of was so absurd. God. Passions. What? Say it again.

Passions. Passions. Yeah, so I hated Passions because- We loved it! The doll comes to life! Yeah, so- Timmy. Timmy, who he died.

He died in like year 2000. The actor or the doll? The actor. What about the doll? Is the doll still alive? The doll lives inside our hearts. It lives in your heart, not in mine. I hated Passions because Passions replaced Another World, which was my show.

And I loved Another World. All right. So you were blinded by anger and you weren't able to see the beauty of Passions. But also, in terms of being like the crazy soap opera, that was Days of Our Lives for me. Days of Our Lives, Marlena was literally possessed by the fucking devil. I don't know any of this shit.

Marlena was possessed by the devil. Vivian buried Carly alive with a speaker in her casket so she could talk to her and torture her from above ground. Like aliens came down, like so many crazy things happened on Days of Our Lives that for me, passions- Well, that sounds like a typical day in our life. But like, as compared to passions,

I was just like, fuck off. Like you killed Rachel Corey and all my people. Well, passions didn't do it. You killed all my friends. It wasn't passions that did it. You killed all my fucking friends, all my friends, I murdered all my friends on another world to pay it way for the fucking doll like I was pissed and I never watched so good It was so bad. I mean it was hecka ba

So bad, it was good It was terrible. I already had that I already had that with days for our lives I I understand now that you're telling me about it with like somebody being buried alive was good It might had a clone Riva died and Josh was so upset that he went to a scientist to clone his dead wife And then she lived in the house and then Riva came back because the fans hated the clone They had the clone age rapidly and die The scientist who has the ability to clone a human being

Lit was down the street in in the what cul-de-sac or wherever they yeah, where is this what Springfield? No, but what's the name of the guiding light guiding light? There's a guiding light above us and it shines around your head. There's a guiding light below us. If you see it, then you're dead. You're dead. You're dead. Believe me when I tell you you're dead. That's the guiding light.

That was the theme song. Well, that's why I submitted that and they said no, thank you. But then they released a disco remix. Yes, they it was the B side to a fifth of Beethoven. Yes, it was the B-side to A Fifth of Beethoven. Michael what you're a theater guy, what do you think of this lighting that they've chosen? It used to be purple and then they switched up to orange. I like it. It's a little David Lynchian for me.

Which is not a bad thing. Yeah. Okay. Do you want to see the purple? Sure. Nicole? Give me one second. And this this is this case these were orders from These were orders from LA. Switch the goddamn planner color. Here we go. And it was... Here, toss it. Yeah.

Which purple? The top or the bottom? I think the darkest one. Darkest one. Where's the thing? It's not... Nicole, what's going on? The button isn't...

It's not... Nicole! Seriously, it's not... I mean, I've literally put it... You may have to angle it. Oh, I'm holding it the wrong way. Oh, that's... Wait, people don't like that?

I have no problem with it. I think that that's really remarkable. Yeah. You know who has... You know what? Marketing and analytics. They say purple is out? They said, uh, we can't promote the show.

Purple is for facts. Yep, that's what they said. This is always what I'm coming up against It's like homophobia that is just follows me around and Into the analytics. Yeah analytics homophobic analytics You need to keep that. That's so good. All right. You hear that, Nicole? For me.

Tell them. Tell those fuckers to fuck off. Tell LA to fuck off. Tony Award winning. Pulitzer Prize winning. Pulitzer Prize winning. Michael R. Jackson. Grammy Award losing.

Grammy Award losing. I'm a Grammy. I'm a two-time Grammy Award loser. I lost the Grammy Award to Stephen Sondheim. Well, if you're gonna lose a Grammy. And I lost the Olivier Award to Frank Lesser. You got you were nominated for an Olivier. That's great. Yeah, that's awesome.

It's very nice. Very got to go to Prince Royal Albert Hall. Did it play in the West End? Oh, no shit. Yeah. Oh, right on. Oh, that's great. That was a short run as well, but I mean, but that was, it was always going to be a limited run there. But yeah, it was really nice. We had a great production there at the Barbican. Was it the same cast? I mean, the same folks? It was all Brits, except for we brought over our Usher understudy. Did Usher. So it was like,

one American and all these Brits, and it worked. And last week I went and saw the Canadian premiere of the Strange Loop. Oh, wow. Which was wild. Like those Canadians like let their hair down. What way? They just, I think it's because they're not American, I think they're not afraid to just be stereotyped, quote unquote stereotypical and some of the parts like they just go for the the the they go for the broad comedy of it, which actually energizes it.

They're not like, I don't know. I don't know about that. I can show you recordings like they were so good. I well, I loved what I saw. No, I'm not saying it was better. I'm just saying that it was. It was gayer. It was unhinged in like a really great way. It sounds like. In the parts where it needed to be unhinged. Well, I like the hinged part. It sounds like you're saying it was gayer.

