Serial - The Coldest Case In Laramie - Episode 2

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

Kim talks to Shelli’s former roommate, who connects Kim with a man who was at the crime scene and has troubling memories about Fred Lamb and the police. To get full access to this show, and to other Serial Productions and New York Times podcasts on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, subscribe at nytimes.com/podcasts.To find out about new shows from Serial Productions, and get a look behind the scenes, sign up for our newsletter at nytimes.com/serialnewsletter.Have a story pitch, a tip, or feedback on our shows? Email us at [e-mail] 

These first two episodes of The Coldest Case in Laramie are free. But to hear the whole series, you'll need to subscribe to The New York Times, where you'll get access to all the serial productions and New York Times shows. And it's super easy. You can sign up through Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And if you're already a Times subscriber, just link your account and you're done. Previously, on The Coldest Case in Laramie. I just, I feel like that there could be something there, especially given like that Fred Lamb was a cop. Oh, there is something there, I'm sure.

I remember Michelle smacking me and telling me, look at those weirdos. There's my neighbors. He's a weirdo. Then it got really quiet, and it was like he was whispering in the phone, and he said, you need to pursue this. Don't stop. There's homework here.

If you guys could get me, like, if you could talk to Michelle and see if she'd talk to me. I'm sure Michelle will talk to you. All right. Can you hear me now? Oh my gosh. It's actually working. I just heard you. All right. Lori and Brandy made good on their homework. Within a day of our first conversation, Lori connected me with Shelly's old roommate, Michelle. Michelle is a striking woman. Big eyes, bigger smile. We met over Zoom. She prepared for the interview in a way I didn't. I wore a baseball

cap and soft pandemic clothes. Michelle dressed for this meeting like an important job interview in full makeup and blown out hair. She was eager to talk. How did you meet Shelly? At the restaurant. We were waitresses there. We kind of looked a little bit alike and had a lot of the same same goals you know we were both pretty good students and just we just we hit it off she was a sweet sweet sweet person we were just it was like we were a married couple but you know we're obviously two females but she we remember I remember I bought a washer and dryer she bought a stereo we had a we had milk crates for furniture you know we had our, we had milk crates for furniture. You know, we had our stuff sitting on milk crates and we just thought we were so cool. We were so poor,

but we just, we just felt like we had it all. She was, she was, was she a couple of years older than you then if you were 19? And had you waited tables before or how did you end up at fosters? They just were hiring and I went down there and thought I better find a job. It's funny because I didn't, I come from a big Spanish family, five kids, nobody's ever left home. And then I told my parents, I'm going to go away to college. And they're like, yeah, sure you are. And I, and you know, they're, you know,

a poor family and they couldn't afford to put me through college. I said, well, I'm going to move there. I'm going to get a job. And they were like, okay, good luck with that. And then come June 4th, I was, I was packed my bags. I didn't have bags. I didn't have bags. I packed my boxes full of my clothes. And I said, I'm leaving tomorrow. And my brother was like, oh my God, she's really leaving. So my dad had him drive with me and move there. And we drove into Laramie, June 4th, and it snowed. And he was like, I won't tease you if you come back home. I won't say a word. And I was like, no, I'm staying. So I applied for a job at Foster's and got hired and worked there full-time. Weird thing, I'll never forget, Big Pete from Big Pete's Welding

said, why did you move here? And I said, I came to go to college. He said, you're going to get an education, but it's not going to be at school. And I thought, what does he mean by that? Well, he wasn't kidding. That town gave me an education. I remember it so well. I remember it like it was yesterday. I stayed at my boyfriend's house, and we got in a huge fight because I wanted to go home. And I said, I want to go home. I don't feel right. Something felt weird.

And I remember it was either two or three in the morning. And he said, you can't go home now. It's middle of the night. Nothing's going to change between now and then. And I just said, something's wrong. I don't feel, I don't, I cannot describe it. And I can't tell you why. And then that morning early, I went home and it was like five or six or something. And that's how I saw the flames. I saw the apartment still burning. And when I pulled up, that's when the officer said, who are you? And I said, I live here.

And then they said, where's Shelly? And I thought, what do you mean where's Shelly? She's in the house. And I was hysterical, just going crazy. I just could never forget those words. They said, do you mean where's Shelly? She's in the house and I was hysterical, just going crazy. I just could never forget those words. They said, do you know where Shelly is? And I was just like dumbfounded. I said, what do you mean do I know where she is?

She's in the house. And I just went crazy, just went nuts. I can't imagine. No. So shortly after Shelly was killed, I met my husband, who I'm divorced with, and married him quickly. He was 10 years older than I was. He was a high school teacher and I was scared out of my mind. It was a scary time and I was just searching for comfort. And that was, you know, he was 30, I was 20 and he was a high school teacher and I thought he's not going to hurt me. And do you think that Shelly's death, I mean,

I would imagine it had everything to do with that. Oh, guarantee. Because right after, so when Shelly was killed, I was still in shock. I was so young and I was just, I didn't even call my parents when it happened until probably, you know, the next day. And I think one of the detectives said, we got to call your parents. And then my dad wanted me to move back home because he was scared and I wouldn't. And then somebody sent me, I started, I rented an apartment, a basement apartment. Fosters gave me like $600 because I didn't have any clothes. All my clothes were burnt and I didn't even have a coat. I don't even think. And so they gave me $600 so I could rent an apartment. And then somebody mailed me a card with a hundred dollar bill in it and said,

if you're smart, you'd leave town. So the detectives got the card. I called them right away because I was so scared I thought somebody's going to come for me next which nobody knew that I lived I mean I hadn't been there for more than maybe a week and so I did leave and I stayed home for a month and then I was just I felt like I was running away I thought I'll never be able to face my fears and face what happened. And I just wanted to go back to Laramie. Yeah. But that was all just so, so surreal.

That whole, you know, somebody sending me now, they think it was probably Fred that did that. You know, the detectives, but back then they didn't know. They just kind of,

I don't know, you know, all the things that he did to us while we were in that apartment. It was constant, you know, and back then it was just so, it was so strange because Lori and I laughed, not laughed, but we were talking about how I used to work graveyards. And so one time I woke up in the middle of the day and there was a mouse inside my shirt on my belly. And how does that get there? And my screens would come off of my windows all the time. And then he would say, and then I was screaming because that mouse was on my belly. I was freaking out. And he all of a sudden was at the door and was like, gee, what's wrong? What's wrong? Do you need help? I mean,

how did he know that? I think he put the mouse, I don't know, I guess I don't know that for sure, but I know for sure that he would take the screens off, ask me for help and then say, can I come in and help you put your screens on? So your screens would come off. You obviously probably wouldn't see him take the screens off, but he was always there saying, Hey, do you need help with that? Yes, yeah. Hey, I noticed your screens are off. Can I help you put your screens back on and stuff? So yeah, in hindsight now, there is, I would say I am 99.9% sure Fred Lamb murdered Shelly.

I think, you know what my gut tells me is she smoked, he smoked. I think she went out probably when she got home. She didn't smoke in the house. She went outside to smoke because I brought her, I went to Florida with my parents that June and I brought her an ashtray from Florida and that was outside all broken. And I think she was outside smoking. He probably came outside.

He probably hit on her. She told him to go pound sand. And I bet you he tried to rape her. And that's my thought. I don't know truthfully how that all happened. But I think she was outside smoking when he started talking to her. I think she probably didn't give him the time of day. He just probably was drunk and lost it. I don't know. smoking when he started talking to her I think she probably didn't give him the time of day he just

probably was drunk and lost it I don't know so the stuff about Lamb being a former cop and a former deputy you know it creates some complications I would think with the investigation like did was there some were they just like well that guy's good because he's one of us yes yes yes yep and and nobody questioned the fact that at 5 a.m he's fully dressed and that's he's not even at his house that's not his house he's at somebody else's house he's a married man there and that his truck was parked in a parking lot away running. There's a matchbook by his, by his truck. You know, nobody questioned any of those things. Nobody did.