It was not gayer, but it was like. You're saying broader? And the stereotypes, yes? There was some, so for example, there was a family scene where the family, it's like Usher's sort of Tyler Perry style family scene. I fucking love that. Where they're just screaming at each other. That was my, that's where the Chateau Line is in. No, that's in writing a gospel play.

That's when he's like imitating. Oh, yes, you're right. And so there's a scene. When they're coming in in his room. There's a scene after that where they're all yelling at each other about like. Right, right. He said that.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the Canadians, like that scene could, it would be very easy for like a lot of black actors to feel like, oh, these stereotypes. Oh, but they don't know any better. So they just sort of did it full out. And it made that scene be so funny. Like it was so funny.

I'm sure it was. I'm not saying it was. I mean, the writing is funny, so. What I mean is that like, I was worried when we went to London, for example, that because it had such an American sensibility to it, that they wouldn't get it, and so they would be more withdrawn or something.

You mean the actors. Yes, but it was actually the opposite because they didn't have any sense that they needed to moderate any of the language. They just sort of leaned into it even more, which I think was helpful because the audience in general there is a different, like they have a different mindset about what was happening. And so my point is that it just really-

Yeah, their brains have been warped by, you know, free healthcare. Correct. Yeah. And so- So they see everything through the prism of- And lack of fluoride. And lack of fluoride. Well, that's what we got- It's on the way out here. Yeah. And so- So they see everything through the prism of- And lack of fluoride. And lack of fluoride. Well, that's what we got-

It's on the way out here. Yeah. But yeah, it was, anyway, my point is that it was great. It was super, I didn't know what it would be like and it was super great. Cool. Well, that must have been also a nice little treat, feather in your cup. Yeah, and I took my mom and dad with me. Nobody puts feathers in a cup What am I a feather in your hat? Feather in your cup. I don't know where that came from. Well, it's Britain. They might put right who knows with those people. They're crazy

Yeah, that must been nice. Yeah, it was cool. It was cool. It was cool Anything else? About anything. It doesn't have to be about... I feel like this is always the part where someone's like, well, you know, with everything going on. But I don't really have anything to say about that. But do you, that's not what I meant. Is there anything you'd like to, I don't know when

this will come out, but anything you'd like to plug or mention or... You've already repped Omeri and what is it? Happy ending. Maybe happy ending. And purpose. And purpose, yeah. I don't think so. I talked about complications and so.

Can we see you at Mary's Crisis anytime soon? No, I've never been. Really? I've literally never been. Oh. In all these years, I've never been to Mary's Crisis ever. Oh my God. John Roberts took me there and I was like, actually-

The Supreme Court Justice? Yes. Yes. Wow. That I would pay to see. Yeah. Lindsay Graham was there. Oh gosh. Yeah. Mike Pence was there. It was very special. No, John, do you know John Roberts?

I don't think so. He, the thing most people know him from is the voice of Linda Belcher in Bob's Burgers. He's a comic actor. He's done some great stuff and awesome guy. I went subsequently to let everybody know. So Marie's Crisis is a small piano bar in the village, gay bar, but straight friendly gay bar, but mostly piano bar where people will sing musical theater songs mostly. And the dynamic at play there is fucking fascinating to watch. People angling to be the person who sings. Because the guy sits there and he plays on the piano. It's not very big.

Yeah. I think I know somebody who plays there regularly. It's like a regular... But you have to watch the dynamic. And it's like kind of a circular... So, and it's like kind of a circular, not everybody's participating, let's say, half of the room, whatever. And again, small, it's tiny. And the guy will start playing whatever to dream the impossible dream, right? And so, you have a bunch of people who start to dream. And then eventually somebody, I don't know how it works. I don't the dynamic is fascinating to watch I don't know what the interpersonal Friendships or or you know how these people know each other but eventually someone Takes the lead and then people kind of die down and they let that person sing and I haven't there's no like

There's nothing I could see that was obvious, like a gesture or anything or stepping into something. But it's kind of like when, like a cockfight, like when the, what is the name of that thing that comes up on chickens when they're like feeling threatened? Oh, a coxcomb? Is that, I guess. I don't know. Whatever. chickens when they're like feeling threatened. Oh, somebody like a coxcomb. Is that I guess? I don't know. Whatever. Like it's like the chicken, the head chicken. Right. I'm going to sing the impossible dream. It's it is like that.

But, you know, they have to share it. There's no it's not like the the rooster is always the rooster. Like, so it was just fucking fascinating to watch. Because there's no words are spoken. I couldn't discern any kind of subtle, like it's my time and you didn't move to the center. It's just somebody would do that. And then they would do this and then the other people would die down. The closest I've come to that is there's's this game bar on the upper East side called Town House.