And then lets him leave town. What was the matchbook? I hadn't heard about them. There was a thumbprint, like a bloody thumbprint on a matchbook and they found that, but they didn't investigate him, take his prints or do anything at that time. They just had that matchbook and there was a bloody thumbprint on it. They tested Lori. They tested me. They took hair samples from me, from my pubic hair, from Lori, but they didn't test Fred. And then they let him leave the very next day with all of his clothes and all of his boots and everything that was there

i just knew that they weren't looking in the right direction and they didn't have a freaking clue who did that because if they're sitting there doing all of this to us they didn't know what they were doing they had no idea the crazy thing the craziest thing of all so I've worked at the orthopedic center of the Rockies in Fort Collins for 17 years now there's a guy that works there that's a maintenance guy he's worked there for 30 years we've known each other for 17 years and when the first thing came out about Fred he had the article on his desk. And I thought, well, that's weird. Why would this guy have this article on his desk? Well, it turns out that he was the guy that found the apartment on fire, that found Shelly,

that actually knocked on Fred Lamb's door and caught Fred fully clothed at 5 a.m. And Fred wouldn't let him in his house. Fred wouldn't told him, you can't help her. I'm a police officer. You need to just leave everything alone. Wait for the fire department to come. Basically, it was trying to stop him. But how crazy that this, and I've always wondered, who was that man that helped, you know, helped us that day and tried to help Shelly? And I worked with him for 17 years. and never even knew it. It's the strangest thing. Are you okay if I record this phone call?

Yeah, I guess so. Pat Kaline, the maintenance guy, was a little more reluctant to talk than Michelle was. He felt to me like a speak-only-when-you've-got-something-to-say kind of guy. I haven't lived in the Mountain West for decades, but I'm familiar with the type. Yet when it came down to the morning Shelly was killed, Pat was full of details. Well, so me and a buddy got up early in the morning to go elk hunting, and he was running late, so I took off to run down to the fly store and drove right by the house and didn't see anything went into the fly store for just a couple minutes and picked up some stuff for lunch and turned around and was on my way back when I

went drove by the house and flames were shooting out the door. And so I flung around and pulled up in front and jumped out and went running up to the house. And right away saw Shelly in on the floor and yelled at her, and she didn't move. So I tried to get in, and I just stuck my head in the door, and my hair started singeing, just barely even getting my head in the door. I just knew there was no way I was going to get all the way in.

So I went running to the neighbors and started pounding on the door, and a guy comes to the door, and I tell him that the apartment's on fire and I need it for him to get me some towels and wet them so I can try to get in and get the girl out. He kind of, he would not move, wasn't doing anything. And i think i actually just pushed him out of the way and went ran in his house and grabbed some towels and came back and by the time i got back over the apartment my buddy had showed up and when he showed up he tried to do the same thing and uh we it was just way too hot for us to get in. So anyhow, the neighbor, which I'm sure you've heard who that is, right? Help me out here.

I'm trying to, I forgot his name. Fred Lamb. Yeah, Fred Lamb. He was just like, he was just out of it. And obviously, my adrenaline was pumping like crazy, and he wasn't moving and helping me, and I was going crazy to try to get in there. And you could literally see the flames coming out of the door. The door was open.

The window was busted out from the living room, so flames were coming out. And I don't even remember him sticking his head out the door to look over, which was just driving me crazy. And I remember standing at his door, and we could see where someone was hitting the door with a bloody hand, and then there was a big pool of blood, and then you could see where someone was hitting the door with a bloody hand. And then there was a big pool of blood. And then you could see where, obviously, she had hit the ground and then was drugged back over to her apartment.