And there used to be a pianist there who died during COVID, but he was like the most incredible I'm sorry, could you repeat that? There was a pianist who died during COVID. A 12 inch pianist? A 12 inch pianist who died during COVID. And you could go up and sing like show tune things. I never, and I would sometimes when I would go to townhouse, I would do that.

And I always did the same thing, Bill from Show Belt. And- You didn't do your own thing. No. You didn't like sneak it in like, and try to see if anybody recognized you like, Hey, you're what, but you- No, no, no.

That's not the move. Not the move of the townhouse. And I don't know what it's like now or who the new 12 inch pianist is, but I'm more of a karaoke guy. I love musical theater, but I'm not dying to go somewhere and sing musical theater. I want to go to karaoke and sing Celebrity Skin by Hole. That and Stay by Lisa Loeb, those are my two go-to's. Ooh, Stay. Oh yes. Well, those are two very different songs.

They are. But you start strong and you finish. You say, I only hear what I want to. That's all I know. I don't listen hard. I don't pay attention to the distance that you've been running, to anyone, anywhere. I don't understand if you really can't only hear a negative. No, no, no bad.

Oh, hang on. Ethan Hawke is here. Yes. Oh my gosh. That would be so funny. Did you ever watch Reservation Dogs? I've never seen it. Great.

And I mean great, like absolute. And that's Tarantino? No. No, no. Oh, that's Reservoir Dogs. Yeah, that's Reservoir Dogs. This is a TV show about kids and people on a reservation in, I believe, Oklahoma.

And it's just a great show. Great acting, great writing, great, it's really good, great casting. But I was just going to say Ethan Hawke is in, is one in the last season and he's phenomenal, just phenomenal. phenomenal but every I mean it's I highly recommend it it's a really it's just I'm happy it's on it's one of those shows I'm like I'm happy this is here good good good no I have to check that out and I think the only other thing I wouldn't mention I mentioned to you like I'm a ghost world super fan oh Oh yeah. Like I love that movie so, so, so, so, so much.

So, so, so much. And I often, I have on my phone saved as a meme to send to people the scene, the art teacher scene with Ileana Douglas, when Enid has like the racist art up and the art teacher is like, I don't know what to say Enid. I think it's a remarkable achievement. And I send that clip to people whenever there's something that's like horrible or dumb.

Oh my God, can I have it? No. Like, but that movie like is very much, so much of my sense of humor comes from that. Like that, the irony and the sarcasm and all that. Well, so are you a Dan Close fan? So I only I only knew like I saw that movie and then I read the comic and that was all I knew of him at the time. But now he's come out with so much. So I didn't know that he'd come up with

anything else after that. And so I need to check it out. Oh, I mean, he, there's rarely an artist that can top themselves every single time, but man, his, I mean, his stuff is just so unique, spot on. And I will often, I'll say this to people who understand the reference, but I'll, almost daily, I'll pass somebody by in the street the reference, but I'll almost daily I'll pass somebody by in the street and they look like a Dan Close character.

Yeah, close Klaus Klaus. I don't know. And and oh man, so so you should so art school confident. I mean, he is the amount of stuff he's done is. Yeah, I'm like super behind on Wilson. Don't see the movie. The movie fucked up. The movie just took a really great premise and didn't do it. But Ghost World like I patients Monica.

His latest is called Monica. It's great. And these are like you can they're off. There's short filmic like they're Like you can see what kind of awesome, amazing, beautiful movie this might be. And I mean, that's for everything he's done. I mean, just like really great. Yeah, I absorbed Ghost World and Happiness and like Todd's Alarms at the same time.

Right, right. It just, it like imprinted on me in a huge way. Cause I like, Happiness is in top five for me. Yeah, great movie. I'm living in a state of irony. Oh, he did the poster for it. He did? Yes.

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. That's so funny. We've come full circle. It's a tiny circle cause we only mentioned two things, but we made a full circle. So yeah, Dan Clowes did the artwork for the poster. Oh, that makes sense because I have the screenplay for that and that makes total sense. Michael, thank you so much for coming down.

Thanks for having me. All the way from Washington Heights. In the Heights! I end every episode with a question from my daughter. So who's eight now? Okay, here's your question. Okay, Michael R Jackson, he of a strange loop. Why does each month have only 29, 30 or 31 days?

Because I said so. Okay, there you go. There you go, Marlon. You're... There you go, there's the answer. All right, thank you so much for coming down. And I can't wait truly for... I'll probably skip the opera, but for your next thing.

It's gonna be a really silly opera. I would imagine. Sense is Working Over Time is a Headgum podcast created and hosted by me, David Cross. The show is edited by Katie Skelton and engineered by Nicole Lyons with supervising producer Emma Foley. Thanks to Demi Druchen for our show art and Mark Rivers for our theme song. For more podcasts by Headgum, visit Headgum.com or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and maybe we'll read it on a future episode.

I'm not gonna do that. Thanks for listening. That was a Headgum Podcast.