And we were so blown away by the blood on the sidewalk that, you know, we thought it was just an innocent accident that her place got on fire and that she had gotten smoke inhalation and passed out or something, you know, that's kind of where we were at until we saw that blood and then we were like, holy shit, what the hell is going on here. This is Sarah Koenig, host of The Serial Podcast. If you're hooked on this show, and I'm guessing you are,

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It's worth it. So the fire department showed us up, and they took a statement, got our names and everything, and said that they would be in touch. So we went hunting and then came back later, and they called us and asked us to come in. So we went in, and one of the first things I told them was the neighbor, I go, you've got to check this guy out. He just seemed just guilty as hell. He knew something and would not help.

And the detective was like, you don't worry about him. He's a police officer, and you don't need to worry about him. And when they told me that, I just came unglued. I was like, what the hell are you talking about? That makes it even worse that he never even stepped out of his apartment, that he couldn't come over and help me if you tell him he's a cop so I was just livid and they they calmed me down and so we talked about you know everything and then that's when they told me that um she had already she was already dead when I saw her um which me and my buddy both didn't have a clue of that. We thought she might be still alive, and we couldn't get in to get her,

so it was just killing us all day long. But anyhow, that's, I mean, I don't know if you guys, and that's pretty much all I know. Well, let me, I'm letting you just talk. Let me ask you a few follow-up questions. Do you remember talking about the guy? Do you remember having that conversation, like what a strange encounter? Yeah, I mean, that was the first place I was going with those when the detectives were talking to me that night. And did you hear anything from them after that? I don't think we did. I don't remember

them contacting us until, holy cow, what was it? 20 some years later when Terry opened it back up again. What do you think about that? Well, actually, now that you ask it, it seems awfully strange. I just, I mean, I always thought that was always just so weird. Although, you know, they came out in the papers, and I remember them saying, you know,

they thought it was a truck driver and this and that. And we always would talk and wonder who the heck it could have been and just figured it was like the police were saying that they thought it was a passerby, you know, someone traveling through, and they were gone. But I still, you know, I never did get any answers. Yeah. And here we are.

You know, and that was just absolutely so maddening for, you know, Michelle and I that, you know, Detective Terry told us a lot of the stuff that he had. And it's like, holy cow, man, this almost seems like an open and closed case. And then the paper even put in his statement that, yeah, yeah, I did. Do you remember how he worded that? It was like, yeah, yeah, I did. Do you remember how he worded that? It was like, yeah, yeah, I did. Saying that I did this wouldn't, like, yeah, what was it exactly? Let me find it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did this. Something like that. Yeah, his lawyer argued that he was browbeaten. That he was what? Brow beaten because he, like, that he was, you know, an old man who was diabetic, was hungry, and didn't understand, you know, was talked to for seven hours. And so, you know, basically, all this stuff was taken out of context. Oh. Yeah.

I didn't hear any of that. Yeah. Okay. This is what it says in the story from the boomerang. According to the documents, during a police interview, Lamb initially denied the homicide allegation, but later said, quote, Fred Lamb did it, dot, dot, dot. I'm not denying that I did it, end quote, end quote. And, quote, bottom line is, I killed a girl, unquote, the document states.

Lamb consistently denied remembering the crime itself. Wow. Yes. That's why, you know, this came out just a while after we had met with Terry and we were all like, yes, this is going to be over in no time, and in nothing. Yeah. There wasn't a whole lot more reporting

I could do for my apartment in Brooklyn. Police reports, court filings, none of that was online. Neither were the news reports from back in in Brooklyn. Police reports, court filings, none of that was online. Neither were the news reports from back in the day. But lucky for me, it was March 2021, and the vaccines were rolling out in New York. The country was starting to open up again. So first stop is vaccine and then Laramie, right? Directly.

Directly. Vaccine. I had a little vacation time. Two parents who lived across the country who I hadn't seen in more than a year. I figured I'd pack up my dog Lucy, grab my friend Jasmine, and go on a road trip. Make a pit stop in Laramie. Poke around a little. See what I could see. What do you think, Lucy? What do you think?

That's one very concerned bulldog. Yeah, that's a very concerned bulldog. Yeah, okay. So I think I can just go like this.